Push to ban minarets in Switzerland a ‘threat’

[Muzungu]

Push to ban minarets in Switzerland a ‘threat’

GENEVA - Switzerland’s biggest Jewish groups said Wednesday that a far-right push to ban the construction of minarets here was a ‘threat’ to religious harmony and hindered the integration of Muslims.

‘The referendum infringes religious freedom, a concept enshrined in the constitution,’ said the Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities and the Platform of Liberal Jews in Switzerland in a statement.
It ‘also poses a threat to peaceful relations between the religions and inhibits the integration endeavours of Muslims in Switzerland,’ they added.
Swiss voters are to decide during a referendum on November 29 whether to ban the construction of minarets in Switzerland, a proposal launched by right-wing groups and backed by the country’s biggest political party, the hard right Swiss People’s Party (SVP).
The two Jewish groups said they ‘take seriously the fears of the population that extremist ideas could be disseminated in Switzerland.’
‘But banning minarets is no solution — it only creates in Muslims in Switzerland a sense of alienation and discrimination,’ they said.
The Swiss government and all the other major political parties are recommending a ‘no’ vote. In a historic move, local Christian, Jewish and Muslim leaders have also joined forces to reject a ban on minarets.
In September, the Roman Catholic community joined in the call urging voters to reject the ban.
Islam is the second largest religion in Switzerland after Christianity with 310,000 followers out of a population of 7.5 million. Four minarets have been built and the construction of a fifth is planned.
http://khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle08.asp?xfile=data/international/2009/October/international_October1936.xml&section=international

[kopz]

just one question..
how many church in arabic country ? 0
So why swiss people must allowed another minaret ?
4 is enough, because after this its gonna be another thing for the muslim community, again and again..

[Ordie]

Al Qaida couldn't pay enough for this headline and publicity.

[Ghost Nappa]

just one question..
how many church in arabic country ? 0



http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9786/picardfacepalmj.jpg

[CMNot]

how many church in arabic country ? 0

You realise there are quite a few million Christians in the Middle East right?

[Ordie]

You realise there are quite a few million Christians in the Middle East right?

He's probably hasn't been to church for a while to realize this.

Thanks to the defense of religious freedom act, we don't have these issues in the US.

[Zarak]

You realise there are quite a few million Christians in the Middle East right?

Christians aren't even allowed to practice in Saudi Arabia.

At any rate, minarets have no place in Switzerland.

[squidO]

I wonder, what is the background if this minarets issue?
Is it political, religious, cultural, or architectural?

[Derbedeu]

^^^ Probably a good mix of all four

[domokun]

I wonder, what is the background if this minarets issue?
Is it political, religious, cultural, or architectural?

Mostly cultural and architectural, Swiss don't wan't minarets there as those won't fit into scenery and they don't want associated noise that comes with those. They aren't banning mosques, they just want those to be harmony with surroundings. Pretty much same as churches in most arab countries, allowed as long as they bother majority of population.

[Ulytau]

.
how many church in arabic country ? 0


Google is your friend,you can be totally sure about that. :|

about Minaret in Switzerland its their own decision too maybe a referandum etc. will be good idea

[Clockwinder]

It's a ploy! Minarets, cell towers, giant crosses, transmission pylons, wind turbines - all are blights on the landscape and have opponents and proponents. Look at it for what it is. A small minority want something, the majority don't, the minority cries foul and use every possible expletive to get their way.

[xav]

about Minaret in Switzerland its their own decision too maybe a referandum etc. will be good idea

That is actually how they gonna do it, thru a referendum

The power of democracy (not the will of the "righteous" but the will of the most numerous should i remind?)
If they wanna to vote that ban, let them do it.

[muck]

The unconditional will of some European Muslims to live out their faith in violation of their host communities' customs and sometimes even laws is much more of a threat to successful integration. In fact it says more about this group's unwillingness to integrate and be a productive member of their host society when they demand minarets for spite.

It's not like one would be restricted in their freedom of religion if they had to pray in a mosque without a frigging minaret.

[xav]

Here is the poster for those supporting to vote "STOP JA!"
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83744&stc=1&d=1256855667

The referendum (to happen in 2010) will also let the Swiss people say yes or no to purchasing new fighters (where Rafale, EF and Grippen are contenders)

A very democratic country indeed

[Zarak]

It's not like one would be restricted in their freedom of religion if they had to pray in a mosque without a frigging minaret.

Good point. Its not as though minarets are a part of Islam, they're just an architectural feature, like stained glass in cathedrals.

[CMNot]

The referendum (to happen in 2010) will also let the Swiss people say yes or no to purchasing new fighters (where Rafale, EF and Grippen are contenders)

A very democratic country indeed

Respect.321321

[BorisA]

And if they would decide by vote to hang everybody who is green, purple, satanist etc. bla bla it would be also ok since democratically legitimated.

What some people do forget here is that there is a constitution in the swiss which includes various freedoms. And i bet any sane court will put the religious freedom of the indiviual ahead of the esthetic feelings of others.

What i can understand is that the builders of the mosque should try to be as cooperative as possible. And of course nobody should scream from the minaretes...

Ps it makes me wonder sometimes how some people are proud of their democratic system, legal framework based on human rights etc. and then when it comes to the praxis are quite the opposite...

[Zarak]

What some people do forget here is that there is a constitution in the swiss which includes various freedoms. And i bet any sane court will put the religious freedom of the indiviual ahead of the esthetic feelings of others.

Minarets have nothing to do with religious freedom and the Swiss Constitution, presumably, doesn't include the right to architectural freedom.

[muck]

And if they would decide by vote to hang everybody who is green, purple, satanist etc. bla bla it would be also ok since democratically legitimated.

What some people do forget here is that there is a constitution in the swiss which includes various freedoms. And i bet any sane court will put the religious freedom of the indiviual ahead of the esthetic feelings of others.

What i can understand is that the builders of the mosque should try to be as cooperative as possible. And of course nobody should scream from the minaretes...

Ps it makes me wonder sometimes how some people are proud of their democratic system, legal framework based on human rights etc. and then when it comes to the praxis are quite the opposite...You need to exaggerate to prove your point? That's poor. A push to actually abolish democracy by democratic means is undemocratic and thus not legitimatable.

A minaret is just a frigging tower which was invented by Arabic architects in the 8th century so the Muezzin would be better heard in the crowded streets and markets of medieval Muslim cities.
With speakers available nowadays, they do not serve a purpose anymore and are only there for decoration. The Quran does not mention devices like minarets at all.

They've nothing got to do with religion. It is NO restriction to anybody's rights if their mosque has no effing minaret.

[manberries]

I cannot say I am well read when it comes to the constitution of Switzerland or its laws. However, if the land these minarets are being built on is private, I don't see how it is the Swiss Government's job or authority to restrict them. On the other hand, if this land is given to them for building purposes (as some religious buildings in the States are), or the government pays a significant cost of its construction, then it is entirely within their authority to restrict them.

[Macs.]

I cannot say I am well read when it comes to the constitution of Switzerland or its laws. However, if the land these minarets are being built on is private, I don't see how it is the Swiss Government's job or authority to restrict them.

In Switzerland (and in Germany aswell) you can't just build whatever you want, you need to get the permission of the local community/city.

[Zarak]

In Switzerland (and in Germany aswell) you can't just build whatever you want, you need to get the permission of the local community/city.

That's how it is everywhere in the developed world. A lot of municipalities have restrictions on architectural features, height of buildings, etc. so that new constructions conform to existing aesthetics, outside of the usual permits and such required.

[lotsoffreetime]

I don't see any benefit these Muslim minorities will get by pissing off their hosts. They should see the larger picture, ie. what benefit is a friggin minaret if you cause displeasure among your neighbours? Pleasing your neighbours is very important in becoming a good Muslim, as been said in a few hadith..

[muck]

[QUOTE=lotsoffreetime;4519080]I don't see any benefit these Muslim minorities will get by pissing off their hosts. They should see the larger picture, ie. what benefit is a friggin minaret if you cause displeasure among your neighbours? /QUOTE]Good point.

[LRPV]

You realise there are quite a few million Christians in the Middle East right?

Try building a Christian church in Egypt...

[Elbs]

When in Rome...

[BorisA]

You need to exaggerate to prove your point? That's poor. A push to actually abolish democracy by democratic means is undemocratic and thus not legitimatable.


No whats really poor is to put the rule of the mob ahead of the constitution and praise it as the finest state of democracy. And a push to abolish fundamental rights by "democratic" means is undemocratic...



In Switzerland (and in Germany aswell) you can't just build whatever you want, you need to get the permission of the local community/city. These regulations are primary there to serve (infrastructual) security and enviromental protection. The case with the aspect of esthetics is less important and this specially in connection with the personal freedoms.



They've nothing got to do with religion. It is NO restriction to anybody's rights if their mosque has no effing minaret. You are right. Let the muslims follow their pegan religion in the backalleys where they should be. And what are 1300 (which i doubt) years to establish traditions?

Ps lucky me that nobody read my passage about compromises and cooperation...

[Zarak]

You are right. Let the muslims follow their pegan religion in the backalleys where they should be. And what are 1300 (which i doubt) years to establish traditions?

A minaret is not a place of worship. Its a little tower attached to the place of worship which serves no purpose in the modern world and is not actually part of Islam.

Also, I think you may be mentally retarded.

[Elbs]

You need to exaggerate to prove your point? That's poor. A push to actually abolish democracy by democratic means is undemocratic and thus not legitimatable.


No whats really poor is to put the rule of the mob ahead of the constitution and praise it as the finest state of democracy. And a push to abolish fundamental rights by "democratic" means is undemocratic...




These regulations are primary there to serve (infrastructual) security and enviromental protection. The case with the aspect of esthetics is less important and this specially in connection with the personal freedoms.




You are right. Let the muslims follow their pegan religion in the backalleys where they should be. And what are 1300 (which i doubt) years to establish traditions?

Ps lucky me that nobody read my passage about compromises and cooperation...

How exactly is having a mosque with a minaret a "fundamental right"?

AFAIK you can be a good Muslim and attend services in an office building. A few of my Muslim friends do so, and are as devout as any as I have ver met.

You mentioned 1300 years of traditions. Fine. What about the years of Swiss tradition? Because a new group moves in they have to make way for them or bend their laws to suit the fancies of a religious group?

[BorisA]

A minaret is not a place of worship. Its a little tower attached to the place of worship which serves no purpose in the modern world and is not actually part of Islam.
Also, I think you may be mentally retarded. 1. Reported
2. Neither do the church towers.


AFAIK you can be a good Muslim and attend services in an office building. A few of my Muslim friends do so, and are as devout as any as I have ver met. Of course but as well christian can do it. But the point is if the circumstances (like resources, estate, legal clarity etc.) are given why not permit it ?




You mentioned 1300 years of traditions. Fine. What about the years of Swiss tradition? Because a new group moves in they have to make way for them or bend their laws to suit the fancies of a religious group?

Firstly the laws do not need to be changed because there are already, in this particular case, in favour of the mosque supporters. And secondly i do not see how a building can alter the traditions of the swiss? It can be (doesnt need to be) esthetical different but this interference is tiny in my eyes.

[18SASS]

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9786/picardfacepalmj.jpg

i live in arabia and I have to say that there are a few churches but they have to be unmarked. They look like schools. Nice double standards where we westerners let muslims come to europe/USA and build mosques everywhere, buy up our land when we cannot even purchase land openly and freely in most of Arabia. Then wearing their local dress to further segregate themselves. In most of Arabia it is illegal for Europeans to wear local garb. Imagine that?

[Xithos]

I don't see why building a minaret is a big deal. They don't pose any danger to society what so ever. Hell, I think that people should just let others practice their religion how they please and build a minaret if they want.

[wigon]

Christians aren't even allowed to practice in Saudi Arabia.

At any rate, minarets have no place in Switzerland.



And mosques aren't allowed in Vatican City. Your point?

Wigon

[wigon]

i live in arabia and I have to say that there are a few churches but they have to be unmarked. They look like schools. Nice double standards where we westerners let muslims come to europe/USA and build mosques everywhere, buy up our land when we cannot even purchase land openly and freely in most of Arabia. Then wearing their local dress to further segregate themselves. In most of Arabia it is illegal for Europeans to wear local garb. Imagine that?


It really is a shame. I used to live in Saudi Arabia (Riyadh) in the USMTM compound back in the 80's. I used to go to secret churches back then and we had an open one on the compound as well. But I think it sucks that Saudi Arabia is so closed as it really is a beautiful country. If they were to open up to the world more, I think they'd find that the world would be very interested in the amazing beauty of that country. When I was there I was lucky enough to visit Roman ruins that probably no Archeaologist had ever seen and to have seen incredible tribal marriage ceremonies, dances, and other traditions that few outsiders have seen. I hung out with bedhoins, saw Falcon hunts, camel races, and really saw the most beautiful aspects of the people there. It pisses me off that stupid Salafi extremists run things now because I know Saudis are much more then that and have lots of highly educated young people now who are trying to push their nation into the future rather then the past.

Wigon

[Ordie]

Firstly the laws do not need to be changed because there are already, in this particular case, in favour of the mosque supporters. And secondly i do not see how a building can alter the traditions of the swiss? It can be (doesnt need to be) esthetical different but this interference is tiny in my eyes.

If the Swiss allowed John Calvin (the founder of Pyresbiterianism) to physically alter a Roman Catholic Church, there is no reason for the Muslim community to do the same.

[derkrieger]

I don't get this "but in Saudi Arabia this and that does not bla bla" card, you guys just too readily produce, when the subject is about a minaret in Switzerland.
Hell S Arabia is completely different in the way they interpret the religion called Islam. They stick to the wahhabi school, which is a very antidemocratic, illogical and hypocritical understanding of Islam and its teachings.
SADLY enough, this bloody regime is being supported by the democracy and peace-loving states of the west, USA being the primary example, whereas its anti-democratic usages and polices are being shown as pretexts to curb the legitimate needs of Moslem Swiss citizens.
I don't think minaret has to be THAT different from the customary architecture of the locality concerned, if they want to stick to a minaret plan, which may look in harmony with the surroundings, will you guys support the construction?
or will you still be against it?
In Berlin, in Stadtmitte, there is a very beautiful synagogue BTW, whick looks awesome and still different form the surrounding buildings. That place of worship was enrichening that specific street (namely Oranienburgerstrasse, where my favourite bar "Aufsturz" was), and was not a thorn in the eye, as far as I am concerned.
EDIT: wiki has zhe pic,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oranienburger_Stra%C3%9Fe

[toki]

These regulations are primary there to serve (infrastructual) security and enviromental protection. The case with the aspect of esthetics is less important and this specially in connection with the personal freedoms.


In my city for example there are light regulations. Many new office type buildings used different kind of light effects, it led to a regulation, simply because of aesthetics. You can't build a new office building and make every floor shine blue, red, green, yellow without having permit to do so.
The city decided for a few colours to not ruin the cityscape.
We have many mosques, but no minaret. They're all normal low key buildings.


i live in arabia and I have to say that there are a few churches but they have to be unmarked. They look like schools. nice double standards where we westerners let muslims come to europe/USA and build mosques everywhere, buy up our land when we cannot even purchase land openly and freely in most of Arabia. Then wearing their local dress to further segregate themselves. In most of Arabia it is illegal for Europeans to wear local garb. Imagine that?

If the west adapts to Saudi standards, we're all doomed.
You should not compare yourself to fundamentalists.

[CMNot]

If the west adapts to Saudi standards, we're all doomed

Completely agreed.

[quinsen]

And mosques aren't allowed in Vatican City. Your point?

Wigon
There are no churches in Mecca allowed. Even non-muslims are banned from the city. Imagine the worldwide outrage they'd do this with muslims from Vatican City...

Just to complete this "bla here" and "bla there" discussion. :roll:

[Ghost Nappa]

i live in arabia and I have to say that there are a few churches but they have to be unmarked. They look like schools. Nice double standards where we westerners let muslims come to europe/USA and build mosques everywhere, buy up our land when we cannot even purchase land openly and freely in most of Arabia. Then wearing their local dress to further segregate themselves. In most of Arabia it is illegal for Europeans to wear local garb. Imagine that?

Yeah, and the avarage Shopping Mall in KSA look like any Mall in European city p-)

But cheer up Arabia isn't the whole arabic world, you should try Jordan, Syria, Egypt or Palestine territories for that mather.

And bohooo about issue, well consider most European countries are Christian, therefore the ratio of Church will always exceed Mosque

In the Arabic world, 90-95 % are muslim, therefore the ratio of Mosque is higher the Church ..



Try building a Christian church in Egypt...

Don't they need permisson from authority to buildt ? In Israel do they allow church and mosque pop-up everywhere ? Illegal building ?

[futurepilot2004]

Try building a Christian church in Egypt...

There are plenty of Christian churches in Egypt including ones built quite recently.

[Derbedeu]

http://www.minarett-attack.ch/



p-)

[Isaac Kasabian]

They should do it like in Judaism.


There is no set blueprint for synagogues and the architectural shapes as well as interior designs of synagogues vary greatly. In fact, the influence from other local religious buildings can often be seen in synagogue arches, domes and towers.

Historically, synagogues were built in the prevailing architectural style of their time and place. Thus, the synagogue in Kaifeng, China looked very like Chinese temples of that region and era, with its outer wall and open garden in which several buildings were arranged. The styles of the earliest synagogues resembled the temples of other sects of the eastern Roman Empire. The surviving synagogues of medieval Spain are embellished with mudéjar plasterwork. The surviving medieval synagogues in Budapest and Prague are typical Gothic structures.

The emancipation of Jews in European countries not only enabled Jews to enter fields of enterprise from which they were formerly barred, but gave them the right to build synagogues without needing special permissions, synagogue architecture blossomed. Large Jewish communities wished to show not only their wealth but also their newly acquired status as citizens by constructing magnificent synagogues. These were built across Europe and in the United States in all of the historicist or revival styles then in fashion. Thus there were Neoclassical, Neo-Byzantine, Romanesque Revival Moorish Revival, Gothic Revival, and Greek Revival. There are Egyptian Revival synagogues and even one Mayan Revival synagogue. In the nineteenth and early twentieth century heyday of historicist architecture, however, most historicist synagogues, even the most magnificent ones, did not attempt a pure style, or even any particular style, and are best described as eclectic.

In the post-war era, synagogue architecture abandoned historicist styles for modernism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synagogue

[squidO]

While the towers of this type have some practical significance(christian bell towers, islamic minarets), they are mainly intended to emphasize the dominance of this particular religion. So the issue turns to be political.
Thus, supporters of the ban, quotе the Turkish Prime Minister Erdoğan "Mosques are our barracks, domes our helmets, minarets our bayonets, believers our soldiers. This holy army guards my religion."

[Ordie]

I find it ironic that non church going Europeans would be threatened by a tower.

If the call to prayers is an issue, perhaps the Mosque should brodcast it over a specific radio channel or over the Internet.

I recall unique centuries old unique European mosques with simple minarets in Bosnia and next to the Cathedral in Parlermo. The Norman king Rodger II hired Arab craftsmen to decorate the Cathedral and bulit a small mosque next door.

[toki]

I find it ironic that non church going Europeans would be threatened by a tower.


Europe and especially switzerland doesn't have the vast space, spread out communities and skyscrapered centres. If the highest building in your city is a minarett i'd wouldn't be amused either.

Mosques OK, but adapt to the local architecture. Even office buildings often face fierce opsoition depending where you live, because they destroy the typical look. Our city had a referendum about the future of a central city square and its building plans - privatizing or not.

[hatchet_harry]

a week ago the trends regarding this proposal were published. 53% no, 34% yes, rest undecided. the majority in switzerland doesn't want "minarets are forbidden" written in our constitution. it's almost certain, this referendum will fail at the ballots, everyone relax, no reason for an outrage in the islamic world.

what's interesting about the whole thing is that the christian churches (and jewish organisations) strongly oppose this proposal. religion lost it's importance but the churches still hold many privileges (taxes for example).

direct democracy is a nice concept and as a citizen i appreciate it that my oppinion counts. on the other hand there are a ****load of rubbish proposals, some of them never make it to the ballots others do. right now there is a proposal in zurich to ban all buildings exceeding 40meters in height... wtf.

the party behind this "minarettinitiative", the conservative svp, has started numerous referenda, the subjects are always related to foreigners, cultural issues. the posters always were comparable and often considered poor in taste. some were "exported" and later sparked controversies in germany (npd). none of these referenda was succesful, but obviously they serve a purpose.

[Derbedeu]

Europe and especially switzerland doesn't have the vast space, spread out communities and skyscrapered centres. If the highest building in your city is a minarett i'd wouldn't be amused either.

Mosques OK, but adapt to the local architecture. Even office buildings often face fierce opsoition depending where you live, because they destroy the typical look. Our city had a referendum about the future of a central city square and its building plans - privatizing or not.

Very well said.

When I'm walking in Europe's old towns, I don't want to see a mosque or a gaudy looking modern office building. I want to see architecture from the Classical period, Middle Ages, the Renaissance, neoclassical, the Romantic period, art deco, etc. Europe's culture is unique, and I for one would like to see it preserved. And it goes both ways. A huge church with some tremendous spire in Damascus would be just as incongruous as a minaret in Switzerland.

It is one reason I admire France for much, for placing Le Defense outside of old Paris and preserving it's skyline. It's also why I'm pissed at Gazprom for going ahead with their tower in St. Petersburg. I also might want to add that as you mentioned, many Europeans today are secular. As an agnostic, any type of organized religion going out and building grand new places of worship in ostentatious fashion always pisses me off as that is money that can be better spent on education or healthcare, etc.

Just my two cents.

[xav]

for those who missed it
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83744&stc=1&d=1256855667

[Ordie]

for those who missed it
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83744&stc=1&d=1256855667

This is the ideal recruiting poster for Al Qaida.

As a Californian, direct democracy does not work in policymaking.

Religion matters. If you choose to ignore it's relevance, you choose to ignore humanity at large.

If we ( the West) believe in religious freedom, we must allow the freedom of worship in the houses of worship of their own design. To prevent this from happening, will only radicalize the moderates.

This is why we in the USA have not had any major conflict over issues of Mosques and houses of worship.

[hidayatnw]

Freedom for all
the enemy of civilized world is radicalism
not Muslims, Jew or Christians
ban of minaret will only give fuel for radicalism within Muslim society.