American Muslims and Human Rights

[ariweiner]

A good read if you're up to it...

American Muslims, Human Rights, and the Challenge of September 11, 2001
By Imam Zaid Shakir
Abstract

Human rights regimes constitute one of the critical aspects of modern international political life. Like many other contemporary political phenomena, the idea of human rights originated in the secular political milieu of the modern West. Although Islam has historically been characterized by viable teachings, which have helped to insure the protection of basic human rights, it has yet to produce a human rights regime, which mirrors that of the modern West.

With the growth of Islam in America, certain conditions have combined to produce an understanding of Islam which creates a strong human rights imperative. Foremost amongst these conditions is the minority composition of the Muslim community. Traditional concerns of ethnic and religious minorities, especially strong among African American Muslims, lead to many Muslims viewing Islam as a system that will provide relief from the harsh realities of political under-representation, discrimination, race-based prejudice, economic stagnation, and other real or perceived maladies.

These concerns, combined with the strong human rights imperative of Islamic movements based in the Muslim world, movements which are combating in many instances brutally repressive states, create a very strong human rights discourse among those advancing the Islamic call in America. That call, beginning in earnest with the missionaries of the Ahmadiyya movement in the 1920s, focused on contrasting the worst failings of American societies, such as racism and racial discrimination, with an idealized and simplistic view of the Islamic Shari’ah. Malcolm X was able to synthesize the many currents informing that discourse into a fully developed human rights agenda.

With the tragic events of September 11, 2001, the prevailing Muslim human rights discourse has been called into question, as the idealized view of Islam has been undermined by acts of wanton, inhumane violence, allegedly committed in its name. Critics point to those tragic events and similar acts as indicators of Islam’s inability to accommodate a system of modern human rights. To effectively respond to the challenges presented by these allegations, Muslims will have to radically reform the way that we understand and conceptualize human rights.

The philosophical basis on which we build any proposed human rights regime will have to be clearly and rigorously articulated. Vague, ambiguous, or meaningless generalities will have to be clarified by appropriate legal and technical language. We will have to cease avoiding the discussion of critical issues by hiding behind our cultural and religious uniqueness. Existing declarations will have to be accompanied by firm, well-defined legal and constitutional guarantees which allow us to extend, in meaningful ways, existing theoretical guarantees to those groups which most frequently experience human rights abuses in our lands –specifically: women, and ethnic, racial, as well as religious minorities.

While acknowledging the shortcomings in contemporary Islamic human rights schemes, we must also recognize that Islam contains the necessary foundation for the construction of a viable, modern system of human rights. If we are able to discover and build on that foundation, we will be able to meaningfully discuss human rights, even in the changed post September 11, 2001 political climate.
Introduction

The tragic events of September 11, 2001, have called into question many fundamental Islamic principles, values, and beliefs. The ensuing discourse in many critical areas reveals the weakness of Muslims in making meaningful and substantive contributions towards a clear understanding of the Islamic position on a number of critical issues. The purpose of this paper is to examine one of those issues, human rights, in an effort to identify:

1. How human rights are defined in the Western and Islamic intellectual traditions;
2. Why human rights issues are of central importance to Islamic propagation efforts in North America;
3. What are the implications of the tragic events of September 11, 2001 for prevailing Muslim views of human rights.

This paper is not designed to respond the attacks of those authors who assail the philosophy, conceptualization, formulation, and application of human rights policy among Muslims. Such a response would be quite lengthy, and owing to the complexity of the project, would probably raise as many questions as it resolved. Nor is it an attempt to call attention to the increasingly problematic indifference of the United States government towards respecting the civil liberties and other basic rights of its Muslim and Arab citizens. We do hope that this paper will help American Muslims identify and better understand some of the relevant issues shaping our thought and action in the critical area of human rights. Hopefully, that enhanced understanding will help lead to the creation of a vibrant, sober, relevant Islamic call in this country.
Part One: Defining Human Rights

A review of the relevant literature reveals a wealth of definitions for human rights. Some of these definitions are quite brief, others quite elaborate. [1] However, few of these definitions deviate far from the principles delineated by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), issued by the UN General Assembly in 1948. That landmark document emphasizes, among other things:

The right to life, liberty, and security of person; the right to freedom of thought, speech, and communication of information and ideas; freedom of assembly and religion; the right to government through free elections; the right to free movement within the state and free exit from it; the right to asylum in another state; the right to nationality; freedom from arbitrary arrest and interference with the privacy of home and family; and the prohibition of slavery and torture.

This declaration was followed by the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights (ICESCR), in 1966. In the same year, the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), was also drafted. These arrangements, collectively known as the International Bill of Human Rights, were reaffirmed in the Helsinki Accords of 1975, and buttressed by the threat of international sanctions against offending nations. When we examine these and other international agreements governing human rights, we find a closely related set of ideas, which collectively delineate a system of fundamental or inalienable, universally accepted rights.

These rights are not strictly political, as the UDHR mentions:

The right to work, to protection against unemployment, and to join trade unions; the right to a standard of living adequate for health and well-being; the right to education; and the right to rest and leisure

In summary, we can say that human rights are the inalienable social, economic and political rights, which accrue to human beings by virtue of their belonging to the human family.

Defining human rights from an Islamic perspective is a bit more problematic. The reason for this is that there is no exact equivalent for the English term, “human rights,” in the traditional Islamic lexicon. The frequently used Arabic term, al-Huquq al-Insaniyya, is simply a literal Arabic translation for the modern term. However, our understanding of the modern term, when looked at from the abstract particulars which comprise its definition, gives us insight into what Islam says in this critical area. For example, if we consider the word “right” (Haqq), we find an array of concepts in Islam, which cover the range of rights mentioned in the UDHR.

If we begin with the right to life, Islam clearly and unequivocally guarantees that right. The Qur’an states, Do not unjustly take the life which Allah has sanctified. [Qur’an 6:151] Similarly, in the context of discussing the consequences of the first murder in human history, For that reason [Cain murdering Abel], we ordained for the Children of Israel that whoever kills a human being for other than murder, or spreading corruption on Earth, it is as if he has killed all of humanity. And whoever saves a life, it is as if he has saved all of humanity. [Qur’an 5:32]

It should be noted in this regard, as the first verse points out, Islam doesn’t view humanity as a mere biological advancement of lower life forms. Were this the case, there would be little fundamental distinction between human and animal rights, other than those arising from the advancement and complexity of the human mind. However, Islam views human life as a biological reality, which has been sanctified by a special quality that has been instilled into the human being –the spirit (Ruh). [2] The Qur’an relates, …then He fashioned him [the human being] and breathed into him of His spirit. [Qur’an 32:9]

It is interesting to note that this spiritual quality is shared by all human beings, and precedes our division into nations, tribes, and religious collectivities. An illustration of this unifying spiritual bond can be gained from considering a brief exchange, which occurred between the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him), and a group of his companions (May Allah be pleased with them). Once a funeral procession passed in front of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) and a group of his companions. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) reverently stood up. One of his companions mentioned that the deceased was a Jew, to which the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) responded, “Is he not a human soul?” [3]

Possession of this shared spiritual quality is one of the ways our Creator has ennobled the human being. Allah says in this regard, We have truly ennobled the human being…[Qur’an 17:70] This ennoblement articulates itself in many different ways, all of which serve to highlight the ascendancy of the spiritual and intellectual faculties in man. It provides one of the basis for forbidding anything, which would belittle, debase, or demean the human being, and its implications extend far beyond the mere preservation of his life. [4] It guarantees his rights before birth, by forbidding abortion, except in certain well-defined instances; and after death, it guarantees the right of the body to be properly washed, shrouded, and buried. It also forbids the intentional mutilation of a cadaver, [5] even in times of war, and forbids insulting or verbally abusing the dead, even deceased non-Muslims. While these latter points may be deemed trivial to some, they help create a healthy attitude towards humanity, an attitude that must be present if acknowledged rights are to be actually extended to their possessors.

If we examine other critical areas identified by the UDHR for protection as inalienable rights, we can see that Islam presents a very positive framework for the safeguarding of those rights. In the controversial area of religious freedom, where Islam is identified by many in the West as a religion which was spread by forced conversion, we find that Islam has never advocated the forced acceptance of its creed, in fact, the Qur’an unequivocally rejects this idea, Let there be no compulsion in [accepting] Religion, truth clearly distinguishes itself from error. [Qur’an 2:256] Allah further warns His Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) against forced conversions, If your Lord had willed, everyone on Earth would have believed [in this message]; will you then compel people to believe? [Qur’an 10:99]

In this context, every human being is free to participate in the unrestricted worship of his Lord. As for those who refuse to do so according to the standards established by Islam, they are free to worship as they please. During the Ottoman epoch, this freedom evolved into sophisticated system of minority rights known as the Millet System. Bernard Lewis comments on that system:

Surely, the Ottomans did not offer equal rights to their subjects –a meaningless anachronism in the context of that time and place. They did however offer a degree of tolerance without precedence or parallel in Christian Europe. Each community –the Ottoman term was Millet- was allowed the free practice of its religion. More remarkably, they had their own communal organizations, subject to the authority of their own religious chiefs, controlling their own education and social life, and enforcing their own laws, to the extent that they did not conflict with the basic laws of the Empire. [6]

Similarly positive Islamic positions can be found in the areas of personal liberties, within the parameters provided by the Islamic legal code. We will return to a brief discussion of those parameters, and their implications for an Islamic human rights regime. However, it isn’t the purpose of this paper to engage in an exhaustive treatment of this particular subject.

Stating that, we don’t propose that Islamic formulations in this regard are an exact replica of contemporary Western constitutional guarantees governing human rights policy. Muslims and non-Muslims alike, when examining the issue of human rights within an Islamic legal or philosophical framework, should realize that human rights regimes, as we know them, are a contemporary political phenomenon, which have no ancient parallel. However, we are prepared to defend the thesis that Islam has historically presented a framework for protecting basic human rights, and that it presents a system of jurisprudential principles that allow for the creation of a viable modern human rights regime, totally consistent with the letter and spirit of Islam.
Part Two: The Relevance of Human Rights for Islam in America

Islam in America has historically been characterized by a strong advocacy of human rights and social justice issues. This is so because it has been associated with people who would be identified as ethnic minorities. The first significant Muslim population in this country, the enslaved believers of African origin, would certainly fit that description. [7] The various Islamic movements, which arose amongst their descendents, appeared in a social and political context characterized by severe oppression. That socio-political context shaped the way Islam was understood by the people embracing it. It was a religion, in of all its variant understandings, which was seen as a source of liberation, justice, and redemption. [8]

When the ethnic composition of the Muslim community began to change due to immigration in the 1970s, 1980s, and into the 1990s, the minority composition of the Muslim community remained. These newly arriving non-European immigrant Muslims were generally upwardly mobile, however, their brown and olive complexions, along with their accents, and the vestiges of their original cultures, served to reinforce the reality of their minority status. This fact, combined with the fact that the most religiously active among them were affiliated with Islamic movements in the Muslim World, movements whose agenda were dominated by strong human rights and social justice concerns, affected the nature of the Islamic call in this country, keeping human rights concerns to the fore.

Illustrative of this human rights imperative is the stated mission of the Ahmadiyya Movement when it began active propagation in America. Mufti Muhammad Sadiq, the first significant Ahmadi missionary to America, consciously called to a multicultural view of Islam, which challenged the entrenched racism prevalent in early 20th Century American society. [9] This message presented Islam as a just social force, capable of extending to the racial minorities of this country their full human rights. However, there were strong anti-white overtones of the Ahmadi message, shaped by Mufti Muhammad Sadiq’s personal experience, and the widespread persecution of people of Indian descent (so-called Hindoos) in America, which dampened the broader appeal of the Ahmadi message. Those overtones were subsequently replaced by the overtly racist proclamations of the Nation of Islam, which declared whites to be devils. In the formulation of the Nation of Islam, Islam came to be viewed as a means for the restoration of the lost preeminence of the “Asiatic” Blackman. This restoration would be effected by a just religion, Islam, which addressed the social, economic and psychological vestiges of American race-based slavery. In other words, Islam was the agent that would grant the Muslims their usurped human rights. [10]

The pivotal figure who was able to synthesize these various formulations into a tangible, well-defined human rights agenda was Malcolm X. [11] By continuing to emphasize the failure of American society to effectively work to eliminate the vestiges of slavery, he was an implicit advocate of the justice-driven agenda of the Nation of Islam, even after departing from that movement. His brutal criticism of the racist nature of American society, which he often contrasted with the perceived racial harmony of Islam, highlighted by his famous letter from Mecca [12] in which he envisioned Islam as a possible cure for this country’s inherent racism, was the continuation of the original multi-cultural message of the Ahmadiyya Movement. Finally, his evolving thinking on the true nature of the struggle of the African American people, and his situating that struggle in the context of the Third World human rights struggle, reflected the human rights imperative which figured so prominently in the call of Middle Eastern groups such as Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, and the Indian Subcontinent’s Jamaati Islami, groups which had a strong influence on the founders of this country’s Muslim Students Association (MSA) in 1963. [13]

These various groupings, along with the Dar al-Islam Movement, the Islamic Party of North America, and Sheikh Tawfiq’s Mosque of Islamic Brotherhood, [14] which would develop in many urban centers during the 1960s and 1970s as the purveyors of an emerging African American “Sunni” tradition, a tradition consolidated by the conversion of Malcolm X to the orthodox faith, represented in their various agendas, the crystallization of the sort of human rights agenda which Malcolm was hammering out during the last phase of his life. These groups all saw Islam as the key to liberation from the stultifying weight of racial, social, and economic inequality in America.

The Iranian Revolution of 1979 further strengthened this human rights imperative. The revolution was presented by its advocates in America, who were quite influential at the time, as an uprising of the oppressed Muslim masses, the “Mustad’afin,” to secure their usurped rights from the Shah, an oppressive “Taghut.” This message, conveyed strongly and forcefully through the call of the Muslim Students Association: Persian Speaking Group (MSA-PSG), was extremely influential in shaping the human rights imperative in American Islam, not only because of its direct influence, but also because of the vernacular of struggle it introduced into the conceptual universe of many America Muslims, and the way it shaped the message of contending “Sunni” groups. The combined influence of these forces worked to insure that human rights issues were prominent in the call of Islamic organizations and individuals prior to the tragic events of September 11, 2001.
Part Three: The Challenge of September 11, 2001

The tragic events of September 11, 2001 present a clear challenge to the human rights/social justice imperative of Muslims in North America. The reasons for this are many and complex. The apocalyptic nature of the attacks of September 11, 2001, particularly the assault on, and subsequent collapse of the World Trade Center towers, led many observers to question the humaneness of a religion which could encourage such senseless, barbaric slaughter. Islam, the religion identified as providing the motivation for those horrific attacks, was brought into the public spotlight as being, in the view of many of its harshest critics, an anti-intellectual, nihilistic, violent, chauvinistic atavism. [15]

The atavistic nature of Islam, in their view, leads to its inability to realistically accommodate the basic elements of modern human rights philosophy. [16] This inability was highlighted by the September 11, 2001 attacks in a number of ways. First of all, the massive and indiscriminant slaughter of civilians belied, in the view of many critics, any claims that Islam respects the right to life. If so, how could so many innocent, unsuspecting souls be so wantonly sacrificed? Secondly, “Islam’s” refusal to allow for the peaceful existence of even remote populations of “infidels,” the faceless dehumanized “other,” calls into question its respect for the rights of non-Muslims within its socio-political framework. It also highlights its inability to define that “other” in human terms.

As a link between the accused perpetrators of the attacks, Usama bin Laden, and the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan was developed by both the United States government and news media, the human rights position of Islam was called into further question. The Taliban, by any standards of assessment, presided over a regime that showed little consideration for the norms governing international human rights. Much evidence exists which implicates the Taliban in violating the basic rights of women, ethnic minorities (non-Pashtun), the Shi’ite religious minority, detainees, artists, and others, using in some instances, extremely draconian measures. Many of these violations occurred under the rubric of applying what the regime identified as Islamic law. The news of Taliban excesses, coupled with the shock of the events of September 11, 2001, combined to create tremendous apprehension towards the ability and willingness of Islam to accommodate a meaningful human rights regime. [17]

The political climate existing in America in the aftermath of September 11, 2001 has been exploited by certain elements in American society to call into question any humanitarian tendencies being associated with Islam. For example, in the aftermath of the brutal murder of Daniel Pearle, an act whose implications are as chilling as the attacks of September 11, 2001, Mr. Pearle’s bosses at the Wall Street Journal, Peter Kann and Paul Steiger remarked, “His murder is an act of barbarism that makes a mockery of everything that Danny’s kidnappers claimed to believe in.” Responding to those comments, Leon Wieseltier, of the New Republic, stated, “The murder of Daniel Pearle did not make a mockery of what his slaughterers believe. It was the perfect expression, the inevitable consequence, of what his slaughterers believe.” [18] This, and similar indictments of Islam, challenge the ability of American Muslims to effectively speak on human rights issues in obvious ways.

If we examine the actual nature American Muslim human rights discourse prior to September 11, 2001, we find that it was based in large part on Muslims contrasting the generalities of the Shari’ah, with the specific shortcomings American society and history in relevant areas of domestic and international policy and practice. [19] This discourse ignored the positive human rights strictures contained in sections of the American constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the UDHR, to which the United States is a signatory.

As in other areas, this inadequate approach produced a false sense of moral superiority among Muslims in America. This sense was shattered by the attacks of September 11, 2001, in that many Americans were suddenly pointing to what they viewed as the inadequacy of Islamic human rights regimes, their inadequate philosophical basis, and their failure to guarantee basic human rights protection, especially for women, religious, racial, and ethnic minorities living in Muslim lands.

Responding adequately to these charges will require a radical restructuring of current Islamic human rights discourse, and the regimes that discourse informs. The generalities, which formerly sufficed in that discourse will have to be replaced by concrete, developed policy prescriptions, which stipulate in well-defined, legal terms, how viable human rights protections will be extended to groups identified as systematically suffering from human rights abuses in Muslim realms.

An example of the dangerous and inadequate generalities alluded to above, can be glimpsed from a brief examination of the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI). Article 24 of that document states, “All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari’ah.” [20] Such a statement is meaningless, considering the vast corpus of subjectively understood literature that could be identified as comprising the Shari’ah, unless the relevant rulings and principles of the Shari’ah are spelled out in exacting detail.

While this paper has consciously avoided mention of those features of Islam which would be antithetical to the Western concept of personal liberty, such as the lack of freedom to chose one’s “****** orientation,” there are major civil liberties issue which must be addressed, in clear and unequivocal terms, if Islam’s human rights discourse is to have any credence. Hiding behind Islam’s cultural, or religious specificity to avoid providing answers to difficult questions will not advance a deeper understanding of our faith amongst enlightened circles in the West. Islam indeed has much to say in the area of human rights. However, much foundational work has to be done before we can speak clearly and authoritatively, especially in the changed post September 11, 2001 political climate.

In Islam and Human Rights, Ann Elizabeth Mayer, whose work has been previously cited, [21] acknowledges,

…the Islamic heritage comprises rationalist and humanistic currents and that it is replete with values that complement modern human rights such as concern for human welfare, justice, tolerance, and equalitarianism. These could provide the basis for constructing a viable synthesis of Islamic principles and international human rights… [22]

Perhaps the greatest challenge before us in this regard is successfully identifying those rationalist and humanitarian “currents” and riding them to a new, more enlightened shore. Doing this will require, among other things, a bold, but mature assessment of the proper relationship between creed and action in the social and political realms. A serious attempt to engage in a rational application of legal principles to contemporary social and political problems in no way implies adopting the methodology of the Mu’tazila, medieval Muslim legal and theological rationalists. Using ration as the standard to assess the veracity of revelation, and using ration as the basis for discovering meaningful Islamic solutions to pressing social or political problems, in areas where revelation provides no articulated guidance, constitute two entirely different projects.

That being said, our attempts at solving novel contemporary socio-political problems must be guided by well-defined methodologies. Applicable methodologies have been expounded on by Muslim scholars of jurisprudential principles, and those who have assessed those methodologies, and the rulings they inform in light of the great overarching objectives of Islamic law. These scholars include the likes of Imam al-Shatibi, author of the groundbreaking work, al-Muwafaqat, [23] and Imam ‘Izz al-Din bin ‘Abd al-Salam, author of Qawa’id al-Ahkam, [24] and many others. These writings are part of a rich heritage of scholarship and thought, which allowed Muslims to adequately respond to a succession of civilizational challenges throughout our long and illustrious past. If we are able to master that rich heritage, and use the best of it to address the burning issues of our day, we will be able to meaningfully discuss human rights, and the full array of issues that currently vex and perplex us. By so doing, we will be able to step confidently into the future.

Imam Zaid Shakir

[1] One such concise definition of human rights is mentioned in Paul E. McGhee, “Human Rights,” in The Social Science Encyclopedia, ed. Adam and Jessica Kuper (London, New York: Routledge, 1985), p. 369. He states, “Human rights are the rights and freedoms of all human beings.” Cyrus Vance presents a much more elaborate definition in which he envisions human rights encompassing the security of the person, meeting his vital needs, civil and political liberties, and freedom from discrimination. Abridged from Cyrus Vance, “The Human Rights Imperative,” in Taking Sides: Clashing Views on Controversial Issues in World Politics, ed. John T. Rourke (Guilford, CT: The Dushkin Publishing Group, Inc., 1992), pp. 254-255.

[2] Islamic scholars have defined the spirit (Ruh) in various ways. Perhaps the best translation would be “life-spirit.” Its true nature is unknown to any human being, although there has been much speculation as to what exactly it is. It is created before the creation of the bodies, which will house it. Worldly life begins with its entrance into the body, and ends with its extraction from the body.

[3] This incident is based on a rigorously authenticated tradition, which has been conveyed by Al-Bukhari, no. 1312; Muslim, no. 2222; and al-Nasa’i, no. 1920.

[4] A beautiful discussion of the ways the human being has been ennobled by God can be found in Imam Fakr al-Din al-Razi’s commentary of the relevant Qur’anic verse, 17:70. See, Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, al-Tafsir al-Kabir (Beirut: Dar Ihya al-Turath al-‘Arabi, 1997), vol. 7, pp. 372-374.

[5] This practice is condemned based on a tradition related by Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Ibn Majah.

[6] Bernard Lewis, What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response (Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press, 2002), pp. 33-34

[7] For a moving, well-document description of the history, lives, institutions, struggles, and legacy of the Africans enslaved in the America, see, Sylviaane A. Diouf, Servants of Allah: African Muslims Enslaved in the Americas, New York, London: SUNY Press, 1998).

[8] See, Robert Dannin, Black Pilgrimage to Islam (Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press, 2002). Dannin presents a good summary of the evolution of Islam among African-Americans. His book is especially valuable for its detailed treatment of the evolution of the African-American Sunni Muslim community. See, also Richard Brent Turner, Islam in the African American Experience (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1997).

[9] Turner, pp. 121-131.

[10] For a detailed introduction to the racist ideology of the Nation of Islam, see, Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Black Man (Chicago: Muhammad’s Temple No. 2, 1965). Especially insightful in this regard is a chapter entitled, “The Devil,” pp. 100-122.

[11] The theme of human rights figured prominently in the political oratory of Malcolm X during the last two years of his life. At the time of his assassination, he was in final stages of a campaign to charge the United States –in the United Nations- with violating the human rights of the then 20,000,000 African Americans in this country. Many observers feel that campaign, a source of great embarrassment for the United States, may have resulted in his death. His views on this subject are presented, among other places, in a speech entitled, “The Ballot or the Bullet” in George Breitman, ed., By Any Means Necessary (New York: Pathfinder Press, 1970), pp. 21-22. See, also, “Interview with Harry Ring Over Station WBAI, January 28, 1965,” in Two Speeches by Malcolm X (New York: Pathfinder Press, 1965), pp. 28-29.

[12] Alex Haley with Malcolm X, The Autobiography of Malcolm X (New York: Ballentine Books, 1964) pp. 338-342.

[13] The Muslim Students Association (MSA) was formed in 1963 among immigrant Muslims. It would eventually evolve into the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). Formed in 1982, ISNA is the largest Islamic organization in North America. See, Dannin, p. 73; and Turner, p. 236.

[14] For a summary of the inter-group dynamics between the Islamic Party of North America, Dar al-Islam, and Sheikh Tawfiq’s Muslim Islamic Brotherhood, see Dannin, pp. 65-73.

[15] For example, The New Republic’s Jonah Goldberg refers to Islam as,“…anti-capitalist, alien, sometimes medieval, and often corrupt theocratic fascism.” Jonah Goldberg, “The Goldberg File,” The New Republic, 1 October 2001.

[16] Perhaps the most thorough assessment of Islam and human rights is Ann Elizabeth Mayer, Islam and Human Rights: Tradition and Politics (Boulder: Westview Press, 1999). Although simplistically lauded by many critics of Islam as “an understated and powerful repudiation of the notion of ‘Islamic Human Rights,’” Mayer’s argument is far more involved. While identifying many of the problems plaguing contemporary Islamic human rights regimes, Mayer sees Islam’s rich tradition as being capable of producing an effective, modern human rights movement.

[17] For an indication of the extent of the reported human rights abuses of the Taliban, see Ahmad Rashid, Taliban (London, New York: I.B. Tauris Publishers, 2000), chs. 4,5,8. Also, see Michael Griffin, Reaping the Whirlwinds:The Taliban Movement in Afghanistan (London: Pluto Press, 2001), ch. 12.

[18] Leon Wiesiltier, “The Murder of Daniel Pearl,” The New Republic, 25 February 2002

[19] A widely circulated pamphlet, among Muslims, which illustrates this approach is, Mawlana Abu’l ‘Ala Mawdudi, Human Rights in Islam (Leicester, England: Islamic Foundation, 1980).

[20] This declaration was submitted to the World Conference on Human Rights, Preparatory Committee, Fourth Session. Geneva, April 19 – May 7, 1993.

[21] See note 16.

[22] Mayer, p. 192.

[23] Imam Ibrahim bin Musa Abi Ishaq al-Shatibi, al-Muwafaqat (Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifa, 1997).

[24] ‘Izz al-Din ‘Abd al-‘Aziz bin ‘Abd al-Salam, Qawa’id al-Ahkam (Damascus: Dar al-Tiba’a, 1996).

[memphiz]

Get out of here you POS

[Fintin]

over four lines...i dont read it...not in this sextion atleast...

[ZeroPositive]

someone lock this thread...

[mocking_loudly_died]

I'm not reading all that.

[Moledet]

I'm not reading all that.
I stopped reading at, "Human rights".

[Seoulstriker]

Considering the Quran teaches that non-Muslims have zero civil rights... :roll:

[Fintin]

Considering the Quran teaches that non-Muslims have zero civil rights... :roll:


translation.....*****

[Seoulstriker]

translation.....*****

:roll:

[Fintin]

translation.....*****

:roll:

your no fun

[EvanL]

Considering the Quran teaches that non-Muslims have zero civil rights... :roll:
Is it possible to back that up?
And tell us what the bible teaches about non-christians?
I mean. Werent we the ones that started the crusades, causing the deaths of thousands of Jews/Muslims?

[StarvingStudent47]

http://www.blogjam.com/cute_little_kittens/

[Seoulstriker]

Considering the Quran teaches that non-Muslims have zero civil rights... :roll:
Is it possible to back that up?
And tell us what the bible teaches about non-christians?
I mean. Werent we the ones that started the crusades, causing the deaths of thousands of Jews/Muslims?


The Quran is only allowed to be in one language, Arabic, so I am not able to give you a direct quotation, but I can try to explain it:

Islam, which means submission, requires Muslims to submit to the many laws and requirements, etc. Non-believers (infidels), are also required to submit to Islam. In one case, you have non-Muslims who choose to live in a Muslim country. This individual is required to pay a tax to the government in order to simply live there, and also to submit to the wills of any Muslim, being forced to do anything the Muslim requires. If the non-Muslim does not submit to the payment or becoming a slave, then the non-believer (infidel) must be killed.

I hope this explains a little. :|

[EvanL]

Considering the Quran teaches that non-Muslims have zero civil rights... :roll:
Is it possible to back that up?
And tell us what the bible teaches about non-christians?
I mean. Werent we the ones that started the crusades, causing the deaths of thousands of Jews/Muslims?


The Quran is only allowed to be in one language, Arabic, so I am not able to give you a direct quotation, but I can try to explain it:

Islam, which means submission, requires Muslims to submit to the many laws and requirements, etc. Non-believers (infidels), are also required to submit to Islam. In one case, you have non-Muslims who choose to live in a Muslim country. This individual is required to pay a tax to the government in order to simply live there, and also to submit to the wills of any Muslim, being forced to do anything the Muslim requires. If the non-Muslim does not submit to the payment or becoming a slave, then the non-believer (infidel) must be killed.

I hope this explains a little. :|Since that is your interpretation. My interpretation of your interpretation is that it is bull****.
Now if you stop posting and shut up.. I will let you touch my *****.
That is all.

[Vance]

I guess you've finally had enough bad luck with women, eh Evan? ;)

[EvanL]

I guess you've finally had enough bad luck with women, eh Evan? ;)U can never have enough.. ;)
But thanks for the cheapshot. I will remember that one when im banging your mom :D

[Vance]

I guess you've finally had enough bad luck with women, eh Evan? ;)U can never have enough.. ;)
But thanks for the cheapshot. I will remember that one when im banging your mom :D
You're sick. :cantbeli:


:P

[EvanL]

I guess you've finally had enough bad luck with women, eh Evan? ;)U can never have enough.. ;)
But thanks for the cheapshot. I will remember that one when im banging your mom :D
You're sick. :cantbeli:


:P
U asked for it my darling :hug:

[Vance]

:-*$

[Fintin]

LADIES....simmadahnayahea

[Seoulstriker]

Considering the Quran teaches that non-Muslims have zero civil rights... :roll:
Is it possible to back that up?
And tell us what the bible teaches about non-christians?
I mean. Werent we the ones that started the crusades, causing the deaths of thousands of Jews/Muslims?


The Quran is only allowed to be in one language, Arabic, so I am not able to give you a direct quotation, but I can try to explain it:

Islam, which means submission, requires Muslims to submit to the many laws and requirements, etc. Non-believers (infidels), are also required to submit to Islam. In one case, you have non-Muslims who choose to live in a Muslim country. This individual is required to pay a tax to the government in order to simply live there, and also to submit to the wills of any Muslim, being forced to do anything the Muslim requires. If the non-Muslim does not submit to the payment or becoming a slave, then the non-believer (infidel) must be killed.

I hope this explains a little. :|Since that is your interpretation. My interpretation of your interpretation is that it is bull****.
Now if you stop posting and shut up.. I will let you touch my *****.
That is all.

It's not an interpretation. That is what the Quran commands. :| The Quran is very explicit in what it commands, and there is no room for interpretation.

[usa320]

now in the time you guys spent being bufoons you could have read the article...

i tried to...but i fell asleep halfway through.

[ariweiner]

Rats I forgot this was the "Off topic and Humor thread. Obviously, not many would be willing to try to understand what the author is saying. My bad for posting... :|

[Fintin]

Rats I forgot this was the "Off topic and Humor thread. Obviously, not many would be willing to try to understand what the author is saying. My bad for posting... :|

like i said...over four lines...


your not funny...but your funny looking HEHE

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Man that was a pain to slog through at this hour. But interesting.

Well, I have to say that I question the author's interpretation of Islam. Not that I'm comparing the two, but having read the Koran myself...trying to put a big happy smile on the book & say that it can accept any form of modern liberal egalitarianism is kind of like trying to polish a turd. No matter how you try, it ain't gonna happen.

Not that I disagree with the author's goals - to try to transform Islam into a kinder, gentler religion...but with the current rule book & it's many references directing violence against non-believers -how can it possibly be done? In fact, it directs Muslims to deceive we non-believers in an attempt to gain our confidence. Nothing like walking voluntarily into the jaws of the tiger, eh?

An interesting quote in the article though;

Perhaps the greatest challenge before us in this regard is successfully identifying those rationalist and humanitarian “currents” and riding them to a new, more enlightened shore.
I read that as trying to create a "new" Islam that leaves out all the icky parts. Sort of like the endless flavors of Christianity, each with it's own, as I like to call them "sin threshold". You know- like how bad you can be and still claim to be a Christian.

Let's face it - it's all about the money and power. Create a more palatable religion, and you appeal to a wider demographic = more goodies for those in the drivers' seat. Plus, all us infidels won't be totally pissed off at them any more 'cause their Koran has cartoons, and pics of people of all denominations holding hands!

Hey, it can be done though. Take a look at the vast variety of Christian sects & denominations. To observe their traditions and what each considers "acceptable" - you'd never know they all use the same source document.

I wish them luck, it's gonna require one hell of a PR job.

[Secret Squirrel]

Is it even possible to generalize the entire muslim faith? I mean, with christianity you have various groups which can differ from each other to the point of one group arguing that another group is going to hell because of their beliefs. Regarding not intrepretating the Quran, why would there be the various sects such as the Sunni's, Shiites and Wahabies if different interpretations didn't exist? Also arent those muslims that believe that those not willing to convert to the Islamic religion are Infidels and can be eliminated the fundamentalists? I found this "article" kind of interesting...


Islam is not a monolithic religion in which unanimity of belief and action is coordinated from a central authority. Islam has an estimated two billion adherents in countries all over the world who belong to any one of a number of different sects with varying beliefs, traditions, and interpretations of scripture. (As well, some religious groups identify themselves as Islamic but are not recognized as such by the vast majority of Muslims.) No one Muslim (especially one who wasn't even a cleric) could speak to what all of Islam believes, any more than a single member of a Methodist congregation could speak for every denomination and follower of Christianity. Many, many Muslims reject the idea that "all followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of their faith," or even the suggestion that such an interpretation has ever been a valid tenet of Islam. We sent this piece to several Muslim groups and invited them to offer comments; they provided somewhat different explanations about the concept of jihad, how Muslims regard non-Muslims, and other related topics, but they all agreed that the editorial presented a grossly distorted version of their beliefs.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

I honestly dont know much about the Muslim religion, so feel free to point out if the above was pointless to post. Just a closing quote, which examines a few things about the bible...



a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homo******ity. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

[Mark Sman]

"sin threshold"

Nice. Permission to reuse that when in the presence of my fundamentalist friends so as to take the piss?

[MEGR]

Those Bible quotes are more relevant to Judaism. All of them come from the Old Testament, which is used mainly by the Jewish religion. Christians tend to go to the New testament more than the Old. Christians use the Old more for historical, prophesies, geneologies.

Christians are not under OT law

Lk.16:16
"The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached."

Rom.6:14
"Ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Rom.7:4, 6
"Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead."

Gal.5:18
"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

Eph.2:15
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances."

Yes, they are binding forever.

Ex.12:14, 17, 24
"And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. ... And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. ... And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever."

Lev.23:14,21,31
"It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations."

Ps.119:151-2
"Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever."

Ps.119:160
"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

Mt.5:18-19
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

Lk.16:17
"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

By Jesus Christ, you are saved. By the Grace of God, and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, his burial, and ressurection, are you saved, not by works. That is what a true Christian believes. Anyone can be saved may they be Muslim, Buddist, murderer, etc... Hell, even OBL can be saved.

[EvanL]

Considering the Quran teaches that non-Muslims have zero civil rights... :roll:
Is it possible to back that up?
And tell us what the bible teaches about non-christians?
I mean. Werent we the ones that started the crusades, causing the deaths of thousands of Jews/Muslims?


The Quran is only allowed to be in one language, Arabic, so I am not able to give you a direct quotation, but I can try to explain it:

Islam, which means submission, requires Muslims to submit to the many laws and requirements, etc. Non-believers (infidels), are also required to submit to Islam. In one case, you have non-Muslims who choose to live in a Muslim country. This individual is required to pay a tax to the government in order to simply live there, and also to submit to the wills of any Muslim, being forced to do anything the Muslim requires. If the non-Muslim does not submit to the payment or becoming a slave, then the non-believer (infidel) must be killed.

I hope this explains a little. :|Since that is your interpretation. My interpretation of your interpretation is that it is bull****.
Now if you stop posting and shut up.. I will let you touch my *****.
That is all.

It's not an interpretation. That is what the Quran commands. :| The Quran is very explicit in what it commands, and there is no room for interpretation.
What you fail to realize is the faults within our own religion (christianity).
You have talked about bible study classes that you participate in. I assume you are familiar with many of the injustices that we as christians have done over the years to the Jews, and Muslims? How about the forcing of christianity onto the native americans? Stealing their children and forcing them to adapt to our religion in boarding schools?
Do you think we have our hands clean as well? We sure as **** dont.
So i ask you that next time before you decide to take it upon yourself to interpret your version of the Qu'ran. You think about soem of the things that our people have done and ask yourself if the history of our church is any better.

[Seoulstriker]

What you fail to realize is the faults within our own religion (christianity).
You have talked about bible study classes that you participate in. I assume you are familiar with many of the injustices that we as christians have done over the years to the Jews, and Muslims? How about the forcing of christianity onto the native americans? Stealing their children and forcing them to adapt to our religion in boarding schools?
Do you think we have our hands clean as well? We sure as f*** dont.
So i ask you that next time before you decide to take it upon yourself to interpret your version of the Qu'ran. You think about soem of the things that our people have done and ask yourself if the history of our church is any better.

I agree, it was horrible for people in the past to do the things they did, namely the Crusades, in the name of Christianity. They did not accurately live their lives according to what the Bible states as the way. What some followers of Christianity have done can not be accurately compared to what the Quran commands it's followers to do. It's one thing for a group of Christians to behave not according to the Bible but to their own wicked beliefs. It's a totally different thing for Muslims to do what they do because they are acting in exact accordance with the Quran.

The Quran expects loyal, faithful Muslims to assimilate non-Muslims into Islam, and if the non-Muslims do not convert or become slaves, then they must be slaughtered. That is what the Quran teaches.

The bible teaches no such thing. The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself. The bible does not teach that good Christians must kill non-believers/infidels.


I hope that I explained this well.

[EvanL]

What you fail to realize is the faults within our own religion (christianity).
You have talked about bible study classes that you participate in. I assume you are familiar with many of the injustices that we as christians have done over the years to the Jews, and Muslims? How about the forcing of christianity onto the native americans? Stealing their children and forcing them to adapt to our religion in boarding schools?
Do you think we have our hands clean as well? We sure as f*** dont.
So i ask you that next time before you decide to take it upon yourself to interpret your version of the Qu'ran. You think about soem of the things that our people have done and ask yourself if the history of our church is any better.

I agree, it was horrible for people in the past to do the things they did, namely the Crusades, in the name of Christianity. They did not accurately live their lives according to what the Bible states as the way. What some followers of Christianity have done can not be accurately compared to what the Quran commands it's followers to do. It's one thing for a group of Christians to behave not according to the Bible but to their own wicked beliefs. It's a totally different thing for Muslims to do what they do because they are acting in exact accordance with the Quran.

The Quran expects loyal, faithful Muslims to assimilate non-Muslims into Islam, and if the non-Muslims do not convert or become slaves, then they must be slaughtered. That is what the Quran teaches.

The bible teaches no such thing. The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself. The bible does not teach that good Christians must kill non-believers/infidels.


I hope that I explained this well.
Well then.
I guess its one thing to take commandments from a book, and another thing to decide to do them on their own.
Do you even know any muslims?
Cus i have a couple of muslim friends, and none of them have ever tried to convert me or anyone else.
Thats more thanb i can say for those mormons who used to come knocking on our door every day during the summer.
Or those Jehovas Witnesses who used to try to bribe me with magazines to join their church when i was oinly 10.
Have a good day pole stroker.

[Secret Squirrel]

Those Bible quotes are more relevant to Judaism. All of them come from the Old Testament, which is used mainly by the Jewish religion. Christians tend to go to the New testament more than the Old. Christians use the Old more for historical, prophesies, geneologies.

Christians are not under OT law

Lk.16:16
"The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached."

Rom.6:14
"Ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Rom.7:4, 6
"Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead."

Gal.5:18
"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

Eph.2:15
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances."

Yes, they are binding forever.

Ex.12:14, 17, 24
"And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. ... And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. ... And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever."

Lev.23:14,21,31
"It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations."

Ps.119:151-2
"Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever."

Ps.119:160
"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

Mt.5:18-19
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

Lk.16:17
"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

By Jesus Christ, you are saved. By the Grace of God, and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, his burial, and ressurection, are you saved, not by works. That is what a true Christian believes. Anyone can be saved may they be Muslim, Buddist, murderer, etc... Hell, even OBL can be saved.

Yes that was the point of my post. Not every religion or group that believes in the Bible uses it in the same way. So how can someone argue that the entire muslim faith uses one book in exactly the same way? How could someone argue that the book is not allowed to be intrepretated when the fact that there are various sects, which suggests that there are various intrepretations. Again, the devil is in the details, and broadbrushing rarely works. I was mostly trying to make this points for Seoulstriker.


Many, many Muslims reject the idea that "all followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of their faith," or even the suggestion that such an interpretation has ever been a valid tenet of Islam. We sent this piece to several Muslim groups and invited them to offer comments; they provided somewhat different explanations about the concept of jihad, how Muslims regard non-Muslims, and other related topics, but they all agreed that the editorial presented a grossly distorted version of their beliefs.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp

[MEGR]

Ok. I thought you meant something different Secret Squirrel.

[Tane Angle]

You're talking about some details of Islam but only the big points of Christianity. Try comparing the Ten Commandments or two Big Rules to the Five Pillars.

1/3rd of the Koran says real nice things, a 1/3rd says real not nice things, and 1/3rd says stuff that doesn't fit into one of those two categories. Remember, it was written over a long period of time, and so there are wide variations in the rhetoric, even a large number of mutually exclusive orders.

Of course, Islam is far from being just the Koran. Think either Druze clan interpret a good deal of the Koran the same way that a lot of Peshwar clerics do?

The Bible is also filled with mutually exclusive notes. Even the New Testament has a lot of conflicting stories (especially if one takes into account the other 36 or so Gospels).

DevGru77, that means you're only taking part of the whole document, right? Which is fine, Muslims do the same thing.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

IMHO, we should avoid comparing the Koran & the Bible in terms of "well the Bible says bad things too". Maybe so, but that has nothing to do with this discussion of Islam.

The author of the article is basically saying that Islam has a serious PR problem in that it is perceived to bee "too strict" by modern standards, and specifically does not incorporate modern notions of human rights. A literal reading of the Koran leaves one somewhat shell-shocked.

Also...somebody mentioned that the Koran was written over a long period of time. Not so, if Islamic tradition is to be believed. The Koran (literally meaning "recital) was supposedly dictated directly by God through Gabriel to Mohammed , as he wandered around in the desert. It remained an oral tradition during Mohammed's lifetime, then was completely transcribed (written down) before his death, and has supposedly not changed significantly since then.

Don't ask me..I was very young at the time, and don't remember much - I can't verify that story personally.

[Secret Squirrel]

IMHO, we should avoid comparing the Koran & the Bible in terms of "well the Bible says bad things too". Maybe so, but that has nothing to do with this discussion of Islam.

Why? The point is that you can use either book to say bad things. Look at various groups within christianity, dont they basically say if you dont believe what i believe then you're soul is going to hell to be tormented and tortured? How many christian groups preach to their followers that they need to convert people to their faith to save their souls? The question is why is christianity taken as a more moderate belief system even though it condemns the non-believers to hell?


The author of the article is basically saying that Islam has a serious PR problem in that it is perceived to bee "too strict" by modern standards, and specifically does not incorporate modern notions of human rights. A literal reading of the Koran leaves one somewhat shell-shocked.

A literal reading of the bible can leave one somewhat shell-shocked too. I dont believe the bible literally says to kill someone, but if people arent saved then they're doomed anyway. Basically, either convert or you're ****ed. Isnt that similar to the Koran "literally" saying to convert people to that religion and if they arent converted then, as some have argued, you have to kill them (ie. the non-believers are doomed)?


Also...somebody mentioned that the Koran was written over a long period of time. Not so, if Islamic tradition is to be believed. The Koran (literally meaning "recital) was supposedly dictated directly by God through Gabriel to Mohammed , as he wandered around in the desert. It remained an oral tradition during Mohammed's lifetime, then was completely transcribed (written down) before his death, and has supposedly not changed significantly since then.

Not sure how reliable this quote is, so if someone could correct it, please do...

Muslims believe that the Qur'an consists of the word of God revealed in Arabic by God to the Prophet Muhammad over a twenty-two year period. He received the first revelation in the year 610 CE while engaging in a contemplative retreat in the Cave of Hira located on the Mountain of Light (Jabal al-nur)(also known as Mt. Hira), which is in the outskirts of Mecca. The Qur'an is distinct from hadith, which are the sayings of Muhammad. It is agreed that Muhammad clearly distinguished between his own utterances (hadith) and God's words, the Qur'an. Muslims and most Western scholars of Islam believe that the Arabic Qur'an that exists today contains substantially the same Arabic that was transmitted by Muhammad. This often surprises scholars of the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity who (I have observed) assume that the Qur'an has substantially evolved over time (which is what scholars of the Bible --but not many believing Christians or Orthodox Jews-- generally agree on concerning the Bible). In other words, while scholars of the Bible in the West have largely succeeded in convincing the community of scholars that the Bible we have today was not the very same "Word of God" that was revealed through the prophets and which was spoken by Jesus, scholars of Islam have generally not come to similar conclusions about the Qur'an. This is not to say that the text of the Qur'an is written just as it was written during the time of Muhammad. On the contrary, it is a historical fact, accepted by Muslims and non-Muslims alike, that the writing of the text (but not the text itself) of the Qur'an has substantially evolved. One such major evolutionary difference is that originally the text was written without diacritical points--which distinguish some letters from others-- but early in the history of the writing of Qur'an, diacritical points were added. The upshot of this is the vast majority of Muslims rest assured that they are reading the exact words of revelation received by Muhammad (even though the manner of writing those words has indeed changed over time). Since Muslims believe that words themselves are those revealed by God, the act of reciting or reading the Qur'an is believed to be a means of receiving blessings (baraka) from God. Hence it is not uncommon that Muslims will learn how to read Arabic and the Qur'an without understanding it. Also, even those who cannot read the Arabic letters of the Qur'an believe that they can nevertheless benefit from hearing the evocative quality and blessedness of the original Arabic.

http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/primsourcisl.html#qur'an

[5jumpchump]

I find it particularly sad that someone would spend nearly half their life reading the same book over and over again . I'm sorry but I can only view that type of "religion" as more of a cult . Serve , submit , sacrifice - for some dude who lived like 3000 years ago . Lol , what a way to spend your precious and short time on this planet . What ever floats your boat I guess rofl

[Javehn]

I don't knw , and it's too long too read it here . The best is just to read what US muslims think about everything in their own forum :

www.gawaher.com

And it all makes pretty clear what we facing .

[Tane Angle]

Why not include the words "some" or "Whahabi" in some of these posts, because without them it sounds pretty dang bad?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[5jumpchump]

OMFG dude I just read about 20 minutes on about 3 or 4 topics . I loved the "why do Christians eat so much Swine ? " thread . Holy crap on a rubber crutch that **** was funny . I also liked the explanation of why woman need to be covered up , just so a man doesn't have to go through the endless desire to think about *** . Duuuuuuhoooooohooooodue what the **** hahahahahahahah those people are so brain washed it's not even funny . I actually feel sad for them now . I mean what the **** it gets like 125 degrees out in the Saudi desert , Iran and they force their woman to wear NOTHING BUT BLACK THICK ROBES !!!! WTF , at least let them wear yellow/white lighter clothing . Unbelievable ! rofl

[2Sheds_Jackson]

IMHO, we should avoid comparing the Koran & the Bible in terms of "well the Bible says bad things too". Maybe so, but that has nothing to do with this discussion of Islam.

Why? The point is that you can use either book to say bad things. Look at various groups within christianity, dont they basically say if you dont believe what i believe then you're soul is going to hell to be tormented and tortured? How many christian groups preach to their followers that they need to convert people to their faith to save their souls? The question is why is christianity taken as a more moderate belief system even though it condemns the non-believers to hell?


The author of the article is basically saying that Islam has a serious PR problem in that it is perceived to bee "too strict" by modern standards, and specifically does not incorporate modern notions of human rights. A literal reading of the Koran leaves one somewhat shell-shocked.

A literal reading of the bible can leave one somewhat shell-shocked too. I dont believe the bible literally says to kill someone, but if people arent saved then they're doomed anyway. Basically, either convert or you're f***. Isnt that similar to the Koran "literally" saying to convert people to that religion and if they arent converted then, as some have argued, you have to kill them (ie. the non-believers are doomed)?



Yeah, well the Bible's no bowl of cherries either I suppose, but you have to see the difference between telling people that they should convert, and threatening them, beating them, or killing them.

Note - I am not saying that all Muslims want to kill infidels...not at all. But I am saying that it's pretty clear that the Koran says to.

The key to all this is the "source document" and how far one can stretch the "interpretations" of it. You cannot compare the Bible & the Koran in terms of the consequences of non-belief. We've been down that road before. The Bible condemns you to hell -- which (if you believe in such things) is something that God does to you after you die. The Koran instructs Muslims to kill non-believers, and then the infidels go to Islamic hell (it's like normal hell, but there's no cable TV, women wear burkas, and there's no pork).

So to recap the consequences of non belief:
Bible =damnation after your eventual death.
Koran=you are to be killed, then the bonus damnation.

Hardly comparable.

So the problem arises when it comes to being a non-believer living amongst the converted. The non-believers in Jewish or Christian areas get to live the life they choose...then die. Non-believers in Islamic areas could face slightly more serious consequences (such as the beatings and intimidation dished out by the Saudi "virtue" squads, the Taliban, et al.) Even if they don't stone you to death, life ain't no picnic.

I'm not saying that a kinder, gentler Islam couldn't be spun up by some Innovative Imam...but that it would be hard to reconcile when you go back and read the source document (Koran), all of which are the same.

How do you reconcile a Muslim preacher saying "we must all live together in harmony" at the Mosque, when the guys reading along in the Koran see "you must slay the Infidels". Is that a typo or what? Compared to that kind of dichotomy, the various interpretations of the Bible are very minimal. A distortion of that size would be like saying that Moses was from New Hampshire and came down from Mt. Washington with the lexan tablets containing the 10 Holy Suggestions.

There are liberal and fundamentalist forms of all religions. The liberal ones incorporate modern societal beliefs in order to boost the ranks. The fundamentalist ones adhere strictly to the texts. The problem is that in the case of the Koran, strict adherence to the text is pretty nasty.

[Secret Squirrel]

Yeah, well the Bible's no bowl of cherries either I suppose, but you have to see the difference between telling people that they should convert, and threatening them, beating them, or killing them.

Note - I am not saying that all Muslims want to kill infidels...not at all. But I am saying that it's pretty clear that the Koran says to.

Hrm, are you sure the bible doesnt say anything about murdering non-believers?


Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)


Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)


"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)


"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)


Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)


(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Note: kill the followers of other religions.


While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)


"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

And theres a lot more examples.


The key to all this is the "source document" and how far one can stretch the "interpretations" of it. You cannot compare the Bible & the Koran in terms of the consequences of non-belief. We've been down that road before. The Bible condemns you to hell -- which (if you believe in such things) is something that God does to you after you die. The Koran instructs Muslims to kill non-believers, and then the infidels go to Islamic hell (it's like normal hell, but there's no cable TV, women wear burkas, and there's no pork).

So to recap the consequences of non belief:
Bible =damnation after your eventual death.
Koran=you are to be killed, then the bonus damnation.

Hardly comparable.

Well that depends on which part of the bible you're reading just as it depends on which part of the Koran you're reading. Strict following of the bible could get pretty nasty.

[5jumpchump]

Koran=you are to be killed, then the bonus damnation.

Bastard , i nearly spit coffee all over my PC ! rofl

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Hrm, are you sure the bible doesnt say anything about murdering non-believers?


Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)


Allrighty, so according to your "example" here, we are instructed by the Bible to transform into tigers and slay some guy? Huh?

Oh come on. All your "examples" are non-sequitur. These are not instructions - these are stories. History is a story...it is not instructions for behavior.

The Bible is written in a narrative style. It tells stories. A story containing a murder is not an instruction for murder. A story containing references to the devil is not an endorsement of the devil or instruction to do evil. A story of a war is not instruction to make war.

How would one follow a story? Are you proposing that the story elements are to be emulated by the faithful? We should construct a garden of eden & all wear fig leafs if we want to go to heaven? Christians and Jews are supposed to live their lives by recreating the stories - like a big awful church play?

The Koran, for the most part, is not written in a narrative style. It is sort of a list of bullet statements like;

-don't eat pork 'cause it's bad
-it is good to greet your neighbors
-your left hand is unclean for it has touched your giblets
-seek out and slay the infidels
-cats are good at keeping mice populations down
-women should be in charge of the home, so let them do their thing.
-defrag your hard drive every two weeks, lest you anger me greatly

These are instructions for followers. They are different from stories.

Nobody is saying that the Bible isn't full of violence. It reflects the violence of history. But it does not contain instructions to commit violence against others as a means of conversion or intimidation. The same cannot be said of the Koran.

[Secret Squirrel]

Hrm, are you sure the bible doesnt say anything about murdering non-believers?


Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)


Allrighty, so according to your "example" here, we are instructed by the Bible to transform into tigers and slay some guy? Huh?

Oh come on. All your "examples" are non-sequitur. These are not instructions - these are stories. History is a story...it is not instructions for behavior.

The Bible is written in a narrative style. It tells stories. A story containing a murder is not an instruction for murder. A story containing references to the devil is not an endorsement of the devil or instruction to do evil. A story of a war is not instruction to make war.

How would one follow a story? Are you proposing that the story elements are to be emulated by the faithful? We should construct a garden of eden & all wear fig leafs if we want to go to heaven? Christians and Jews are supposed to live their lives by recreating the stories - like a big awful church play?

The Koran, for the most part, is not written in a narrative style. It is sort of a list of bullet statements like;

-don't eat pork 'cause it's bad
-it is good to greet your neighbors
-your left hand is unclean for it has touched your giblets
-seek out and slay the infidels
-cats are good at keeping mice populations down
-women should be in charge of the home, so let them do their thing.
-defrag your hard drive every two weeks, lest you anger me greatly

These are instructions for followers. They are different from stories.

Nobody is saying that the Bible isn't full of violence. It reflects the violence of history. But it does not contain instructions to commit violence against others as a means of conversion or intimidation. The same cannot be said of the Koran.

Note: kill the followers of other religions.


While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?
Maybe you'd enjoy reading this thread and the article?
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19663&highlight=

[5jumpchump]

So **** that happened like 300 years ago still goes on today ?rofl Your an idiot
:bash:

[Secret Squirrel]

So **** that happened like 300 years ago still goes on today ?rofl Your an idiot
:bash:

Maybe you could explain your "brainfart". Also, it's "you're", not "your". If "YOU'RE" going to call me an idiot, at least make sure "YOUR" grammar is correct. woot

[anonymous individual]

... the arguments in here are waste of my time.

[Seoulstriker]

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?

So that's a command to kill members of other religions, yet the command "Cut off the heads of non-believers" is not a command. :roll:

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?


No, it's not. It's a story.

Is the story of Noah's Ark an instruction for us to all gather animals together & build a boat?

Rubbish. I'm no big fan of the Bible in particular... but you're really grasping at straws here.

[Secret Squirrel]

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?


No, it's not. It's a story.

Is the story of Noah's Ark an instruction for us to all gather animals together & build a boat?

Rubbish. I'm no big fan of the Bible in particular... but you're really grasping at straws here.

Ok, then lets cut away the fat and get to the heart of the matter...when was the last time a Muslim physically tried to kill you?

[Secret Squirrel]

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?

So that's a command to kill members of other religions, yet the command "Cut off the heads of non-believers" is not a command. :roll:

I'm saying, you can take perverted thoughts from either book. You said before that the Koran is not interpretated, but then explain why there are various sects if they all supposedly and literally believe the exact same thing?

[Beowulf]

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?


No, it's not. It's a story.

Is the story of Noah's Ark an instruction for us to all gather animals together & build a boat?

Rubbish. I'm no big fan of the Bible in particular... but you're really grasping at straws here.

Ok, then lets cut away the fat and get to the heart of the matter...when was the last time a Muslim physically tried to kill you?

heh...does indirect fire count?

[5jumpchump]

So **** that happened like 300 years ago still goes on today ?rofl Your an idiot
:bash:

Maybe you could explain your "brainfart". Also, it's "you're", not "your". If "YOU'RE" going to call me an idiot, at least make sure "YOUR" grammar is correct. woot

:oops: My bad . You are an idiot :bash: You are a terrorist loving A-hole . Get a life . That is all , idiot . Go stuff you're face in you're
lil book and defrag YOU'RE thoughts some more . :bash:

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Ok, then lets cut away the fat and get to the heart of the matter...when was the last time a Muslim physically tried to kill you?Well, as it happens, I do not live amongst or have dealings with Muslims, so even if they were inclined to harm me, they have not had that opportunity. (edit; not that I'm purposely avoiding them...I live in the Midwest & simply haven't seen any in the vicinity)

But here's a partial list of other non-believers who do live amongst or near them, and were killed by Jihadists, just over the last 10 years or so;


1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.
1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, kills 19 Americans.
1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in East Africa; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC, Pentagon attack. Total dead 3,044.
2002 (Apr.): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia leaves 21 dead, including 14 German tourists.
2002 (May): Car explodes outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
2002 (June): Bomb explodes outside American Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, kill 202, mostly Australian citizens.
2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, kills 16.
2003 (May): Suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
2003 (May): Four bombs kill 24 people, targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
2003 (Aug.): Suicide car bomb kills 12, injures 150, at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
2003 (Aug.): Suicide car bomb kills 12, injures 150, at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
2003 (Nov.): Explosions rock a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia housing compound killing 17.
2003 (Nov.): Suicide car bombers simultaneously attack two synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
2004 (Mar.): Ten terrorists bombs exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,800.
Sep 24 93 Yigal Vaknin was stabbed to death in an orchard near the trailer home where he lived near the village of Basra. A squad of the HAMAS's Iz a-Din al Kassam claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 9 93 Dror Forer and Aran Bachar were murdered by terrorists in Wadi Kelt in the Judean Desert. The Popular Front and the Islamic Jihad 'Al-Aqsa Squads' each publicly claimed responsibility.

Oct 24 93 Two IDF soldiers, Staff Sgt. (res.) Ehud Rot, age 35, and Sgt. Ilan Levi, age 23, were killed by a HAMAS Iz a-Din al Kassam squad. The two entered a Subaru with Israeli license plates outside a Jewish settlement in the Gaza Strip, whose passengers were apparently terrorists disguised as Israelis. Following a brief struggle, the soldiers were shot at close range and killed. Hamas publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 29 93 Chaim Mizrahi, resident of Beit-El, was kidnapped by three terrorists from a poultry farm near Ramallah. He was murdered and his body burned. Three Fatah members were convicted of the murder on July 27, 1994.

Nov 7 93 Efraim Ayubi of Kfar Darom, Rabbi Chaim Druckman's personal driver, was shot to death by terrorists near Hebron. HAMAS publicly claimed responsibility for the murder.

Nov 9 93 Salman 'Id el-Hawashla, age 38, an Israeli Bedouin of the Abu Rekaik tribe who was driving a car with Israeli plates, was killed by three armed men driving a truck hijacked from the Gaza municipality, in a deliberate head-on collision.

Nov 17 93 Sgt. 1st Cl. Chaim Darina, age 37, was stabbed by a Gazan terrorist while seated at the cafeteria at the Nahal Oz road block at the entrance to the Gaza Strip. The perpetrator was apprehended. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the murder.

Dec 1 93 Shalva Ozana, age 23, and Yitzhak Weinstock, age 19, were shot to death by terrorists from a moving vehicle, while parked on the side of the road to Ramallah because of engine trouble. Weinstock died of his wounds the following morning. Iz a-Din al Kassam claimed responbility for the attack, stating that it was carried out in retaliation for the killing by Israeli forces of Imad Akel, a wanted HAMAS leader in Gaza.

Dec 5 93 David Mashrati, a reserve soldier, was shot and killed by a terrorist attempting to board a bus on route 641 at the Holon junction. The Islamic Jihad Shekaki gorup claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 6 93 Mordechai Lapid and his son Shalom Lapid, age 19, were shot to death by terrorists near Hebron. HAMAS publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 22 93 Eliahu Levin and Meir Mendelovitch were killed by shots fired at their car from a passing vehicle in the Ramallah area. HAMAS claimed responsibility.

Dec 23 93 Anatoly Kolisnikov, an Ashdod resident employed as a relief watchman at a construction site there, was stabbed to death while on duty.

Dec 24 93 Lieut.Col. Meir Mintz, commander of the IDF special forces in the Gaza area, was shot and killed by terrorists in an ambush on his jeep at the T-junction in Gaza. The HAMAS Iz a-Din al Kassam squads publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 31 93 Chaim Weizman and David Bizi were found murdered in a Ramle apartment. ID cards of two Gaza residents were found in the apartment, together with a leaflet of the Popular Front 'Red Eagle' group, claiming responsibility for the murder.

Jan 12 94 Moshe Becker of Rishon Le-Zion was stabbed to death by three Palestinian employees while working in his orchard. The Popular Front claimed responsibility for the murder.

Jan 14 94 Grigory Ivanov was stabbed to death by a terrorist in the industrial zone at the Erez junction, near the Gaza Strip. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 9 94 Ilan Sudri, a taxi driver, was kidnapped and murdered while returning home from work. The Islamic Jihad Shekaki group sent a message to the news agencies claiming responsibility for the murder.

Feb 10 94 Naftali Sahar, a citrus grower, was murdered by blows to his head. His body was found in his orchard near Kibbutz Na'an.

Feb 13 94 Noam Cohen, age 28, member of the General Security Service, was shot and killed in an ambush on his car. Two of his colleagues who were also in the vehicle suffered moderate injuries. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 17 94 Yuval Golan, stabbed on December 29, 1993 by a terrorist near Adarim in the Hebron area, died of his wounds.

Feb 19 94 Zipora Sasson, resident of Ariel and five months pregnant, was killed on the trans-Samaria highway in an ambush by shots fired at her car. The terrorists were members of HAMAS.

Feb 25 94 Sam Eisenstadt, age 80, was assaulted with an axe in the center of Kfar Saba. He died of his wounds shortly afterwards.

Mar 23 94 Victor Lashchiver, employed as a guard at the Income Tax offices in East Jerusalem, was shot and killed near Damascus Gate on his way to work. The Popular Front claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 29 94 Yitzhak Rothenberg, age 70 of Petah Tikva, was attacked on a construction site by two residents of Khan Yunis by axe blows to the head. He died several days later of his wounds. The murderers, apprehended the next day, stated that they carried out the attack in order to clear themselves of suspected collaboration with the Israeli authorities.

Mar 31 94 Yosef Zandani, age 28 of Bnei Ayish, near Gedera, was found murdered in his apartment. Near the body was a leaflet of the DFLP "Red Star", explaining that the murder was carried out in revenge for the shooting of one of its members by an Israeli citizen. The Israeli acted in self-defense.

Apr 6 94 Asher Attia, 48, of Afula, bus driver; Vered Mordechai, 13, of Afula; Maya Elharar, 17, of Afula; Ilana Schreiber, 45, a teacher from Kibbutz Nir David; Meirav Ben-Moshe, 16, of Afula; Ayala Vahaba, 40, a teacher from Afula; and Fadiya Shalabi, 25, of Iksal were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack. Ahuva Cohen Onalla, 37, wounded in the attack, died of her wounds on April 25.

Apr 7 94 Yishai Gadassi, age 32 of Kvutzat Yavne, was shot and killed at a hitchhiking post at the Ashdod junction by a member of HAMAS. The terrorist was killed by bystanders at the scene.

Apr 13 94 Rahamim Mazgauker, 34, of Hadera; David Moyal, 26 of Ramat Gan, an Egged mechanic; Daga Perda, 44, who immigrated from Ethiopia in 1991; Bilha Butin, 49, of Hadera; and Sgt. Ari Perlmutter, 19, of Ir Ovot in the Arava were killed in a suicide bombing attack on a bus in the central bus station of Hadera. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 21 94 The body of officer cadet Shahar Simani, 20, of Ashkelon, was found stabbed to death near the roadside at the village of Beit Hanina, north of Jerusalem. He had been kidnapped while hitchhiking in the south.

May 17 94 Rafael Yairi (Klumfenbert), 36, of Kiryat Arba, and Margalit Ruth Shohat, 48, of Ma'ale Levona, were killed when their car was fired upon by by terrorists in a passing car near Beit Haggai, south of Hebron.

May 20 94 Staff Sgt. Moshe Bukra, 30, and Cpl. Erez Ben-Baruch, 24, were shot dead by HAMAS terrorists at a roadblock one kilometer south of the Erez checkpoint in the Gaza Strip.

Jul 7 94 Sarit Prigal, 17, was shot to death when terrorists opened fire from a passing car near the entrance to Kiryat Arba.

Jul 7 94 The body of Arye Frankenthal, 20, from Moshav Gimzo near Lod, who had left his base in the south the previous day, was found stabbed and shot near the Arab village of Kafr Akab, near Ramallah.

Jul 19 94 Lt. Guy Ovadia, 23, of Kibbutz Yotvata, was fatally wounded in an ambush near Rafiah. HAMAS took responsibility for the attack, saying it was "a response to the massacre at the Erez checkpoint".

Jul 25 94 Border policeman Sgt.-Maj. Jacques Attias, 24, died of his wounds after being shot by Palestinian policemen during the riots at Erez checkpoint on July 17.

Aug 2 94 Yoram Sakuri, 30, of Kiryat Netafim in Samaria, died of stab wounds suffered when a terrorist broke into his home on July 1st.

Aug 14 94 Ron Soval, 18, of Lehavim, north of Beersheba, was shot to death in an ambush near Kissufim junction in the Gaza Strip. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 26 94 Shlomo Kapach, 22, of Holon and Gil Revah, 21, of Bat Yam, elevator technicians, were murdered at a Ramle building site. Israel has requested the extradition of the suspected killers from the Palestinian Authority.

Sep 4 94 Sgt. Victor Shichman, 24, was killed at the Morag junction in the southern Gaza Strip while on patrol, from shots fired from a vehicle bearing Palestinian license plates.

Sep 94 Natasha Ivanov, 32, of Ashdod was strangled to death. In March 2001, a Palestinian arrested for being in Israel illegally, admitted to carrying out the murder in order to gain acceptance into a terrorist organization.

Oct 9 94 Ma'ayan Levy, 19, an off-duty soldier from Moshav Beit Zayit and Samir Mugrabi, 35, from Kafr Akab, in north Jerusalem, were killed in a terrorist attack in the Nahalat Shiva section of downtown Jerusalem. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 14 94 Cpl. Nahshon Wachsman, 20, who had been abducted by HAMAS, was murdered by his captors. Capt. Nir Poraz, 23, was killed in the course of the unsuccessful IDF rescue operation to obtain his release.

Oct 19 94 In a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on Dizengoff Street in Tel-Aviv, 21 Israelis and one Dutch national were killed: Haviv Tishbi, 54, of Tel Aviv; Moshe Gardinger, 83, of Tel Aviv; Pnina Rapaport, 74, of Tel Aviv; Galit Rosen, 23, of Holon; Zippora Ariel, 64, of Tel Aviv; David Lida, 74, of Tel Aviv; Puah Yedgar, 56, of Givatayim; Dalia Ashkenazi, 62, of Tel; Aviv Esther Sharon, 21, of Lod; Ofra Ben-Naim, 33, of Lod; Tamar Karlibach-Sapir, 24, of Moshav Zafaria; Shira Meroz-Kot, 20, of Kibbutz Beit Ha****a; Miriam Adaf, 54, of Sderot; Anat Rosen, 21, of Ra'anana; Salah Ovadia, 52, of Holon; Eliahu Wasserman, 66, of Bat Yam; Alexandra Sapirstein, 55, of Holon; Dr. Pierre Atlas, 56, of Kiryat Ono; Ella Volkov, 21, of Safed; Ayelet Langer-Alkobi, 26, of Kibbutz Yiron; Kochava Biton, 59, of Tel Aviv; Reinier Verbiest, 25, of the Netherlands.

Nov 11 94 Capt. Yehazkel Sapir, 36, of Kfar Sava; Lt. Yotam Rahat, 31, of Tel-Aviv; and Capt. Elad Dror, 24, of Kibbutz Nachson were killed at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip when a Palestinian riding a bicycle detonated explosives strapped to his body. Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge the car bomb killing of Islamic Jihad leader Hani Abed on Nov 2.

Nov 19 94 Sgt.-Maj. Gil Dadon, 26, of Bat Yam, was killed at the army post at Netzarim junction by shots fired from a passing car. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 27 94 Rabbi Amiran Olami, 34, of Otniel was killed near Beit Hagai 10 kms south of Hebron by shots fired from a passing car.

Nov 30 94 Sgt. Liat Gabai, 19, of Afula, was axed to death in the center of Afula.

Jan 6 95 Ofra Felix, 20, of Beit El, a university student, was killed when terrorists opened fire on her car north of Beit El.

Jan 22 95 Two consecutive bombs exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, killing 20 soldiers and one civilian. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. The soldiers killed were: Lt. David Ben-Zino, 20, of Ashdod; Lt. Adi Rosen, 20, of Moshav Bitzaron; Lt. Yuval Tuvya, 22, of Jerusalem; Sgt.-Maj. Anan Kadur, 24, of Daliat al-Carmel; Staff-Sgt. Damian Rosovski, 20, of Kadima; Staff-Sgt. Yehiel Sharvit, 21, of Haifa; Staff-Sgt. Yaron Blum, 20, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Maya Kopstein, 19, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Daniel Tzikuashvili, 19, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Avi Salto, 19, of Rishon Lezion; Sgt. Rafael Mizrahi, 19, of Ramat Gan; Sgt. Eran Gueta, 20, of Ashkelon; Cpl. Soli Mizrahi, 18, of Ramat Ramat Gan; Cpl. David Hasson, 18, of Ashkelon; Cpl. Amir Hirschenson, 18, of Jerusalem; Cpl. Gilad Gaon, 18, of Herzliya; Cpl. Ilie Dagan, 18, of Kochav Yair; Cpl. Eitan Peretz, 18, of Nahariya; and Shabtai Mahpud, 34, of Moshav Tnuvot.
Lt. Eyal Levy, 20, of Ashdod, and Cpl. Yaniv Weiser, 18, of Givatayim, who were seriously wounded in the attacks, later died of their wounds.

Feb 6 95 Yevgeny Gromov, 32, of Ashkelon, a security guard, was killed when terrorists opened fire from a passing car on the Gaza bypass road between Jabalya and Gaza City, as he was escorting a gasoline truck to a Gaza Strip filling station.

Feb 13 95 Rafael Cohen, 35, of Jerusalem, a taxi driver, was fatally stabbed on the Jerusalem-Ma'aleh Adumim road.

Mar 19 95 Nahum Hoss, 32, of Hebron and Yehuda Fartush, 41, of Kiryat Arba, were killed when terrorists fired on an Egged bus near the entrance to Hebron.

Mar 29 95 Police Insp. Nitzan Cohen, 22, of Jerusalem and Sgt.-Maj. Jamal Suwitat from Makr village in Western Galilee were killed when a Palestinian driver rammed his truck into their jeep in a convoy east of the Netzarim junction in Gaza.

Apr 9 95 Staff-Sgt. Yuval Regev, 20, of Holon; Staff-Sgt. Meir Scheinwald, 20, of Safed; Sgt. Itai Diener, 19, of Rishon Lezion; Sgt. Zvi Narbat, 19, of Rishon Lezion; Sgt. Netta Sufrin, 20, of Rishon Lezion; Cpl. Tal Nir, 19, of Kibbutz Miflasim; Sgt. Avraham Arditi, 19, of Jerusalem; and Alisa Flatow, 20, of the United States were killed when a bus was hit by an explosives-laden van near Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jul 18 95 Ohad Bachrach, 18, of Beit El, and Ori Shahor, 20, of Ra'anana, were killed while hiking in Wadi Kelt.

Jul 24 95 Moshe Shkedi, 75, of Ramat Gan; Rahel Tamari, 65, of Tel Aviv; Zviya Cohen, 62, of Tel Aviv; Zahava Oren, 60, of Tel Aviv; Nehama Lubowitz, 61, of Tel Aviv; and Mordechai Tovia, 37, of Tel Aviv were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in Ramat Gan.

Aug 21 95 Rivka Cohen, 26, of Jerusalem; Hannah Naeh, 56, of Jerusalem; Joan Davenney, 46, of Connecticut; and Police Chief Superintendent Noam Eisenman, 35, of Jerusalem were killed in a suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus.

Sep 5 95 Daniel Frei, 28, of Ma'aleh Michmash, was stabbed to death when a terrorist broke into his home at night.

Jan 16 96 Sgt. Yaniv Shimel and Major Oz Tibon, both of Jerusalem, were killed when terrorists fired on their car on the Hebron-Jerusalem road.

Jan 30 96 Staff Sgt. Ehud Tal, 21, of Kibbutz Maoz Haim, was stabbed to death at the liaison office in an army camp south of Jenin.

Feb 25 96 In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 near the Central Bus Station in Jerusalem, 26 were killed (17 civilians and 9 soldiers).
The civilians:
Daniel Biton, 42; Yitzhak Elbaz, 57, Boris Sharpolinsky, 64; Semion Trakashvili, 60; Yitzhak Yakhnis, 54; Peretz Gantz, 61; Anatoly and Jana Kushnirov, 36 and 37; Masuda Amar, 59; Swietlana Gelezniak, 32; Celine Zaguri, 19 - all of Jerusalem; Navon Shabo, 22, of Bnei Brak; Michael Yerigin, 16, of Kibbutz Maabarot; Matthew Eisenfeld, 25 and Sara Duker, 23, of the United States.
Wael Kawasmeh, 23, of East Jerusalem, and Ira Yitzhak Weinstein, 53, of Maaleh Adumim, later died of their wounds.
The soldiers:
Sgt. Yonatan Barnea, 20; St-Sgt. Gavriel Krauss, 24; St.-Sgt. Gadi Shiloni, 22; Cpl. Moshe Reuven, 19; St.-Sgt. Maj. (res.) Arye Barashi, 39; Cpl. Iliya Nimotin, 19; Cpl. Merav Nahum, 19; Sgt. Sharon Hanuka, 19; Arik Gaby, 16 (student in pre-army boarding school) - all of Jerusalem.
HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 25 96 Sgt. Hofit Ayyash, 20, of Ashdod was killed in an explosion set off by a suicide bomber at a hitchhiking post oustide Ashkelon. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 26 96 Flora Yehiel, 28, of Kiryat Ata, was killed when a car was driven into a bus stop at the French Hill junction in Jerusalem.

Mar 3 96 In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, 19 were killed (16 civilians and 3 soldiers).
The civilians:
Maya Birkan, 59; Naima Zargary, 66; Gavriel Shamashvili, 43; Shemtov Sheikh, 63; Anna Shingeloff, 36; Raya Daushvili, 55; George Yonan, 38 - all of Jerusalem; Sarina Angel, 45, of Beit Jalla; Gidi Taspanish, 23, a tourist from Ethiopia; Valerian Krasyon, 44, a tourist from Romania; Dominic Lunca, 29; Daniel Patenka, 33; Marian Grefan, 40; Mirze Gifa, 39; Dimitru Kokarascu, 43 - all Romanian workers.
Imar Ambrose, 51, of Romania, died on March 9.
The soldiers:
Sgt. Yoni Levy, 21, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Haim Amedi, 19, of Jerusalem; Senior NCO Uzi Cohen, 54, border policeman of Jerusalem.

Mar 4 96 Outside Dizengoff Center in Tel-Aviv, a suicide bomber detonated a 20-kilogram nail bomb, killing 13 (12 civilians and 1 soldier):
Bat-Hen Shahak, 15, of Tel Mond; Hadas Dror, 15, of Tel Mond; Kobi Zaharon, 13, of Tel Aviv; Inbar Atiya, 21, of Ramat-Efal; Dan Tversky, 58, of Tel Aviv; Dana Gutman, 14, of Moshav Mishmeret; Yovav Levy, 13, of Tel Aviv; Leah Mizrahi, 60, of Tel Aviv; Tali Gordon, 24, of Givatayim; Rahel Sela, 82, of Tel Aviv; Sylvia Bernstein, 73, of Hod Hasharon; Gail Belkin, 48, of Herzliya; St.-Sgt. Assaf Wachs, 21, of Holon.

May 14 96 David Baum, 17, a yeshiva high school student in Beit El, was killed when terrorists fired at students at a hitchhiking post at Beil El, near Ramallah.

Jun 9 96 Yaron (26) and Efrat (25) Unger, of Kiryat Arba, were killed when terrorists fired on their car near Beit Shemesh.

Jun 16 96 First-Sgt. Meir Alush, 40, an off-duty policeman, was shot and killed in a toy store in the village of Bidiya.

Jun 26 96 Staff Sgt. (Res.) Asher Berdugo, 22, of Kiryat Bialik; Sgt. Ashraf Shibli, 20, of Shibli; and Cpl. (Res.) Ya'acov Turgeman of Rishon Lezion were killed in an ambush along the Jordan River north of Jericho by terrorists who infiltrated from Jordan.

Jul 26 96 Uri Munk, 53, and his daughter-in-law, Rachel Munk, 24, of Moshav Mevo Betar, were killed in a drive-by shooting attack near Beit Shemesh. 30-year-old Ze'ev Munk, Rachel's husband, was critically wounded and died in the hospital the following week.

Dec 11 96 Etta Tzur, 48, and her son Ephraim, 12, were killed when their car was shot at by terrorists near Surda, west of Beit El.

Mar 21 97 Michal Avrahami, 32, Yael Gilad, 32, and Anat Winter-Rosen, 32, were killed when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb on the terrace of a Tel Aviv cafe. 48 people were wounded.

Apr 10 97 The body of IDF Staff-Sgt. Sharon Edri, missing for seven months, was found buried near the West Bank village of Kfar Tzurif. Edri had been kidnapped and murdered by a Hamas terrorist cell in September 1996 while hitchiking to his home in Moshav Zanoah.

Apr 25 97 Hagit Zavitzky, 23, of Kfar Adumim and Liat Kastiel, 23, of Holon were found stabbed to death in Wadi Kelt.

Jul 30 97 16 people were killed and 178 wounded in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem:
Lev Desyatnik, 60, of Jerusalem; Regina Giber, 76, of Jerusalem; Valentina Kovalenko, 67, of Jerusalem; Shmuel Malka, 44, of Mevaseret Zion; David Nasco, 44, of Mevaseret Zion; Muhi A-din Othman, 33, of Abu Ghosh; Simha Fremd, 92, of Jerusalem; Grisha Paskhovitz, 15, of Jerusalem; Leah Stern, 50, of Jerusalem; Rachel Tejgatrio, 80, of Jerusalem; Liliya Zelezniak, 47, of Jerusalem; Shalom (Golan) Zevulun, 52, of Jerusalem; Mark Rabinowitz, 80, of Jerusalem.
Eli Adourian, 49, of Kfar Adumim, died of his wounds on August 11. Ilia Gazrach, 73, of Pisgat Ze'ev, died on August 29. Baruch Ostrovsky, 84, of Jerusalem died on October 3.

Sep 4 97 Five people were killed and 181 wounded in three suicide bombings on the Ben-Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem.
The victims: Yael Botwin, 14; Sivan Zarka, 14; Smadar Elhanan, 14; Rami Kozashvili, 20; and Eliahu Markowitz, 40 - all of Jerusalem.

Nov 19 97 Gabriel Hirschberg, 26, was killed by automatic gunfire in the Old City of Jerusalem.

Jan 6 98 Yael Meivar, 25, died of gunshot wounds sustained in a terrorist attack on Dec 31, 1997 near the settlement of Alei Zahav in Samaria.

Feb 11 98 David Ktorza, 40, of Jerusalem, was stabbed to death near his home.

May 6 98 Haim Kerman, 28, was stabbed to death in the Old City of Jerusalem.

Aug 5 98 Harel Bin-Nun, 18, and Shlomo Liebman, 24, were shot and killed in an ambush by terrorists while on patrol at the Yizhar settlement in Samaria.

Aug 20 98 Rabbi Shlomo Ra'anan, 63, was stabbed to death in the bedroom of his caravan in Hebron.

Oct 9 98 IDF soldier Michal Adato, 19, was stabbed to death at Moshav Tomer in the Jordan Valley.

Oct 14 98 Itamar Doron, 24, was shot to death near Moshav Ora, outside Jerusalem.

Oct 26 98 Danny Vargas, 29, of Kiryat Arba was shot to death in Hebron.

Oct 29 98 Sergeant Alexey Neykov, 19, was killed when a terrorist drove an explosives-laden car into an Israeli army jeep escorting a bus with 40 elementary school students from the settlement of Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip.

Jan 13 99 Sergeant Yehoshua Gavriel, 25, of Ashdod, was killed when terrorists opened fire at the Othniel junction near Hebron.

Aug 7 99 The body of an Israeli, shot in the head, was found in a burned vehicle.

Aug 30 99 Yehiel Finfeter, 25, of Kiryat Motzkin, and Sharon Steinmetz, 21, of Haifa, were murdered whlie hiking in the Megiddo region.

Heh, heh, well you asked... ;)

Now, call me crazy, but it appears that there's a pattern here. If there truly is nothing in the Koran to support all this Jihadist action - which must directly involve thousands of individual Muslims willing to kill - and the monetary support of tens of thousands more willing to pay for it- where is this coming from? How can these "deeply religious" people find justification to violate their religion on such a scale?

It's because they dont' believe they're violating it...they believe they are following the Koran to the letter. The more moderate Muslims are simply glossing over the unappealing sections of the Koran. Which is the entire thrust of the article at the beginning of the thread...the necessity of Islam to move forward past what is actually written in the Koran & into the modern era of human rights. He is saying they are in conflict, and I agree.

[Seoulstriker]

I'm saying, you can take perverted thoughts from either book. You said before that the Koran is not interpretated, but then explain why there are various sects if they all supposedly and literally believe the exact same thing?


The Quran is only in the Arabic language. 1/6 of the Muslim population knows Arabic. There is a whole series of individuals who do their own language interpretations of the Quran. There are probably a hundred different interpretations. But they are interpreting the Quran for their own personal reasons. The Quran is extremely specific in what it commands its followers to do. People are just "interpreting" that and saying "no, that doesn't matter, Allah didn't really mean that when he spoke to Muhammad", etc.

For those who read the Quran in the native Arabic tongue, there is no mistake in meaning for what it commands. "Cut off the heads of the non-believers" means exactly that. There is nothing you can do to "interpret" that besides saying that it doesn't belong in the Quran.

[Secret Squirrel]

Ok, then lets cut away the fat and get to the heart of the matter...when was the last time a Muslim physically tried to kill you?Well, as it happens, I do not live amongst or have dealings with Muslims, so even if they were inclined to harm me, they have not had that opportunity. (edit; not that I'm purposely avoiding them...I live in the Midwest & simply haven't seen any in the vicinity)

But here's a partial list of other non-believers who do live amongst or near them, and were killed by Jihadists, just over the last 10 years or so;


1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.
1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, kills 19 Americans.
1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in East Africa; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC, Pentagon attack. Total dead 3,044.
2002 (Apr.): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia leaves 21 dead, including 14 German tourists.
2002 (May): Car explodes outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
2002 (June): Bomb explodes outside American Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, kill 202, mostly Australian citizens.
2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, kills 16.
2003 (May): Suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
2003 (May): Four bombs kill 24 people, targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
2003 (Aug.): Suicide car bomb kills 12, injures 150, at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
2003 (Aug.): Suicide car bomb kills 12, injures 150, at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
2003 (Nov.): Explosions rock a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia housing compound killing 17.
2003 (Nov.): Suicide car bombers simultaneously attack two synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
2004 (Mar.): Ten terrorists bombs exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,800.
Sep 24 93 Yigal Vaknin was stabbed to death in an orchard near the trailer home where he lived near the village of Basra. A squad of the HAMAS's Iz a-Din al Kassam claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 9 93 Dror Forer and Aran Bachar were murdered by terrorists in Wadi Kelt in the Judean Desert. The Popular Front and the Islamic Jihad 'Al-Aqsa Squads' each publicly claimed responsibility.

Oct 24 93 Two IDF soldiers, Staff Sgt. (res.) Ehud Rot, age 35, and Sgt. Ilan Levi, age 23, were killed by a HAMAS Iz a-Din al Kassam squad. The two entered a Subaru with Israeli license plates outside a Jewish settlement in the Gaza Strip, whose passengers were apparently terrorists disguised as Israelis. Following a brief struggle, the soldiers were shot at close range and killed. Hamas publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 29 93 Chaim Mizrahi, resident of Beit-El, was kidnapped by three terrorists from a poultry farm near Ramallah. He was murdered and his body burned. Three Fatah members were convicted of the murder on July 27, 1994.

Nov 7 93 Efraim Ayubi of Kfar Darom, Rabbi Chaim Druckman's personal driver, was shot to death by terrorists near Hebron. HAMAS publicly claimed responsibility for the murder.

Nov 9 93 Salman 'Id el-Hawashla, age 38, an Israeli Bedouin of the Abu Rekaik tribe who was driving a car with Israeli plates, was killed by three armed men driving a truck hijacked from the Gaza municipality, in a deliberate head-on collision.

Nov 17 93 Sgt. 1st Cl. Chaim Darina, age 37, was stabbed by a Gazan terrorist while seated at the cafeteria at the Nahal Oz road block at the entrance to the Gaza Strip. The perpetrator was apprehended. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the murder.

Dec 1 93 Shalva Ozana, age 23, and Yitzhak Weinstock, age 19, were shot to death by terrorists from a moving vehicle, while parked on the side of the road to Ramallah because of engine trouble. Weinstock died of his wounds the following morning. Iz a-Din al Kassam claimed responbility for the attack, stating that it was carried out in retaliation for the killing by Israeli forces of Imad Akel, a wanted HAMAS leader in Gaza.

Dec 5 93 David Mashrati, a reserve soldier, was shot and killed by a terrorist attempting to board a bus on route 641 at the Holon junction. The Islamic Jihad Shekaki gorup claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 6 93 Mordechai Lapid and his son Shalom Lapid, age 19, were shot to death by terrorists near Hebron. HAMAS publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 22 93 Eliahu Levin and Meir Mendelovitch were killed by shots fired at their car from a passing vehicle in the Ramallah area. HAMAS claimed responsibility.

Dec 23 93 Anatoly Kolisnikov, an Ashdod resident employed as a relief watchman at a construction site there, was stabbed to death while on duty.

Dec 24 93 Lieut.Col. Meir Mintz, commander of the IDF special forces in the Gaza area, was shot and killed by terrorists in an ambush on his jeep at the T-junction in Gaza. The HAMAS Iz a-Din al Kassam squads publicly claimed responsibility for the attack.

Dec 31 93 Chaim Weizman and David Bizi were found murdered in a Ramle apartment. ID cards of two Gaza residents were found in the apartment, together with a leaflet of the Popular Front 'Red Eagle' group, claiming responsibility for the murder.

Jan 12 94 Moshe Becker of Rishon Le-Zion was stabbed to death by three Palestinian employees while working in his orchard. The Popular Front claimed responsibility for the murder.

Jan 14 94 Grigory Ivanov was stabbed to death by a terrorist in the industrial zone at the Erez junction, near the Gaza Strip. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 9 94 Ilan Sudri, a taxi driver, was kidnapped and murdered while returning home from work. The Islamic Jihad Shekaki group sent a message to the news agencies claiming responsibility for the murder.

Feb 10 94 Naftali Sahar, a citrus grower, was murdered by blows to his head. His body was found in his orchard near Kibbutz Na'an.

Feb 13 94 Noam Cohen, age 28, member of the General Security Service, was shot and killed in an ambush on his car. Two of his colleagues who were also in the vehicle suffered moderate injuries. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 17 94 Yuval Golan, stabbed on December 29, 1993 by a terrorist near Adarim in the Hebron area, died of his wounds.

Feb 19 94 Zipora Sasson, resident of Ariel and five months pregnant, was killed on the trans-Samaria highway in an ambush by shots fired at her car. The terrorists were members of HAMAS.

Feb 25 94 Sam Eisenstadt, age 80, was assaulted with an axe in the center of Kfar Saba. He died of his wounds shortly afterwards.

Mar 23 94 Victor Lashchiver, employed as a guard at the Income Tax offices in East Jerusalem, was shot and killed near Damascus Gate on his way to work. The Popular Front claimed responsibility for the attack.

Mar 29 94 Yitzhak Rothenberg, age 70 of Petah Tikva, was attacked on a construction site by two residents of Khan Yunis by axe blows to the head. He died several days later of his wounds. The murderers, apprehended the next day, stated that they carried out the attack in order to clear themselves of suspected collaboration with the Israeli authorities.

Mar 31 94 Yosef Zandani, age 28 of Bnei Ayish, near Gedera, was found murdered in his apartment. Near the body was a leaflet of the DFLP "Red Star", explaining that the murder was carried out in revenge for the shooting of one of its members by an Israeli citizen. The Israeli acted in self-defense.

Apr 6 94 Asher Attia, 48, of Afula, bus driver; Vered Mordechai, 13, of Afula; Maya Elharar, 17, of Afula; Ilana Schreiber, 45, a teacher from Kibbutz Nir David; Meirav Ben-Moshe, 16, of Afula; Ayala Vahaba, 40, a teacher from Afula; and Fadiya Shalabi, 25, of Iksal were killed in a car-bomb attack on a bus in the center of Afula. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack. Ahuva Cohen Onalla, 37, wounded in the attack, died of her wounds on April 25.

Apr 7 94 Yishai Gadassi, age 32 of Kvutzat Yavne, was shot and killed at a hitchhiking post at the Ashdod junction by a member of HAMAS. The terrorist was killed by bystanders at the scene.

Apr 13 94 Rahamim Mazgauker, 34, of Hadera; David Moyal, 26 of Ramat Gan, an Egged mechanic; Daga Perda, 44, who immigrated from Ethiopia in 1991; Bilha Butin, 49, of Hadera; and Sgt. Ari Perlmutter, 19, of Ir Ovot in the Arava were killed in a suicide bombing attack on a bus in the central bus station of Hadera. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Apr 21 94 The body of officer cadet Shahar Simani, 20, of Ashkelon, was found stabbed to death near the roadside at the village of Beit Hanina, north of Jerusalem. He had been kidnapped while hitchhiking in the south.

May 17 94 Rafael Yairi (Klumfenbert), 36, of Kiryat Arba, and Margalit Ruth Shohat, 48, of Ma'ale Levona, were killed when their car was fired upon by by terrorists in a passing car near Beit Haggai, south of Hebron.

May 20 94 Staff Sgt. Moshe Bukra, 30, and Cpl. Erez Ben-Baruch, 24, were shot dead by HAMAS terrorists at a roadblock one kilometer south of the Erez checkpoint in the Gaza Strip.

Jul 7 94 Sarit Prigal, 17, was shot to death when terrorists opened fire from a passing car near the entrance to Kiryat Arba.

Jul 7 94 The body of Arye Frankenthal, 20, from Moshav Gimzo near Lod, who had left his base in the south the previous day, was found stabbed and shot near the Arab village of Kafr Akab, near Ramallah.

Jul 19 94 Lt. Guy Ovadia, 23, of Kibbutz Yotvata, was fatally wounded in an ambush near Rafiah. HAMAS took responsibility for the attack, saying it was "a response to the massacre at the Erez checkpoint".

Jul 25 94 Border policeman Sgt.-Maj. Jacques Attias, 24, died of his wounds after being shot by Palestinian policemen during the riots at Erez checkpoint on July 17.

Aug 2 94 Yoram Sakuri, 30, of Kiryat Netafim in Samaria, died of stab wounds suffered when a terrorist broke into his home on July 1st.

Aug 14 94 Ron Soval, 18, of Lehavim, north of Beersheba, was shot to death in an ambush near Kissufim junction in the Gaza Strip. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aug 26 94 Shlomo Kapach, 22, of Holon and Gil Revah, 21, of Bat Yam, elevator technicians, were murdered at a Ramle building site. Israel has requested the extradition of the suspected killers from the Palestinian Authority.

Sep 4 94 Sgt. Victor Shichman, 24, was killed at the Morag junction in the southern Gaza Strip while on patrol, from shots fired from a vehicle bearing Palestinian license plates.

Sep 94 Natasha Ivanov, 32, of Ashdod was strangled to death. In March 2001, a Palestinian arrested for being in Israel illegally, admitted to carrying out the murder in order to gain acceptance into a terrorist organization.

Oct 9 94 Ma'ayan Levy, 19, an off-duty soldier from Moshav Beit Zayit and Samir Mugrabi, 35, from Kafr Akab, in north Jerusalem, were killed in a terrorist attack in the Nahalat Shiva section of downtown Jerusalem. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Oct 14 94 Cpl. Nahshon Wachsman, 20, who had been abducted by HAMAS, was murdered by his captors. Capt. Nir Poraz, 23, was killed in the course of the unsuccessful IDF rescue operation to obtain his release.

Oct 19 94 In a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on Dizengoff Street in Tel-Aviv, 21 Israelis and one Dutch national were killed: Haviv Tishbi, 54, of Tel Aviv; Moshe Gardinger, 83, of Tel Aviv; Pnina Rapaport, 74, of Tel Aviv; Galit Rosen, 23, of Holon; Zippora Ariel, 64, of Tel Aviv; David Lida, 74, of Tel Aviv; Puah Yedgar, 56, of Givatayim; Dalia Ashkenazi, 62, of Tel; Aviv Esther Sharon, 21, of Lod; Ofra Ben-Naim, 33, of Lod; Tamar Karlibach-Sapir, 24, of Moshav Zafaria; Shira Meroz-Kot, 20, of Kibbutz Beit Ha****a; Miriam Adaf, 54, of Sderot; Anat Rosen, 21, of Ra'anana; Salah Ovadia, 52, of Holon; Eliahu Wasserman, 66, of Bat Yam; Alexandra Sapirstein, 55, of Holon; Dr. Pierre Atlas, 56, of Kiryat Ono; Ella Volkov, 21, of Safed; Ayelet Langer-Alkobi, 26, of Kibbutz Yiron; Kochava Biton, 59, of Tel Aviv; Reinier Verbiest, 25, of the Netherlands.

Nov 11 94 Capt. Yehazkel Sapir, 36, of Kfar Sava; Lt. Yotam Rahat, 31, of Tel-Aviv; and Capt. Elad Dror, 24, of Kibbutz Nachson were killed at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip when a Palestinian riding a bicycle detonated explosives strapped to his body. Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge the car bomb killing of Islamic Jihad leader Hani Abed on Nov 2.

Nov 19 94 Sgt.-Maj. Gil Dadon, 26, of Bat Yam, was killed at the army post at Netzarim junction by shots fired from a passing car. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nov 27 94 Rabbi Amiran Olami, 34, of Otniel was killed near Beit Hagai 10 kms south of Hebron by shots fired from a passing car.

Nov 30 94 Sgt. Liat Gabai, 19, of Afula, was axed to death in the center of Afula.

Jan 6 95 Ofra Felix, 20, of Beit El, a university student, was killed when terrorists opened fire on her car north of Beit El.

Jan 22 95 Two consecutive bombs exploded at the Beit Lid junction near Netanya, killing 20 soldiers and one civilian. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. The soldiers killed were: Lt. David Ben-Zino, 20, of Ashdod; Lt. Adi Rosen, 20, of Moshav Bitzaron; Lt. Yuval Tuvya, 22, of Jerusalem; Sgt.-Maj. Anan Kadur, 24, of Daliat al-Carmel; Staff-Sgt. Damian Rosovski, 20, of Kadima; Staff-Sgt. Yehiel Sharvit, 21, of Haifa; Staff-Sgt. Yaron Blum, 20, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Maya Kopstein, 19, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Daniel Tzikuashvili, 19, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Avi Salto, 19, of Rishon Lezion; Sgt. Rafael Mizrahi, 19, of Ramat Gan; Sgt. Eran Gueta, 20, of Ashkelon; Cpl. Soli Mizrahi, 18, of Ramat Ramat Gan; Cpl. David Hasson, 18, of Ashkelon; Cpl. Amir Hirschenson, 18, of Jerusalem; Cpl. Gilad Gaon, 18, of Herzliya; Cpl. Ilie Dagan, 18, of Kochav Yair; Cpl. Eitan Peretz, 18, of Nahariya; and Shabtai Mahpud, 34, of Moshav Tnuvot.
Lt. Eyal Levy, 20, of Ashdod, and Cpl. Yaniv Weiser, 18, of Givatayim, who were seriously wounded in the attacks, later died of their wounds.

Feb 6 95 Yevgeny Gromov, 32, of Ashkelon, a security guard, was killed when terrorists opened fire from a passing car on the Gaza bypass road between Jabalya and Gaza City, as he was escorting a gasoline truck to a Gaza Strip filling station.

Feb 13 95 Rafael Cohen, 35, of Jerusalem, a taxi driver, was fatally stabbed on the Jerusalem-Ma'aleh Adumim road.

Mar 19 95 Nahum Hoss, 32, of Hebron and Yehuda Fartush, 41, of Kiryat Arba, were killed when terrorists fired on an Egged bus near the entrance to Hebron.

Mar 29 95 Police Insp. Nitzan Cohen, 22, of Jerusalem and Sgt.-Maj. Jamal Suwitat from Makr village in Western Galilee were killed when a Palestinian driver rammed his truck into their jeep in a convoy east of the Netzarim junction in Gaza.

Apr 9 95 Staff-Sgt. Yuval Regev, 20, of Holon; Staff-Sgt. Meir Scheinwald, 20, of Safed; Sgt. Itai Diener, 19, of Rishon Lezion; Sgt. Zvi Narbat, 19, of Rishon Lezion; Sgt. Netta Sufrin, 20, of Rishon Lezion; Cpl. Tal Nir, 19, of Kibbutz Miflasim; Sgt. Avraham Arditi, 19, of Jerusalem; and Alisa Flatow, 20, of the United States were killed when a bus was hit by an explosives-laden van near Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Jul 18 95 Ohad Bachrach, 18, of Beit El, and Ori Shahor, 20, of Ra'anana, were killed while hiking in Wadi Kelt.

Jul 24 95 Moshe Shkedi, 75, of Ramat Gan; Rahel Tamari, 65, of Tel Aviv; Zviya Cohen, 62, of Tel Aviv; Zahava Oren, 60, of Tel Aviv; Nehama Lubowitz, 61, of Tel Aviv; and Mordechai Tovia, 37, of Tel Aviv were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in Ramat Gan.

Aug 21 95 Rivka Cohen, 26, of Jerusalem; Hannah Naeh, 56, of Jerusalem; Joan Davenney, 46, of Connecticut; and Police Chief Superintendent Noam Eisenman, 35, of Jerusalem were killed in a suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus.

Sep 5 95 Daniel Frei, 28, of Ma'aleh Michmash, was stabbed to death when a terrorist broke into his home at night.

Jan 16 96 Sgt. Yaniv Shimel and Major Oz Tibon, both of Jerusalem, were killed when terrorists fired on their car on the Hebron-Jerusalem road.

Jan 30 96 Staff Sgt. Ehud Tal, 21, of Kibbutz Maoz Haim, was stabbed to death at the liaison office in an army camp south of Jenin.

Feb 25 96 In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 near the Central Bus Station in Jerusalem, 26 were killed (17 civilians and 9 soldiers).
The civilians:
Daniel Biton, 42; Yitzhak Elbaz, 57, Boris Sharpolinsky, 64; Semion Trakashvili, 60; Yitzhak Yakhnis, 54; Peretz Gantz, 61; Anatoly and Jana Kushnirov, 36 and 37; Masuda Amar, 59; Swietlana Gelezniak, 32; Celine Zaguri, 19 - all of Jerusalem; Navon Shabo, 22, of Bnei Brak; Michael Yerigin, 16, of Kibbutz Maabarot; Matthew Eisenfeld, 25 and Sara Duker, 23, of the United States.
Wael Kawasmeh, 23, of East Jerusalem, and Ira Yitzhak Weinstein, 53, of Maaleh Adumim, later died of their wounds.
The soldiers:
Sgt. Yonatan Barnea, 20; St-Sgt. Gavriel Krauss, 24; St.-Sgt. Gadi Shiloni, 22; Cpl. Moshe Reuven, 19; St.-Sgt. Maj. (res.) Arye Barashi, 39; Cpl. Iliya Nimotin, 19; Cpl. Merav Nahum, 19; Sgt. Sharon Hanuka, 19; Arik Gaby, 16 (student in pre-army boarding school) - all of Jerusalem.
HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 25 96 Sgt. Hofit Ayyash, 20, of Ashdod was killed in an explosion set off by a suicide bomber at a hitchhiking post oustide Ashkelon. HAMAS claimed responsibility for the attack.

Feb 26 96 Flora Yehiel, 28, of Kiryat Ata, was killed when a car was driven into a bus stop at the French Hill junction in Jerusalem.

Mar 3 96 In a suicide bombing of bus No. 18 on Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, 19 were killed (16 civilians and 3 soldiers).
The civilians:
Maya Birkan, 59; Naima Zargary, 66; Gavriel Shamashvili, 43; Shemtov Sheikh, 63; Anna Shingeloff, 36; Raya Daushvili, 55; George Yonan, 38 - all of Jerusalem; Sarina Angel, 45, of Beit Jalla; Gidi Taspanish, 23, a tourist from Ethiopia; Valerian Krasyon, 44, a tourist from Romania; Dominic Lunca, 29; Daniel Patenka, 33; Marian Grefan, 40; Mirze Gifa, 39; Dimitru Kokarascu, 43 - all Romanian workers.
Imar Ambrose, 51, of Romania, died on March 9.
The soldiers:
Sgt. Yoni Levy, 21, of Jerusalem; Sgt. Haim Amedi, 19, of Jerusalem; Senior NCO Uzi Cohen, 54, border policeman of Jerusalem.

Mar 4 96 Outside Dizengoff Center in Tel-Aviv, a suicide bomber detonated a 20-kilogram nail bomb, killing 13 (12 civilians and 1 soldier):
Bat-Hen Shahak, 15, of Tel Mond; Hadas Dror, 15, of Tel Mond; Kobi Zaharon, 13, of Tel Aviv; Inbar Atiya, 21, of Ramat-Efal; Dan Tversky, 58, of Tel Aviv; Dana Gutman, 14, of Moshav Mishmeret; Yovav Levy, 13, of Tel Aviv; Leah Mizrahi, 60, of Tel Aviv; Tali Gordon, 24, of Givatayim; Rahel Sela, 82, of Tel Aviv; Sylvia Bernstein, 73, of Hod Hasharon; Gail Belkin, 48, of Herzliya; St.-Sgt. Assaf Wachs, 21, of Holon.

May 14 96 David Baum, 17, a yeshiva high school student in Beit El, was killed when terrorists fired at students at a hitchhiking post at Beil El, near Ramallah.

Jun 9 96 Yaron (26) and Efrat (25) Unger, of Kiryat Arba, were killed when terrorists fired on their car near Beit Shemesh.

Jun 16 96 First-Sgt. Meir Alush, 40, an off-duty policeman, was shot and killed in a toy store in the village of Bidiya.

Jun 26 96 Staff Sgt. (Res.) Asher Berdugo, 22, of Kiryat Bialik; Sgt. Ashraf Shibli, 20, of Shibli; and Cpl. (Res.) Ya'acov Turgeman of Rishon Lezion were killed in an ambush along the Jordan River north of Jericho by terrorists who infiltrated from Jordan.

Jul 26 96 Uri Munk, 53, and his daughter-in-law, Rachel Munk, 24, of Moshav Mevo Betar, were killed in a drive-by shooting attack near Beit Shemesh. 30-year-old Ze'ev Munk, Rachel's husband, was critically wounded and died in the hospital the following week.

Dec 11 96 Etta Tzur, 48, and her son Ephraim, 12, were killed when their car was shot at by terrorists near Surda, west of Beit El.

Mar 21 97 Michal Avrahami, 32, Yael Gilad, 32, and Anat Winter-Rosen, 32, were killed when a suicide bomber detonated a bomb on the terrace of a Tel Aviv cafe. 48 people were wounded.

Apr 10 97 The body of IDF Staff-Sgt. Sharon Edri, missing for seven months, was found buried near the West Bank village of Kfar Tzurif. Edri had been kidnapped and murdered by a Hamas terrorist cell in September 1996 while hitchiking to his home in Moshav Zanoah.

Apr 25 97 Hagit Zavitzky, 23, of Kfar Adumim and Liat Kastiel, 23, of Holon were found stabbed to death in Wadi Kelt.

Jul 30 97 16 people were killed and 178 wounded in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem:
Lev Desyatnik, 60, of Jerusalem; Regina Giber, 76, of Jerusalem; Valentina Kovalenko, 67, of Jerusalem; Shmuel Malka, 44, of Mevaseret Zion; David Nasco, 44, of Mevaseret Zion; Muhi A-din Othman, 33, of Abu Ghosh; Simha Fremd, 92, of Jerusalem; Grisha Paskhovitz, 15, of Jerusalem; Leah Stern, 50, of Jerusalem; Rachel Tejgatrio, 80, of Jerusalem; Liliya Zelezniak, 47, of Jerusalem; Shalom (Golan) Zevulun, 52, of Jerusalem; Mark Rabinowitz, 80, of Jerusalem.
Eli Adourian, 49, of Kfar Adumim, died of his wounds on August 11. Ilia Gazrach, 73, of Pisgat Ze'ev, died on August 29. Baruch Ostrovsky, 84, of Jerusalem died on October 3.

Sep 4 97 Five people were killed and 181 wounded in three suicide bombings on the Ben-Yehuda pedestrian mall in Jerusalem.
The victims: Yael Botwin, 14; Sivan Zarka, 14; Smadar Elhanan, 14; Rami Kozashvili, 20; and Eliahu Markowitz, 40 - all of Jerusalem.

Nov 19 97 Gabriel Hirschberg, 26, was killed by automatic gunfire in the Old City of Jerusalem.

Jan 6 98 Yael Meivar, 25, died of gunshot wounds sustained in a terrorist attack on Dec 31, 1997 near the settlement of Alei Zahav in Samaria.

Feb 11 98 David Ktorza, 40, of Jerusalem, was stabbed to death near his home.

May 6 98 Haim Kerman, 28, was stabbed to death in the Old City of Jerusalem.

Aug 5 98 Harel Bin-Nun, 18, and Shlomo Liebman, 24, were shot and killed in an ambush by terrorists while on patrol at the Yizhar settlement in Samaria.

Aug 20 98 Rabbi Shlomo Ra'anan, 63, was stabbed to death in the bedroom of his caravan in Hebron.

Oct 9 98 IDF soldier Michal Adato, 19, was stabbed to death at Moshav Tomer in the Jordan Valley.

Oct 14 98 Itamar Doron, 24, was shot to death near Moshav Ora, outside Jerusalem.

Oct 26 98 Danny Vargas, 29, of Kiryat Arba was shot to death in Hebron.

Oct 29 98 Sergeant Alexey Neykov, 19, was killed when a terrorist drove an explosives-laden car into an Israeli army jeep escorting a bus with 40 elementary school students from the settlement of Kfar Darom in the Gaza Strip.

Jan 13 99 Sergeant Yehoshua Gavriel, 25, of Ashdod, was killed when terrorists opened fire at the Othniel junction near Hebron.

Aug 7 99 The body of an Israeli, shot in the head, was found in a burned vehicle.

Aug 30 99 Yehiel Finfeter, 25, of Kiryat Motzkin, and Sharon Steinmetz, 21, of Haifa, were murdered whlie hiking in the Megiddo region.

Heh, heh, well you asked... ;)

Now, call me crazy, but it appears that there's a pattern here. If there truly is nothing in the Koran to support all this Jihadist action - which must directly involve thousands of individual Muslims willing to kill - and the monetary support of tens of thousands more willing to pay for it- where is this coming from? How can these "deeply religious" people find justification to violate their religion on such a scale?

It's because they dont' believe they're violating it...they believe they are following the Koran to the letter. The more moderate Muslims are simply glossing over the unappealing sections of the Koran. Which is the entire thrust of the article at the beginning of the thread...the necessity of Islam to move forward past what is actually written in the Koran & into the modern era of human rights. He is saying they are in conflict, and I agree.

are they muslims first or terrorists? And i still cant see how you can generalize an entire religions as willing and wanting to kill "infidels". The examples you post are meaningless when held up against scrutiny instead of taken as "umm duh dem der peoples is gonna kill us, come joe, grab the white sheets and lets kill dem all first".

[Secret Squirrel]

I'm saying, you can take perverted thoughts from either book. You said before that the Koran is not interpretated, but then explain why there are various sects if they all supposedly and literally believe the exact same thing?


The Quran is only in the Arabic language. 1/6 of the Muslim population knows Arabic. There is a whole series of individuals who do their own language interpretations of the Quran. There are probably a hundred different interpretations. But they are interpreting the Quran for their own personal reasons. The Quran is extremely specific in what it commands its followers to do. People are just "interpreting" that and saying "no, that doesn't matter, Allah didn't really mean that when he spoke to Muhammad", etc.

For those who read the Quran in the native Arabic tongue, there is no mistake in meaning for what it commands. "Cut off the heads of the non-believers" means exactly that. There is nothing you can do to "interpret" that besides saying that it doesn't belong in the Quran.

so we should kill all the muslims first? Tell me, what was the larger historical context at the time when the Koran was written (well over the 22 year period)? Oh gee, could that be your answer as to why some sections of that book are rather violent? :cantbeli:

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Well that's disappointing. Judging by his last two posts, it's pretty clear that SS isn't interested in conducting a rational argument on the salient points. Putting words in people's mouths and invoking racism is useless and a waste of time. :roll:

So - I'll just let my posts speak for themselves, and go masturbate furiously for a few hours.

For those with an interest who may not know the score- heck, let the Koran speak for itself as well. Read one. No spin - no agenda - no sweet, sweet frosting of interpretation - just read it and see what it says for yourself. Fair enough.

Now then, where's my hand cream & 8x10 of Margaret Thatcher riding a bull.......

[Trigger]

Now then, where's my hand cream & 8x10 of Margaret Thatcher riding a bull.......

Dude, you rock. woot

[Beowulf]

SS I don't think he is saying that Islam is inherently evil, but rather that it is oriented towards intolerance.

That is to say that the Quran is more readily used to preach intolerance than say the teachings of the new testament.

Suppose a leader wanted to get citizens minds off of a lack of liberty, what better way than to blame it upon the wealthy and culturally dominant west via moral highground. I.E. Immoral,wealthy,fat,MTV watching, lecherous Americans are to blame for Egypts problems b/c it doesn't give enough money. Besides Allah says we should kill the infidel.

That's not to say that the Bible cannot be manipulated in a similar way, but rather that the Quran is much more readily so.


2sheds? Am I close?

[Secret Squirrel]

Well that's disappointing. Judging by his last two posts, it's pretty clear that SS isn't interested in conducting a rational argument on the salient points. Putting words in people's mouths and invoking racism is useless and a waste of time. :roll:

So - I'll just let my posts speak for themselves, and go masturbate furiously for a few hours.

For those with an interest who may not know the score- heck, let the Koran speak for itself as well. Read one. No spin - no agenda - no sweet, sweet frosting of interpretation - just read it and see what it says for yourself. Fair enough.

Now then, where's my hand cream & 8x10 of Margaret Thatcher riding a bull.......

well lets see what you wrote...


In fact, it directs Muslims to deceive we non-believers in an attempt to gain our confidence. Nothing like walking voluntarily into the jaws of the tiger, eh?

Hrm, you're assuming all Muslims follow every section of the Koran to the letter. Wouldnt this is a point only supported by the fundamentalists? Or should be we afraid of all Muslims?


Those Bible quotes are more relevant to Judaism. All of them come from the Old Testament, which is used mainly by the Jewish religion. Christians tend to go to the New testament more than the Old. Christians use the Old more for historical, prophesies, geneologies.

So Muslims arent allowed this luxory? Each sect and group, including Radial Islam which can be changed with fatwas, must believe and practice the entire Koran?


The author of the article is basically saying that Islam has a serious PR problem in that it is perceived to bee "too strict" by modern standards, and specifically does not incorporate modern notions of human rights. A literal reading of the Koran leaves one somewhat shell-shocked.

exactly like a literal reading of the bible can leave someone shell-shocked. But christianity, is allow to pick and choose and interpret? So this only works one way?


Also...somebody mentioned that the Koran was written over a long period of time. Not so, if Islamic tradition is to be believed. The Koran (literally meaning "recital) was supposedly dictated directly by God through Gabriel to Mohammed , as he wandered around in the desert. It remained an oral tradition during Mohammed's lifetime, then was completely transcribed (written down) before his death, and has supposedly not changed significantly since then.

Over 22 years. Some scholars who studied it say it's been changed and interpretated much like the bible has. It's dated circa 610 CE. And yes, I believe the year has a lot to do with the message.


How do you reconcile a Muslim preacher saying "we must all live together in harmony" at the Mosque, when the guys reading along in the Koran see "you must slay the Infidels".

I assume you've been in a mosque and you've witnessed this? Or as you just guessing? Do you know how various "preachers" from whatever group answers questions about the violent aspects of the Koran? Or again are you just assuming because its commanded that any good faithly muslim must follow it?


No, it's not. It's a story.

Is the story of Noah's Ark an instruction for us to all gather animals together & build a boat?

Rubbish. I'm no big fan of the Bible in particular... but you're really grasping at straws here.

Ok, so if the bible is a collection of stories, how exactly do we learn anything from it? Hrm, could it be that preachers interprete the stories? Could theology play a role, and whats the big book for christian theology? Could it be the bible? I suppose no one was ever put to death in the name of Christianity? Certainly not any heretics. But of course you'd say they pervert religion to provide fodder for their witch hunt. Hrm, couldnt you say the same thing about terrorists who hold up their religion as a reason for killing?

You presented a long list of people killed by terrorists. Why? Should someone post a long list of people killed in the name of Christ? What does it prove? Can murder only be characteristic of a religion? What do all the other muslim groups say about the murder?


It's because they dont' believe they're violating it...they believe they are following the Koran to the letter. The more moderate Muslims are simply glossing over the unappealing sections of the Koran.

So they justify their actions because of their religion. And of course no christians or lunitics have ever done this...certainly not that lady who drowned her kids "in the name of God". I guess the moderate muslims arent good muslims if they arent out killing infidels?

Maybe you should have a look at http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/cib/2001-02/02cib07.htm#major


At the end of the day, however, it is really not difficult to provide suitable correctives for glib negative generalisations. Whatever one's personal religious beliefs or unbeliefs, the Holy Qur'an and the Christian Scriptures each give the lie to those who maintain that either Islam or Christianity-however misrepresented through those ruled by hate, prejudice or secular ambition-truly countenance atrocities and inhumanity.

Keep to forgiveness (O Muhammad), and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant.(27)

So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.(28)

[Kilgor]

Look at Saudi arabia, the birthplace of Islam.

Whats human rights like there.?

[UoUo]

Ok people...stop the crap..

Muslims : Bad

Jews : good

Zionist : evil

[Midtown]

http://69.44.62.237/~jay/rps/16.jpg
Saddam:
Ask Aziz, he knows

[Tane Angle]

Look at Saudi arabia, the birthplace of Islam.

Whats human rights like there.?

Look at Iraq, the "birthplace of civilization."

What human rights existed there not long ago (never mind the prison abuse)?

Look at sub-Saharan Africa, the birthplace of the species.

What human rights exist there today?

I'm not saying Saudi Arabia's abuses are ok, because they're not, but I can't easily think badly of Muslims because the religion came about in Saudia Arabia. Otherwise, I'd have to think badly of civilizations and our species too, no?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Kilgor]

It seems the only places that human rights are protected in Islamic cultures are in democracies and secular nations.

Where there is no separation of church and state, Like Iran, saudi arabia etc, there is gross human rights abuses.

How many Islamic cultures are democratic too ? Hardly any...

[ibstolidude]

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?


No, it's not. It's a story.

Is the story of Noah's Ark an instruction for us to all gather animals together & build a boat?

Rubbish. I'm no big fan of the Bible in particular... but you're really grasping at straws here.

Ok, then lets cut away the fat and get to the heart of the matter...when was the last time a Muslim physically tried to kill you?

heh...does indirect fire count?
What about direct fire or better, does eating nasty disease-ridden fecal contaiminated foods count?

[Beowulf]

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?


No, it's not. It's a story.

Is the story of Noah's Ark an instruction for us to all gather animals together & build a boat?

Rubbish. I'm no big fan of the Bible in particular... but you're really grasping at straws here.

Ok, then lets cut away the fat and get to the heart of the matter...when was the last time a Muslim physically tried to kill you?

heh...does indirect fire count?
What about direct fire or better, does eating nasty disease-ridden fecal contaiminated foods count?

how about 120 degree tea in 105 degree weather...mmmm more please. Oh yes warm 2 day old goats milk....delicious, could you put your hands in it some more and yes I'd like flies with that....

[Tane Angle]

could you put your hands in it some more rofl

[Beowulf]

could you put your hands in it some more rofl

glad you liked that Tane, how's things?

[ibstolidude]

Thats not an instruction for dealing with another religion?


No, it's not. It's a story.

Is the story of Noah's Ark an instruction for us to all gather animals together & build a boat?

Rubbish. I'm no big fan of the Bible in particular... but you're really grasping at straws here.

Ok, then lets cut away the fat and get to the heart of the matter...when was the last time a Muslim physically tried to kill you?

heh...does indirect fire count?
What about direct fire or better, does eating nasty disease-ridden fecal contaiminated foods count?

how about 120 degree tea in 105 degree weather...mmmm more please. Oh yes warm 2 day old goats milk....delicious, could you put your hands in it some more and yes I'd like flies with that....
Only if you drink the old goat milk w/mint leaves to cover the funk, drinking out of the same cup as the guy who later tells you he suffers from TB; first.

Then you end up with 7 months of the Tiny TIM ass spray.