Germany-Based Divisions May Move Stateside

[budanski]

Germany-Based Divisions May Move Stateside
Army Times
August 4, 2003
Amy Svitak and Vince Crawley

The Army quietly is making detailed plans to move its two Germany-based divisions back to the United States as soon as they finish their yearlong Iraq deployments, but defense leaders haven’t given their approval.

While not specifically commenting on the Army moves, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said in an interview that they are part of a worldwide basing review that would be studied by senior leaders in the weeks ahead.

The U.S. 1st Armored Division, currently deployed in Iraq, is slated to return to Wiesbaden, Germany, between February and April 2004, Gen. Jack Keane, acting Army chief of staff, said at a July 23 news conference.

But Pentagon officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, say the division would stay only long enough to pack up and head to the United States.

Likewise, the 1st Infantry Division, now based in Wuerzburg, Germany, would return to U.S. soil after its one-year deployment to Iraq, which begins in March 2004.

The two divisions represent the bulk of the Army’s combat force in Europe. However, the Army plans to station one of its new light-armored Stryker brigades in Germany, possibly in the Grafenwoehr-Vilseck area, where training ranges are available.

In addition, Army officials are looking at Romania and Bulgaria as sites for austere base camps where U.S.-based troops would deploy on six-month rotations.

Room in the heartland?

While no official plan has been announced, Pentagon planners are considering where to make room for the two Germany-based divisions upon their U.S. arrival.

Much of the 1st Infantry Division is expected to return to its traditional stomping grounds at Fort Riley, Kan., where the "Big Red One" division was home-based until unit reshufflings in the 1990s. Riley is home to one brigade of 1st Infantry as well as one brigade of 1st Armored.

Much of the 1st Armored Division likely would be stationed at Fort Lewis, Wash., the Army’s premier training facility for service transformation efforts.

However, the 1st Armored Division might be sent to Fort Riley instead, where it would be designated as the 1st Infantry, a congressional source said.

One official at the Pentagon said the influx of troops from Germany — roughly 40,000 active-duty members plus families — is more than any one or two posts could accommodate.

"They’re looking everywhere" to find possible U.S. homes for elements of the two divisions, the official said.

Regardless, more troops are welcome at Fort Riley, according to Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., a senior member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. "We are aware that the Army is considering Fort Riley as the home of a division flag should the decision to return a division from Europe be made," Roberts said in a prepared statement July 24. "Fort Riley has maintained its deployment infrastructure. It has the training land and no environmental restrictions or encroachment problems."

Rumsfeld, asked about the fate of the two Army divisions in Germany, said their future is tied up in a worldwide basing review that will be the focus of senior leaders.

Until now, the bulk of the basing plans have been developed on the regional level by combatant commanders and their staffs, Rumsfeld said in a July 22 interview at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

A senior-level review group will look at the regional plans and "be wrestling with" how to coordinate them on a global level "in the weeks ahead," he said.

But international basing decisions can’t be made only in Washington, he said.

"Of course, you’ve got the interaction with allies and friends and NATO and Korea and Japan and all of that," Rumsfeld said.

Staff writer Matthew Cox contributed to this report.

[martinexsquaddie]

6 months in Rumaina or Bulgaria really going to improve morale those places are ****holes :lol:
Problem is you can't pack up a division quickly especially if you've got to find somewhere to put it. thats why the British still have a division in germany because theres no where else to put it :lol:

[He219]

Never forget why we were there...

http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesIntlrelationships/June17GDRUprising/StoningTank.jpghttp://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesIntlrelationships/June17GDRUprising/TankPeople.jpg
June 17th, 1953 (http://www.talkingproud.us/International061803.html)



The Group of Soviet Forces in Germany

The westernmost and most formidable concentration of Soviet armed might outside the borders of the Soviet Union is the GSFG. In 1987 this force of about 380,000 men, organized into 20 ground force divisions and one air army and stationed entirely in East Germany, was over twice the size of the NVA.

The importance that the Soviets attach to their position in East Germany is underscored by the disparity in size between the GSFG and the other Soviet groups of forces in Eastern Europe. The Northern Group of Forces in Poland, for instance, comprised three divisions, the Central Group of Forces in Czechoslovakia numbered six divisions, and the Southern Group of Forces in Hungary had four divisions. The other groups totaled slightly more than half the size of the GSFG. The GSFG dominated not only East Germany but also the rest of Eastern Europe, not to mention the image that it projected into Western Europe. In 1987 the GSFG, under the command of General Valerii Aleksandrovich Belikov, had its headquarters in the former Wehrmacht command center in Zossen-Wünsdorf, south of Berlin.

In 1987 the ground forces of the GSFG were organized into five armies, which had been strengthened continually during the 1980s. These forces were fully motorized, equipped with tactical nuclear weapons, and provided with high operational mobility. The ground forces included about 5,000 to 6,000 main battle tanks, the majority of them T-72s. The First Guards Tank Army, headquartered at Dresden, included four tank divisions and one motorized rifle division; the Second Guards Army, at Fürstenberg, had one tank and two motorized rifle divisions; the Eighth Guards Army, at Weimar-Nohra, had one tank and three motorized rifle divisions; the Twentieth Guards Army, at Eberswalde, had three motorized rifle divisions; and the Third Shock Army, at Magdeburg, had four tank divisions and one motorized rifle division. In addition to the necessary artillery units at army and division levels, artillery support was provided by an independent division of rocket troops and artillery--the Thirty-fourth Artillery Division--stationed at Potsdam-Elstal and directly subordinate to the GSFG. A Spetsnaz (see Glossary) company was assigned to each army, and an independent Spetsnaz brigade was stationed in Neuruppin. Air support was provided by the Twenty-fourth Air Army, with headquarters at Wünsdorf. It is considered the best-equipped part of the Soviet air forces. In 1987 about 80 percent of the 1,000 to 2,000 aircraft were potential carriers of nuclear weapons.

The GSFG conducts its own maneuvers and training independently of the NVA. There is a program, however, called Brotherhood-in-Arms, which promotes contacts and cooperation between the East German and Soviet troops. Both the NVA and the GSFG participate in the various joint Warsaw Pact maneuvers and exercises.

Data as of July 1987


Some Background information (http://www.codoh.com/review/revnaimark.html) on Soviet History in Germany

[Shadow]

LOL the US still wants to protect us from the russians?

[Seiyuuki]

LOL the US still wants to protect us from the russians?

:cantbeli: Did you actually read any of these postings?

[He219]

Now you have the French to protect you. It's time to wipe your own butt.... (http://www.comw.org/pda/0110gerdef.html)

:P

[XASA]

LOL the US still wants to protect us from the russians?

Most of your previous anti-American rhetoric was based on current events, which was understandable if a bit rabid. The fact that you are able to do so is because Germany is a free, democratic country because of America. What's obvious from this post is that you've forgotten how important the Marshall Plan was to the rebuilding of the German economy; how the Berlin Airlift kept that bastion of freedom fed; how American soldiers presence gave Germany the opportunity to spend funds on education, medicine and industry instead of defense; and, finally, led to the reunification of Germany, something many countries didn't want because of its past militaristic history. Because of that commitment, there's no need to protect you from the Russians, which is why the troops are headed home after 50 years. Fortunately, other Germans aren't as ungrateful as you are.

[budanski]

LOL the US still wants to protect us from the russians?

. . .yes, it is time to honor Germany's support and friendship. . .
In time of need; who will they call? Who will answer? WHO CARES

Enjoy your alliance with the French.

[He219]

A quick journey down historical image archives....

http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/special/photo/berlin1/1.jpg

Soviet soldiers hoist the red flag over the Reichstag in Berlin on April 30, 1945.
http://www.orb.de/roterstern/grafik/gross/I-08a-RoterStern.jpg

Zwei russische Soldaten belästigen ein Mädchen. Die Angst vor Vergewaltigungen war in den ersten Nachkriegsjahren unter der deutschen Bevölkerung allgegenwärtig.

http://www.orb.de/roterstern/grafik/gross/I-07-RoterStern.jpg

In den ersten Monaten nach Kriegsende gehörten Plünderungen durch die Besatzungssoldaten zur Tagesordnung.

http://www.orb.de/roterstern/grafik/gross/II-10-RoterStern.jpg

Produktionshalle im Elektrotechnischen Werk Hennigsdorf bei Berlin nach der Demontage durch die sowjetischen Truppen im November 1947

http://www.orb.de/roterstern/grafik/gross/II-14-RoterStern.jpg

NS-Belastete Personen und politisch Verdächtige internierte die sowjetische Besatzungsmacht in Speziallagern. Sie nutzte dafür ehemalige Konzentrationslager wie hier in Sachsenhausen

http://www.orb.de/roterstern/grafik/gross/Buskontrolle.jpg

Während der Berlin-Blockade 1948 kontrollierten sowjetische Posten gemiensam mit Angehörigen der Volkspolizei den Zugang zu West-Berlin, hier in Babelsberg

http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/special/photo/berlin1/2.jpg

A U.S. Air Force C-54 "Skymaster" coming in to land at Berlin's Templehoff Air Base is watched by a group of blockaded Berliners in 1948. The airlift was in operation for 15 months after the Soviet authorities halted all water and road traffic into the city on June 26, 1948.

http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~hius202/images/lecture18/berlin.jpg

Berlin Airlift Begins, Residents watch from the ruins of Berlin as an American C-47 delivers food to the blockaded city, a scene that Berliners would witness daily for the next year. According to General Lucius D. Clay, U.S. Military Governor for Germany, Berlin was the testing ground for Communism, thus saving the city from Soviet control was crucial for democracy in Europe. Source: Life Magazine, 7-19-1948.

http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~hius202/images/lecture18/americanhershey.jpg

http://www.usafe.af.mil/berlin/bal-14c.jpg

At the height of the Berlin Airlift, two groups of aircraft flew in four-hour blocks around the clock. While one group of aircraft was loaded and serviced, the other group was in the air. On the 264-mile route, 32 aircraft were in the air simultaneously. In the photo, activity supports a plane taking off and landing every 90 seconds in Berlin.

http://www.usafe.af.mil/berlin/navy2.jpg

"Sunderland Flying Boat" offloading on the Havel River. The British Royal Air Force used flying boats primarily to lift salt, which was too corrosive for other aircraft, September 1948.

http://www.usafe.af.mil/berlin/british1.jpg

Within three weeks of the Airlift, the British Royal Air Force supported the Berlin Airlift with 40 RAF "Yorks."

http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~hius202/images/lecture18/coal.jpg

Coal Goes In, After unloading a 10-ton consignment of coal, the sergeant checks a lashing holding down 110 pound bags of coal in this C-54. Despite these deliveries, Berliners only had a four- week supply of coal. These planes also took displaced persons out of Berlin, such as the Polish Jews that this pilot would take back with him to Frankfurt. Source: Life Magazine, 8-9-1948.

http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~hius202/images/lecture18/great.jpg

The Great Airlift Sustains Berlin, A base officer briefs a pilot about airlift flights in a Frankfurt terminal. By early August, American pilots had made 7, 502 flights and brought 19, 786 tons of food, 10, 980 tons of coal, and 5, 899 tons of supplies for troops. Pilots usually made three rounds daily between Frankfurt and Berlin. Source: Life Magazine, 8-9-1948.

http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~hius202/images/lecture18/berlinblockade.jpg

Berlin Blockade Ends, On May 12, 1949, at the Rhein-Main Air Base in Frankfurt, Germany, base personnel had just received news that the blockade was over. After long negotiations with the U.S., the Soviet Union lifted the blockade in favor of diplomatic resolutions among the Four Powers to questions relating to Germany. Source: D.M. Giangreco and Robert E. Griffin, Airbridge to Berlin: The Berlin Crisis of 1948; Its Origins and Aftermath (1988).

http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/special/photo/berlin1/3.jpg

West Berlin police hold back crowds of Germans coming from East Berlin for food and clothing in 1953
http://www.mauer-museum.com/bilder/collage-usarmy-schild.jpg

http://www.dhm.de/ENGLISH/ausstellungen/breakthrough/images/S7/standoff.jpg

A standoff between US and soviet tanks at the Friedrichstraße border. 10/25/1961 - 10/26/1961

http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hatch/images/europe/berlin.guard

A defecting East German soldier, Conrad Schuman, leaps over a barbed wire barricade into West Berlin on August 15, 1961. Schuman made his break for freedom to join his family, which had fled earlier to West Berlin. The barbed wire barricade would soon evolve into a concrete wall, and eventually an elaborate series of walls and fences.

http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/special/photo/berlin1/5.jpg

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/DieZuspitzungDesKaltenKrieges_photoKennedyBerlin/200.jpg

http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/special/photo/berlin1/8.jpg

"Mr. Gorbachev, Tear down this wall!"

[warchild1/27scout]

oh, we did all that? and they hate us that bad. wow. :roll:

[usa320]

pfffffttt....people forget too much too easily.

Indeed, hope the french can provide the same support for germany that we did...

Once we pull out the german economy around US bases will hit rock bottom...Many businesses around US Air bases rely soley on sales to US military personel.

Too bad...

Have fun with your french allies.

[martinexsquaddie]

Jesus can't you take a joke :lol:
the cold war ended over 10 years ago

[Argyll]

Most of your previous anti-American rhetoric was based on current events, which was understandable if a bit rabid. The fact that you are able to do so is because Germany is a free, democratic country because of America.
I seem to remember that the British have a large Military Presence within Germany too,and have had simce the same period,you never done it all by yourself,ever heard of BAOR?Its that kind of statement that make the American view as arrogant and BS!
the Allies also had a presence in East Berlin within Spandau Prison where the guarding of Rudolf Hess was rotated between US/UK and I belive the French also!
During the cold war the Russians had a camp less than 200m away from a UK Garrison,where one night disgruntled squaddies threw oveer the wall,a training pamphlet on the SLR!..........next night the russians threw it back over with all the uptodate ammemnats!!!

[Shadow]

LOL the US still wants to protect us from the russians?

Most of your previous anti-American rhetoric was based on current events, which was understandable if a bit rabid. The fact that you are able to do so is because Germany is a free, democratic country because of America. What's obvious from this post is that you've forgotten how important the Marshall Plan was to the rebuilding of the German economy; how the Berlin Airlift kept that bastion of freedom fed; how American soldiers presence gave Germany the opportunity to spend funds on education, medicine and industry instead of defense; and, finally, led to the reunification of Germany, something many countries didn't want because of its past militaristic history. Because of that commitment, there's no need to protect you from the Russians, which is why the troops are headed home after 50 years. Fortunately, other Germans aren't as ungrateful as you are.

Not really, do you remember the Weimarer Republic? (1918-1933)
The Weimarer Repulblic came out of the 3. German Revulution 1918.
It was governed by the SPD, Zentrum and DDP. Then came the Wall Street Crash (Black Friday) ----------------> weak economy ------> more unemployed persons ---------> The people was dissatisfied with the government and voted Hitler.

[martinexsquaddie]

hmm so europe loses the cash the US spends on its bases But gains valuable land for development and the US spends more money at home to boost its economy seems a win win situation. Europe does'nt need American protection any more.
Unless you count protection from Saddams Fearsome steath WMD :lol:

[LongWayToTheTop]

When my old man was in the British Military in the 60's he was a Sapper/ Combat engineer he went to germany many times, and they had Cardboard tanks :lol: yeah but when he went out for 6-8 weeks out into the bush in germany when he came back they used to salute him and he was only a lance corporal he thought that was abit pathetic because the only Soldiers that should be saluted is Warrant Officers well and of course Officers. I dunno how Germany is going now days but seens 20-30 years after WW2 they couldnt really have any Technogoly, yeah but it seems alot of people think the Germans are still evil bastards from WW2 but their quite nice people ive met a few.

[Uncle Chô]

Now you have the French to protect you. It's time to wipe your own butt....

Enjoy your alliance with the French.
:cantbeli: :cantbeli: What the F*** do the French have to do with this post ??? Guys, you are hopeless heavy... :bash:



Germany is a free, democratic country because of America. What's obvious from this post is that you've forgotten how important the Marshall Plan was to the rebuilding of the German economy; how the Berlin Airlift kept that bastion of freedom fed; how American soldiers presence gave Germany the opportunity to spend funds on education, medicine and industry instead of defense;
You said it all. All other arguments are bullsh*t. woot


and, finally, led to the reunification of Germany, something many countries didn't want because of its past militaristic history. ???


Because of that commitment, there's no need to protect you from the Russians, which is why the troops are headed home after 50 years :| Do not forget US domestic and economical reasons.

[XASA]

[quote]
I seem to remember that the British have a large Military Presence within Germany too,and have had simce the same period,you never done it all by yourself,ever heard of BAOR?Its that kind of statement that make the American view as arrogant and BS!
the Allies also had a presence in East Berlin within Spandau Prison where the guarding of Rudolf Hess was rotated between US/UK and I belive the French also!
During the cold war the Russians had a camp less than 200m away from a UK Garrison,where one night disgruntled squaddies threw oveer the wall,a training pamphlet on the SLR!..........next night the russians threw it back over with all the uptodate ammemnats!!!

Yes, Argyll, I've heard of BAOR; in fact, for three years I proudly served alongside British soldiers and airmen assigned to GCHQ in Berlin. My not mentioning the Brits was because the thread was about U.S. troops leaving Germany, and Shadow's post was directed at the U.S. not Britain.

In reading this as well as other posts by you, it seems you are easily offended by any American position on any subject. It seems you and several others who post here make a point of turning every thread into an anti-American rant then are taken aback by the responses. I do not want to get into such an argument for argument's sake on this particular subject. The point I made was simple: SOME Germans, not ALL Germans are ungrateful for the sacrifices made to protect them for 50 years.

[budanski]

The Sleepy Superpower Awakes
The U.S. is on the move again around the globe, and it's about time

TIME (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,471194,00.html)
By CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER

The Great Wall of China, roughly defining the northern contours of the Chinese empire, has stood in the same place for 2,200 years. The Great Wall of America — the barrier of bases set up around the world to define the contours of the free world and hold back the Soviet empire — is about to disappear after just 50 years.

We are living a revolution, and hardly anyone has noticed. In just the three months since the end of the Iraq war, the Pentagon has announced the essential evacuation of the U.S. military from its air bases in Saudi Arabia, from the Demilitarized Zone in Korea and from the vast Incirlik air base in Turkey — in addition to a radical drawdown of U.S. military personnel in Germany, the mainstay of the Great American Wall since 1945.

For a country that is seen by so much of the world as a rogue nation, recklessly throwing its weight around, this is a lot of withdrawing. The fact is that since 9/11, when America awoke from its post — cold war end-of-history illusions, the U.S. has not, as most believe, been expanding. It has been moving — lightening its footprint, rationalizing its deployments, rearranging its forces, waking from a decade of slumber during which it sat on its Great Wall, oblivious to its immobility and utter obsolescence.

Why, after all, are we in Germany 60 years after the fall of the Nazi regime and more than a decade after the fall of the Soviet Union? Because it took a decade — and 9/11--for the U.S. to see the obvious. It took that long to dispose of the colossal anachronism known as the Antiballistic Missile Treaty, which made sense in a world of two antagonistic superpowers but made no sense in a world of rogue states and proliferating missiles and weapons of mass destruction. Similarly, it took a decade to recognize the craziness of stationing 15,000 U.S. troops as a sacrificial trip wire just yards from North Korea's million-man army.

Iceland is a perfectly nice place, and Icelanders are perfectly nice people. But what exactly are the U.S. Air Force jets stationed there protecting the Icelanders from? (The Pentagon is in talks to finally remove them.) And what is the point of our huge investments in air bases in Saudi Arabia and Turkey? We were forbidden to fly combat missions out of them at the most critical of times, during a war against an Iraqi tyrant who threatened the entire neighborhood. The war in Iraq also made plain that our 68,000 troops in Germany are totally out of place, far from the action. They were unable to get to Iraq by land because Austria, with classic old Europe self-righteousness, refused to allow our troops to cross its territory to join the fight.

We are in the midst of a revolution, and it has two parts. The first is leaving places where we are not wanted. America is moving out of old Europe, which sees its liberty as coming with the air it breathes, and being welcomed in the new Europe of Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania, which have a living memory of tyranny and a deep understanding of America's role in winning their liberty. South Koreans regularly demonstrate against the U.S. presence in their country. Since the reason for that presence is for Americans to die in defense of Seoul, one has to ask oneself at what point strategic altruism becomes strategic masochism.

The second part is leaving places that mark the battle lines of a long-dead war. The great threat today is not Soviet attack but radical Arab-Islamic terrorism and instability in that part of the world. Hence the redeployment of American forces from the plains of Europe, Korea, perhaps next Japan, to the battleground of today: the Horn of Africa, Central Asia, the Persian Gulf.

The world talks in ominous terms about the new American empire. But the U.S. was far more of an empire in, say, 1949, when it sat behind its great wall of tank armies and nuclear bombers in static defense of large territories in Western Europe and the Pacific Rim. That empire we are in the process of dismantling. The Soviets are gone, and those places, having risen from the ashes, are quite capable of defending themselves. The threat from North Korea, for example, is no longer the spread of communism but of nuclear weapons. The response should be not a sitting-duck standing army but a quick and light air-sea reaction force.

Moreover, many don't want us. So we're shifting into the far more difficult and dangerous game of containing and ultimately destroying the new enemy — nimble, mobile and undeterrable. That requires an entirely new strategy: small bases in new places, some simply forward staging areas with supplies awaiting the arrival of highly mobile troops in an emergency.

Less plodding, less heavy, less static, less fixed. This is the new American strategy: Empire Lite. Its assembly, having been announced piecemeal, has largely been missed. Make no mistake, however. We are in the midst of a great redeployment that will not only redraw the map of the world but also mark the ground to which history itself has moved.

[garyfanclub]

Amen.

[Argyll]

No XASA ,its people like you who think people like me are Anti American,and I'll state this again just in case you didn't understand the parts where I've continiously repeated myself I AM NOT ANTI AMERICAN!!.
I've been around these forums long enough to listen to certain individuals who make the same claims about the same folks over and over.Listen up Bud,I'm 40 years old served in the Military and If I was ANTI AMERICAN I'd tell you because why would it bother me not to do so.
It's your sense of Paranoia that allows you to think that just because someone thinks some of your policies suck,as some of ours do they are called anti American.
Now I know the thread was directed at the US Military but the way you said it was as if the USA done all the work themselves,and it was all down to the US,and I mearly pointed out that you're not the only one who helped Germany Post War!
But oh no you turned it into an Anti American thing,get that giant bug that's up your ass out,and stop with the Anti American crap!Well you tell me why the "band of Brithers" who all post here have an Anti French attitude?Just because they had their principles,and a really crap set of morals,and wouldn't back up your case for war!If you stopped with the "We are the greatest country in the world,and we'll kick your mother fuc*ing asses"then people wouldn't post Anti American feelings!
I have countless American Buddies,of whom I talk to most nights,and there is never any ill feelings between us,and we discuss every subject you can think of,and have debates but we're still friends
It doesn't matter which war you look at ,when the country is liberated,if you kill a large amount of civillians as the Allies did in Germany,there will always be some hatred there regardless,that my friend is human nature

[Ratamacue]

Well you tell me why the "band of Brithers" who all post here have an Anti French attitude?Just because they had their principles,and a really crap set of morals,and wouldn't back up your case for war!

No, because they're ungrateful for the help just about any country has given to them and the fact that they intended to complete VETO any plans we had of going to war.

[duck]

Now I'm going to say something very un-PC:

The french politicians are carefully watching their growing muslim voter base, slowly approaching 6 million, both with and without french citizenship.

In the same way as american politicians have to be prepared to be crucified by the jewish interest groups/voter base, if they track anything that might be interpreted as anti-semitic.

So, in France, anything too pro-Israel might destroy your political career, while in the USA any remark deemed anti-semitic could be the final one.

Maybe we should have a nuclear war because of Israel/Palestina, might be a simpler alternative to one of the opponents to give in at all.

[budanski]

I myself am anti-french - big news there. Not because they "wouldn't back up our case for war!" but how they went out of their way to sabatage it.

[Argyll]

Tane Angle
I have respect for anyone who shows it back! It's called courtesy in my book!In what way do I need to show XASA the respect you give him credit for?
Tane,fear not sir,but please he was on my six immediately with the Anti American rhetoric!
Whilst I mearly pointed out in one of his paragraphs that to me it looked as if he was stating it was all down to the US,that Germany was able to enjoy it's freedom!I pointed out that it was not a sole effort,but many Nations helped Germany,and for that I was tagged....again as being Anti American!
The "Band of Brothers" was a hint of sarcasm,whilst I would say not related to any combat term I've heard, before until the Speilberg thing came along!Maybe I should've used the term the "Usual Suspects"!!


Budanski,
Now that's a fair comment to make and I respect you for it,and yourself,because you,like me say it as you see it!Me personally I can't stand the French either,they're the most arrogant bunch of assholes I've ever come across,and I have had the misfortune to have worked with one for the past 3 years!!

[XASA]

Argyll,

Your response reinforces what I had originally stated. I know nothing I write will change your perception of post-9/11 America. But I will make an attempt.

We are not a monolithic country. We all don't share the same "arrogant" and "BS" views. I was against starting the war, but once the first vehicle entered Iraq, my thoughts were with the soldiers and marines from both the US and UK. Until they are safely back home, I will support them. I've been in a war when there was little political or popular support, and I do not want to see that happen again to them. There are other American foreign policies I disagree with; but, you know what's great about this country? When election day comes you can vote for a change, and I'm sure you'll exercise that same right in Great Britain.

The anti-French sentiment on this forum is admittedly strong, but I did not make a disparaging comment about them in my post. Like many other Americans, I don't consider myself anti-French; in fact, I understand the political reasons for their stand. Chirac had a tough decision to make, and I'm sure he probably understood and accepts the consequences of that decision. The same goes for Schroeder in Germany. They are politicians, who I hope did what they thought was best for their countries -- the same goes for Bush and Blair.

A final thought: What you perceive as "paranoia" I consider "situational awareness." You see, I live "Inside the Beltway"--Washington, D.C. I saw the smoke rising from the Pentagon, and had relatives and friends who worked in the WTC area on 9/11. We've endured anthrax in the mail, terrorist warnings, heightened security in all public areas, "dirty bombs" scares and even domestic terrorism in the form of two wacked-out snipers. Today's alert is about possible airline hijackings. The fact that there are people out there who don't like us and will murder innocent children and women to prove their hatred to the world is something we live with everyday, which is perhaps why we are so sensitive to your personal opinion.

This is a website dedicated to military photos and politico-military subjects. It attracts people who are, for the most part, very supportive of the US military. So why are you and others surprised when someone responds to your taunts? Have you given any thought as to why people react to you as they do? Do we all have a "bug up our ass"? Could it be perhaps you just want to be provocative? Whatever it is, rant on, you have a great audience of fellow forum members including myself.

Just don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

[XASA]

Tane Angle,

Thanks for covering my six. As we all know, keeping the peace is a rough job :P

[FallenAngel]

What about the Airforce Bases at Vandenburg and Ramstien? Are they too going to be "re-deployed" ? :)

[He219]

Fallen Angel: The last time I checked Vandenberg AFB is in California. However, I agree with you in assuming that Ramstein would probably remain for strategic interests.

Here is an intereresting German (http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_893876_1_A,00.html) article.

[FallenAngel]

Fallen Angel: The last time I checked Vandenberg AFB is in California. However, I agree with you in assuming that Ramstein would probably remain for strategic interests.


Crap....you're right. Brain fart. Oh well.... :oops:

*hides in embarrassment*

[ScoutRanger]

*hides in embarrassment*

Runs after fallenangel and smokes em till he cries.

[Argyll]

Perhaps he meant Bitburg AFB ?

[seventy6er]

Also, there is an important hospital in Germany, which I think is run by the USAF, possibly in cooperation with either local medical authories or the German military. I should honestly know that, I've stopped by there a few times. Anyways, that will also likely stay. Just some thoughts...

i guess you're talking 'bout landstuhl. from landstuhl to ramstein it's just some miles.