India's 'two faces'

[Caoriben]

Page last updated at 15:03 GMT, Thursday, 5 November 2009
A tale of two Indias

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46667000/jpg/_46667477_rivergranges2.jpg
Hindus believe that by washing in the River Ganges their sins are purified

India is often described as the land of extremes, rich and poor, hot and cold, forward and backward. Chris Morris reflects on what it is like to live in a country which has 'two faces'.

In the fading light of a Himalayan sunset, men strip down to their underwear and plunge headlong into the icy waters of Mother Ganga.
It is late October, winter is coming, and this is Gangotri - the place where millions of devout Hindus believe the River Ganges descends to earth from heaven. It is a place of pilgrimage high in the mountains, just a few miles from the source of the river.

The Gangotri temple is dedicated to the goddess of the Ganges.
People believe that by washing in this freezing holy water, they are purifying their sins. But this is extreme devotion.

The last afterglow of the sun is reflecting off the snow-capped peak of Sudarshan - a perfect cone-shaped mountain.

Bells are ringing in the temple, incense drifts through the chilly air, and prayers to the goddess are being chanted.

A visitor takes a photograph of a temple shrine from the wrong place and is sworn at enthusiastically in earthy Hindi. Offence is taken and curses mingle with the incense.

India is always an interesting mix of the sacred and the profane.

Cheap souvenirs

Just outside the temple gates groups of men are crouched around small fires, trying to keep warm.

And from a long line of makeshift shacks, locals are selling plastic bottles in which to collect holy water, along with cheap souvenirs and other bits of plastic tat.

I am offered a postcard with a photograph of a mountain which is so out of focus that it is hard to tell whether it really is a mountain or just a white blob.

"Very nice picture," the man says. "No it is not," I think to myself, "it is rubbish."

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46667000/jpg/_46667588_slumsrailway.jpg
Many people in India are living in poverty and lack opportunity


So what sticks more firmly in my mind? The devotion of the devout, or the tattiness of the tat? It is honestly hard to tell because India's always a bit like that - as an outsider it does not give you much middle ground, on anything.

There is so much here that is wrong, that is cruel, and that is unjust. Poverty, caste violence… and for many millions a chronic lack of opportunity.

There is shocking treatment of women, who are killed for providing insufficient dowry, or for making the fatal mistake of falling in love with the wrong man.

There is shocking treatment of children, who are trafficked, abused or forced to work 16 hours a day in sweatshop factories.

Optimism

But for many millions of other Indians, there is also something else - a sense of looking upwards, a sense that things are getting better, that the horizon is widening, that in this young society, with the oldest of cultures, this is their time.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif Hundreds of millions of people still survive on very little in this country and as they watch the new buoyant India flourish around them, there is bound to be a reaction http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif

Wherever I travel in the world, I tend to keep a mental barometer in my head - an optimism index if you will.

In India, certainly in urban India, it just feels like the mercury is rising. Compare that to parts of Europe, my previous posting, where many people have plenty of everything. They are not pre-occupied with the hope of moving up, but with the fear of losing what they already have.

India, of course, could get it all wrong. The have-nots could remain stuck in their rut, increasingly angry and marginalised.

Hundreds of millions of people still survive on very little in this country and as they watch the new buoyant India flourish around them, there is bound to be a reaction.

A peasant-based rebellion, taking inspiration from the revolutionary teachings of Chairman Mao, is fermenting dangerously across a vast swathe of Indian territory. Unchecked, it could well spread fast. "That," a senior security official once told me, "is what really keeps me awake at night."

Commonwealth Games

But middle class urban India will party on - Mumbai obsessed with Bollywood, Delhi increasingly obsessed with traffic jams, flyovers and next year's Commonwealth Games.

The Games are supposed to showcase the new India, and announce Delhi as a 'world city'. But there has been mounting concern that it will not be ready in time.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46379000/jpg/_46379620_tyagrajstadiummafp226.jpg
Work on many sports venues are running behind schedule


I suspect the event will end up being a triumph. A combination of last minute panic, natural charm, and maybe a few prayers to whichever god or goddess is most appropriate to a major sporting event will see the city through.

The runners will run, and the drummers will drum. And the slums will be screened off behind bamboo fencing. People will see what they want to see.

So back down in Delhi, I wonder whether I too should not have broken the ice by the bank and plunged into the freezing currents of the River Ganges. It might have given me a sense of perspective, which India's assault on the senses often does not allow.

Love it or hate it? I feel like I am being battered from both sides.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8342664.stm

[Muzungu]

BBC still cant get over the hangover of loosing its 'Jewel in the Crown'!

cant get over the 'Raj'!

[ego docui history]

BBC still cant get over the hangover of loosing its 'Jewel in the Crown'!

cant get over the 'Raj'!
If losing control over a country causes the British consternation, then they would be ticked at most of the world. Though, I can understand from a pompous standpoint India would stick in their craw.

Still, much like any country, there are extremes. However, India is one of those places with feet firmly planted in the last and next century at the same time.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

BBC still cant get over the hangover of loosing its 'Jewel in the Crown'!

cant get over the 'Raj'!

Oh purleez :roll:nobody in the UK gives a to$$ about India one way or the other.

Get over yourself - or can't you get over the hangover of being a colony?

[pg_ord]

BBC still cant get over the hangover of loosing its 'Jewel in the Crown'!

cant get over the 'Raj'!
BBC journalist is entitled to his opinion. This should not be a Britain vs India thread. :|

[Jack Daniels]

BBC still cant get over the hangover of loosing its 'Jewel in the Crown'!

cant get over the 'Raj'!

Rofl.......

[dttk0009]

I had a fantastic time in India and met some incredible people there. I also finally found a place where there's worse drivers than in Thailand :P
However, this article does ring true. The poverty in Mumbai was impossible to miss or ignore. It was everywhere around you, and so heavily contrasted by emerging skyscrapers, discos and restaurants. I'll never forget my first auto-rickshaw ride there. I'm used to seeing beggars, lepers and homeless here in Bangkok as well, but in Mumbai I was swarmed with children, some as young as what must have been 4 or 5, at a red light and it really shocked me. They all wanted money and tugged at my shirt and clothes. I couldn't do much but remain focused on my belongings so no pickpocketing was attempted.
It's definitely another world over there.

[dredger14]

I had a fantastic time in India and met some incredible people there. I also finally found a place where there's worse drivers than in Thailand :P
However, this article does ring true. The poverty in Mumbai was impossible to miss or ignore. It was everywhere around you, and so heavily contrasted by emerging skyscrapers, discos and restaurants. I'll never forget my first auto-rickshaw ride there. I'm used to seeing beggars, lepers and homeless here in Bangkok as well, but in Mumbai I was swarmed with children, some as young as what must have been 4 or 5, at a red light and it really shocked me. They all wanted money and tugged at my shirt and clothes. I couldn't do much but remain focused on my belongings so no pickpocketing was attempted.
It's definitely another world over there.

Begging is big business in Mumbai, those little fvckers earn upto 20 million usd per annum.
Mumbai is the engine room of the Indian economy, little space, too many poor people and a worthless squabbling government do little to make things better.

Next time go to the southern cities like Bangalore, Chennai or visit Jodhpur or Kerala.

Mumbai is an industrial ****hole!!, there's plenty of money to be made though..

[Infanteer Two Seven]

Begging is big business in Mumbai, those little fvckers earn upto 20 million usd per annum.
Mumbai is the engine room of the Indian economy, little space, too many poor people and a worthless squabbling government do little to make things better.

Next time go to the southern cities like Bangalore, Chennai or visit Jodhpur or Kerala.

Mumbai is an industrial ****hole!!, there's plenty of money to be made though..

Brap Brap Dravididan pride wootwoot p-)

[dredger14]

Brap Brap Dravididan pride wootwoot p-)

The Aryan-Dravidian topic will get you dirty stares if not knocked out in most places in India.

Those third rate sell out politicians in TN sure love it though.

[Infanteer Two Seven]

The Aryan-Dravidian topic will get you dirty stares if not knocked out in most places in India.

Those third rate sell out politicians in TN sure love it though.

That make sense since im Tamil.
but I do see Bollywood movies making fun of "kala madrassi"

[dttk0009]

Begging is big business in Mumbai, those little fvckers earn upto 20 million usd per annum.
Mumbai is the engine room of the Indian economy, little space, too many poor people and a worthless squabbling government do little to make things better.

Next time go to the southern cities like Bangalore, Chennai or visit Jodhpur or Kerala.

Mumbai is an industrial ****hole!!, there's plenty of money to be made though..
Yep, unfortunately I only had the chance to travel there on business. I did plan to return to check out more of the country (my father has travelled there countless times and loves it), but just haven't had the time in the last few years.

[dredger14]

"Madrassi" is a blanket term used to refer to all southies since madras used to be a province roughly the area of TN and some parts of Kerala. It was originally used for Karnatic people from Udupi(they owned all the good eateries in Mumbai-thus causing friction with the locals)
Bollywood makes fun of almost all ethic groups- Gujratis, Marathis, Biharis, Bengalis, Gorkhas. People from the N.E are called "chinks" as most people think they are immigrants from Nepal.
Worst hit are the Sikhs, who are caricatured either as noble warriors or as extremely stupid creatures.

[dredger14]

Yep, unfortunately I only had the chance to travel there on business. I did plan to return to check out more of the country (my father has travelled there countless times and loves it), but just haven't had the time in the last few years.

It is sad that our biggest and oldest buddhist sites are not as well maintained as the later Taj Mahal(which I think is greatly overrated).
The new Global Vipassana pagoda near Mumbai is quite grand-->(a tribute to the Burmese school of Buddhism)http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=19814756
http://i37.tinypic.com/dxiuzc.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/2ibcmsm.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/16anyhf.jpg

[ego docui history]

That make sense since im Tamil.
but I do see Bollywood movies making fun of "kala madrassi"

Ha, guess where I learned the word "ferenghi" from? Yup, Lagaan. I've picked up more good curses watching Bollywood movies than at the temple. So the movies are equal opportunity offenders. And I also agree that Sikhs do get viewed as either warriors or morons. Of course, looks at Goodness Gracious Me and how they held a pretty critical mirror up to both English and Asian culture. Awesome show.

Dregger, you're right about the lesser treatment of Buddist temples. But, the Muguls did contribute a whole bunch to the map of modern India but it's also a big honkin' tourist attraction.

[pg_ord]

That make sense since im Tamil.
but I do see Bollywood movies making fun of "kala madrassi"
what still stuck in 1970s.......BTW did you catch Quick Gun Murugan.? p-)

[pg_ord]

Dregger, you're right about the lesser treatment of Buddist temples. But, the Muguls did contribute a whole bunch to the map of modern India but it's also a big honkin' tourist attraction.
Agreed and so did Mauryas and Ashoka.

[dredger14]

That make sense since im Tamil.
but I do see Bollywood movies making fun of "kala madrassi"

Tamils can't really take offence to something like that, when they have a fugly jackass like Rajnikanth as a top grossing star.:)

[ggk]

no body say that to my beloved Rajnikanth....i will run you over.

[pg_ord]

Tamils can't really take offence to something like that, when they have a fugly jackass like Rajnikanth as a top grossing star.:)
WTF I am offended......... I am a big fan. :)

[VAMAN]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8342664.stm
BBC not again!!! Same old stereotypes :roll: This the stupidest article I have ever read. BBC people really love to mock other cultures.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

BBC not again!!! Same old stereotypes :roll: This the stupidest article I have ever read. BBC people really love to mock other cultures.

It's amazing

One obscure and mildly critical but not overwhelmingly negative article on a BBC website and the India-Strong wannabee crowd are all frothing at the mouth like the Russian Strong Putin Homo Fanboyz :-)

The extrapolations you guys make are hilarious 'one article = colonial hangover'? LOL

I have to say as someone who visits India frequently it reflects some of my impressions - especially in relation to big cities such as Mumbai or Delhi.

I have to say I wonder if your hypersensitivity is because deep down you don't like it when a naked emperor gets pointed out ;-)

[sujithkochi]

WTF I am offended......... I am a big fan. :)

x2. no one says that abt Basha

[raavan]

Tamils can't really take offence to something like that, when they have a fugly jackass like Rajnikanth as a top grossing star.:)

Tamils movies are more logical,realisitic and worth watching than Bollywood Sh*t.No offence iam not a tamilian.Well Rajnikanth is far more better actor than anyone.:)

[dredger14]

Tamils movies are more logical,realisitic and worth watching than Bollywood Sh*t.No offence iam not a tamilian.Well Rajnikanth is far more better actor than anyone.:)

Well to be fair I'm no fan of Bollywood either but who the fvck dances with chicks the same age his granddaughter.

In my opinion, except for some rare examples all regional cinema( Bolly, Kolly, Tolly etc) is nothing but meaningless dung.

[Alok]

The reporter saw two faces only, I saw many faces here; thanks to so many who wants to score self goal...welcome to true India!!!!

[Alok]

It's amazing One obscure and mildly critical but not overwhelmingly negative article on a BBC website and the India-Strong wannabee crowd are all frothing at the mouth like the Russian Strong Putin Homo Fanboyz The extrapolations you guys make are hilarious 'one article = colonial hangover'? LOL I have to say as someone who visits India frequently it reflects some of my impressions - especially in relation to big cities such as Mumbai or Delhi. I have to say I wonder if your hypersensitivity is because deep down you don't like it when a naked emperor gets pointed out What is so amazing about that? You people can not just stand the sight of a mere symbol, "Swastik", then how can you expect Indians to take it easy when the critic is the mouth piece of the same organization that plunder India for 250 years. you must give us some space to vent our anger, isn't it civilized? You are Gentle Man of world, you can bear with it for some time..

[hulaku]

What is so amazing about that? You people can not just stand the sight of a mere symbol, "Swastik", then how can you expect Indians to take it easy when the critic is the mouth piece of the same organization that plunder India for 250 years. you must give us some space to vent our anger, isn't it civilized? You are Gentle Man of world, you can bear with it for some time..

What??

Cool down, take a deep breath, have a glass of Beer and watch some lovely semi-clad ladies on the net.

[Alok]

What?? Cool down, take a deep breath, have a glass of Beer and watch some lovely semi-clad ladies on the net. Would you mind pointing me where have I crossed the minimum decency to counter an aggressive comment from one of the respected members of the community? I don't think that I have used any offensive remark by any standard.

[hidayatnw]

Bad and good I enjoy India, but it is true that those are too many beggars in Mumbai

[hulaku]

Would you mind pointing me where have I crossed the minimum decency to counter an aggressive comment from one of the respected members of the community? I don't think that I have used any offensive remark by any standard.

Re-read what you wrote and maybe you will understand yourself.

Just chill boy.

[Alok]

but it is true that those are too many beggars in Mumbai Yeh..very true. The reason can be poverty and beggar syndicate with the syndicate having the upper hand.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

What is so amazing about that? You people can not just stand the sight of a mere symbol, "Swastik", then how can you expect Indians to take it easy when the critic is the mouth piece of the same organization that plunder India for 250 years. you must give us some space to vent our anger, isn't it civilized? You are Gentle Man of world, you can bear with it for some time..

What. Who said anything about swastikas? Not me. I'm well aware of its ancient significance in India (my missus is a PIO).

As for plundering India the British Raj and the Maharajahs who ruled the rest of India at the time just did what the ruling elite of India have always done before the Raj and after!

[Universal_Soldier]

Bad and good I enjoy India, but it is true that those are too many beggars in Mumbai

It's rather odd. I remember visiting and riding a train with my dad, we looked out of the window, pretty close to busy station, and there were grown arse men taking a dump by the bushes in plain sight. It made quite an impression.

[Alok]

Re-read what you wrote and maybe you will understand yourself.

Just chill boy.
I requested you to do that for me, "You Maaan."

[Infanteer Two Seven]

Tamils can't really take offence to something like that, when they have a fugly jackass like Rajnikanth as a top grossing star.:)

that comment itself should get you banned for life.
Rajinikanth is like Chuck Norris of Tamils.......dont hate the playa hate the game :P

[dredger14]

that comment itself should get you banned for life.
Rajinikanth is like Chuck Norris of Tamils.......dont hate the playa hate the game :P

Try looking at the "playa" from an "outsiders" perspective, btw like I said before I am not a fan of Bollywood either.

I just don't understand why Indians make such a fuss about people that act. Sheer pettyness!!

[Infanteer Two Seven]

Try looking at the "playa" from an "outsiders" perspective, btw like I said before I am not a fan of Bollywood either.

I just don't understand why Indians make such a fuss about people that act. Sheer pettyness!!

you know what i agree with that it really bugs me too.
some actors/actress came here to Toronto and people were just giving out gold rings and chains as gifts. I'm like wtf!!! why dont you give that to the fellow Tamils who are homeless in Sri Lanka.

[dredger14]

^^ unless Indians evolve beyond this stage the country will always be third world, even if it has first world infrastructure and facilities, like Saudi Arabia. You cannot wish away this third-worldliness of the mind.

Hero worshiping fvckwits that do fvck-all but act(if you call that crap acting) has to go. Calling Rajni "thalaivar" is an affront to the real thalaivars past and present.

I got a lot of grief from "Bollywood freaks" growing up, often accused of being a "western wannabe".
http://www.youtube.com/v/OnvUtInqAnU&feature=fvw

[Infanteer Two Seven]

^^ unless Indians evolve beyond this stage the country will always be third world, even if it has first world infrastructure and facilities, like Saudi Arabia. You cannot wish away this third-worldliness of the mind.

Hero worshiping fvckwits that do fvck-all but act(if you call that crap acting) has to go. Calling Rajni "thalaivar" is an affront to the real thalaivars past and present.

I got a lot of grief from "Bollywood freaks" growing up, often accused of being a "western wannabe".
http://www.youtube.com/v/OnvUtInqAnU&feature=fvw

those guys in video's are wannabe's. i don't care if they don't like cultural music but making fun of their culture is sad. they are wannabe's.
I myself not a great fan of Tamil songs but i do respect the culture and our carnatic heritage.

[dredger14]

Some of them yes, but conforming to what society tells you is what is stifling innovation and ingenuity in India.
Yes I agree, culture and religion have nothing to do with music, more like the "mindset".

Being a Canadian, you won't understand this easily, upto the 90's India was a closed society, people had no choice-whether it was politics, music, life etc. You are fully exposed to foreign cultures, Indians until recently weren't.

There is a lot the rest of the world does a lot better than us, this has to be considered.

[acosta]

india's most challenging fact is, fighting hunger. how to channel private sectors profit to public welfares should be on the first page agenda.

http://www.shekharkalyan.com/images/afp_india_poor_children_15feb07_eng_210.jpg

[Infanteer Two Seven]

india's most challenging fact is, fighting hunger. how to channel private sectors profit to public welfares should be on the first page agenda.

http://www.shekharkalyan.com/images/afp_india_poor_children_15feb07_eng_210.jpg

the picture was unnecessary

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The article was hardly a knock at what India, it’s pointing out the drastic contrasts of the land. I have relatives who hail from Mumbai and can honestly say I bear no ill will against the people or the state but when the UK stops putting £1 billion of aid into a country that is developing a space program then I think its OK then if Indians get a bit tetchy about us mentioning Indian poverty.

[ruffneckzz]

It is sad that our biggest and oldest buddhist sites are not as well maintained as the later Taj Mahal(which I think is greatly overrated).
The new Global Vipassana pagoda near Mumbai is quite grand-->(a tribute to the Burmese school of Buddhism)http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=19814756


http://i33.tinypic.com/16anyhf.jpg

This looks just like shwedagon pagoda in Yangon, Myanmar..
Are the burmese building this?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/58/195438191_546b62a7d9.jpg

[ruffneckzz]

ok..nevermind my question above.
I just checked out the link you provided..
thanks

[a_very_ex_STAB]

The article was hardly a knock at what India, it’s pointing out the drastic contrasts of the land. I have relatives who hail from Mumbai and can honestly say I bear no ill will against the people or the state but when the UK stops putting £1 billion of aid into a country that is developing a space program then I think its OK then if Indians get a bit tetchy about us mentioning Indian poverty.

Snap! - on my wife's side. Do you get over there much?