South Africans 'fought in Gaza war'

[Yoni-R]

News (http://english.aljazeera.net/)Middle East
South Africans 'fought in Gaza war'

Efforts to prosecute those who may have committed war crimes in Israel's war on Gaza have spread beyond the Middle East.
A lawyer in South Africa has identified 75 South African nationals who he says were fighting with the Israeli army in the war earlier this year.
Feroze Boda, based in Johannesburg and working on behalf of two local pro-Palestinian organisations, says the soldiers should face court action for their involvement.


This is such a joke... watch the video

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/11/200911113297855257.html

[Octavariable]

Oh, this is a good one, alienate the Jewish population in SA.. way to go ANC :cantbeli:

[baboon6]

Oh, this is a good one, alienate the Jewish population in SA.. way to go ANC :cantbeli:

AFAIK this lawyer is not part of the ANC and not working on behalf of the government. Not that they don't have pro-Palestinian leanings but in this case I don't think it is them doing it.

The guy is an idiot though. Why would a South African Jew in the IDF speak Afrikaans to a Palestinian at a roadblock? How would the Palestinian know what Afrikaans was anyway? South African Jews are mostly English-speaking and unlikely to converse with each other in Afrikaans either.

[Kaplanr]

True, but my SA mates used to use Afrikaans when they didn't want the rest of us to know something, or when they wanted to use cursewords outside the English, Hebrew and Arabic we normally used. Some of the Yanks would give it back it Spanish.

What;s annoying is he implies they're almost mercenaries or thrill-seekers, and not South African Jews who also have Israeli citizenship.

[tercio67]

I think the main problem lies with the fact that while holding SA citizenship they are prohibited from serving for a military other then SA according to SA law.
If prosecuted they could face jail, loose their SA citizenship or both.

[Connaught Ranger]

How easy is it to dub the sound track into Afrikaans?p-)

[LineDoggie]

Wasnt there some issue with South Africans being threatened to not being allowed to Serve in the British Army as it was going to be considered "Mercenary" by the SA Gov't a few years ago?

Sounds very familiar

[baboon6]

Wasnt there some issue with South Africans being threatened to not being allowed to Serve in the British Army as it was going to be considered "Mercenary" by the SA Gov't a few years ago?

Sounds very familiar

Yes there was. It is still unclear what the SA govt will do, if anything. The "mercenary" law has apparently been passed by parliament but not implemented yet.

[deathil93]

fail, epicly... the IDF doesn't let foreign nationals, even if they're jewish, to serve in combat roles unless they live in Israel and have a citizenship... they can ofc volunteer to specific roles that are allowed, but nothing else.

[GB_FXST]

fail, epicly... the IDF doesn't let foreign nationals, even if they're jewish, to serve in combat roles unless they live in Israel and have a citizenship... they can ofc volunteer to specific roles that are allowed, but nothing else.


Mahal does not require citizenship.

[dudski]

fail, epicly... the IDF doesn't let foreign nationals, even if they're jewish, to serve in combat roles unless they live in Israel and have a citizenship... they can ofc volunteer to specific roles that are allowed, but nothing else.
yeah dude Mahal lets... im goin in a few months. :)

[deathil93]

Mahal does not require citizenship.

yeah dude Mahal lets... im goin in a few months. :)


thats what I said at the end:
"they can ofc volunteer to specific roles that are allowed"

[GiladS]

thats what I said at the end:
"they can ofc volunteer to specific roles that are allowed"

Mahal includes combat units.

[Snoshi]

I think we have one South African Israeli on this board.. I cant really remember hes name atm..

[Alfacentori]

Yes there was. It is still unclear what the SA govt will do, if anything. The "mercenary" law has apparently been passed by parliament but not implemented yet.

My best mate is formerly a saffer, he joined the Army Reserves as an officer cadet and was told that he had to send a letter to the South African Defence Minister to get permission and to declare that he isn't a mercenary. Because as a serving memeber of the ADF if he ever sets foot back in SA he can be seized as a 'mercenary', i.e. if he visits family. I guess they are afraid of someone trying to overthrow the govt, he sent the letter but months have passed with no reply.
He is still in the Army but without the permission from SA he can't be deployed or go on exercises to SA and has to be careful about going their full stop.
Which is stupid as he's only 21 and can't even remember pre 1994 SA.

Alfa

[Kaplanr]

Yes there was. It is still unclear what the SA govt will do, if anything. The "mercenary" law has apparently been passed by parliament but not implemented yet.

Does it distinguish between volunteering and being conscripted or otherwise fulfilling an obligation of the second passport?

[loonykev]

This is such a joke... watch the video

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/11/200911113297855257.html


Why is it a joke? South Africa and Israel have had close military ties for many years. If South Africans comitted crimes in Gaza, they should be punished, as should the Israelis who comitted those crimes. There is no doubt that firing 155mm air-burst WP artillery rounds into a civilian area known to be populated at the time, is a war crime. There are probably many others too, bu I saw those WP rounds being delivered on live TV, and I knew straightaway what they were, having used WP grenades myself.

[Sootan]

Why is it a joke? South Africa and Israel have had close military ties for many years. If South Africans comitted crimes in Gaza, they should be punished, as should the Israelis who comitted those crimes. There is no doubt that firing 155mm air-burst WP artillery rounds into a civilian area known to be populated at the time, is a war crime. There are probably many others too, bu I saw those WP rounds being delivered on live TV, and I knew straightaway what they were, having used WP grenades myself.

Be careful, dude. You don't want to be the next "collateral damage" spilling from the Gaza conflict to this forum....

[GB_FXST]

Why is it a joke? South Africa and Israel have had close military ties for many years. If South Africans comitted crimes in Gaza, they should be punished, as should the Israelis who comitted those crimes. There is no doubt that firing 155mm air-burst WP artillery rounds into a civilian area known to be populated at the time, is a war crime. There are probably many others too, bu I saw those WP rounds being delivered on live TV, and I knew straightaway what they were, having used WP grenades myself.

No, it is not a war crime if there is an enemy military objective or asset situated within the civilian location.

Further, the IDF, not SA, has jurisdiction over IDF soldiers that may or may not have been committed violations of the 4th (1949) Geneva Convention.

[Fat Lazy American]

No, it is not a war crime if there is an enemy military objective or asset situated within the civilian location.

Further, the IDF, not SA, has jurisdiction over IDF soldiers that may or may not have been committed violations of the 4th (1949) Geneva Convention.

That's not exactly accurate.

Protocol III of the CCW specifies that weapons are not allowed to be used as incendiaries even against legitimate military targets in built up civilian areas.

HOWEVER, Protocol III is also rather explicit that weapons that may be considered incendiaries CAN be used in built up civilian areas if they are used for purposes OTHER THAN incendiary. In other words, you can't use white phosphorus to INTENTIONALLY burn down a legitimate military target in a built up civilian area. You CAN, however, use white phosophorus as an illuminant or smoke obscurant, even in a civilian area.

Israel, though, is not signatory to Protocol III.

Basically:

IF Israel used WP as an incendiary and its intent is clear (keep in mind if they intended to use it as an obscurant and it had a SECONDARY incendiary effect, this does not apply)

AND

IF it knew the areas where it used WP as an incendiary were heavily populated with civilians

AND

IF we except international law as "customary" even when a given country and most of its enemies are not signatories

THEN it can be argued Israel committed a war crime in its use of white phosphorus.

[loonykev]

Be careful, dude. You don't want to be the next "collateral damage" spilling from the Gaza conflict to this forum....


If by "collateral damage", you mean being banned from here for speaking the truth, that is a price well-worth paying. Anything beyond that, tough! I have never yielded to threats or bullying, and never will. I was fighting alongside many South Africans thirty years ago, if the latest generation of them want to sell their souls to the devil, that is their choice, and they should pay the price if they commit war crimes. I think that their latest constitution precludes them from fighting for a foreign cause anyway. What the punishment for that is, we will have to wait and see.

[deathil93]

Mahal includes combat units.
O' RRY? didn't know Mahal included active combat units, thanks for the enlightment p-)

[GiladS]

There is no doubt that firing 155mm air-burst WP artillery rounds into a civilian area known to be populated at the time, is a war crime. There are probably many others too, bu I saw those WP rounds being delivered on live TV, and I knew straightaway what they were, having used WP grenades myself.


It is not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target.

Even the International Red Cross claimed that there is no evidence to suggest it was used improperly or illegally in the Gaza Strip.

The IDF however has investigated possible improper use of WP shells during the conflict:
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057361.html

[baboon6]

Why is it a joke? South Africa and Israel have had close military ties for many years. If South Africans comitted crimes in Gaza, they should be punished, as should the Israelis who comitted those crimes. There is no doubt that firing 155mm air-burst WP artillery rounds into a civilian area known to be populated at the time, is a war crime. There are probably many others too, bu I saw those WP rounds being delivered on live TV, and I knew straightaway what they were, having used WP grenades myself.


Not anymore they don't.

[GB_FXST]

That's not exactly accurate.

Protocol III of the CCW specifies that weapons are not allowed to be used as incendiaries even against legitimate military targets in built up civilian areas.

HOWEVER, Protocol III is also rather explicit that weapons that may be considered incendiaries CAN be used in built up civilian areas if they are used for purposes OTHER THAN incendiary. In other words, you can't use white phosphorus to INTENTIONALLY burn down a legitimate military target in a built up civilian area. You CAN, however, use white phosophorus as an illuminant or smoke obscurant, even in a civilian area.

Israel, though, is not signatory to Protocol III.

Basically:

IF Israel used WP as an incendiary and its intent is clear (keep in mind if they intended to use it as an obscurant and it had a SECONDARY incendiary effect, this does not apply)

AND

IF it knew the areas where it used WP as an incendiary were heavily populated with civilians

AND

IF we except international law as "customary" even when a given country and most of its enemies are not signatories

THEN it can be argued Israel committed a war crime in its use of white phosphorus.


I approached the problem a little differently:


Under Article 28 of the Fourth Convention the presence of “protected persons” cannot be used “to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”
Protocol III does not define a weapon, such as WP, used for the purpose of creating smoke as an incendiary weapon.

So, if an IDF military commander in the field has a reasonable belief that Hamas military assets of significant value are located within a civilian setting, the IDF may take appropriate action, including the use of smoke generating munitions, to neutralize that asset.

You are correct to note that Israel is not a signatory to Protocol III. Nevertheless, I believe that Israel does follow it in practice. Still, this raises the question of whether a state can be bound by a treaty that it has not signed.

[loonykev]

It is not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target.

Even the International Red Cross claimed that there is no evidence to suggest it was used improperly or illegally in the Gaza Strip.

The IDF however has investigated possible improper use of WP shells during the conflict:
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057361.html

Well anyone who thinks that the Israelis acted correctly needs their head read. Using that type of weapon in built-up areas is morally wrong, oops, I forgot, the Israelis don't do morals, do they?

[GB_FXST]

If by "collateral damage", you mean being banned from here for speaking the truth, that is a price well-worth paying. Anything beyond that, tough! I have never yielded to threats or bullying, and never will. I was fighting alongside many South Africans thirty years ago, if the latest generation of them want to sell their souls to the devil, that is their choice, and they should pay the price if they commit war crimes. I think that their latest constitution precludes them from fighting for a foreign cause anyway. What the punishment for that is, we will have to wait and see.

In your opinion, who is the devil? What constitutes “selling their souls to the devil”?

Israel, like every other state, is entitled and expected to defend itself from armed groups that seek to harm its citizenry.

[GiladS]

Well anyone who thinks that the Israelis acted correctly needs their head read.

So the Red Cross isn't to be trusted? :roll:



Using that type of weapon in built-up areas is morally wrong, oops, I forgot, the Israelis don't do morals, do they?


Civilians were warned in advanced and told to evacuate these areas, Israel sent the warnings by the way.

You are clearly a troll and it's pointless to try and discuss this topic with you.

[Yoni-R]

Well anyone who thinks that the Israelis acted correctly needs their head read. Using that type of weapon in built-up areas is morally wrong, oops, I forgot, the Israelis don't do morals, do they?

so in your opinion, how should Israel have responded to what was happening in Gaza? and in your opinion, do hammas 'do morals'?

[LineDoggie]

Why is it a joke? South Africa and Israel have had close military ties for many years. If South Africans comitted crimes in Gaza, they should be punished, as should the Israelis who comitted those crimes. There is no doubt that firing 155mm air-burst WP artillery rounds into a civilian area known to be populated at the time, is a war crime. There are probably many others too, bu I saw those WP rounds being delivered on live TV, and I knew straightaway what they were, having used WP grenades myself.
Name fits well.......

[GiladS]

Using that type of weapon in built-up areas is morally wrong, oops, I forgot, the Israelis don't do morals, do they?

An interesting opinion about the IDF's morality during Operation Cast Lead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo

[Connaught Ranger]

Well anyone who thinks that the Israelis acted correctly needs their head read. Using that type of weapon in built-up areas is morally wrong, oops, I forgot, the Israelis don't do morals, do they?

Using smoke to identify / pinpoint targets in a built up area is perfectly acceptable, but, if you want to talk about morals, where are they when terrorists launch attacks whilst hiding behind civilians or from hospitals and UN buildings such a schools?

Connaught Ranger.

[Hollis]

There are probably many others too, bu I saw those WP rounds being delivered on live TV, and I knew straightaway what they were, having used WP grenades myself.


You are completely full of ____. I too seen WP used. It was used in Viet-Nam War. Any one who has seen WP in action, knows that was not WP used Gaza. Maybe go back and unpluck your head from your butt. Better yet, go spout hamas' BS elsewhere. Hamas murders it's own people, use them for shields and is a major reason why the Palestinian people pay a heavy price to keep the conflict going in the ME.

[AZZenny]

woot Yay Hollis!!

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

An interesting opinion about the IDF's morality during Operation Cast Lead:

Very interesting; thank you.