PC Indulgence = Death at Fort Hood

[Geezah]

After reading through some of the comments and condolences on the Fort Hood shooting thread, I came across this interesting comment by BAMF.


As a Muslim and an avid supporter of US troops deployed fighting extremists around the world, my deepest thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims. I was reading the comments on Alarabiya.net and it was surprising to see many of the bloggers saying that treachery is not a trait that Muslims have and most of them were curious about why a commissioned officer would do this horrible act if he wasn't forced into the military........ It’s a shame that this traitor had been allowed to enlist, I know many Arabs and Muslims who would join the fight against radical Muslims if they were given a chance. It is sad to say that the greatest enemies of Islam are Muslims and stupidity………

RIP to the fallen soldiers.
Link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4537609&postcount=442)

I had actually thought about whether or not Muslims in the US army are commited to their job or their religion first, and why would this guy have such a hard time being deployed to Afghanistan, when there are other Muslim Countries that have deployed troops there.

I'm pretty sure I read a while back about British Muslims in the British Army?

Obviously, the idea that all Muslim are alike, is somewhat overboard(but a normal reaction to these events).
My Sifu is/was Muslim, but had found alot in common with Christianity(and talked about converting), one of my Father's closets friends in the UK is a Muslim and works for alot of the Sheiks and Princes in London.

I guess my point is, it's refreshing to read the comment above from a Muslim MP.net member, who shows that not all Muslims are alike, and as always, it's the minority that spoil it for the Majority.


Again, please no flames, I'm only interested in serious discussion to the events that have taken place, and Mods, if this thread needs to be removed, please go ahead and do so.

RIP to the fallen, and I wish those that were injured a speedy recovery.

[West Texican]

The US military has the conscientious objector status for when religion and duty conflict. There may be some grayness in the rules but for the most part it works. I myself would not allow the conflict to go to the point of confrontation. If my religious beliefs conflicted with my duty I would request conscientious objector status. If denied then I would do my duty and follow orders. By following the procedure and stating my position to my commander I feel I would be true to my religion even if my duty conflicted with it. Personally I feel a soldier gets some slack with the Lord, if the soldier does his duty honorably. The last part is just my opinion.

[Connaught Ranger]

As this is the internet can answers to such a thread question even be verified

Or taken as a genuine?

To bring some balance would it not have to run in conjunction with the question:-

Are you a Soldeir first or a Christian?

Are you a Soldeir first or a Buddist?

Are you a Soldeir first or a Hindu?

So on and So forth.

Connaught Ranger.

[California Joe]

From what I've read and heard about this joker it looks to me as if...

-He was happy enough to get six years of high quality training in his vocation at the militaries expense.
-He was never very "pro military".
-He was deeply effected by the stories told to him by his PTSD patients.
-He was a coward that did not want to be deployed in harms way.
-He used his religion as a crutch or an excuse.
-The closer he got to deployment the more he retreated inwardly and the more radicalized he got.
-He was allowed to basically meltdown for months in front of other officers, enlisted members and superiors and no one thought to raise an alarm that this guy might not be wrapped too tight and could become a threat to himself and others.

JMO.

[Geezah]

As this is the internet can answers to such a thread question even be verified

Or taken as a genuine?

To bring some balance would it not have to run in conjunction with the question:-

Are you a Soldeir first or a Christian?

Are you a Soldeir first or a Buddist?

Are you a Soldeir first or a Hindu?

So on and So forth.

Connaught Ranger.

Maybe you misunderstood my post, or maybe the thread title should be changed.

We saw violence erupt a few years back from Sgt. Hasan Akbar when he killed two and wounded 14 of his brothers in arms, and if I remember correctly it was over his disagreement with the war.

[Ordie]

Does this mean we should ban postal workers from the military?

[shhfiles]

From what I've read and heard about this joker it looks to me as if...

-He was happy enough to get six years of high quality training in his vocation at the militaries expense.
-He was never very "pro military".
-He was deeply effected by the stories told to him by his PTSD patients.
-He was a coward that did not want to be deployed in harms way.
-He used his religion as a crutch or an excuse.
-The closer he got to deployment the more he retreated inwardly and the more radicalized he got.
-He was allowed to basically meltdown for months in front of other officers, enlisted members and superiors and no one thought to raise an alarm that this guy might not be wrapped too tight and could become a threat to himself and others.

JMO.

Exactly!!!!! PC be damned...This could have been prevented...

[seraosha]

Does this mean we should ban postal workers from the military?

FFS, what is your major malfunction?

This guy was a wingnut that used Islam as an excuse to cover his crumbling grasp on his mental health, and those around him didn't do an intervention when they should have.

Find a scapegoat for your imbecility somewhere else.

[walford]

Politically-correct double standard may have spawned mass murder at Fort Hood by Muslim soldier (http://www.examiner.com/x-7812-DC-SCOTUS-Examiner~y2009m11d6-Politicallycorrect-double-standard-spawned-mass-murder-at-Fort-Hood-by-Muslim-soldier)
A Muslim soldier, Nidal Hasan, shot dead 12 soldiers and a civilian at Fort Hood yesterday, shouting the Muslim expression "Allahu Akbar." But in an absurd display of political correctness, media reports barely mentioned the religion angle, choosing instead to highlight the fact that the killer was an "army psychiatrist" or the false claim that he was a veteran with PTSD (which he wasn't: he never even served overseas). Oh, those violent psychiatrists!

Now, we read that he had previously said that Muslims should rise up against the military, "repeatedly expressed sympathy for suicide bombers," and engaged in hate-speech against non-Muslims, publicly calling for the beheading or burning of non-Muslims, and talking "about how if you’re a nonbeliever the Koran says you should have your head cut off, you should have oil poured down your throat, you should be set on fire." But nothing was done to remove him from a position where he could harm others...

...in the military, soldiers get punished for bigotry all the time -- except for this guy. The courts have held that hate-speech or speech that "discriminatorily harasses" others can generally be criminally punished in the military, unlike in the outside world, and accordingly, white supremacists get disciplined for their views. (So, too, do soldiers who express disloyalty to their country or merely contempt for their Commander in Chief.) But not this soldier, who was more dangerous than your typical white supremacist...Bending over backward to not offend Muslims for the fact that they are over-represented when it comes to religious-motivated mass-killing has cost lives.

It is they who need to own to the fact that "Allahu Akbar" would likely cause more panic if shouted in a crowded theater than yelling "fire" -- and for good reason.

[hulaku]

Bending over backward to not offend Muslims for the fact that they are over-represented when it comes to religious-motivated mass-killing has cost lives.

x2

And may I point out that this is not just an American phenomenon but a fact in most democratic nations with Muslim populations.

[demotivater]

And you're about to see PC in action when you get a heap of **** for posting common sense.

[Ordie]

FFS, what is your major malfunction?

This guy was a wingnut that used Islam as an excuse to cover his crumbling grasp on his mental health, and those around him didn't do an intervention when they should have.

Find a scapegoat for your imbecility somewhere else.

My apologies for my remarks.

[Soldat_Américain]

From what I've read and heard about this joker it looks to me as if...

-He was happy enough to get six years of high quality training in his vocation at the militaries expense.
-He was never very "pro military".
-He was deeply effected by the stories told to him by his PTSD patients.
-He was a coward that did not want to be deployed in harms way.
-He used his religion as a crutch or an excuse.
-The closer he got to deployment the more he retreated inwardly and the more radicalized he got.
-He was allowed to basically meltdown for months in front of other officers, enlisted members and superiors and no one thought to raise an alarm that this guy might not be wrapped too tight and could become a threat to himself and others.

JMO.

QFT...Seraosha, I think Joe hit it on the head. He used his religion as an excuse, but we're also using it as his reason for doing what he did and not looking at the other factors involved.

[Ritual]

PC or not Walford nailed it.

[Atlantic Friend]

Bending over backward to not offend Muslims for the fact that they are over-represented when it comes to religious-motivated mass-killing has cost lives.

It is they who need to own to the fact that "Allahu Akbar" would likely cause more panic if shouted in a crowded theater than yelling "fire" -- and for good reason.

Muslims are also over-represented when it comes to being victims of terrorism...

[2495]

Bending over backward to not offend Muslims for the fact that they are over-represented when it comes to religious-motivated mass-killing has cost lives.

It is they who need to own to the fact that "Allahu Akbar" would likely cause more panic if shouted in a crowded theater than yelling "fire" -- and for good reason.


x2

And may I point out that this is not just an American phenomenon but a fact in most democratic nations with Muslim populations.


And you're about to see PC in action when you get a heap of **** for posting common sense.


PC or not Walford nailed it.

Truth or not, this threads got a whole heap of potential for lock. Hope not, because a long hard look needs to be taken at just how far the West should go to accomodate 'minorities', especially those who want to see the fall of the west into a religious hell of ignorance and fear.

[Noons86]

To be fair, and I'm not trying to be PC here, the details about the things he said and did relating to being a muslim came out long after the fact that he was a psychiatrist came out. That makes sense, as it is easier to pull up a professional file in a short time than to talk to his friends to get a sense of character.

Also, the notion that a psychiatrist - whose job is to help people at risk of committing violent, deadly outbursts - would himself commit a violent, deadly outburst, is itself a juicy media story, regardless of his ethnic/religious background.

[XShipRider]

... is itself a juicy media story, ...

We have a winner. If it bleeds it leads.

[walford]

Muslims are also over-represented when it comes to being victims of terrorism......and the perps are overwhelmingly Muslim as well.

The Palestinians turn out in the streets for when they are killed by Israelis -- even though it is mostly because terrorists hide amongst them. But they kill each other in far greater numbers on a regular basis.

Same goes with Iraq. Mass-graves were apparently being filled regularly under the Saddam regime and was put to an abrupt halt when he was ousted. And the killing that continues is almost 100% Muslim-on-Muslim.

And yet who gets the lion's share of protest?

[clean]

We bend over backwards because we are fighting for freedom. And the freedom we fight for is all inclusive. And fighting a war that way opens us all up as targets. And it opens us all up as targets anywhere we are. Home, office, battlefield.

But we are advanced citizens. We vote, we protest, we fight. And we allow equal rights to all (though we screw that up on occasion).

We're on the side we are on, so we have to bend over backwards to not offend. Because all muslims are not suicide bombers. Though there needs to be some quid pro quo.

[walford]

Most suicide bombers are Muslims. Most religious-motivated mass-killings are perpetrated by Muslims. If someone on a plane yelled "God is great" I would glance over in mild annoyance. If someone on a plane yelled "Allahu Akbar" I would...react differently.

[clean]

Most suicide bombers are Muslims. Most religious-motivated mass-killings are perpetrated by Muslims. If someone on a plane yelled "God is great" I would glance over in mild annoyance. If someone on a plane yelled "Allahu Akbar" I would...react differently.

Well, yeah, and I would stab the guy in the neck with a plastic spork while you held him down.

What I'm trying to say, is we can't judge someone because they are Muslim. We have to wait for them to act. That's the risk we have to take because of who we are.

[Ordie]

Most suicide bombers are Muslims.

And all were people.

[Rugal09]

Well, yeah, and I would stab the guy in the neck with a plastic spork while you held him down.

What I'm trying to say, is we can't judge someone because they are Muslim. We have to wait for them to act. That's the risk we have to take because of who we are.

I understand what you are saying but if you wait, you can get killed, and who wants to take that risk?

The fact is that this guy was already showing extremist signs/warnings and he should have been picked up and questioned. It is intolerable knowing that no action was taken.

[clean]

And all were people.

For f*cks sake, Ordie, I'm trying to have a dialogue. You have to come up with that Bay Area everyone hug everyone crap.

Suicide bombers might be people in the world of science, but they are an affront to humanity.

[walford]

Well, yeah, and I would stab the guy in the neck with a plastic spork while you held him down.

What I'm trying to say, is we can't judge someone because they are Muslim. We have to wait for them to act. That's the risk we have to take because of who we are.I fully understand and appreciate your point. I am appalled that people who even look Muslim [e.g. Hindi, Sikhs] are being harassed by ignorant people. But for their part, Muslims have to concede that their co-religionists are over-represented with certain types of violent activities.

Beyond that, it is by no means certain where "mainstream" Islam lies with respect to tolerating other religions or lifestyles. Their rhetoric and actions do not speak well of them in that regard. It is all to often that they expect to be accommodated -- and even indulged -- when visiting or living in the West. Meanwhile in their homelands, that is most certainly not reciprocated I promise you.

Too many of them start from the datum that theirs is the only way.

[California Joe]

I'm not trying to be politically incorrect. I'm just saying that even the limited reporting on the investigation and the interviews with neighbors etc seems to profile a seriously unhappy guy that was folding inward and clinging to a warped view of the world and his religion, the closer he got to being deployed.

The fact that it played out in public, on the job and off, and no one questioned it is rather disturbing. I've worked in the DoD with every rank, from Enlisted to the Joint Chiefs, and I can't remotely imagine listening to an 0-4 spout sh*t about Muslims rising up and lauding the achievements of suicide bombers in any possible scenario at work without him being goatf*cked..

I realize what I wrote before sounds like quite a bit of conjecture but he has all the signs of a guy seriously losing it.

[SBL]

And all were people.
That's like, really deep, man.

[clean]

The fact is that this guy was already showing extremist signs/warnings and he should have been picked up and questioned. It is intolerable knowing that no action was taken.

Yeah, this guy was already on the radar. But just because you are on the radar, doesn't mean action can be taken. Hell, we all could be on the radar, but there's nothing to show that we will be a threat. And until there's hard evidence, not too much can be done.

His posts, from what I read, were very "gray." He noted that "scholars" had said that jumping on a grenade is similar to the actions of a suicide bomber. THAT was enough to get him noticed, but still not enough to act.

And THAT... is the risk we put ourselves in. But innocent until proven guilty.

[California Joe]

I would also venture a supposition that him being an 0-4 had a lot to do with his behavior not being questioned.

I merged 2 threads that are basically discussing the same things. Don't freak out. Keep it civil.

[clean]

I fully understand and appreciate your point. I am appalled that people who even look Muslim [e.g. Hindi, Sikhs] are being harassed by ignorant people. But for their part, Muslims have to concede that their co-religionists are over-represented with certain types of violent activities.


I think it is the duty of American Muslims to clean their own house. A few years back, Muslims in america were outraged that the bad guys in the TV show "24" were muslim. And I remember thinking "F*cking really?!?!?!" A year after 9/11, THIS is what you are pissed off about?"

It's not only their duty as Americans, but also their duty as representatives of the peace loving religion of Islam. That's what I meant as quid pro quo.

Calling acts after they were commited "cowardly" really shouldn't cut it anymore.

[Ordie]

There will be much investigation, anguish and soul searching.

My fear, because of the shooter's professional background, soldiers may be less inclined to seek mental health services and counseling.

Especially now when many at Ft. Hood need grief counseling and assistance.

In talking with a psychiatrist neighbor, he said that the shooter's professional education and track is uncommon. Normally many undergo years of med-school, residency and clinical or private practice at different locations and times. The shooter did his med school, residency and practice within the same institution.

It is a professional norm for psychiatrist to undergo counseling on a regular basis to remain well. Many in this profession have the highest rates of divorces, suicides, and drug use within the medical profession.

I'm going to shut up for now.

[clean]

It is a professional norm for psychiatrist to undergo counseling on a regular basis to remain well. Many in this profession have the highest rates of divorces, suicides, and drug use within the medical profession.


Good point. My dad is a PhD in psychology and was SFPD at the same time. He counseled cops and helped them through their problems, but couldn't deal with any problems at home.

Much like a plumber who's pipes in his own house leak, or the car mechanic who's car won't start in the morning.

[Clockwinder]

Much has been said about him being a 20 year man - he spent 8 years enlisted and then went to college for 4 years, med school for another 4 and then residency at Walter Reed - he is a civvie in cams. By him swearing an oath to protect the United Sates and the Constitution and by accepting salutes while wearing that uniform, he effectively gave up any rights to public political views - AND the uniform gave him protection from PC views, by default. He is a TRAITOR and a MURDERER .

[USMCRTop]

we bend over backwards because we are fighting for freedom. And the freedom we fight for is all inclusive. And fighting a war that way opens us all up as targets. And it opens us all up as targets anywhere we are. Home, office, battlefield.

But we are advanced citizens. We vote, we protest, we fight. And we allow equal rights to all (though we screw that up on occasion).

We're on the side we are on, so we have to bend over backwards to not offend. Because all muslims are not suicide bombers. Though there needs to be some quid pro quo.

x10000000000

[Ordie]

Good point. My dad is a PhD in psychology and was SFPD at the same time. He counseled cops and helped them through their problems, but couldn't deal with any problems at home.

Much like a plumber who's pipes in his own house leak, or the car mechanic who's car won't start in the morning.

"In the blacksmith's house (hangs) a wooden spoon."

[commanding]

I'm not trying to be politically incorrect. I'm just saying that even the limited reporting on the investigation and the interviews with neighbors etc seems to profile a seriously unhappy guy that was folding inward and clinging to a warped view of the world and his religion, the closer he got to being deployed.

The fact that it played out in public, on the job and off, and no one questioned it is rather disturbing. I've worked in the DoD with every rank, from Enlisted to the Joint Chiefs, and I can't remotely imagine listening to an 0-4 spout sh*t about Muslims rising up and lauding the achievements of suicide bombers in any possible scenario at work without him being goatf*cked..

I realize what I wrote before sounds like quite a bit of conjecture but he has all the signs of a guy seriously losing it.
I have pondered on the whys of this event also. Most of the seemingly apparent motives for this, would IMO be a no go. Maybe they all piled up on him. Maybe it was something different.
From what I read, similar to what CJ read, he (shooter) was a weird duck. Evidently lived in a super cheap apartment (like 350 a month) despite being a Major in rank and well paid, unmarried at 39-40, took to wearing arabian type clothing (i dont' know what you call that stuff so those are the kindest words i could muster), etc. But he seemed to be polite and was giving away his possessions toward the "end" the closer it got to deployment, or his rampage, however he percieved it.
I think of other nutjob shooters, ...Charles Whitman in 1966, at the Univ. of Texas, I believe they found a brain tumor in his skull at the autopsy. Lee Oswald, don't know if anyone ever came up with a motive that would make any sense on him.
I can't feature, a professional military soldier in the US army being so opposed to going to a war zone that he would do this. All though, since his ancestry was Arab, perhaps that influenced his motive?? I can't really feature that either, as I knew lots of Americans with German ancestry, and Japanese ancestry who fought for the US in WWII.
Of course, everyone is built different mentally,....so who knows? I am sure the Army will get the bottom of the situation.

[demotivater]

What changed since the days of Chuck Norris movies in the 80's when all the bad guys were Arab's / Muslims? No way would they get away with making those movies these days. Yet, nobody said squat about them being them offensive back then - at least not that I remember. Now that we've been attacked and have responded in kind, suddenly we have to be nice and all inclusive? Are we that scared?

[clean]

What changed since the days of Chuck Norris movies in the 80's when all the bad guys were Arab's / Muslims? No way would they get away with making those movies these days. Yet, nobody said squat about them being them offensive back then - at least not that I remember. Now that we've been attacked and have responded in kind, suddenly we have to be nice and all inclusive? Are we that scared?

It's not about being scared. We just can't defeat a religion. Because the USA was founded as a place for all religions. It goes against who we are.

As for the Chuck Norris movies, I'd take you back to Bugs Bunny and the cartoons of the 40s and 50s. No one said anything about their portrayals of Tar Babies, and Yosemite Sam being a dumb ass redneck calling out to a guy with no teeth and an banjo "It's one of OUR boys."


The reason we don't "get away" with this stuff anymore, is because we as a society progress. And that's what we fight for. Progression, freedom, and the right to having our say.

[gazell]

Too add to what CJ already said, and some others in bits and bobs, a lot of guys go into psychiatry, because they already have some problem, in my experience at least. I think, a lot more serious check on them in high security fields is needed.

Otherwise, we are getting to the level with PC in some places as minorities get away with murder as people do not dare to challenge them.

[WKD]

From what I've read and heard about this joker it looks to me as if...

-He was happy enough to get six years of high quality training in his vocation at the militaries expense.
-He was never very "pro military".
-He was deeply effected by the stories told to him by his PTSD patients.
-He was a coward that did not want to be deployed in harms way.
-He used his religion as a crutch or an excuse.
-The closer he got to deployment the more he retreated inwardly and the more radicalized he got.
-He was allowed to basically meltdown for months in front of other officers, enlisted members and superiors and no one thought to raise an alarm that this guy might not be wrapped too tight and could become a threat to himself and others.

JMO.

Thanks for that Mr Joe.

[Rugal09]

It's not about being scared. We just can't defeat a religion. Because the USA was founded as a place for all religions. It goes against who we are.



We're not talking about defeating a religion. We're talking about defeating an insidious element within religion that is inconsistent with today's ideals of progress, modernity, and open mindedness. If the members of a particular religious philosophy cannot control, change or voice a loud enough opposition against such misuse and improriety of their own religion AND if they don't appreciate others complaining about it, then what should one do??

[West Texican]

Muslim victims of Muslim terrorism throws the concept of "jihad against the infidels" out the window. It's not "kill everyone who does not submit to Allah", it's "kill everyone who does not submit to me". Islam is defamed daily by these few who use Islam just as a parasite uses its victim. If the followers of Islam do not stand up to them they will wind up worshipping a dictator, not God. PC be damned, some have already replaced Allah with the mullah. As a Christian I admit that some of us listen to much to the preacher and not enough to the Teacher.

Just my my opinion.

[clean]

Muslim victims of Muslim terrorism throws the concept of "jihad against the infidels" out the window. It's not "kill everyone who does not submit to Allah", it's "kill everyone who does not submit to me". Islam is defamed daily by these few who use Islam just as a parasite uses its victim. If the followers of Islam do not stand up to them they will wind up worshipping a dictator, not God. PC be damned, some have already replaced Allah with the mullah. As a Christian I admit that some of us listen to much to the preacher and not enough to the Teacher.

Just my my opinion.


A good one.

[clean]

If the members of a particular religious philosophy cannot control, change or voice a loud enough opposition against such misuse and improriety of their own religion AND if they don't appreciate others complaining about it, then what should one do??

If you figure that one out, then let me know. All I know is we can't blame the many for the sins of the few. And sometimes I want to, but we just can't.

And that's not to say I'm against profiling. I've always believe in profiling. But not as a fast track to guilt.

[KoTeMoRe]

Yeah, this guy was already on the radar. But just because you are on the radar, doesn't mean action can be taken. Hell, we all could be on the radar, but there's nothing to show that we will be a threat. And until there's hard evidence, not too much can be done.

His posts, from what I read, were very "gray." He noted that "scholars" had said that jumping on a grenade is similar to the actions of a suicide bomber. THAT was enough to get him noticed, but still not enough to act.

And THAT... is the risk we put ourselves in. But innocent until proven guilty.

What was reportedly posted by this guy, was nonsense. I can barely imagine what kind of "training" was dispensed to him. Obviously he had never heard about the notion of "habitus".
Very well understood and researched matter from WW2 and onwards. German soldiers, Japanese "kamikazes", Soviet soldiers that fought against all odds and still got killed, were NOT suicidal by a mile.
They were just there, thinking what might happen to their loved ones (non mentioning the Bushido when speaking about the Japanese).

On the other hand we have distorted views of a reality, further made up by "scholars" dressed up as religion. And this no matter what religion. Apparently what happened to Christianity from the 15th to the 18th century is still raging within Islam.

Personally I appreciate your opinion, because that's how I see the said issue. If we pre-emptievely neutralize the "potential" threats, well we're back to the "enemies of the people" et al. And sadly I've been there, done that. No thanks.

Great Input.

Edit: CJ: Yes a weak individual, but yet fvcked up enough to go on a rampage. You make sense on a lot of points.
WT: Again nicely spotted.

[FrankBooth]

http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/index.php?showtopic=85664&st=0

I'm amazed at the excuses people will come up with, and lack of respect on even the most basic levels. Things like the thread above make me appreciate the debate that goes on here, fairly healthy for the most part.

[CMNot]

Interesting none the less to see people having the same discussion from the other side of the fence.

[clean]

http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/index.php?showtopic=85664&st=0
Things like the thread above make me appreciate the debate that goes on here, fairly healthy for the most part.

We started out here having healthy debate. And that's how it should be. The mp.net is a great resource, and has been for many years. Lately we seem to have alot of people who just want to mouth off and be the most amazing "internet tough guy" they can be. And it scared off alot of the best and brightest members. But debate is good. It's healthy. And I find this is a great place to have those debates. If we keep them civil, we keep them going.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

What changed since the days of Chuck Norris movies in the 80's when all the bad guys were Arab's / Muslims? No way would they get away with making those movies these days. Yet, nobody said squat about them being them offensive back then - at least not that I remember. Now that we've been attacked and have responded in kind, suddenly we have to be nice and all inclusive? Are we that scared?

Ask linedoggie about the muslims he served with who died for your country.

[Atlantic Friend]

And the killing that continues is almost 100% Muslim-on-Muslim.

Which should be a good reason to tread lightly when it comes to stereotyping Muslims IMHO.

Claiming, so shortly after the tragedy, that the deaths in Fort Hood boil down to "bending over backward" to Muslims is, IMHO, just another form of political correctness. PCness of a more acceptable brand, perhaps, PCness with a more palatable approach, maybe, but PCness nonetheless.

[budgie]

After reading through some of the comments and condolences on the Fort Hood shooting thread, I came across this interesting comment by BAMF.


Link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4537609&postcount=442)

I had actually thought about whether or not Muslims in the US army are commited to their job or their religion first, and why would this guy have such a hard time being deployed to Afghanistan, when there are other Muslim Countries that have deployed troops there.

I'm pretty sure I read a while back about British Muslims in the British Army?

Obviously, the idea that all Muslim are alike, is somewhat overboard(but a normal reaction to these events).
My Sifu is/was Muslim, but had found alot in common with Christianity(and talked about converting), one of my Father's closets friends in the UK is a Muslim and works for alot of the Sheiks and Princes in London.

I guess my point is, it's refreshing to read the comment above from a Muslim MP.net member, who shows that not all Muslims are alike, and as always, it's the minority that spoil it for the Majority.


Again, please no flames, I'm only interested in serious discussion to the events that have taken place, and Mods, if this thread needs to be removed, please go ahead and do so.

RIP to the fallen, and I wish those that were injured a speedy recovery.

I pretty much agree. It's the crazies who spoil it for everyone else.

But PC indulgence? Not much of a thread title as it's not even addressed in your post. I don't think that any kind of PC coddling or 'appeasement' contributed to Hasan's rampage. Quite the opposite: apparently he felt somehow society was against him because of his religion.

In the end though only deep psychological and personal problems could drive someone to such extremes. It's really just a variation of 'going postal' and while he may cite religion as an excuse if he lives to talk, it will be just that - an excuse. Crazed gunmen really only open fire on their colleagues/neighbours/local mall because well, they're crazy. I'd bet they'll eventually find he was suffering from some kind of depression, had some family problems and perhaps some substance abuse. This is usually what comes out after mass shootings.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

But PC indulgence? Not much of a thread title as it's not even addressed in your post.

Not the original. Threads were merged.

[Macs.]

I think it is the duty of American Muslims to clean their own house. A few years back, Muslims in america were outraged that the bad guys in the TV show "24" were muslim. And I remember thinking "F*cking really?!?!?!" A year after 9/11, THIS is what you are pissed off about?"

It's not only their duty as Americans, but also their duty as representatives of the peace loving religion of Islam. That's what I meant as quid pro quo.

Calling acts after they were commited "cowardly" really shouldn't cut it anymore.

I can understand where you come from, but I think one should understand that you don't want to excuse yourself for someone who shares the same religion, birthplace, skin color or whatever and with who you have no real connection.

If you meet someone from Vietnam, do you excuse yourself for war crimes that happened during the Vietnam war ?

[commanding]

Let me just say there are some really fine Americans who are Islamic, they are much more religious than myself, and they are not foaming at the mouth radicals, nor or they latent "sleeper cell" types either. They love this country, and are not only saddened by what happened but they feel somewhat of a sense of shame, that a person claiming to be from their religion, did such a thing.

Just as there are wackos who claim to be doing Christs work, there are wackos who think they are doing Allahs' work.

Wackoism, has no respect for boundaries of flavor of religion, color, or nationality.

[Fargin]

I'm a christian like Fred Phelps, however I'm not like him.

[demotivater]

Ask linedoggie about the muslims he served with who died for your country.
I have no doubts about that, and I wasn't trying to come off as a bigot. One of my good friends took a rash of **** around 9/11 because he is Muslim, and he's gone to great lengths for the country since then. I'm not narrow enough to pigeon hole a whole race or religion.

My point is, we are so damned afraid of offending someone that we're letting people who set off every alarm in our being slip through the cracks. These events are a prime example of the result of that. God forbid we get sued by someone for profiling or the dreaded racism. The warning signs were obviously there (yet again) yet were not dealt with for the simple fact that someone was afraid of some sort of backlash. And here we are, almost 50 casualties later in one afternoon.

If I'm anti anything, it's anti PC. I don't give a **** which direction you pray to, if you're on my left or right and not shooting at me, I've got your back. Anything else that presents an obvious threat, through deeds or language, needs to be dealt with swiftly and decisively with no PC bull**** coming into play.

When the enemy is at your doorstep, smart move is to not let him in, even through the side door.

[CantGetRight]

And you're about to see PC in action when you get a heap of **** for posting common sense.

yep, this thread will probably get locked, suspensions thrown around, because its so frowned upon, to call any group of people on their problems

only other social example I can think of off the top of my head...

You cant pinpoint blacks for having problems with education, crime and children out of wedlock, even though its true, the problem will never be fixed when people are to cowardly to even identify it

Here we have a worldwide parallel to that example, only thousands of lives have been lost. Islam has a propensity above other religions for violence. PERIOD

yet its called the "religion of peace"

Its history is ignored, the perpetrators are publicly denounced and Muslim speakers question their faith as Muslims. All point towards blaming the individual and clearing the name of Islam. Yet if you study the Koran, study history, if a person takes the time to educate themselves, this is an all too repetitive pattern. The reasons have changed slightly over centuries but the core of violence remains the same, and the blood spilt is still the same color.

In my opinion, religions evolve, Christianity certainly has, to a point of slowly dissolving as people look to education and material lives in the Western world. Without meriting the pros or cons of that, it is happening is it not? Islam is several hundred years behind, just as it is several hundred years younger. The society that breeds it is also behind. One difference again with Islam and Christianity is that one holy book DOES openly call for violence against all non-_______. while one holy book does not. The Koran not only calls for but glorifies violence against all non believers. Noone can say I'm pulling this out of thin air, nor am I pulling it out of context.

I have no idea what most Muslims think of these verses, I would think most are like modern Christians, who have not, and probably never will read their holy book. But the "extremists" who repeatedly spill blood in the name of Allah, do read the Koran, and feel justified by it.

I think Islam fosters violence, period. It has for centuries. It breeds violence and hatred in every part of the globe its represented. The Middle East, Europe, Asia, Africa and even here in North America.

No I'm not calling all Muslims terrorists, they're obviously not. But disproportionate amount sure do rise from your ranks.

Something I should have said earlier

Everyone who lives in the US probably knows at least one "holy roller", Christians who are constantly trying to spread the word, inviting everyone to bible study, frowning on most of todays pop culture, tucking in their shirt, saying darn and oh my, etc etc. Thats about as extreme as Christians seem to get these days. Muslims who give their life completely to the religion however, seem to take quite a different turn.

I feel like most Western Muslims either don't truly read the Koran just like most Christians don't read the Bible, OR, they dismiss the verses calling for violence as a metaphor for something else, or as something abrogated. This guy may very well have taken it all seriously.

[Ordie]

Religious fundamentalist no matter the faith tends to drift on towards apocalyptic vision and outcome with rationalization of violent and hateful acts.

Religion and guns don't kill, its the person doing the act.

[CantGetRight]

We're not talking about defeating a religion. We're talking about defeating an insidious element within religion that is inconsistent with today's ideals of progress, modernity, and open mindedness. If the members of a particular religious philosophy cannot control, change or voice a loud enough opposition against such misuse and improriety of their own religion AND if they don't appreciate others complaining about it, then what should one do??

BRAVO!

Something I should of said in my last post, maybe he was just a jacked up dude, and religion was an excuse he used, we in the US do have a propensity for rampages/shootings. But, I doubt it.

I wonder what fallout this will have on the military though. We already have multiple surveys before deploying and after coming home questioning our mental health. The Army is all about suicide prevention now and the things we're "trained" on would have told one to sound the alarm on this guy. Someone dropped the ball.

One thing that came to my mind trying to wrap my head around why this could happen. He must have listened to quite a few soldiers telling not so pleasant stories of things which dug into their minds and conscience. Just in my limited view of the Army experience, there are some terrible terrible things that have happened. US soldiers which by accident, by doctrine, by fear, by anger, by sheer malice, have done horrible things. As a Muslim, some of these stories probably struck him personally.

[Muzungu]

Indian army is the finest example of multi cultural, mutil religion, multi race, multi language etc etc.

we have hindus, muslims, sikhs, christians, jews serving in the indian army.

we have religion based units in the indian army.

Hindus taking orders from muslim officers, muslims taking orders from sikh officers.

the first officer to loose his life in Kargil war against islamic republic of pakistan was an indian muslim, Capt Haneefuddin.

we had few cases of army being used against religious places like operation blue star on Golden temple, the sikh's holy shrine. the operation was led by a Sikh. though some sikh units in the indian army revolted and shot dead few soldiers, they were brought under control.

we have proper integration of religion into indian army and dont have religion based incidents.

stress related shootings of fellow soldiers in the indian army do take place, but not related to religion!

[the_13th_redneck]

From what I've read and heard about this joker it looks to me as if...

-He was happy enough to get six years of high quality training in his vocation at the militaries expense.
-He was never very "pro military".
-He was deeply effected by the stories told to him by his PTSD patients.
-He was a coward that did not want to be deployed in harms way.
-He used his religion as a crutch or an excuse.
-The closer he got to deployment the more he retreated inwardly and the more radicalized he got.
-He was allowed to basically meltdown for months in front of other officers, enlisted members and superiors and no one thought to raise an alarm that this guy might not be wrapped too tight and could become a threat to himself and others.

JMO.

That part I bolded is what I think was the ultimate reason why this guy went bezerk.

[Arnie100]

No, he was a coward.

[martinexsquaddie]

he was going to spend a year at bastion Doubt he'd ever leave the fence.
bloke wandering around the base in a dish dash.
surely somebody should have gone huh?
He'd spent 8 years in a chusty 9 to 5 the idea of going into "harms way" which bastion would have seen to him.

my Shrine to Jodie foster and holding conversations with my rifle got me to interviews with trick cyclists first one got really excited. The more senior one understood squaddie humour. privates have loads of people around them and able to shout at them.
medical majors don't and if he is not going his boss is going to find someone else which is a bit harder than finding a spare private

[KoTeMoRe]

yep, this thread will probably get locked, suspensions thrown around, because its so frowned upon, to call any group of people on their problems

only other social example I can think of off the top of my head...

You cant pinpoint blacks for having problems with education, crime and children out of wedlock, even though its true, the problem will never be fixed when people are to cowardly to even identify it

Here we have a worldwide parallel to that example, only thousands of lives have been lost. Islam has a propensity above other religions for violence. PERIOD

yet its called the "religion of peace"

Its history is ignored, the perpetrators are publicly denounced and Muslim speakers question their faith as Muslims. All point towards blaming the individual and clearing the name of Islam. Yet if you study the Koran, study history, if a person takes the time to educate themselves, this is an all too repetitive pattern. The reasons have changed slightly over centuries but the core of violence remains the same, and the blood spilt is still the same color.

In my opinion, religions evolve, Christianity certainly has, to a point of slowly dissolving as people look to education and material lives in the Western world. Without meriting the pros or cons of that, it is happening is it not? Islam is several hundred years behind, just as it is several hundred years younger. The society that breeds it is also behind. One difference again with Islam and Christianity is that one holy book DOES openly call for violence against all non-_______. while one holy book does not. The Koran not only calls for but glorifies violence against all non believers. Noone can say I'm pulling this out of thin air, nor am I pulling it out of context.

I have no idea what most Muslims think of these verses, I would think most are like modern Christians, who have not, and probably never will read their holy book. But the "extremists" who repeatedly spill blood in the name of Allah, do read the Koran, and feel justified by it.

I think Islam fosters violence, period. It has for centuries. It breeds violence and hatred in every part of the globe its represented. The Middle East, Europe, Asia, Africa and even here in North America.

No I'm not calling all Muslims terrorists, they're obviously not. But disproportionate amount sure do rise from your ranks.

Something I should have said earlier

Everyone who lives in the US probably knows at least one "holy roller", Christians who are constantly trying to spread the word, inviting everyone to bible study, frowning on most of todays pop culture, tucking in their shirt, saying darn and oh my, etc etc. Thats about as extreme as Christians seem to get these days. Muslims who give their life completely to the religion however, seem to take quite a different turn.

I feel like most Western Muslims either don't truly read the Koran just like most Christians don't read the Bible, OR, they dismiss the verses calling for violence as a metaphor for something else, or as something abrogated. This guy may very well have taken it all seriously.

We had a "ideology of peace" that was supported by two of the most brutal regimes that history has known. That didn't made all communists bloodsuckers or baby eaters. You can have muslim zealots, among them those that embrace suffism, whose daily jihad is being above everything they see as unislamic. Turkish people that I know have this propension to come out as fairly uninterested from religious bigotry. Despite some very special statements from the current Turkish head of state over assimilation.

Now this changes with the very way those who go berserk are raised. In most cases the converted are "lumpenproletariat", thus easily turned in and available.

But the others, those who "infect" them are usually as hateful of their minions than of the west. That betrays a far more simple and individual frustration than this whole "Holy War" non-sense. They're jealous of what they see as the "Western" ability to influence every decision and outcome in this planet. Even incidentally.

Just imagine this some filthy pork eater whose earnings don't exceed 20 000 USD just broke the back of their slot machine by being eligible for a mortgage.

As for being extreme and Christianity, well Christians are actually the most powerful group in this planet. The most powerful nation in this dirtball relies heavily to christianity. Another powerful nation sees its President and PM turn regularly to masses and its population being increasingly appealed by the Holy Cross (at least externally). Both these nations have in their recent past dealt with Muslim opponents and have crushed them in a tragic way.

Edit: On the other hand I found it utterly ironical that he was taken down by a woman. That much for the inherent machismo on both religion, police forces and armed forces.

[hank2222]

most of the muslin i know here in texas is so shock and outrage by the shooting at ft hood that they feel that it going to bring more trouble for them here in the United States ..

they feel that the world views them only as bombers and mass murders of the world ..instead of people who have childern and want there childern to grow up in a world that to all the hopes and dreams of the good life that we have here in the United States of America

i date a women who was born in Iran and moved here in the late 80s time frame after they got out of iran ..they are the most careing and giveing people that you will ever met in you life..

the father have allways thought it was funny that i did the old fashioned way of comeing to the house to ask to date his daughter ..for she is 36.years old and single with a child ..she a doctor here in the area of texas i live on ..she thinks it funny at time that a guy who grew up lds family and i know how to do all the old custom from the middle east when asking her father to be allowed to date her and knows about the Koran and can tell you passage out of it along with the bible also ..

for in there house i am treated like a long lost son in the family ..i speak a little bit of Farsi ..i do the basic of asking them for a glass of water or tea and something to eat ..but they also speak german and french and spanish in the house for drinner time is a wonderfull time with the brother and there wives and other family members talking in diff langauage around the table ..


tonight our drinner table talk tonight was the shooting and they are really deeply hurt by the way this person did to the people there ..for they and few over the old guest at the table feels so badly for they say this county has given them so much and it ask very little in return ..that someone can do this to our people ..for they it end of times someone said at the table ..

[Laworkerbee]

Muslim victims of Muslim terrorism throws the concept of "jihad against the infidels" out the window. It's not "kill everyone who does not submit to Allah", it's "kill everyone who does not submit to me". Islam is defamed daily by these few who use Islam just as a parasite uses its victim.

Sorry but you need to get acquainted with the practice of takfir. the declaring of fellow Muslims to be apostates who can be killed at well.

In the desert before there was a Saudi state Ibn Addel Wahhab's Bedouin converts, pillaging non-Wahhabi neighbors stopped being simple banditry and turned into God's work once the practice of takfir was established.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Edit: On the other hand I found it utterly ironical that he was taken down by a woman. That much for the inherent machismo on both religion, police forces and armed forces.That was the initial thought that came across my mind.

Other thoughts, similar to the ones I had after Columbine, go unsaid because the ban stick loometh.

[Wimbly]

That part I bolded is what I think was the ultimate reason why this guy went bezerk.

You're saying he got 2nd hand PTSD?

One thing that really annoys me about this incident is how people are claiming his religion doesn't matter. Even though it clearly played a part in his ultimate decision to massacre people. However, if a white guy shoots a bunch of black people while screaming racial slurs, the same people would instantly call it a racist hate crime (rightfully so). Thats a pretty major inconsistency that I'd like to see explained. It seems like motivation is only a legitimate factor if it fits a certain narrative.

[Ordie]

You're saying he got 2nd hand PTSD?

One thing that really annoys me about this incident is how people are claiming his religion doesn't matter. Even though it clearly played a part in his ultimate decision to massacre people. However, if a white guy shoots a bunch of black people while screaming racial slurs, the same people would instantly call it a racist hate crime (rightfully so). Thats a pretty major inconsistency that I'd like to see explained. It seems like motivation is only a legitimate factor if it fits a certain narrative.

Mental health workers have an emotionally draining proffession. I'm sure after a while one would question what is normal. In reading more about this Majors life, it shows the symptoms of the typical socially ostracized loner common with many "postal" shooters.

Religion was a crutch and used to rationalize his actions just as you can rationalize any act by prooftexting any holy book.

Much of the attention will be focused on the Chain of Command and whether the Majors superiors were made aware of his conditions or ingored him.

[the_13th_redneck]

I think his religion and ethnicity had something to do with it but wasn't the complete story.
I don't think he got 2nd hand PTSD per se, but assuming you are American, let's say you were a citizen of ... let's say Germany back in the 30's and every day you heard your patients refer to Americans in the worst sort of way. You know, stuff like, "ain't worth the dirt under my toenails," "I want to kill every last one of them" etc. Eventually you'll think that enough is enough.
At the end of the day, his unit's leadership should have KNOWN that this was going to be a problem. On top of that apparently he wasn't acting very normal either. I'm not excusing the dude, he deserves to be executed but it's not too hard to see how he might have gotten to that point.

[California Joe]

^That was what I was getting at. Not 2nd hand PTSD, but a warped view of the war effort. Regular civilian Psychiatrists listen to people with eating disorders and cheating spouses. This guy listen to the detailed and probably brutal nightmares of returning soldiers day after day after day.

He obviously was scared sh*tless of even being there, he was already in full victim mode with his constant complaints about anti Muslim sentiments etc even though his attitude probably provoked them.

So it sounds to me that his training and his understanding of psychiatry did nothing to help him with his own personal demons so he retreated to his religion. Then he combined that religion with the radicalized ramblings of clerics on the internet and the stories of death and destruction in the "homeland" and arrived at his conclusion.

Now you can claim that it's because of his Muslim faith or you can look at it objectively and see that he used that faith to justify his own failings as a doctor and a soldier and a man. If some 4th generation American Irish Catholic started freaking the f*ck out and claiming he was the Archangel Michael whilst shooting people they would just say the guy went mental. Period.

[Connaught Ranger]

yep, this thread will probably get locked, suspensions thrown around, because its so frowned upon, to call any group of people on their problems

only other social example I can think of off the top of my head...

You cant pinpoint blacks for having problems with education, crime and children out of wedlock, even though its true, the problem will never be fixed when people are to cowardly to even identify it

Here we have a worldwide parallel to that example, only thousands of lives have been lost. Islam has a propensity above other religions for violence. PERIOD

yet its called the "religion of peace"

Its history is ignored, the perpetrators are publicly denounced and Muslim speakers question their faith as Muslims. All point towards blaming the individual and clearing the name of Islam. Yet if you study the Koran, study history, if a person takes the time to educate themselves, this is an all too repetitive pattern. The reasons have changed slightly over centuries but the core of violence remains the same, and the blood spilt is still the same color.

In my opinion, religions evolve, Christianity certainly has, to a point of slowly dissolving as people look to education and material lives in the Western world. Without meriting the pros or cons of that, it is happening is it not? Islam is several hundred years behind, just as it is several hundred years younger. The society that breeds it is also behind. One difference again with Islam and Christianity is that one holy book DOES openly call for violence against all non-_______. while one holy book does not. The Koran not only calls for but glorifies violence against all non believers. Noone can say I'm pulling this out of thin air, nor am I pulling it out of context.

I have no idea what most Muslims think of these verses, I would think most are like modern Christians, who have not, and probably never will read their holy book. But the "extremists" who repeatedly spill blood in the name of Allah, do read the Koran, and feel justified by it.

I think Islam fosters violence, period. It has for centuries. It breeds violence and hatred in every part of the globe its represented. The Middle East, Europe, Asia, Africa and even here in North America.

No I'm not calling all Muslims terrorists, they're obviously not. But disproportionate amount sure do rise from your ranks.

Something I should have said earlier

Everyone who lives in the US probably knows at least one "holy roller", Christians who are constantly trying to spread the word, inviting everyone to bible study, frowning on most of todays pop culture, tucking in their shirt, saying darn and oh my, etc etc. Thats about as extreme as Christians seem to get these days. Muslims who give their life completely to the religion however, seem to take quite a different turn.



I feel like most Western Muslims either don't truly read the Koran just like most Christians don't read the Bible, OR, they dismiss the verses calling for violence as a metaphor for something else, or as something abrogated. This guy may very well have taken it all seriously.

So you managed to have a rant against Afro-Americans and Muslims in your post, :roll: you are one narrow-minded bigot sonny. The Klan must be proud of you.p-)

Connaught Ranger.

[Hollis]

What seems to have worked for me;

Instead of trying to figure out something that we cannot figure out look at it this way, "Evil people will do evil things, because they are evil. Good people need a reason to do something evil, evil people do not need a reason."

The perp here deserves no empathy, no understanding, no compassion, nothing but a execution.

It wasn't that he was poorly potty trained, his teachers did not give him enough good stars, etc etc ect, he was just evil.

He was a single person who acted according to his own evil nature and murdered and wounded a lot of good people.

The fault was the evil in him, nothing more.


(yeah kind of a over simplification, but it seems to work)

[California Joe]

yep, this thread will probably get locked, suspensions thrown around, because its so frowned upon, to call any group of people on their problems

only other social example I can think of off the top of my head...

You cant pinpoint blacks for having problems with education, crime and children out of wedlock, even though its true, the problem will never be fixed when people are to cowardly to even identify it

Here we have a worldwide parallel to that example, only thousands of lives have been lost. Islam has a propensity above other religions for violence. PERIOD

yet its called the "religion of peace"

I like how 3 or 4 mods are actually posting in this thread and the discourse has been pretty civil overall, and then you come in here prefacing your bullsh*t generalizations with "yep, this thread will probably get locked, suspensions thrown around" as if there's some conspiracy to keep you and your insights quiet. Tighten up.

[Dominique]

I like how 3 or 4 mods are actually posting in this thread and the discourse has been pretty civil overall, and then you come in here prefacing your bullsh*t generalizations with "yep, this thread will probably get locked, suspensions thrown around" as if there's some conspiracy to keep you and your insights quiet. Tighten up.

With a screen name of CantGetRight, did you expect anything less?

[the_13th_redneck]

What seems to have worked for me;

Instead of trying to figure out something that we cannot figure out look at it this way, "Evil people will do evil things, because they are evil. Good people need a reason to do something evil, evil people do not need a reason."

The perp here deserves no empathy, no understanding, no compassion, nothing but a execution.

It wasn't that he was poorly potty trained, his teachers did not give him enough good stars, etc etc ect, he was just evil.

He was a single person who acted according to his own evil nature and murdered and wounded a lot of good people.

The fault was the evil in him, nothing more.


(yeah kind of a over simplification, but it seems to work)

The incident warrants an explanation so that something like this can be prevented in future.
A crime occurred and it needs to be investigated thoroughly because it's not a small one.

[Dominique]

The incident warrants an explanation so that something like this can be prevented in future.
A crime occurred and it needs to be investigated thoroughly because it's not a small one.

A complete investigation will be conducted by both the DoJ, and the DoD, and while they will provide a "matter of fact" analysis of what happened, the only person that can say why he did it, is him. Either way, I really don't five a flying fuk wy he did it, my only question is what does he want for his last meal.

[Hollis]

The incident warrants an explanation so that something like this can be prevented in future.
A crime occurred and it needs to be investigated thoroughly because it's not a small one.


Yep that is how many people think. We do not arrest people until they do something, so prevention is based more on speculation. It will be studied, but until we get a real crystal ball and see into the future acts like this will always happen.

Part of the problem is that a person will think, I am OK, so what caused this person to do this heinous crime? So the person will look at obvious differences. Like a few post here those most obvious differences come into play, but they are wrong. Each person is a individual, even though we have differences that we can define by physical attributes, culture, race, class, education etc etc..... those differences do not necessary mean anything. A fallacy in logic, One can not say that all of the attributes of individual applies to a group, or all of the attributes of a group applies to a individual. The term is equivocate. It is what bigotry and racism is based on, and we all know that is false.

It would neat to be able to prevent things. Look at all of the so-called prevented laws. Some will restrict our individual freedoms (constitutionally), some create a new set of injustice and victimization, simply said, they fail in what they were desired to do.

This is a topic that has been heatedly debated for a long time, terms like profiling comes to mind. So far there has not been a solution to this desire to be able to reach into the future and to prevent such a horrible act from occurring until the perp acts.


BTW DOM said it much better than I and with much fewer words........

[Dominique]

Seriously, I wish the "Major" a speedy recovery, for no other reason than to speed his time to time Courts Martial. After which, a speedy execution. If I had my way, it would be done in public, in front of the Ft. Hood Post HQ building. Every unit on Ft. Hood would be required to attended. The worthless excuse for a human, would be paraded past the massed formation. The Post Commander, would then read his his death warrant, he'd then be stripped of his rank, have his uniform forcibly removed, and then hung by his neck until dead, right next to the flag pole. The formation would then be dismissed, and his sorry as would then be buried in a grave with a headstone that read, "Here lies a coward and traitor who betrayed his country, his brothers, and the oaths he had sworn. A disgrace to his family, country and sworn profession, may God have mercy on his soul."

[KoTeMoRe]

Seriously, I wish the "Major" a speedy recovery, for no other reason than to speed his time to time Courts Martial. After which, a speedy execution. If I had my way, it would be done in public, in front of the Ft. Hood Post HQ building. Every unit on Ft. Hood would be required to attended. The worthless excuse for a human, would be paraded past the massed formation. The Post Commander, would then read his his death warrant, he'd then be stripped of his rank, have his uniform forcibly removed, and then hung by his neck until dead, right next to the flag pole. The formation would then be dismissed, and his sorry as would then be buried in a grave with a headstone that read, "Here lies a coward and traitor who betrayed his country, his brothers, and the oaths he had sworn. A disgrace to his family, country and sworn profession, may God have mercy on his soul."


Does the US military judicial system allows for "infamating" punishment? Because that's what you're asking for. I'm ok with that.

[Soldat_Américain]

I'd have to check but I think in the military a firing squad is still good to go, don't know about hanging, Moriarti or Dom should know right off the bat though.

[CantGetRight]

So you managed to have a rant against Afro-Americans and Muslims in your post, :roll: you are one narrow-minded bigot sonny. The Klan must be proud of you.p-)

Connaught Ranger.

Did I say anything unreasonable or untrue? It is what it is, obvious facts are there staring you in the face. Like I said the problems are left unsolved because people are too cowardly to address them. Should I have included a feel good paragraph talking about how many Muslims and blacks I know and how awesome they are? How about nothing I said in there was racist at all, I judge people on a individual basis. But, just as most serial killers are white, most rappers are black, most violent extremists are Muslim.

Seems the world is bred to ignore these things for fear of being called, well, what you just called me. Way to wave the mighty flag of political correctness

[the_13th_redneck]

I'd have to check but I think in the military a firing squad is still good to go, don't know about hanging, Moriarti or Dom should know right off the bat though.

Firing squad would be too honorable.

[Connaught Ranger]

Did I say anything unreasonable or untrue? It is what it is, obvious facts are there staring you in the face. Like I said the problems are left unsolved because people are too cowardly to address them. Should I have included a feel good paragraph talking about how many Muslims and blacks I know and how awesome they are? How about nothing I said in there was racist at all, I judge people on a individual basis. But, just as most serial killers are white, most rappers are black, most violent extremists are Muslim.

Seems the world is bred to ignore these things for fear of being called, well, what you just called me. Way to wave the mighty flag of political correctness

Yes you did. you bigot:bash: W.T.F. has children out of wedlock got to do with anything, plenty of Caucasian kids (that's white to you) are born out of wedlock (i.e. in other words Bastards.) even W.A.S.P.S.

You talk about breeding, :roll: when its obvious to a blind man you lack any such thing.

Who appointed you to your position where you can paint everybody with the same brush.

So much for your obvious facts :roll:

As for your comments about the religion Islam, being backward and relatively young. . :cantbeli:

there are plenty of examples of Christianity being the aggressor in warfare, and Christians killing others even in today's modern world because they do not follow the same line of religious thinking. (Africa, Lebanon, Serbia, N.Ireland to name but a few).

Its idiots with your mindset that are the root cause of most of the problems in the world today.

Connaught Ranger.

[CantGetRight]

Yes you did. you bigot:bash: W.T.F. has children out of wedlock got to do with anything, plenty of Caucasian kids (that's white to you) are born out of wedlock (i.e. in other words Bastards.) even W.A.S.P.S.

Connaught Ranger.

I brought the problems with the black community because those problems are left to fester and continue because noone wants to identify a problem within a racial, ethnic or religious community for fear of being called a racist. Violence stemming from Islam seems to be treated the same way. Lets blame it on something else, lets tip toe around it, lets not in any way try to logically look for and at the source, and fix it.

Crime Rates
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Birth Rates
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18.htm

Education
http://www.blackexcel.org/06-sat-act-scores-by-race-ethnicity.htm




As for your comments about the religion Islam, being backward and relatively young. . :cantbeli:
Connaught Ranger.

Really now, see in the world I live in, Islam began to grow 700 years after Christianity, seems to me that it is younger. I also mentioned an idea of religions and society's evolving, well, they're religion and arguably society is also behind. Honor killings, beatings, death sentences, religious fanatics, global rage at the slightest of perceived insults......doesn't seem like a bastion of modern progress to me.



there are plenty of examples of Christianity being the aggressor in warfare, and Christians killing others even in today's modern world because they do not follow the same line of religious thinking. (Africa, Lebanon, Serbia, N.Ireland to name but a few).
Connaught Ranger.

In most of those cases, violence was answered with violence, now who spilled whose blood first I'm pretty sure your backwards on. Sounds to me like you just named every modern religious conflict where Christians are involved, without looking at how or why.

I'm not even going to get into historical examples, just look at the spread of Islam, the Crusades were a response.



Its idiots with your mindset that are the root cause of most of the problems in the world today.

Connaught Ranger.

And I would argue its people who choose to be willfully ignorant. The world is not as sunny as we all would like it to be.

also note that I have made no personal attacks on you, I CAN tolerate people who are or think differently than me. You haven't quite shown the same courtesy.

[IraGlacialis]

The perp here deserves no empathy, no understanding, no compassion, nothing but a execution.
I'd agree that he deserves no empathy nor compassion. However, we should try to understand the reasoning behind this to possibly look for similar warning signs in others.

To simply dismiss this as "he was just another Muslim terrorist" and evil seems to skirt the question. Those points may be, and probably are (in the textbook sense for the former and action for the latter), true but there should be more investigation to delve behind this.
I'm also with CJ on this. The guy was incompetant and going gradually ****nuts. The more crazy he got, the more he wrapped himself in a Muslim identity and got defensive/outrageous about it.
However, maybe the craziness is just a ploy. What seems to be known is that he was going to be depolyed and didn't like that, and that's where the vitriol really began. The idea being that he would be shunted to a desk job or something and not deployed if he was shown to be nutty. If that was the reason, there are plenty of ways to get out of things instead of smearing Muslims everywhere with his antics before doing such a low action.

Okay, the guy was just evil.

[Rugal09]

Somewhere along the line something happened to the major that made him crack. It's one thing where you start to question the meaningless of your countries fight but it's another where you suddenly espouse extremist ideology and essentially join the enemies side. This is what needs explanation.

One argument is that he was a victim of racism/prejudice which engendered hatred but many men and in women in uniform have suffered all sorts of discrimination and nobody cracked to the point where they turned against their own fellow comrades. They used legal recourse to address their complaints. African Americans were heavily and officially discriminated in the armed services until the Civil Rights Act but nowhere do you hear of African American soldiers going berserk and killing their fellow soldiers. The same goes for Japanese Americans soldiers who served in WW2. Both groups

I am not at all demonizing an entire religion for the actions of a few but what is worriesome is that these people find comfort in using religion to justify their actions; and we're talking about an American born, American educated person here. Obviously this is not confined to Islam exclusively; there are plenty of religious extremists everywhere but Islam is a global religion with global reach and global audience. What is dangerous is the celebration of martyrdom(again not solely an Islamic thing; Christianity has the same idea but it isn't exactly a popular idea). Islam teaches about the preservation of life, but extremist Islam rejoices in martyrdom especially if it's in Islam's interests. Call it psy ops, call it propaganda, call it whatever you want but it is a dangerous element and something must be done about it.

your thoughts?

[IraGlacialis]

One argument is that he was a victim of racism/prejudice which engendered hatred but many men and in women in uniform have suffered all sorts of discrimination and nobody cracked to the point where they turned against their own fellow comrades. They used legal recourse to address their complaints. African Americans were heavily and officially discriminated in the armed services until the Civil Rights Act but nowhere do you hear of African American soldiers going berserk and killing their fellow soldiers. The same goes for Japanese Americans soldiers who served in WW2.To add to that, he is definitely not the only Muslim there (there is probably a good portion that is foreign-born as well), and many have been deployed. Despite some possible personal political feelings about the wars or how Muslims are perceived in the US, 98% probably are not acting nutty or crying discrimination like him.

If anything, he created a hostile environment for Muslims even before the shooting.


I am not at all demonizing an entire religion for the actions of a few but what is worriesome is that these people find comfort in using religion to justify their actions; and we're talking about an American born, American educated person here. Obviously this is not confined to Islam exclusively; there are plenty of religious extremists everywhere but Islam is a global religion with global reach and global audience. What is dangerous is the celebration of martyrdom(again not solely an Islamic thing; Christianity has the same idea but it isn't exactly a popular idea). Islam teaches about the preservation of life, but extremist Islam rejoices in martyrdom especially if it's in Islam's interests. Call it psy ops, call it propaganda, call it whatever you want but it is a dangerous element and something must be done about it. Such reformation is happening now to make it more hostile to function as an extremist. However, there are a few points that people really don't like to hear. One is that, of course, such reformation only can happen from within. Two, that reformation can really only happen when a good chunk of the Muslim population isn't living in ****, eating ****, and covered ****. And three, the most hard to swallow, that such things take a long time, blood, and effort.

[KoTeMoRe]

Firing squad would be too honorable.

Firing Squad has always been the soldier's death. Hanging is seen as the traitor's death.

[PeterG]

I think muslims are more vulnerable to melting down in this manner, than others. Something to do with guilt for not standing shoulder to shoulder with their muslim brothers - but actually belonging to the crusader army that is waging war in the muslim world.. There is a deep sense of guilt here, of betraying their own. From what i read, there is supposed to be a very strong feeling of solidarity and religious duty towards other muslims. I think something like this is what happened to this gunman. The guilt and shame seems to have made him mentally ill in the end. All the signs were there - it is remarkable that no one reacted earlier.

[Connaught Ranger]

I brought the problems with the black community because those problems are left to fester and continue because noone wants to identify a problem within a racial, ethnic or religious community for fear of being called a racist. Violence stemming from Islam seems to be treated the same way. Lets blame it on something else, lets tip toe around it, lets not in any way try to logically look for and at the source, and fix it.

Crime Rates
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Birth Rates
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18.htm

Education
http://www.blackexcel.org/06-sat-act-scores-by-race-ethnicity.htm



Nothing what so ever to do with the tragic events at Fort Hood so totally Irrelevant. But not surprising when one see the comment you posted in the
Miss England Strong thread:-


I dont get having people who are obviously of a different ethnic origin, represent a country



And Bigots don't rate very high in my book.

Connaught Ranger.

[gaijinsamurai]

Seriously, I wish the "Major" a speedy recovery, for no other reason than to speed his time to time Courts Martial. After which, a speedy execution. If I had my way, it would be done in public, in front of the Ft. Hood Post HQ building. Every unit on Ft. Hood would be required to attended. The worthless excuse for a human, would be paraded past the massed formation. The Post Commander, would then read his his death warrant, he'd then be stripped of his rank, have his uniform forcibly removed, and then hung by his neck until dead, right next to the flag pole. The formation would then be dismissed, and his sorry as would then be buried in a grave with a headstone that read, "Here lies a coward and traitor who betrayed his country, his brothers, and the oaths he had sworn. A disgrace to his family, country and sworn profession, may God have mercy on his soul."

x2. I agree, Dom.

[Creampuff]

And Bigots don't rate very high in my book.

Connaught Ranger.

It's Archie Bunker bro.

[CantGetRight]

And Bigots don't rate very high in my book.

Connaught Ranger.

WOW, how serious people take things, its like your looking to be offended. I dont think of a white girl when I think Japan, and I dont think of a black girl when I think of the UK. sue me

political correctness ftl

I explained already, I mentioned the black issues because they are ignored in the same way radical Islam is, because people are afraid of being called a racist. Issues like this wont be solved because noone seems to have the balls to pinpoint the problem for fear of hawks like you.

"I brought the problems with the black community because those problems are left to fester and continue because noone wants to identify a problem within a racial, ethnic or religious community for fear of being called a racist. Violence stemming from Islam seems to be treated the same way. Lets blame it on something else, lets tip toe around it, lets not in any way try to logically look for and at the source, and fix it."

You could of responded to my thoughts with reason, instead you wave your arms and yell bigot. On the rules page hood wrote "The first one to start using profanity or insults in an argument loses. If you can't win with intelligence and knowledge, then these forums are the wrong place for you."

And if others feel I'm out of line, I'm sorry, I honestly dont feel any ill will towards any group of people, just because of color or religion. But I do and will judge people based on their actions. Actions thundered quite loudly several days ago, and sadly, it will again. Today, someone, somewhere died by someone elses hands in the name of Allah, its enough. I dont know what can be done, but I know theres a problem. Of the thousands of lives lost since September 11 in terrorist actions around the globe, theres usually a common factor, Islam. One would have to be a complete idiot, or a politically correct zombie to miss it. So should we just accept these occasional deaths as a fact of life? Continue to ignore the source of these incidents?

This was going civilly, I hate that my comments were taken the way they were instead of looked at intelligently, but I stand by my points.

[Dominique]

The more I hear about the "Major", the more I'm coming to the conclusion that he had no business in a uniform, much less with a commission or working in the medical profession. He was a piss poor performer, who basically was having problems coping with life.

Another thing that's pissing me off is that this guy sent up all sorts of red flags, yet no on in his COC stepped in to intervene. Instead, they transferred him to another installation, so he'd be someone else's problem. If the investigation shows that people knew he was a nut job, and did nothing about it, they're guilty of dereliction of duty, and need to be held accountable for not handling the situation.

[gaijinsamurai]

Chicago Mayor Daley Blames Fort Hood On America’s Love Of Guns!by Andrew Marcus
On Monday, Chicago Mayor Daley blamed the Ft. Hood Jihad Massacre on America’s love of guns!

“Unfortunately, America loves Guns. We love guns to a point where that uh we see devastation on a daily basis. You don’t blame a group.”



The Mayor is using a straw-man argument that conveniently provides him with an opportunity to politicize the terrorist attack as part and parcel with America’s love of guns.

Mayor Daley, and other politicians, like to blame gun violence on the guns themselves because that is so much easier than admitting any inconvenient (politically incorrect) truths which might be revealed if they were to place blame where it belongs.

Kids murdering each other in the inner city? That’s because of guns, not the War On Drugs which turns poor children into black market drug distributing gang members.


Islamists murdering people while shouting Allah Akbar? That’s because of guns, not the Jihad being perpetrated globally against all so called “infidels”.

They blame guns because guns don’t vote.

Taking Mayor Daley at face value for a moment, is he seriously arguing for increased gun control on a military base? If there had been more guns around, this ticking Jihad bomb could have been put down a lot faster than he was.


Click image to view video

With no pogrom backlash after 9/11, no pogrom backlash after Bali, no pogrom backlash after Madrid, no pogrom backlash after London, no pogrom backlash after Mumbai, no backlash after countless other Jihad attacks, why would there be any reason to believe the reaction would be any different in this case? As we have written before, the West has already passed this particular civility test.


Link:

http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/10/chicago-mayor-daley-blames-fort-hood-on-americas-love-of-guns/

[KoTeMoRe]

It was about time p-).

[Polygon]

The more I hear about the "Major", the more I'm coming to the conclusion that he had no business in a uniform, much less with a commission or working in the medical profession. He was a piss poor performer, who basically was having problems coping with life.

Another thing that's pissing me off is that this guy sent up all sorts of red flags, yet no on in his COC stepped in to intervene. Instead, they transferred him to another installation, so he'd be someone else's problem. If the investigation shows that people knew he was a nut job, and did nothing about it, they're guilty of dereliction of duty, and need to be held accountable for not handling the situation.

Yeah, sounds like they handled him with kid gloves for the most part.

[Connaught Ranger]

WOW, how serious people take things, its like your looking to be offended. I dont think of a white girl when I think Japan, and I dont think of a black girl when I think of the UK. sue me

political correctness ftl

More off topic crap!

I explained already, I mentioned the black issues because they are ignored in the same way radical Islam is, because people are afraid of being called a racist. Issues like this wont be solved because noone seems to have the balls to pinpoint the problem for fear of hawks like you.

Since when was Islam a race?? :roll:

"I brought the problems with the black community because those problems are left to fester and continue because noone wants to identify a problem within a racial, ethnic or religious community for fear of being called a racist. Violence stemming from Islam seems to be treated the same way. Lets blame it on something else, lets tip toe around it, lets not in any way try to logically look for and at the source, and fix it."

Blah! Blah!

You could of responded to my thoughts with reason, instead you wave your arms and yell bigot. On the rules page hood wrote "The first one to start using profanity or insults in an argument loses. If you can't win with intelligence and knowledge, then these forums are the wrong place for you."

I believe there are rules with regards Racist postings, your bringing reference to Afro-Americans / Coloreds / out of wedlock into a thread about the shootings at Fort Hood is way off topic, and when you get checked on it you try to worm your way out by crying "not fair boo - hoo!"

And if others feel I'm out of line, I'm sorry, I honestly dont feel any ill will towards any group of people, just because of color or religion. But I do and will judge people based on their actions.

(Yeah like having a child out of wed-lock) :roll: Which in itself is not again any law.

Actions thundered quite loudly several days ago, and sadly, it will again.

Today, someone, somewhere died by someone elses hands in the name of Allah, its enough. I dont know what can be done, but I know theres a problem.

Of the thousands of lives lost since September 11 in terrorist actions around the globe, theres usually a common factor, Islam.

One would have to be a complete idiot, or a politically correct zombie to miss it. So should we just accept these occasional deaths as a fact of life? Continue to ignore the source of these incidents?

This was going civilly, I hate that my comments were taken the way they were instead of looked at intelligently, but I stand by my points.

Your comments were viewed, and the content understood fine.

You are still a bigot and no amount of "explanation" will suffice.

Connaught Ranger.

[Dan2004]

Chicago Mayor Daley Blames Fort Hood On America’s Love Of Guns!by Andrew Marcus
On Monday, Chicago Mayor Daley blamed the Ft. Hood Jihad Massacre on America’s love of guns!

“Unfortunately, America loves Guns. We love guns to a point where that uh we see devastation on a daily basis. You don’t blame a group.”



The Mayor is using a straw-man argument that conveniently provides him with an opportunity to politicize the terrorist attack as part and parcel with America’s love of guns.

Mayor Daley, and other politicians, like to blame gun violence on the guns themselves because that is so much easier than admitting any inconvenient (politically incorrect) truths which might be revealed if they were to place blame where it belongs.

Kids murdering each other in the inner city? That’s because of guns, not the War On Drugs which turns poor children into black market drug distributing gang members.


Islamists murdering people while shouting Allah Akbar? That’s because of guns, not the Jihad being perpetrated globally against all so called “infidels”.

They blame guns because guns don’t vote.

Taking Mayor Daley at face value for a moment, is he seriously arguing for increased gun control on a military base? If there had been more guns around, this ticking Jihad bomb could have been put down a lot faster than he was.


Click image to view video

With no pogrom backlash after 9/11, no pogrom backlash after Bali, no pogrom backlash after Madrid, no pogrom backlash after London, no pogrom backlash after Mumbai, no backlash after countless other Jihad attacks, why would there be any reason to believe the reaction would be any different in this case? As we have written before, the West has already passed this particular civility test.


Link:

http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/10/chicago-mayor-daley-blames-fort-hood-on-americas-love-of-guns/

Daley is a tool.

[Geezah]

Chicago Mayor Daley Blames Fort Hood On America’s Love Of Guns!by Andrew Marcus
On Monday, Chicago Mayor Daley blamed the Ft. Hood Jihad Massacre on America’s love of guns!

“Unfortunately, America loves Guns. We love guns to a point where that uh we see devastation on a daily basis. You don’t blame a group.”



The Mayor is using a straw-man argument that conveniently provides him with an opportunity to politicize the terrorist attack as part and parcel with America’s love of guns.

Mayor Daley, and other politicians, like to blame gun violence on the guns themselves because that is so much easier than admitting any inconvenient (politically incorrect) truths which might be revealed if they were to place blame where it belongs.

Kids murdering each other in the inner city? That’s because of guns, not the War On Drugs which turns poor children into black market drug distributing gang members.


Islamists murdering people while shouting Allah Akbar? That’s because of guns, not the Jihad being perpetrated globally against all so called “infidels”.

They blame guns because guns don’t vote.

Taking Mayor Daley at face value for a moment, is he seriously arguing for increased gun control on a military base? If there had been more guns around, this ticking Jihad bomb could have been put down a lot faster than he was.


Click image to view video

With no pogrom backlash after 9/11, no pogrom backlash after Bali, no pogrom backlash after Madrid, no pogrom backlash after London, no pogrom backlash after Mumbai, no backlash after countless other Jihad attacks, why would there be any reason to believe the reaction would be any different in this case? As we have written before, the West has already passed this particular civility test.


Link:

http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/10/chicago-mayor-daley-blames-fort-hood-on-americas-love-of-guns/

I saw that story posted on Drudge last night.

I'm actually suprised they haven't picked up on the fact a 57 was used.

Mayor Daley wants to blame America's love of guns but not to blame a group, which America's gun owners would be a pretty large group if you ask me.....

[gaijinsamurai]

By the way, Daley is one of those who jumped on the "reparations for African-Americans" bandwagon.

He's either a total idiot or a shameless politician who does what he thinks he has to do to get his consituents to vote for him.

Or perhaps a little of both.

[IraGlacialis]

Does this mean that we can blame corruption in Chicago politics on guns as well?

Daley is such a opportunistic douchebag, but it was a matter of time before the issue of guns came up from the tragedy, as shameless as that move is.

[Royal]

I brought the problems with the black community blah blah

Which part of Joe's instruction to tighten up are you struggling with numnuts?

Being a Brit this is none of my business, but I hope he recovers to stand court martial and then swings.

I also hope that large parts of his CoC recieve considerably more than just an interview without coffee for their deriliction of duty.

Finally, to answer Geezah's original post, yes there are a few (not enough) serving Muslims in the British military. I had the pleasure of working closely with only three - but I trusted all with my life.

[Dominique]

The more I learn about this turds background, the more pissed I get at his CoC. The CIA, the FBI, Army CI, and his CoC all were watching this guy, he was a ticking timebomb, and yet not a single person bothered to step in. Why? Why the hell was he promoted to major? Why was he allowed to continue in his training program? Why was he "counseling" wounded and distraught troops. Why in the hell would anyone think he should have been sent on deployment? And how much do you want to bet that no one will be held accountable for their turning a blind eye to the major and just hoping he'd go away.

[martinexsquaddie]

seems trying to be PC.
somebody unwilling to see rather a lot of cash paid out for training go to waste.
COC thinking somebody wandering around in a dish dash was normal.
all missed.

[Dominique]

seems trying to be PC.
somebody unwilling to see rather a lot of cash paid out for training go to waste.
COC thinking somebody wandering around in a dish dash was normal.
all missed.

I could give flying fvck about his dress, while off duty, as that's his business, what I have serious problem with, were his anti-American statements, him trying to contact extremist groups, and all his other activities. How the hell was this guy on the FBI, CID, and Army CI watch lists, and still managed to get promoted, and scheduled for a deployment. I'd really like to know how his co-workers and superiors are going to explain this to investigators.

[Arnie100]

Hasan's superiors were probably hoping he'd resign and that'd be the end of it.

[Soldat_Américain]

The Colonel who runs Darnell Army Medical center said she was surprised and that he adapted well. So all the people around him didn't do their jobs and therefore if this is done correctly some people will be charged with dereliction of duty. Everything that he did is one him, but the fact that all these "signs" threw up "red flags" tell me it's a mixture of bull**** and people failing to do their jobs.

[JJC]

Are there same hiring and disciplinary standards for officers in medical fields as in traditional roles? It sounds like his superiors (who were what colonel or above doctors in charge of a clinic??) weren't swift. There is no way he would have lasted if he were some field commander. When the FBI initially refused to consider potential terror connections, I said to myself, with the given administration such a tone at the Justice Dept. wouldn't be surprising, but the military is different.

[Dominique]

Hasan's superiors were probably hoping he'd resign and that'd be the end of it.

Which is exactly the reason some of them need to be held accountable. As his superior officers, they had a responsibility to step in, and not ignore the problem hoping it would go away. They get paid to make tuff, and or unpopular decisions, not stick their heads in the sand and pretend it will go away.

[Arnie100]

Which is exactly the reason some of them need to be held accountable.

Agree with you on that, Dominique!!

[Dominique]

Agree with you on that, Dominique!!

The sad part is there will be a lot of hand wringing and gnashing of teeth, then the Army will commission a "working group", to conduct a "lessons learned" study, it will issue a report condemning his actions, order units to conduct some type of crisis intervention training for soldiers (and I guarantee the program will be geared toward junior enlisted troops, and NCOs), but none of the people actually involved (senior level officers), will get more than a slap on the wrist (a letter of reprimand will be placed in their file, or they'll get transferred to a new unit).

[SilentType]

They were certainly eager to push their problems down the road. Despite the justifications provided it is clear they were hoping that Fort Hood would "handle" him better than they could.

The man said some things that clearly disturbed his fellow soldiers and coworkers. His disturbing behavior was discussed at multiple meetings. One would think at the very least the feelings of unease he was creating should have been discussed with him in an adult and straight forward manner. It appears his job performance was also suffering from his disjointed thinking and odd behavior as well. All of these things should have been discussed with him in private in confidence while probing to decide whether he in fact presented a danger to himself and to others.

A guy would hope that trained counselors would do that, but apparently they didn't feel like it for whatever excuse they come up with.

[Dominique]

They were certainly eager to push their problems down the road. Despite the justifications provided it is clear they were hoping that Fort Hood would "handle" him better than they could.

The man said some things that clearly disturbed his fellow soldiers and coworkers. His disturbing behavior was discussed at multiple meetings. One would think at the very least the feelings of unease he was creating should have been discussed with him in an adult and straight forward manner. It appears his job performance was also suffering from his disjointed thinking and odd behavior as well. All of these things should have been discussed with him in private in confidence while probing to decide whether he in fact presented a danger to himself and to others.

A guy would hope that trained counselors would do that, but apparently they didn't feel like it for whatever excuse they come up with.

"One would think at the very least the feelings of unease he was creating should have been discussed with him in an adult and straight forward manner."

This guy was a soldier, he's not working at the local Walmart. His superiors should have put foot to ass, and hammered him when he started spouting off Anti-American rhetoric, and after the Army was informed by both the FBI and CIA that this turd was making overt attempts to contact extremists groups, there's no way in hell he should have been promoted. the simple fact is his CoC fvcked up. And they know it.

[SilentType]

"One would think at the very least the feelings of unease he was creating should have been discussed with him in an adult and straight forward manner."

This guy was a soldier, he's not working at the local Walmart. His superiors should have put foot to ass, and hammered him when he started spouting off Anti-American rhetoric, and after the Army was informed by both the FBI and CIA that this turd was making overt attempts to contact extremists groups, there's no way in hell he should have been promoted. the simple fact is his CoC fvcked up. And they know it.

That's why I said "...at the very least...."

[11 Bravo]

"One would think at the very least the feelings of unease he was creating should have been discussed with him in an adult and straight forward manner."

This guy was a soldier, he's not working at the local Walmart. His superiors should have put foot to ass, and hammered him when he started spouting off Anti-American rhetoric, and after the Army was informed by both the FBI and CIA that this turd was making overt attempts to contact extremists groups, there's no way in hell he should have been promoted. the simple fact is his CoC fvcked up. And they know it.

One of the main problems in this whole hideous mess of a human douchebag is that because he was a mooslim his superiors all felt threatened with the retaliation of being accused of racial/religious hate.The more that comes out the more this keeps coming to the front. Passing the buck to get rid of that turd was the rank and files way of saving their careers due to the PC poisin that pervades society in the west right down to the military.
The wanna be went so far as to have business cards printed out with SOA embossed on them.... it would have been patently obvious to anyone with balls this **** for brains nutcase had to go.

[Ayub -al -Somal]

He's brought shame on us as far as I am concerned but I take comfort in the fact that Allah's has denied him the right to claim dying for Him .

[Connaught Ranger]

One of the main problems in this whole hideous mess of a human douchebag is that because he was a mooslim his superiors all felt threatened with the retaliation of being accused of racial/religious hate.The more that comes out the more this keeps coming to the front. Passing the buck to get rid of that turd was the rank and files way of saving their careers due to the PC poisin that pervades society in the west right down to the military.
The wanna be went so far as to have business cards printed out with SOA embossed on them.... it would have been patently obvious to anyone with balls this **** for brains nutcase had to go.

Would you care to post proof of that (in bold) or is it your learned opinion? :roll:

[gazell]

Would you care to post proof of that (in bold) or is it your learned opinion? :roll:

It's keeping you busy, it does.:lol:

[11 Bravo]

Would you care to post proof of that (in bold) or is it your learned opinion? :roll:

Listen... listen and learn. Every snippet of info coming out showers us with the very details of this peice of craps' downward spiral to this point. But you are not in the USA to hear it day in day out so you get the short end of the stick and think all is fuzzy warm and flowers on your end of the stick. It's a bit more than this physcho being a phsycho... his relgious vomit made him more dangerous than his mental instability did alone. Those two tilt factors combined sadly made him douchebag of the year.
Oh but hell I'll let all those out there just think this whole mess of human debris is nothing related to his religious douchebaggery and society made him do it. Hell I feel better now, do you ?.

[Connaught Ranger]

It's keeping you busy, it does.:lol:

Does that mean any thing in real English?:roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

Listen... listen and learn. Every snippet of info coming out showers us with the very details of this peice of craps' downward spiral to this point. But you are not in the USA to hear it day in day out so you get the short end of the stick and think all is fuzzy warm and flowers on your end of the stick. It's a bit more than this physcho being a phsycho... his relgious vomit made him more dangerous than his mental instability did alone. Those two tilt factors combined sadly made him douchebag of the year.
Oh but hell I'll let all those out there just think this whole mess of human debris is nothing related to his religious douchebaggery and society made him do it. Hell I feel better now, do you ?.

Another meaningless, uncomprehending rant!

You still have not backed up your claims with regards his superiors,

why is that I wonder?:roll:

[the_13th_redneck]

Making any accusation that can be interpreted as contrary to Equal Opportunity could be a surefire career ender.

[Connaught Ranger]

Well let's see... if you happen to listen to alot of radio like I do then you would hear the incessant leaks of the mooslims real deal w/regards to his superiors disatisfaction with his religious vomit slant.
Sit in your rose tinted glass room and think he's just a simple nutjub and ignore the religious evil that pushed him over the edge , I don't.

Radio talk show chit chat :cantbeli:

You are still not posting any evidence of your claims! :roll:

Your rants against Muslims would be more appropriate on some White Power Website and not MP.net Forum.

Connaught Ranger.

[Geezah]

Radio talk show chit chat :cantbeli:

You are still not posting any evidence of your claims! :roll:

Your rants against Muslims would be more appropriate on some White Power Website and not MP.net Forum.

Connaught Ranger.

The few I have spoken to on this agree that his advancement through the ranks had more to do with his religion rather than his abilities.
I would agree that this is the case due to what we are hearing about him every day. This is not to say that there are plenty of Muslims in the US Army that are capable of doing the job, and doing it well, but it does have to be taken into consideration that this a-hole made it into his position for a reason other than being good at his job.

[Connaught Ranger]

The few I have spoken to on this agree that his advancement through the ranks had more to do with his religion rather than his abilities.
I would agree that this is the case due to what we are hearing about him every day. This is not to say that there are plenty of Muslims in the US Army that are capable of doing the job, and doing it well, but it does have to be taken into consideration that this a-hole made it into his position for a reason other than being good at his job.

More speculation,

I asked 11 Bravo for proof or source of claims,

seems nobody can provide anything concrete.

[Bia]

Just my opinion for any race American...

Civilians... act radical and spout anti American gaga all you like, as a civilian acting within the law... feel free.

Military... abide an oath of loyalty and exercise patriotism or get the FuKc out of our Military.

[11 Bravo]

Originally Posted by 11 Bravo
Well let's see... if you happen to listen to alot of radio like I do then you would hear the incessant leaks of the mooslims real deal w/regards to his superiors disatisfaction with his religious vomit slant.
Sit in your rose tinted glass room and think he's just a simple nutjub and ignore the religious evil that pushed him over the edge , I don't.


Dang ; somehow my post got censored... jeez did I offend a mooslim or something ?.
Connie , in short you want written proof that does not yet exhist for us to thumb through.. but the writing is all over the wall so to speak.The human debris is what he is and did what he did due to his religious vomit more so than his lack of mental faculties.
I suggestyou do a good searhch through even NPR broadcasts and you'll find a wad of this data you seem to find offensive.Sometimes the truth hurts eh... this is one of those times.

[Geezah]

More speculation,

I asked 11 Bravo for proof or source of claims,

seems nobody can provide anything concrete.

Maybe you need to go back and start reading this thread from the start.

The guy did a piss poor job, he was drawing attention to himself over 6mths ago, due to his somewhat radical postings, yet nothing had been done about it.

Now, are you arguing the point due to him not being white, or are you arguing the point that you truly believe this guy was a good guy and has been painted as a bad guy wrongly?
Do you believe that this guy was overlooked only because it was a mistake on the part of the Military or because no-one wanted the PC Brigade breathing down their neck?

[California Joe]

Originally Posted by 11 Bravo
Well let's see... if you happen to listen to alot of radio like I do then you would hear the incessant leaks of the mooslims real deal w/regards to his superiors disatisfaction with his religious vomit slant.
Sit in your rose tinted glass room and think he's just a simple nutjub and ignore the religious evil that pushed him over the edge , I don't.


Dang ; somehow my post got censored... jeez did I offend a mooslim or something ?.
Connie , in short you want written proof that does not yet exhist for us to thumb through.. but the writing is all over the wall so to speak.The human debris is what he is and did what he did due to his religious vomit more so than his lack of mental faculties.
I suggestyou do a good searhch through even NPR broadcasts and you'll find a wad of this data you seem to find offensive.Sometimes the truth hurts eh... this is one of those times.

Pretty sure Hollis censored you so he didn't have to infract you for being a simpleton. Maybe you should have figured that out and stopped the generalizing Cletus.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

He did earn a DAOTW award for a reason.

[Ought Six]

I have not yet seen any evidence whatsoever that Hasan was mentally ill, or severely emotionally compromised by 'referred trauma'. I do not think he was any more mentally ill than the Jim Jones cult members that murdered the congressman and his staff in Guiana. I think Hasan was 'self-brainwashed'; glomming onto a violent, radical pseudoIslamic Jihadi philosophy and making it his own, then acting it out. That is a *choice*, not an illness. If I am correct, then he is purely a perp, and not in any sense a victim.

[SilentType]

Until proven otherwise the assumption has to be that the man was acting as part of a terrorist effort. If you're wrong than no more harm, but if you assume that he was "mentally ill" and it turns out he was a part of something bigger other people might be harmed.

I don't get where this fear that we'll harm Muslims out of some rage about a Terrorist killing our soldiers comes from. We have Muslims every month who kill our people in Afghanistan and Iraq. That hasn't lead to some huge violence spree carried about by U.S. citizens against Muslims.

We lost 2,998 people on 9/11 and I didn't see some massive uprising of violence against Muslims in the United States of America.

The fear that a significant group of U.S. citizens are going to do something illegal is completely unjustified and insulting. The fear that somehow others in the military will discriminate when that would be illegal is insulting.

Fear of violence or discrimination is completely unfounded. Worse of all it may cloud common sense.

[California Joe]

Until proven otherwise the assumption has to be that the man was acting as part of a terrorist effort. If you're wrong than no more harm, but if you assume that he was "mentally ill" and it turns out he was a part of something bigger other people might be harmed.

I don't get where this fear that we'll harm Muslims out of some rage about a Terrorist killing our soldiers comes from. We have Muslims every month who kill our people in Afghanistan and Iraq. That hasn't lead to some huge violence spree carried about by U.S. citizens against Muslims.

We lost 2,998 people on 9/11 and I didn't see some massive uprising of violence against Muslims in the United States of America.

The fear that a significant group of U.S. citizens are going to do something illegal is completely unjustified and insulting. The fear that somehow others in the military will discriminate when that would be illegal is insulting.

Fear of violence or discrimination is completely unfounded. Worse of all it may cloud common sense.

Actually you have it completely backwards. Until proven otherwise, he's just an asshole that snapped and used his faith to justify shooting people. You don't think there is a massive ongoing investigation involving military and federal law enforcement?

Maybe the fact that we interned a whole sh*tload of Japanese citzens once upon a time gives people pause when nimrods start acting like the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.

[SilentType]

Actually you have it completely backwards. Until proven otherwise, he's just an asshole that snapped and used his faith to justify shooting people. You don't think there is a massive ongoing investigation involving military and federal law enforcement?

Maybe the fact that we interned a whole sh*tload of Japanese citzens once upon a time gives people pause when nimrods start acting like the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.

I'm suggesting that from a military, intelligence, and law enforcement view yes during the investigation phase it is important to assume the worse and exhaust all possibilities.

It is HIS job to raise the defense of Insanity. NOT the states. Look it up. So you're 110% wrong about the burden of proof of insanity.

Where is anyone suggesting that we intern Muslim citizens like we did the Japanese?

If someone threatens a Muslim or harms a Muslim in this nation without being able to put forward an affirmative defense they can be charged with a crime. How did this guy killing anyone change that?

[HGRazorR]

^^ I don't think CJ's talking about an insanity defense, but murder 1 vs. murder 2

[Connaught Ranger]

Maybe you need to go back and start reading this thread from the start.

The guy did a piss poor job, he was drawing attention to himself over 6mths ago, due to his somewhat radical postings, yet nothing had been done about it.

Now, are you arguing the point due to him not being white, or are you arguing the point that you truly believe this guy was a good guy and has been painted as a bad guy wrongly?
Do you believe that this guy was overlooked only because it was a mistake on the part of the Military or because no-one wanted the PC Brigade breathing down their neck?

I am arguing the point that people need to be able prove, that what they are posting is true and not supposition or hearsay, in other words for the hard of understanding FACTS.

As the person in question (Hasan), is subject to an official murder investigation, which will lead to a criminal trial, then, all the supposition, hearsay, and comments, (offered here with no source or proof to back then up) by those bigots posting crap and insults, is pure meaningless as well as being totally pointless.

Connaught Ranger.

[haze99]

Well, since most everyone here has adopted moral-relativity, I suggest none of you go to www.jihadwatch.org or listen to anything Walid Shoebat has to to say. You won't want to hear it.

[Royal]

Well, since most everyone here has adopted moral-relativity, I suggest none of you go to www.jihadwatch.org or listen to anything Walid Shoebat has to to say. You won't want to hear it.

Nothing like a former loon for getting on his high horse and spouting shyte...

Shoebat's not even credible as an ex-loon.

Terrorist walt is about as close as you can get...