Medvedev stresses modernization in Russia address [Archive]

Jippo

11-12-2009, 06:13 AM

By Michael Stott
MOSCOW (*******) - President Dmitry Medvedev called on Russia on Thursday to refocus its economy away from Soviet-era energy and heavy industry toward information technology, telecommunications and space.

"We haven't managed to get rid of the primitive structure of our economy," Medvedev said at the start of his second annual address to parliament. "...The competitiveness of our production is shamefully low."

Noting that Russia's economy had been much harder hit by the global crisis than other key nation, Medvedev said the country's giant state corporations had "no prospects" and needed overhauling to improve management and competitiveness.

Independent auditors should examine them and they should either be closed down or turned into companies with shareholders, he added.

"Instead of a primitive economy based on raw materials, we shall create a smart economy, producing unique knowledge, new goods and technologies, goods and technologies useful for people," Medvedev said.

"Instead of an archaic society, in which leaders think and decide for everybody, we shall become a society of intelligent, free and responsible people," he added.

Vladimir Putin, Russia's most powerful and popular politician, watched Medvedev make his speech from the front row in an elaborately decorated hall of the Grand Kremlin Palace. The audience greeted Putin's arrival with a standing ovation.

Medvedev is hoping to put a personal stamp on a presidency which has so far stayed in the shadow of Putin, with whom he worked for 18 years and who chose him as his successor.

The president emphasized that his ideas drew on an article he published in September calling for change, as well as e-mails and discussions with Russians from all walks of life.

Whether the speech will make any real difference to Russia remains to be seen.

LOFTY IDEAS

Analysts say Medvedev, who is nearing the halfway mark of his four-year term, has so far outlined lofty ideas but failed to make significant improvements to the country's limited democracy, controlled media and woeful human rights record.

Most diplomats, officials and ordinary Russians believe Putin, now prime minister and leader of the ruling party, remains firmly in charge and makes all the key decisions, leaving Medvedev largely as a figurehead.

Almost all the key Kremlin administration and cabinet appointments are held by Putin loyalists. Policy-making in many areas such as foreign affairs and the economy is indistinguishable from the Putin years.

Russian officials say the economic crisis, which hit Russia far harder than other large developing countries, strengthened the hand of nationalist hardliners in the government by undermining the case for Western style capitalism and showing the value of government intervention and state control. Continued...

http://www.*******.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5AB1HM20091112

Strong views, good line, interesting to see if he can actually do something.

ayanami_tard

11-12-2009, 06:31 AM

Medvedev is hoping to put a personal stamp on a presidency which has so far stayed in the shadow of Putin, with whom he worked for 18 years and who chose him as his successor.

The president emphasized that his ideas drew on an article he published in September calling for change, as well as e-mails and discussions with Russians from all walks of life.

Whether the speech will make any real difference to Russia remains to be seen

usually when a competent leader hold a particular position of a relatively long time,they will usually create a legacy,in which his/her successor might have problem to deal with it

this is almost true in the country where the head of state/government has no term limit.even if russia have one(2 term i guess),putin hold it for 2 consecutive time and done many thing within these 8 years it's going to be difficult challenge to mr medvedev to do his own agenda without being overshadowed by putin

the way i see it,rather than trying to directly outperform putin,i think he should do things his own way,do it good and be remembered as another key figure for russian prosperity

***
just a 19 years' old 2 cent

kollaps

11-12-2009, 07:16 AM

i do not believe that mr. medvedevs views are that different to putins. many things i heard before in putins addresses.

it has a more liberal tone attached to it, but things like diversification, fight against corruption were heard before.

the reform of the election system is something more liberal, but i believe putin can live with it.

i liked the speech. medvedev and putin have different strenghts. putin is more the genius in geopolitics, and medvedev understands the new technologies better. they are a good combination.

a fight between them would only du harm to russia, and i do not believe medvedev would have any chances against putin if they would run against each other in the 2012 elections. putin is a much better speaker for example.

Switek

11-12-2009, 07:29 AM

In fact, bad cop vs good cop is not appropriate comparison is rather tough cop vs gentle cop.

Universal_Soldier

11-12-2009, 09:26 AM

god knows Russia needs modernization....too many untapped potential especially Agricultural sector.

xzx

11-12-2009, 12:50 PM

MOSCOW, November 12 (RIA Novosti) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev delivered his second state of the nation address to both houses of parliament in the Grand Kremlin Palace on Thursday.
His speech to the Russian parliament was broadcast on state television and became the longest-ever presidential address, lasting 1 hour and 40 minutes.
Members of the government and State Council, heads of the Supreme, Constitutional and Higher Arbitration Courts, chairmen of the Audit Chamber and Central Election Commission, and religious leaders attended.
In line with the Russian Constitution, the president annually addresses the Federal Assembly (http://en.rian.ru/trend/medvedev_state_of_the_nation_address/), comprising the Federation Council and State Duma, to about the domestic situation and the key areas of Russia's foreign policy.
The Russian president said in his address:
- Economic modernization is a matter of vital importance for Russia and can no longer be delayed (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156806092.html)
- Russian state corporations have no future and should be reorganized and later privatized (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156807087.html)
- Russia's Armed Forces are to receive 30 new ground and sea-launched ballistic missiles, three nuclear submarines (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156808193.html), and an assortment of other weapons
- Corrupt government officials must be jailed (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156808733.html)
- Modernization of Russia in the 21st century will be based on the values and institutions of democracy (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156805765.html)
- Russian foreign policy should be pragmatic and aimed at the country's modernization
- Russia must set up a research and technological development center similar to Silicon Valley (http://en.beta.rian.ru/science/20091112/156808119.html)in the United States
- Russia will develop new generation nuclear reactors (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156807875.html) and fuel by 2014
- The government should create an effective system of state orders for defense production, ensuring balanced deliveries of modern arms and armaments for domestic needs and abroad
- The government's share in commercial companies, including strategic businesses, should be reviewed (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156807087.html)
- State-run corporations and large companies should be subject to an independent audit
- Political parties may be freed in the future from collecting signatures (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156808932.html), which is currently a requirement for them to take part in parliamentary elections
- A Russian constellation of communication satellites should be put into operation by 2015
- The number of time zones in the country (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156806943.html), currently 11, should be reduced
- The government should prepare a new approval scheme for investment projects, with the term of consideration cut from one and a half or two years to three or four months
- The level of corruption in the North Caucasus (http://en.beta.rian.ru/russia/20091112/156809623.html) is "unprecedented"
- The government will soon return to the issue of lowering taxes, which was delayed by the economic crisis
- Programs to enhance energy efficiency will be primarily introduced in the public sector
- More than 1 million Russians are in danger of losing their jobs
- All WWII veterans will be provided with housing regardless of when they apply for it
- Grants on health and sports support programs will be exempt from profit tax
- Moneylending and housing require new support measures
- The government will draft measures to enhance the quality of public services
- Broadband Internet connection should be provided nationwide in five years
- Modern satellite navigation and cartography systems should become operational in Russia by 2012
- Employment in Russia should be made attractive for Russian scientists favorable conditions for attracting foreign specialists to the country should be created
- Russia will develop 50 medicines for cardiovascular and oncological treatment
- The government's share in commercial companies, including strategic businesses, should be reviewed
- The equality of state and private schools will be fixed in legislation

Eye

11-12-2009, 03:44 PM

Last time Russia was modernized by Stalin. I hope they have changed their methods since that time.

Sashko

11-12-2009, 04:56 PM

Last time Russia was modernized by Stalin. I hope they have changed their methods since that time.

....

:cantbeli:

Kilgor

11-12-2009, 05:23 PM

eskachig

11-12-2009, 06:43 PM

Medvedev is calling for genuine modernisation a end to the hive mindset and nostalgia of the soviet.

But Putin stays silent and shirtless.

If Medvedev posted here anonymously, he would not be popular amongst the Russia strong crew.Why? Most Russians on this board seem to share his (professed) views.

TR1

11-12-2009, 06:56 PM

Last time Russia was modernized by Stalin. I hope they have changed their methods since that time.
The Poles are so predictable here.

frenchy

11-12-2009, 06:59 PM

Good speech from Medvedev and good will but let's wait on the ground what will happen.

ViceStan

11-12-2009, 07:13 PM

Last time Russia was modernized by Stalin. I hope they have changed their methods since that time.

Nah, they will march into Poland waving red flags ridding on top of bears all the while throwing vodka Molotov cocktails all over the cities and eating babies...

Kilgor

11-12-2009, 08:03 PM

Why? Most Russians on this board seem to share his (professed) views.

No

One example,

"The mass killings under Joseph Stalin cannot be justified".

"No development of a country, none of its successes or ambitions can be reached at the price of human losses and grief. Nothing can be put higher than the value of human life.

"For repressions there is no justification," he said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iHf0C7mF4GFkcH1tcCc5vWOM4AQg

RS crew have all the usual excuses . "he took the country from the plough to the bomb", " he won ww2" , " we needed to invade Eastern europe for the buffer zone", the usual can't make a omelette without breaking a few eggs excuse.

Jiggy

11-12-2009, 08:16 PM

Flamming Python or whatever is probably the worst out of the Russia Strong crew. That guy is completely delusional.

Flamming_Python

11-12-2009, 08:26 PM

Flamming Python or whatever is probably the worst out of the Russia Strong crew. That guy is completely delusional.

Yep, Stalin is the greatest man alive.

Jack Daniels

11-12-2009, 08:42 PM

RS crew have all the usual excuses . "he took the country from the plough to the bomb", " he won ww2" , " we needed to invade Eastern europe for the buffer zone", the usual can't make a omelette without breaking a few eggs excuse.

People respect the strong, even if they slaughter millions. Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Roman Empire, etc.

CaptMorgan68

11-12-2009, 09:05 PM

No

One example,

"The mass killings under Joseph Stalin cannot be justified".

"No development of a country, none of its successes or ambitions can be reached at the price of human losses and grief. Nothing can be put higher than the value of human life.

"For repressions there is no justification," he said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iHf0C7mF4GFkcH1tcCc5vWOM4AQg

RS crew have all the usual excuses . "he took the country from the plough to the bomb", " he won ww2" , " we needed to invade Eastern europe for the buffer zone", the usual can't make a omelette without breaking a few eggs excuse.

well, I always said Stalin's crimes cannot be justified by anything.. he was one bloodthirsty motherf***er...

on a different note, I liked Medvedev's speech. I believe he enjoys Putin's full support in this and hopefully things will get moving soon and at least some of the stuff he mentioned will be accomplished by 2020. the geek in me wants to see that nuclear powered space ship he mentioned travel to Mars one day)))

CaptMorgan68

11-12-2009, 09:11 PM

People respect the strong, even if they slaughtered millions. Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Roman Empire, etc.

x2 .... somehow people forget that even the democracy loving ancient Athenians slaughtered civilians by the thousands when capturing other city states... but still if Stalin avoided the mass slaughter Russia would be in a better place politically today.

Jack Daniels

11-12-2009, 09:11 PM

the geek in me wants to see that nuclear powered space ship he mentioned travel to Mars one day)))

What's so geeky about that?

Jiggy

11-12-2009, 09:19 PM

Yep, Stalin is the greatest man alive.

Hey flammer, remember this ?

they are ? lol.

explain to me how exactly are they rising ?

How is Russia not rising? What exactly about the country is declining or staying the same?

In the 90's all Western media was saying, that Russia will collapse. Seems like some people still want to believe it.

You can only believe in Russia, you can't understand it

CaptMorgan68

11-12-2009, 09:21 PM

What's so geeky about that?
most ppl obsessed with all things related to space travel are geeks .. dontcha think?

CPL Trevoga

11-12-2009, 09:31 PM

No
RS crew have all the usual excuses . "he took the country from the plough to the bomb", " he won ww2" , " we needed to invade Eastern europe for the buffer zone", the usual can't make a omelette without breaking a few eggs excuse.

Two thousand years ago Julius Caesar slaughtered millions of Gauls, raping and pillaging there for ten years. The buildings built on that blood money still standing in Rome and people still visit his grave. Nobody remembers those Gauls, but people remember the Caesar! In two thousands years nobody going to remember Mother Theresa, millions of Jews and Europeans, but they sure will know Stalin and Hitler. That's how the world works.

Sashko

11-12-2009, 10:48 PM

Medvedev is calling for genuine modernisation a end to the hive mindset and nostalgia of the soviet.

But Putin stays silent and shirtless.

If Medvedev posted here anonymously, he would not be popular amongst the Russia strong crew.

Bvll****. Most of us do very much agree with what he is saying.

CaptMorgan68

11-12-2009, 10:52 PM

Medvedev is calling for genuine modernisation a end to the hive mindset and nostalgia of the soviet.

But Putin stays silent and shirtless.

If Medvedev posted here anonymously, he would not be popular amongst the Russia strong crew.

BTW Putin was sitting front row when Medvedev was giving his state of the nation speech. Obviously it's got his approval.

CaptMorgan68

11-12-2009, 10:54 PM

I propose a new slogan for Putin's United Russia party or title of Medevedev's next speech ))) "Russia Str0ng!11!!!! by 2020")))))

eskachig

11-12-2009, 10:59 PM

"No development of a country, none of its successes or ambitions can be reached at the price of human losses and grief. Nothing can be put higher than the value of human life.

"For repressions there is no justification," he said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iHf0C7mF4GFkcH1tcCc5vWOM4AQg

RS crew have all the usual excuses . "he took the country from the plough to the bomb", " he won ww2" , " we needed to invade Eastern europe for the buffer zone", the usual can't make a omelette without breaking a few eggs excuse.

I remember that thread, and you are simplifying things to an astounding degree. Here is what I posted in there:

I'd say that most Russians on this board already agree with Medvedev's statements. Don't think I've seen anyone say that Stalin's purges, etc, and in any way morally justifiable. Everyone is aware that he was a monster. Problem is, he might have been an indispensable one.

The things that Stalin did were not morally justifiable. But he did take the country from the plough to the bomb, he did win ww2, and at the time buffer zones made strategic sense - as did USSR's determination to not fight ww3 on its own soil. Reconciling the evil of Stalin's actions with the end results is very difficult. I do not believe that the ends ever justify the means, but it's hard to deny the fact that sometimes hard choices need to be made by hard people - this always comes up in mp.net's quarterly squabble about torture.

Stalin, like Peter the Great and Ivan the Terrible are those ambiguous people in Russian history - tyrants that were nevertheless instrumental in preserving the nation.

Russians as a general rule do not pretend that his actions were morally justified, not on this board nor elsewhere, so I'd say that for the most part my original statement was correct. What people have trouble understanding is that it is possible for something to be unjustifiable yet ultimately have an overall positive effect. The issue is complex, that's all.

Also, when Russians get irate about the Stalin = Hitler comparison that is also not the same thing as justifying Stalin's actions.

eskachig

11-12-2009, 11:02 PM

Hey flammer, remember this ?
Is Medvedev saying that the country is declining?

Jiggy

11-12-2009, 11:09 PM

No, but did he say it was rising?

eskachig

11-12-2009, 11:39 PM

No, but did he say it was rising?Relative to what? The 90's? Last year? USSR's tenure? The answer changes depending on its perspective.

I don't understand what you're trying to say anyhow.

Jiggy

11-12-2009, 11:42 PM

Is it really that hard to read in between the lines?

TR1

11-13-2009, 01:00 AM

Is it really that hard to read in between the lines?
is it hard to not post nonsense?

Jack Daniels

11-13-2009, 01:36 AM

Jiggy, what the **** are you even talking about....

Breakfast in Vegas

11-13-2009, 01:43 AM

Medvedev is like Putin's knight in a game of chess.

He's saying what needs to be said, tackling the problems that need to be tackled.

Time will tell if he can break some of the inefficient systems that developed in the Soviet era and under the oligarchs and polito-garchs.

Good luck to him.

Jack Daniels

11-13-2009, 01:59 AM

Medvedev is like Putin's knight in a game of chess.

Can we please stop with this 'Putin is still in charge' crap, it got old.

Switek

11-13-2009, 03:20 AM

People respect the strong, even if they slaughter millions. Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Roman Empire, etc.

x2 .... somehow people forget that even the democracy loving ancient Athenians slaughtered civilians by the thousands when capturing other city states... but still if Stalin avoided the mass slaughter Russia would be in a better place politically today.

BS! Poles and Chechen never been thrown on knees, in fact. Always troublemakers.... ;)

From psychological point of view strength (if) is recognized as a respect only by some who were raised in violent family environment. It's a kind of disorder anyway. Real respect is based on trust and few others element. The same is in human and political relations...

Jack Daniels

11-13-2009, 03:28 AM

BS! Poles and Chechen never been thrown on knees;)

You kidding, right?

smile

11-13-2009, 03:29 AM

BS! Poles and Chechen never been thrown on knees, in fact. Always troublemakers.... ;)

From psychological point of view strength (if) is recognized as a respect only by some who were raised in violent family environment. It's a kind of disorder anyway. Real respect is based on trust and few others element. The same is in human and political relations...
Oo man, Poles and Chechen in the same group. Here we go.

From psychological point of view this beging and self selling after `90 until today looks like licking something on knees. And to speak about real respect is your tea, like it or not, but with such post-history in every russian thread. After some governments trolling the same way there is no respect in human and political relations. And government =! people.

Switek

11-13-2009, 03:30 AM

I propose a new slogan for Putin's United Russia party or title of Medevedev's next speech ))) "Russia Str0ng!11!!!! by 2...")))))

Fixed, considering the fact that since 2000 we all the time have heard that Russia will... Russia is going... p-)

Arbody

11-13-2009, 03:34 AM

Poles are Chechens of Central Europe rofl I like it

Jack Daniels

11-13-2009, 03:38 AM

From psychological point of view strength (if) is recognized as a respect only by some who were raised in violent family environment...

http://harlemworldblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/phil.jpeg

Switek

11-13-2009, 03:50 AM

You kidding, right?

Oo man, Poles and Chechen in the same group. Here we go.

Poles are Chechens of Central Europe rofl I like it

I quoted, not directly opinion of Karl Karlovich count Lambert... p-)

From psychological point of view this beging and self selling after `90 until today looks like licking something on knees. And to speak about real respect is your tea, like it or not, but with such post-history in every russian thread. After some governments trolling the same way there is no respect in human and political relations. And government =! people.

---:cantbeli: I should know that some will not be able to understand... My bad.

Afro-European

11-13-2009, 03:52 AM

Russian President Says Modernization Is Needed

MOSCOW — President Dmitri A. Medvedev (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/dmitri_a_medvedev/index.html?inline=nyt-per) issued a sweeping call on Thursday for Russia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/russiaandtheformersovietunion/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) to modernize its economy, wean itself from a humiliating dependence on natural resources and do away with Soviet-style attitudes that he said were hindering its effort to remain a world power.
“The prestige of our homeland, the national welfare, cannot depend on the achievements of the past forever,” Mr. Medvedev said in his annual address (http://eng.kremlin.ru/sdocs/themes.shtml#222694) at the Grand Kremlin Palace (http://eng.kremlin.ru/articles/buildings05.shtml). “The time has come for us — that is, today’s generation of the Russian people — to make our contribution to lift up Russia to a new, higher stage in the development of our civilization.”
Speaking for more than 90 minutes, Mr. Medvedev emphasized many of the themes that have characterized his presidency since he took office (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/world/europe/08russia.html) in May 2008 and began positioning himself as a youthful, high-tech leader who would galvanize a new era.
In September, he even published an Internet manifesto — “Russia, Forward (http://eng.kremlin.ru/speeches/2009/09/10/1534_type104017_221527.shtml)!” — about the need for fundamental changes, while seeking suggestions from Russians on what to tackle in Thursday’s speech.
In the speech, he declared that Russia, one of the largest exporters of oil (http://www.nytimes.com/info/oil/?inline=nyt-classifier) and gas, had to make its economy far more innovative so that it was no longer at the mercy of the market (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/business/global/23russiaoil.html) for raw materials. The country must manufacture products desired by the world, rather than just dig them up, he said.
Yet for all his soaring language, which has become a hallmark of his tenure, Mr. Medvedev offered few major concrete proposals to shake up a government that continues to have an authoritarian cast. Looking on was his mentor, Vladimir V. Putin (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/vladimir_v_putin/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the former president and current prime minister, who is widely considered to be more influential and less interested in reforms that might diminish the Kremlin’s authority.
In fact, one of the few points in Mr. Medvedev’s speech that seemed to cause a stir was one regarding time zones. Russia has 11, and Mr. Medvedev indicated that the government might be able to improve economic efficiency by cutting them back. Even so, he did not present a specific plan, saying only that the idea should be seriously studied.
Opposition politicians, who have been increasingly marginalized (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/world/europe/24putin.html) in the Putin era, described the speech as nothing more than platitudes. For nearly two years, since he was a presidential candidate endorsed by Mr. Putin, Mr. Medvedev has talked about (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/16/world/europe/16russia.html) bolstering political pluralism, strengthening the rule of law and reducing corruption, yet if anything, things have become worse, some of the politicians said in interviews on Thursday.
Still, the tone and content of the speech could be seen as a departure from those often given by Mr. Putin. Mr. Medvedev, 44, is a former law professor, while Mr. Putin, 57, had a career with the security services before entering the top ranks of the government.
Mr. Medvedev vowed that the government’s reliance on state-run monopolies and corporations (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/10/weekinreview/10kramer.html), a strategy favored by Mr. Putin, would end. Mr. Medvedev said he supported a more pragmatic approach to foreign relations, in contrast to the more barbed policies of his predecessor, and said that Russia too often sought external scapegoats.
“We shouldn’t be looking for the guilty party abroad,” he said. “We have to acknowledge that in past years we didn’t do enough ourselves to resolve the problems we inherited.”
Last month, Mr. Putin’s governing party, United Russia, won overwhelming victories in local elections (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/world/europe/13russia.html) that independent analysts said were marred by extensive fraud (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/weekinreview/25levy.html). Mr. Medvedev did not mention complaints about the voting, but he did propose some revisions to the election laws that he contended would enhance democracy at the grass roots.
But he also appeared to warn opposition politicians that they could go only so far in challenging the government.
“The strengthening of democracy does not mean the weakening of law and order,” Mr. Medvedev said. “Any attempts to shatter the situation, destabilize the government and split society under democratic slogans will be prevented.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/world/europe/13medvedev.html?_r=1&ref=europe

smile

11-13-2009, 03:55 AM

I quoted, not directly opinion of Karl Karlovich count Lambert... p-)
Karlovish... your mentor. Write him a letter.

:cantbeli: I should know that some will not be able to understand... My bad.
No Matter, have a nice day and post more nonsense.

Switek

11-13-2009, 04:00 AM

Some trolls never learn what an irony is...

smile

11-13-2009, 04:04 AM

Tell us all what the irony is, to post the same BS in every thread about Russia. Btw if we play the game how speak last, you have won.

Mr Gently Benevolent

11-13-2009, 04:06 AM

I would love to see Russia making most of what it has I just feel that its a nightmare of a place to do business in even for Russians themselves when I hear firsthand tales of a meeting where your client gives you a contract in Russian to sign and then puts a pistol on the table when you ask for a translation in either English or Italian you know they have some way to go in the business ethics department.

Switek

11-13-2009, 04:11 AM

Tell us all what the irony is, to post the same BS in every thread about Russia. Btw if we play the game how speak last, you have won.

Seems that you must heave lost ability to read with understanding. The problem with some guys is you generalize too quickly.

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 04:14 AM

I hear firsthand tales of a meeting where your client gives you a contract in Russian to sign and then puts a pistol on the table when you ask for a translation in either English or Italian you know they have some way to go in the business ethics department.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7882/shocked.gif (http://img248.imageshack.us/i/shocked.gif/)

Surely you must be exaggerating...at the very least I think whoever told you this is pulling your leg. That sounds like something straight out of a David Cronenberg film!

Mr Gently Benevolent

11-13-2009, 04:40 AM

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7882/shocked.gif (http://img248.imageshack.us/i/shocked.gif/)

Surely you must be exaggerating...at the very least I think whoever told you this is pulling your leg. That sounds like something straight out of a David Cronenberg film!No kidding it was my old boss and he was a very sober straight laced type of guy and it left a lasting impression on him. You do hear stuff like this in import /export game, my mate called an Italian customer and told him that he coming to see him and work out a way he could be payed back even if was in installments the customer said that he was welcome to come and talk but advised him not to book a flight home. A few months later the Italian was up on organized crime charges. One of my former clients was taken in for questioning over the disappearance of the Comtesse de Vendôme" necklace which is worth £17 million it had been stolen from a Japanese store a few years back.

Switek

11-13-2009, 05:07 AM

Bacilluspolymyxa, this story is very probable but this kind of doing business with foreigners is rare extreme. I guess that this story comes from 1990's.

The point is, what can made Medvedev thesis a fair tale, overwhelming corruption and practical weakness of law system, were state and and law enforcement institutions act as organized criminal groups, where law works if it serves political purposes of federal government and local rulers. The mix of connections between criminal groups and administration really sucks and is the biggest weakness of Russia. As long as their interests are secured is OK. The question is if federal government is able to stand against them and won...

I guess not. The pure example is Chechnya a private state of Razman Kadyrov inside Russia where federal institutions activities, if they could threaten his interests, are successfully limited by Kadyrov's people .

Jack Daniels

11-13-2009, 05:29 AM

Mr Gently Benevolent

11-13-2009, 07:22 AM

smile

11-13-2009, 09:33 AM

Mr Gently Benevolent

11-13-2009, 09:41 AM

Cool story, Hans Cristian Andersen?

No.Of course these things never happen in real life.:roll:

Flamming_Python

11-13-2009, 12:36 PM

Hey flammer, remember this ?

Yep I remember it - so what? Do you want me to repeat myself? I'll gladly do so:

Russia is rising up.

Jiggy, what the **** are you even talking about....

Bwahahaha x2!

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 12:47 PM

^^^ Did you really say this though?:

You can only believe in Russia, you can't understand ithttp://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1660/lolb.gif (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/lolb.gif/)

Sashko

11-13-2009, 01:24 PM

RIPTIDE

11-13-2009, 01:31 PM

The incident happened in the late 90's he had met the client several times before it happened and everything was fine until he asked for a translation.
ROFL. And that doesn't happen anywhere else. I know a girl who worked as a social worker in Glasgow for about 10 years. She was threatened with guns knives, iron bars.... you name it. The irony is, the thing that probably saved her was her diminutive size. :)

Mr Gently Benevolent

11-13-2009, 02:26 PM

ROFL. And that doesn't happen anywhere else. I know a girl who worked as a social worker in Glasgow for about 10 years. She was threatened with guns knives, iron bars.... you name it. The irony is, the thing that probably saved her was her diminutive size. :)You do expect these things to happen under certain circumstances and environments there is absolutely no getting away from that. Concluding a deal on the distribution of high end commercial and domestic kitchen fittings its not exactly the thing you start getting heavy over.

TR1

11-13-2009, 02:27 PM

^^^ Did you really say this though?:

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1660/lolb.gif (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/lolb.gif/)
Shouldn't you be praising the mighty accomplishment of "united' Europe in some other thread?:)

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 02:47 PM

Shouldn't you be praising the mighty accomplishment of "united' Europe in some other thread?:)

Come on TR1, you don't find that funny? He makes Russia sound like some kind of mystic religion or something! It's a country not Voodoo! http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1660/lolb.gif (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/lolb.gif/)

Keshik

11-13-2009, 03:01 PM

No

One example,

"The mass killings under Joseph Stalin cannot be justified".

"No development of a country, none of its successes or ambitions can be reached at the price of human losses and grief. Nothing can be put higher than the value of human life.

"For repressions there is no justification," he said.

.

You really arent buying thoose phrases doyou?

Just look what they are doing to evenk people ,they gonna vanish after giant dam is constructed on tunguska river! they just changed old USSR the name for the project its not turukhanks dam but evenkeskaya dam now.

Even USSR decided not to build dam during late 80s during gorbachev era.
The tribal evenks were best snipers during ww2 and are going to resist building dam and massive flooding of their land at any cost ...
Anatoly Chubais old mafia and poltron of ras-putin and finansier of dumb-vedev president campaign is owner of rushydro.
After elections they quickly turned evenk republic into evenk area so they can do what they want there without even consulting local indeginous people.
Some are saying sayano-shushenskaya dam accident was made to further push this project...

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1109537.html

they made this site to resist no to dam http://www.plotina.net/

Flamming_Python

11-13-2009, 03:32 PM

^^^ Did you really say this though?:

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1660/lolb.gif (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/lolb.gif/)

Well yeah. It's quite true think about it.

Man I like being popular and everything but you people are beggining to stalk me :)

Shouldn't you be praising the mighty accomplishment of "united' Europe in some other thread?:)

Careful he's going to turn the tables on you and talk about his (white power) dreams for a united coalition of Europe, Russia and North America :D

You really arent buying thoose phrases doyou?

Just look what they are doing to evenk people ,they gonna vanish after giant dam is constructed on tunguska river! they just changed old USSR the name for the project its not turukhanks dam but evenkeskaya dam now.

Even USSR decided not to build dam during late 80s during gorbachev era.
The tribal evenks were best snipers during ww2 and are going to resist building dam and massive flooding of their land at any cost ...
Anatoly Chubais old mafia and poltron of ras-putin and finansier of dumb-vedev president campaign is owner of rushydro.
After elections they quickly turned evenk republic into evenk area so they can do what they want there without even consulting local indeginous people.
Some are saying sayano-shushenskaya dam accident was made to further push this project...

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1109537.html

they made this site to resist no to dam http://www.plotina.net/

And this guy's even worse...

Breakfast in Vegas

11-13-2009, 03:33 PM

Can we please stop with this 'Putin is still in charge' crap, it got old.It's the truth Jack.

Keshik

11-13-2009, 04:18 PM

And this guy's even worse...
Yes ,$ putinka $ is worse then old USSR who actually gave up on giant dam projects in late 80s.... and thats the truth.
Russia is doing what even USSR didnt dare to do.

Massive uprising of the people against tyrants... ethnic cleansing of entire indeginous tribes in area ,massive ecological damage ,forced removals and human right violations, and media blackout- thats the truth.

putin and government is trying to hush -hush big problems in the central siberia area ,even putin agreed to look into it only to turn its back the moment people were starting to think they wold stop construction, all ecological and human rights agencies are against the damming of tunguska!

http://www.greenpeace.org/russia/en/news/russian-ngos-handed-over-8000

The petition requests a removal of the construction project from the «General plan of development of electric power industry of Russia till 2020». The World Wildlife Fund (WWF), Greenpeace Russia, Russian Association of Indigenous Peoples of the North, Siberia and Far East (АКМНССиДВ) and other NGOs within the field of environment and human rights urges the government to reconsider this general plan.

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 04:32 PM

...

I am disappoint. :-(

RIPTIDE

11-13-2009, 04:34 PM

You do expect these things to happen under certain circumstances and environments there is absolutely no getting away from that. Concluding a deal on the distribution of high end commercial and domestic kitchen fittings its not exactly the thing you start getting heavy over.
Oh! And I thought your people just wanted to buy hemp produce or something. Silly me.

:) ;)

kosse

11-13-2009, 04:51 PM

RIPTIDE

11-13-2009, 04:54 PM

Dozens of Finnish companies have been lost in Russia to violent takeovers. Russian mobsters just forge the ownership documents, march their goons into the company holdings and take over. Police and judges are also in their hands so it's almost impossible to get the companies back by legal means.

That's how it works over there. Even in 2009.
Its a free world (mostly). If this happened to one company why don't the others just leave. Or why didn't they leave earlier. Free market and all that..... Boris would get lonely if all the investors left. ;)

Anyway it is interesting. Any examples?

kosse

11-13-2009, 05:00 PM

Its a free world (mostly). If this happened to one company why don't the others just leave. Or why didn't they leave earlier. Free market and all that..... Boris would get lonely if all the investors left. ;)

Anyway it is interesting. Any examples?

There's still plenty of money to be made in Russia and it's usually the small players that are in danger of ending up like this. Happens all the time to Russian owners as well.

I think that Telenor is a good example of a bigger western company that got fvcked by corrupt Russian officials.

RIPTIDE

11-13-2009, 05:10 PM

I think that Telenor is a good example of a bigger western company that got fvcked by corrupt Russian officials.
Ya... but in a US court Telenor was HEAVILY fined for contempt of court. I'd say there is two to tango. ;)

kosse

11-13-2009, 05:13 PM

Here seems to be pretty good article about hostile takeovers in Russia:
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2217

smile

11-13-2009, 05:13 PM

Same **** other day.Not tired about write hate BS against one neighbour?
Curious to complain about this. It is free market , and you complain about it? Companies try business in foreign countries at own risk. Like it or not. If you need stories search for Stihl and chinise duplicates. Or Viessmann and chinese duplicates and so on... Btw Hongqi HQD is great car.
Would be great to see something at topic, but this is always the same, small annoying dogs bark at the neighbour.
Btw, Telenor is not the best example, but good try.

[QUOTE=kosse;4554689]Here seems to be pretty good article about hostile takeovers in Russia...
/QUOTE]
The same business is everywhere else too.

User_Name

11-13-2009, 05:21 PM

Anyway it is interesting. Any examples?

Here are some from Russia and Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82&search_type=&aq=f

kosse

11-13-2009, 05:21 PM

The same business is everywhere else too.

The rule of law is stronger in the "west". You can't pull many of the same stunts that seem to work in Russia. Thus less similar takeovers.

RIPTIDE

11-13-2009, 05:22 PM

Here are some from Russia and Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%82&search_type=&aq=f
I tell you what though... that happens nearly everyday here in the West. One form is called Asset stripping. ;)

Also Ponzi scheme. The name Madoff should come to mind.

kosse

11-13-2009, 05:28 PM

I tell you what though... that happens nearly everyday here in the West. One form is called Asset stripping. ;)

Also Ponzi scheme. The name Madoff should come to mind.

Madoff was sentenced to 150 years. Rule of law again. In Russia the law could not have propably touched a guy like that unless he ended up on the bad side of Putin&co (i.e. gotten targeted by even bigger, meaner and more powerful fvckers).

smile

11-13-2009, 05:31 PM

The rule of law is stronger in the "west". You can't pull many of the same stunts that seem to work in Russia. Thus less similar takeovers.
History of very wise statements go on. After Soviet high-tech generally had a lot shorter life-span than it's western equivalents.Now this.
The same takeover raid are everywhere else too. Maybe it is too mush if you post some relieble sources, after such statements.

User_Name

11-13-2009, 05:32 PM

Madoff was sentenced for 150 years. Rule of law again. In Russia the law could not have propably touched a guy like that unless he ended up on the bad side of Putin&co (i.e. gotten targeted by even bigger, meaner and more powerful fvckers).

Na, na, na, does name Kumarin say to you something?
He was a godfather of St. Petersburgs mafia with many raider takeovers, now he is in jail for 20 years.
Biggest problem is that many do their business in the grey zone, those raiders acts also in the grey zone.

RIPTIDE

11-13-2009, 05:37 PM

Madoff was sentenced to 150 years. Rule of law again. In Russia the law could not have propably touched a guy like that unless he ended up on the bad side of Putin&co (i.e. gotten targeted by even bigger, meaner and more powerful fvckers).
And how many Madoffs are still out there? Madoff was a scape goat. He HAD to take the hit. The people needed blood, and they got him. Now what of Madoffs accomplices? Caviar lunch in the Ritz as usual Bob.

Read the article you posted. In one place of the article it makes a comparison to similar tactics used in the US in the 80's as they were used in Russia. My point is... depending on different legal structures in different countries the way of hostile takeover and asset stripping, functions a bit differently. But it functions just the same.

kosse

11-13-2009, 05:40 PM

History of very wise statements go on. After Soviet high-tech generally had a lot shorter life-span than it's western equivalents.Now this.
The same takeover raid are everywhere else too. Maybe it is too mush if you post some relieble sources, after such statements.

OK. Whatever. Problems I mentioned don't exist in Russia. And if they exist, they can't be worse than in the west. It's just another lie by evil anti-Russia crowd. In fact, Russia is heaven on earth. Just like SU was. Companies are safe and business is booming. Stalin was also a good guy in his heart. Tra la la la laa.

Na, na, na, does name Kumarin say to you something?
He was a godfather of St. Petersburgs mafia with many raider takeovers, now he is in jail for 20 years.
Biggest problem is that many do their business in the grey zone, those raiders acts also in the grey zone.

One guy was put away. 100 are ready to take his place.

Final thought: Is there anything else in Russia than grey zone considering how corrupted the whole system is? Can you avoid stepping in the grey if you actually try to do business there? Someone has to be always bribed to get something done.

User_Name

11-13-2009, 05:44 PM

Final thought: Is there anything else in Russia than grey zone considering how corrupted the whole system is? Can you avoid stepping in the grey if you actually try to do business there? Someone has to be always bribed to get something done.

Yes you can, DONT GIVE BRIBES! Very simple, isnt it?

GTX-Typhoon

11-13-2009, 06:03 PM

The last couple of pages have the usual Russophobic mafia shouting out hate for Russia. Utter and pure discrimination which in the end will be their countries downfall forever when being nuked to submission.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On topic:

I knew all allong that Russia needed to have profound, soul deep cutting actions to modernise the country.

The thing is, I want to see some of that in practice of what has been promised. Either show that you clearly made progress in the lines of modernising or just shut up. Yes, i am talking about Putin and Medvedev.

If only Medvedev and Putin had the guts to embark on a true and logical course of action then they would need to make the first steps to make Russia an Empire once again.

In short: Stop making promisses, do something!~And when you do, modernise Russia so it can be a powerfull modern Empire. It IS possible. It should be done.

A modern Russian Empire with a person as good as Putin on power with a strong family backing the person up is the holy grail for Russia. When it has done that, it can be the most powerfull entity ever seen on the face of this world.

Russian Empire URAH!

eskachig

11-13-2009, 06:06 PM

Come on TR1, you don't find that funny? He makes Russia sound like some kind of mystic religion or something! It's a country not Voodoo!Apparently he is simply more literate than you.

Russia cannot be understood by the mind
Or reckoned by some standard measure
Her stature is a different kind
Russia can only be believed in

Was true in the 19th century and still is.

Edit: Typhoon, empires are sort of passe in this day and age.

And this?

Utter and pure discrimination which in the end will be their countries downfall forever when being nuked to submission.Dude... take your meds.

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 06:10 PM

^^^ My bad for not being familiar with all the works of Russian poets.

Edit: Interesting, apparently the poet, Fyodor Tyutchev was a Slavophile.

Jack Daniels

11-13-2009, 06:15 PM

I am disappoint. :-(

http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/english-do-you-speak-it-demotivational-poster.jpg
:)

eskachig

11-13-2009, 06:18 PM

^^^ My bad for not being familiar with all the works of Russian poets.I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but this is a very famous line and is routinely used in Russia related topics. I actually am not particularly familiar with Tyutchev's work outside of long lost memories of elementary school in USSR, but the metaphor transcends the scope and popularity of his work.

Kind of like I never read that particular Kipling novel, but I still know what "The Great Game" refers to.

Though Tyutchev is quite famous in his own right.

The name of Fyodor Ivanovich Tyutchev, a fine 19th century poet, figures prominently in the annals of Russian and world culture. "One cannot live without Tyutchev," said Leo Tolstoy, who valued him highly as a poet and thinker. Fyodor Dostoyevsky viewed Tyutchev as "the first poet-philosopher to be equalled by no one but Pushkin". Afanasi Fet wrote of Tyutchev's work:

Here the dominion of a mighty spirit, Here the light of a subtle life...

Though constantly immersed in the world of his innermost experiences, Tyutchev thought incessantly and passionately about the destiny of Russia, Europe and the world. And his words were often prophetic. According to the reminiscences of Vladimir Bonch-Bruyevich, Lenin admired Tyutchev's poetry and spoke of the spontaneous rebelliousness of the great poet, who had anticipated momentous events.

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 06:23 PM

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but this is a very famous line and is routinely used in Russia related topics. I actually am not particularly familiar with Tyutchev's work outside of long lost memories of elementary school in USSR, but the metaphor transcends the scope and popularity of his work.

Kind of like I never read that particular Kipling novel, but I still know what "The Great Game" refers to.

Though Tyutchev is quite famous in his own right.

I wasn't being sarcastic. Personally speaking I've never liked poetry, in any language. I have no idea why, but it never appealed to me. http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6445/nixweiss.gif (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/nixweiss.gif/)

GTX-Typhoon

11-13-2009, 06:29 PM

Edit: Typhoon, empires are sort of passe in this day and age.

Japan is technicaly still an Empire and yet has the 2nd largest induvidual economy in the world taxing at almost 5 trillion US $.

Also, the USA has many if not most of the characteristics of an empire... Your point is moot. You are just plainly wrong.

And this?
Dude... take your meds.

Or maybe i have had enough of these scumbags that are a threat to Russia? And all those Russia haters can inhale in a bucket full of acid.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On topic:

If Russia wants to modernise quicly then it should also focus its attention to modernising/replacing the entire infrastructure network of roads, pipelines, powerlines, datalines, rail and logistics involving these important things.

Some people around Voronezh still dont have gas and running water pipelines connecting their homes whilest they should have that stuff up and running as far back as early 2000's.

eskachig

11-13-2009, 06:31 PM

I wasn't being sarcastic. Personally speaking I've never liked poetry, in any language. I have no idea why, but it never appealed to me. http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6445/nixweiss.gif (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/nixweiss.gif/)Poetry is one of those things... if you keep your mind open sooner or later in your life something will click.

And I guess Tyutchev may have been a slavophile, even though he lived much of his life out of the country, and spoke French better than he did Russian. Certainly that little passage is frequently cited in that fashion. His politics, however, have little to do with why he is so loved and respected, and most of his poems do not lean that way either.

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 06:32 PM

Utter and pure discrimination which in the end will be their countries downfall forever when being nuked to submission.

Does that include yours (the Netherlands)?

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 06:39 PM

Poetry is one of those things... if you keep your mind open sooner or later in your life something will click.

I get it. I understand it. I can even see why it's appreciated, and even admit that there's an ephemeral beauty to it. However, I just don't have the patience for it. Some people simply don't like certain things. I have friends who don't appreciate classical music no matter how much I explain it to them. People are different. They like certain things, but you can't expect them to like everything. Perhaps it is irrational, but humans aren't always rational are they?

And I guess Tyutchev may have been a slavophile, even though he lived much of his life out of the country, and spoke French better than he did Russian. Certainly that little passage is frequently cited in that fashion. His politics, however, have little to do with why he is so loved and respected, and most of his poems do not lean that way either.

Well, I was going by Wikipedia. I realize that it's not always 100% correct, but they attributed the passage you quoted as a motto for Slavophilism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Tyutchev

GTX-Typhoon

11-13-2009, 06:47 PM

Does that include yours (the Netherlands)?

It would be a quick premature ending of the NL but it will save the NL from the educational apocalyps happening in our country.

Why? Because of the critical teacher shortage's that are getting worse and worse every single year. The NL has an economy based on knowledge and many of its simple manufactering has been exported to countries like Poland or China. Without knowledge and no available supply of jobs in the lower end of the economy sector, the NL is doomed to die.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Topic:

What is the status of the Russian car manufacturers? Is it possible that Russian company's can produce cars that can compete with Western/Japanese ones?

And what about the propposed modernisation plan of building a series of R&D complexes to rival Sillicon Valley? Which Russian company's are going to be housed in this Sillikov Valleyski?

Elbs

11-13-2009, 06:50 PM

What on earth are you talking about?

Stop creaming your pants whenever the word Russia is brought up.

GTX-Typhoon

11-13-2009, 06:54 PM

What on earth are you talking about?

If you for once try and read it with a clear mind then you will understand Elbs.

Stop creaming your pants whenever the word Russia is brought up.

Cant help it. I love that country too much for you to bear.

Mr.K

11-13-2009, 07:03 PM

What is the status of the Russian car manufacturers? Is it possible that Russian company's can produce cars that can compete with Western/Japanese ones?

Still crap, I'd just heavily invest in western car manufacturers and make them open factories in Russia.
In fact the term western means very little, since car manufacturers are multinational firms.
Developing its own car industry will take a good 20-30 years. Look at Hyundai for example.

And what about the propposed modernisation plan of building a series of R&D complexes to rival Sillicon Valley? Which Russian company's are going to be housed in this Sillikov Valleyski?

You have to get the juice back! On a more serious note, funding should be allocated to R&D so the best and brightest go work in their fields of study instead of selling cellphones in Evroset'.

eskachig

11-13-2009, 07:20 PM

Japan is technicaly still an Empire and yet has the 2nd largest induvidual economy in the world taxing at almost 5 trillion US $.

Also, the USA has many if not most of the characteristics of an empire... Your point is moot. You are just plainly wrong.Yes, technically is fine. Being an actual empire though just doesn't make sense these days. Conquest and occupation are exceedingly expensive, and not particularly profitable. Empires peaked in the 19th century for a reason.

Or maybe i have had enough of these scumbags that are a threat to Russia? And all those Russia haters can inhale in a bucket full of acid.You're not helping anyone other than "Russia haters" by foaming at the mouth and generally acting like a loon.

eskachig

11-13-2009, 07:37 PM

I get it. I understand it. ... Perhaps it is irrational, but humans aren't always rational are they?It's not irrational at all, and I don't mean to say that you're deficient in any way. But still, don't be surprised if at some point something clicks, whether it's Shakespeare, Russian romantic poetry, or lyrics to a rock song. Poetry is as old as humans for a reason.

I felt about theater the same way until, like, last year.

Well, I was going by Wikipedia. I realize that it's not always 100% correct, but they attributed the passage you quoted as a motto for Slavophilism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Tyutchev
I think it sort of is I guess. That's not why he is famous and loved though,

Derbedeu

11-13-2009, 07:59 PM

It's not irrational at all, and I don't mean to say that you're deficient in any way. But still, don't be surprised if at some point something clicks, whether it's Shakespeare, Russian romantic poetry, or lyrics to a rock song. Poetry is as old as humans for a reason.

Perhaps. People's taste does change as they age. Funnily enough, if you put poetry to song, I like it. Probably because I then cease to see it as poetry but rather I see it as a song.

I felt about theater the same way until, like, last year.

What changed?

I think it sort of is I guess. That's not why he is famous and loved though,

No doubt you're correct.

eskachig

11-13-2009, 09:31 PM

What changed?I dated a girl whose passion for it turned out to be infectious. For some reason seeing the challenges of putting a performance together from the inside made me appreciate the depth of the artform, which then made it much more enjoyable to experience. It's weird, nothing has changed other than the quality of my experience - it's not like I was uneducated about theater before, I read many plays and enjoyed doing so, even did the requisite high school play, but I never found myself truly moved until she let me see it through her eyes.

As for poetry, I was also totally ambivalent about it until it touched me, almost randomly. I was always a bit of a history geek, and when we read 'Ozymandias' in middle school it just gave me goose bumps. It's not like its themes and concepts were new to me, bit it was astounding how strongly it made me feel. At the time it amazed me how much Shelly could do with 14 lines of text.

Hip hop? Deltron 3030 blew me away, until then I wanted nothing to do with it.

Art is all about emotion, and if a work doesn't make an emotional impact then all you are left with is intellectually judging the aesthetic - an important skill, but something is always missing. For something to resonate emotionally both the artist's work and the viewer/listener have to be in sync on some level, and that communication doesn't always happen for whatever reason. Sometimes it is the question of the right mental tools - this is why old people hear death metal and just hear noise. It takes time to build enough understanding of the medium where you can hear what the artist is really trying to express. Human emotion never changes and the themes modern musicians express can be found all over the scope of human art, past and present, but the way they communicate this is difficult for the uninitiated. On the flipside of this, a lot of people can't enjoy Shakespeare because they have to work so hard just to read the old style language. But spend enough time with it and you forget about the odd phrasing and start laughing at the **** jokes.

I'm not a big believer of investing a lot of work into these things, but I learned that it pays to keep one's mind open. Amazing art happens in every medium, so I when I think I don't like a whole section of art I try to remind myself that I don't like it yet. At the same time - you can't force these things and there is no point in trying. If something really touches your soul though, you'll have the motivation to search further anyway.

But this is totally off topic so.... RUSSIA Str0ng!

Jack Daniels

11-13-2009, 09:57 PM

Fooking hell, enough with the Dr. Phil stories, back to the topic.

Derbedeu

11-14-2009, 02:27 AM

But this is totally off topic so.... RUSSIA Str0ng!

And you were doing so well until the end...http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3660/shake.gif (http://img688.imageshack.us/i/shake.gif/)

As for the topic, Medvedev has been in power for almost two years. He was somewhat of an unknown (never really in the political limelight) when Putin was President, so my question to the Russian members (preferably those living in Russia, not expats) here is:

What do you make of him so far? How has he done foreign policy wise? How has he done domestically? What has he done that you liked? What has he done that you don't like? What do you wish to see from his administration (i.e. what should he concentrate on) by the time it's done? Would you vote for him if he runs again? Perhaps most importantly, should he start doing shirtless photo-ops?

smile

11-14-2009, 03:32 AM

OK. Whatever....

Idiots are everywhere, even here. And takeover raids are everywhere, it is not new business.

Jack Daniels

11-14-2009, 05:14 AM

What do you make of him so far? How has he done foreign policy wise? How has he done domestically? What has he done that you liked? What has he done that you don't like? What do you wish to see from his administration (i.e. what should he concentrate on) by the time it's done? Would you vote for him if he runs again? Perhaps most importantly, should he start doing shirtless photo-ops?

Jesus Christ dude, what's with the 21 questions.....

Keshik

11-14-2009, 06:42 AM

.... RUSSIA Str0ng!

yeah ,strong..... lets see their newest modern equipment....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soUUOHqjvY0

pufff....hahahahaa....strong puff ahahahah rofl

Keshik

11-14-2009, 06:48 AM

The rule of law is stronger in the "west". You can't pull many of the same stunts that seem to work in Russia. Thus less similar takeovers.

Behind fancy smiles and talk of reform and modern state in Moscow , state of siberian ethnic communities and anyone who opposes russian oligarhs exploatation is not even remotely modern , but resembles stalinists gulags methods of total media blackout ,military and police heavyhand and corruption worse then wild west...not even russians know much of this because theyll filled with media reports about so called *sucsesses* in chechenia campaigns...inside of Russia is terrible country to live.

Flamming_Python

11-14-2009, 06:52 AM

yeah ,strong..... lets see their newest modern equipment....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soUUOHqjvY0

pufff....hahahahaa....strong puff ahahahah rofl

Hmm so convenient that you haven't told anyone where YOU'RE from yet :roll:
I seem to remember the Keshik as being the special unit of the Mongols in Civ 4; so let's start from there eh?

Mongolian military tech:

http://www.youtube.com/v/lMLUOFZdrnE&hl=en_GB&fs=1&

Switek

11-14-2009, 06:56 AM

Wow!!! There were few Honest Russian who dared to say about the real face of current political & economic regime in their country but Russia strong crew successfully got them rid of...

User_Name

11-14-2009, 06:56 AM

yeah ,strong..... lets see their newest modern equipment....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soUUOHqjvY0

pufff....hahahahaa....strong puff ahahahah rofl

:cantbeli:Facepalm.jpg

to Darbedeu

As for the topic, Medvedev has been in power for almost two years. He was somewhat of an unknown (never really in the political limelight) when Putin was President
Unknown for you, but not in Russia:

In November 1999, Medvedev became one of several people from St. Petersburg brought by Vladimir Putin to top government positions in Moscow. In December of the same year he was appointed deputy head of the presidential staff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Administration_of_Russia). Dmitry Medvedev became one of the politicians closest to President Putin, and during the 2000 elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_presidential_election_2000) he was Putin's campaign manager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_manager).
From 2000 to 2001, Medvedev was chair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chair_%28official%29) of Gazprom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom)'s board of directors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_directors). He was then deputy chair from 2001 to 2002. In June 2002, Medvedev became chair of Gazprom's board of directors for a second time. In October 2003, he replaced Alexander Voloshin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Voloshin) as presidential chief of staff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_presidential_administration). In November 2005, he was appointed by President Vladimir Putin as First Deputy Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deputy_Prime_Minister), First Deputy Chairman of the Council for Implementation of the Priority National Projects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_national_projects_of_Russia) attached to the President of the Russian Federation, and Chairman of the Council's Presidium. In December 2005, Medvedev was named Person of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_the_Year_%28Expert_magazine%29) by Expert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_%28Russian_magazine%29) magazine, Russian business weekly. He shared the title with Alexei Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Miller), CEO of Gazprom.
Often described as a mild-mannered person, Dmitry Medvedev is considered to be a moderate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate) liberal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) pragmatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism), an able administrator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administration_%28business%29) and a loyalist of Putin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_groups_during_Vladimir_Putin%27s_presidency).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Medvedev#cite_note-17)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Medvedev#cite_note-18)[dated info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dmitry_Medvedev#obsolete)] He is also known as a leader of "the clan of St.Petersburg lawyers", one of the political groups formed around Vladimir Putin during his presidency.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Medvedev#cite_note-Assassins-10) Other members of this group are believed to include the co-owner of the Ilim Pulp Corporation Dmitry Kozak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Kozak), speaker of Russian Federation Council Sergei Mironov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Mironov), Yuri Molchanov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Molchanov), and head of Putin's personal security service Viktor Zolotov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Zolotov).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Medvedev#cite_note-Assassins-10)

kosse

11-14-2009, 07:01 AM

Yes you can, DONT GIVE BRIBES! Very simple, isnt it?
Easier said than done.

http://www.youtube.com/v/rZVwBI6Vnbs

User_Name

11-14-2009, 07:08 AM

Easier said than done.

http://www.youtube.com/v/rZVwBI6Vnbs

Corruption begins in the head
As an example, you are stopped because you were to fast. You have two possibilities to pay a official bill or to bribe the officer. To bribe is an easy way, so most choose the second one and after that screaming about corruption.

tommy00

11-14-2009, 07:44 AM

As an example, you are stopped because you were to fast. You have two possibilities to pay a official bill or to bribe the officer. To bribe is an easy way, so most choose the second one and after that screaming about corruption.

Naive one....
Yea, you have two possibilities, to bribe the cop on the road,...or to follow them to a next policestation, (wich can be located god-knows where), to prove and control some papers you have(or you don't have),....and god-knows how much time this takes, and how much it gonna cost you,..ges there you have to bribe more folks then cop on the road, to get out of there....
At least, haven't met(heard) anyone(including myself), who has ever choosed a second option...

User_Name

11-14-2009, 07:52 AM

Naive one....
Yea, you have two possibilities, to bribe the cop on the road,...or to follow them to a next policestation, (wich can be located god-knows where), to prove and control some papers you have(or you don't have),....and god-knows how much time this takes, and how much it gonna cost you,..ges there you have to bribe more folks then cop on the road, to get out of there....
At least, haven't met(heard) anyone(including myself), who has ever choosed a second option...

So we have a corruption supporter herep-)
Try the second way out, it takes more time and nerves, but you feel your self better afterward. And maybe, it would make you think twice to not drive so fast:)

Switek

11-14-2009, 07:52 AM

Corruption begins in the head
As an example, you are stopped because you were to fast. You have two possibilities to pay a official bill or to bribe the officer. To bribe is an easy way, so most choose the second one and after that screaming about corruption.

The problem begins when corruption is regarded as integral part of the system adopted few generations earlier but still widely accepted.

I'm not bitching Russia itself but we have the same problem in our health service where giving money or presents is sometimes forced by patients or relatives.

The real problem of Russia is that some federal/local institutions are treated by state agents as tools of organized bribing ... This is a real challenge.

User_Name

11-14-2009, 07:59 AM

The problem begins when corruption is regarded as integral part of the system adopted few generations earlier but still widely accepted.

I'm not bitching Russia itself but we have the same problem in our health service where giving money or presents is sometimes forced by patients or relatives.

The real problem of Russia is that some federal/local institutions are treated by state agents as tools of organized bribing ... This is a real challenge.

All begins with a small step, if there is bribing on base level, there is ofcourse a bribing on high level.

kosse

11-14-2009, 08:07 AM

So we have a corruption supporter herep-)
Try the second way out, it takes more time and nerves, but you feel your self better afterward. And maybe, it would make you think twice to not drive so fast:)

Huh? Do you live in Russia?? If you don't pay the cop what he's asking he's going to make sure you suffer and end up paying a lot more in the end. That's why you bribe them. At least I get no kicks of ending up a martyr in Russian jail on fake charges or some other shyt.

tommy00

11-14-2009, 08:10 AM

So we have a corruption supporter herep-)
Try the second way out, it takes more time and nerves, but you feel your self better afterward. And maybe, it would make you think twice to not drive so fast:)

It is easy to say this, coming from a person with no personal experience,,......
You try it, when it's allready dark outside, you got a girlfriend(or children) in your car, you'r tired, have'd drive all day.......so you go, go with them to a station god-knows where,.....and you remember all thouse nice stories you read in media, about "russian copers",...how nice and warm people they are....:roll:.......
Maybe as a foreigner, i could get normal treatment, i don't know,....bud i can't misjudge no local people for a bribing a cop, to avoid closer contacts with them......

Switek

11-14-2009, 08:12 AM

All begins with a small step, if there is bribing on base level, there is ofcourse a bribing on high level.

Probably you should jail every minister of Russian government and probably from 50 to 90% of personell from their ministers ...

Of course I did exaggerate but to fight with corruption effectively you must have really independent transparent and democratic institutions. In other words you need completely change of system. The key is that there are many (on many levels) who benefit quite well from current situation... In this case I agree with tommy00. Some folks would defend their money using all means...

kosse

11-14-2009, 08:15 AM

Maybe as a foreigner, i could get normal treatment, i don't know,....bud i can't misjudge no local people for a bribing a cop, to avoid closer contacts with them......

No you wouldn't. They'd know you have money and they would take their cut one way or another. Even if they'd fail to make you pay they'd make it unpleasant experience enough for you to never make the same mistake again (not paying when you should) :|

User_Name

11-14-2009, 08:18 AM

Huh? Do you live in Russia??
As same as you - nope, i am even not russian.

If you don't pay the cop what he's asking he's going to make sure you suffer and end up paying a lot more in the end. That's why you bribe them. At least I get no kicks of ending up a martyr in Russian jail on fake charges or some other shyt.

This was a common story from 90s, earth does not stay still

tommy00

11-14-2009, 08:32 AM

No you wouldn't. They'd know you have money and they would take their cut one way or another. Even if they'd fail to make you pay they'd make it unpleasant experience enough for you to never make the same mistake again (not paying when you should) :|

Perhaps, perhaps, i have no desire to try this on my own skin....
All people in Russia i communicate, in different places, all always say the same,.."don't argue with cops on the road, don't try to prove that you didn't broke the rules,..just pay the money..,.."
Offcourse, not all people in this system are corrupt,.....sure there's plenty honest folks.....bud traffic cops,......it's a taff call......
At least i have allways payed, to avoid more troble......

Jack Daniels

11-14-2009, 08:58 AM

Good thing we are staying on topic.......

Eye

11-14-2009, 09:56 AM

As same as you - nope, i am even not russian.

You see, everybody knows you are Russian pretending German p-)

Eye

11-14-2009, 09:58 AM

Good thing we are staying on topic.......
So corruption is not problem in Russia?

gazell

11-15-2009, 03:11 PM

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7882/shocked.gif (http://img248.imageshack.us/i/shocked.gif/)

Surely you must be exaggerating...at the very least I think whoever told you this is pulling your leg. That sounds like something straight out of a David Cronenberg film!

You are a bit out of touch with business reality here, generally, especially 90's Russia. Bloody common as muck it was. Hungary got so full of Russian Ukrainian mafia in those days that even the CIA was a bit surprised.

It is still not easy to do business there.

Whoever posted the rubbish, Python is quite a reasonable person here, stop taking the piss of him.

As for the topic, well done and good luck to him, we shall see, where it goes to in practice. That is always harder.

Robert.V

11-15-2009, 06:55 PM

Surely you must be exaggerating...at the very least I think whoever told you this is pulling your leg. That sounds like something straight out of a David Cronenberg film!

No, in the 90's stuff like that happend. Something I even withnessed myself. A man was once was held down on the asfalt and a guy with a back of the axe(blunt side) busted his bones. Upper arms, lower arms, hands fingers, etc. The man didn't last long as you can imagine and died.

Derbedeu

11-15-2009, 07:04 PM

Sashko

11-15-2009, 09:02 PM

No, in the 90's stuff like that happend. Something I even withnessed myself. A man was once was held down on the asfalt and a guy with a back of the axe(blunt side) busted his bones. Upper arms, lower arms, hands fingers, etc. The man didn't last long as you can imagine and died.

What line of work were you exactly in to witness such things? I lived in St.Petersburg and then Moscow during the '90s and never seen in person any of the horrors foreigners seem to have witnessed.

Yeah, you had to keep your wits around you all the time, but it wasn't exactly Mogadishu that people try to picture here.

CaptMorgan68

11-15-2009, 09:08 PM

What line of work were you exactly in to witness such things? I lived in St.Petersburg and then Moscow during the '90s and never seen in person any of the horrors foreigners seem to have witnessed.

Yeah, you had to keep your wits around you all the time, but it wasn't exactly Mogadishu that people try to picture here.

It wasn't Mogadishu for sure but there was some gruesome stuff going on.. But you could be a commoner, live through those years and never witness anything horrific its true.

CaptMorgan68

11-15-2009, 09:10 PM

So corruption is not problem in Russia?

Corruption is a big problem in Russia and it is being tackled believe it or not... Russia needs to reduce corruption if it wants modernize that's for sure. I think the current leadership including Putin understands that simple fact.

Robert.V

11-16-2009, 01:04 AM

no one called the the cops? Did the guy get arrested? WTF, was that in like broad daylight in the middle of the street?

yep and I don't know if he was arrested or the guys with him for that matter.

What line of work were you exactly in to witness such things? I lived in St.Petersburg and then Moscow during the '90s and never seen in person any of the horrors foreigners seem to have witnessed.

Yeah, you had to keep your wits around you all the time, but it wasn't exactly Mogadishu that people try to picture here.

I was kid still at that time and this was in Latvia in like 1992.

gazell

11-16-2009, 04:18 PM

no one called the the cops? Did the guy get arrested? WTF, was that in like broad daylight in the middle of the street?

Nothing to do with this particular post, but the second half of mine was not at all directed at you, just very badly posted, sorry about that.

Otherwise, depends, where you were or what you were doing. My Russian was rather good at those times, would you like a job, oh, god, what you could get into.

There were daylight shootings from cars, too, loada fun.

Robert.V

11-16-2009, 05:19 PM

Drive by shootings ?

gazell

11-16-2009, 07:10 PM

Drive by shootings ?

Yes, I suppose. I'm not sure what is the question though.

Robert.V

11-16-2009, 07:22 PM

I'm surprised, that's all.

gazell

11-17-2009, 12:37 PM

I'm surprised, that's all.

It's quietened now, but such accidents still do happen, even if seldom, that a businessman finds himself shot.p-)

Keshik

11-19-2009, 01:11 PM

Kutuzov

11-19-2009, 02:10 PM

So corruption is not problem in Russia?

Stay on topic or don't post at all plenty of corruption threads out there Mr.russophobe.

Switek

11-19-2009, 02:13 PM

Stay on topic or don't post at all plenty of corruption threads out there Mr.russophobe.
Most of decent Russian mp.net members consider enormous scale of corruption as a real threat for Russia. Would you call them as Russophobes, as well?

Sashko

11-19-2009, 03:41 PM

you mean like russian bussinessman shabataj kalmanovic ,owner of female basketball club , assasinated in center of moscow recently?

what a pro job that was....
in remote areas people are driving APCs in order to stay alive and have large gardens full with german sheapheard dogs, to save themselves form oligars who support regime in exchange for hands free actions all over country.

1) Israeli businessman. A very sketchy persona himself.
2) what is so pro about driving up to car standing at a red light and unloading a few magazines into it at point blank range? It was more of unprofessionalism on Kalamanovch's side - don't be cheap and get an S-class with armor plating, preferably S600
3) cool story with APCs and dogs...

asch

11-19-2009, 06:33 PM

3) cool story with APCs and dogs...
heh, every day something new about my life as ordinary Russkie from remote enough. ) what will i do without MPnet...

Eye

11-20-2009, 02:46 PM

heh, every day something new about my life as ordinary Russkie from remote enough. ) what will i do without MPnet...
MP.net makes you more conscious of your every day live p-)

Afro-European

11-21-2009, 06:16 AM

Putin calls for modernization of Russia's economy

ST. PETERSBURG, November 21 (RIA Novosti)
Russia's prime minister has called for modernization programs and more responsible attitudes among the business community, to reduce the economy's dependence on raw materials.
Addressing the United Russia party congress in St. Petersburg on Saturday, Vladimir Putin said: "It's time for businesses to start working differently. Unfortunately, many are used to working by simple, crude rules - squeeze out every last drop from ageing equipment and get into debt with the hope that the state will provide a shoulder at the last minute and drag them out of their hole."
"A modern economy can not be built on this psychology of temporary workers," he said.
"If we want to live on the profits of a modern economy, and not survive on rent from raw materials, we have no other option. We must recognize that vital factors for development in the coming period will be our domestic resources, optimizing industrial equipment, improving labor productivity, and forming efficient employment structures."
He noted that hundreds of Russian companies have shown over the past year that they are capable of developing amid the most adverse conditions.
However, he said that state support measures will have to be stepped up to save the national car industry, which has seen output fall by more than 60% this year.
The premier urged large companies with government-held stakes to launch programs to eliminate corruption.
"Infrastructural monopolies and large companies with a state interest are obliged to adopt internal programs aimed at achieving global standards of efficiency and transparency, and eliminating corruption risks," he said.

Jiggy

11-21-2009, 10:30 AM

is it hard to not post nonsense?

Jiggy, what the **** are you even talking about....

and yet, you both are banned, lol.

Mr.K

11-21-2009, 11:18 AM

and yet, you both are banned, lol.

And you are not, it's a serious achievement on MP.net please PM Macs. for your gold member status.

Most of decent Russian mp.net members consider enormous scale of corruption as a real threat for Russia. Would you call them as Russophobes, as well?

I just spit my coffee! Decent Russian mp.net members?! I want names!

Eye

11-21-2009, 03:26 PM

I just spit my coffee! Decent Russian mp.net members?! I want names!
I have good day - your seems to be one of them p-)

Jiggy

11-21-2009, 03:55 PM

And you are not

nothing escapes you, your perception is unreal.

sepheronx

11-21-2009, 04:06 PM

fareasterner

11-22-2009, 06:19 AM

Corruption will start to reduce as time goes on. What little people know is that simple education and a decent paying job reduces a lot of people to resort to crime. Corruption is a form of crime that starts at the top and goes to the bottom. If people where a little more educated and had more money, they would not resort to such things. As for the ones at the top, the government needs to track them. They do have an anti-corruption commitee now, but because it was opened like this year or late last year, does not mean they can tackle everything in a short period of time.
Education in Russia still is at descent level despite of liberastic reforms. No need to pay decent wages when there are millions jobless and illegal migrants.
I wonder where they will recruit saint non-mercantile people for this anti-corrupt committee? Profit in every possible way is main goal in market economy. Not long ago in our town was arrested head of drugs control department for selling confiscated drugs. His predecessor was arrested for same reason.

kosse

11-22-2009, 12:39 PM

Russia Ranked No. 1 For Economic Crime
20 November 2009
By Alex Anishyuk

Companies in Russia experienced more economic crime this year than anywhere else in the world, according to a report released Thursday, which underscores the difficulties facing an ambitious Kremlin plan to curb corruption and lawlessness.
.....
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-ranked-no-1-for-economic-crime/389976.html

So much for economic crime being same everywhere else like claimed by certain members.

Difool

11-22-2009, 12:46 PM

Kosse, are you on a crusade or something?

kosse

11-22-2009, 12:47 PM

Kosse, are you on a crusade or something?
Just posting proof to validate my earlier claims.

Atasas

11-22-2009, 12:54 PM

Kosse, are you on a crusade or something?
What is your mission here then?

Difool

11-22-2009, 12:58 PM

Just posting proof to validate my earlier claims.
I'd really like to see that ranking list. I doubt that it exists though.
But no doubt that there is a high rate of economic crimes in Russia. (As in several other countries).
But some of those criminals are prosecuted. If I think of Beresovsky protected by GB with criminal proceedings running not only in Russia I'm a little bit angered.

Atasas

11-22-2009, 01:07 PM

I'd really like to see that ranking list. I doubt that it exists though.
But no doubt that there is a high rate of economic crimes in Russia. (As in several other countries).
But some of those criminals are prosecuted. If I think of Beresovsky protected by GB with criminal proceedings running not only in Russia I'm a little bit angered.
Do have to validate your point here!
Berezovki has done well both financial and getting cover ways- he's untouchable!

kosse

11-22-2009, 01:12 PM

I'd really like to see that ranking list. I doubt that it exists though.

Here you go: http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/economic-crime-survey/index.jhtml
All relevant information can be found there.

About PWC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PricewaterhouseCoopers

Difool

11-22-2009, 01:39 PM

Do have to validate your point here!
Berezovki has done well both financial and getting cover ways- he's untouchable!

What point?

Here you go: http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/economic-crime-survey/index.jhtml
All relevant information can be found there.

About PWC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PricewaterhouseCoopers

Thanks. Need some time to check.

Atasas

11-22-2009, 01:41 PM

But some of those criminals are prosecuted. If I think of Beresovsky protected by GB with criminal proceedings running not only in Russia I'm a little bit angered.
valid point

kosse

11-22-2009, 02:30 PM

Putin’s Vertical of Corruption
By Yulia Latynina

I have been wondering lately: How much of Russia’s gross domestic product is lost to bribes taken by government officials?

Consider an ordinary example — the price of housing. The standard rule is that the price per square meter for an apartment equals one or two times the amount of an average salary. With salaries averaging $500 to $1,000 per month, apartments should cost anywhere from $500 to $1,000 per square meter. In fact, they cost an average of $5,000 per square meter these days. That is five to 10 times higher than they should cost.

It is obvious that the price of apartments in Moscow reflects the amount that builders must pay in bribes to the officials. Contractors must fork over enormous sums simply to obtain the necessary permits, and those costs are reflected in the selling price. Also, the officials receiving the bribes do not invest their income in their businesses (their chief “business” is extorting bribes). Instead, they go out and buy more apartments, only fueling the cycle of ever-increasing prices. Let’s look at another example — airplane tickets. I recently paid $500 for a five-hour flight from Moscow to Madrid in economy class on Iberia Airlines. Before that, I paid about $950 for a three-hour flight from Novosibirsk to Chita. The math is simple: domestic flights cost two to three times what comparable flights abroad cost.

And what about medicine? A pharmaceutical drug that I buy in Europe for 50 euros costs exactly twice that amount in Russia.

These are just trivial figures taken from everyday life, but when you multiply these examples of corruption across all of Russia, it creates a horrifying picture. In the “vertical-power economy” established by Vladimir Putin, bribery accounts for at least 50 percent — and more likely 70 to 80 percent — of GDP. That cost rivals the 70 percent to 80 percent of GDP that the defense budget accounted for in the Soviet Union of the 1980s.

The cost of imports has been further increased by officials continuing to demand the same (precrisis) exorbitant bribes to allow imports to cross the border.

As a result, supermarket and department store shelves have become more empty because fewer people can afford imports.

The 1998 default and ruble devaluation led to a boom in domestic production, but this was not the case with the 2008 crisis. In Putin’s Russia, import duties are lower than the money that bureaucrats extort from domestic manufacturers.

Thus, it is cheaper to pay customs duties once than to pay an endless procession of bribe-taking officials who perform endless inspections on the production process.

How stable is such a regime? History shows that such regimes remain stable up until their leader dies. Spanish dictator Francisco Franco’s nearly 40-year hold on power ended only when he finally died. Similarly, Chinese leader Mao Zedong endured for more than 30 years until his death in 1976. Such regimes cannot end before the death of their supreme leader, nor can they continue after his death.

Yulia Latynina hosts a political talk show on Ekho Moskvy radio.

http://www.sptimesrussia.com/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=30354

She works for Gazprom owned Ekho Moskvy radio. I guess that rules out western backed propaganda.

Timmy!

11-22-2009, 03:09 PM

I guess that rules out western backed propaganda.
Ehm :)

http://netler.ru/articles/images/strelka-1.jpg

Wojtop

11-22-2009, 03:38 PM

Ehm :)

http://netler.ru/articles/images/strelka-1.jpg

Basing on the photo evidence if any Russian has been trapped by Condoleezza it's this guy:
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/09/08/rgn_putin_narrowweb__300x354,0.jpg

Derbedeu

11-22-2009, 03:41 PM

^^^ OMG!! Putin is a CIA agent!!

Timmy!

11-22-2009, 03:43 PM

Putin also got some shiny money from her, eh? :)

11-22-2009, 03:48 PM

Oh the agony of our dear russophobic friends is fascinating :)

No **** there is corruption, thanks for the great inside dudes. I think most Russians would identify it as number one problem and finally it seems that there is a sophisticated and broad anticorruption initiatives originating from our elected representatives, which are happily supported from the grassroot level because society is finally waking up and consiously doing something about it. Thank you so much for the constant concern, without your help we wouldn't know that our country has many problems

Just lay off with the Latynina's, she has no credibility as far as I am concerned

p.s. It would be great if some of dear eastern european members solved their own corruption issues before lecturing others. just a thought

Zarak

11-22-2009, 03:49 PM

great inside dudes.

That's kind of gay.

sepheronx

11-22-2009, 03:49 PM

Education in Russia still is at descent level despite of liberastic reforms. No need to pay decent wages when there are millions jobless and illegal migrants.
I wonder where they will recruit saint non-mercantile people for this anti-corrupt committee? Profit in every possible way is main goal in market economy. Not long ago in our town was arrested head of drugs control department for selling confiscated drugs. His predecessor was arrested for same reason.

Third parties is always a better aspect of a comittee who will look over at a lot of things and would be even more hard pressed when they have another third party looking over them. It is a basic tactic that works even at my work place. I look over people in health and safety (in oppsed to supervisors) and there is a third party watching me to make sure I do my job and correctly.

Not everyone are hard pressed losers with no personal aspect of morals. That is why there are things called "tests" to prevent the stupid in getting in.

As for better education and jobs. Russia may have a good education system, but is every district the same.

And if the jobless had jobs, then maybe they would not resort do doing crime. Think about it.

11-22-2009, 03:50 PM

That's kind of gay.
I am sorry I am not familiar with the latest gay slang, you seem to be quite up to date though

sepheronx

11-22-2009, 03:51 PM

p.s. It would be great if some of dear eastern european members solved their own corruption issues before lecturing others. just a thought

It does not just fall on eastern euopean countries either; Many western countries are guilty too (and quick to tell others that they are bad because of that very same thing). Hypocritical at best. But dont worry, Kosse and his russophobic brigade will say otherwise with links to BBC news or something explaining why Russia is a terrible country. But with no links supporting thier own.

11-22-2009, 03:56 PM

It does not just fall on eastern euopean countries either; Many western countries are guilty too (and quick to tell others that they are bad because of that very same thing). Hypocritical at best. But dont worry, Kosse and his russophobic brigade will say otherwise with links to BBC news or something explaining why Russia is a terrible country. But with no links supporting thier own.
Very true, especially that many western countries have what some would call legalized corruption schemes.

I don't see why we should care about what Kosse says. As we say - dogs are barking, the caravan is moving

Timmy!

11-22-2009, 04:01 PM

Just lay off with the Latynina's
Actually, yes.
Kosse, I understand that you're just a young padawan in this Russia bashing art, so I will help you.
In Russia there's not only Latynina, but also Novodvorskaya. Great chick with wonderful ideas. Also, Kovaliov - not sure if he's Russian, but still - he's your kind of a man.
Actually, you can pick anyone from RTVi channel/Echo
The more variety in your posts, the more it's fun to read them.

User_Name

11-22-2009, 04:01 PM

She works for Gazprom owned Ekho Moskvy radio. I guess that rules out western backed propaganda.

Next time try with Pasha Felgenhauer or Kasparov, i know you like them too:backhand:
Btw, this woman should stay on what she can do good, writing crime and science fiction.

kosse

11-22-2009, 04:03 PM

But with no links supporting thier own.

Supporting what?

I don't see why we should care about what Kosse says. As we say - dogs are barking, the caravan is moving

I haven't said much lately. Jost posted a few articles that apparently were too much for some people :lol:

11-22-2009, 04:15 PM

I haven't said much lately. Jost posted a few articles that apparently were too much for some people :lol:
You keep doing that, as Timmy pointed out - Latynina and Novodvorskaya are a safe bet for future quotes. You do not even have to read the article

kosse

11-23-2009, 07:47 AM

Ingushetia Boss Admits Corruption Fuels Rebellion
23 November 2009
*******

The leader of the Muslim republic of Ingushetia, who narrowly survived an assassination attempt in June, conceded on Sunday that widespread state corruption was helping an Islamist insurgency in the region.
.....

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/ingushetia-boss-admits-corruption-fuels-rebellion/390170.html

tommy00

11-23-2009, 10:06 AM

Just lay off with the Latynina's, she has no credibility as far as I am concerned

Well, if there's demand........
http://ej.ru/?a=note&id=9614
This article,(in Russian though),...is a rather intresting one,.....so instead of attacking journalists, sources,(wich is a trademark of a low intelligent folks),....i'dd like to see a contradiction of a facts, thoughts and options pointed out on this(or in any other) article....

xzx

11-23-2009, 11:59 AM

Keshik

11-23-2009, 12:36 PM

1) Israeli businessman. A very sketchy persona himself.
2) what is so pro about driving up to car standing at a red light and unloading a few magazines into it at point blank range? It was more of unprofessionalism on Kalamanovch's side - don't be cheap and get an S-class with armor plating, preferably S600
3) cool story with APCs and dogs...
-1-he was a russian citisen!! and much less sketchy then thoose putins oligarh mobsters (some jewish too) ,besides put him on trial if you have proof !??!
some of those mobsterz in power liked his club or some females in his club or he wasnt cooperating with authorities in ras-putins russia.
explenation maybe sounds naive to west but thats the sad truth and the true state of russian corruption...you own something somebody in ras-putins kammarila wants? sell it! or its bye bye!:-*$
-2- and thats my reply why people drive with apcs and have hectares of gardens filled with guard dogs.they dont trust even humans.in ras-putins russia only dogs cant be corrupted!
shabatajev was smart ,smart enough to know the rpgs could be bought anywhere ,the proliferation is worse then afganstan!
nothing would have saved him ,not mercedes s-600 ,not merc s-60.000!
they woud have used old rpg-7v with same results and eliminated him if they wanted.when putin come to power, lots of aircrashes in siberia? how convinient! bad weather as usual we can blame!

what can i say,this is not possible anywhere ,exept..... in putins russia!!!

xzx

11-23-2009, 12:46 PM

Keshik is a short name for Kashchenko?

11-23-2009, 03:26 PM

Well, if there's demand........
http://ej.ru/?a=note&id=9614
This article,(in Russian though),...is a rather intresting one,.....so instead of attacking journalists, sources,(wich is a trademark of a low intelligent folks),....i'dd like to see a contradiction of a facts, thoughts and options pointed out on this(or in any other) article....
You want me to waste my time on Latynina again? The whole article is highly opinionated and trying to play on emotions of certain groups of people (I would say those with unstable psychology). Why else would she touch upon a) Nordstream b) Nordost c) Opel-GM deal in just three short paragraphs followed one after another? Thats what russians would call - kasha in her head. I don't bother with this crap. Trust, I have seen enough of her "work" to understand that she is no regular journalist

btw. you solved all corruption problems in Estonia already? I am very curious

p.s. ej.ru - another citadel of russophobic freaks, just what I would expect from someone like you

kosse

11-24-2009, 09:07 AM

Drunk Police Accused of Killing Abkhaz Citizen
24 November 2009
*******

Three police officers have been detained for allegedly beating to death a man from Georgia's breakaway Abkhazia region in Moscow while drunk, police said Tuesday.

Federal investigators said an officer, Anver Ibragimov, had beaten up two citizens of Abkhazia while he was intoxicated and "dressed in parts of his uniform." One of the men had died shortly afterwards from his injuries, the Investigative Committee said on its web site, sledcomproc.ru.

A spokesperson for Moscow city police said three officers were being held on suspicion of murder in the incident, which took place late Monday. The policemen have since been fired, he added.

Moscow Police Chief Vladimir Kolokoltsev also suspended the officer in charge of Ibragimov's unit after the attack, RIA-Novosti reported.

Kolokoltsev was appointed in April when his predecessor was sacked after another attack. In this incident, a Moscow officer went on a shooting spree on his birthday, killing a female cashier and a man shopping in a supermarket.

The country's police force has come under scrutiny as cracks have appeared in the system. Earlier this month a junior policeman from the Black Sea port of Novorossiisk was fired after making an appeal on YouTube to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accusing senior officers of corruption, a claim dismissed by authorities as false.

Abkhazia, which broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s following a separatist war, was recognized as independent by Russia last year following Moscow's brief war with Tbilisi.

Abkhazia enjoys Russia's support, and most of its 230,000 citizens have been given Russian passports.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/drunk-police-accused-of-killing-abkhaz-citizen/390256.html

Mr. Russian white power must have mistaken them for Chechens or something. We've seen how much Russians hate anyone from Caucasus.

Sergei Litvin

11-24-2009, 09:36 AM

Good speech by Medvedev.
Hope it goes beyond than just the speech.
Or it will be the usual "the tsar is good, it's the bad boyare (bureacratic apparatus) who are to blame" :)

Flamming_Python

11-24-2009, 03:56 PM

Mr. Russian white power must have mistaken them for Chechens or something.

Nope, to those scum it makes no difference. If you are from the Caucasus, you are a target.

We've seen how much Russians hate anyone from Caucasus.

Probably less on average than Finns hate Muslims and black people.

kosse

11-24-2009, 04:19 PM

Probably less on average than Finns hate Muslims and black people.

How many Muslims and black people have been murdered by Finns?

How many muslims, black or caucasus people have been murdered by Russians?

That's right. There isn't even comparison. Muslims, blacks and other minorities are murdered every day in Russia by Russians but that never occurs in Finland.

From Egypt today:

Among European countries, Finland is remarkable for its tolerance of ethnic and religious minorities, thanks to the government’s clear and strictly implemented laws of equality and the people’s generally curious and friendly nature.
...
http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=8708

Flamming_Python

11-24-2009, 04:55 PM

How many Muslims and black people have been murdered by Finns?

How many muslims, black or caucasus people have been murdered by Russians?

That's right. There isn't even comparison. Muslims, blacks and other minorities are murdered every day in Russia by Russians but that never occurs in Finland.

From Egypt today:

Irrelevant, the fact that there is an out of control and violent minority in Russia that is as hell bent on beheading, beating, killing and driving all of the people with a skin-colour a shade darker than theirs from Russian territory; doesn't reflect the attitudes of the majority of the population any more than the Islamic extremists reflect the attitudes of the majority of Muslims.

The Russian ultra-nationalists are completely despised by all mainstream sections of Russian society; even among the more nationalist Russian posters on this forum; you will struggle to find anyone who supports their aims or their methods. Lately, there has been a build up of a lot of anti-Caucasian sentiment - but that is largely explained by economic, migrant reasons; the usual bollocks about 'immigration' that many other political parties in Europe are using to explain the problems in their country with; together with the support of large sections of their population. Equally, the anti-facist movement in Russia has gained strength and is clashing with their fascist equivelents on a daily basis.

That Finland is a country ruled by law, with an efficient police and court system, and has had a stable society for many decades means that such crimes are few and far between. However, this does not correlate with actual racist attitudes; Finland is an incredibly homogenous country with little experiance of foreigners as anything other than temporary conquerers. When I read of a thread on this forum, about a crime comitted in Finland by a Black or Muslim immigrant (one of a tiny minority) albeit one born in the country; and subsequently many Finnish posters label him as a "Finn" in exactly those double quotation marks, than I must say it comes as little surprise to me. How many Russians on this forum for example, single out Muslim Russians (who make up some 15% of the population) from other Russians? In Russia you would also get such attitudes among many people - but at the end of the day, Russia is absolutely full of minorities and immigrants, and has been for a very long time; the process of integration and assimilation; largely foreign to European countries, has been going on in Russia for centuries. Therefore, it's not wise to throw stones in a glass house - sort out the issues among your own population before you go lecturing others.

sepheronx

11-24-2009, 05:02 PM

Common misconception that only people like Kosse would actually believe. But there is no point, whatever he wants to say and wants to do (irregardless of how stupid it sounds), he will continue to do it.

We all tried mediating with the man, but if he thinks minority = majority then that where he fails to get the grasp. Take it with steps, once you understand the difference between the two, go to the next step, reading comprehension.

Cops, in many countries, have bad reputation. Are you telling me that these kind of problems only happen in one country? I bet your precious Finland has its problems as well. But for a country with what, a population of 5M, to have problems like that would be more of a problem then Russia with a population of 142M. The more people, the more likely you will run into problematic people.

Medvedev fires military officials after Ulyanovsk arms depot blasts

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev sacked on Tuesday a number of high-ranking officers after two explosions at an arms depot in the city of Ulyanovsk, in Russia's Volga region.
Ten people were killed and dozens injured in separate explosions on November 13 and 23 at the Arsenal 31 arms depot, which belongs to the Russian Caspian Sea Fleet.
The list of those released from duty includes the chief of the Engineer Troops (Yu. P. Balkhovitin), the head of the Main Missile and Artillery Directorate (O. Chikirev), the deputy commander of the Volga and Ural Military District for armaments (V. G. Khalitov), and the acting commander of the Engineer Troops (Col. A. A. Bobrakov).
The November 13 explosions are believed to have occurred while ammunition was being dismantled at the depot. Two naval personnel were killed at the depot.
Six unexploded artillery shells were later found in the vicinity of the depot. More than 1,000 local residents were evacuated from the area.
The November 23 explosion occurred when ammunition was being loaded into a truck. Eight servicemen were killed in the incident.
A Defense Ministry team is currently investigating the incident. Russia's prosecutor general is overseeing the investigation.
ULYANOVSK, November 24 (RIA Novosti)
source = Rian (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091124/156974036.html)

See, not everyone gets away with anything in Russia. Hey Kosse?

Mr.K

11-24-2009, 05:04 PM

Atasas

11-24-2009, 05:16 PM

intelligenzija

11-24-2009, 05:35 PM

Federal investigators said an officer, Anver Ibragimov, had beaten up two citizens of Abkhazia while he was intoxicated and "dressed in parts of his uniform.

that's not your typical Ivan Ivanov name.. ?

11-24-2009, 05:40 PM

@Flamming_Python
^^whole load of numberless statements about majorities/minorities.
would you be able to name few nations that are, in your opinion, having reasonable hopes about Russia's reforms success or @ least nations off equal tolerance towards immigrants in society today ?
Judging from the posters here, I have ended up changing my profile (as per your previous statement- combating extreme with extreme:oops:)
Hehe, I can surely name a good dozen of countries which would like to see Russia disintegrate, but who cares. At the end of the day its up to Russians to overcome any problems that their country is facing

Russia has always had great tollerance for migrants. In fact it has one of the highest quantities of economic migrants coming to the country, mainly from ex-Soviet republics.
Russia is beautifully diverse in terms of ethnicity and culture and tollerance has always been very high.

If somebody is trying to claim that there is a high number of hate crimes in Russia, think again, the percent is very small overall

Derbedeu

11-24-2009, 05:58 PM

\When I read of a thread on this forum, about a crime comitted in Finland by a Black or Muslim immigrant (one of a tiny minority) albeit one born in the country; and subsequently many Finnish posters label him as a "Finn" in exactly those double quotation marks, than I must say it comes as little surprise to me. How many Russians on this forum for example, single out Muslim Russians (who make up some 15% of the population) from other Russians?

that's not your typical Ivan Ivanov name.. ?

:lol:

.....

Flamming_Python

11-24-2009, 06:10 PM

:lol:

.....

He was maybe pointing out the stupidity of Kosse's comment; him having failed to realise (as well as myself) that the perpetrator of this crime; far from alledgedly acting on the basis of his hatred towards muslim caucasians, is himself a muslim caucasian and most likely had different motives for his actions (such as being boozed to ****) :)

Here while we're at it, why go a little further; here's a popular story that is making the rounds about the actions of some young 'Russians' (I mean "Russians") ;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/24/oligarch-sons-supercar-crash-geneva

Oligarch's sons accused over alleged supercar race crash

The sons of one of Russia (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/russia)'s most flamboyant oligarchs were today named as two of the drivers involved in a car race on Swiss roads (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/23/russian-lamborghini-crash-switzerland), in which a pensioner was seriously injured when his vehicle was hit by a Lamborghini.
According to today's Kommersant newspaper, Alik and Sarhan Ismailov took part in a race last week along the banks of Lake Geneva, together with two other young Russians. One of the Ismailovs was driving a £1.2m Bugatti Veyron. The others raced a Lamborghini Murciélago, a Mercedes SLR McLaren, and a Porsche Cayenne Turbo.
Their father, Telman Ismailov, is one of Russia's best-known businessmen, famous for his extravagant parties and jet-set lifestyle. Earlier this year he paid for Paris Hilton, Sharon Stone, Richard Gere and other celebrities to attend the launch of his luxury Marden Palace hotel, on Turkey's Mediterranean coast.
According to Swiss police, the four young Russians set off from the restaurant of a Geneva hotel at 11.20pm on Thursday. They were said to have driven at speeds in excess of 120mph on the lakeside road between Geneva and Lausanne.
"It was like a grand prix," one witness said. The unnamed 22-year-old driver of the Lamborghini went through a red light and ploughed into a VW Golf more than half a mile later. Its driver, a 70-year-old German, was severely injured in the crash.
The Russian was said to have then staggered out of his wrecked car. His friends picked him up and fled the scene. Police later arrested all four drivers. According to Swiss newspaper Tribune de Genève, tests showed the blood alcohol levels of the Lamborghini driver were double the Swiss limit.
This morning Kommersant said the Ismailov sons had left Switzerland (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/switzerland) by private jet and joined their father in Istanbul. The newspaper reported that the Lamborghini driver was the son of a top-ranking Russian official.
Forbes magazine put Azerbaijan-born Ismailov's fortune at $600m earlier this year. His ostentatious hotel opening appeared to have displeased Vladimir Putin, Russia's prime minister. In the summer the Kremlin shut down Ismailov's Cherkizovsky market in Moscow.
The tycoon is close friends with Moscow's mayor Yuri Luzhkov, who attended Ismailov's hotel launch with his billionaire wife Yelena Baturina. Some observers believe that the Kremlin's recent campaign against Ismailov is part of a strategy to oust Luzhkov from the mayor's office.
The Lake Geneva incident has thrown a spotlight on Russia's so-called "golden youth" – the children of Russian politicians, diplomats and mega-rich oligarchs. Yesterday Moscow's newspapers pondered why these young Russians were apparently so much more appalling than their western counterparts.
Dmitry Rogozin – Moscow's outspoken ambassador to Nato – said that the reported antics of the four young Russians had severely dented the country's reputation abroad. "The first generation of our 'new Russians' are behaving like complete prats," he told TV station Vesti-24 yesterday. "We are talking about a golden generation who are not embarrassed to spend €100 on a cup of tea, or order a risotto costing €300."
Rogozin said the behaviour of rich Russians who descend every year on the French ski resort of Courchevel at New Year was now so embarrassing that all the other foreigners run away.
"Our [countrymen] love anything glamorous, anything expensive and anything shiny," he lamented. "The offspring of our top-ranking bureaucrats and millionaires behave in exactly the same way in Courchevel as those who had the car accident."
Switzerland has long been a favourite playground for affluent Russians – as well as for Lenin who lived in exile there before the Bolshevik revolution. Many Russian diplomats live and work in Switzerland. The country is also a popular destination for Russians seeking medical treatment, and a place to hide their money.
Many wealthy Russians send their children to expensive private Swiss schools. Their aim is not just to secure an advantageous education for their sons and daughters but also to get their hands on a Swiss passport – which is granted more rapidly to under-18s from overseas in full-time Swiss education.

Supercar? Check. Oligarch? Check. Private Swiss school? Check.

Kingdom: Russian
Species: Zolotaya Molodezh (Golden Youth)

11-24-2009, 06:17 PM

The three pieces of police scum have been arrested straight away :bash:

As to the young kids in Lamborghini's - I sincerely wish the Swiss put them justice :)

intelligenzija

11-24-2009, 06:29 PM

He was maybe pointing out the stupidity of Kosse's comment; him having failed to realise (as well as myself) that the perpetrator of this crime; far from alledgedly acting on the basis of his hatred towards muslim caucasians, is himself a muslim caucasian and most likely had different motives for his actions (such as being boozed to ****) :)

thank you.

sarhat

11-25-2009, 03:50 AM

How many Finns end up killing themselves by commiting suicide?

Can someone explain this trend?

When I heard about this I was surprised. (I can understand it in Japan - traditions, path of warrior etc)

Kangars

11-25-2009, 05:52 AM

Depression, long nights?

Switek

11-25-2009, 06:09 AM

Depression and violence directed against the person himself can be explained by high rate of alcohol consumption, as well.

ilmakas

11-25-2009, 06:56 AM

Can someone explain this trend?

When I heard about this I was surprised. (I can understand it in Japan - traditions, path of warrior etc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rate

Russia 30.1
Finland 20.1

sarhat

11-25-2009, 07:05 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rate

Russia 30.1
Finland 20.1

so, there is no trend, Finland in common rank

Holycrusader

11-25-2009, 07:11 AM

sarhat

11-25-2009, 09:00 AM

Mr. Russian white power must have mistaken them for Chechens or something. We've seen how much Russians hate anyone from Caucasus.

Defendant get a prosecution already (another two are witnesses for the present). may be max 15 years.
As I understend there were casual quick fight , not white power "revenge". He was unlucky.

btw, victim - georgian from Adkhazia, - very good target for FOXnews.

Timmy!

11-25-2009, 09:01 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rate

Russia 30.1
Finland 20.1

This is old data.
Last year Lithuania and some of its Baltic neighbours (Latvia or Estonia, can't remember which) were battling for the first place in this sad list.
Also, Belgium's rate is from 1997, when things were a little bit better.

ilmakas

11-25-2009, 10:15 AM

This is old data.
Last year Lithuania and some of its Baltic neighbours (Latvia or Estonia, can't remember which) were battling for the first place in this sad list.
Also, Belgium's rate is from 1997, when things were a little bit better.

ehm, in 2008 Estonias suicide rate was 18 and in 2007 Latvias rate was 19.9. Maybe you are confusing suicide with traffic related deaths, this the sad statistic I think we are leading (at least in EU)

Lector

11-26-2009, 08:37 AM

@Flamming_Python
^^whole load of numberless statements about majorities/minorities.
would you be able to name few nations that are, in your opinion, having reasonable hopes about Russia's reforms success or @ least nations off equal tolerance towards immigrants in society today ?
Judging from the posters here, I have ended up changing my profile (as per your previous statement- combating extreme with extreme:oops:)
:cantbeli: You again...

And same thing all over again: generalisation. So should we say that all Lithuanian's are cruel to animals, cause one lithuanian guy thrown a dog off the bridge? It's actually happening right now: "Oh a lithuanian guy thrown a dog off a bridge, all lithuanians must be cruel to animals"
Just couple quotes that are circling around the net about this accident

There's only two things in this world that I hate: People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and Lithuanians.
you stay classy, Lithuania.And there are lots more of them. Do you like it? Do you like when people are scolding your country and people that live in it? I bet you dont. I find your profile location quote really stupid, but that's just IMHO.
Do not judge, and you will not be judged.

Kippari

11-26-2009, 09:42 AM

Okay guys i think that's about enough. Can we get back to the real topic.
Medvedev turned out to be a good man. I hope this trend continues and hopefully Russia can recover fast from the economic depression. I see a lot of potential in the country and especially about the proposed evolution of industry.

11-26-2009, 04:52 PM

Medvedev approves simpler rules for NGOs

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has approved amendments to a law on non-governmental organizations simplifying registration and other procedures for them, the Kremlin said on Monday.

The number of audits carried out at non-profit organizations will be reduced to once every three years. The check list of documents requested by the authorities will also be restricted, and registration procedures will be simplified under the amendments.

The amendments proposed by Medvedev were approved by the lower and upper houses of parliament earlier this month.

Civil groups came under frequent pressure from the Kremlin under former president Vladimir Putin, now prime minister, and were often accused of receiving foreign backing to promote a "color" revolution in Russia similar to those seen in Georgia and Ukraine. Legislative amendments passed in recent years have restricted their activities in the country.

Medvedev earlier also said that NGOs would be allowed to provide grants to certain groups of individuals, in particular Russian university graduates and young scientists.

Ella Pamfilova, who heads the presidential Civil Society Institution and Human Rights Council, earlier said the new rules would concern Russian non-profit organizations, but added rules could also be extended to include foreign organizations working in Russia in the future.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090720/155568787.html

Derbedeu

11-29-2009, 07:05 AM

Dmitry Medvedev's building project

Nov 26th 2009 | MOSCOW
From The Economist print edition

The Russian president talks up modernisation, but to little purpose

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/173/d4809eu1.jpg (http://img43.imageshack.us/i/d4809eu1.jpg/)

“STABILITY” was once the buzzword in Russia; now it is “modernisation”. In reality, there is little of either. Russia’s future is less predictable and modernisation more elusive than either was a decade ago. Yet the shift in language creates expectations of change. And in recent months, President Dmitry Medvedev has been talking and writing of little else.
In doing so, he is stirring ghosts of perestroika in the late 1980s. In April 1985 Mikhail Gorbachev, as the new general secretary of the Communist Party, talked of negative trends in the economy and the need to speed up scientific and technological progress, while preserving stability and political continuity. At times Mr Medvedev’s speeches sound uncannily like postmodern renditions of Mr Gorbachev’s. His diagnosis is relentless: a primitive, commodity-based economy that cannot create prosperity; the lack of reforms; and all-pervasive corruption. And his vision of the future is charged with excitement: a Russia bursting with nanotechnology and nuclear-powered spaceships. Yet ultimately his recipe for change is implausible.
His “plain-spoken analysis of past mistakes is more convincing than his formula for putting them right,” The Economist wrote of Mr Gorbachev in 1986. Much the same could now be said of Mr Medvedev. Unable and unwilling to touch the foundations of the political system that created him, Mr Medvedev has been reduced to uninspiring talk of simplifying Russia’s 11 time-zones and of creating business incubators at universities.
Indeed, there is perceived to be a growing gap between Mr Medvedev’s words and reality. That reality includes the recent sudden death of a corporate lawyer in a Moscow jail. Sergei Magnitsky worked for Hermitage Capital, an investment fund run by Bill Browder, once a loyal Putinist who was barred from Russia in 2005 after feuding with firms close to the Kremlin. Last year Mr Browder complained that a gang of bent policemen had stolen his Russian companies and used them to embezzle $230m of state funds.
The Russian authorities retaliated with a $17.4m tax case against Hermitage and arrested Mr Magnitsky, who had uncovered evidence of fraud and implicated the policemen who arrested him. In jail he developed a severe medical condition but was left without treatment, a fact that he meticulously documented in his diary. Investigators seem to have denied him help in an effort to extract a confession. On November 16th he died of an abdominal rupture.
Mr Magnitsky’s death was shocking, but hardly unusual: many people die in pre-trial detention across Russia, and even more in prison. Even so, the death of a successful lawyer working for a Western company has shaken young Russian professionals. This week Sergei Guriev, head of Russia’s New Economic School, had planned to publish an article in Vedomosti, Russia’s leading business paper, about “whether modernisation is impossible without political liberalisation.” Instead he wrote about Mr Magnitsky. “Without an article about Sergei’s death, talking about all other aspects of Russian modernisation is pointless…Who cares if the RTS equity index is rising or falling, or what is happening with interest or exchange rates, if life has no value?”
After meeting human-rights activists, Mr Medvedev ordered an investigation into Mr Magnitsky’s death and into conditions in Russian detention centres. Prison doctors or wardens may be punished. But Mr Medvedev is unlikely to stop the hostage-taking, corporate raids by state agencies, rent-seeking and corruption that have become part of a system. It is a system that began in 2000 under President Vladimir Putin, when Vladimir Gusinsky, a media tycoon, was hounded out of the country. It kept a pregnant Yukos lawyer and the firm’s fatally ill manager in prison in a vain effort to make them testify against their old boss, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who is now on trial once more. And it is the main obstacle to Russia’s modernisation.
Mr Guriev suggests that the reason Russia has failed to modernise is that its ruling class can pocket rents from things as they are. Serious modernisation threatens them because it would require stronger institutions that would make this harder. This rent-seeking psychology is transmitted right down the bureaucratic chain, with each man taking a slice for himself.
For all his fine words, Mr Medvedev is not an independent politician. He was picked by Mr Putin (who is now prime minister) for his loyalty and obedience. Despite much speculation, there are few signs of any falling-out between the two. Each plays his part. Mr Medvedev is the good cop who talks up modernisation, meets human-rights groups and negotiates nuclear-arms treaties with America’s Barack Obama. Mr Putin, the bad cop, runs Russia and distributes the money, as he made clear in the recent conference of his United Russia party.
Yet Mr Medvedev’s talk of modernisation, even if no more than that, will resonate with many educated Russians, who increasingly believe that their country is heading in the wrong direction. As Mr Medvedev himself has put it, “a need for change has become particularly obvious in the past few months.” Russia was hit harder than any other G20 economy by the financial crisis. After a decade of oil-fired growth, GDP will shrink by 8% this year. The oil price is high enough to sustain public spending, but may not meet expectations of rising salaries and pensions. Real wages, which had been growing by over 10% a year for a decade, are falling. As one Russian businessman sums up, “Putin’s model of restoring Soviet symbols, lifestyle and incomes has run out of steam. Nobody has any strategy or even vision of what this country should become.”
Under Mr Putin the political system is held together by the collective interest of those who divide up rents, combined with occasional repression. If the oil price stays flat or falls, that formula may keep working only if the repression is stepped up. Even that could be problematic: an epidemic of confessions on the internet by disgruntled and badly paid Russian policemen, plus a wave of police violence, point to a corrupt and uncontrollable force. Even a senior United Russian figure recently called the police unreformable; he went on to call for the force’s disbandment.
The deterioration of democratic institutions in Russia since Mr Putin came to power in 2000 has led the country into a dead-end that is reminiscent of the late 1980s. Back then the Soviet Union could not meet people’s growing expectations and the economy was running out of resources. Today’s Russia is hardly the Soviet Union. It has basic freedoms and a large private sector, even if it is stifled by corruption. It also has reserves of $430 billion—not $3 billion as in December 1991.
Yet unless oil prices rise again, Kremlin leaders may face the same choice as their Soviet predecessors did: to preserve themselves (and their country) by more repression or more liberalisation. Mr Gorbachev chose liberalisation. Mr Putin, who believes that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century, is unlikely to make the same choice. But it may prove hard for him to find enough support for his repressive system.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14973198&source=features_box2

edi_

11-29-2009, 07:33 AM

“STABILITY” was once the buzzword in Russia; now it is “modernisation”. In reality, there is little of either.
And his vision of the future is charged with excitement: a Russia bursting with nanotechnology and nuclear-powered spaceships. Yet ultimately his recipe for change is implausible.
Medvedev’s words and reality. That reality includes the recent sudden death of a corporate lawyer in a Moscow jail
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14973198&source=features_box2

Did Breerman write this? Seriously though, what a bunch of nonsense, and what does lawyer's death have to do with Medvedev?

I don't really see a point in posting this 'opinions', reminds me of Fox news. Derdebeu, maybe you should stop posting every little piece of garbage you find about Russia?

Derbedeu

11-29-2009, 07:57 AM

1) The article in question has everything to do with the topic of this thread

2) Instead of dismissing something as garbage simply because it's not in line with your viewpoint, you'd make a much more convincing argument elucidating what it is exactly that you disagree with the said article.

Lector

11-29-2009, 12:09 PM

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14973198&source=features_box2
That caricature is kinda stupid tbh. Soyuz spacecrafts are very reliable, with number of launcher over 800 with very few failures. AFAIK last accident involving Soyuz happened in 1983 when launch vehicle was destroyed on the launch pad by fire.

RIPTIDE

11-29-2009, 12:26 PM

That caricature is kinda stupid tbh. Soyuz spacecrafts are very reliable, with number of launcher over 800 with very few failures. AFAIK last accident involving Soyuz happened in 1983 when launch vehicle was destroyed on the launch pad by fire.
With Space and Astronomy as a pet hobby of mine, I'd have to agree. Soyuz is probably the safest vehicle ever made for orbital travel. Almost flawless track record even if its had about 20 upgrades. lol :D

Mango Madness

11-29-2009, 08:29 PM

The Economist should be read with a grain of salt when it comes to Russia. EVERY article they write about Russia is anti-Russia, from portraying Russia as the aggressor and Georgia as the innocent victim in the South Ossetia war, taking Ukraine's side in the gas dispute, elections, saying Russia is bullying its neighbours, criticising the withdrawal of the American missile shield in Poland, criticising NATO members for not supporting Ukraine's and Georgia's membership, calling on America to be aggressive towards Russia, saying that Russia's economy is doomed to fail, etc, etc.

edi_

11-29-2009, 09:48 PM

That article in one sentence, 'I hate Russia'

:grin:

Switek

11-30-2009, 01:49 AM

As usual, no merit criticism toward article's thesis but a priori rejection and negative labeling.

sepheronx

11-30-2009, 01:51 AM

As usual, no merit criticism toward article's thesis but a priori rejection and negative labeling.

Whatever. If the track record is constant bull****, you can only expect the next article to be the same. bull****.

Kind of like you and your statements. You are perfect for the economist.

Switek

11-30-2009, 02:01 AM

Whatever. If the track record is constant bull****, you can only expect the next article to be the same. bull****.

rofl

Lame excuse for incompetence.

sepheronx

11-30-2009, 02:04 AM

rofl

Lame excuse for incompetence.

Then whats your excuse?

edi_

11-30-2009, 02:14 AM

As usual, no merit criticism toward article's thesis but a priori rejection and negative labeling.

How can anyone take it seriously? And to be honest i don't even know why some bother posting that kind of rubbish.
What would happen if someone would post Pravda's article about the U.S. or some other country? Most would obviously reject it because 95 % of the time it's complete bs, just like Fox news or this paper.

sepheronx

11-30-2009, 02:18 AM

How can anyone take it seriously? And to be honest i don't even know why some bother posting that kind of rubbish.
What would happen if someone would post Pravda's article about the U.S. or some other country? Most would obviously reject it because 95 % of the time it's complete bs, just like Fox news or this paper.

Its only right when it fits their profile. If it does not, it is wrong 95% of the time.

And 80% of statistics are made up on the spot ;)

Holycrusader

11-30-2009, 03:01 AM

Whatever. If the track record is constant bull****, you can only expect the next article to be the same. bull****.

Kind of like you and your statements. You are perfect for the economist.

Why are you even care what Switek have to say... ?
My friendly advice use Ignore function on him.

sepheronx

11-30-2009, 03:03 AM

Why are you even care what Switek have to say... ?
My friendly advice use Ignore function on him.

I don't. I just like to see him make a fool of himself.

Switek

11-30-2009, 03:16 AM

Classic downfall into personal insult level of minor mp.net trolls. rofl

Switek

11-30-2009, 03:17 AM

sepheronx

11-30-2009, 03:17 AM

Classic downfall into personal insult level of minor mp.net trolls. rofl
And you don't do the same?

What else are we supposed to say? Repeate ourself to you? Repetitiveness isn't needed, especially if you continue to live in Fantasy land.

No point in trying to convince you, only just laugh at you.

It's ok switek. At least we all found a good purpose for you.

Wojtop

11-30-2009, 03:20 AM

Its only right when it fits their profile. If it does not, it is wrong 95% of the time.

And 80% of statistics are made up on the spot ;-)

What's even worse is that 100% of phrases are made up on a spot instead of being copy-pasted from Kremlin press releases. The Economist is simply russophobic, anti-Russian and sponsored by large sums flowing from Georgia, Poland and Baltic States through fake NGOs. Their agenda is to starve all Russians to death and build a huge commie theme park in place of abadoned Moscow for westerners to visit, drink good cheap vodka and play with real bear cubs. Their journalists should be treated with some radioactive diet supplements to the benefit of the humanity.

Summed all the factual comments below the article, I love RS!!1! team.
:cantbeli:

sepheronx

11-30-2009, 03:23 AM

What's even worse is that 100% of phrases are made up on a spot instead of being copy-pasted from Kremlin press releases. The Economist is simply russophobic, anti-Russian and sponsored by large sums flowing from Georgia, Poland and Baltic States through fake NGOs. Their agenda is to starve all Russians to death and build a huge commie theme park in place of abadoned Moscow for westerners to visit, drink good cheap vodka and play with real bear cubs. Their journalists should be treated with some radioactive diet supplements to the benefit of the humanity.

Summed all the factual comments below the article, I love RS!!1! team.
:cantbeli:

Doesn't need to. They just need to emply it. Simple really.

Switek

11-30-2009, 05:03 AM

And you don't do the same?

What else are we supposed to say? Repeate ourself to you? Repetitiveness isn't needed, especially if you continue to live in Fantasy land.

No point in trying to convince you, only just laugh at you.

It's ok switek. At least we all found a good purpose for you.

Seems that this lame reaction proves that merit incompetence turns into emotional instability. A matter of maturity.

Lector

11-30-2009, 05:58 AM

As usual, no merit criticism toward article's thesis but a priori rejection and negative labeling.
For me it was enough to see that caricature of Medveded fixing Soyuz spacecraft in that article. Obvious trolls are obvious :bash:

Switek

11-30-2009, 06:06 AM

For me it was enough to see that caricature of Medveded fixing Soyuz spacecraft in that article. Obvious trolls are obvious :bash:
Are you so sensitive? :hug: Poor man. This is when someone takes caricatures directly.

Lector

11-30-2009, 06:16 AM

Are you so sensitive? :hug: Poor man. This is when someone takes caricatures directly.
I find most of caricatures funny, polandball, russiaball etc caricatures were funny too (not all of them though), but this one is plain stupid. I checked few topics in there, and i'll say it again: Obvious trolls are obvious. Nuff said.

Mousepad

11-30-2009, 06:23 AM

Oh sh... Methinks Economist lacks celebrity ****s and gossip, only then it will be whole.

Here goes

“STABILITY” was once the buzzword in Russia; now it is “modernisation”. In reality, there is little of either.

Fail, with all Vlad's failings, one thing he brought fosho Stability. All 90-s this country was running in little circles and shouting, and every day something new, depends what oligarch paid TV today.

Russia’s future is less predictable and modernisation more elusive than either was a decade ago.

Decade ago there was no hope whatsoever

Yet the shift in language creates expectations of change. And in recent months, President Dmitry Medvedev has been talking and writing of little else.
In doing so, he is stirring ghosts of perestroika in the late 1980s. In April 1985 Mikhail Gorbachev, as the new general secretary of the Communist Party, talked of negative trends in the economy and the need to speed up scientific and technological progress, while preserving stability and political continuity. At times Mr Medvedev’s speeches sound uncannily like postmodern renditions of Mr Gorbachev’s.

Apples and oranges, Soviet Union had 0 start-up private money. And Gorbachev wanted reforms by administrative method only, by now Russian private sector have those in ample supply, 70% of foreign investments come from Cyprus (anyone with 2 live braincells will do the math) and who know how much more lay there. Instruments this time are there, but implement them properly, that's the catch.

His diagnosis is relentless: a primitive, commodity-based economy that cannot create prosperity; the lack of reforms; and all-pervasive corruption.

His diagnosis is quite on spot.

And his vision of the future is charged with excitement: a Russia bursting with nanotechnology and nuclear-powered spaceships. Yet ultimately his recipe for change is implausible.

Actually there is no other way, either massive R&D, or FIRE-based economy with screwdriver assembly plants (there are plenty of examples of that kind) that's dead end, leading to loss of forward thinking cadre.

His “plain-spoken analysis of past mistakes is more convincing than his formula for putting them right,” The Economist wrote of Mr Gorbachev in 1986. Much the same could now be said of Mr Medvedev. Unable and unwilling to touch the foundations of the political system that created him, Mr Medvedev has been reduced to uninspiring talk of simplifying Russia’s 11 time-zones and of creating business incubators at universities.

I don't care much about time zones, but incubator system proved itself in past quite good, but it was Beria who supervised it last time, yeah, start sh/tting bricks.

Indeed, there is perceived to be a growing gap between Mr Medvedev’s words and reality. That reality includes the recent sudden death of a corporate lawyer in a Moscow jail. Sergei Magnitsky worked for Hermitage Capital, an investment fund run by Bill Browder, once a loyal Putinist who was barred from Russia in 2005 after feuding with firms close to the Kremlin. Last year Mr Browder complained that a gang of bent policemen had stolen his Russian companies and used them to embezzle $230m of state funds.
The Russian authorities retaliated with a $17.4m tax case against Hermitage and arrested Mr Magnitsky, who had uncovered evidence of fraud and implicated the policemen who arrested him. In jail he developed a severe medical condition but was left without treatment, a fact that he meticulously documented in his diary. Investigators seem to have denied him help in an effort to extract a confession. On November 16th he died of an abdominal rupture.
Mr Magnitsky’s death was shocking, but hardly unusual: many people die in pre-trial detention across Russia, and even more in prison. Even so, the death of a successful lawyer working for a Western company has shaken young Russian professionals. This week Sergei Guriev, head of Russia’s New Economic School, had planned to publish an article in Vedomosti, Russia’s leading business paper, about “whether modernisation is impossible without political liberalisation.” Instead he wrote about Mr Magnitsky. “Without an article about Sergei’s death, talking about all other aspects of Russian modernisation is pointless…Who cares if the RTS equity index is rising or falling, or what is happening with interest or exchange rates, if life has no value?”
After meeting human-rights activists, Mr Medvedev ordered an investigation into Mr Magnitsky’s death and into conditions in Russian detention centres. Prison doctors or wardens may be punished. But Mr Medvedev is unlikely to stop the hostage-taking, corporate raids by state agencies, rent-seeking and corruption that have become part of a system. It is a system that began in 2000 under President Vladimir Putin, when Vladimir Gusinsky, a media tycoon, was hounded out of the country. It kept a pregnant Yukos lawyer and the firm’s fatally ill manager in prison in a vain effort to make them testify against their old boss, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who is now on trial once more. And it is the main obstacle to Russia’s modernisation.

No it's not, China modernising quite good without even 2-nd glance on human rights of some crooks. I don't even want to go to Hitler Germany.

Mr Guriev suggests that the reason Russia has failed to modernise is that its ruling class can pocket rents from things as they are. Serious modernisation threatens them because it would require stronger institutions that would make this harder. This rent-seeking psychology is transmitted right down the bureaucratic chain, with each man taking a slice for himself.

Low and middle end corruption must be beaten in shape by private business, press is a whore of highest bidder, but try to push on someone private dough, and all your rent-seeking schemes will surface belly-up, there are plentu of examples. High end drummed in affordable 10% by harsh jail-times (and don't forget to confiscate all property, heck, with those guys simple fear do wonders, and everybody will cheer jailers, win-win)

For all his fine words, Mr Medvedev is not an independent politician. He was picked by Mr Putin (who is now prime minister) for his loyalty and obedience. Despite much speculation, there are few signs of any falling-out between the two. Each plays his part. Mr Medvedev is the good cop who talks up modernisation, meets human-rights groups and negotiates nuclear-arms treaties with America’s Barack Obama. Mr Putin, the bad cop, runs Russia and distributes the money, as he made clear in the recent conference of his United Russia party.

I don't know why everybody so obsessed with Medvedev, but Putin bashing this stuff way more harsher, with small luck btw, but sh/t get's done anyway bit by bit, anyway i'm not the guy who wants to live in a country promoting "Great leaps"

Yet Mr Medvedev’s talk of modernisation, even if no more than that, will resonate with many educated Russians, who increasingly believe that their country is heading in the wrong direction. As Mr Medvedev himself has put it, “a need for change has become particularly obvious in the past few months.” Russia was hit harder than any other G20 economy by the financial crisis. After a decade of oil-fired growth, GDP will shrink by 8% this year. The oil price is high enough to sustain public spending, but may not meet expectations of rising salaries and pensions. Real wages, which had been growing by over 10% a year for a decade, are falling.

Small effing business, that's the answer, normal country GDP made 70% by it, in Russia only 20%, well i sincerely hope that times of sitting on ass and doing absolutely nothing while getting dough one way or another from fat-State, are over, and people for starters rise they arse from comfy state-provided pillow.

As one Russian businessman sums up, “Putin’s model of restoring Soviet symbols, lifestyle and incomes has run out of steam. Nobody has any strategy or even vision of what this country should become.”

Actually Soviet hymn is way more cooler that past "bingo-bongo" what passed for RF anthem, and no one takes away Victory flags with Star hammer and sickle, apart from it it was done jack to promote SU.

Under Mr Putin the political system is held together by the collective interest of those who divide up rents, combined with occasional repression. If the oil price stays flat or falls, that formula may keep working only if the repression is stepped up.

Huh? What collective interest? Those are bulldogs under carpet, and not at each-other throat only by will of kind tsar "Putin", sadly, for now society is too much ignorant and fed for free, to keep this bunch in check. Moses was running joos in circles for 40 years, not because he sucked at geography, but to squeeze slave from them and let a free generation rise.

Even that could be problematic: an epidemic of confessions on the internet by disgruntled and badly paid Russian policemen, plus a wave of police violence, point to a corrupt and uncontrollable force. Even a senior United Russian figure recently called the police unreformable; he went on to call for the force’s disbandment.

I agree with this senior United Russian figure.

The deterioration of democratic institutions in Russia since Mr Putin came to power in 2000 has led the country into a dead-end that is reminiscent of the late 1980s.

For starters it wasn't there to deteriorate. Bur spice was flowing and nobody cared.

Back then the Soviet Union could not meet people’s growing expectations and the economy was running out of resources. Today’s Russia is hardly the Soviet Union. It has basic freedoms and a large private sector, even if it is stifled by corruption. It also has reserves of $430 billion—not $3 billion as in December 1991.

Well at least those guys figured out to collect quite a piggy-bank, and have a gap for 3-4 years, if reforms are needed, and they are needed.

Yet unless oil prices rise again, Kremlin leaders may face the same choice as their Soviet predecessors did: to preserve themselves (and their country) by more repression or more liberalisation.

Common sense and rule of law, this country needs nothing more.

Mr Gorbachev chose liberalisation. Mr Putin, who believes that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century, is unlikely to make the same choice. But it may prove hard for him to find enough support for his repressive system.

For Christ sake, this Economist is retarded more, than some regular retarded MPnet members.

TakeIt

11-30-2009, 07:17 AM

For Christ sake, this Economist is retarded more, than some regular retarded MPnet members. Man, seriously, that last sentence was all that was needed to comment that piece of garbage.

edi_

11-30-2009, 07:34 AM

Seems that this lame reaction proves that merit incompetence turns into emotional instability. A matter of maturity.

Classic downfall into personal insult level of minor mp.net trolls. rofl
Is it me or every time someone says something to you, you either call them trolls or say that they are emotionally unstable?

Switek

11-30-2009, 07:41 AM

Is it me or every time someone says something to you, you either call them trolls or say that they are emotionally unstable?

Is it me or you have been already once or twice banned?

edi_

11-30-2009, 08:01 AM

Somehow i don't believe that this guy is 40 years old, or maybe couple of screws are missing...

Holycrusader

11-30-2009, 09:13 AM

Is it me or every time someone says something to you, you either call them trolls or say that they are emotionally unstable?

No. Sometimes he call people idiots,morons, retards or stupid instead...
Funny guy.

xzx

11-30-2009, 09:49 AM

Seems that this lame reaction proves that merit incompetence turns into emotional instability. A matter of maturity.

You are the only one here with lame reaction that proves your incompetence. No arguments, no proofs, just attacks on someone who write something what you dont like.

You are typical paranoiac who live in his small virtual world and get in rage whenever someone break it.

You should at least think about some valid reasonings of your words before you attack other posters, so you will not look like a fool.

Eye

11-30-2009, 09:56 AM

No. Sometimes he call people idiots,morons, retards or stupid instead...
Funny guy.
Our beloved domestic sovietofil. Always on guard. p-)

saturnin

11-30-2009, 10:07 AM

You are the only one here with lame reaction that proves your incompetence. No arguments, no proofs, just attacks on someone who write something what you dont like.

You are typical paranoiac who live in his small virtual world and get in rage whenever someone break it.

You should at least think about some valid reasonings of your words before you attack other posters, so you will not look like a fool.

it takes two to dance tango and let´s be honest some strong11!1 members like to dance...

anyway derbedeu posted relevant article as for topics of this thread. Whether you like it or not only a few actually tryed to give constructive opinion on it. Some acted as child and started with lame "western" propaganda instead of logical argumentation.

Flamming_Python

11-30-2009, 10:46 AM

. The Economist is simply russophobic, anti-Russian and sponsored by large sums flowing from Georgia, Poland and Baltic States through fake NGOs.

Pretty much, yeah.

Mr.K

11-30-2009, 10:52 AM

Did Breerman write this? Seriously though, what a bunch of nonsense, and what does lawyer's death have to do with Medvedev?

I don't really see a point in posting this 'opinions', reminds me of Fox news. Derdebeu, maybe you should stop posting every little piece of garbage you find about Russia?

Ah, well you should know that the Economist is always very critical of Russia.

saturnin

11-30-2009, 10:54 AM

Pretty much, yeah.

"The Economist sponsored by large sums flowing from Georgia, Poland and Baltics states"

oh yeah, and who likes fantasy world here...
serriously post link to back this statement. As for topic, is there information on what proportion of GDP plans russian government spend on basic research programs (naimly propsed intensive nanotechnology research and what kind of finanzing is proposed)?

Mr.K

11-30-2009, 10:59 AM

"The Economist sponsored by large sums flowing from Georgia, Poland and Baltics states"

oh yeah, and who likes fantasy world here...
serriously post link to back this statement. As for topic, is there information on what proportion of GDP plans russian government spend on basic research programs (naimly propsed intensive nanotechnology research and what kind of finanzing is proposed)?

Come on Saturnin, it's not that far from fantasy, when i was subscribed to the Economist (waste of money, but looks good on the coffee table ;)), in every other issue there was a full page ad about "investing in Georgia", so yes they do sponsor it.

Flamming_Python

11-30-2009, 11:05 AM

Not that I'm saying that an opposing view is bad. People know where the Economist stands and where Russia Today stands.

saturnin

11-30-2009, 11:08 AM

Come on Saturnin, it's not that far from fantasy, when i was subscribed to the Economist (waste of money, but looks good on the coffee table ;)), in every other issue there was a full page ad about "investing in Georgia", so yes they do sponsor it.

come on Mr.K, there is huge difference between Georgia sponzoring The Economist by large sums and some articles with negative conotations. I would like to see why would Economist need money from Georgia to keep running own business rofl. It is sad that some people see conspiracy behind any article while this is simple question off authors who write about subject. This is democracy you can find thousands of "economical" papers and The Economist is not so bad in comparison with some other garbage.

RIPTIDE

11-30-2009, 11:10 AM

WHos for another round of Poland Ball? :D We'll see who gets upset at caricatures real fast. ;)

saturnin

11-30-2009, 11:16 AM

WHos for another round of Poland Ball? :D We'll see who gets upset at caricatures real fast. ;)

I am all for it and let´s include some jokes about drunken russkies to complete ruining this thread.

RIPTIDE

11-30-2009, 11:18 AM

I am all for it and let´s include some jokes about drunken russkies to complete ruining this thread.
Yes of course and drunken, Pillsner drinkin Czech aswell. :D

Rank http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#) Country http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#) Report[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#cite_note-0) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#) Database[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#cite_note-1) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/sort_none.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#) 1 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Portugal.svg/22px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal) 19.49 18.54 2 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg/22px-Flag_of_Luxembourg.svg.png Luxembourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg) 17.54 15.56 3 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Flag_of_the_Czech_Republic.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Czech_Republic.svg.png Czech Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic) 16.21 12.99 4 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Flag_of_Ireland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Ireland.svg.png Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland) 14.45 13.69 5 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Flag_of_Moldova.svg/22px-Flag_of_Moldova.svg.png Moldova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova) 13.88 13.18 6 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Flag_of_Hungary.svg/22px-Flag_of_Hungary.svg.png Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) 11.92 13.60 7 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) 13.54 11.43 8 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png Réunion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9union) 13.39
9 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Flag_of_Bermuda.svg/22px-Flag_of_Bermuda.svg.png Bermuda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda) 12.92
10 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) 12.89 11.99 11 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Flag_of_Croatia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Croatia.svg.png Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia) 12.66 12.25 12 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Flag_of_Austria.svg/22px-Flag_of_Austria.svg.png Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria) 12.58 11.08 13 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Flag_of_Uganda.svg/22px-Flag_of_Uganda.svg.png Uganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda)[b] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#endnote_b0) 12.47
14 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Flag_of_Slovakia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Slovakia.svg.png Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia) 12.41 10.35 15 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Flag_of_Lithuania.svg/22px-Flag_of_Lithuania.svg.png Lithuania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania) 12.32 9.89 16 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Flag_of_Spain.svg/22px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) 12.25 11.68 17 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Flag_of_Denmark.svg/22px-Flag_of_Denmark.svg.png Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) 11.93 11.71 18 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) 10.39 11.75 19 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Switzerland.svg/17px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) 11.53 10.83 20 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Cyprus.svg/22px-Flag_of_Cyprus.svg.png Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) 6.67 11.52 21 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Flag_of_Saint_Lucia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Saint_Lucia.svg.png Saint Lucia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lucia) 10.45 11.48 22 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg/22px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png Belgium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium) 10.06 10.63 23 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Russia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) 10.58 10.32 24 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Flag_of_Nigeria.svg/22px-Flag_of_Nigeria.svg.png Nigeria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria)[b] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#endnote_b0) 10.04 10.57 25 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Flag_of_Finland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Finland.svg.png Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) 10.43 9.31 26 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Flag_of_the_Netherlands_Antilles.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands_Antilles.svg.png Netherlands Antilles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Antilles) 9.94
27 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Flag_of_Estonia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Estonia.svg.png Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia) 9.85 9.00 28 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg/22px-Flag_of_New_Zealand.svg.png New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand) 9.79 9.68 29 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) 9.74 9.68 30 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Flag_of_Romania.svg/22px-Flag_of_Romania.svg.png Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania) 7.63 9.74 31 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Flag_of_Latvia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Latvia.svg.png Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia) 9.31 9.61 32 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Flag_of_Swaziland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Swaziland.svg.png Swaziland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaziland)[b] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#endnote_b0) 9.51 4.60 33 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Flag_of_Niue.svg/22px-Flag_of_Niue.svg.png Niue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niue)
9.47 34 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Flag_of_Burundi.svg/22px-Flag_of_Burundi.svg.png Burundi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burundi)[b] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption#endnote_b0) 9.33 9.10 35 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Greece.svg/22px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) 9.30 9.01 36 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Flag_of_the_Bahamas.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_Bahamas.svg.png Bahamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bahamas) 9.21
37 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Flag_of_Australia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) 9.19 9.02 38 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Flag_of_Dominica.svg/22px-Flag_of_Dominica.svg.png Dominica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominica) 9.19 7.50 39 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Flag_of_Italy.svg/22px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) 9.14 8.02 40 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Flag_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg/22px-Flag_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.svg.png Bosnia and Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) 8.62 9.05 41 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Flag_of_Venezuela.svg/22px-Flag_of_Venezuela.svg.png Venezuela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela) 8.78 6.67 42 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Flag_of_Poland.svg/22px-Flag_of_Poland.svg.png Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland) 8.68 8.09 43 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) 8.51 8.61 44 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Flag_of_Argentina.svg/22px-Flag_of_Argentina.svg.png Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina) 8.55 8.40 45 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Flag_of_Thailand.svg/22px-Flag_of_Thailand.svg.png Thailand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand) 8.47 5.59 46 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Flag_of_Haiti.svg/22px-Flag_of_Haiti.svg.png Haiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti) 6.51 8.30 47 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) 8.26 7.80 48 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Flag_of_Belarus.svg/22px-Flag_of_Belarus.svg.png Belarus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus) 8.12 5.53 49 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Flag_of_Gabon.svg/22px-Flag_of_Gabon.svg.png Gabon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabon) 7.97 8.01 50 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Flag_of_South_Korea.svg/22px-Flag_of_South_Korea.svg.png South Korea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea) 7.71 7.87