Question about small arms fire and apache gunships

[Nichonl]

Quick question for you guys.

How venerable are apaches to small arms fire such as .45 caliber shots.

Would the round penetrate the armor?

[shrek]

Pends on where you hit it bro. Hit the right spot and it could fly to pieces and fall to the ground, others, no damage. The engine is well protectd. The blades can be delicate in the right circumstances, the tail rotar especially. I used to work for the company that makes the fuels cells used on all military aircraft, they're leak proof (unless exposed to a catastrophic crash of course). they consist of three layers of rubber with a self-expanding liquid rubber material between the layers. When a bullet penetrates, the fuel and air hits the liquid rubber which quickly expands to multiples of it's original size thus plugging the hole!

[Mark Sman]

Helicopters are a heresy against physics. I'm suprised one hasn't fallen on me yet.

[Uncle Sam]

The Apache is heavily armored on all sides. Some areas are also surrounded by Kevlar soft armor for extra protection. The cockpit is protected by layers of reinforced armor and bulletproof glass. According to Boeing, every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds, and vital engine and rotor components can withstand 23-mm fire.

The area surrounding the cockpit is designed to deform during collision, but the cockpit canopy is extremely rigid. In a crash, the deformation areas work like the crumple zones in a car -- they absorb a lot of the impact force, so the collision isn't as hard on the crew. The pilot and gunner seats are outfitted with heavy Kevlar armor, which also absorbs the force of impact. With these advanced systems, the crew has an excellent chance of surviving a crash.

[aartamen]

I would not recommend shooting hand pistol caliber rounds at an AH-64. May be hasardous to your health. It would definitely not penetrate any armored areas. Nominally they are protected against small arms everywhere.

[Herrmannek]

The Apache is heavily armored on all sides. Some areas are also surrounded by Kevlar soft armor for extra protection. The cockpit is protected by layers of reinforced armor and bulletproof glass. According to Boeing, every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds, and vital engine and rotor components can withstand 23-mm fire.

The area surrounding the cockpit is designed to deform during collision, but the cockpit canopy is extremely rigid. In a crash, the deformation areas work like the crumple zones in a car -- they absorb a lot of the impact force, so the collision isn't as hard on the crew. The pilot and gunner seats are outfitted with heavy Kevlar armor, which also absorbs the force of impact. With these advanced systems, the crew has an excellent chance of surviving a crash.

They didn't forget about nothing, but ejection seats*....



it is possible to eject from choper but you need to blow off blades first.....

[Uncle Sam]

The Apache is heavily armored on all sides. Some areas are also surrounded by Kevlar soft armor for extra protection. The cockpit is protected by layers of reinforced armor and bulletproof glass. According to Boeing, every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds, and vital engine and rotor components can withstand 23-mm fire.

The area surrounding the cockpit is designed to deform during collision, but the cockpit canopy is extremely rigid. In a crash, the deformation areas work like the crumple zones in a car -- they absorb a lot of the impact force, so the collision isn't as hard on the crew. The pilot and gunner seats are outfitted with heavy Kevlar armor, which also absorbs the force of impact. With these advanced systems, the crew has an excellent chance of surviving a crash.

They didn't forget about nothing, but ejection seats*....



it is possible to eject from choper but you need to blow off blades first.....

I read somewhere, that it is actually safer for the crew to stay in the chopper rather than ejecting from it...I will find the story...Hopefully.

There is a Russian Helo that has ejection seats, though, the MIL Mi-28A 'Havoc'

[Herrmannek]

The Apache is heavily armored on all sides. Some areas are also surrounded by Kevlar soft armor for extra protection. The cockpit is protected by layers of reinforced armor and bulletproof glass. According to Boeing, every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds, and vital engine and rotor components can withstand 23-mm fire.

The area surrounding the cockpit is designed to deform during collision, but the cockpit canopy is extremely rigid. In a crash, the deformation areas work like the crumple zones in a car -- they absorb a lot of the impact force, so the collision isn't as hard on the crew. The pilot and gunner seats are outfitted with heavy Kevlar armor, which also absorbs the force of impact. With these advanced systems, the crew has an excellent chance of surviving a crash.

They didn't forget about nothing, but ejection seats*....



it is possible to eject from choper but you need to blow off blades first.....

I read somewhere, that it is actually safer for the crew to stay in the chopper rather than ejecting from it...I will find the story...Hopefully.

But anyone would like to have options... esspecialy many things can happen on the way down...

[Uncle Sam]

Here's another interesting fact...

The Ka-50. A unique Ka-50 feature is the ejection seat - the main rotors are jettisoned before the pilot's seat is ejected. More than 35% of the Ka-50's structure by weight is of composites.

[sgt.pepper]

0.45 will not penetrate apache armour but 7.62mm nato and 0.5 will.During last campaigne one or two choppers were shot down by small arms fire maybe by long burst of ak-47/74 [many of them firing simultaneously] Uncle sam how do you know that apach can withstand direct hit of 23mm projectile?,man you are dreaming as far as i know only ka-50 has powerful armour and this armour can stop direct hit of 23 mm projectile.

[usa320]

no pepper. He is right...

Most of the aircraft can withstand up to 12.7mm... and the vital parts (engine, rotors) can withstand up to 23mm...

[mattnwnc03]

I would not recommend shooting hand pistol caliber rounds at an AH-64. May be hasardous to your health. It would definitely not penetrate any armored areas. Nominally they are protected against small arms everywhere. yeah we had a knucklehead point an m60 machine gun at one of them pulling guard for us on the road to nasiriyah in the first gulf war and he opened up with his chain gun along side of the road.thats how touchy those guys are.

[Pooga]

Anybody a past/present helo driver?

[Merik]

Anybody a past/present helo driver?

My old man was. ;)

[sgt.pepper]

usa320 i'm not sure just look at those two choppers which were shot down in the iraq,that occured by small arms fire.Man do you realize how powerful 23mm is and especially AP version, no chopper can withstand bursts of 23mm projectiles maybe single hit in the vital parts.

[Uncle Chô]

no pepper. He is right...Most of the aircraft can withstand up to 12.7mm... and the vital parts (engine, rotors) can withstand up to 23mm...
That is from the Hugues / MDH advertising brochure! To make such an assesment, they fire on shot one a test blade ie. And the same goes for the different components (engine fairing / canopy etc). But it is from a certain distance and from a certain angle (they never tell you the exact figures) that may correspond to what could happen in 5 % of the operational case... :roll:

Like someone raised the point, helos are not design to fly by nature (like an airplane does) and remain very fragile machines -armored or not.

PS : wasn't the Titanic means to be unsinkable and advertised as so ? ;)

[sgt.pepper]

good post Uncle cho

[sergey31]

[b]According to Boeing, every part of the helicopter can survive 12.7-mm rounds, and vital engine and rotor components can withstand 23-mm fire.



BS.... EVERY PART?
Only some areas, and that is it..... Good burst of 7.62x54R will bring it down faster then AH 1, Cobra.
Way under-protected against small arms fire. That's why they are used 90% at night with navigation lights off. Just watch the interviews with those pilots from Iraq and see on how confident are they.

[gbos]

I am not so sure that those apaches were shot down by small arms fire. I read that in many cases the hellos make it back with significant damage from multiple hits from a variety of weapons. Overall I think they performed rather well. Don’t forget that apaches were designed with the main mission of engage advancing armored vehicles columns and not hunting dig in defenders. In the former case the hello crew will spot the opponent first in 99 out of 100 cases and engage it popping up from a ridge with minimum danger of getting return fire. I hate to say it (as an ex tank-er) but in this case I would put all my money on the apache. :oops:

[sgt.pepper]

sergey31 are they talking about multiple hits by those projectiles? we both know that concentrated small arms fire will shot 'em down

[sergey31]

Most of you know but would not admit of knowing.... Apache helos are just not cut-out for close air support or daylight infatry support roles.

U.S army learned the hard way in Iraq about their so much over-rated AH64.... Not to mention EXESIVE maintanace and pre-sceduled engine overhaul.
Cobra helos did much better.

[sgt.pepper]

gbos your football team is great! and now we should return to our topic: many of the land combat vehicle like apc's and older models of ifv's are not designed and protected against modern aa guns like 25mm bushmaster and russian 23mm projectile. You mentioned in your post that primary role of apache helos is to confrontate armoured forces but you have forgotten one thing the attack and flight tactics and of course stand off weapon will protect this chopper from being hit by enemy AA guns.

[Uncle Sam]

0.45 will not penetrate apache armour but 7.62mm nato and 0.5 will.During last campaigne one or two choppers were shot down by small arms fire maybe by long burst of ak-47/74 [many of them firing simultaneously] Uncle sam how do you know that apach can withstand direct hit of 23mm projectile?,man you are dreaming as far as i know only ka-50 has powerful armour and this armour can stop direct hit of 23 mm projectile.

I know it has been discussed, but...I found the info directly from Boeing.

[sgt.pepper]

hmmm. ... don't believe them

[gbos]

gbos your football team is great! and now we should return to our topic: many of the land combat vehicle like apc's and older models of ifv's are not designed and protected against modern aa guns like 25mm bushmaster and russian 23mm projectile. You mentioned in your post that primary role of apache helos is to confrontate armoured forces but you have forgotten one thing the attack and flight tactics and of course stand off weapon will protect this chopper from being hit by enemy AA guns.

Indeed. The helicopter is not designed to take 23mm fire. It’s designed to avoid this fire using standoff weapons and limited exposure. You don’t even have to designate your target all the way just the last seconds before hellfire’s impact.

@Sergei 31: Apache is not an overrated weapon. The first mission of DesertStorm-1 (engagement of EW sites) was carried out by apaches. And back then all Iraqi AA capabilities and Iraqi air force was operational. In fact my opinion is the AH-64 is more ‘battle proven’ than say the Abrams because it is used (often unconventionally) in an environment that poses all the threats against a hello.

@sgt.pepper: Thanks! Unfortunately I didn’t put any money on them. :(

[sgt.pepper]

but our basketball team will beat you @gbos you are right hellfires could be programed to fly ballistic like trajectory untill it's seeker will spot laser emision,but radar guided hellfires are more cool

[LordHalbert]

Interesting read about the Apache's performance in Iraq:

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView?file=Hackworth_043003.htm

[Midav]

It's how you use the helicopter. If you send the helicopters by themselves over a hostile city and they open with everything they have, what does one honestly expect?

I personally am amazed that not more were downed and an attest to the bird and an even greater attest to the pilots flying those birds.

This is akin to the charge of Russian armor into Grozny during the first Chechen war. It had no support and was decimated.

[Pooga]

Most of you know but would not admit of knowing.... Apache helos are just not cut-out for close air support or daylight infatry support roles.
Say what? Of course they are! It's just kinda tough when the enemy is below you firing RPGs at you! That's why it's important not to get ambushed and shoot first. I'm sure the armor could take AK bullets, but flak? No way. I find it hard to believe that the tailrotor can take abuse from a 23mm shell. And what ammo type was the Apache tested with? Slugs or incendiary (do they have different type for large rounds like that?)?


U.S army learned the hard way in Iraq about their so much over-rated AH64.... Not to mention EXESIVE maintanace and pre-sceduled engine overhaul.
Cobra helos did much better.

The Cobras were more successful than the Apaches because the Army throws 30 helos at one time, all bunched up, like in Nasiriyah. Remember, the helos were soon stuck in a super-hellish ambush, but only one was forced down (not destroyed…I'm thinking a hydraulic or oil leak, or a messed up tailrotor). All the rest had major damage, but that's repairable. The Marines tactics are different, as they only fly in two-ship formations, so the whole entire force is much more versatile and able to react to changing situations, whereas Apaches are all concentrated in one area.

[Operation Ivy]

no pepper. He is right...Most of the aircraft can withstand up to 12.7mm... and the vital parts (engine, rotors) can withstand up to 23mm...
That is from the Hugues / MDH advertising brochure! To make such an assesment, they fire on shot one a test blade ie. And the same goes for the different components (engine fairing / canopy etc). But it is from a certain distance and from a certain angle (they never tell you the exact figures) that may correspond to what could happen in 5 % of the operational case... :roll:

Like someone raised the point, helos are not design to fly by nature (like an airplane does) and remain very fragile machines -armored or not.

PS : wasn't the Titanic means to be unsinkable and advertised as so ? ;)

pickin on usa320 again i see :D

[sergey31]

"The Marines tactics are different, as they only fly in two-ship formations, so the whole entire force is much more versatile and able to react to changing situations, whereas Apaches are all concentrated in one area."



You got to kidding, right?

They ALL DID the same job and (support troop movement and advancement).
Cobra is smaller (less target area), lighter, faster on turns AND DOES NOT have so much sensitive equipment under-protected.
Army fights same close and hard battles as marines and they need CLOSE AIR support just as much as Marines do, their Apache is not suited for this VERY role.
Same mission CLOSE AIR support. That is my whole point.
Apache is very easy to bring down even AK47 at close range can do that job.

All AH64 fans out there, Wake up from your in-love fantasy with Apache and just realize that ALL it is Failed, over-rated, over-priced barely flying piece of junk....

[Sayeret]

You got to kidding, right?

They ALL DID the same job and (support troop movement and advancement).
Cobra is smaller (less target area), lighter, faster on turns AND DOES NOT have so much sensitive equipment under-protected.
Army fights same close and hard battles as marines and they need CLOSE AIR support just as much as Marines do, their Apache is not suited for this VERY role.
Same mission CLOSE AIR support. That is my whole point.
Apache is very easy to bring down even AK47 at close range can do that job.

All AH64 fans out there, Wake up from your in-love fantasy with Apache and just realize that ALL it is Failed, over-rated, over-priced barely flying piece of junk....

sergey31 the AH-64 Apache is a great helicopter. I'm not sure why you think its such a piece of junk. The Americans didn't use Apaches correctly thats all. They didn't even really do that bad compared to other wars. The Israelis use Apaches and haven't lost one to the Palestinians even though they have many of the same weapons as the Iraqis because they are using better tactics with them. Same with the US Marines they are using their Cobras differently and that is why they have only lost one. It mostly has to do with tactics. For example the soviets lost hundreds of helicopters in Afghanistan, does that mean they are bad? No, all it means is the tactics used weren't effective.

[Pooga]

Cobra is smaller (less target area), lighter, faster on turns
The Apache and the Cobra actually have the same dimensions. Ok, the Apache is bulkier looking, I suppose. They are more or less the same weight (Cobra: 14,750 Apache: 16,027 pounds), only differing by a ton. The Apache compensates by having a larger engine. The Apache is faster by only half a dozen knots. Ok, I'll give you the "Cobra is more nimble" thing, as they have the same rotor diameter. I'd like to see the surface area on the rotors though.


Army fights same close and hard battles as marines and they need CLOSE AIR support just as much as Marines do, their Apache is not suited for this VERY role.
The Apache is as suited for CAS as Cobra.


Apache is very easy to bring down even AK47 at close range can do that job.
Yeah, I bet. ;)


All AH64 fans out there, Wake up from your in-love fantasy with Apache and just realize that ALL it is Failed, over-rated, over-priced barely flying piece of junk....
I actually like the Super Cobra a whole lot better. Apache over-priced? Lots of money for a good helo. If you think the Apache is a failed helo…oh boy… ;)

[Midav]

As I already stated, it's how you use the aircraft.

Imagine 32 Cobra helo's had flown over an enemy city.....

[sgt.pepper]

great post sayeret

[sergey31]

The Israelis use Apaches and haven't lost one to the Palestinians

The Israel army does not fly their Apaches hellos in full close support roles like IT IS NEEDED FOR CLOSE SUPPORT.
Israel army does not engage in close and fierce fights where fully armored hello is needed..... All they do is hover several miles above the city and fire one or two hellfire missiles and return back to base. That is not close support mission and not even a war mission at that.
Most of the Russian Hind losses resulted from stinger missiles hits, what most people don't realize is that there were even more Hinds that returned back to base after being hit by a stinger.
There was one instance where two (2) Hind D's spotted several afghan suv's, gave chase and found themselves in a cross-fire ambush by 23mm AAA installation. Both Helicopters return to base, one was badly damaged and made emergency landing. What is interesting is that it managed to return to base with rear tail rotor control link destroyed.......
.... I do believe that if Apache was hit close range by so many rounds of 23mm cannon fire, it would crash right on top of those shooting guns.[/b]

[sgt.pepper]

hind is so huge that he could withstand direct hit of tank projectile.

[Sayeret]

The Israel army does not fly their Apaches hellos in full close support roles like IT IS NEEDED FOR CLOSE SUPPORT.
Israel army does not engage in close and fierce fights where fully armored hello is needed..... All they do is hover several miles above the city and fire one or two hellfire missiles and return back to base. That is not close support mission and not even a war mission at that.
Most of the Russian Hind losses resulted from stinger missiles hits, what most people don't realize is that there were even more Hinds that returned back to base after being hit by a stinger.
There was one instance where two (2) Hind D's spotted several afghan suv's, gave chase and found themselves in a cross-fire ambush by 23mm AAA installation. Both Helicopters return to base, one was badly damaged and made emergency landing. What is interesting is that it managed to return to base with rear tail rotor control link destroyed.......
.... I do believe that if Apache was hit close range by so many rounds of 23mm cannon fire, it would crash right on top of those shooting guns

Sergey31 no one is saying that the Mi 24 Hind is a bad helicopter. The Soviets used bad tactics in Afghanistan and as result lost a lot of Hinds. Its important to recognize that tactics are often most more important than technology.

The Israelis are using their Apaches for more then just targetted strikes. Often when they go into Palestinian cities Apaches will provide support for the ground forces. Even though the Iraqi and Palestinian weaposn aern't the same for the most part they are very similar.

You mentioned that most of the Mi 24 Hinds hit by stingers were able to return back to base, but you still can't rely on the fact the Mi 24 is heavily armored alone.

[sergey31]

The simple point of all this is that AH 64 Apache is not good for close support missions AND it requires more maintenance then anything and everything else combined... Which is not that good when in the war zone.

If Maintenance is not a problem (which always is) and if it's operated at night ONLY then it could deliver sufficient mission results.

IMO the best Assault/Close support choppers in the world

1.Ka 50/52 (amour +weapons)

2.Mi 24 (Armour + speed passes)

3.Mi 28/ Super Cobra (medium amour/ agility+ weapons)

The only good thing about AH 64 is it's weapons. Armor and Maintained are totally unacceptable.... For 1 hour flight, it requires up 7 hour maintenance and it CAN NOT be serviced in the filed (only at base).

[sgt.pepper]

russian engineers are pretty good in the physics and aerodynamic theory of the aircraft ka-50,mig-29,su-37 are amazing constructions able to compete with every western aircraft or hello.

[gilgoul]

0.45 will not penetrate apache armour but 7.62mm nato and 0.5 will.During last campaigne one or two choppers were shot down by small arms fire maybe by long burst of ak-47/74 [many of them firing simultaneously] Uncle sam how do you know that apach can withstand direct hit of 23mm projectile?,man you are dreaming as far as i know only ka-50 has powerful armour and this armour can stop direct hit of 23 mm projectile.

Believe me, at leats the rotor and part of the pales are not facing total loss even in case of 23mm impact, that was the very Idea of the helo.

[sgt.pepper]

how did you figure that out?the impact of 23mm is so strong that it will disturb aerodinamical balance of a chopper.

[saigonsmuggler]

The Marines used Cobras in CAP, force protection, flank recon and CAS roles. In these roles, the choppers almost always flew close to the main convoys, friendly troops. Thus they can rely on several other ground and air elements for protection.

The Army 11th regiment, in this Karbala battle, flew the Longbow Apaches in a deep strike role against the Republican Guards - all alone and without any other support, along with faulty intelligence. The 11th commanders even kept this attack plan secret from the Air Force since they did not want to share the success with the A-10s and others.

After the karbala fubar, the 11th was out of commission. The Army then backtracked and worked with the Air Force on their plan of attack. On the very next run, A-10s led the attack on the tanks and headquarters elements, drawing out the AAA batteries, which were then attacked by the 101st Apaches (AH-64A). This attack was very successful and pretty much wiped out Baghdad's main southern defense with no friendly losses.

Everything pointed to the seriously flawed tactics in the original 11th regiment's attack.

Pound for pound, the Apaches are tougher than the Cobras. I am looking forward to the new King Cobras.

[Pooga]

Oh, I see. This is a "Hindz r bettar tahn APapches!!" battle. No thanks. Apache is cool. Hind is cool. Hind has a butt load of armor, but the Apache is not a flying tank. That's why we have A-10s. The Hind has to find like a fixed-wing aircraft.


Just some info that clears up a few things. Lots to read.
Apache:

Modern, tandem-seat, armoured and damage-resistant combat helicopter; is required to continue flying for 30 minutes after being hit by 12.7*mm bullets coming from anywhere in the lower hemisphere plus 20º; also survives 23*mm hits in many parts;
23 mm hits in many parts. Wonder what those parts may be?


airframe meets full crash-survival specifications.


Main transmission, by Litton Precision Gear Division, can operate for 1 hour without oil; tail rotor drive, by Aircraft Gear Corporation, has grease-lubricated gearboxes with Bendix driveshafts and couplings; gearboxes and shafts can operate for 1 hour after ballistic damage; main rotor shaft runs within airframe-mounted sleeve, relieving transmission of flight loads and allowing removal of transmission without disturbing rotor; AH-64A has flown aerobatic manoeuvres and is capable of flying at 0.5 g.


Main rotor blades (by Tool Research and Engineering Corporation, Composite Structures Divisions) tolerant to 23*mm cannon shells, have five U-sections forming spars and skins bonded with structural glass fibre tubes, laminated stainless steel skin and composites rear section; blades attached to hub by stack of laminated steel straps with elastomeric bearings. Northrop Grumman produces all fuselages, wings, tail, engine cowlings, canopies and avionics containers.
Interesting. Wonder if the engine could take 23mm shells. Methinks not.


Engines mounted one on each side of fuselage, above wings, with key components armour-protected.
Ah-ha!


Crew seats, by Simula Inc, are of lightweight Kevlar. Northrop Grumman canopy, with PPG transparencies and transparent acrylic blast barrier between cockpits, is designed to provide optimum field of view. Crew stations are protected by Ceradyne Inc lightweight boron armour shields in cockpit floor and sides, and between cockpits, offering protection against 12.7*mm armour-piercing rounds. Sierracin electric heating of windscreen. Seats and structure designed to give crew a 95 per cent chance of surviving ground impacts of up to 12.8*m (42*ft)/s. Simula of Phoenix, Arizona, under contract by US Army to develop cockpit-airbag system; development phase was due to be completed in early 1997, but was cancelled in favour of modifications to gunner's sighting equipment to lessen risk of injury.


Parker dual-hydraulic systems, operating at 207 bars (3,000*lb/sq in), with actuators ballistically tolerant to 12.7*mm direct hits. Redundant flight control system for both rotors. In the event of a flying control system failure, the system activates Honeywell secondary fly-by-wire control.

Apache has a VNE (never exceed speed) of 197 kt (365*km/h; 227*mph). Max rate of climb 736 m (2,415*ft)/min.

G's:
g limits at low altitude and airspeeds up to 164 kt (304*km/h; 189*mph): +3.5/-0.5. That's at least as good as a Mi-28 Havoc. I suppose on paper the Hokum is better than the Apache, sure. It's never been in combat, either, and how much newer is it than the Apache? Come on, man! :P

Well, there's the info. Do with it ass you please. The Hind is cool, the Apache is cool. Unless if you've flown both in combat, you can't say one is better than the other. They each have their flaws, and they each have their strong points.

[sergey31]

What Jane’s writes is one thing and what WE see in real life is totally different.
Follow up on performance of this amazing helicopter in recent Iraq war.

And yes, KA 50 was deployed in the first and EVEN MORE second Chechen war. 1994-96, 1999-2001.

Hind and Apache can not be compared as they are two different type machines design for different missions........ BUT in armor and Close support roles Apache can not be used, so they might just stick to Nighttime operations.

It's been shown and I'll find you pictures where AH 64 was brought down by enemy fire 12.7mm (.50BMG)...... I pretty sure that if 23mm would have been instead 12.7mm then it would probably explode in the air like in those 1980’s action Hollywood movies.
All claims but result are different..... Well, how else can you sell your product ?

[Pooga]

Ok bud, I stand corrected on the KA-50 one. Other than that, I believe your bias is clouding your judgement. Adios!