When government is the issue

[Ordie]

When government is the issue

Jeff Gillenkirk
Tuesday, October 27, 2009
At least since Ronald Reagan's 1980 presidential campaign, America's neoconservative movement has tarred government as the major problem in Americans' lives and called for it to be defunded. A major strategy of defunding, of course, is cutting taxes. "I think it is the people's money," George W. Bush said during his 2000 presidential campaign.
Well, it's also your government, and to appreciate what that means all you have to do is go outside and stand in front of where you live or work. Chances are it won't be as busy as where I'm standing - the corner of Stanyan and Waller streets in San Francisco - but the exercise is the same. Look around and note the number of sites and services that depend upon the institution. But neoconservatives dare not speak its name.
First, the sidewalk I'm standing on was poured and paved by city government. So were Stanyan and Waller streets and all the streets running parallel and perpendicular to them. The sewers below are the work of government, as are the Municipal Railway power lines running above, the buses attached to the lines and the traffic lights, crosswalks, lanes (both auto and bicycle) and signs directing the traffic flow.
Drivers and the cars they operate are licensed by government. Automobile safety regulations, highway safety and emissions standards are all set by government.
Across Stanyan stands a McDonald's, its meat, dairy and other food products subject to government inspection. Its food preparation is examined by city health inspectors, its workers protected by government health and safety regulations, minimum-wage laws, anti-discriminations laws and the long-term benefits provided by Social Security and Medicare.
Next to the restaurant is a row of apartment buildings, all kept livable in adherence to government building codes, zoning regulations and landlord-tenant laws. Pipes bringing water in and sewage out of the apartments are financed and maintained by government. So are the streetlights.
Next to the apartment building is Kezar Pub, its distribution of liquor subject to age limits and hours of operation enforced by government. The billboard looming behind the street-side trees (planted and maintained by government) brings to mind the size, location and content limitations set by public referendum. Visible down Waller Street is the San Francisco Child Abuse Prevention Center, a nonprofit organization funded in part by federal, state and local government to provide a refuge from domestic violence, and family counseling to heal wounds that can hurt our community.
Behind me is Golden Gate Park, a thousand acres of city-owned, city-maintained parklands, set aside for the enjoyment of San Francisco's 750,000 residents and visitors from around the world. The park contains gardens, hiking trails, bike paths, a children's play area, a world-class art museum, an arboretum, a new Academy of Sciences, soccer fields, baseball diamonds, racquetball courts, tennis courts, horseshoe pits, lawn bowling and picnic areas, equestrian trails and public restrooms. At the northern edge of the park is government-run Kezar Stadium, used for high school track meets and football games (and used by thousands of freelance joggers in between), and Kezar Pavilion, a huge gymnasium used for high school basketball games, summer basketball leagues and other events.
Behind Kezar is the San Francisco Police Department's Park precinct, providing public safety for citizens of the Haight and denizens of Golden Gate Park. Next to me is a call box for the San Francisco Fire Department. On the hillside up Parnassus Street looms UCSF, where government-financed medical research, training for doctors, nurses and paraprofessionals, and subsidized health care for thousands of students and San Franciscans takes place.
A homeless man weaves by, perhaps destined for a city-run hospital or county jail before the evening is out, or a drug and alcohol rehab program. Overhead a commercial jetliner flies westward from government-owned SFO, conforming to safety regulations of the Federal Aviation Administration, the guidance of federal air traffic controllers and the protection of federal air marshals and Homeland Security contractors.
You get the picture. We live in a civilized society with an array of sophisticated public services (this account didn't even include the military). Those who claim they don't need government should try living one day without it. Then, it is hoped, they'll stop advocating its starvation and pay their share.
Jeff Gillenkirk is a San Francisco writer. His novel, "Home, Away," will be published in April by Chin Music Press.

Source:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/27/EDMH1AAQLC.DTL&type=printable

[Mu-Meson]

Sidewalks, city parks, food safety regulations, county jail, SFPD, building codes, sewers, electricity. Hmm, and you know what the common factor between all of these are? The FEDERAL government has no goddamn business being involved in them. I'm ****ing Canadian and even I know that federalizing every issue is contrary to the spirit and the letter of the US Constitution. The simple fact is: trying to run a country of 300+ million people from a central location with a one size fits all approach is stupid, and ultimately doomed to fail. It failed in USSR, and China is slowly moving away from it too.

Oh, and holding California up as an example that the rest of the US should emulate would be laughable if the author weren't so earnest. That is just sad, and delusion.

[Ordie]

Oh, and holding California up as an example that the rest of the US should emulate would be laughable if the author weren't so earnest. That is just sad, and delusion.

Heaven forbid that you become a paraplegic and confined to a wheelchair with no sidewalks.

[bryanleu2002]

Whats next? a police state?

Good article, thanks ordie..

Bry

[manberries]

Government should be involved in those things that fall under the theory of utility (not the ethics one). That is there are certain things that it is near impossible for a person to run as a business. Things like roads are a great example. There is no way each road could demand seperate payment (no matter how small the cost) for each private owner to be able to profit and maintain it. The government can collect the total cost needs as taxes, and repair it; usually without profit. However, the fixing and building of these roads should be contracted to private organizations. I don't think the real conservative movement in the US touts that the government needs to be dismantled (Those are not conservatives at all, but Anarchists). The conservative movement, which is frankly the majority of the US now, desires less intervention than current. This means an end to the government owning businesses, keeping healthcare private with only government assistance not control, and such things that can be run effectively privately. If your argument is that government is needed for infastructure, fine. Yet, this sad article (from San Fransisco no less) attempts to marginalize the conservative movement. The US political spectrum is more conservative now because big government has gotten out of control (due to both Bush and Obama). When the country goes too far into one or the other political spectrum the population corrects it. Let me reiterate. The conservative movement is not about taking all government funding from schools, subsidies to different sectors when absolutely needed, or any of this wack job stuff. The conservative movement is about reducing the current amounts of each of these government interventions to more fiscally responsible and acceptable levels. What erks me the most is this thought that conservatives wish to get rid of building codes and such safety laws. It is a lie and nothing but a childish attack on a legitimate and growing movement in both the US and Europe. Posting this kind of marginalizing, polarizing, and blatantly incorrect article is simply irresponsible.

[Zarak]

Yet another hilarious article from SFGate. Thanks for sharing these with us, ordie, every day, sometimes multiple times a day. Its almost like I lived in San Fran myself, without the AIDS and hippies.

[Ordie]

Yet Americans will always demand action from their policymakers whenever the private sector fails to deliver.

[manberries]

Marginalizing Americans now? Perhaps it is just a very loud few members disenchanted with capitalism? Welcome to America. Everything is blown out of proportion by the bleeding hearts and project habitants. The truth is Americans are utterly outraged over the entire stimulus and bailout situation. Many people offered far better and cheaper solutions than bailouts the moment it all came tumbling down. Sure, it was government intervention, but on a much smaller scale. Funny thing is that all of that 2 trillion spent and the most effective measure was the debt trading allowed between banks. Guess what, that part cost about 10 million in total to enact. Again, the conservative movement is not supporting laze fair approach to economics. Most liberals and republicans support the Keynseian model of interventionist economics. We only differ in the degree of intervention. However, certain members of the Democrat party belong in the Socialist party. Mix this with a number of Republicans that belong in the same house and you get a mess. Bush spent too much, Obama is spending even more already; government got unnecessarily larger in both cases. The thing that so few outside the US (or those inside who don't pay attention) is that this movement includes people who consider themsevles both liberals and conservatives. The reason it includes both is because what is happening now does not fit the conservative or liberal capitalist views of the political spectrum. Only far leftist support Obama in great percentage. Take note of the ever growing number of Democrat senators and representatives who are directly opposing the Barny, Polosi, Reid, and Obama crowd.

[bryanleu2002]

Yet Americans will always demand action from their policymakers whenever the private sector fails to deliver.


Pfft! don't you got something better to do with your time?

if you have such a problem with American politics why don't you become one! and change the system?

I did, I am now a elected official in my county..

Bry

[MaverickCowboy]

Ordie. Why are you, you?

[hskywalker]

Sidewalks, city parks, food safety regulations, county jail, SFPD, building codes, sewers, electricity. Hmm, and you know what the common factor between all of these are? The FEDERAL government has no goddamn business being involved in them. I'm ****ing Canadian and even I know that federalizing every issue is contrary to the spirit and the letter of the US Constitution. The simple fact is: trying to run a country of 300+ million people from a central location with a one size fits all approach is stupid, and ultimately doomed to fail. It failed in USSR, and China is slowly moving away from it too.

Oh, and holding California up as an example that the rest of the US should emulate would be laughable if the author weren't so earnest. That is just sad, and delusion.
China isn't really moving away from this direction, but towards it. The running of sewers and electricity systems are somewhat more privatized than 10 years ago. Most other fields are having more government influence now, and these are one of the few area that people actually supports the government.:)
The actual work are contracted to private sector though, the spending can go from the government. At least from China's POV...

Why would people hate cleaner and wider sidewalks, more city parks, and more food regulations anyway?

[Ordie]

Pfft! don't you got something better to do with your time?

if you have such a problem with American politics why don't you become one! and change the system?

I did, I am now a elected official in my county..

Bry

Congratulations!!

I offer my sincere best wishes and good luck.

[Ordie]

Ordie. Why are you, you?


Because I'm an American.

[Ordie]

Why would people hate cleaner and wider sidewalks, more city parks, and more food regulations anyway?

Because people take it for granted.

[Jobu]

I stopped reading after the first sentence since the author obviously has no clue what a neoconservative is.

[tangosix]

I really love the anti-government fundies. I think they are right, we dont need a government. The armed forces should be bought by a mega corporation, just look at the heroes of blackwater.


DIE GOVERNMENT DIE!!!!

[tangosix]

what a neoconservative is.


Creationist morons, thats what they are. Many of tem are also quite racist. All in all, they are crazy people.

[brainplay]

Yet Americans will always demand action from their policymakers whenever the private sector fails to deliver.

And ironically that usually happens when the private sector is providing a service but regulated and controlled by the government.

The author is trying to simplify the authority issue by not differentiating between state and federal governments. But the kicker is in his last statement.


You get the picture. We live in a civilized society with an array of sophisticated public services (this account didn't even include the military). Those who claim they don't need government should try living one day without it. Then, it is hoped, they'll stop advocating its starvation and pay their share.

In short the author advocates higher taxes and alludes to even higher taxes for the rich. However, his arguement makes the assumption that current FEDERAL government spending trends are perfect but in need of more money while working under a Keynesian style of economics despite having used a majority of LOCAL government examples. He of course forgets that the conservatives are for shrinking FEDERAL government and instituting more LOCAL and STATE government which allows more accountability.

SFgate needs to get some better thought out editorials.

[Dominique]

While I'm all for lower taxes, and for everyone from local to federal agencies staying the hell out of peoples personal lives, there are a LOT of services that the federal government provides, that people take for granted. Ever travel on the interstate? Or fly in an aircraft? Who do you think regulates the system that allows all of those cheap foreign goods you buy to come into the US, or allows us to sell our goods overseas? And lets not forget that a good little chunk of the federal budget is spent on the defense budget.

Thanks to federal government "meddling" we have silly little things like the 40 hour work week, a minimum wage, food inspectors, etc. While it's far from perfect, could you imagine what it would be like if every state and/or territory tried to set it's own standards. Hell we can't get local governments to use the same radios, so we can talk to each other during emergencies.

[Jobu]

Ever travel on the interstate?

Yes, in fact the toll system we have here is headquartered in a palatial building commonly referred to as the Taj Mahal. It has a helipad, lavish furnishings, etc. The toll system collects nearly $1 billion in revenue (taxes) from drivers. Horribly inefficient. Well regulated? I don't think so.


Or fly in an aircraft?

The airlines are losing billions every year. They had $6 billion in losses in just the first 6 months of this year. Well regulated?


Who do you think regulates the system that allows all of those cheap foreign goods you buy to come into the US, or allows us to sell our goods overseas?

Our trade deficit is nearly $1 trillion per year. Well regulated?


And lets not forget that a good little chunk of the federal budget is spent on the defense budget.

The amount of waste at the DoD is legendary. Imagine how much better off our military men and women would be if DoD were run efficiently.



Government, by its very nature, is bad which is why we need to limit it as much as we possibly can. Private enterprise can run most government functions better and make it profitable instead of costing us so much year after year with no hope of ever becoming worth the price.

[Macs.]

http://i37.tinypic.com/s28ylg.jpg

[manberries]

Creationist morons, thats what they are. Many of tem are also quite racist. All in all, they are crazy people.


Ah, afraid of the conservative movement are we? Well, your shining president is failing, Polosi is corrupt, and your childish argument points mean you lost the moment you posted.

Sure, Ordie is cleary quite liberal for posting this. However, he isn't a child as he didn't feel the need to incorrectly insult the majority of Americans. My favorite part about these kinds of topics is extreme rarity of a liberal who can actually make an articulated point.

[Dominique]

Yes, in fact the toll system we have here is headquartered in a palatial building commonly referred to as the Taj Mahal. It has a helipad, lavish furnishings, etc. The toll system collects nearly $1 billion in revenue (taxes) from drivers. Horribly inefficient. Well regulated? I don't think so.

Apparently I have to break this down, as you completely missed the point I was making. The interstate system was, mandated, designed and funded by the federal government, not the local or state governments. I'll let you research why.



The airlines are losing billions every year. They had $6 billion in losses in just the first 6 months of this year. Well regulated?

I'm not talking about the airlines themselves, but a silly little organization called the FAA, that runs the radars that prevent all of this air traffic from crashing into each other, mandates minimum safety standards, etc. But hey if you cool with no one doing that...



Our trade deficit is nearly $1 trillion per year. Well regulated?

While our trade deficit may be huge, the government doesn't tell you to go out and buy product "X", that's made in county "Y". They do however establish some basic policies that prevent everyone and their mother from just doing whatever they feel like, set basic import standards, minimum safety standards on the products, and prevent companies from selling tech that could one day be used against us.


The amount of waste at the DoD is legendary. Imagine how much better off our military men and women would be if DoD were run efficiently.

Waste and fraud in the DoD is ridiculous, but you have your elected officials, lobbyists, etc to think for that. Not the "government" itself.



Government, by its very nature, is bad which is why we need to limit it as much as we possibly can. Private enterprise can run most government functions better and make it profitable instead of costing us so much year after year with no hope of ever becoming worth the price.

OK, I'll bite, which government functions do you suggest private industry provide? Law enforcement, education, national defense? I'll like to hear your explanation.

[MaverickCowboy]

I'm not talking about the airlines themselves, but a silly little organization called the FAA, that runs the radars that prevent all of this air traffic from crashing into each other, mandates minimum safety standards, etc. But hey if you cool with no one doing that...









Bull sheet. im a student pilot and all the towers around here are NOT federal.

[Jobu]

And you failed to see my point. I said I wanted to limit government as much as possible. I did not say I wanted to get rid of all government. All of my examples were about how inefficient the government is. It's one thing to create something, it's another to maintain it.

Hell we're still paying billions for the TVA more than 40 years later. The goddamn TVA, from FDR's administration, loses so much money it would make your head spin. Yea, we sure love that Kentucky Dam...

Yes, I do believe education could be much better run by private enterprise.
The mail.
The highways.
The airlines.
etc.


Defense, police, and very few others should remain not for profit though they desperately need to be run more efficiently.

[manberries]

Dominique, the points you raise are great. While I will argue you all day over the governments intervention in trade, I will fully agree that certain safety regulations, some services, and infrastructure must have government influence. My issue, as a conservative, is government over intervening in things that are not historically required for them to be there. Frankly, both social security and health care has too much government in it. The things they pay for are good in of themselves, but it frankly isn't continuable with the current costs. This is the key to the conservative movement. We would all love for health care to be totally free, it just cannot ever happen. We argue that government should stay out of what it is not needed in for the sake of economic freedom, and that where it must intervene should do so in a fiscally responsible manner.

I do have to thank you for being an intelligent a responsible member of the other side. This thread is too full of children attacking an entire movement despite in an attempt to be the loud minority.

[Dominique]

Bull sheet. im a student pilot and all the towers around here are NOT federal.

While every single ATC tower may not be under control, they do regulate air travel.

[Thugut]

Yes, I do believe education could be much better run by private enterprise.


Education is a Right.
Thus the Government is obligated to offer it freely.
Any well-off bloke that sends his kids to private institutions and doesn't feel like paying taxes for government education can pack his bags and move to another country.

p.s. claiming government-run schools brainwash children is the usual excuse for most cheapskates.

[CG51]

Bull sheet. im a student pilot and all the towers around here are NOT federal.

er, if you are talking about your school, then, yeah, training. All Air Traffic Controlers are under federal admin. That is why they cannot strike. You probably are not old enough to remember Regan canning those that refused to man their post and continued to strike.

[Dominique]

And you failed to see my point. I said I wanted to limit government as much as possible. I did not say I wanted to get rid of all government. All of my examples were about how inefficient the government is. It's one thing to create something, it's another to maintain it.

I agree that many of the services provided by the government could be run more efficiently, and I'm all for it.


Yes, I do believe education could be much better run by private enterprise.
The mail.
The highways.
The airlines.
etc.

I'll give you the Post Office, as it's inefficient as hell, but as it stands how would you propose private companies run highways? And which airline does the federal government run?


Defense, police, and very few others should remain not for profit though they desperately need to be run more efficiently.

And while law enforcement costs a lot of loot, there's only so much you can do to control costs.

[MaverickCowboy]

While every single ATC tower may not be under control, they do regulate air travel.

The final and true decision made by traffic is made by pilot in command jackass.

[MaverickCowboy]

er, if you are talking about your school, then, yeah, training. All Air Traffic Controlers are under federal admin. That is why they cannot strike. You probably are not old enough to remember Regan canning those that refused to man their post and continued to strike.

there are only a handful of federally controlled towers in Montana. They have to abide to regulations and laws, but they are not federal.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

My humble suggestion would be to restrict the government to managing private entities that actually provide services.

If we had a vigilant government, I think that would be possible for almost all services.

[Dominique]

The final and true decision made by traffic is made by pilot in command jackass.

Now I'm a jackass? how silly of me to think the guys running the towers were actually the ones guiding aircraft. And if you've got an issue with me, shoot me a PM, I'll be more than happy to discuss it with you.

[Dominique]

there are only a handful of federally controlled towers in Montana. They have to abide to regulations and laws, but they are not federal.

So I guess the rest of the county is just all f'd up.

[CG51]

So I guess the rest of the county is just all f'd up.

heh, could you imagine if a corporation controlled all the traffic in the skys. O'hare would have two dude in there, working salery, no overtime, 12 on 12 off, to save them money you know. I'm sure public safety would be their utmost priority.

[Dominique]

heh, could you imagine if a corporation controlled all the traffic in the skys. O'hare would have two dude in there, working salery, no overtime, 12 on 12 off, to save them money you know. I'm sure public safety would be their utmost priority.

Well hell son, that's how it's done in Montana. Because we know with the massive amount of air traffic flying into their airports, how busy they are up there. But hey, I'm a jackass, so what the hell do I know. :roll:

[Laworkerbee]

The final and true decision made by traffic is made by pilot in command jackass.

You should probably look into getting your situational awareness calibrated.

[chauncy republicans]

heh, could you imagine if a corporation controlled all the traffic in the skys. O'hare would have two dude in there, working salery, no overtime, 12 on 12 off, to save them money you know. I'm sure public safety would be their utmost priority.
Then who the hell would they get their money from?

[Dominique]

Then who the hell would they get their money from?

Who are you talking about, the airlines, or a private firm running the ATC towers? If it's a private firm running the towers, they'd probably charge a landing fee, for every aircraft that lands, which I personally don't have a problem with. But I do think there should be one standard for the guys running the tower. And where did my best new buddy, and all around pal, Maverick run off to? I've got so much to discuss with him.

[CG51]

Then who the hell would they get their money from?



Air traffic controllers earn relatively high pay and have good benefits. Median annual earnings of air traffic controllers in May 2006 were $117,240. The middle 50 percent earned between $86,860 and $142,210. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $59,410, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $145,600. The average annual salary, excluding overtime earnings, for air traffic controllers in the Federal Government—which employs 90 percent of all controllers—was $122,220 in May 2006.


http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos108.htm#earnings

[chauncy republicans]

Who are you talking about, the airlines, or a private firm running the ATC towers? If it's a private firm running the towers, they'd probably charge a landing fee, for every aircraft that lands, which I personally don't have a problem with. But I do think there should be one standard for the guys running the tower. And where did my best new buddy, and all around pal, Maverick run off to? I've got so much to discuss with him.
I think Mav might have gotten offended in the latest DADT thread, :)
or else he's busy managing all that hectic air traffic over Montana.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Ordie, some of your recent posts are just cracking me up.

Concerning this one, is Mr. Gillenkirk attempting to argue on a national level or was he focusing on local? If it was local, why post it on a website available for the world and not add more to it examining the subtleties between urban and rural needs? If Mr. Gillenkirk was aiming for the national audience then he had better reeducate himself on the subtle cultural, economic and political nuances that differ across the nation.

We are all aware of the differing ratios of government intervention in our lives depending on our level of urbanization and culture.

In the urban extreme Mr. Gillenkirk is absolutely correct, greater skill specialization demands interdependent social, political and economic ties with those being in the form of greater concentrations of hierarchical managerial elite be they private or public. Yes, all these systems come at a greater cost, often unsustainable depending on economic fluctuations; often leading to a more debit based fiscal behavior in individuals and groups to make ends meet.

On the other rural extreme, having wider skill sets, being generalists and more self sufficient, the rural inhabitant has less of a ratio of need for expensive managerial elite controls and manages more of his wealth personally not having to shore up a massive, invasive bureaucracy. This experience leads to many rural's living at or below their means saving wealth for the cyclical economic doldrums.

We all know the US is a mix of people from urban to rural and that one size (philosophy, economics) government does not fit all. The framers of the Constitution knew this and that’s why they built a weak Federal government for the states to bind too. They knew balanced yet decentralized government is the key to national success and our history demonstrates this.

We of the rural extreme do not want or need one size fits all from the Federal government, therefore, we prefer DC represent both urban and rural needs fairly and not with what appears to be the current hard sell urban needs legislation and regulation being crammed down our culture.

There is a middle ground, please abide by it and don’t deepen the rift between our two cultural poles. You urban’s got your gigantic spending spree’s and set the fiat funny money dollar on the edge of the precipice and now the rural’s are asking please, enough.

We are willing to help out our fellow citizen to a point but when you propose more permanent, expensive, and what we consider unnecessary, bureaucracy taking a greater fraction of our income to pay for those we see as fiscally irresponsible, we can’t help but feel resentment. You got more than we could give, please stop, take a breather and wait a bit so we can recover.

We say the urban’s can cool their jets rather than we rural’s be pushed down a notch. To us, your mad dash for our livelihood via the Federal government appears bordering on, and possibly at, theft. Sure your plurality currently has the most seats in the House and Senate but remember the old Roman tradition slaves said to triumphant generals “remember, though art mortal”, and I would also say, “You reap what you sow”.

What comes around goes around and should you push this ransacking of our rural wallets too hard, be ready to accept what we’ll give back in return should we take the seats back.

Yes I know, this tit for tat, swing this way and that, polarized animosity is not a way to run a country. So please, back off and accept responsibility for busting the bank, suffer your economic lumps, learn from your mistakes and not rob us fiscally responsible folk.

[tangosix]

Ah, afraid of the conservative movement are we? Well, your shining president is failing, Polosi is corrupt, and your childish argument points mean you lost the moment you posted.


I'm not afraid of the conservative movement. I am conservative. It's the religious nutjobs who pose as conservatives I'm afraid of. I.e the crazies who thinks the world was created 6000 years ago, and that humans lived next to dinosaurs. Those I'm terrefied of, because they are ****ing mental.
Ans Polosi is no more corrupt than the GOP, in fact they are all pretty much corrupt. They are in the pockets of corporations, and the differences between the democrats and republicans are virtually none.
The only true conservative left is Ron Paul. And the only true democrat left is Ralph Nader.




Sure, Ordie is cleary quite liberal for posting this. However, he isn't a child as he didn't feel the need to incorrectly insult the majority of Americans. My favorite part about these kinds of topics is extreme rarity of a liberal who can actually make an articulated point.

The majority of Americans are not neo conservative.

[Sakop]

I'm not afraid of the conservative movement. I am conservative. It's the religious nutjobs who pose as conservatives I'm afraid of. I.e the crazies who thinks the world was created 6000 years ago, and that humans lived next to dinosaurs. Those I'm terrefied of, because they are ****ing mental.
Ans Polosi is no more corrupt than the GOP, in fact they are all pretty much corrupt. They are in the pockets of corporations, and the differences between the democrats and republicans are virtually none.
The only true conservative left is Ron Paul. And the only true democrat left is Ralph Nader.




The majority of Americans are not neo conservative.

FYI, Ron Paul is a Libertarian not a Conservative. And IMO Nader is a nut job.

[tangosix]

FYI, Ron Paul is a Libertarian not a Conservative. And IMO Nader is a nut job.

Ron Paul is a republican congressman and is the only one with real republican values. Nader is less of a nut than half of the people in the senate.

[Sakop]

Ron Paul is a republican congressman and is the only one with real republican values. Nader is less of a nut than half of the people in the senate.
He is a "Republican" because there are only 2 parties. His view are truly libertarian. Just trust me on this, I’m connected.

[Gat0r]

Oh the joys of government, if only we had a system in which a nobel class of intellectual planners could direct the movment of capital, production, labor and so on in a harmenous smooth manner. I'm sure Obama and his Czars could magically sift through billions of economic transactions daily between individuals and business's and proceed to pass down orders to all of us peons. Wait didn't the Soviet Union try this? Worked out great huh? Manberries you hit the nail on the head, Keynesian economics have wrapped its tenticles around the republicrats. Keynes himself said that his economic theories were best suited for a totalitarian government.

Social Security, Medicare, Medicade, Postal Service, great, effeciently run government programs! The first three have only left us with a bill of around $100 Trillion. Not to worry folks Ben Bernanke can provide a sufficient amount of digital funny money to pay for this, it worked for Zimbabwea!

The founding fathers, most of them were nobel in their intentions to bound a limited government to a constitution and bill of rights, clearly it has failed. We are seeing what representative government or democracy is all about, mob rule, special interest groups, corporatism, massive theft through taxation, empire, the common good instead of volutary cooperation.

Look to New York Cities government interventions into rent and real-estate http://mises.org/story/3757
The Federal governments policy of universal and cheap homeownership created the biggest bust ever in the US.

Leftist rant and rave against monopoly and cartelism yet government regulations are almost soley to blame by increasing costs and barriers of entry. They contradict themselves when they advocate that the government should be the sole monopoly on consumer protection, courts, and so on. Chances are everybody has something in their house that has a UL sticker on the back of it. Underwriters Laboratories is a private firm that test thousands of comsumer products for safety. The government courts are the decision makers in their own case. The Federal Reserve was a government created cartel to control the monetary system.

Conservatives are wasting their time clinging to the montra of limiting government, government cannot be limited, its like a slow growing cancer, power corrupts. The people of Ireland lived in a relatively anarchist/libertarian state for 1000 years. People will say this will never happen, but I'm sure people in Europe never would have thought that the separation of church and state would happen.

The internet is basically the last vestige of the unhindered free market at work, look at the marvels it has created, the ability to transfer information beyond borders, the genious of human cooreporation and ingenuity at work. Now the FCC wants regulatory control of it if certain legislation gains traction, licensing will be the name of the game.