View Full Version : Germanys new Minister of Defence: Karl Theodor zu Guttenberg
usedtobe_2T046B5
10-23-2009, 06:22 PM
Germanys former Minister of Economic Affairs will be the next Minister of Defence
I just heard about that in the news.
Any further infomations?
Whats your oppinion about that?
Does he have any experiences?
Is he able to make decisions in purpose of the german Bundeswehr?
Fuschimuschi
10-23-2009, 06:26 PM
He doesn't really have any experience but he's been hyped to no end recently.
Just read that our new minister of health is a former combat medic who aquired his doctorate in the military hospital in Hamburg.
Zarak
10-23-2009, 06:28 PM
The Baron seems like a pretty smart guy and has a history as a proponent of German-American cooperation and criticizing the far-left. Also he looks like a young Val Kilmer.
tluassa
10-23-2009, 06:38 PM
http://blog.tagesschau.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/gutten2.jpg
I kind of like this image :)
"Freiherr zu Guttenberg" on Times Square ... :)
usedtobe_2T046B5
10-23-2009, 06:41 PM
He doesn't really have any experience but he's been hyped to no end recently.
Just read that our new minister of health is a former combat medic who aquired his doctorate in the military hospital in Hamburg.
Isn't that the Vietnamese(not meant offensive) guy from the FDP? Dr Philipp Rösler?
Kitsune
10-23-2009, 06:59 PM
Isn't that the Vietnamese(not meant offensive) guy from the FDP? Dr Philipp Rösler?
Rösler was born in Vietnam but grew up in Germany. He is an orphan of war, which was adopted by German parents - apparently they decided to adopt an Vietnamese child instead of a German one to help a bit (so to speak). In an interview he appeared to me as a quite impressive guy, and the best one I can see with the Liberals at present. I can only hope that this minister post helps him on the way up (and not down - minister of health is a damn difficult job in our country). Perhaps we even see the day on which Rösler dethrones Westerwelle. For that, he would have my vote even today. p-)
usedtobe_2T046B5
10-23-2009, 07:05 PM
Seems like a new gerneration of "young" politicians is about to adopt the ministries.
I'm very happy with it.
Kitsune
10-23-2009, 07:12 PM
Yeah, but I am not happy about the specific ministeries the FDP has got at all. Economy, Foreign, Health, Justice and that idiotic one for Foreign Development Help. The Foreign Ministry might be prestigious - and a FDP tradition - but I would prefer to see some liberal policy done in Germany to Westerwelle jetting around the world. Essentially, only the Ministry for Economy is interesting, the rest is not. Something like Economy, Education and Defence might have been a better (and more daring) choice. But apparently the Liberals are already beginning to fall back into their old behavioural patterns. :(
tluassa
10-23-2009, 07:35 PM
Isn't that the Vietnamese(not meant offensive) guy from the FDP? Dr Philipp Rösler?
Who is a promising candidate, since he is now in charge of the field that was his job before. He replaces a leftist failure by the way - Ulla Schmidt :)
"In 1976 she was a candidate of the Maoist "Kommunistischer Bund Westdeutschland" (KBW) (Communist League of West Germany) for the Federal Assembly of Germany (Bundestag) in Aachen. The KBW dissolved completely in 1985."
:)
b0sco
10-23-2009, 07:42 PM
King Tiger for the win!
http://i37.tinypic.com/v59y1f.jpg
usedtobe_2T046B5
10-23-2009, 07:42 PM
"In 1976 she was a candidate of the Maoist "Kommunistischer Bund Westdeutschland" (KBW) (Communist League of West Germany) for the Federal Assembly of Germany (Bundestag) in Aachen. The KBW dissolved completely in 1985."
disgusting.....
Who is a promising candidate, since he is now in charge of the field that was his job before. He replaces a leftist failure by the way - Ulla Schmidt :)
He probably has a good future if he doesn't fail. How old is he? 36?!
tluassa
10-23-2009, 08:25 PM
disgusting.....
He probably has a good future if he doesn't fail. How old is he? 36?!
Same goes for "zu Guttenberg" ...
My impression: zu Guttenberg is clearly influenced by his family status and rank, however he somehow kept the connection to a "normal" life (maybe because he married a good wife :) ?! or he is simply not the type of typical "aristrocat" that one expects ?
When I first saw Rösler in an Interview some years ago on Phoenix, he described his experience as a Vietnamese guy growing up in a german "downtown" area :) When he was asked how his outer appearance affected his "career", he said "I did not have big problems, because in other kids really thought I was a Kung-Fu champion ^^ In highschool he said his outer looks didnt matter that much among other pupils . - after that moment I directly started to liked him :9 - PS: he joined the FDP the year the made his "Abitur", one more thing that connects us.
Difool
10-24-2009, 02:35 AM
I've met Mr. Guttenberg half a year ago and heard him speaking. He's very smart, sympathic and a really great speaker.
It's a very promising politician the people tend to trust.
I'm just not sure if this job might be bad for his career at this time.
happyslapper
10-24-2009, 05:55 AM
Can any Germans (or anyone else) briefly say what significance this appointment might hold for the German Afghan commitment? Cheers.
Mackie
10-24-2009, 06:19 AM
Nothing official but the number of 1500 more soldiers is in the media.
Edit: Or even 2500 more. The US wants 7000 and our government will offer 6000. So maybe 6500.
Sorry, you guys are behaving like a weird mixture of US forum rednecks (Ulla Schmidt was just incompetent, had nothing to do with Maoism) and Obama fanboys (Guttenberg isn't the messiah, sorry).
Guttenberg will have to make do with less money than Jung had, no matter how good he is.
Also there's the risk that he's trying to be foreign minister instead of Westerwelle and will sideline the military matters in favor of NATO politics.
He's a foreign policy expert after all, not a defense expert. Ok, Jung was a wine expert...
Also, Jung as minister of labor is a really bad choice, the office is too important for Jung. Why didn't he get foreign aid ministry? That is about the only ministry I would have given him...
Can't say anything about Rösler, maybe those in Niedersachsen can.
Redox
10-24-2009, 07:03 AM
Also there's the risk that he's trying to be foreign minister instead of Westerwelle and will sideline the military matters in favor of NATO politics.
He's a foreign policy expert after all, not a defense expert.
One can just hope that Guttenberg takes over some of the foreign policy tasks from Westerwelle. Westerwelle is just an embarrassement in this role.
Westerwelle should have done something like economy or finance. Guttenberg is wasted as defence minister. And Jung is a joke anyway.
Just because of this stupid party politics were are stuck with more or less incompetent people doing the wrong jobs.
It was kind of revealing that Westerwelle at the coalition press conference was talking more about the next state parliament elections than about actual political content.
All in all the start of the new coalition was quite disappointing for me, and my expectations were not high from the beginning.
Westerwave - no one can reach me the water
:)
Can any Germans (or anyone else) briefly say what significance this appointment might hold for the German Afghan commitment? Cheers.In short teams: Baron zu Guttenberg is a firm supporter of the Afghanistan deployment and he has made his mark as Germany's strong man in transatlantic relations. He favours a strong alliance between Germany and the United States and believes into NATO as a tool for successful peace enforcement.
His situation is grim. The military is overstretched and the funds are shrinking but I do really think that he might have the chance to improve a lot. Of course he cannot magically turn dirt into gold but he is one of the few politicians actually trying this against all odds.
The most important aspect for my feelings is that he made a choice. With military and war absolutely unpopular in Germany, the post of Minister for Defence is also called "the ejector seat in the cabinet". Over the years, few of the candidates did really volunteer for it.
One a sidenote: it's fvcking annoying that outgoing Minister of Defence the paly Mr. Jung will still belong to the new government.
Actually my sympathies for Guttenberg have risen since he accepted defense.
I mean as you said it is the ejection seat of the government and usually assigned to political lightweights or at least people who are not supposed to have any future in german politics.
Guttenberg takes a chance with that. He might simply fail and be forgotten, but if he succeeds he might become a conservative Schmidt.
Schmidt is AFAIK the only german politician who ever managed to make something out of his tenure as defense minister.
So even if the defense budget is strained, the MoD now has a minister who is doomed to be successful. Guttenberg has to do something, in contrary to Jung.
Re Jung, he's Koch's man in Berlin and since Koch himself is rather minister-president than minister, Jung's going to stay. All other options for a hessian in Berlin are limited because those hessian CDU politicians that are competent (Banzer) are not loyal to Koch and those that are loyal are even less competent than Jung ;)
But why such an important post as labour? Why not agriculture?
What surprised me was that Oettinger went to Brussels. Stoiber, ok, this man had no more political future in german politics but Oettinger? Did Merkel successfully eliminate him politically?
Redox
10-24-2009, 08:02 AM
The most important aspect for my feelings is that he made a choice. With military and war absolutely unpopular in Germany, the post of Minister for Defence is also called "the ejector seat in the cabinet". Over the years, few of the candidates did really volunteer for it.
According to a TV commentator he would have preferred economy, but that was reserved for FDP - Brüderle. Party politics again.
According to Spiegel Merkel allowed him to choose between Ministry of Interior and Defence. As Interior Minister you wont become popular for sure, so I guess it was just the logical choice with regard to his possible future ambitions.
Btw, if true very smart move by Merkel restricting him to Defence or Interior. Seems she is already wary of his rising popularity...
but Oettinger? Did Merkel successfully eliminate him politically? Seems like it. She is more powerful within her party than ever. She does not take any chances if something could endanger her power. Unfortunatly that also means she plays it safe with political decions. I dont think one can expect big changes from her.
Macs.
10-24-2009, 08:20 AM
What surprised me was that Oettinger went to Brussels. Stoiber, ok, this man had no more political future in german politics but Oettinger? Did Merkel successfully eliminate him politically?
Öttinger is a scumbag of the highest order. That guy is horrible, I really hope that Merkel is ejecting him into whatever officer where he hasn't much to say.
Öttinger is a scumbag of the highest order. That guy is horrible, I really hope that Merkel is ejecting him into whatever officer where he hasn't much to say.
EU commissioner. Actually quite a powerful office, just not within germany.
How powerful exactly depends on the exact post, of course.
And usually people who go to the EU never come back to german politics.
You guys seem to forget that it never was about skills and experience when it comes to appointing ministers...
Silent Reader
10-24-2009, 09:16 AM
You guys seem to forget that it never was about skills and experience when it comes to appointing ministers...
i think everyone is aware of that... but skills and experience are a nice bonus to have.
tluassa
10-24-2009, 09:40 AM
In short teams: Baron zu Guttenberg is a firm supporter of the Afghanistan deployment and he has made his mark as Germany's strong man in transatlantic relations. He favours a strong alliance between Germany and the United States and believes into NATO as a tool for successful peace enforcement.
His situation is grim. The military is overstretched and the funds are shrinking but I do really think that he might have the chance to improve a lot. Of course he cannot magically turn dirt into gold but he is one of the few politicians actually trying this against all odds.
The most important aspect for my feelings is that he made a choice. With military and war absolutely unpopular in Germany, the post of Minister for Defence is also called "the ejector seat in the cabinet". Over the years, few of the candidates did really volunteer for it.
One a sidenote: it's fvcking annoying that outgoing Minister of Defence the paly Mr. Jung will still belong to the new government.
Muck, that may go for the "weak" types of defense ministers we had ... (anyone remember Rudolf Sharping :) :) Whenever we had a Defense Minister with balls, he could very well get popular and build a character on this office (see F.J. Strauss :) )
i think everyone is aware of that... but skills and experience are a nice bonus to have.
Guttenberg has these. he was an expert on defense and foreign relations before they gave him the his last post.
on the other hand, jung has been in the bundeswehr, while Struck wasn't and who of both was the better defense minister?
According to a TV commentator he would have preferred economy, but that was reserved for FDP - Brüderle. Party politics again.Zu Guttenberg is a foreign affairs politician by profession and there's no reason why he should have preferred economics instead.
Bohemoth
10-25-2009, 02:53 AM
Although zu Guttenberg would be a better Secretary of State than the Anglo-phobic and openly homo****** Westerwelle, it's still better this way. Just imagine the gay Westerwelle as Secretary of Defense. rofl
Difool
10-25-2009, 03:14 AM
Although zu Guttenberg would be a better Secretary of State than the Anglo-phobic and openly homo****** Westerwelle, it's still better this way. Just imagine the gay Westerwelle as Secretary of Defense. rofl
Don't laugh. Such things are not unlikely in today's Germany.
Although zu Guttenberg would be a better Secretary of State than the Anglo-phobic and openly homo****** Westerwelle, it's still better this way. Just imagine the gay Westerwelle as Secretary of Defense. roflI honestly don't know what the problem is. The troops wished for someone who would not only administer them but would add weight to them and promote their achievements all around the world. Westerwelle's FDP party is pro-military and he himself is an outspoken supporter of the war in Afghanistan.
Bohemoth
10-25-2009, 08:53 AM
Don't laugh. Such things are not unlikely in today's Germany.
True, Mr. Wowereit, the Mayor of Berlin, is also openly homo******.
Do we Germans become a dying breed or what? I mean the birth rate has been declining for decades already anyways. This is soo wrong.
tluassa
10-25-2009, 09:00 AM
At least thats a thing everybody can "work" on ;)
And dont spoil my fantasies of a free Autobahn ;)
Technically speaking, homo******ity were to be blamed for this development. Practically, we have too few homo******s so they could really be the cause.
I don't give a crap about a politician's ****** orientation. The only aspect of interest is their work and as for that, Mr. Westerwelle has turned into a respectable man whilst Mr. Wowereit is a total douchebag. If he run for chancellery in 2013 that would be a first class whiskey tango foxtrott situation.
So a social democrat is automatically a douchebag?
Seems you're immitating US republicans too much.
LineDoggie
10-25-2009, 09:13 AM
http://blog.tagesschau.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/gutten2.jpg
I kind of like this image :)
"Freiherr zu Guttenberg" on Times Square ... :)Looks like David Letterman without the gap tooth smile
Difool
10-25-2009, 09:20 AM
Technically speaking, homo******ity were to be blamed for this development. Practically, we have too few homo******s so they could really be the cause.
I don't give a crap about a politician's ****** orientation. The only aspect of interest is their work and as for that, Mr. Westerwelle has turned into a respectable man whilst Mr. Wowereit is a total douchebag. If he run for chancellery in 2013 that would be a first class whiskey tango foxtrott situation.
Our squirrel (translation of the name Wowereit:)) attends to every party and show in Berlin while the financial situation of the city is lying in ruins not just since the global crises. I'm really wondering why he still is supported.
As for Guido I simply don't want a gay politician to decide over the fate of my children. A politician show represent the people as much as possible.
And yes, I know that's terrible PIC.
quinsen
10-25-2009, 10:06 AM
I don't give a f*ck about his ****** orientation, if he's doing a good job and my children are facing a better future.
So a social democrat is automatically a douchebag?
Seems you're immitating US republicans too much.Would you show me where I made such a statement about social democracy in general? Could be pretty tough as I didn't make one.
I've got nothing against centrist social democrat politicians and I'd really appreciate if you didn't fvck with my posts.
Mr. Wowereit is a douchebag in my humble opinion because he moves nothing politically, blames his predecessors for every of his very own incapabilities and wastes his time on trendy parties and snotty banquettes whilst his state goes down the drain.
Derbedeu
10-25-2009, 10:51 AM
As for Guido I simply don't want a gay politician to decide over the fate of my children. A politician show represent the people as much as possible.
And yes, I know that's terrible PIC.
:cantbeli:
LineDoggie
10-25-2009, 10:52 AM
Would you show me where I made such a statement about social democracy in general? Could be pretty tough as I didn't make one.
Sssh, dont interrupt his fantasy
tluassa
10-25-2009, 12:09 PM
Germanys new cabinet :) special image collection by me :) These People are going to govern us ...
The Queen: Angela Merkel
http://www.abendblatt.de/multimedia/archive/00171/bier5_HA_Politik_Du_171858b.jpg
http://www.n24.de/media/_fotos/bildergalerien/2008_4/oktoberfest2008/pa_15.jpg
Vize Chancellor and foreign minister: Guido Westerwelle
http://www.nzz.ch/images/westerwelle-2009_1.3697890.1254132357.jpg
http://pix.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/367/309305/westerwelle-ap300-1220870371.jpg
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/1219141101000/00642/Westerwelle_Afghani_642798g.jpg
Chancellory Office - Ronald Pofalla (some somebody can change :) this is his "younger years :) " Same goes for Merkel btw :)
http://pix.sueddeutsche.de/politik/892/419656/image_fmbg_0_8-1190893756.jpg
http://pix.sueddeutsche.de/politik/892/419656/image_fmbg_0_3.jpg
Justice Ministry: Sabine Leutheusser-Scharrenberger
http://www.merkur-online.de/bilder/2009/01/19/60223/1306707408-sabine-leutheusserschnarrenberger-guido-westerwelle.9.jpg
http://www.ksta.de/ks/images/mdsBild/1253775638805l.jpg
Interior Ministry:
Thomas de Maizière
http://www.sz-online.de/bilder/2009_02/gr_2079106_1.jpg
http://www.veronica-bellmann.de/content/home/fotos/2009/06-Juni/120609_Miniaturen_03.jpg
Finance Ministry: Wolfgang Schäuble
http://www.bundesregierung.de/Content/DE/Biographien/Bilder/wolfgang-schaeuble,property=poster.jpg
Social and Work Ministry: Franz Josef Jung
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/00215/cn_bier2_DW_Politik_215910a.jpg
Economy: Rainer Brüderle
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/FDP+Votes+Coalition+Contract+WS6ssdXQaiol.jpg
http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Bundespresseball+2008+bFH-AZpzM2ol.jpg
Agriculture Ministry: Ilse Aigner :)
http://www.merkur-online.de/bilder/2009/04/22/221711/1436445122-ilse-aigner.9.jpg
Defense Ministry: Freiherr zu Guttenberg
http://www.abendblatt.de/multimedia/archive/00171/bier3_HA_Politik_AB_171856b.jpg
http://static.bbv-net.de/layout/fotos/457x325/48139-Germany_Election_Guttenberg_CNG114.jpg
http://static.bbv-net.de/layout/fotos/457x325/48139-DEU_BY_Wahl_CSU_Guttenberg_CNG105.jpg
Family: Ursula von der Leyen
http://p3.focus.de/img/gen/2/w/HB2wkySN_Pxgen_r_311xA.JPG
http://nexuslex.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/wetten_leyen_tonne__719556g.jpg
http://www.am-ende-des-tages.de/g/070912-berliner-oktoberfest/berliner-oktoberfest-0008.jpg
Health: Phillip Rösler
http://www.wopo.tv/bilder/2009/935_markteroeffn.jpg
Traffic: Peter Ramsauer
http://www.tz-online.de/bilder/2009/04/02/132174/668390341-ramsauer.9.jpg
Evoironment: Norbert röttgen
http://www.manager-magazin.de/img/0,1020,545274,00.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3521/3795457792_056f55dd5e.jpg
Science and Developement : Anette Schavan
http://veracor.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/schavan_gr.jpg
Developement: Dirk Niebel (the one in Uniform :) )
http://www.fdp-thueringen.de/upload/dirk_niebel_in_erfurt1.jpg
Difool
10-25-2009, 12:16 PM
:)Great collection, tluassa! LOL :)
Bohemoth
10-25-2009, 12:47 PM
Germanys new cabinet :) special image collection by me :) These People are going to govern us ...
The Queen: Angela Merkel
{many pics}
Sounds like a threat. Looks more like a cabinet of horrors, except for Dr. Zu Guttenberg and Dr. Rösler.
Vandervahn
10-25-2009, 01:07 PM
Please refrain from calling Mr Freiherr zu Guttenberg a Baron. He does not deserve it, as "nobility" in Germany is supposed to be extinct and he is supposed to be as plain a person as anyone.
Every time I see this submissive reverence of undeserved, unrequisited nobility in the german society and elements of the media I could puke.
Macs.
10-25-2009, 01:15 PM
Yeah, call him by his full name.
Karl-Theodor Maria Nikolaus Johann Jacob Philipp Franz Joseph Sylvester Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg.
Xaito
10-25-2009, 01:33 PM
Please refrain from calling Mr Freiherr zu Guttenberg a Baron.
Eh... by calling him "Freiherr" zu Guttenberg you call him baron yourself :)
It's his title - the titles are still there but you're free to use it or don't use it - others are free to decide for themselves.
Difool
10-25-2009, 01:36 PM
Eh... by calling him "Freiherr" zu Guttenberg you call him baron yourself :)
It's his title - the titles are still there but you're free to use it or don't use it - others are free to decide for themselves.
There are no aristocratic titles in Germany anymore. The former title became part of the surname.
It's:
"Karl-Theodor Maria Nikolaus Johann Jacob Philipp Franz Joseph Sylvester Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg"
instead of:
"Freiherr Karl-Theodor Maria Nikolaus Johann Jacob Philipp Franz Joseph Sylvester von und zu Guttenberg"
By the way: Because of my job I met some barons, counts and princes. Most intoduce themselves using the surname without "count of" or other.
Zarak
10-25-2009, 01:51 PM
Please refrain from calling Mr Freiherr zu Guttenberg a Baron. He does not deserve it, as "nobility" in Germany is supposed to be extinct and he is supposed to be as plain a person as anyone.
Every time I see this submissive reverence of undeserved, unrequisited nobility in the german society and elements of the media I could puke.
You've got a crazy inferiority complex going on. The use of the title isn't admission of inadequacy or submission, its out of respect for the persons' ancestors and their role in the nation's history, along with basic ****ing politeness.
Please refrain from calling Mr Freiherr zu Guttenberg a Baron. He does not deserve it, as "nobility" in Germany is supposed to be extinct and he is supposed to be as plain a person as anyone.
Every time I see this submissive reverence of undeserved, unrequisited nobility in the german society and elements of the media I could puke.Do whatever you want except for prescribing others what they are ought to do. Nobility is not extinct in Germany but its privileges and rights have been abolished. By referring to zu Guttenberg as a "Baron" he is not awarded anything he would not deserve.
You've got a crazy inferiority complex going on. The use of the title isn't admission of inadequacy or submission, its out of respect for the persons' ancestors and their role in the nation's history, along with basic ****ing politeness.Absolutely right.
Nope, Vanderwahn is right.
Nobility has been abolished. In contrary to the UK where the nobility still enjoys a special status, noble titles are just names, according to a 1920s law.
The austrians went a step further and made everyone relinquish their "von" or "Freiherr" or whatever alltogether.
So you can safely say nobility is extinct as a special status. Of course the families are still there.
But legally, a freiherr von something should always stick to one form of his name, not as in imperial days when the exact way to adress someone depended on your own status (as a fellow noble you would've called the guy "Guttenberg" without any title, for example) and the occasion, as the full title could be quite long.
Using the official name with all the freiherrs and whatnot is politness but there are slimers who call noblemen "durchlaucht" or "hoheit" or so, now that is really overblown.
Derbedeu
10-25-2009, 02:10 PM
Yeah, call him by his full name.
Karl-Theodor Maria Nikolaus Johann Jacob Philipp Franz Joseph Sylvester Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg.
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7150/shifty.gif (http://img30.imageshack.us/i/rantz.gif/)
Traditional catholic germans often use Maria as a second or third name for sons.
Rainer Maria Rilke, for example
Mackie
10-25-2009, 02:15 PM
Sounds like a threat. Looks more like a cabinet of horrors, except for Dr. Zu Guttenberg and Dr. Rösler.
Lobbyism strong!
Nope, Vanderwahn is right.
Nobility has been abolished. In contrary to the UK where the nobility still enjoys a special status, noble titles are just names, according to a 1920s law.
The austrians went a step further and made everyone relinquish their "von" or "Freiherr" or whatever alltogether.
So you can safely say nobility is extinct as a special status. Of course the families are still there.
But legally, a freiherr von something should always stick to one form of his name, not as in imperial days when the exact way to adress someone depended on your own status (as a fellow noble you would've called the guy "Guttenberg" without any title, for example) and the occasion, as the full title could be quite long.
Using the official name with all the freiherrs and whatnot is politness but there are slimers who call noblemen "durchlaucht" or "hoheit" or so, now that is really overblown.Right with what exactly?
The way how we commonly adress each other as "Herr XYZ" is an undeserved salute. We would know that we actually say "My lord XYZ" if we paid attention to the etymological source of this word!
To address zu Guttenberg as a Baron is a voluntary way of saluting him or in other words, recognizing his past and the contributions of his family. He is a respectable politician, and so where his father and grandfather. Members of his family were in the resistance against the Nazis like many of then-royals.
Many German noble families have this old-fashioned attitude of contributing well to the country. That's why I as an individual reserve the right to choose the address I deem suitable.
It's free to everyone to do as they please but those who violently insist on the lawful address normally just feel inferior due to their unspectacular run-of-the-mill names.
LineDoggie
10-25-2009, 02:19 PM
Yes let's argue about the traditional title Baron because as we all know, the worst despot in German history was a Noble instead of a Common man and immigrant from Austria.
:roll:
Yes let's argue about the traditional title Baron because as we all know, the worst despot in German history was a Noble instead of a Common man and immigrant from Austria.
:roll:You've got a point there.
Derbedeu
10-25-2009, 02:33 PM
Traditional catholic germans often use Maria as a second or third name for sons.
Rainer Maria Rilke, for example
I had no idea. Learn something new everyday.
Yes let's argue about the traditional title Baron because as we all know, the worst despot in German history was a Noble instead of a Common man and immigrant from Austria.
:roll:
Hit it right on the head Linedoggie, as usual. The guy was not only the worst despot, but a pompous ass as well!
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1562/10005382kaiserportrait.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/i/10005382kaiserportrait.jpg/)
[/URL][URL="http://img98.imageshack.us/i/biggrind.gif/"]http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7117/biggrind.gif (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7117/biggrind.gif)
johanness
10-25-2009, 02:47 PM
Hit it right on the head Linedoggie, as usual. The guy was not only the worst despot, but a pompous ass as well!
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1562/10005382kaiserportrait.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/i/10005382kaiserportrait.jpg/)
[/URL][URL="http://img98.imageshack.us/i/biggrind.gif/"]http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7117/biggrind.gif (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7117/biggrind.gif)
That was a half english bastard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Emperor
Wilhelm II was born in Berlin to Prince Frederick William of Prussia and his wife, Victoria, Princess of Prussia (born Princess Royal of the United Kingdom), thus making him a grandson of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom. He was Queen Victoria's first grandchild. As the son of the Crown Prince of Prussia, Wilhelm was (from 1861) the second in the line of succession to Prussia, and also, after 1871, to the German Empire, which according to the constitution of the German Empire was ruled by the Prussian King. As with most Victorian era royalty, he was related to many of Europe's royal families.
With Guttenberg's ancestors, there's not only WW2 resistance heroes.
The Guttenbergs in the 16th centuries were basically robber barons (in the old meaning of the word) sitting in their franconian castles robbing merchants going to and from the south german free cities.
In 1523, the swabian alliance had enough, raised an army and destroyed every last castle in posession of the Guttenbergs....
;)
Vandervahn
10-25-2009, 04:52 PM
Eh... by calling him "Freiherr" zu Guttenberg you call him baron yourself :)
It's his title - the titles are still there but you're free to use it or don't use it - others are free to decide for themselves.
The title of "Baron" was never used in Germany. And the man is neither a Freiherr nor a Baron, he is just called Charly Freiherr von Guttenberg.
You've got a crazy inferiority complex going on. The use of the title isn't admission of inadequacy or submission, its out of respect for the persons' ancestors and their role in the nation's history, along with basic ****ing politeness.
Why should I be polite to someone because at some point his ancestors elevated themselves over their compatriots? Some of my ancestors were a moderately influential mercantile patriciate. These people at least worked for their renown. And still I am not eligible to be paid respect for THEIR deeds. Noone deserves either respect or punishment for what their ancestors did, that is just bull**** hereditarianism.
And certainly not some so called "nobles" whose ancestors - if they werent busy fighting amongst each other - routinely robbed their lands dry because of an artificially created power structure that forced the common people to be servants for all their lives with little hope of gaining at least a little bit of personal freedom by hard work. Because THAT was their main role in this nations history.
We are at a point in time where every person is judged for him/herself - we now know that the qualities of a person cannot be found in the genes, and that the colour of their blood does not define that persons character and rights, and them being graced by god. Anyone still paying tribute to this outdated and inhuman system of nobility is kicking that "All men are equal" thingy right in the face.
You may call it an inferiority complex. I call it Article 3 of our constitution. The power of that unjust system can be seen in the millions of people from all walks of life that gave up everything to risk their lives and try their luck in the uncharted new worlds. I don´t think it deserves any praise - the Austrians did it right and just put a lid on it.
Baron is the official translation of Freiherr into english noble ranks.
Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen = the Red Baron :)
Mackie
10-25-2009, 05:01 PM
With Guttenberg's ancestors, there's not only WW2 resistance heroes.
The Guttenbergs in the 16th centuries were basically robber barons (in the old meaning of the word) sitting in their franconian castles robbing merchants going to and from the south german free cities.
In 1523, the swabian alliance had enough, raised an army and destroyed every last castle in posession of the Guttenbergs....
;)
And the press wrote he know nothing about the economy.
Capitalism runs in his blood. p-)
The title of "Baron" was never used in Germany. And the man is neither a Freiherr nor a Baron, he is just called Charly Freiherr von Guttenberg."Baron" is just the latinized word for "Freiherr" and usage has had a long history with German nobility since the 16th century.
Why should I be polite to someone because at some point his ancestors elevated themselves over their compatriots? Some of my ancestors were a moderately influential mercantile patriciate. These people at least worked for their renown. And still I am not eligible to be paid respect for THEIR deeds. Noone deserves either respect or punishment for what their ancestors did, that is just bull**** hereditarianism.
And certainly not some so called "nobles" whose ancestors - if they werent busy fighting amongst each other - routinely robbed their lands dry because of an artificially created power structure that forced the common people to be servants for all their lives with little hope of gaining at least a little bit of personal freedom by hard work. Because THAT was their main role in this nations history.
We are at a point in time where every person is judged for him/herself - we now know that the qualities of a person cannot be found in the genes, and that the colour of their blood does not define that persons character and rights, and them being graced by god. Anyone still paying tribute to this outdated and inhuman system of nobility is kicking that "All men are equal" thingy right in the face.
You may call it an inferiority complex. I call it Article 3 of our constitution.Article 3? Mother of mercy now you're bringing out the big guns. So a bit of traditionalist politeness is "kicking that All men are equal thingy right in the face"?
I guess you wouldn't call a church dignitary "Archbishop" then as he's no elector anymore?
It's a tradition for God's sake. Hold your horses and whilst you're at it, climb of your high one.
:cantbeli:
tluassa
10-25-2009, 05:53 PM
@ Vandervahn you sound like an annoying peasant ... ^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA
LineDoggie
10-25-2009, 05:57 PM
Manny Richthofen,the red pilot doesnt seem to have the same panache though, does it.
Difool
10-26-2009, 12:10 AM
Sorry guys! This discussion is without any sense.
1. Freiherr is not his title, but part of his name.
2. He won't care if you addess him "Herr Freiherr Zu Guttenberg" or Herr Zu Guttenberg". With the exception of writing his name of course.
3. His name is not the topic.
Bohemoth
10-26-2009, 01:02 AM
Lobbyism strong!
Haha, that's just coincidence. I was more referring to their looks.
They are the only ones in the new cabinet that are young, fresh, energetic and straight. :)
manberries
10-26-2009, 03:17 AM
And the press wrote he know nothing about the economy.
Capitalism runs in his blood. p-)
Ahh, gotta love how much the socialists are freaking out of the EU's most economically powerful country turning conservative. Perhaps Germans are sick of paying the doubling costs of healthcare, especially when the healthcare they are paying for is that of the Czechs.
Baron is the official translation of Freiherr into english noble ranks.
Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen = the Red Baron :)
Two von Richthofen and a few others who were Graf von der .... went to school with me. The two guys were the great grand sons of Lothar Freiherr von Richthofen. The whole discussion is stupid. All the former nobility i had in my school acted and lived like anyone else. I also had a Leopold von Bismarck 5 years under me, lol.
Mackie
10-26-2009, 05:19 AM
Ahh, gotta love how much the socialists are freaking out of the EU's most economically powerful country turning conservative. Perhaps Germans are sick of paying the doubling costs of healthcare, especially when the healthcare they are paying for is that of the Czechs.
Yeah. Wannabe conservatives.
All I see by now are idiots who will fail again.
Brüderle for economy - Lower taxes, more growth. Hell yeah, worked also in the last 8 years in the US.
Doctor Rössler for health - I remember that the CDU lobby of doctors avoided a much better system
Ramsauer, Schavan and Westerwelle. rofl
To be honest and despite the fact that Schroeder was an idiot in some decisions - he was the most conservative chancellor in the last years.
Risking the future of his party to reforming the social systems was incredible brave act and the key for the succesful development till 2008.
Exorbitant social spending was conservative politics in the last years and depends more on the individual politicians than the partys traditional tendency.
Weasel
10-26-2009, 07:06 AM
Ahh, gotta love how much the socialists are freaking out of the EU's most economically powerful country turning conservative. Perhaps Germans are sick of paying the doubling costs of healthcare, especially when the healthcare they are paying for is that of the Czechs.
Nope. With the conservatives in power the costs for healthcare will increase next year. Just saying.
The most ironic thing is Dirk Niebel as minister for foreign aid.
He wanted to abolish this ministry originally, now he gets the post
rofl
Herman the II
10-26-2009, 10:47 AM
The most ironic thing is Dirk Niebel as minister for foreign aid.
He wanted to abolish this ministry originally, now he gets the post
rofl
Hopefully he cuts that stupid foreign aid down. I don't have a problem with charity, but only if you don't have to borrow the money that you donate to "poor" countries like Russia or China....
Astaran
10-26-2009, 11:03 AM
Great, because you can't criticize the person (yet), you criticize the name :cantbeli:
But on topic:
I'm glad to see Freiherr (p-)) zu Guttenberg as our new Minister of Defence. I hope he meets my expectations as a MoD who fights for the Bundeswehr and tries his best in the upcoming "budget wars".
I'm quite sure that he will be a better Minister of Defence than Jung, but honestly, even a chimp could do better than Jung. At least a chimp wouldn't talk so much BS.
Mackie
10-26-2009, 11:15 AM
The most ironic thing is Dirk Niebel as minister for foreign aid.
He wanted to abolish this ministry originally, now he gets the post
rofl
You saw the conference?
"... no competition in foreign politics ..."
And the whole press laughed.
Niebel, Westerwelles jester.
rofl
Xaito
10-26-2009, 05:28 PM
unpleasant question... dodged ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaWE8K2nRVs
Redox
10-26-2009, 05:40 PM
To be honest and despite the fact that Schroeder was an idiot in some decisions - he was the most conservative chancellor in the last years.
Risking the future of his party to reforming the social systems was incredible brave act and the key for the succesful development till 2008.
Exorbitant social spending was conservative politics in the last years and depends more on the individual politicians than the partys traditional tendency.
hits the nail and so on
Sadly many conservatives were cheering that the SPD was punished for its rather conservative politics and will now be heading to the left.
Difool
10-27-2009, 02:24 AM
It's really hard to tell the difference between the major parties since Schröder has been chancelor.
It's going to be intresting what will change now. I guess some liberal policy in the ministry of interior and a more trans atlantic foreign policy.
Weasel
10-27-2009, 04:39 AM
unpleasant question... dodged ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaWE8K2nRVs
Dodging is what she can do best. :)
Bohemoth
10-27-2009, 12:02 PM
Dodging is what she can do best. :)
Or just like Westerwelle, she doesn't like questions from foreign journalists.
This new governments starts to act like the Chinese. All uncomfy questions are internal matters - none of your business, and speak German. p-)
Difool
10-27-2009, 12:06 PM
Or just like Westerwelle, she doesn't like questions from foreign journalists.
This new governments starts to act like the Chinese. All uncomfy questions are internal matters - none of your business, and speak German. p-)
Na, na, na! :)
Xaito
10-27-2009, 12:35 PM
Or just like Westerwelle, she doesn't like questions from foreign journalists.
This new governments starts to act like the Chinese. All uncomfy questions are internal matters - none of your business, and speak German. p-)
well the guy must have learned the lesson - he really tried hard to speak good german - Westerwelle looked pleased.
Difool
10-29-2009, 02:01 PM
Does anybody know Zu Guttenberg's current military rank?
As far as I know, his rank is Sergeant.
It'd be more interesting to find out if he's been an active reservist so far. It's quite a rise from a squaddie to commander-in-chief.
Herman the II
10-29-2009, 02:11 PM
"Unteroffizier der Reserve"
Edit:
late
"Unteroffizier der Reserve"And that is Sergeant or OR-5.
manberries
10-29-2009, 08:30 PM
hits the nail and so on
Sadly many conservatives were cheering that the SPD was punished for its rather conservative politics and will now be heading to the left.
Nice logic. You see Socialists overspend like crazy, you draw a parrell to a person who claims to be a conservative but didn't act like one, and therefore the mistakes of your Socialist party becomes the mistake of conservatives and the socialists should go ever farther left. Pick up a logic book. Your Socialist party spent too much because they are socialists. They will go farther left because that is the nature of polarized politics. Your Socialist Party wasn't conservative at all, and it is nothing but a sad attempt to twist all reality to describe them as such. You do this only because they failed and it hurts you knowing you back the wrong horse. We will see how you bunch laugh at the proven economic law "lower taxes = larger economy" when it is shown to you first hand.
tluassa
10-29-2009, 08:44 PM
Nice logic. You see Socialists overspend like crazy, you draw a parrell to a person who claims to be a conservative but didn't act like one, and therefore the mistakes of your Socialist party becomes the mistake of conservatives and the socialists should go ever farther left. Pick up a logic book. Your Socialist party spent too much because they are socialists. They will go farther left because that is the nature of polarized politics. Your Socialist Party wasn't conservative at all, and it is nothing but a sad attempt to twist all reality to describe them as such. You do this only because they failed and it hurts you knowing you back the wrong horse. We will see how you bunch laugh at the proven economic law "lower taxes = larger economy" when it is shown to you first hand.
Wow wow, wait:
The SPD (Social Democratic Party, to be precise here! under Gehard Schröder ! from 1998-2005) is meant here, and if I got it correctly Redox meant the Harz4 reforms, which were inevitable anyway, in any case. And I have to say as a liberal (FDP) I still hold this reforms in Schröders favor. (and avoiding the German engagement in Iraq)
But that has nothing to do with Socialist overspending, to the contrary Schröder in this case pushed reforms that did cut "social spending" !
And because of this rather "conservative" policy", his party lost support of many of its voters. (not the only cause, but the main cause of the decline of the SPD during the last term in Germany!) That is what is meant here. And in this case Schröder didnt fail, he just did not push hard enough, but he did what he could.
PS: Im still someone in favor of the new german government and I do sense that the new party at the side of the christian democrats might bring a little fresh wind into the government. There is hope ;)
manberries
10-29-2009, 08:51 PM
Cutting "social spending" to some minute degree due to economic realities, while off set by extreme spending towards the EU, Health care, and "green tech" does not make him a conservative. Nothing of what he did is fiscally responsible, it is only that in Europe to be a conservative is less that of what it does (or at least is supposed to) mean in the US.
A "socialists are baaad" troll, what does this have to do with Guttenberg?
We will see how our Uffz. d. R. handles things.
Optimistic view: As candid and well-spoken as he is, Guttenberg will manage to turn the german Afghanistan mission into something that makes sense and shake up the hidebound defense apparatus.
Pessimistic view: As ambitious and trans-atlantic as he is, Guttenberg will try to out-foreign policy Westerwelle. Between his frequent visits to Washington and turf wars with the foreign office, he will expect the Bundeswehr to run itself.
tluassa
10-30-2009, 10:08 AM
It will be an interesting fight over the defence budget soon between zu Guttenberg
http://www.morgenpost.de/multimedia/archive/00324/guttenberg_flugzeug_324719b.jpg
And the man who is ... quote Obi Wan Kenobi: "More Machine than human, a diabolical machine ..."
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/3367/schubleschadowofempire.jpg
According the plan the new defence budget should rise to 33 billion € in the next years, I wonder if this is getting through without cuts. On the other hand Afghanistan is a good reason to stick to the budget increase, but we all know politicians dont we ?
Macs.
11-18-2009, 06:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/8fD6bNU2HNw
Very good speech in Mazar-I-Sharif.
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