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ZeroZen
10-23-2009, 01:20 AM
For NASA, Possible Shifts in Direction

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By KENNETH CHANG
Published: October 22, 2009

Setting the stage for a major overhaul of the nation’s human spaceflight program, a blue-ribbon panel said Thursday that the National Aeronautics and Space Administration should consider scrapping the rocket it had been developing to replace the space shuttles and bypassing the Moon for now.

In a 157-page report titled “Seeking a Human Spaceflight Program Worthy of a Great Nation,” most of the options proposed by the 10-member panel turn to private companies to provide astronauts with the ride to low-Earth orbit and replace Moon landings with the “flexible path” approach — flybys of the Moon and Mars and visits to asteroids and deep-space locales that do not require development of complicated landers.

“It seems to us that would be a more sensible program,” the panel’s chairman, Norman R. Augustine, said in a news conference.

In response to a question, Mr. Augustine agreed that the rocket under development, the Ares I, was not the right one for NASA and that it was not going to the right place. “I would say that’s a fair portrayal,” he said.

The panel’s report does not provide many surprises beyond what was discussed in a series of hearings over the summer and an executive summary released last month, but explains the panel’s reasoning in greater detail. It also concluded that NASA would not be able to push beyond low-Earth orbit without a budget increase of about $3 billion a year. The agency is “at a tipping point,” the report said, “primarily due to a mismatch of goals and resources.”

“Either additional funds need to be made available,” it went on, “or a far more modest program involving little or no exploration needs to be adopted.”

Beyond dissatisfaction with NASA’s current course, the Obama administration has given little indication which options it might choose, whether it would support a budget increase for NASA or even when it will decide.

“Against a backdrop of serious challenges with the existing program, the Augustine committee has offered several key findings and a range of options for how the nation might improve its future human space flight activities,” said a White House spokesman, Nicholas S. Shapiro. “We will be reviewing the committee’s analysis, and then ultimately the president will be making the final decisions.”

In an interview on Wednesday with The Huntsville Times in Alabama, the NASA administrator, Charles F. Bolden Jr., said he planned to meet with President Obama by the end of the year to present the agency’s views on what it should be doing.

Under NASA’s current plans, developed after the loss of the shuttle Columbia in 2003, the remaining three space shuttles are to be retired next year after completion of the International Space Station. A new series of rockets is supposed to return astronauts to the Moon by 2020.

For NASA to continue operating the space station through 2020, five years longer than currently planned, and still reach the Moon, the current program would require $159 billion from 2010 to 2020, the panel calculated, far more than the $100 billion that the current budget guidance from the Obama administration lays out.

The panel said $100 billion was too little for any plausible push out of Earth orbit, but it said other possibilities were feasible if financing were raised to $128 billion over the next decade.

A prototype of the Ares I is on the launching pad at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida, scheduled to lift off on Tuesday morning. That test flight, with a less-powerful first stage and a dummy second stage, was devised to gather data to aid in refining the design.

The full rocket and the astronaut-carrying capsule on top are not scheduled to begin operation until March 2015. Because of NASA’s budget constraints, the panel predicted that the date of the first flight would very likely slip two years.

The panel did not call Ares I an engineering failure but rather more a casualty of changing circumstances and of budgets one-third smaller than originally planned for. “With time and sufficient funds, NASA could develop, build and fly the Ares I successfully,” the panel wrote. “The question is, Should it?”

Because of the delays, the Ares I may be too late for one of its primary tasks: ferrying astronauts to and from the space station. Its defenders point to its simple design, arguing that it will be far safer than earlier rockets.

While agreeing that the Ares I’s simplicity was an asset, the panel was unconvinced that the rocket would be markedly safer than competing concepts that similarly consist of a reliable booster and a crew capsule with a launching escape system. Further, the planned launching rate for the Ares I is no more than two a year, “raising questions about the sustainability of safe operations,” the panel said.

The panel did not call for throwing away all of the development work for Ares I. Among other options explored, the panel was more favorable toward NASA’s developing the Ares V Lite. Currently, the Ares I is to complemented by a heavy-lift rocket, the Ares V. The Ares V Lite would be a smaller version, using the solid rocket booster developed from the Ares I.

The panel also discussed developing a heavy-lift rocket based on rockets currently used by the Air Force to lift satellites or one based more closely on the space shuttle design.

Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/science/space/23nasa.html)


Oh no!!! here we go again. This is national priority for our nation's continuity for manned access space flight. The money should be not an issue regarding to the human curiousity towards the heavens. I'm against scrapping it unless they have a new design to propose.

Zarak
10-23-2009, 01:23 AM
Yeah, lets just eliminate our space program entirely so we have more welfare money to give to crackheads in Detroit.

void
10-23-2009, 01:33 AM
Yeah, lets just eliminate our space program entirely so we have more welfare money to give to crackheads in Detroit.

Dont you mean crackheads on Wallstreet?

Shurik SST
10-23-2009, 01:50 AM
Dont you mean crackheads on Wallstreet?

Those are cokeheads, not crackheads. Huge diff.

Universal_Soldier
10-23-2009, 01:55 AM
Those are cokeheads, not crackheads. Huge diff.

LOL....cokeheads = Rich bastards; Crackheads = Homeless

Yea big difference

vryhpyammoadded
10-23-2009, 02:18 AM
Ummm crack daddy, the dope pushing nanny state. You want entitlements, we got entitlements, just gimmie the kickbacks and vote me in office and I’ll give you the sweet taste of someone else’s great grand kid’s money!

Yeh, sucks all around what they are getting away with in DC, now NASA’s going to get pilfered to buy these scumbags office next election go around.

Elbs
10-23-2009, 02:24 AM
New rimz for the whip and more food stamps will surely help keep America at the forefront of technological achievement well into this century.

stop hating guise!

JJC
10-23-2009, 02:28 AM
Maybe NASA does need a little shake up?

ZeroZen
10-23-2009, 02:32 AM
Maybe NASA does need a little shake up?

You mean a massive shake up rocket in their azz including the white house panels...

void
10-23-2009, 02:50 AM
Maybe NASA does need a little shake up?

The problem as I see it isnt NASA, the problem is that the administrations who sit in Washington do not have a coherent idea of what NASA should be doing, and do not have a realistic funding plan for what ideas they DO come up with.

If the government set NASA a coherent and consistent goal with the appropriate level of funding, Im sure NASA could accomplish the task.

Jack Daniels
10-23-2009, 03:09 AM
It is sad that our world spends so much money on the military and so little on Space and other important things like that.
I can only wonder where our race would be if we'd spend trillion of dollars on Space exploration...

Shurik SST
10-23-2009, 03:27 AM
LOL....cokeheads = Rich bastards; Crackheads = Homeless

Yea big difference

Exactly! p-)

eskachig
10-23-2009, 05:06 AM
I actually really like the idea of ditching planetfall and concentrating on asteroids. The potential for resources is damn near limitless, and it might get the private industry involved in a more comprehensive fashion.

Noble713
10-23-2009, 09:22 AM
Ummm crack daddy, the dope pushing nanny state. You want entitlements, we got entitlements, just gimmie the kickbacks and vote me in office and I’ll give you the sweet taste of someone else’s great grand kid’s money!

Yeh, sucks all around what they are getting away with in DC, now NASA’s going to get pilfered to buy these scumbags office next election go around.


Man, this makes me think of the fictional Republic of Haven:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_Haven

During its first centuries of existence, the Republic of Haven was one of the most prosperous human worlds in the galaxy, and was viewed as a sort of "interstellar Athens." Considering the poverty of its less favored citizens an aberration in light of Haven's prosperity, the Havenite government launched welfare measures which, after a few centuries, became a caricature of a welfare state where citizens were entitled without exception to a specified standard of living adjusted for inflation. It did not matter whether these citizens wanted to work or not, and by the time of the First Haven-Manticore War, more than half of Haven's population was on the dole; these were the so-called "Dolists".

A breed of machine politicians, called Dolist Managers, emerged as kingmakers, being able to deliver the votes of millions of Dolists to the candidates (called Legislaturalists) of their choosing. The Havenite democracy disappeared, and power was concentrated within the Legislaturalist families, who established a number of secret police organizations to maintain control over the renamed People's Republic of Haven. The original Havenite constitution was replaced by a new document which enshrined Legislaturalist rule. This constitution was the first step of the so-called "DuQuesne Plan", named after the Havenite politician who proposed it.

To support its welfare state, the government spent at a deficit for over 200 years. To sustain its economy, it needed to conquer weaker planets — the second step of the DuQuesne Plan — and plunder them. Eventually, it built up an empire of over a hundred worlds. Unfortunately, this caused imperial overreach: Haven could not support the economies of so many planets — whose inhabitants eventually fell into the Havenite economic system — without continuous conquest.

Looks like we are at the end of Phase 1/beginning of Phase 2 in a similar process, where the successful economy turns into a welfare state.

seraosha
10-23-2009, 09:28 AM
I actually really like the idea of ditching planetfall and concentrating on asteroids. The potential for resources is damn near limitless, and it might get the private industry involved in a more comprehensive fashion.

I agree. But without a place to process those resources in a low to zero gravity industrial plant, that means dropping them onto Earth to be refined, and we don't need to list all the things wrong with that scenario.

Moon base is the first step, and Ares is our ticket there.

Chulo
10-23-2009, 09:51 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_Haven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Haven)

.
LOL.. a Honor Harrington fan. :P While it does kinda seem like it, if you really want a parallel read "Road to Damascus" By John Ringo (BOLO series) Free ebook here (http://www.webscription.net/p-355-the-road-to-damascus.aspx)

As for the White House, im sure they realized they need to find money somewhere to pay off all the entitlement programs to pay off the votes they bought.

deathil93
10-23-2009, 11:08 AM
The entire space shuttle replacement program is stupid, its a HUGE step backwards.
The space shuttle was the biggest jump in human space flight since the gemini and apollo and mercury missions, copying them and making them a little bigger with more advanced tech is just a useless waste of money.

Mu-Meson
10-23-2009, 11:44 AM
I wonder how many years NASA could have been run on the amount of money wasted with the stimulus? So instead of landing a man on Mars, there are snowmakers in Duluth, and golf courses in Arizona. Score.


LOL.. a Honor Harrington fan. :P While it does kinda seem like it, if you really want a parallel read "Road to Damascus" By John Ringo (BOLO series) Free ebook here (http://www.webscription.net/p-355-the-road-to-damascus.aspx)

A Weber AND Ringo fan? +1

2495
10-23-2009, 12:03 PM
I actually really like the idea of ditching planetfall and concentrating on asteroids. The potential for resources is damn near limitless, and it might get the private industry involved in a more comprehensive fashion.

Moon = Helium3.

The country that mines and returns that first are the new trillionaires of the 21st century and beyond.

Moon mining is vital to Earth's future, and mankinds space fairing ventures.

seraosha
10-23-2009, 12:17 PM
Moon = Helium3.

The country that mines and returns that first are the new trillionaires of the 21st century and beyond.

Moon mining is vital to Earth's future, and mankinds space fairing ventures.

Mining the regolith for H3 is do-able, but without H2O allready being present, the task of long term inhabitation becomes harder...and since it looks like water is already there, why are we ****ing around with Mars?

Getting to the Moon, building industry, long term habitation...then use it as a launchpad for the rest of the Solar System. It just seems so logical to me, I don't know what else to say about it.

vryhpyammoadded
10-23-2009, 12:32 PM
Man, this makes me think of the fictional Republic of Haven:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_Haven


Looks like we are at the end of Phase 1/beginning of Phase 2 in a similar process, where the successful economy turns into a welfare state.
Love the Honorverse and a big fan of the Codominion books too which feature similar politics.

kalerab
10-23-2009, 12:37 PM
Getting to the Moon, building industry, long term habitation...then use it as a launchpad for the rest of the Solar System. It just seems so logical to me, I don't know what else to say about it.

Politics rather spend money to military industry or populistic programs which will bring them support than to Moon program which is just so far away for them (read beyond their mandate). We actually wasted last 30 years of space program, if the space race would continue I´m sunbathing 24/7 in Mars crater while drinking *** on the beach made on one of Jupiters moons.

2495
10-23-2009, 12:39 PM
Mining the regolith for H3 is do-able, but without H2O allready being present, the task of long term inhabitation becomes harder...and since it looks like water is already there, why are we ****ing around with Mars?

Getting to the Moon, building industry, long term habitation...then use it as a launchpad for the rest of the Solar System. It just seems so logical to me, I don't know what else to say about it.

Agreed 100%. Low gravity, fuel, water, materials.. easy launch and recover.. colonisation of the moon is vital for mankinds survival.

bono
10-23-2009, 09:35 PM
In a way you have a good point. My first reaction was that posters do not realize that propulsion technology has'nt moved much since the 1930s when Robert Goddard and Nazi scientists figured out how to mix aluminium with some fast reacting oxidant.

However, unless we cut our ties with space shuttle, we will never move beyond old rocket technology. The recent Vasimir engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Specific_Impulse_Magnetoplasma_Rocket)shows one route to future propulsion methods, but its creation is the work of two former NASA scientists completely frustrated with NASA bureaucrats.

NASA has one clear objective, to explore space using latest technology. Unfortunately its often run by political appointees with little knowledge or interest in developing revolutionary space faring technologies.

NASA needs a thorough shakeup. This report will force NASA to do more, a lot more,with same amount of resources. NASA should be the hotbed of mad rocket scientists, instead it is wasting its time hiring mediocre talent.


The entire space shuttle replacement program is stupid, its a HUGE step backwards.
The space shuttle was the biggest jump in human space flight since the gemini and apollo and mercury missions, copying them and making them a little bigger with more advanced tech is just a useless waste of money.

Nano
10-24-2009, 02:29 AM
NASA needs a thorough shakeup. This report will force NASA to do more, a lot more,with same amount of resources. NASA should be the hotbed of mad rocket scientists, instead it is wasting its time hiring mediocre talent.

Those guys exist they just work for the other agencies or what I call PMG-COops.(Private Military Government Cooperatives)Who would have thought the mad scientists like to make things that ultimately go boooommm.

annihilation
10-24-2009, 11:14 AM
Can NASA then go to the white house and tell them to scrape the national health care? Seriously why does NASA always seem to be the red headed step child here. Its the one few programs that benefits us all.

bono
10-24-2009, 07:55 PM
NASA needs exceptional talent because the unique, ultra-complex problems related to the space program cannot be solved by reading Physics books and trying to apply what your MIT professor taught you. You cannot imagine up radical new propulsion methods if your "brilliance" is limited to existing materials and existing designs.

NASA needs the guys with that extra dimension that only belongs to the fringe in any field. It should hire from all over the world. NASA needs the extra brilliant fringe, the almost crazy brilliance of those who refuse to accept the physcis textbook as gospel. You cannot discover that brilliance just by verbal interviews and looking at MIT/Caltech transcripts.

NASA has recently started looking for this fringe brilliance by holding competitions to find the true brilliance. This is the right way to go.

NASA Selects 18 University Proposals for Steckler Space Grants (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2009/oct/HQ_09-244_Edu_Steckler_Grants.html)
Teams Win at NASA National Lunar Robotics Competition (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2009/oct/HQ_09-245_Regolith_winners.html)
NASA Announces Awards For Future Astrophysics Suborbital Flights (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2009/sep/HQ_09_220_Future_Astro_Subflights.html)






Those guys exist they just work for the other agencies or what I call PMG-COops.(Private Military Government Cooperatives)Who would have thought the mad scientists like to make things that ultimately go boooommm.

manberries
10-24-2009, 08:53 PM
It is sad that our world spends so much money on the military and so little on Space and other important things like that.
I can only wonder where our race would be if we'd spend trillion of dollars on Space exploration...


Except for that fact that almost all of the technology that put a rocket into space came from the military. You know, rockets, explosives, guidance systems, advanced metallurgy, composite materials, closed oxygen systems, etc. Fact is the military is the cause for many inventions, and the cause for their practical development. Sure the computer was not invented in an army lab, but it sure as hell was made useful by the Bismark and US Iowa class BB.

bono
10-24-2009, 10:39 PM
Military is not the cause, military makes governments loosen their purse strings. Almost every new technology has DARPA finger in it.


Except for that fact that almost all of the technology that put a rocket into space came from the military. You know, rockets, explosives, guidance systems, advanced metallurgy, composite materials, closed oxygen systems, etc. Fact is the military is the cause for many inventions, and the cause for their practical development. Sure the computer was not invented in an army lab, but it sure as hell was made useful by the Bismark and US Iowa class BB.

Lemonz
10-24-2009, 11:37 PM
the future of exploration lies in the hand of the private sector anyway.