Turkey looks East again!

[Scythian]

http://www.youtube.com/v/PmcfxVEwt0I

ANKARA: Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's visit to Iran tomorrow adds to concerns that Ankara may be slowly turning its back on its Western allies and seeking to regain its status as a regional power in the Middle East.

Following what Turks saw as Arab betrayal in First World War, Turkey made joining the elite club of Western powers its number one foreign policy objective, joining Nato in 1952 and first applying to join the European Economic Community in 1963.

Nearly 50 years on, Muslim Turkey is still kept at arms length by the European Union, but now having the world's 17th biggest economy, and half-a-million-strong army, it has the potential to become a powerhouse in its eastern backyard.

Erdogan has steadily expanded Turkey's influence in the Middle East since his Islamist-rooted AK party took power in 2002.
He travels to Iran at a time of worsening ties between Turkey and its regional ally Israel and as Ankara hails recent bilateral deals with Syria and Iraq as signalling a "new era".
But some analysts warn an erosion of Ankara's Western oriented foreign policy could have long-term consequences for Nato and for US efforts from Afghanistan to Iraq.

"There is a growing perception that Turkey is favouring its ties with countries such as Iran and Syria at the expense of Israel and the West and this is causing some concern," said Fadi Hakura, a Middle East expert at London's Chatham House.

Erdogan is in Pakistan and will visit Iran tomorrow. Officials said he will discuss a wide range of issues, including energy deals and Iran's nuclear programme.

Following Turkish efforts to bring Afghanistan and Pakistan together in their fight against Taliban insurgencies, Erdogan will also try to mediate between Pakistan and Iran whose ties were strained over Sunday's bombing in Iran that killed 42 people. Iran says the bombers are based in Pakistan.

Erdogan's visit to Iran comes two weeks after Turkey barred Israel from a Nato exercise, a decision that angered Israel and prompted rare criticism from Turkey's ally the US.
The war games were cancelled after the US and Italy refused to take part without Israel.

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyid=262596#

[Scythian]

Turkey opens a school in Palestine.

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu39/aboalbara_2000/IMG_7781.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu39/aboalbara_2000/IMG_7781-1.jpg

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu39/aboalbara_2000/IMG_7781-2.jpg

[avengers13]

turkey's euro membersip efforts stand in controversy.
certainly the country's profile is not made up purely by size and numbers.

[NimDod]

Turkey opens a school in Palestine.
http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu39/aboalbara_2000/IMG_7781-1.jpg

notice Achmad Yassin's poster - the Hamas founder on the upper left corner,
and the map of whole 'Palestine' instead of Israel on the middle-right.

[Player]

notice Achmad Yassin's poster - the Hamas founder on the upper left corner,
and the map of whole 'Palestine' instead of Israel on the middle-right.

Yep. At first I was like "Ok a school in the Palestinian territories, who cares?", but then I noticed the picture of that terrorist which is nothing but a political message.

At the moment Turkey treats Israel almost as bad as Iran does.

[kkbou]

At the moment Turkey treats Israel almost as bad as Iran does.


Hang on, isn't it israel that keeps threatening to bomb iran?

[juliannicholas]

Turkish Delight anyone?

[Player]

Hang on, isn't it israel that keeps threatening to bomb iran?

When did Israel officially threat to bomb Iran? AFAIK, so far Israel has only supported more sanctions.

P.S. This has got nothing to do with my intended message if you read correctly. Even if Israel would in fact threaten to bomb Iran, Turkey has got nothing to do with it. Yet they behave like an enemy, but even most of the so called "enemies" of Israel don't openly act as hostile as Turkey does at the moment, with the exception of Iran of course, hence I mentioned it.

[Cataphract_Persia]

When did Israel officially threat to bomb Iran? AFAIK, so far Israel has only supported more sanctions.

P.S. This has got nothing to do with my intended message if you read correctly. Even if Israel would in fact threaten to bomb Iran, Turkey has got nothing to do with it. Yet they behave like an enemy, but even most of the so called "enemies" of Israel don't openly act as hostile as Turkey does at the moment, with the exception of Iran of course, hence I mentioned it.

"New Israeli PM Netanyahu: We may be forced to attack Iran"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562879456&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

"Olmert: Israel will attack Iran if it doesn't abandon nuclear program"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2008/06/06/2008-06-06_minister_israel_will_attack_iran_if_it_d.html#ixzz0UwqlQDkA

[Player]

"New Israeli PM Netanyahu: We may be forced to attack Iran"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562879456&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

"Olmert: Israel will attack Iran if it doesn't abandon nuclear program"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2008/06/06/2008-06-06_minister_israel_will_attack_iran_if_it_d.html#ixzz0UwqlQDkA


Have you actually bothered to read the articles you provided? I don't see where Netanyahu said that, except for the newspaper making a big headline in order to attract as many viewers as possible.

And anyway, this is off-topic and completely irrelevant to the point of my previous posts.

[Ulytau]

notice Achmad Yassin's poster - the Hamas founder on the upper left corner,
and the map of whole 'Palestine' instead of Israel on the middle-right.

And upper right side i seeing Sultan Abdulhamit :| as i remember a ''Foundation'' which charged from officals builded there but officals are building schools at West Bank which under Fatah control,another thing i support close relitionship with Asian&East and of course Turkic countries and stop loosin power about EU thing :|

[Jedigman]

Today a Countries Might/Power/Strength is measured by it's (military) technological base and know how. Turkey is getting there, but it'll take Turkey another 10 years before they really pull their weight.

Current Indegenous projects such as the Air Defence Frigate (TF-2000) Multi-purpose Corvete/Frigate (TF-100) Patrol and Anti Submarine Corvette (MILGEM), Next generation tank project (Altay), Primary and Basic Training Aircraft (Hurkus) MALE UAV (TIHA) Attack helicopter (T-129), Short and Medium range air defence missiles, Military Spy Satellite (Gokturk II)... Will certainly get Turkey to become a bigger player then it is now.

[hulaku]

ISLAMABAD, Oct. 25 (Xinhua) -- Pakistan and Turkey signed a joint declaration here Sunday to bolster relations in various areas including economy, trade, investment agriculture, industry, culture, education, defense and people-to-people contact.

The two sides agreed to share the objectives of promotion of regional and international peace, stability, freedom and prosperity, according to the joint declaration signed by Pakistani Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani and visiting Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-10/25/content_12324038.htm

[Estopped]

I don't see how being friends with Syria and Iran somehow means they are moving away from the west. It's just practical for them. Syria is a neighbour, and Iran is an important and influential player in the region with the ability to supply critical oil and gas to Turkey. It makes perfect sense. It's very patronising that moving away from Israel is implied to mean they are moving away from civilised society.

[GB_FXST]

notice Achmad Yassin's poster - the Hamas founder on the upper left corner,
and the map of whole 'Palestine' instead of Israel on the middle-right.

I noticed it too.



Yep. At first I was like "Ok a school in the Palestinian territories, who cares?", but then I noticed the picture of that terrorist which is nothing but a political message.

At the moment Turkey treats Israel almost as bad as Iran does.

x2

[GB_FXST]

"New Israeli PM Netanyahu: We may be forced to attack Iran"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562879456&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

"Olmert: Israel will attack Iran if it doesn't abandon nuclear program"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2008/06/06/2008-06-06_minister_israel_will_attack_iran_if_it_d.html#ixzz0UwqlQDkA


Player is correct.

Israel has never threatened Iran with an unprovoked (first strike) genocidal attack.

A threat of a preemptive strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities is far removed from the Iranian threat to wipe Israel off the map.

[charlie]

Nothing more than an attempt to please those who're alienating from the current Turkish government. Hell i befriended a Turk and a Kurd when i still was in school, next thing you know i was watching Kurdish icons on VHS and was told even foreigners could join the PKK and fight if you should wish to do so, naturally i kindly declined. Those who died in combat and deemded worthy had their own portraits on the wall. A rather interesting experience.

[Scythian]

Turkish PM says Turkey determined to co-op with Iran in diverse areas

TEHRAN, Oct. 25 (Xinhua) -- Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said his country is determined to cooperate with Iran in diverse areas, the official IRNA news agency reported Sunday.


"We intend to take joint steps with Iran in all fields of stability and development in the region," Erdogan told reporters on Saturday in Antalia, Turkey before leaving to Islamabad.

He is to arrive in Iran on Monday evening with a senior delegation, including minister of energy and natural resources and foreign minister.
The two countries intend to promote trade exchange level to 20 billion U.S. dollars in 2011, said Erdogan, expressing hope that such joint cooperation will increase more than ever.

He is scheduled to meet with Iran's high-ranking officials including Supreme Leader Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Parliament Speaker Ali Larijani and Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki to talk further about joint fight against terrorism and gas imports from Iran and other subjects of mutual interest.
Iran would be Turkey's second supplier for natural gas after Russia and there would be a joint cooperation in the field of electricity, Erdogan was quoted as saying.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-10/25/content_12324624.htm

[Scythian]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06CG1IMcLQ30A/610x.jpg

Turkey's President Abdullah Gul (http://www.daylife.com/topic/Abdullah_Gul) (C), his Pakistani counterpart Asif Ali Zardari (http://www.daylife.com/topic/Asif_Ali_Zardari), (R), and Afghan President Hamid Karzai (http://www.daylife.com/topic/Hamid_Karzai) join their hands

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05Ga0kn7VL1kD/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eewgYMcNxbhQ/610x.jpg

[m.i.t]

Looking East . But for what ?

[OrangeWolf]

Lol what kind of crappy map is that one in the picture? Lebanon has been swallowed by Syria, or possibly the other way around. And it looks like Jordan and Israel are one country.

EDIT: among other mistakes haha

Also perhaps Turkish members here can explain why their government is funding a school where Arab kids cheer under the photo of the late Hamas man and which shows "Palestine" as occupying the whole of Israel.

I wish Turkey would wise up and turn Westwards

[Estopped]

Player is correct.

Israel has never threatened Iran with an unprovoked (first strike) genocidal attack.

A threat of a preemptive strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities is far removed from the Iranian threat to wipe Israel off the map.

lol at you contradicting yourself within one post.

According to your logic Israel can strike Iran whenever they please. Does it only apply to nuclear power plants or can it also apply to new airforce acquisitions or other toys that compromises the "strategic balance".

[Estopped]

Lol what kind of crappy map is that one in the picture? Lebanon has been swallowed by Syria, or possibly the other way around. And it looks like Jordan and Israel are one country.

EDIT: among other mistakes haha

Also perhaps Turkish members here can explain why their government is funding a school where Arab kids cheer under the photo of the late Hamas man and which shows "Palestine" as occupying the whole of Israel.

I wish Turkey would wise up and turn Westwards

Turkey is already turned westwards. What this appears to be is that Turkey is turning away from Israel, which is South.

I don't see how Turkey having friendly relations with the likes of Iran and Syria compromises its commitment to the European Union. In fact I'd say it actually (over the long term) strengthens Turkeys hand and increases its ability to make itself an important broker in the region and an indispensable energy hub for the rest of Europe.

[Hyde]

I knew years ago that this is gonna happen, when Erdogan told the EU that, if it rejects them again, he will recognize that Europe doesn't want them and they will be forced to reorientate...

[Derbedeu]

I knew years ago that this is gonna happen, when Erdogan told the EU that, if it rejects them again, he will recognize that Europe doesn't want them and they will be forced to reorientate...

That's not much of a threat. p-)

[GB_FXST]

lol at you contradicting yourself within one post.

According to your logic Israel can strike Iran whenever they please. Does it only apply to nuclear power plants or can it also apply to new airforce acquisitions or other toys that compromises the "strategic balance".

Not at all. There is a clear and distinct delineation between a threat of genocide and a threat of pre-emptive attack against a military target.

We can debate whether or not a preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear facilities constitutes a war crime (I do not believe so), but there is no doubt that any indiscriminate strike (first or retaliatory) with any type of weapon system against Israeli civilian populations centers would be.

In regards to the suggestion that Israel would attack any of Iran’s other acquisitions, I think it is instrumental to consider Israel’s response to Syria’s and Hezbollah’s acquisition of various weapons systems, including non-nuclear WMD. If Israel has not struck against Syria chemical laboratories or Hezbollah’s missile stockpiles, then I doubt that that they would feel the need to attack Iran’s non-nuclear systems.


Turkey is already turned westwards. What this appears to be is that Turkey is turning away from Israel, which is South.

I don't see how Turkey having friendly relations with the likes of Iran and Syria compromises its commitment to the European Union. In fact I'd say it actually (over the long term) strengthens Turkeys hand and increases its ability to make itself an important broker in the region and an indispensable energy hub for the rest of Europe.


Geographical semantics aside, Israel is politically and culturally closer to Europe and the US than Syria or Iran.

I am not entirely sure how Europe will continue to embrace Turkey as Turkey embraces a dictatorship and a theocracy.

Nonetheless, there is no doubt that Turkey has sent Israel an unequivocal message.

[Excalibur]

I knew years ago that this is gonna happen, when Erdogan told the EU that, if it rejects them again, he will recognize that Europe doesn't want them and they will be forced to reorientate...
let them reorientate, let them position themselves where they really belong.

[Estopped]

Not at all. There is a clear and distinct delineation between a threat of genocide and a threat of pre-emptive attack against a military target.


I don't think its quite that simple.

You are turning a nebulous quote into a clear cut threat of genocide. Whereas I could turn a pre-emptive attack into a unilateral attack on an innocent country and its civilian institutions for the production of power for its populace: a sovereign right that is allowed as a signatory to the NPT. As a consequence such an attack would be a warcrime and would undermine international law and all conceptions of justice.

This is just playing word games and its pointless.



I am not entirely sure how Europe will continue to embrace Turkey as Turkey embraces a dictatorship and a theocracy.


Many European countries embrace dictatorships and theocracies. As a European my opinion of Israel isn't that much greater than that of Syria or Iran.

[dracon49]

And my opinion on Europeans is that they are hypocrite that they say Israel uses disproportion force against terrorists that fire rockets on her ,but at the same time they send their soldiers thousandths of kilometers to fight some Islamists that dont threaten them(Taliban), so what??...

[RoyB]

As a European my opinion of Israel isn't that much greater than that of Syria or Iran.
Good to know.:roll:

[GB_FXST]

I don't think its quite that simple.

You are turning a nebulous quote into a clear cut threat of genocide. Whereas I could turn a pre-emptive attack into a unilateral attack on an innocent country and its civilian institutions for the production of power for its populace: a sovereign right that is allowed as a signatory to the NPT. As a consequence such an attack would be a warcrime and would undermine international law and all conceptions of justice.

This is just playing word games and its pointless.

... snip ...



Nebulous quote? Not to me and many others.

Iran’s threat of genocide is clear.

There is no parallel whatsoever between 1) an indiscriminate attack against civilians, and 2) a strike against a legitimate military target.





... snip ...

Many European countries embrace dictatorships and theocracies.

... snip ...



True enough. My mistake.





... snip ...

As a European my opinion of Israel isn't that much greater than that of Syria or Iran.

No surprise here.

Nonetheless, is it really necessary to describe why Israel is most definitely not like Syria or Iran?

[Excalibur]

this thread is about turkey's policy, but as always some members insist to derail it to "israel vs whoever" flames. moderators attention here would be helpful. too much off-topic and infractions in this thread.

[Octavariable]

I think I know when:

Here. (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4506796&postcount=6)

[Hyde]

That's not much of a threat. p-)

I never said it was.

[Estopped]

Nebulous quote? Not to me and many others.

Iran’s threat of genocide is clear.

There is no parallel whatsoever between 1) an indiscriminate attack against civilians, and 2) a strike against a legitimate military target.


My original point stands. And to risk straying further off topic I'd rather we end this part of the conversation here.




Nonetheless, is it really necessary to describe why Israel is most definitely not like Syria or Iran?
It's not like Iran and Syria. But I don't think we have any particular obligation to them. Turkey is far too important to define "western policy" by regard to their policy on Israel. Turkey as a potential member of the EU stands to be a huge actor in European affairs. It will eventually become one of the larger economies and if it gets into the EU they will have significant influence in European decision making. Israel has none. I don't even see a competition here.

[dracon49]

And the EU doesnt have any influence on Israel, so what?...in the so-called peace process you dont have any say.

[b0sco]

It will eventually become one of the larger economies and if it gets into the EU they will have significant influence in European decision making.

Yeah, we can only hope that never happens.

I'm actually happy that they are turning east.

Carry on.

[OrangeWolf]

As a European my opinion of Israel isn't that much greater than that of Syria or Iran.

As a European I am allergic for cultural relativists who compare obvious dictatorships who sponsor wars thru proxies with democracies. Are you European or just happen to be here, just btw?

[OrangeWolf]

Turkey is already turned westwards. What this appears to be is that Turkey is turning away from Israel, which is South.

I don't see how Turkey having friendly relations with the likes of Iran and Syria compromises its commitment to the European Union. In fact I'd say it actually (over the long term) strengthens Turkeys hand and increases its ability to make itself an important broker in the region and an indispensable energy hub for the rest of Europe.

Cool story, now care to explain how turning westwards while supporting Arab schools where they admire the founder of Hamas is not hypocrite to western values

And especiall wtf is up with this regional map, was the drawer lazy, or is this their world view?

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eewgYMcNxbhQ/610x.jpg

[Excalibur]

It will eventually become one of the larger economies and if it gets into the EU they will have significant influence in European decision making.
keep dreaming p-)

[Estopped]

As a European I am allergic for cultural relativists who compare obvious dictatorships who sponsor wars thru proxies with democracies. Are you European or just happen to be here, just btw?

Fully European bro

But its nice of you to question my European credentials because I don't agree with your opinion on a country that is not European.

Anyway, back to Turkey. They are an official candidate country and barring a Turkish decision to move away from Europe and to abandon its talks in regard to closing more chapters on its EU accession it will eventually join. It's a slow moving train, but as more chapters close they will gain momentum.

Opposition to Turkey joinin the EU will have far more pressing concerns than neighbourly interactions with Iran and Syria.

[OrangeWolf]

Fully European bro

But its nice of you to question my European credentials because I don't agree with your opinion on a country that is not European.

Anyway, back to Turkey. They are an official candidate country and barring a Turkish decision to move away from Europe and to abandon its talks in regard to closing more chapters on its EU accession it will eventually join. It's a slow moving train, but as more chapters close they will gain momentum.

Opposition to Turkey joinin the EU will have far more pressing concerns than neighbourly interactions with Iran and Syria.

You mean Turkey eh?

Screw that a European Union candidate should not have warm ties with places like Syria and Iran which support terrorism internationally.

[Al-Bundy]

Yeah, we can only hope that never happens.

I'm actually happy that they are turning east.

Carry on.

Agreed. I am also happy if they really do that.


I cannot imagine a EU or Europe bordering Syria, Iran and Iraq.
I simply cannot. Does Europe geographically speaking extents that far??
How is that possible?

[Excalibur]

You mean Turkey eh?

Screw that a European Union candidate should not have warm ties with places like Syria and Iran which support terrorism internationally.

+ European Union candidate shouldn't continue the occupation of Cyprus.
+ European Union candidate should recognize historical fact of armenian genocide as crime.
+ European Union candidate should respect the right of kurdish people for self-determination and generally respect other native populations in turkey.

[dracon49]

And also they have a problem that the army decides on issues and not the government.

[Bolshoy]

Edit..............

[Bolshoy]

Yeah, we can only hope that never happens.

I'm actually happy that they are turning east.

Carry on.

You can have negative feelings personally, but Turkey is importnant to EU for obivious reasons. Well, at least as long as Turkey is close to it of course.

[4X4Driver]

+ European Union candidate shouldn't continue the occupation of Cyprus.
+ European Union candidate should recognize historical fact of armenian genocide as crime.
+ European Union candidate should respect the right of kurdish people for self-determination and generally respect other native populations in turkey.


I see what you're triying to do here ;)..so I'll try to stop your thread derailment attempts by stating one simple fact; Turks are not interested in becoming EU member anylonger.

So, none of the conditions you've listed above has no importance for the Republic of Turkey.

Now, you should give ups using those conditions any ,longer...unless you want to isnsist on draging those matters into this thread.

[Estopped]

Agreed. I am also happy if they really do that.


I cannot imagine a EU or Europe bordering Syria, Iran and Iraq.
I simply cannot. Does Europe geographically speaking extents that far??
How is that possible?

Why not?

The EU has throughout its history bordered unstable countries.

I personally think the unspoken obstacle to Turkish accession is that they would have massive representation in the European Parliament. They would become one of the principal decision makers as opposed to a bit part player who can be ignored because they have no real power in European affairs.

[Bolshoy]

Well, EU needs Turkey more. :)

So who gives a schit.

[Ulytau]

+ European Union candidate should respect the right of kurdish people for self-determination and generally respect other native populations in turkey.

I hope one day you say that in a Turkish city where Bosnians,Circassians,Lazs or Georgians are living,they can show you what is the respect you can be totally sure about that.

Seriously stop trolling at Turkiye based topics but it became life style for you more than sharing knowledge

And i wonder when Turkiye wants to join EU it beein problem than when Turkiye tryin to do with some countries neighbours etc. it beein problem,EU start to be loosing time even if we wont look around of us we gonna be ALONE at geography,when many countries are starting new military&economical alliedships.

Am i happy with current AKP goverment?

Of course no they acting like an idiot about issues which very important for us and today who blaming them nearly were givin bjs to them with keep saying DEMOCRACY at EU reports FUNNIEST term was the SECULAR MINORITY.

[Azatavrear]

one more interesting map for you p-)
http://haber.ekolay.net/Haber/2705/649531/ermenistan+musul+ve+kerkuku+fethettik.aspx


This can't be right..........Armenia does not even exist in this map. Must be a mistake.

[4X4Driver]

Also perhaps Turkish members here can explain why their government is funding a school where Arab kids cheer under the photo of the late Hamas man and which shows "Palestine" as occupying the whole of Israel.

Very simple..the current Edogan gov't has a very special relationship with hamas...you'll never hear them refer to hamas as terror org.


I wish Turkey would wise up and turn Westwards

The Irony is that, this gov't has EU's full support. EU claims that erdogan's gov't is the most democratic gov't Turkey has ever had...go figure.

[Bolshoy]

This can't be right..........Armenia does not even exist in this map. Must be a mistake.

It should not anyway. (:))

[Al-Bundy]

Well, EU needs Turkey more. :)


Says who??



The EU has throughout its history bordered unstable countries.
I am still not convinced how Europe borders Iraq, Ancient Mesopotamia!!!!!!



I personally think the unspoken obstacle to Turkish accession is that they would have massive representation in the European Parliament. They would become one of the principal decision makers as opposed to a bit part player who can be ignored because they have no real power in European affairs.That is not the major problem. The problem is Cultural Incompatibility and then all the rest like geography, immigration, unstable borders with countries to explode in civil wars and somewhere in the end of the list is the massive representation, human rights....

[Bolshoy]

Says who??



The same reason why its in Nato etc...

[SoSo]

Can someone please tell me which cities or provinces of Turkey are "looking East" these days, and which remain oriented towards the West, supporting Israel and the US?

[Al-Bundy]

The same reason why its in Nato etc...
You didn't answer anything. NATO was created out of the fear of USSR. How Europe needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Europe?

[4X4Driver]

You didn't answer anything. NATO was created out of the fear of USSR. How Europe needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Europe?

Don't worry about it man..we don't need eachother specially under these circumstances.

[Karaahmetoglu]

+ European Union candidate shouldn't continue the occupation of Cyprus.
+ European Union candidate should recognize historical fact of armenian genocide as crime.
+ European Union candidate should respect the right of kurdish people for self-determination and generally respect other native populations in turkey.


This is such bullsh!t, I as a Turkish Georgian, can vouch that me my family, my fellow Georgians in Turkey and other ethnic minority groups are not treated any differently then the Turks. This goes for everyone in Turkey, I can speak sing in Georgian all I want anywhere in Turkey and not get in any different treatment then what everyone else does, as matter of fact the state promotes different cultures in Turkey. I.E we have culture fests on the Black Sea cost during hazelnut season.

If you looked at the Turkish Parliament you would see that the Turks are a minority.

Second president of the Republic of Turkey was a Kurd right after Ataturk, a Kurd became president. Would not have happened if we treated them badly.

If you want to continue I can tell you about how Germans treated a few Turks & Kurds I know in Germany.

[Al-Bundy]

This is such bullsh!t, I as a Turkish Georgian, can vouch that me my family, my fellow Georgians in Turkey and other ethnic minority groups are not treated any differently then the Turks. This goes for everyone in Turkey, I can speak sing in Georgian all I want anywhere in Turkey and not get in any different treatment then what everyone else does, as matter of fact the state promotes different cultures in Turkey. I.E we have culture fests on the Black Sea cost during hazelnut season.

Can you say the same for Kurds singing in Kurdish?

[Bolshoy]

Can you say the same for Kurds singing in Kurdish?

There are a Kurdish channel broadcasting 24/7...

Even tho I m against it, Kurds have been given too much rights.

Their terrorist heads can even sit in parliamentary seats.

[Bolshoy]

+ European Union candidate shouldn't continue the occupation of Cyprus.
+ European Union candidate should recognize historical fact of armenian genocide as crime.
+ European Union candidate should respect the right of kurdish people for self-determination and generally respect other native populations in turkey.

Armenian side itself accepted to lay back "genocide" claims after signing the protocols.

Kurds? What more do they need now? Seriously...

Occupation of Cyprus? Why would anyone let their people be killed by some maniacs?

[4X4Driver]

Can you say the same for Kurds singing in Kurdish?

It would help to update yourself when dicussing such matters...kurds in Turkey has their tv channel which they do whatever they want for 24/7

really..:roll:

Now..let's get back to the original topic and out of these cheap attempts.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Can you say the same for Kurds singing in Kurdish?


There are a Kurdish channel broadcasting 24/7...

Even tho I m against it, Kurds have been given too much rights.

Their terrorist heads can even sit in parliamentary seats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/KYZSyQBHCSY



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRT_6

State Kurdish T.V

[unnamed_civilian]

giving my thoughts about the subject with mythbusters attitude here are the results:

myth: Turkey does not want EU anymore!
yes after 50 years of waiting and dreaming Turkish public opinion sees Europe as La Fontaine fairy tales... Reality is when Sarkozy or Menkel is seen at the prime time news and one says Turkey is OK and must be in the EU and must look to west while the other says EU cannot have Turkey for bla bla bla with 6 to 10 month periods now people start to laugh and make jokes about them and EU...
Also with the modernization of Turkey most of the people do not want to go to EU and perform the jobs which were done at 60s-70s by guestarbeiters or now done by albanians... So this myth is true only the goverment talks about EU... and most of the time it is about a new legislation process that EU law is taken as a reference... I remember times EU membership was given as a election rally promise by leading political parties at 80s-90s but last ten years nobody tells a word about EU...

myth: Turkey is bad with Israel
Again I don believe that it is true... But it is now a side effect of the selection of the current leading party by the US... As you all know AKP is a nasty party that is founded on Pro-islamic view that understands democracy as a tool that gives whatever they want. However they liked it and addicted to it so much that they do not want to lose their main voters (by the way which are islamist folks that have their women in headscarfs and got beards and shaved heads and pissed of by various art forms which they mention are against common sense of shameness but later busted with mistress and various love affairs ) so again the prime minister have roots with these voters and even pictures that portrays him paying respect to a cult leader. So when Israel messes with palestinians (whom general public does not care due to the events at 1910s and 20s) these pro islamic folks suddenly comes to glare in order to continue their drama to manipulate their followers...

But (and it is a huge but) after the events at iraq war from 2003 the relationships with US and Turkey become tense and there is a negative attitude against US in Turkey. At this point due to Ahmedinejad the Turkish public started to grow respect for Iran due to their stance against US (to give a little more detail Turkish public thinks Iran must have nuclear weapons even it means an attack from Israel and US since if they do not have they will still able to get one like the situation in Iraq)
So yes it is true that Turkey does not interested in west at least say much much less interested...

myth: a new coalition will apper at the middle east that involve Turkey Iran and bla bla bla
I think this is the true myth since a chain is as strong as its weakest link and when one thinks of such an alliance it tastes like tv dinner... I also cannot think of Turkish public like
Syrians for an ally since they hide the PKK leader nearly a decade and Iraq as the new Kurdish goverment will make people unhappy... I also can not think a Turkey and Iran alliance since Turkey and Iran have different relgion branches...

Hence people in Turkey smiles when they see alliances news like these but people really does not talk about EU or USA as a decade or more before...

[Al-Bundy]

There are a Kurdish channel broadcasting 24/7...

Even tho I m against it, Kurds are being tolerated too much.

Their terrorist heads can even sit in parliamentary seats.

Your attitude proves exactly my point that Turkey has lot of problem with its minorities.The Kurdish problem is a serious problem and with Kurds in Iraq being de facto autonomous waiving their own flag the problem has become even bigger. And that is also what EU does not want to get involved with. Let's not talk about what is left of the other minorities and human rights.


My point is that culturally, geographically, religiously Turkey is not part of Europe. EU rejected Algeria and that what it should have done with Turkey form day one but those were different times with Cold War,USSR, NATO, Warsaw Pact... and American pressure not to alienate Turkey from its sphere of influence.
Turkey can only be a special partner of EU and nothing more.

[4X4Driver]

Can someone please tell me which cities or provinces of Turkey are "looking East" these days, and which remain oriented towards the West, supporting Israel and the US?


For the last 85 years, Turks generally have been facing towards west...but the current gov't has some other plans in effect for the last 7 years...ironically, with the support of west in general.

[4X4Driver]

Your attitude proves exactly my point that Turkey has lot of problem with its minorities.The Kurdish problem is a serious problem and with Kurds in Iraq being de facto autonomous waiving their own flag the problem has become even bigger. And that is also what EU does not want to get involved with. Let's not talk about what is left of the other minorities and human rights.


My point is that culturally, geographically, religiously Turkey is not part of Europe. EU rejected Algeria and that what it should have done with Turkey form day one but those were different times with Cold War,USSR, NATO, Warsaw Pact... and American pressure not to alienate Turkey from its sphere of influence.
Turkey can only be a special partner of EU and nothing more.

Right..so leave the **** us alone..tell your EU authorities not to support the current gov't for their own gains..that's if they ever ask you of course. Just shut the door on their face.

[Bolshoy]

[QUOTE=Al-Bundy;4508221]Your attitude proves exactly my point that Turkey has lot of problem with its minorities.The Kurdish problem is a serious problem and with Kurds in Iraq being de facto autonomous waiving their own flag the problem has become even bigger. And that is also what EU does not want to get involved with. Let's not talk about what is left of the other minorities and human rights.

/QUOTE]

I m not from Turkey first of all.

Not any longer like said. You talk about Kurds not having rights, I proved you that they have more then they actually would even need.

Anymore questions?

[deli_dumrul]

Can you say the same for Kurds singing in Kurdish?

Too much PKK propaganda consumption there, huh?

Let me tell you why the EU needs Turkey... You need a new colony with a young population to pay for your aging population. You also need an energy corridor to Central Asia, because you either have to kiss some Russian a$$ (another dictatorship... Isn't it funny?) or live with blankets the rest of your life every winter.

Now, let's get back to us. Does Turkey need the EU? F*ck no. We survived 35 years of PKK terror funded by the EU, amounting to billions of dollars losses along with two digit inflation... Now, tell me, why the heck do we need the EU after all this? In addition, are Turks interested in EU membership? Heck No! These are just cold hard facts.

Anyways, I will stop here as I respect your user name and avatar...

Now lets discuss about sh*t that has at least a small probability of happening. Like a unicorn showing up in your house.

[Al-Bundy]

Anyways, I will stop here as I respect your user name and avatar...



I liked the TV serial and nothing more. Best serial ever made IMO. I don't see why that makes me special. BTW I am not married with kids.

[zg18]

Turkish position in Asia minor bares the consequence that any power in that area needs to look both west and east , two headed eagle (one head looks east ,one west) is ancient Hittite symbol later reused by Byzantine empire , my point every state through history in this part of the world (no matter christian, muslim ,pagan etc.) had policy defined by geography of east-west link.

[Beykoz]

Turkish position in Asia minor bares the consequence that any power in that area needs to look both west and east , two headed eagle (one head looks east ,one west) is ancient Hittite symbol later reused by Byzantine empire , my point every state through history in this part of the world (no matter christian, muslim ,pagan etc.) had policy defined by geography of east-west link.
Perfect summary.

Turkey has always been talked about as the bridge between East and West. Its geographic position doesn't allow it to face one direction alone. Turkey needs to tighten its ties with both but in a balanced manner, which has been the case till recently.

Funny thing is, this AKP Government has become popular and elected with Western support. US ans EU have backed AKP from the get go, is it this easy to fool you guys...?

A recent article :

All this has nothing to do with whatever historic causes one might seek for such developments. Popular anti-Semitism is driven in Turkey by the acts and rhetoric of the government. Analysts ought to follow Turkey’s current politics in explaining the Turks’ shifting political attitudes. If one fails to point out how anti-Americanism, anti-Israeli sentiments, and anti-Semitism are driven by the government, once such sentiments lay roots, we will have no other explanation but to say that anti-Americanism, anti-Israeli sentiments, and anti-Semitism are intrinsic to Turkish society and, God forbid, the Turks’ religion, Islam.

Pundits, policymakers, and common Turks alike ought to think twice before they overlook Turkey’s political transformation and turn to historicizing Turkey’s current anti-American, anti-Israeli, and anti-Semitic stance. The surge of these sentiments since 2002 demonstrates that, when in power, Islamists can corrupt even the most liberal of Muslim societies. The singular example of a Muslim society that is friendly towards Jews and Americans risks disappearing if we do not point out the political nature of Turkey’s current transformation. If we ignore the political forces changing Turkey today, others will blame the change on the Turks and Islam tomorrow.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=a-trap-for-muslims-2009-10-24

[Azatavrear]

One thing to consider is that for over 40 years the Kemalists in Turkey were the ones supporting EU insertion and the Islamists were against it………now the Kemalists are against EU and the Islamists show support for it, what does that mean?

One may also ask how different are the Islamist from the Kemalist in Turkey when it comes to the objectives of Turkish State and how they come together.
As a friend used to say..........Turkish politics can cut without you feeling anything.

[4X4Driver]

One thing to consider is that for over 40 years the Kemalists in Turkey were the ones supporting EU insertion and the Islamists were against it………now the Kemalists are against EU and the Islamists show support for it, what does that mean?

One may also ask how different are the Islamist from the Kemalist in Turkey when it comes to the objectives of Turkish State and how they come together

Well..let's just put a side the advantage of actually being knowledged about these people, let's just use a common sense/logic for a moment and ask couple of questions.

Q1- How can a person and his party-who only couple of years ago tried to criminilize adultery by passing a law- can be sincere about being a EU member? (this is only one examle of many other attempts)

Q2- Can they be actually using the EU process to cover up their Islamic agenda? (many EU demands gives them the opportunity to do this)

They have nothing what's so ever in common, thus they can't have any common objectives regarding the Turkish State's future.

[Beykoz]

One thing to consider is that for over 40 years the Kemalists in Turkey were the ones supporting EU insertion and the Islamists were against it………now the Kemalists are against EU and the Islamists show support for it, what does that mean?

Kemalists are not against EU, they are against EU accession under AKP's leadership.

If Europe and US are supporting AKP who is Islamist in its core, one has to ask the question of 'why'. On the other hand if AKP is looking for support from outside so they can gain solid support in Turkey, one also has to ask the same question, why...?
The answer is simple, they are using each other for their own benefits. AKP is trying to weaken the secular resistance and eliminate the Military as its threat, and, Europe is trying to get all the concessions a secular government, or any government under secular directorate would not give.

Also, while the government and the main opposition can be divided into two camps of Islamists and Kemalists, the same could not be said of the populace. IMO, Turkish voters would have to be one of the most swinging and easily led voters in the world. At least half would vote for the other parties at different times. The fact that if there were election tomorrow, there are 30 parties that would contest it is another matter. Biggest advantage of AKP here is that, they hold the most potent trump card in their hand, the religion. For a wondering crowd it is very influential, for the country it's the most damaging. Religious indoctrination creates the feeling of compulsion in society to do as others do. One feels obligated to pray, fast and do all the things, not because Islam requires them, but because they feel compelled to do so. Not to mention, it becomes quite favourable for different sects to pop up with their warped and distorted beliefs, just like a warm and moist environement is for bacteria.



One may also ask how different are the Islamist from the Kemalist in Turkey when it comes to the objectives of Turkish State and how they come together.
If you are asking the differences in foreign policy towards Armenia, probably not a lot of difference, though Islamists look more ****e to making mistakes. I believe their policies are short sighted. But whether Islamist or Kemalist we despise you all the same, if that is what you are trying to get out of a Turk. By you I mean, you and your kind alone and not all Armenians, you have a special place in our hearts. When it comes to foreign policy not concerning Armenians, there are lots of differences, you have been following and participating in countless Israel threads, there is your first example.



As a friend used to say..........Turkish politics can cut without you feeling anything.
You may feel that way from the outside, I feel it cuts with a blunt and rusty pocket knife.

[saladin]

Lol what kind of crappy map is that one in the picture? Lebanon has been swallowed by Syria, or possibly the other way around. And it looks like Jordan and Israel are one country.

EDIT: among other mistakes haha

Also perhaps Turkish members here can explain why their government is funding a school where Arab kids cheer under the photo of the late Hamas man and which shows "Palestine" as occupying the whole of Israel.

I wish Turkey would wise up and turn Westwards

Not making excuses, but that school is opened by an islamic foundation, known for its attempts (and apparent success) against secular Turkish state. Also notice the missing Ataturk's portrait (founder of modern Turkey, and seen as the biggest enemy by such foundations and people) but instead an ottoman sultan's one.

These people are not representing (once) modern Turkey but dream of an Islamic ottoman empire (as if it was not the ottomans that sold out my country).


Well, I thank all the participating countries who forced Turkey to relax its laws or harbored such people. You sowed the wind, now face the hurricane

[NimDod]

Thank you for clearing that out, saladin.

[m.i.t]

This can't be right..........Armenia does not even exist in this map. Must be a mistake.


Evil plans of AKP occured. :D .

BTW. l hope EU will declare cancelation of membership as soon as possible . Membership works for poltics of ERDOGAN most .

[apadana]

Player is correct.

Israel has never threatened Iran with an unprovoked (first strike) genocidal attack.

A threat of a preemptive strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities is far removed from the Iranian threat to wipe Israel off the map.

Threats are threats . You may use different language and tone but at the end of the day you’re still making a threat to attack. If you’re interested I can post more than a few quotes of Israeli politicians threatening to attack Iran because of its nuclear program.

[Derbedeu]

Why not?
Because then it wouldn't be European Union any more.



The EU has throughout its history bordered unstable countries.Countries that nonetheless were still in Europe.


I personally think the unspoken obstacle to Turkish accession is that they would have massive representation in the European Parliament. They would become one of the principal decision makers as opposed to a bit part player who can be ignored because they have no real power in European affairs.That's just part of the problem. Simply put I think the divide between the EU and Turkey is simply too great to bridge for the foreseeable future. The EU would simply become just another fractious international body akin to the UN.

Personally speaking, I got nothing against Turkey or its people, and I would like to see some kind of close relationship with it just short of membership.

Besides, if what 4x4 Driver said is true:

Turks are not interested in becoming EU member anylonger.

I don't see why they should be forced to join against their will.

[Excalibur]

Now, let's get back to us. Does Turkey need the EU? F*ck no. We survived 35 years of PKK terror funded by the EU, amounting to billions of dollars losses along with two digit inflation...
that's very interesting stuff. appreciate if you can tell us in more details how EU funded PKK terrorists.

[GB_FXST]

Threats are threats . You may use different language and tone but at the end of the day you’re still making a threat to attack. If you’re interested I can post more than a few quotes of Israeli politicians threatening to attack Iran because of its nuclear program.

No thanks. As mentioned above, further discussion is off topic.

[Azatavrear]

....
If you are asking the differences in foreign policy towards Armenia, probably not a lot of difference, though Islamists look more ****e to making mistakes. I believe their policies are short sighted. But whether Islamist or Kemalist we despise you all the same, if that is what you are trying to get out of a Turk. By you I mean, you and your kind alone and not all Armenians, you have a special place in our hearts. When it comes to foreign policy not concerning Armenians, there are lots of differences, you have been following and participating in countless Israel threads, there is your first example.
.....

How nice to know that you hold a special place for us in your heart......you keep forgeting, I do not represent anybody but my own opinion as a US citizen of Armenian decent.

Here is what I think:
Sounds like the military politicians of Turkey, by giving the West the finger, are trying to convince the world that democratization of Turkey will cost the West dearly and that the Islamists who are being preferred over Kemalists (lesser of the two evil) will screw it all up. I think EU has realized this double edge sword.


http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-102810275/turkey-kemalism-vs-islamism.html

Observers view the military establishment's decision not to force through co-operation with the US as a tactic to show (a) the US that its constant calls for democratisation would involve costs not only for those benefiting from the status quo in Turkey, but also for America itself; and (b) the Turkish people that an Islamist government is not only as incapable as other secular governments of bring economic prosperity, but that it is also dangerous for Turkey's standing with the global powers and in the region.
With both the civilian government and the military establishment playing political games, the balance is highly unstable. The AKP government may decide that, with the EU being noncommittal and the US being cool to their overtures, the next best step is to move to improve ties with neighboring countries like Syria and Iran - a move which would appeal to their Islamist grassroots power base, as it would reflect a small shift towards Turkey's Middle Eastern heritage. But this will have strong repercussions on domestic politics and beyond that as well.
In such circumstances, amounting to a direct threat against the Kemalist ideology of the state, the military may feel obliged to intervene once more ...


It sounds to me like the time has come to yet again for another Kemalist group hug, and then go to town for some good old fashion cleansing (military coup).

Why don’t you guys just fly the triple crescent flag and get it over with?

http://forum.hyeclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1728&d=1256445545

[Estopped]

Because then it wouldn't be European Union any more.

Countries that nonetheless were still in Europe.

There are already non-European members of Europe.


That's just part of the problem. Simply put I think the divide between the EU and Turkey is simply too great to bridge for the foreseeable future. The EU would simply become just another fractious international body akin to the UN.

Because it isn't already. The EU is significantly different to the UN and Turkey joining won't change that.

Turkey will join. All European countries will eventually link up. It's just a matter of time. Turkey will simply be one of the largest economies in Europe and they will be impossible to ignore.

[xav]

notice Achmad Yassin's poster - the Hamas founder

A friend (from lebanon) told me that guy was in a wheel chair following repeated torture in Israeli jails.
But an history proffessor told me it was actually a disease he had?

[GiladS]

A friend (from lebanon) told me that guy was in a wheel chair following repeated torture in Israeli jails.
But an history proffessor told me it was actually a disease he had?

He injured his back as a child and as he got older his condition deteriorated.

[GB_FXST]

A friend (from lebanon) told me that guy was in a wheel chair following repeated torture in Israeli jails.
But an history proffessor told me it was actually a disease he had?

Accident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin

[Derbedeu]

There are already non-European members of Europe.

No not really. And before you say it, both Malta and Cyprus are European nations. ;-)


Because it isn't already. The EU is significantly different to the UN and Turkey joining won't change that.Turkey will most definitely change that. A country of 75 million people bordering countries like Syria and Iran presents completely different problems that the EU can't really afford to inherit.


Turkey will join. All European countries will eventually link up. It's just a matter of time. Turkey will simply be one of the largest economies in Europe and they will be impossible to ignore.Nope. I'm pretty certain it won't. Membership still requires approval of all 27 nations, and I can already guarantee that certain nations just won't give their assent (both France and Austria will hold referendums on Turkish accession, and I highly doubt they will garner a Yes vote). In fact, most of European public opinion is against Turkish accession, something like over 80% do not wish to see Turkey in the EU, but rather a privileged relation like Norway has with the EU. And that feeling seems to be mutual as over 50 percent of Turks are against joining the EU, and only 35% have a favorable view of the EU. Also, don't forget that effectively speaking, the question of Turkey's accession is "open ended" and rejection is not out of the question.

Besides, Turkey is not Europe. Morocco's application into the EU was rejected specifically because it's not a European country, and the only reason the EU has allowed negotiations to open with Turkey is due to the fact that they have that sliver of land on the European continent, which quite honestly is sort of a farce. After all, when one thinks of Turkey, one doesn't think Europe. Turkey connotes Asia, the Middle East, the Ottoman Empire, the Anatolian peninsula, etc, but not Europe. Especially when taking into consideration language, religion, history, traditions, culture, etc.

And guess what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Turkey and Turks have a proud and noble history as well as numerous opportunities for the future, and they can certainly prosper as a crossroad between Europe and the Middle East (e.g. gas pipelines) but that does not mean that it must join the EU to do so.

In conclusion, I honestly do not see Turkey joining the EU, though that does not mean that the EU and Turkey shouldn't have a strong relationship. After all, they're still our neighbors, and neighbors should always have good relations.

[Beykoz]

How nice to know that you hold a special place for us in your heart......you keep forgeting, I do not represent anybody but my own opinion as a US citizen of Armenian decent.

Oh, I am aware that your ideas and comments represent a very good chunk of diaspora. We are known for our hospitality and welcome your dreams with open arms.




Here is what I think:
Sounds like the military politicians of Turkey, by giving the West the finger, are trying to convince the world that democratization of Turkey will cost the West dearly and that the Islamists who are being preferred over Kemalists (lesser of the two evil) will screw it all up. I think EU has realized this double edge sword.

Who are the military politicians...? If you mean CHP, they never gave the finger to EU, it's against their principles.




It sounds to me like the time has come to yet again for another Kemalist group hug, and then go to town for some good old fashion cleansing (military coup).

Why don’t you guys just fly the triple crescent flag and get it over with?

There is a lot you don't know and understand, first of all, the triple crescent doesn't represent the Army nor Kemalists. Hence there is no point going into further discussion with you on this matter. Clueless dimwits like you collect articles on the net and think they become an authority on Turkish politics by quoting a paragraph here and there. Your agenda is obvious.

[4X4Driver]

No not really. And before you say it, both Malta and Cyprus are European nations. ;-)

Turkey will most definitely change that. A country of 75 million people bordering countries like Syria and Iran presents completely different problems that the EU can't really afford to inherit.

Nope. I'm pretty certain it won't. Membership still requires approval of all 27 nations, and I can already guarantee that certain nations just won't give their assent (both France and Austria will hold referendums on Turkish accession, and I highly doubt they will garner a Yes vote). In fact, most of European public opinion is against Turkish accession, something like over 80% do not wish to see Turkey in the EU, but rather a privileged relation like Norway has with the EU. And that feeling seems to be mutual as over 50 percent of Turks are against joining the EU, and only 35% have a favorable view of the EU. Also, don't forget that effectively speaking, the question of Turkey's accession is "open ended" and rejection is not out of the question.

Besides, Turkey is not Europe. Morocco's application into the EU was rejected specifically because it's not a European country, and the only reason the EU has allowed negotiations to open with Turkey is due to the fact that they have that sliver of land on the European continent, which quite honestly is sort of a farce. After all, when one thinks of Turkey, one doesn't think Europe. Turkey connotes Asia, the Middle East, the Ottoman Empire, the Anatolian peninsula, etc, but not Europe. Especially when taking into consideration language, religion, history, traditions, culture, etc.

And guess what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Turkey and Turks have a proud and noble history as well as numerous opportunities for the future, and they can certainly prosper as a crossroad between Europe and the Middle East (e.g. gas pipelines) but that does not mean that it must join the EU to do so.

In conclusion, I honestly do not see Turkey joining the EU, though that does not mean that the EU and Turkey shouldn't have a strong relationship. After all, they're still our neighbors, and neighbors should always have good relations.

It's a fair and pretty good observation. I'm also sure that we will never become a member as long as the Islamists governing the country..and we shouldn't either....but the problem is this "open ended" accession procedure. It has to stop immediatelly.

[Estopped]

No not really. And before you say it, both Malta and Cyprus are European nations. ;-)

No they're not. Cyprus isn't in Europe at all. Turkey meanwhile has a part of its territory in Europe and has a long history of European interaction.


Turkey will most definitely change that. A country of 75 million people bordering countries like Syria and Iran presents completely different problems that the EU can't really afford to inherit. Why?

What's wrong with both Syria and Iran?
Europe already borders Belarus and has lived next door to communist dictatorships and out right war zones. Iran and Syria by contrast are bastions of stability. We can't take the MP.net approach and base Europe's future on how it views Israels enemies.

Given Europe's energy needs a strong relationship with Iran is a positive development. That's if you support Europe having a diverse energy supply that doesn't put all of our egges in one basket.


Nope. I'm pretty certain it won't. Membership still requires approval of all 27 nations, and I can already guarantee that certain nations just won't give their assent (both France and Austria will hold referendums on Turkish accession, and I highly doubt they will garner a Yes vote). In fact, most of European public opinion is against Turkish accession, something like over 80% do not wish to see Turkey in the EU, but rather a privileged relation like Norway has with the EU. And that feeling seems to be mutual as over 50 percent of Turks are against joining the EU, and only 35% have a favorable view of the EU. Also, don't forget that effectively speaking, the question of Turkey's accession is "open ended" and rejection is not out of the question. Norway and Turkey are completely different. Norway even if it joined the EU will never have any real decision making power due to its small population. Turkey on the other hand is another proposition.

You might be right that there are countries that would look to block Turkey. But we've seen with Lisbon that rejected referendums are no obstacle when the political will changes and grows in one particular direction. Will France and Austria be so potent when Turkeys becomes one of the largest in Europe.

And the reality is that Turkey is an EU candidate country. That is not subject to the whims of public opinion. It's a political reality and there are plenty of countries that support Turkish membership of the EU.


Besides, Turkey is not Europe. Morocco's application into the EU was rejected specifically because it's not a European country, and the only reason the EU has allowed negotiations to open with Turkey is due to the fact that they have that sliver of land on the European continent, which quite honestly is sort of a farce. After all, when one thinks of Turkey, one doesn't think Europe. Turkey connotes Asia, the Middle East, the Ottoman Empire, the Anatolian peninsula, etc, but not Europe. Especially when taking into consideration language, religion, history, traditions, culture, etc. It's already a candidate country, ergo comparisons with Morocco are completely unfounded. Turkey has been a candidate country for decades now. It has and is a European country that takes part in most major European institutions outside of the EU itself. There are already fully non-European countries in the EU.


And guess what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Turkey and Turks have a proud and noble history as well as numerous opportunities for the future, and they can certainly prosper as a crossroad between Europe and the Middle East (e.g. gas pipelines) but that does not mean that it must join the EU to do so.

In conclusion, I honestly do not see Turkey joining the EU, though that does not mean that the EU and Turkey shouldn't have a strong relationship. After all, they're still our neighbors, and neighbors should always have good relations.I personally would like to see the whole of Europe united within the EU. And that includes the likes of Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Ukraine, Belarus Azerbaijan, Russia and Kazakhstan.

Turkey is a candidate country and as it becomes more powerful the political momentum will accelerate and they will close more and more chapters.

I can definately see your objections. The free movement of 80 million plus turks scares the beejesus out of many. But Turkey will be a big player in a future Europe and I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually attract net immigration.

[Derbedeu]

No they're not. Cyprus isn't in Europe at all. Turkey meanwhile has a part of its territory in Europe and has a long history of European interaction.


Technically neither is Ireland of the UK. They're islands. Besides, there is more to being considered a European country other than geography, which I have stated in my previous post.


Why?

What's wrong with both Syria and Iran?
Europe already borders Belarus and has lived next door to communist dictatorships and out right war zones. Iran and Syria by contrast are bastions of stability. We can't take the MP.net approach and base Europe's future on how it views Israels enemies.Last I checked Belarus isn't a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy with known links to terrorist organizations. And it has nothing to do with Israel.


Given Europe's energy needs a strong relationship with Iran is a positive development. That's if you support Europe having a diverse energy supply that doesn't put all of our egges in one basket.I do support diversifying Europe's energy market. What you fail to take into account is that Iran needs Euros as much as Europe needs gas. They'll supply it so long as we pay for it.


Norway and Turkey are completely different. Norway even if it joined the EU will never have any real decision making power due to its small population. Turkey on the other hand is another proposition.All members have a say, irregardless of their size.


You might be right that there are countries that would look to block Turkey. But we've seen with Lisbon that rejected referendums are no obstacle when the political will changes and grows in one particular direction. Will France and Austria be so potent when Turkeys becomes one of the largest in Europe. The thing is that the political will of France, not to mention Germany, the two biggest in the EU are against Turkish membership. As is the majority of the EU population. Doesn't matter how large Turkey becomes economically, the smallest EU country still has a say on any new membership.


And the reality is that Turkey is an EU candidate country. That is not subject to the whims of public opinion. It's a political reality and there are plenty of countries that support Turkish membership of the EU.The reality is that Turkey's candidate status is a farce. It took 50 years to finally grant them candidate status, and it's pretty obvious that the EU is going to string them along for another 50 before saying no. I don't see why we should string Turkey along like that as it's not fair to us or them. In fact it's insulting, and it isn't going to foster any better relations. We should just come clean and offer them a privileged relation.

Yes there are some countries that support Turkish membership, but that doesn't help when it has to be unanimous (not to mention that the majority of governments that do support Turkish accession do not have backing from the public).


It's already a candidate country, ergo comparisons with Morocco are completely unfounded. Turkey has been a candidate country for decades now. It has and is a European country that takes part in most major European institutions outside of the EU itself. There are already fully non-European countries in the EU.No, my point is that the only reason Morocco's application was rejected and Turkey's wasn't is because of that tiny sliver of land on the European country. The EU just doesn't want to be seen as anti-Islamic by rejecting Turkey. Yet it's clear that they don't see Turkey as an EU member. Why do you think it took 50 years to even grant them candidate status? If the EU was serious about having Turkey join the EU it would have been granted much earlier, certainly earlier than the the former communist bloc countries.
BTW, Israel is often grouped with Europe in many events and organization, that doesn't make it European either.


I personally would like to see the whole of Europe united within the EU. And that includes the likes of Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Ukraine, Belarus Azerbaijan, Russia and Kazakhstan.Very noble of you. But it's not gonna happen in the next 100 years, I can guarantee you that. Turkey we already covered, Georgia and Armenia and Azerbaijan carry to many territorial problems with them, Russia is too stubborn and unwilling to share sovereignty to ever join, Belarus and Ukraine will follow Russia's lead either freely or through coercion, and Kazakhstan isn't European, is tied to Russia, and there's no interest on either side for membership. We will be lucky if all of the Balkan countries with their territorial disputes ever accede to the EU in out lifetime, or if Moldova can get past its identity crises and join.


Turkey is a candidate country and as it becomes more powerful the political momentum will accelerate and they will close more and more chapters.Just because it will become more powerful doesn't mean that it will join the EU, in fact it will probably give them more of a reason not to join. I also suspect it's going to be a good decade, if not more, before all of the chapters are closed, and that still means squat as they will have to be unanimously accepted by all 27 (or perhaps 29 if Iceland and Croatia join) EU nations. Which simply isn't going to happen.


I can definately see your objections. The free movement of 80 million plus turks scares the beejesus out of many. But Turkey will be a big player in a future Europe and I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually attract net immigration.It's not the movement, it's just that Turkey isn't a European country, and it would make as much sense as accepting Israel into the EU. Yes you can accept it, but then it's not the European Union but something else. It'll also pretty much stop further EU integration, which is not something that I would like to see.

I would also like to point out that Turkey's guardian of Ataturk's secular legacy has always been the army. Yet, if Turkey joins the EU, it will find that the army will no longer be able to preserve Turkey's secular government if it is somehow placed in jeopardy by Islamists being voted into power.

Again, I just don't see Turkey as having any place in the EU, nor do I think that they will join the EU.I also think it is dangerous to continue to string them along with the illusion that they'll join the EU, as all it will do is harvest bad feelings. We should just come clean and make it clear to them that we are more than willing to work closely in conjunction with them on many issues, grant them a free trade agreement, and be good neighbors. At least that way we won't be insulting them with the false illusion that they will join the EU. Yes, it might (unfortunately) hurt their feelings in the short term, but it will be better than stringing them along for another 50 years only to then say no.

[derkrieger]

I don't think Turkey will care to be a member of the diluted EU with 29 members in the coming years if it hold its course.
I don't think you guys are sincere in criticizing Erdogan and his government for he is the most pro-EU politician I have ever seen. His being pro-EU is actually close to being ridiculous at times, even ignoring vital Turkish national interests. That is why I dislike him.

so is EU really THAT important?
No not any more. EU has zero leverage and nada credibility in the eyes of Turkish nation, so they can say whatever thay want to, regarding Armenia, Cyprus, this or that. This is it, we are still alive and kicking.

Is Turkish criticism of Israel really that sinister?
No it actually is not. Everybody, including islamist president Gul have reiterated that Israel is a friendly nation and an important partner in the ME. So Turkey's policy has not shifted that rapidly and completely. Israel is an ally and a Jews are our former protegees so we will keep an eye on our former State in the Middle East and safeguard their well-being. What has changed may be the way we treat you Arabs and Jews. You are our former subjects, whom we cared for, dearly and diligently. Today's Turkey sounds and behaves like the EMPIRE. That is what happens today. Kids are just fight and the elderly are telling you to calm down.

Has Turkish criticism got to do anything with its (extinct) EU aspirations?
Hmm not really. Please refer to the Swedish criticism of some Israeli policies and action in the region. Swedes are (or were) the presidents of the EU, when they voiced their worries.

[Estopped]

Technically neither is Ireland of the UK. They're islands. Besides, there is more to being considered a European country other than geography, which I have stated in my previous post.

Technically they are. Only small minded little englanders think that England and Ireland aren't in Europe.


Last I checked Belarus isn't a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy with known links to terrorist organizations. And it has nothing to do with Israel. So?

Iran isn't the candidate country in the EU.


I do support diversifying Europe's energy market. What you fail to take into account is that Iran needs Euros as much as Europe needs gas. They'll supply it so long as we pay for it.Except they don't. There is India and China just waiting in the wings and they are desperate for oil and gas. Either we act now or we lose it to those nations.


All members have a say, regardless of their size. And you and I both know that Turkey will have massive representation in the EU parliament and that any political decision will be hard without placating Turkey.

It's like comparing Germany representation to Swedens.


The thing is that the political will of France, not to mention Germany, the two biggest in the EU are against Turkish membership. As is the majority of the EU population. Doesn't matter how large Turkey becomes economically, the smallest EU country still has a say on any new membership.And these attitudes can change when the political winds sweep in another direction. All it takes is a change of administration and changes in Turkey itself.


The reality is that Turkey's candidate status is a farce. It took 50 years to finally grant them candidate status, and it's pretty obvious that the EU is going to string them along for another 50 before saying no. I don't see why we should string Turkey along like that as it's not fair to us or them. In fact it's insulting, and it isn't going to foster any better relations. We should just come clean and offer them a privileged relation. It is a farce. But it's a reality that isn't going to go away. The Turks aren't going to back off and Europe is not going to kick them to the curb. Their membership accession will slowly progress and the political will will build and build until it reaches a critical mass and real debate starts on Turkey joining.


Yes there are some countries that support Turkish membership, but that doesn't help when it has to be unanimous (not to mention that the majority of governments that do support Turkish accession do not have backing from the public).You ignore political realities. No one nation can irrationally block another without having good reason. If Turkey closes its chapters the ability to block and stimmy them will reside and ebb. At this point the countries that support Turkey will find momentum and those who weakly oppose will acquiesce.


No, my point is that the only reason Morocco's application was rejected and Turkey's wasn't is because of that tiny sliver of land on the European country. The EU just doesn't want to be seen as anti-Islamic by rejecting Turkey. Yet it's clear that they don't see Turkey as an EU member. Why do you think it took 50 years to even grant them candidate status? If the EU was serious about having Turkey join the EU it would have been granted much earlier, certainly earlier than the the former communist bloc countries. Turkey was ridiculously poor at the time. They haven't met the criteria and haven't closed their accession chapters. I think it will take a long time, but it will happen.

Turkey is by far the largest of the poor nations to seek EU membership. It doesn't surprise me that it will take the longest to accede to the EU.


BTW, Israel is often grouped with Europe in many events and organization, that doesn't make it European either. It's a political anomaly because half the countries in asia will not play with them. There is no question that Israel is not a European country.


Very noble of you. But it's not gonna happen in the next 100 years, I can guarantee you that. Turkey we already covered, Georgia and Armenia and Azerbaijan carry to many territorial problems with them, Russia is too stubborn and unwilling to share sovereignty to ever join, Belarus and Ukraine will follow Russia's lead either freely or through coercion, and Kazakhstan isn't European, is tied to Russia, and there's no interest on either side for membership. We will be lucky if all of the Balkan countries with their territorial disputes ever accede to the EU in out lifetime, or if Moldova can get past its identity crises and join.
I think you are being rather shortsighted here. If Turkey gets in it's almost fait accompli that the caucus states will follow soon after. They've all expressed a will to join. We've all seen Sakashvilli with his EU flag. Ukraine will almost certainly join sometime (if not before turkey).

The balkan states will almost certainly accede sometime in the next 15 years.


Just because it will become more powerful doesn't mean that it will join the EU, in fact it will probably give them more of a reason not to join. I also suspect it's going to be a good decade, if not more, before all of the chapters are closed, and that still means squat as they will have to be unanimously accepted by all 27 (or perhaps 29 if Iceland and Croatia join) EU nations. Which simply isn't going to happen. The point i'm getting at is that a powerful economic player Turkey will be welcomed into the EU as a benefiit and not a burden. It's role would be to actually strengthen the EU as another - future- trillion dollars plus economy.

I've already mentioned political winds changing and the strong support for Turkeys accession from other countries.


It's not the movement, it's just that Turkey isn't a European country, and it would make as much sense as accepting Israel into the EU. Yes you can accept it, but then it's not the European Union but something else. It'll also pretty much stop further EU integration, which is not something that I would like to see. The problem is that Turkey is a European country. It's been accepted as such. Israel is not a European country in any capacity. It's another Morocco.


I would also like to point out that Turkey's guardian of Ataturk's secular legacy has always been the army. Yet, if Turkey joins the EU, it will find that the army will no longer be able to preserve Turkey's secular government if it is somehow placed in jeopardy by Islamists being voted into power. It's already happened. Part of the deal with joining the EU is the strengthening of democracy. The government in place are already islamists. This doesn't mean that Turkey is going to slip into some sort of islamic revolution. At the same time there is nothing wrong with Turkey having friendly relations with nations like Iran and Syria. In fact its enormously helpful.



Again, I just don't see Turkey as having any place in the EU, nor do I think that they will join the EU.I also think it is dangerous to continue to string them along with the illusion that they'll join the EU, as all it will do is harvest bad feelings. We should just come clean and make it clear to them that we are more than willing to work closely in conjunction with them on many issues, grant them a free trade agreement, and be good neighbors. At least that way we won't be insulting them with the false illusion that they will join the EU. Yes, it might (unfortunately) hurt their feelings in the short term, but it will be better than stringing them along for another 50 years only to then say no.Personally I think that Turkey will join, but not from a position of weakness. We will accept them into the union when they are a much stronger nation and see its accession as a benefit rather than a burden. As Turkeys economy grows and its political strength increases, along with its excellent relations with important energy players like Iran and Azerbaijan they will become a strategic country for European energy supply. Turkey will simply become indespensible. And i'd rather have a strong Europe than one that is based on xenophobia and fear.

[m.i.t]

Certainly most of the europe is aganist membership of Turkey. They must be honest like sarko and should cancel damn membership application now. Unwillingnes is also mutual and Turkish citizens dont want too .

[Derbedeu]

So?

Iran isn't the candidate country in the EU.

The EU doesn't want to take on those burdens. Allowing Turkey to accede will mean that it will have to start investing heavily into the Middle East Region in order to stabilize its borders. Looking at the history of the Middle East and all of its troubles, it's not something the EU can fix, nor is it something it can afford to try to fix.


Except they don't. There is India and China just waiting in the wings and they are desperate for oil and gas. Either we act now or we lose it to those nations.I got news for you, not one country is going to sell exclusively to only one nation. They're gonna sell to whoever can pay for it, and the euro is a very persuasive currency.


And you and I both know that Turkey will have massive representation in the EU parliament and that any political decision will be hard without placating Turkey.

It's like comparing Germany representation to Swedens.
Which is yet another reason why nobody is going to endorse their membership, especially France and Germany.


And these attitudes can change when the political winds sweep in another direction. All it takes is a change of administration and changes in Turkey itself.Easier said than done. In EU nations where there's almost a 90% opposition to Turkish membership (e.g. Austria), any support would result in the ruling party getting kicked out, which is not something any party wants to do.


It is a farce. But it's a reality that isn't going to go away. The Turks aren't going to back off and Europe is not going to kick them to the curb. Their membership accession will slowly progress and the political will will build and build until it reaches a critical mass and real debate starts on Turkey joining.The Turks are already having second thoughts. I'm pretty certain that those will only solidify as it becomes apparent that Europe doesn't really want Turkey in the EU.


You ignore political realities. No one nation can irrationally block another without having good reason. If Turkey closes its chapters the ability to block and stimmy them will reside and ebb. At this point the countries that support Turkey will find momentum and those who weakly oppose will acquiesce.I ignore political realities?! I hate to break it to you, but the two most powerful nations in Europe as well as several smaller ones are against Turkey's membership into the EU. They don't need any reason to reject Turkish membership, so long as they have a veto, nor will countries like Austria or France, which have made it a law to approve Turkish membership through referendum, ever vote yes.

Then there's Cyprus, which Turkey still doesn't officially recognize!


Turkey was ridiculously poor at the time. They haven't met the criteria and haven't closed their accession chapters. I think it will take a long time, but it will happen.

Turkey is by far the largest of the poor nations to seek EU membership. It doesn't surprise me that it will take the longest to accede to the EU. Yet another reason most EU nations don't want Turkey to join. It's one thing when you are poor, but small, and another when you are poor but large. It'll also mean that most EU nations will lose regional funding to Turkey, something that no one is really willing to give up.


It's a political anomaly because half the countries in asia will not play with them. There is no question that Israel is not a European country.And neither is Turkey.


I think you are being rather shortsighted here. If Turkey gets in it's almost fait accompli that the caucus states will follow soon after. They've all expressed a will to join. We've all seen Sakashvilli with his EU flag. Ukraine will almost certainly join sometime (if not before turkey).Yes, sure. :roll:

Armenia and Azerbaijan will settle their territorial dispute just like that, Georgia's problems over Abkhazia and South Ossetia will just disappear, and Ukraine will no longer be a black hole of corruption.


The balkan states will almost certainly accede sometime in the next 15 years.Unfortunately that's a very optimistic view that doesn't reflect reality.


The point i'm getting at is that a powerful economic player Turkey will be welcomed into the EU as a benefiit and not a burden. It's role would be to actually strengthen the EU as another - future- trillion dollars plus economy.Yes, Turkey's GDP is close to a trillion dollars, but it would still be in the red when it comes to the EU ledger, receiving more funds then it will give out.


I've already mentioned political winds changing and the strong support for Turkeys accession from other countries. Actually the opposite is true.


The problem is that Turkey is a European country. It's been accepted as such. Israel is not a European country in any capacity. It's another Morocco.Turkey is not a European country, just like Russia isn't an Asian country. Just because it finds itself having 3% of its territory on the European continent, does not make it European. And Turkish accession will mean a dilution of the EU.


It's already happened. Part of the deal with joining the EU is the strengthening of democracy. The government in place are already islamists. This doesn't mean that Turkey is going to slip into some sort of islamic revolution. At the same time there is nothing wrong with Turkey having friendly relations with nations like Iran and Syria. In fact its enormously helpful.A good relationship can be achieved numerous ways short of EU membership.


Personally I think that Turkey will join, but not from a position of weakness. We will accept them into the union when they are a much stronger nation and see its accession as a benefit rather than a burden. As Turkeys economy grows and its political strength increases, along with its excellent relations with important energy players like Iran and Azerbaijan they will become a strategic country for European energy supply. Turkey will simply become indespensible. And i'd rather have a strong Europe than one that is based on xenophobia and fear.Again, EU membership is not the only way to maintain good relations with Turkey. At the end of the day, Turkey is not a European country. It has nothing to do with xenophobia or fear, it's simply that Turkey is not a European country, and it's inclusion into the EU will be a deathblow to an EU of greater integration.

[derkrieger]

@ derbedeu
Turkey is definitely a European country, there is no doubt in that.

Even as early as 1856, countries came up and put this in writing in the so-called Paris Treaty.
Turkey is definitely in Europe and it is European but it is no EU country and I hope it will remain as it is, i.e. out of EU.

Now enough of your Merkel-ian (or Sarkozy-esque) hate-laden xenophobic racist rants and long and meaningless posts with multi-quotes.

merci mon cher
au revoir

[RoyB]

A friend (from lebanon) told me that guy was in a wheel chair following repeated torture in Israeli jails.
But an history proffessor told me it was actually a disease he had?
As already answered, accident when he was a kid.

You should smack some facts into your friend..

[Estopped]

The EU doesn't want to take on those burdens. Allowing Turkey to accede will mean that it will have to start investing heavily into the Middle East Region in order to stabilize its borders. Looking at the history of the Middle East and all of its troubles, it's not something the EU can fix, nor is it something it can afford to try to fix.

Both Syria and Iran have stable borders. They are both friendly with Turkey. I can't see the problem. The Kurdish area of Iraq is the most stable area.


I got news for you, not one country is going to sell exclusively to only one nation. They're gonna sell to whoever can pay for it, and the euro is a very persuasive currency.China and India are both huge markets and will more than make up for Europe's lack of spine.


Which is yet another reason why nobody is going to endorse their membership, especially France and Germany.Until it happens that is.


Easier said than done. In EU nations where there's almost a 90% opposition to Turkish membership (e.g. Austria), any support would result in the ruling party getting kicked out, which is not something any party wants to do. Things change over time. I admit its a difficult obstacle. But the EU is fluid and the council of ministers is steadily having its power whittled down in favour of the parliament. In future EU enlargement may not be subject to unanimity. The future is not settled and political tides turn.


The Turks are already having second thoughts. I'm pretty certain that those will only solidify as it becomes apparent that Europe doesn't really want Turkey in the EU.They are already a candidate country. Unless they decide to be retarded and drop membership altogether they will steadily close chapters on accession.


I ignore political realities?! I hate to break it to you, but the two most powerful nations in Europe as well as several smaller ones are against Turkey's membership into the EU. They don't need any reason to reject Turkish membership, so long as they have a veto, nor will countries like Austria or France, which have made it a law to approve Turkish membership through referendum, ever vote yes. Laws can be changed. Sarkozy was a big change from Chirac and Turkeys candidate status has persisted for decades. Unless Sarkozy and Merkle are going to run for decades I don't think its right to determine the future just yet.



Then there's Cyprus, which Turkey still doesn't officially recognize! Things change. You're thinking about short term obstacles. Turkey will not be joining in the short term.



Yet another reason most EU nations don't want Turkey to join. It's one thing when you are poor, but small, and another when you are poor but large. It'll also mean that most EU nations will lose regional funding to Turkey, something that no one is really willing to give up.

This is the case with all subsequent enlargements. As current EU members get richer they contribute to the development of others. You are just trying to put obstacles in every direction when the development of the EU has shown that these haven't stopped it enlarging.



And neither is Turkey.
Except it is. It has territory in Europe. Israel has zero territory in Europe.


Yes, sure. :roll:

Armenia and Azerbaijan will settle their territorial dispute just like that, Georgia's problems over Abkhazia and South Ossetia will just disappear, and Ukraine will no longer be a black hole of corruption.Like i've previously alluded to. Things change. It was that long ago that the balkans were in full scale war, or the likes of Spain and Greece were in the throes of dictatorship. If you can't recognise the power of the EU to change, reform and encourage nations to solve their disputes then i'm afraid you are ignorant of the 50+ years or so.



Unfortunately that's a very optimistic view that doesn't reflect reality.Why?

Which Balkan states do you think will be outside of the EU in the next 15 years?


Yes, Turkey's GDP is close to a trillion dollars, but it would still be in the red when it comes to the EU ledger, receiving more funds then it will give out.
Actually the opposite is true. Unless you can predict the future then I don't think you are right.


Turkey is not a European country, just like Russia isn't an Asian country. Just because it finds itself having 3% of its territory on the European continent, does not make it European. And Turkish accession will mean a dilution of the EU. How is Russia a European country and Turkey not?

The vast majority of Russia's territory is in Asia that goes far beyond that of Turkey. Turkey joining the EU won't dilute the EU anymore than any other previous enlargement - which consequently was opposed aswell by the likes of France and Germany. The Uk was vetoed on several occasions by the French.

You are making contradictory arguments now.


A good relationship can be achieved numerous ways short of EU membership.I think Turkey in the EU would be a positive influence on all involved. It will increase the EU's power, reach and ability to influence others. Pushing turkey away will achieve nothing.



Again, EU membership is not the only way to maintain good relations with Turkey. At the end of the day, Turkey is not a European country. It has nothing to do with xenophobia or fear, it's simply that Turkey is not a European country, and it's inclusion into the EU will be a deathblow to an EU of greater integration.Turkey is a European country and this is acknowledged by the fact that it is an EU candidate country. you are simply drawing the wool over your eyes now. You could at least be honest and say that it is more to do with cultural issues or the fact that the free movement of 80 million turks will be unprecedented in EU history. Because those are the issues that scare the likes of Austria and Germany.

[Al-Bundy]

@ derbedeu
Turkey is definitely a European country, there is no doubt in that.
Nope it isn't. There are more to be European than to occupy a small chunk of land in the Balkans who was occupied few centuries back.



Even as early as 1856, countries came up and put this in writing in the so-called Paris Treaty.At 1856 the Ottoman empire still held most of the balkans so it had a say in Europe.



Turkey is definitely in Europe and it is European but it is no EU country and I hope it will remain as it is, i.e. out of EU.Russian has Kaliningrad in the Baltics but it doesn't make Russia a Baltic state.

[Sumadinac]

Turkey has nothing in common with my culture, nothing is shared with my values, the European way of life. Why would we want Turkey to join then?

Hopefully our German friends seem to get it. And strangely, the only country in EU that wants a weak Union (UK), is incredibely in favor of the Turkish case. How funny is that.

I totally agree with you, Turkey and european civilisation have nothing in common. Partnership, yes, but full membership, no.

Just imagine, with Turkey as a member, UE would have borders with Syria, Iran, and Irak!

[derkrieger]

so it is justified for Turkey to turn east.
so none of you MAY get angry and say stuff like "this will cause you trouble in your EU voyage" when Turkish PM snubs an Israeli minister or when he says good stuff about Ahmedinazi of Iran.
so why this thread?
I am telling you you have almost no importance and credibility in Turkish eyes and I know that this is what bothers you most. Yes you guys are as irrelevant as you have never been since the reign of the mighty Ottoman sultans who saw in you backward infidels with weak armies.
C'est la Vie !!!

[Derbedeu]

:roll:

Give me a break man. Just because I don't think that Turkey is not a European country does not mean that I think any less of it. Nor does it make me any xenophobic or racist, no more than pointing out that China isn't a European country either. In case you haven't noticed, I never qualified that being European is better or something cause it's not. At the end of the day we're still all people one way or another. Though we are all different, these differences should be celebrated and respected, not condemned out of fear. Turkey has a rich history culture, something it can take pride in. One thing that has always earned my admiration is Turkey's commitment to secularism, myself being an ardent believer in the concept of separation between church (or in this case mosque) and state.

I'm all for close relations with Turkey, especially as I see the effects of Turkish investment in my country, and nothing would please me more than to see Turkey and the EU work hand in hand to solve the problems that affect us today. And I honestly believe that Turkey can play a key role in this, as it is a model for other nations in the region.

But as most of your compatriots, as well as you have stated, I do not think that EU membership would be of benefit to either Turkey or the EU.

[Sumadinac]

Israel is an ally and a Jews are our former protegees so we will keep an eye on our former State in the Middle East and safeguard their well-being. What has changed may be the way we treat you Arabs and Jews. You are our former subjects, whom we cared for, dearly and diligently. Today's Turkey sounds and behaves like the EMPIRE. That is what happens today. Kids are just fight and the elderly are telling you to calm down.
.

I see here a strong superiority complex...

Damn! :cantbeli: You guys really think that you are so special or what? just wake up! you don't have gold blood in your veins, and you are not more in position to give lessons to jews or arabs than any other nation... :roll:

[derkrieger]

You call people racists because they simply don't agree with you on the fact that Turkey is not in Europe. That is stupid.
seriosly you are the one throwing insults here and there.
Do not expect me to believe that you believe that calling someone "racist" is an insult in your own world.
I am sure, you and your buddies at your beer table get a hard-on when you call yourselves "this" or "that", pretending to be tough guys.
I toleja I cannot be bothered to teach provincial people how to behave.
thanks for the laughs and take care.

[Chimera]

so it is justified for Turkey to turn east.

I will be more than happy if Turkey does turn east/south/north. Or in any dimensional direction that is not West.


I am telling you you have almost no importance and credibility in Turkish eyes and I know that this is what bothers you most.

So why the membership?


Yes you guys are as irrelevant as you have never been since the reign of the mighty Ottoman sultans who saw in you backward infidels with weak armies.
C'est la Vie !!!

It fits me very well this way.

[derkrieger]

:roll:

Give me a break man. Just because I don't think that Turkey is not a European country does not mean that I think any less of it. Nor does it make me any xenophobic or racist, no more than pointing out that China isn't a European country either. In case you haven't noticed, I never qualified that being European is better or something cause it's not. At the end of the day we're still all people one way or another. Though we are all different, these differences should be celebrated and respected, not condemned out of fear. Turkey has a rich history culture, something it can take pride in. One thing that has always earned my admiration is Turkey's commitment to secularism, myself being an ardent believer in the concept of separation between church (or in this case mosque) and state.

I'm all for close relations with Turkey, especially as I see the effects of Turkish investment in my country, and nothing would please me more than to see Turkey and the EU work hand in hand to solve the problems that affect us today. And I honestly believe that Turkey can play a key role in this, as it is a model for other nations in the region.

But as most of your compatriots, as well as you have stated, I do not think that EU membership would be of benefit to either Turkey or the EU.

If EU is out of question, we should think about the customs union issue at once my-brother-sir.
Turkey sees that EU is a diluted and failed attempt at a super-duper EU-state. As it is now, it will bring more woes to us than it serves our interests.
We will keep out of it and we will design our own foreign policy as we see it fit.
It may get islamist or nationalist or secular at different places at the same time, BUT alas meet new and multi-faceted Turkish Republic.
It has the cultural and historic advantage and enjoy good relations almost with everyone, even with Israel, I am sure th,ings will be fixed, for we are the only ones, who do not categorically deny the Jews a right to exist FOR they are jews. You catch my drift?
Especially during Obama presidency Israel will have almost no friends but us.
and I assure you, Turks love and respect Israel. I personally admire them on many accounts.
all in all, Turkey may turn to east or west or south or north. why?
BECAUSE IT CAN.

[Chimera]

seriosly you are the one throwing insults here and there

Where did I insult you?

[BorisA]

I totally agree with you, Turkey and european civilisation have nothing in common. Partnership, yes, but full membership, no. YES THIS IS NEW MORDOR.......auuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!



Just imagine, with Turkey as a member, UE would have borders with Syria, Iran, and Irak!
Just imagine with Croatia as a member the EU would have common borders with Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro* and the Kosovo**...so why look for ethnic cleaning, war and genocide in the ME if you can have it directly in front of your door?

Ps it is amazing to see so many experts in geography, history and anthropology in one single forum...and whats even more amazing is the interdisciplinity.


* Croatia shares a common border with Montenegro
** but not with the Kosovo

[Al-Bundy]

I am telling you you have almost no importance and credibility in Turkish eyes and I know that this is what bothers you most. Yes you guys are as irrelevant as you have never been since the reign of the mighty Ottoman sultans who saw in you backward infidels with weak armies.
C'est la Vie !!!

The only irrelevant person in this discussion is you. First of all you are not from Turkey so you cannot talk as a Turkish citizen about this topic or even as a European. And secondly you more irrelevant to the history books if you think Ottoman empire brought anything but bad in the Balkans.Still haven't met someone from the Balkans to say something positive or even remotely nice about Ottoman Turkey.

Then leave us "infidels club" alone.

[derkrieger]

So why the membership?

exactly my thoughts..
why-o-why?
Turkey should stop this membership blabla for it KNOWS that it will never be a member of EU, due to, but not limited to, religious and national bias.
European Union and its diplomatic representatives (not the reps of member states, do not misunderstand it) should leave the country ASAP..
then what?
EU and its members will lose the only leverage they have on Turkey, namely, allegedly, juicy and inviting membership carrot.

[Derbedeu]

Estopped, let me make this as clear as possible, there is such a thing as expanding too much too soon. Having been born on one continent, raised on another, and done my fair amount of traveling, I have always considered myself to be somewhat of an internationalist. The EU is something I hold dear because it is a unique institution, something that has never been attempted before, certainly not as successfully. It also pleases me to see others, like for example the African Union, follow the EU's path and attempt to put aside their differences and work together for a better future.

It's very idealistic, I know. However I do have my practical side as well. While we live in a globalized world, an Irishman still has more in common with a German then he would with a Japanese. Rapid expansion that precludes people learning to overcome their prejudices and pettiness can lead to the whole experiment crashing down. And that would be tragic indeed.

[Hollis]

Where did I insult you?


Your words:


You sure are clever as a cow.

The post was deleted.


For everyone; Let's get back on topic and keep it civil.

[derkrieger]

Where did I insult you?
Hollis was quicker.

[derkrieger]

The only irrelevant person in this discussion is you. First of all you are not from Turkey so you cannot talk as a Turkish citizen about this topic or even as a European. And secondly you more irrelevant to the history books if you think Ottoman empire brought anything but bad in the Balkans.Still haven't met someone from the Balkans to say something positive or even remotely nice about Ottoman Turkey.

Then leave us "infidels club" alone.
I reckon you come from Serbia.
I meant EU authorities.
so you are really irrelevant in this sense, for Serbia has got nothing to do with what I write here.

[derkrieger]

Estopped, let me make this as clear as possible, there is such a thing as expanding too much too soon. Having been born on one continent, raised on another, and done my fair amount of traveling, I have always considered myself to be somewhat of an internationalist. The EU is something I hold dear because it is a unique institution, something that has never been attempted before, certainly not as successfully. It also pleases me to see others, like for example the African Union, follow the EU's path and attempt to put aside their differences and work together for a better future.

It's very idealistic, I know. However I do have my practical side as well. While we live in a globalized world, an Irishman still has more in common with a German then he would with a Japanese. Rapid expansion that precludes people learning to overcome their prejudices and pettiness can lead to the whole experiment crashing down. And that would be tragic indeed.
you are not practicicing what you preach, derbedeu !!
read the quoted post of yours again, then get back and read your xenophobic and racist rants.
you are not an internationalist at all.
thank you.

[Al-Bundy]

I reckon you come from Serbia.
I meant EU authorities.
so you are really irrelevant in this sense, for Serbia has got nothing to do with what I write here.

Not from Serbia. NOT EVEN REMOTELY. EU citizen... sorry to disappoint you.

[Derbedeu]

you are not practicicing what you preach, derbedeu !!
read the quoted post of yours again, then get back and read your xenophobic and racist rants.
you are not an internationalist at all.
thank you.

I'm sorry to disappoint you... :roll:

[Nickchios]

Turkey's Transformers

The AKP Sees Big
Morton Abramowitz (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/author/morton-abramowitz) and Henri J. Barkey (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/author/henri-j-barkey)
November/December 2009 (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/issues/2009/88/6)
Summary --
Turkey hopes to be a global power, but it has not yet become even the regional player that the ruling AKP declares it to be. Can the AKP do better, or will it be held back by its Islamist past and the conservative inclinations of its core constituents?
MORTON ABRAMOWITZ, a Senior Fellow at the Century Foundation, was U.S. Ambassador to Turkey in 1989-91. HENRI J. BARKEY is a nonresident Senior Associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and Professor of International Relations at Lehigh University

Under the leadership of the Justice and Development Party (AKP), Turkey's foreign policy is becoming more Islamic. Can the country's history of cooperation with the West survive?

In recent years, Turkey has earned kudos from the international community for its economic dynamism, its energetic and confident diplomacy, and its attempts to confront some of its deepest foreign policy problems, such as in northern Iraq and Cyprus. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has said that Turkey is one of seven rising powers with which the United States will actively collaborate to resolve global problems. But Turkey has not yet become the global, or even regional, player that its government declares it to be. These days, as always, daunting domestic issues are bedeviling Turkey's progress. Increasingly polarized views about the leadership of the ruling Justice and Development Party (known as the AKP) have undermined the government's ability to spearhead profound political change. Even some of the AKP's traditional supporters have begun to question whether the party will follow through on its goals, including that of getting Turkey to join the European Union.
There are two camps. The first, and largest, group, which includes center-right politicians, liberals, and the religious, fully supports the AKP. It sees the party as fighting the dead hand of the past to free Turkish politics from subjugation by the military and the judiciary. To most AKP supporters, the party is genuinely committed to instituting a much greater measure of democracy and tackling Turkey's most difficult issue: recognizing the democratic rights of its large Kurdish population. According to them, the party is serious about meeting the difficult requirements for EU accession and about launching fresh and constructive diplomatic initiatives in the Middle East, Central Asia, and the Caucasus. And they interpret the widespread claims that the AKP wants to establish a religious state as both fanciful and retrograde.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/65464/morton-abramowitz-and-henri-j-barkey/turkeys-transformers

[Sumadinac]

Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro* and the Kosovo**

I am very sorry but if you think that nowadays Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and even Kosovo can be compared with totalitarists and supporters of terrorism regims like Syria and Iran, then you really should get a new brain.

Just answer to this simple questions;

Do you think that Turkey is for its main part, geographically located in europe?

Do you also think that Turkey is a country that was build from european civilisation?

Do you think that turkish mentality and values are european?

What Turkish culture share in common with european values?

[derkrieger]

Not from Serbia. NOT EVEN REMOTELY. EU citizen... sorry to disappoint you.
If from EU you are still irrelevant as I wrote above. I am not dissappointed at all.
why should I honey?

[Al-Bundy]

The point of Cultural Incompatibility was mentioned but no one replied. Let's hope they will give a proper answer this time.

[Al-Bundy]

If from EU you are still irrelevant as I wrote above. I am not dissappointed at all.
why should I honey?

I as a EU citizen have a say if Turkey can be part of EU or not. A person from Azerbaijan does not influence things in any way.

[chris450]

I am very sorry but if you think that nowadays Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and even Kosovo can be compared with totalitarists and supporters of terrorism regims like Syria and Iran, then you really should get a new brain.

Just answer to this simple questions;

Do you think that Turkey is for its main part, geographically located in europe?

Do you also think that Turkey is a country that was build from european civilisation?

Do you think that turkish mentality and values are european?

What Turkish culture share in common with european values?

you summed it up pretty good,thumbs up

[Estopped]

Estopped, let me make this as clear as possible, there is such a thing as expanding too much too soon.

And i'm not suggesting the EU should admit Turkey tomorrow. I'm thinking in 10 if not 20 or 30 years time. I also think the African union is a joke. If you're looking for a credible development i'd say that Unisur is probably a better bet.

I also hold the EU quite dearly and sincerely believe that it should develop and grow sustainably. I'd like to see the EU stretch from Iberia to Siberia.

[Rastagir]

If the Kemalist camp continues its fight with the AKP, Ankara could be heading for a crisis that might end all hope of Turkish accession.


I think this sums up the European fear good.

As I see it, Europe has problems with both identities: the muslim one and the secular-military one. It might work for Turkey (and, as things seem from where I am sitting, it does) but for Europe? Like it or not, there IS discrimination between muslims and christians, especially when we talk about 70.000.000 people. I know that most Turks will argue that their country is secular (and it is) but the ugly truth is that this does not negate the fact that the predominant population is muslim. And this does not sit well with europeans, which witnessed first hand what happened in Former Yugoslavia 15 years ago.

Furthermore, the role the army plays in Turkey is also a unique one for Europe. No politicial likes to be checked by the army because the mentality is that the army is there to serve the system, not the other way around. Europe has had bitter experiences with military juntas in the past and, although we all know that this is not the case in Turkey, no one likes the idea of an army with powers.

Finally, and let's admit this, the bigger nations of EU will not easily accept another big one within their midst yelding equal or even greater power. Right now, there is France and Germany which make a strong axis and give lead. Things will get ugly if another power gets involved, especally a power which shows that has no qualms turning against former allies or deviating from the norm in order to pursuit it's own agenda (which, I may add, is not bad for Turkey itself, but might be for it's allies).

Personally, I find Turkey's external policy aggressive, smart, and right on the spot. But it is a dangerous and difficult road.

[Al-Bundy]

:roll:
One thing that has always earned my admiration is Turkey's commitment to secularism, myself being an ardent believer in the concept of separation between church (or in this case mosque) and state.

After displacing, eliminating ... their christian (Armenian, Greek, Assyrian) minorities does it really matter if Turkey is Secular or not? 99% of the country is of only one religion through non-secular policies. Honor killings are a phenomenon in Turkey and in Turkish diaspora. Few years back catholic priests were murdered and also few Turkish Converts.

[Player]

Especially during Obama presidency Israel will have almost no friends but us.

Hahaha sorry but this is BS. Turkey (and also the US) aren't the only friends of Israel.

Israel has got a number of friends in Europe (Germany, UK and Serbia), in Asia (India, Singapore, the Philippines, Thailand, Azerbaijan, Georgia and quite good relations with Russia as well), in N. America (Canada and Mexico), in S. America (Colombia), in Africa (S. Africa and Angola) and in Oceania (Micronesia).

P.S. Even with the Obama administration, the US will stay a close ally of Israel and vice versa.

[4X4Driver]

I totally agree with you, Turkey and european civilisation have nothing in common. Partnership, yes, but full membership, no.

So what's all the fuss is about Turkey turning Eastwards. Most Turks here are aginst the EU membersip + 70% of them in Turkey declares this.


Just imagine, with Turkey as a member, UE would have borders with Syria, Iran, and Irak!

Yeah..just imagine that. When the current gov't turns the country into a Islamic regime with the support of EU, you will have no choice BUT to border a counry like Iran..just imagine that ;)


After displacing, eliminating ... their christian (Armenian, Greek, Assyrian) minorities does it really matter if Turkey is Secular or not? 99% of the country is of only one religion through non-secular policies. Honor killings are a phenomenon in Turkey and in Turkish diaspora. Few years back catholic priests were murdered and also few Turkish Converts.

Please don't insult our intelligence...we're pretty much aware of the situation in some "civilized" EU countries. In one their gypsy minority doesn't even have the country's citizenship, in other the Russian minority isn't recognized as citizens, in another one some minorities simply just don't "exist"..so, don't give us that BS..when EU want's to look away, they just do that ;)

I say it again..majority in Turkey is not pro EU..only the curret gov't pretentds like they are pro EU for their own gains in the accession proccess.

[Derbedeu]

So what's all the fuss is about Turkey turning Eastwards. Most Turks here are aginst the EU membersip + 70% of them in Turkey declares this.

4x4, is Turkey required to have a referendum in order to join the EU? Or is it just parliamentary assent?

[4X4Driver]

Hahaha sorry but this is BS. Turkey (and also the US) aren't the only friends of Israel.

I think he mant "in the region"

[Player]

I think he mant "in the region"

That's why he mentioned the US?

[4X4Driver]

4x4, is Turkey required to have a referendum in order to join the EU? Or is it just parliamentary assent?

as of now, it is parliamentary assent, but the latest developmnts makes the prez talk about referandum. I hope they take that way.

[4X4Driver]

That's why he mentioned the US?


US is in the region..isn't it?

[Al-Bundy]

So what's all the fuss is about Turkey turning Eastwards. Most Turks here are aginst the EU membersip + 70% of them in Turkey declares this.
The fuss is not about Turkey turning eastwards. Good luck with that. We all wish you the best.
The fuss is about Turkey joining EU.



Yeah..just imagine that. When the current gov't turns the country into a Islamic regime with the support of EU, you will have no choice BUT to border a counry like Iran..just imagine that ;)Is that a threat?
You are free to do whatever you want with your constitution. If you don't like Islamic regimes then you should stop voting Islamic governments. Not that we care.




Please don't insult our intelligence...we're pretty much aware of the situation in some "civilized" EU countries. In one their gypsy minority doesn't even have the coutry's citizenship, in other the Russian minority isn't recognized as citizens, in another one some minorities simply don't "exist"..so, don't give us that BS ;)If you compare Armenian genocide, Greek genocide and the Kurdish rebellion in progress with gypsies and Russian in EU countries then you need a reality check.



I say it again..majority in Turkey is not pro EU..only the curret gov't pretentds like they are pro EU for their own gains in the accession proccess.Again I wish it remains as such if true.

[BorisA]

After displacing, eliminating ... their christian (Armenian, Greek, Assyrian) minorities does it really matter if Turkey is Secular or not? Sorry that we weren't so quick like the "Europeans" with our homogenization efforts. We just started rather late, at the very end when the other folks of the Ottoman Empire had already discovered nationalism and started their uprises. And again sorry that the Ottoman empire was for a medieval quite tolerant and allowed people to follow their religious beliefes. That there was no forced conversions, no extinction of the local languages. Yeah sorry for that!

I wonder in comparision where the linguistic diversity of France that existed there till the end of the 18th century remains? Or what is the current numbers of the "Huguenots" in France. How many Gaelic speakers are left on the British Islands? Where was the "European civilization" in the crematoriums of Auschwitz and Treblinka? This question list could be endless....



I am very sorry but if you think that nowadays Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and even Kosovo can be compared with totalitarists and supporters of terrorism regims like Syria and Iran, then you really should get a new brain.

Just answer to this simple questions;

Do you think that Turkey is for its main part, geographically located in europe?

Do you also think that Turkey is a country that was build from european civilisation?

Do you think that turkish mentality and values are european?

What Turkish culture share in common with european values? Of course Serbia is no danger anymore. After Nato bombed and threatened you, you made up your minds (hmm in your words: gave you some "new brains")

Even if we follow the old scheme Turkey has territory in Europenot the mayorty but still something in comparision to Cyprus with is on the continental shelf of Asia. But imho, and not just mine, this division of Asia and Europe is, in purely geographic terms, non-sense and nonscientific.
The Europe that we recognize currently (including historic changes etc.) is just a stopover, like the definitions that existed before.

But what is more important is the question: what is "European Civilization"?

If you consider human rights, democracry, republicanism, emancipation as fruits of it than my answer is yes. And its manifestation you see in our constitution, in struggled but nevertheless free press, free elections, emancipation efforts and a overall democratic discurse. And also not to forget shared history and social interaction.



Honor killings are a phenomenon in Turkey and in Turkish diaspora. So the (former) honour killings in Sicily and the Balkans are part of the "European Civilization" while the one of Turks are not? Please tell me you make honour killings the european style and how the asiatic way?

[Player]

US is in the region..isn't it?

Ok let's play who is the biggest smartass here.

http://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/world-map.gif

Where is the US again?

[Scythian]

The Turks in Iran.
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06Gf2a28i95A6/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05bi9Uj9uB15o/610x.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gfrdMva5peb1/610x.jpg

[Derbedeu]

as of now, it is parliamentary assent, but the latest developmnts makes the prez talk about referandum. I hope they take that way.

Thanks for the info.

[4X4Driver]

The fuss is not about Turkey turning eastwards. Good luck with that. We all wish you the best.
The fuss is about Turkey joining EU.

Thanks..and we've been saying "we don't want it" so quit making it sound like we all want it for you to puke your hatered on us..keep your private issues with Turks out of this discussion.


Is that a threat?

Nope..just a fact that as long as EU backs the gov't in Turkey, you will be bordering a country like Iran. :)




If you compare Armenian genocide, Greek genocide and the Kurdish rebellion in progress with gypsies and Russian in EU countries then you need a reality check.

Again..trying to insult our intelligence without checking with your own capacity. What you're referring to allegedly happened 100 years ago, what I'm talking about is happenin right now in your "civilized" club :)

[4X4Driver]

Ok let's play who is the biggest smartass here.

http://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/world-map.gif

Where is the US again?

Right here...


http://whatafteriraq.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/iraq_map.png

[Try&die]

Scythian, tell us what you have on your agenda.

[Al-Bundy]

Again..trying to insult our intelligence without checking with your own capacity. What you're referring to allegedly happened 100 years ago, what I'm talking about is happenin right now in your "civilized" club :)

Kurdish rebelion with tanks, cobras, f-16, f-4... is happening as we speak. S

The attitude for the denial of these historical events( including illegal invasion of Cyprous) does not pass in the EU or the rest of Europe.

[Al-Bundy]

Scythian, tell us what you have on your agenda.

I will help you.

That Turks came from the East and have left a trail of people from the lands they passed.
That Turks are culturally related to Central Asia.

[Scythian]

Scythian, tell us what you have on your agenda.
Me? Well nothing really.I just like to read on the progress of powerful muslim countries (I do not consider the Saudi's or Gulf Arabs to be powerful at all.)But Iran and Turkey.

[BorisA]

including illegal invasion of Cyprous

As a reaction to the ethnic cleaning and mass murder of the so called-civilized Greeks under their military Junta. And whole "Western Europe" was watching...and the only acting were the evil, evil Turks who were the only ones which managed to establish peace on the Island.

[4X4Driver]

Kurdish rebelion with tanks, cobras, f-16, f-4... is happening as we speak. S

Right..and we're not a member of a "civilized" EU as you...and if you're opposing this, you are clearly supporting terror. Than if/when terror hits you, you should have an understanding for them.


The attitude for the denial of these historical events( including illegal invasion of Cyprous) does not pass in the EU or the rest of Europe.

You clearly have an private issue with the Turks..cuz even a such "humanitarian" as you can't deny what happened in Cyprus if no personal issues wasn't involved ;)

[Player]

Right here...


http://whatafteriraq.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/iraq_map.png

Following your logic the US is located all around the world...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/US_military_bases_in_the_world-1.svg/800px-US_military_bases_in_the_world-1.svg.png

But we're talking here about the US itself. Hint: The black part of the world map above.

[/game over]

Why not just ask derkrieger what he really meant?

[Try&die]

I will help you.

That Turks came from the East and have left a trail of people from the lands they passed.
That Turks are culturally related to Central Asia.

I don't know if you are beaten up by a Turk or a Turk ****ed your girlfriend, but what ever it is you have with Turks, we don't give a ****. So STFU.

[4X4Driver]

Not from Serbia. NOT EVEN REMOTELY. EU citizen... sorry to disappoint you.

Tell us where you're from. You sound like one of those poor EU countries that benefits most from being a member. Are you afraid of you'll get less if Turkey joins :)

[Try&die]

Me? Well nothing really.I just like to read on the progress of powerful muslim countries (I do not consider the Saudi's or Gulf Arabs to be powerful at all.)But Iran and Turkey.

Go on with your reading and stop posting about Turkey.

[Al-Bundy]

As a reaction to the ethnic cleaning and mass murder of the so called-civilized Greeks under their military Junta. And whole "Western Europe" was watching...and the only acting were the evil, evil Turks who were the only ones which managed to establish peace on the Island.

The "peace loving Turks"...... nice try.

What about the sea of refugees from Kurdish provinces that you have send to Europe from the 70ies till now days?
Where they fed up with too mouch Turkish peace as others (Armenians, Greeks,Assyrians, Cypriots) before them.

[Scythian]

Go on with your reading and stop posting about Turkey.

I was simply just curious on members opinion that is all.

[Try&die]

I was simply just curious on members opinion that is all.

Ok, now you got your answer. Stop posting about Turkey.

[4X4Driver]

The "peace loving Turks"...... nice try.

What about the sea of refugees from Kurdish provinces that you have send to Europe from the 70ies till now days?
Where they fed up with too mouch Turkish peace as others (Armenians, Greeks,Assyrians, Cypriots) before them.

They were guest workers.

So..why don't you be "civilized" and give a simple citizenship to some minorities in EU??
We do what ever we want..after all, we're not "civilized" enough to be in your club..(thank God)

[Derbedeu]

This thread is heading for the precipice http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8061/covri.gif (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/covri.gif/)

Let's all calm down please, otherwise this thread is gonna get locked.

[4X4Driver]

This thread is heading for the precipice http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8061/covri.gif (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/covri.gif/)

Let's all calm down please, otherwise this thread is gonna get locked.


Exactly!

We DON'T want to be EU member

We're looking towards East more and more..

So..why is the fuss??