Obama says freedoms are `universal rights'

[Ordie]

Obama says freedoms are `universal rights'

By JENNIFER LOVEN, AP White House Correspondent
Sunday, November 15, 2009
[/URL]



(11-15) 23:30 PST SHANGHAI, (AP) --
Pressing for freedoms on China's own turf, President Barack Obama said Monday that individual expression is not an American ideal but a universal right that should be available to all.
In his first presidential trip to Asia, Obama lauded cooperative relations with China but sought to send a clear message to his tightly controlled host country. Just as Obama said few problems can be solved unless U.S. and China work together, he prodded China to accept what he called "universal rights."
"We do not seek to impose any system of government on any other nation," Obama said at a town hall at a museum here, believed to be the first such format used by a U.S. president on Chinese soil. "But we also don't believe that the principles that we stand for are unique to our nation."
He added: "These freedoms of expression, and worship, of access to information and political participation — we believe they are universal rights. They should be available to all people, including ethnic and religious minorities, whether they are in the United States, China or any nation."
Obama sought to find a political balance with China, addressing long-standing U.S. concerns about human rights but extending his hand to a critically important partner on economic and security matters.
"More is gained when great powers cooperate than when they collide," he said in his opening statement.
In one form or another, though, the theme of free expression kept emerging.
"I'm a big supporter of non-censorship," Obama said in the course of answering one question about Internet usage. Given where Obama was speaking, such a comment was pointed. China has the world's largest population of Internet users — and the world's most extensive system of Web censorship.
The government carefully monitors how the Internet is used in China, from what sites are visited to what content is posted on sites hosted both inside and outside of China.
Obama's town hall was not broadcast live across China on television. It was shown on local Shanghai TV and streamed online on two big national Internet portals, but the quality was choppy and hard to hear.
U.S. ambassador Jon Huntsman called Obama's event the first ever town-hall meeting held by a U.S. president in China. Yet former presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush also spoke to students and took questions from them during stops in China.
With a smile, Obama said he has never used the popular social networking site Twitter. But he broadly defended unrestricted Internet access as "a source of strength." And he said the free flow of information, including criticisms of his presidency, has helped by forcing him to consider other opinions.
The town hall was considered a signature event of Obama's weeklong trip to Asia. He was to end his day in Beijing in meeting with Chinese President Hu Jintao.
China is a huge and lucrative market for American goods and services, and yet it has a giant trade surplus with the U.S. that, like a raft of other economic issues, is a bone of contention between the two governments. The two militaries have increased their contacts, but clashes still happen and the U.S. remains worried about a dramatic buildup in what is already the largest standing army in the world.
Amid all that, Obama has adopted a pragmatic approach that stresses the positive, sometimes earning him criticism for being too soft on Beijing, particularly in the area of human rights abuses and what the U.S. regards as an undervalued Chinese currency that disadvantages U.S. products.
At the town hall, one student asked him about the honor and burden of winning the Nobel Peace Prize. He said he is a symbol of the shift in world affairs that his administration is trying to promote, but reiterated that he didn't think he had deserved the award.
Obama said there are few global challenges that can be solved unless the U.S. and China cooperate.
As nations prepare for next month's climate change conference in Copenhagen, Obama said leaders will be watching what the U.S. and China do. He says "that is the burden of leadership that both of our countries now carry."
The two nations are working together more than ever on battling global warming, but they still differ deeply over hard targets for reductions in the greenhouse-gas emissions that cause it. China has supported sterner sanctions to halt North Korea's nuclear weapons program, but it still balks at getting more aggressive about reining in Iran's uranium enrichment.
Obama recognizes that a rising China, as the world's third-largest economy on the way to becoming the second and the largest foreign holder of U.S. debt, has shifted the dynamic more toward one of equals. For instance, Chinese questions about how Washington spending policies will affect the already soaring U.S. deficit and the safety of Chinese investments now must be answered by Washington.
One closely watched test of the line Obama is walking on China will be how he addresses human rights, including religious freedom in the officially atheist nation. Aides said in advance that Obama would raise several human rights issues privately with Chinese leaders, including President Hu.
The White House hoped Monday's town hall meeting with Chinese university students would allow Obama to telegraph U.S. values — through its successes and failures — to the widest Chinese audience possible.
But those hopes had their limits in communist-ruled China.
Obama's China visit features the only sightseeing of his high-intensity Asian journey. He will visit the Forbidden City, home of former emperors in Beijing, and the centuries-old Great Wall outside of the city. Visiting a country's noted landmarks is considered a sign of respect in the world of diplomacy. But Obama aides also have learned that finding some tourist time serves to both calm and energize their boss amid the always grueling schedule of a foreign trip.
Source:[url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/11/14/international/i090920S91.DTL&type=printable (http://www.militaryphotos.net/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/n/a/2009/11/14/international/i090920S91.DTL&o=0&type=printable)

[Switek]

Mr. Obama is absolutely right but still is only a dream for most humans... and long will be. The power of money makes that we, westerners enjoy our rights tolerating that many commonly trusted companies and corporations benefits because of lack of those rights in many countries... Double standards, double speak... world sucks.

[Jippo]

Where is the news?



Article 1.
•All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
•Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, ***, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
•Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
•No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
•No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
•Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
•All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
•Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
•No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
•Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
•(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
•(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.
•No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.
•(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
•(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.
•(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
•(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.
•(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.
•(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
•(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
•(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.
•(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.
•Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
•Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
•(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
•(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.
•(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
•(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
•(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.
•Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.
•(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
•(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
•(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
•(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.
•Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.
•(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
•(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.
•(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
•(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
•(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.
•(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
•(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.
•Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.
•(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
•(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
•(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.
•Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

[vinny_121_ND]

The chinese government cannot give more internet freedom because of fear of giving people the power to think for themselves and be able to be more critical of their government. What Obama is saying is right, but will never happen in China.

[Hollis]

Something like, "certain unalienable Rights".

[2495]

Something like, "certain unalienable Rights".

Not sure Obama's socialist handbooks brought him up to speed on that one. maybe if you left some clues?

[Special-K]

Not sure Obama's socialist handbooks brought him up to speed on that one. maybe if you left some clues?



Well you know, the problem is that it just talks about 'negative rights'......
:roll::|




-K

[Airhab]

The chinese government cannot give more internet freedom because of fear of giving people the power to think for themselves and be able to be more critical of their government. What Obama is saying is right, but will never happen in China.
qft my friend

[Fargin]

Freedom roughly translates to 无

[Zarak]

"Ah yes, [life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness]... Life? What 'right' to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken to his cries. What 'right' to life has a man who must die to save his children? If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'? As to liberty, the heroes who signed the great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives. Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost. The third 'right'?—the 'pursuit of happiness'? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is simply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can 'pursue happiness' as long as my brain lives—but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can insure that I will catch it." - Starship Troopers, Robert Heinlein

As cliche as it is, I tend to agree with Mr. Heinlein. We have rights in America because of the Constitution. We have the Constitution because people fought and died for it. 'Rights' don't just magically appear out of nowhere.

If the people of China, for example, want freedom of expression its not going to be magically handed on a plate to them by the Universe (ala Oprah's "The Secret"). They have to do something to get it.

[tusiki]

If one had sufficient money, he would have full access almost to everything; If without money, "universal rights" would mean merely paper work and lip-service. Compared "democratic India" and "totalitarian China", I have drawn a ludicrous conclusion.

[Ordie]

If one had sufficient money, he would have full access almost to everything

Perhaps

But I know a lot of wealthy folks who feel emotionally empty.

Money isn't everything.

[hulaku]

Compared "democratic India" and "totalitarian China", I have drawn a ludicrous conclusion.

Your conclusion is actually ludicrous, Comrade Tusikip-)

[Othree52]

Money isn't everything.

To the Chinese it is....

Prestige, Influence, and Power is what bucks bring in most societies.

The U.S. has, for the most part, dominance on these 3 principles. (why some call us the only world power left standing)

So, the commies need BUCKS to compete.(that's why they are buying us out and we owe Fort Knox to them)
Money IS their EVERTHING...

TIME magazine (the only reason is because their publication goes on newsstand worldwide) has a pretty interesting essay on China. Half of it is Bullsh*t except the column on Education. Then again, I only read it once today during lunch today. I'll give it another chance tomorrow.

Ordie, don't think I am disagreeing with you because you are the MAN on the Chinese issue on MPN.
Keep giving them hell!

[tusiki]

Perhaps

But I know a lot of wealthy folks who feel emotionally empty.

Money isn't everything.
My point is that the rights is important, but not more important than the access.

[tusiki]

Your conclusion is actually ludicrous, Comrade Tusikip-)
Ludicrous Comered, did the ordinary Indian have access to two meals one day now?

Merkel to India: Stop eating two meals
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=482813

Be pompous when you have 3 meals one day.

[hulaku]

Ludicrous Comered, did the ordinary Indian have access to two meals one day now?

Merkel to India: Stop eating two meals
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=482813

Be pompous when you have 3 meals one day.

stormfront.org. Excellent forum to quote:cantbeli:

Comrade you make me sad.

[tusiki]

To the Chinese it is....

Prestige, Influence, and Power is what bucks bring in most societies.

The U.S. has, for the most part, dominance on these 3 principles. (why some call us the only world power left standing)

So, the commies need BUCKS to compete.(that's why they are buying us out and we owe Fort Knox to them)
Money IS their EVERTHING...

TIME magazine (the only reason is because their publication goes on newsstand worldwide) has a pretty interesting essay on China. Half of it is Bullsh*t except the column on Education. Then again, I only read it once today during lunch today. I'll give it another chance tomorrow.

Ordie, don't think I am disagreeing with you because you are the MAN on the Chinese issue on MPN.
Keep giving them hell!
You said money is everthing.

By the way, you are predominated by brits patheticly in the field of soft power. Don't always talking big. It makes me LOL. :)

[hulaku]

By the way, you are predominated by brits patheticly in the field of soft power. Don't always talking big. It makes me LOL. :)

You picked up this information on Stormfront as well, sexy comrade?p-)

[tusiki]

stormfront.org. Excellent forum to quote:cantbeli:

Comrade you make me sad.
Comered, aren't you sad for meals?:roll:

[tusiki]

You picked up this information on Stormfront as well, sexy comrade?p-)
Where? dear Comered.

[Zarak]

Ludicrous Comered, did the ordinary Indian have access to two meals one day now?

Merkel to India: Stop eating two meals
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=482813

Be pompous when you have 3 meals one day.

Stormfront is a White Supremacist website. Just so you know, White Supremacism is bad.

[hulaku]

Stormfront is a White Supremacist website. Just so you know, White Supremacism is bad.

I am just wondering how Comrade Tusiki landed at that site.:roll:

[Zarak]

I am just wondering how Comrade Tusiki landed at that site.:roll:

Honestly, I'm surprised it isn't blocked by the Golden Shield, since racism/racial supremacy runs counter to the core values of the CPC.

[Ordie]

Both Indian and Chinese posters are blind towards each other.

[LineDoggie]

Perhaps

But I know a lot of wealthy folks who feel emotionally empty.

Money isn't everything.
No it isnt, but I'm willing to trade for it

[LineDoggie]

Ludicrous Comered, did the ordinary Indian have access to two meals one day now?

Merkel to India: Stop eating two meals
http://www.stormfronthomosbukkakethemselves.org/forum/showthread.php?t=489999

Be pompous when you have 3 meals one day.
You post a link to a Neo-Nazi site? to support your case?

[tusiki]

Bad policy, not biofuel, drive food prices: Merkel

BERLIN (*******) - Bad agricultural policies and changing eating habits in developing nations are primarily to blame for rising food prices, not biofuel production as some critics claim, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday.

Environmentalists and humanitarian groups have stepped up campaigning against biofuels, arguing they divert production away from food and animal feed while contributing to sharp rises in the price of cereals and milk products.

But Merkel, whose country is Europe's largest biofuel producer, said the rise in food prices was not mainly due to biofuels but to "inadequate agricultural policies in developing countries" as well as "insufficient forecasts of changes in nutritional habits" in emerging markets.

"If you travel to India these days, then a main part of the debate is about the 'second meal'," Merkel said.

"People are eating twice a day, and if a third of one billion people in India do that, it adds up to 300 million people. That's a large part of the European Union," she said.

"And if they suddenly consume twice as much food as before and if 100 million Chinese start drinking milk too, then of course our milk quotas become skewed, and much else too," she said referring to EU limits on dairy production.

Biofuels, which are seen by supporters as a way to increase energy security and reduce greenhouse gas emissions, are made mainly from food crops such as grains, oilseeds and sugar.

Critics argue there are few, if any, environmental benefits for so-called first generation biofuels. They have also been blamed for increasing grain demand and pushing up prices at a time of growing threat of famine in some parts of the world.

The FAO and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) have said biofuels were "one of the main drivers" for forecasts of food price increases of 20 percent to 50 percent by 2016.

(Reporting by Gernot Heller, editing by Kerstin Gehmlich and Mary Gabriel)

http://www.*******.com/article/environmentNews/idUSL1721113520080417

[hulaku]

^^

Comrade Tusiki this news is dated April 17, 2008.

Do news get to China after one and half years?

PS: I just had my third mealp-)

[tusiki]

You post a link to a Neo-Nazi site? to support your case?

That is the opinion of people. According to some people's point of view, that site doesn't characterised by Germanic, So it's not a Neo-Nazi site.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tusiki http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4463424#post4463424)
I'm curious. Does Nazi/Neo-Nazi characterize by Germanic?


Well original it did. They had their little dreamworld about aryan race and germanic superhuman and slavic or asiatic people dont really fit that.

[tusiki]

^^

Comrade Tusiki this news is dated April 17, 2008.

Do news get to China after one and half years?

PS: I just had my third mealp-)
Is it a invalid news? Comered. :roll:

[Mastermind]

What a pathological liar he is. He has as much respect for individual freedom as Joe Stalin did.

[Ordie]

That is the opinion of people. According to some people's point of view, that site doesn't characterised by Germanic, So it's not a Neo-Nazi site.

Its a racist website.
I'm offended.
Do not rationalize it with your stupid remarks.

You're lucky that you are not banned by now.

[Blue P]

^^

Comrade Tusiki this news is dated April 17, 2008.

Do news get to China after one and half years?

PS: I just had my third mealp-)

not only a 3rd meal of the day, you have a computer too, dear elite from india!!

but how about the other indians? including more than 20% of your population who are on the edge of starvation? do you care about them? compared with a number of 5% chinese facing the similar difficulty, your largest democracy country seems have hit the wall again.

[3rdMillhouse]

How about the right of a citizen to bear arms, Eh Mr Obama? Oh, you're not too fond of that one I see.

[tusiki]

Its a racist website.
I'm offended.
Do not rationalize it with your stupid remarks.

You're lucky that you are not banned by now.

I apologize If you have been offended.

I want to know if the site is legal or not.

[Hongjian]

I facepalmed so hard my glasses nearly broke, when Obama was talking about those 'universal rights'.

There's no universal right in this world. Nothing is universal.

What the fvck does Rosseau and Immanuel Kant have to do with China? These guys lived in the war-ravaged Europe of the 18th century, thinking that the logic of the white man's world applies to everything, thus DECLARING unilaterally that the WOLE FVCKING MANKIND now has obligations to something these weirdoes claimed to be universal.

What the heck?

This isnt even logical for the most retarded philosopher in this world.


This is just plain and simple:

Arrogance. White man's Arrogance. Nothing more.

[Switek]

...

Arrogance. White man's Arrogance. Nothing more.

This fits to Mr. Obama as nothing else.

[Hongjian]

This fits to Mr. Obama as nothing else.

But he was raised with the normative value of an white man's education.

[Switek]

But he was raised with the normative value of an white man's education.

Wa all are descendants of first humans who used to live in Africa first...

Do you believe that Chinese Han come from other dimension, planet?

[Hongjian]

Wa all are descendants of first humans who used to live in Africa first...

Do you believe that Chinese Han come from other dimension, planet?


yeah, but one should not underestimate the power or influence of the cultural diversion, cultivated and developed throughout millenias of separate 'evolution'.

You cannot claim universalism only through the common anthropological origin of the human race of the whole. This would be just plainly retarded.


Update on Kant: He never moved out of his hometown Koenigsberg. So why can he claim universalist theories applied to the whole mankind, while he obviously didnt see the world? Obama made himself a retard in my point of view. no offense intended.

[Switek]

yeah, but one should not underestimate the power or influence of the cultural diversion, cultivated and developed throughout millenias of separate 'evolution'. In 15th/16th China had an opportunity to lead in geographical discoveries and promoting global trade terms. Blame yourself for few centuries of isolationism, not "White Man"


You cannot claim universalism only through the common anthropological origin of the human race of the whole. This would be just plainly retarded.

You're so bigot! If you and your nation were hones what you claim you should reject all achievements of "White Man" like economy, medicine, new technologies, logistic and managing styles etc. You must be the most mendacious nation in the world. China is so eager to copy with no hesitation the "west" but only in 'Universal Human Rights" you defend yourself to prevent your values. What a lie!


Update on Kant: He never moved out of his hometown Koenigsberg. So why can he claim universalist theories applied to the whole mankind, while he obviously didnt see the world? Obama made himself a retard in my point of view. no offense intended.

Irrelevant but I'll tel you. In the same extent like Art of War by Sun Tzu an obligatory lecture in "White Man Military Academies"

[Hongjian]

I blame noone. I just dont accept claims of universalism, made by people with no understanding of one's respective culture.

And that Sun Tsu is taught in Western Academies, well, it's their decision. Noone forced them to. And this should be applied to other things as well. Western economics was adopted out of necessity, not because one forced us.

so each to their own.

[Switek]

I blame noone. I just dont accept claims of universalism, made by people with no understanding of one's respective culture.

And that Sun Tsu is taught in Western Academies, well, it's their decision. Noone forced them to. And this should be applied to other things as well. Western economics was adopted out of necessity, not because one forced us.

so each to their own.


As I said you chose from the "universalism" only those what you want in mainly economy and science but sorry if you want be respected members of the community you'd adopt also other aspects... Sooner or later you'll underestand what must be done to have effective economy and leading science. :lol:

[Hongjian]

As I said you chose from the "universalism" only those what you want in mainly economy and science but sorry if you want be respected members of the community you'd adopt also other aspects... Sooner or later you'll underestand what must be done to have effective economy and leading science. :lol:

So respect comes from copying. Man. China sure is respected then.

No. As long as the country is not occupied by any foreign forces like in WWII or Late Qing-Dynasty, noone can force the leadership to adopt things or any 'principles' in the style of 'if-you-say-A, then-you-also-have-to-say-B' whatsoever. China takes what they want and what is useful, anything else is to be suppressed and eliminated.

Look how the Chinese economy survived the financial-crisis exactly BECAUSE they arent blindly following the rules of liberal Capitalism, they 'adopted' to become strong in the first place: They simply forced the Banks at gunpoint, in the best socialist/commissar-style, to maintain liquidity, despite catastrophic surrounding conditions of dying exports. Now, with too much liquidity and the risk of an real-estate bubble, they force the Banks back to their old behavior at gunpoint. In the same time, their gigantic stimulus package was not used to patch up irresponsible investment-banks and real-estate speculants, but to invest heavily into Green-Technology and infrastructure build-up (also social infrastructure), to strenghten the domestic demand.

to put it simple, in time of growth, they play Capitalist, unleashing free economy. In time of crisis, they will return to hardcore communism for control and damage limitation. That is pragmatism and flexibility - not stupid idealism, by blindly following an dogmatic ideology.


Also, this question of wether the western system is the 'only right' system, cannot be answered so easily...

Even the biggest advocate of 'The End of History by the final victory of western ideology over the eastern ideas in the end of the cold war', Francis Fukuyama, has revoked his claim of western universalist victory by now, facing the obvious ideological challenge of China, what destroyed his beautiful and simple utopia of total ideological supremacy of the western world.
After all, he was just another Marx/Hegel-styled historical-determinist, just with the victory of western ideology instead of communism standing at the end of all mankind's historical development. For these people, mankind's cultural evolution is just like a narrow-gauge railway towards a predefined destination.

And that's gross. :cantbeli:

[Switek]

Wrong, wrong, wrong... You quote just liberal attitude to the market. And your success comes just from the internal demand and consumptive attitude of your inhabitants. But still you have nothing to offer but cheap labor price what comes from semi slavery system and exploitation of the most weak...

Shame on you. The only what you can offer id 21st century economical slavery and pretending you do not deserve basic human rights. I really feej to vomit when I realise what's behind Chinese 'success"...

[Hollis]

Wrong, wrong, wrong... You quote just liberal attitude to the market. And your success comes just from the internal demand and consumptive attitude of your inhabitants. But still you have nothing to offer but cheap labor price what comes from semi slavery system and exploitation of the most weak...

Shame on you. The only what you can offer id 21st century economical slavery and pretending you do not deserve basic human rights. I really feej to vomit when I realise what's behind Chinese 'success"...


It seems the masses in China needs to sing this song;


Arise ye pris'ners of starvation
Arise ye wretched of the earth
For justice thunders condemnation
A better world's in birth!
No more tradition's chains shall bind us
Arise, ye slaves, no more in thrall;
The earth shall rise on new foundations
We have been naught we shall be all.

Refrain:
'Tis the final conflict
Let each stand in his place
The International Union
Shall be the human race.

We want no condescending saviors
To rule us from their judgement hall
We workers ask not for their favors
Let us consult for all.
To make the theif disgorge his booty
To free the spirit from its cell
We must ourselves decide our duty
We must decide and do it well.

The law oppresses us and tricks us,
The wage slave system drains our blood;
The rich are free from obligation,
The laws the poor delude.
Too long we've languished in subjection,
Equality has other laws;
"No rights", says she "without their duties,
No claims on equals without cause."

Behold them seated in their glory
The kings of mine and rail and soil!
What have you read in all their story,
But how they plundered toil?
Fruits of the workers' toil are buried
In strongholds of the idle few
In working for their restitution
The men will only claim their due.

We toilers from all fields united
Join hand in hand with all who work;
The earth belongs to us, the workers,
No room here for the shirk.
How many on our flesh have fattened!
But if the norsome birds of prey
Shall vanish from the sky some morning
The blessed sunlight then will stay.

[Hongjian]

Wrong, wrong, wrong... You quote just liberal attitude to the market. And your success comes just from the internal demand and consumptive attitude of your inhabitants. But still you have nothing to offer but cheap labor price what comes from semi slavery system and exploitation of the most weak...

Shame on you. The only what you can offer id 21st century economical slavery and pretending you do not deserve basic human rights. I really feej to vomit when I realise what's behind Chinese 'success"...


So, what's wrong about it?

People exist to be used by those in power and those with ambition.
I dont care whether the cat is black or white, as long it catches the mice.
So, our wealth comes from slavery? Wealth is wealth. I dont care. The times where we rather starved as communists and refused the capitalist bread, because we are too idealistic/stupid, is finally over.

We will take any cat. No matter if its a capitalist cat, communist cat, freedom cat or slavery cat. As long it catches the mice, we will hold it as our pet.

People who cant understand this basic survivalist pragmatism, were not forced to eat their own children to prevent starving to death. Be happy about it. It's not the best feeling, I can tell you.

[Switek]

So, what's wrong about it?

People exist to be used by those in power and those with ambition.
I dont care whether the cat is black or white, as long it catches the mice.
So, our wealth comes from slavery? Wealth is wealth. I dont care. The times where we rather starved as communists and refused the capitalist bread, because we are too idealistic/stupid, is finally over.

We will take any cat. No matter if its a capitalist cat, communist cat, freedom cat or slavery cat. As long it catches the mice, we will hold it as our pet.

People who cant understand this basic survivalist pragmatism, were not forced to eat their own children to prevent starving to death. Be happy about it. It's not the best feeling, I can tell you.
Irrelevant. My accusation had a direct address.

[Hongjian]

Irrelevant. My accusation had a direct address.

OK.

Then vomit all you want. The reality isnt beautiful.

Funny, how members of a MILITARY-forum are gullible like my 4 years old cousin. I thought, military and war is the best in reflecting and representing the cruel face of humanity and the rotting world we are living in? But surprisingly, this seems not to be the case.

Too much AMERICA FVCK YEAH!!11 maybe? Sure, this youthful, idealist anglosaxon impulsiveness and naiivety left its scars on the brains of the people, making them blind and credulous like some toddler...

kthxbye

[Hongjian]

It seems the masses in China needs to sing this song;

Sang this enough, and killed a lot of people in the process.

China is better off without any Revolutions, Ideologies and Messiahs promissing utopias of justice and heavenly peace, with flowing milk and honey. The last one of those Messiahs killed 80 million ppl. over ridiculous experiments of creating mentioned utopia. Nah dont wanna.

Technocrats. Cruel Technocrats and Leviathans, using the masses to build up the country. This is better than any Song, Messiah, Ideology we can learn from the West.


OH RIGHT!!! Nearly forgot to add. Communism was an Western invention, we adapted blindly. Sure worked just as planned. NOT.

[Switek]

What a contempt of rules of the forum you're posting in... Go scream your racist and hate to others attitude in chicom threads. Sorry to say but here you'll not find neither understanding, nor acceptance, nor respect. Wrong doors.

[Hongjian]

What a contempt of rules of the forum you're posting in... Go scream your racist and hate to others attitude in chicom threads. Sorry to say but here you'll not find neither understanding, nor acceptance, nor respect. Wrong doors.


Wielding the banstick against dissent thoughts?

I like you. You think exactly like us Chinese. We have lots in common, it seems.

And where did I preach hate and racism? I just stated the fact that America and Europe are young nations/continents/political-ethnical entities with the minds of young people. It's absolutely nothing wrong about it. In fact, I, as a Chinese, envy such a youthful and naiive mind. It would help me to sleep peacefully in the night, knowing that there's a God, or some sort of higher justice out there, who watches over us foolish humans.
Please remain this way. Its definitely a great contribution to humanities development. without irony here.

[gaijinsamurai]

Article 25.
•(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
•(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.


^ This is what I have a philisophical problem with. Health care, education, housing, food, clothing, plasma TVs, and X-box are not rights. People should have the right to go out and work to obtain those things, whether they be necessities or items of entertainment. We do not have a "right" to something that requires someone else's labor and resources.

[Hongjian]

Article 25.
•(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
•(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.


^ This is what I have a philisophical problem with. Health care, education, housing, food, clothing, plasma TVs, and X-box are not rights. People should have the right to go out and work to obtain those things, whether they be necessities or items of entertainment. We do not have a "right" to something that requires someone else's labor and resources.


Well thought!

Actually that is exactly why China is still working and somewhat stable after all, despite the still widespread poverty and the political suppressions: Everyone. Even the lowest migrant worker and the most backwards farmer has not the right, but the actual CHANCE to work to achieve his cars, x-boxes and housings.
Thats why they are whoring and slaving themselves in cruel factories and ruinating their health for. Sending half of the money back to their families and saving the other half for their dreams. The dream of a migrant-worker becoming a millionaire. Just like the 'american dream', only without the 'rights' and 'guarantees' for success, and the 'backup' for failure.

But in this case, China is a strictly Meritocratian society. You get, what you worked for. Even a farmer can become an Emperor with wits, willpower and unscrupulousness. Mao and several other Emperors are the best proof for this. And there ARE poor Chinese farmers who actually succeded in their 'Chinese Dream', now buying a dozen Hummers and enjoying ten concubines each night.

But if you fail. You will die.


Simple as that.

[Hollis]

Sang this enough, and killed a lot of people in the process.

China is better off without any Revolutions, Ideologies and Messiahs promissing utopias of justice and heavenly peace, with flowing milk and honey. The last one of those Messiahs killed 80 million ppl. over ridiculous experiments of creating mentioned utopia. Nah dont wanna.

Technocrats. Cruel Technocrats and Leviathans, using the masses to build up the country. This is better than any Song, Messiah, Ideology we can learn from the West.


OH RIGHT!!! Nearly forgot to add. Communism was an Western invention, we adapted blindly. Sure worked just as planned. NOT.


The lyrics was lost in the revolutionary process. The ideas were neat but the implementation was wrong. Like the American experiment over 200 years ago humanity has a long ways to go where freedom will prevail over repression. We still need to take steps forward.

Chinese communism was not the same as Western Communism, if you remember one of the schisms between Soviet Union and PRDC. Russia was classified as a proletarian revolution and China was a peasant revolution. China as with Russia suffered from the same problem, both systems allowed a single group to amass too much power and control everything in that their respective country with out any checks or balancing factors.

Instead of looking at it as a western made problem, look at itn on a global level. We all can learn from each others mistakes and advancements and that could improve all of our lives. Freedom can not truly exist if there is someone in bondage anywhere.

[Switek]

Wielding the banstick against dissent thoughts?

I like you. You think exactly like us Chinese. We have lots in common, it seems.

And where did I preach hate and racism? I just stated the fact that America and Europe are young nations/continents/political-ethnical entities with the minds of young people. It's absolutely nothing wrong about it. In fact, I, as a Chinese, envy such a youthful and naiive mind. It would help me to sleep peacefully in the night, knowing that there's a God, or some sort of higher justice out there, who watches over us foolish humans.
Please remain this way. Its definitely a great contribution to humanities development. without irony here.

Post by post you just deny this:


Article 33. All persons holding the nationality of the People's Republic of China are citizens of the People's Republic of China. All citizens of the People's Republic of China are equal before the law. Every citizen enjoys the rights and at the same time must perform the duties prescribed by the Constitution and the law.
Article 34. All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, ***, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status, or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law.
Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.
Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.
Article 37. The freedom of person of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. No citizen may be arrested except with the approval or by decision of a people's procuratorate or by decision of a people's court, and arrests must be made by a public security organ. Unlawful deprivation or restriction of citizens' freedom of person by detention or other means is prohibited; and unlawful search of the person of citizens is prohibited. Article 38. The personal dignity of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. Insult, libel, false charge or frame-up directed against citizens by any means is prohibited.
Article 39. The home of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. Unlawful search of, or intrusion into, a citizen's home is prohibited.
Article 40. The freedom and privacy of correspondence of citizens of the People's Republic of China are protected by law. No organization or individual may, on any ground, infringe upon the freedom and privacy of citizens' correspondence except in cases where, to meet the needs of state security or of investigation into criminal offences, public security or procuratorial organs are permitted to censor correspondence in accordance with procedures prescribed by law.
Article 41. Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the right to criticize and make suggestions to any state organ or functionary. Citizens have the right to make to relevant state organs complaints and charges against, or exposures of, violation of the law or dereliction of duty by any state organ or functionary; but fabrication or distortion of facts with the intention of libel or frame-up is prohibited. In case of complaints, charges or exposures made by citizens, the state organ concerned must deal with them in a responsible manner after ascertaining the facts. No one may suppress such complaints, charges and exposures, or retaliate against the citizens making them. Citizens who have suffered losses through infringement of their civil rights by any state organ or functionary have the right to compensation in accordance with the law.
Article 42. Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the right as well as the duty to work. Using various channels, the state creates conditions for employment, strengthens labour protection, improves working conditions and, on the basis of expanded production, increases remuneration for work and social benefits. Work is the glorious duty of every able-bodied citizen. All working people in state enterprises and in urban and rural economic collectives should perform their tasks with an attitude consonant with their status as masters of the country. The state promotes socialist labour emulation, and commends and rewards model and advanced workers. The state encourages citizens to take part in voluntary labour. The state provides necessary vocational training to citizens before they are employed.
Article 43. Working people in the People's Republic of China have the right to rest. The state expands facilities for rest and recuperation of working people, and prescribes working hours and vacations for workers and staff.
Article 44. The state prescribes by law the system of retirement for workers and staff in enterprises and undertakings and for functionaries of organs of state. The livelihood of retired personnel is ensured by the state and society.
Article 45. Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the right to material assistance from the state and society when they are old, ill or disabled. The state develops the social insurance, social relief and medical and health services that are required to enable citizens to enjoy this right. The state and society ensure the livelihood of disabled members of the armed forces, provide pensions to the families of martyrs and give preferential treatment to the families of military personnel. The state and society help make arrangements for the work, livelihood and education of the blind, deaf-mute and other handicapped citizens.
Article 46. Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the duty as well as the right to receive education. The state promotes the all-round moral, intellectual and physical development of children and young people.
Article 47. Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the freedom to engage in scientific research, literary and artistic creation and other cultural pursuits. The state encourages and assists creative endeavours conducive to the interests of the people made by citizens engaged in education, science, technology, literature, art and other cultural work.
Article 48. Women in the People's Republic of China enjoy equal rights with men in all spheres of life, political, economic, cultural and social, and family life. The state protects the rights and interests of women, applies the principle of equal pay for equal work for men and women alike and trains and selects cadres from among women.
Article 49. Marriage, the family, and mother and child are protected by the state. Both husband and wife have the duty to practise family planning. Parents have the duty to rear and educate their minor children, and children who have come of age have the duty to support and assist their parents. Violation of the freedom of marriage is prohibited. Maltreatment of old people, women and children is prohibited.
Article 50. The People's Republic of China protects the legitimate rights and interests of Chinese nationals residing abroad and protects the lawful rights and interests of returned overseas Chinese and of the family members of Chinese nationals residing abroad.
Article 51. The exercise by citizens of the People's Republic of China of their freedoms and rights may not infringe upon the interests of the state, of society and of the collective, or upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens.
Article 52. It is the duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to safeguard the unity of the country and the unity of all its nationalities.
Article 53. Citizens of the People's Republic of China must abide by the constitution and the law, keep state secrets, protect public property and observe labour discipline and public order and respect social ethics.
Article 54. It is the duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to safeguard the security, honour and interests of the motherland; they must not commit acts detrimental to the security, honour and interests of the motherland.
Article 55. It is the sacred obligation of every citizen of the People's Republic of China to defend the motherland and resist aggression. It is the honourable duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to perform military service and join the militia in accordance with the law.
Article 56. It is the duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to pay taxes in accordance with the law.


You have such laws in your constitution, Why the hell you deny it?

[Hongjian]

Further speaking of 'Rights', I actually have to observe this in a more 'natural' manner.

Since China is still a developing country, it would be more appropriate to speak about 'Needs', instead of well-developed 'Rights', which is far too early to speak of.

In this fashion, I have to introduce Abraham Maslow into this discussion.
Well, I know. He's not really beyond controversy in the academic world, but his advocaded 'Pyramid of Needs' is still widely accepted.

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6684/maslowpyramid.jpg


As one can see, China just achieved the second-to-third basic-level of societal development. And even this, not for everyone.

So already preparing to jump onto the peak of that pyramid, is both stupid and hazardous, risking all four levels to collapse under the weight of something, the unfinished foundation isnt even made for.

[Hongjian]

Post by post you just deny this:



You have such laws in your constitution, Why the hell you deny it?


Because laws arent followed in my country. By noone. Not by the ordinary people and obviously not by the enforcers of these laws.

Laws only are meant for people, who are out of the stage of achieving the basic necessities for survival, ie. a fully developed country.

I know it clearly. After all, I studied law in Germany. Back then, we called this the Hobbesian 'Natural State' of humanity of 'Bellum omni contra omnes'. In such a natural state, noone can count on anything save his own skills and wits to survive. Not untill, realistically speaking, some sort of consensus and 'social contract' was established by those 'Wolves' (Lupus), freely giving up on their freedom to the 'Leviathan', for the sake of peace and stability. Thus, moving out of that natural state.

Laws can only be effectively enforced, and thus respected, when the development reached a certain, critical level.
More about this, in my previous post.

[Mastermind]

Freedom - We have all a different concept of it...why? Because freedom is an individual concept...not a universal one. In order to define "freedom" you first have to define the opposite of it..we might think of that opposite as slavery.

There are many kinds of slavery. When we think of loss of freedom we may define "slavery" as an abstract or as a physical reality. A chained dog has a degree of freedom within the limitations defined by the length of its chain. So, also, a human, born to a tribe, has freedom only as defined by the set of rules that are set by the tribe. A member of a religious sect, raised to deeply believe in the dogma of that religion is confined emotionally and spiritually by the learned belief system.

Everyone is a slave to some degree...laws, rules, family, traditions, religion, politics, nationality, language, personal discipline, geography all limit the individual to a refined and very definitive form of enslavement, forcing the individual away from true and absolute freedom.

In the context of how Obama is expressing "universal freedom" we can see a very narrow limitation of human behavior which is limited by his own definiton of power. Individual power necessiarly insists on some degrees of enslavement, to a high degree, of the individuals under the influence of that power. Obama, being a person who aggressively gathers power over others, uses the entire spectrum of enslaving tools to insure the continued expansion of his power.

No person of great power can possibly define freedom for individuals. Nor can that person express a credible definition of "Universal Freedoms" except in the narrow limitations of protection for his own power. Freedom, by definition, limits power.

When we think of true freedom, especially "Universal Freedom" we can only express the far limits of that kind of freedom as anarchy. Anarchy is the penultimate antitheses of organized power...that is as expressed by Obama, "Universal Control" of others.

The man is simply incapable of understanding such a concept as "Universal Freedom" since he speaks from and is defined by, a massive power structure he has immersed himself in.

[Hollis]

I would use a more simple narrowly defined definition for the word, "Freedom'.

Choice and control is part of it. A person being under control of another person is not being free. It has to given equally, in slavery a person does not have a choice. Wage slavery is not so much a person placing another in bondage, but a work system that keeps a person in bondage. There is no such sense of freedom, if we say freedom is a absolute individual choice. All of our choices are contingent on the freedoms of others. "My rights end, where yours begin", concept.

Anarchy is not freedom, it in itself is as repressive as a totalitarian government.

[Hongjian]

Anarchy is not freedom, it in itself is as repressive as a totalitarian government.


Somewhat right. Thomas Hobbes calls it the 'Natural Condition' of Humanity.

A war every man gainst every man.

But, in this sense, it's not really 'repressive'. Your freedom is realistically only limited by your own ability to survive the attempts of others to kill you.
But you can do anything you want in such a 'non-system'. There are no normative factors or bindings, hindering one to 'live' one's freedom.

Just, "[...]the life of man" is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short[...]" in such a condition...


EDIT:
So in this Hobbesian sense; A state, no matter if its a democratic one or a dictatorship, is automatically an enemy of freedom.
Only the degree of being an enemy, is varying. And only this degree can be realistically discussed by Politicians such as Obama.
Though one should not forget; the reduction of this antagonism in question is coupled with- and based on the factors of actual societal development. Not vice versa.

[Switek]

...

Laws can only be effectively enforced, and thus respected, when the development reached a certain, critical level.
...


BS! The liberating movement in Poland got new energy as the result of of signing by Polish communist Stage II - the Helsinki Final Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords) which was signed by the 35 participating States during Stage III, which took place in Finlandia Hall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandia_Hall) from July 30 to August 1, 1975.

Some people, against the majority believed that Poland must obey laws they signed...

My opinion is follow... Human universal laws are not applicable for Chinese as long as they allow to be fvcked by government which abuses internal laws and Chinese Constitution. It has nothing to do with culture or phase of development of needs but sad fact that most Chinese follow the path given by government ad corrupt many of them.

[Hollis]

So in this Hobbesian sense; A state, no matter if its a democratic one or a dictatorship, is automatically an enemy of freedom.
Only the degree of being an enemy, is varying. And only this degree can be realistically discussed by Politicians such as Obama.
Though one should not forget; the reduction of this antagonism in question is coupled with- and based on the factors of actual societal development. Not vice versa.


The US constitution included the Bill of Rights, those are individual rights to protect the citizens from the state. The Idea of Checks and Balances was so no one part can take complete control over the state thereby preventing a dictatorship. Basically the founders of the US did not trust government and frame the constitution based on that distrust.

It is a matter of self interest, the primary interest of the state is the state and that interest is the enemy of the people/freedom.

[Hongjian]

BS! The liberating movement in Poland got new energy as the result of of signing by Polish communist Stage II - the Helsinki Final Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords) which was signed by the 35 participating States during Stage III, which took place in Finlandia Hall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandia_Hall) from July 30 to August 1, 1975.

Some people, against the majority believed that Poland must obey laws they signed...

My opinion is follow... Human universal laws are not applicable for Chinese as long as they allow to be fvcked by government which abuses internal laws and Chinese Constitution. It has nothing to do with culture or phase of development of needs but sad fact that most Chinese follow the path given by government ad corrupt many of them.


I respect your opinion. If only for the fact that i wish you to remain as you are.

One should not forget that Poland has a rich tradition as a country, who's always seeking and fighting for independence and freedom. The whole mentality is one of a brave warrior and fighter for something they didnt have for many periods in history. Of course such a mentality is an ideal soil for liberal thinking and western ideals. Nothing wrong about it. Actually - congratulations!

China is nothing like this. We are a millenias-old, war ravaged empire, build on the blood and the bones of slaughtered 'innocent' people. Our very symbol of the empire, The Great-Wall of China, is actually the longest massgrave in the world, constructed out of the lunatic mind of an totalitarian Emperor, who wanted to set himself a memorial for his achievement of uniting a realm, forged with the blood and the flesh of its people. Involuntarily perhabs.
Build on a legacy, created by him, Dynasties over Dynasties continued this bloodied path of governance, creating an unshakeable Imperative, that is even anchored in our daily language and behavior: With the effect, that even when the communist will all die off tomorrow, the 'freedom fighters' of today, will mount a new terror regime themselves to rule this land, as it has never changed since the first Emperor.

THIS is our cultural base. Not very good for western liberal ideals, if you ask me.

[Switek]

--- China is nothing like this. We are a millenias-old, war ravaged empire, build on the blood and the bones of slaughtered 'innocent' people. ---
The concept of justice is universal. Go to country to randomly chosen village in Mainland talk to people - you'll get universal code what's good or wrong and surprisingly will be similar to th concept of morality of inhabitants of the most backwarded Polish village or half abandoned one in former GDR (DDR).

As a humans we are the same in 99,9999% considering genotype, and many others factors. We share the same basic concept of morality and rights. The civilization level of development is, in fact nothing really vital.

Think about it.

[Hongjian]

The concept of justice is universal. Go to country to randomly chosen village in Mainland talk to people - you'll get universal code what's good or wrong and surprisingly will be similar to th concept of morality of inhabitants of the most backwarded Polish village or half abandoned one in former GDR (DDR).

As a humans we are the same in 99,9999% considering genotype, and many others factors. We share the same basic concept of morality and rights. The civilization level of development is, in fact nothing really vital.

Think about it.


Yeah. Thought about it. Really hard and I couldnt sleep afterwards.

Not because it's wrong, but because the reality doesent look like this.

You know what Immanuel Kant said about the human mind?

It's the only part in the physical world, that can actually achieve freedom and absolute independence from outwards factors. Even when most people cannot achieve it at all. But at least it's possible.

So, what does this statement I totally agree with, tells us?

What people think and imagine can be as far from reality as anything can be. People can imagine unapplicable theories about how the world should work. People can imagine utopias over and over. People can think of things, never be able to see the light of the real world.

We, as physical entities can only move within the tight frame-work of physical reality. But our minds are able to break through even this unbreakable barrier.

So, of course there are lots of mainlanders sharing sympathy towards 'universal-values' in their minds, wishes, hopes and spoken words. But the physical reality is something, that cannot be broken, since this physical reality is based and connected with all these cultural, political, historical, economical and evolutional factors you claim to be insignificant.

And on top of that, it's not that we didnt try to apply those hopes onto reality. It just failed every time we tried, each time resulting into massive death, civil war, foreign invasions, phases of weakness and chaos.

Dreams cannot come true. Sorry to tell you.

[Switek]

Yeah. Thought about it. Really hard and I couldnt sleep afterwards.

Not because it's wrong, but because the reality doesent look like this.

You know what Immanuel Kant said about the human mind?

It's the only part in the physical world, that can actually achieve freedom and absolute independence from outwards factors. Even when most people cannot achieve it at all. But at least it's possible.

So, what does this statement I totally agree with, tells us?

What people think and imagine can be as far from reality as anything can be. People can imagine unapplicable theories about how the world should work. People can imagine utopias over and over. People can think of things, never be able to see the light of the real world.

We, as physical entities can only move within the tight frame-work of physical reality. But our minds are able to break through even this unbreakable barrier.

So, of course there are lots of mainlanders sharing sympathy towards 'universal-values' in their minds, wishes, hopes and spoken words. But the physical reality is something, that cannot be broken, since this physical reality is based and connected with all these cultural, political, historical, economical and evolutional factors.

And on top of that, it's not that we didnt try to apply those hopes onto reality. It just failed every time we tried, each time resulting into massive death, civil war, foreign invasions, phases of weakness and chaos.

Dreams cannot come true. Sorry to tell you.

You went to too sophisticated attempt of explanation. I guess that 90-95% of humanity has no clue who Immanuel Kant is or was... but 99% are able to distinguish between evil and good. 1% is statistical psycho and sociopaths

[Hongjian]

Of course noone of importance know who he is, but this statement is at least right for the time being. There is theory and there's praxis.

The best example would be the Communist Ideology, we both know and love.

Born out of the idealist imagination of a jewish liberal intelligentsia, with the ideal, utopian world of justice and equality in mind, it actually resulted into one of the big catastrophes of mankind, when applied into the physical reality with all it's (at least for the thinker) 'insignificant' factors such as human nature, societal mentality and culture. So, lastly, it remains as an impossible utopia for mankind. Of course it also has its uses though, as HOLLiS posted with the Song: As the perfect, revolutionary ideology to achieve 'change'. Whatever it might be.

Of course 'people like what is good'. duh. It's without question that people like freedom and like 'to live peacefully' without the danger by anyone.
But exactly these two, seemingly similiar wishes, are actually conflicting themselves.

As I stated before, according to Hobbes, and according to the real world expierience, freedom is just freedom. Not peace. Total freedom is the war of every man against every man.
And peace is only achievable, if those warring mens are either voluntarily giving up portions of their freedom in exchange of peace, or failing that, forcibly taken away by a superior force (for example the state) for the sake of stopping this war.

And this now, is when the culture, mentality, development and history kicks into the equation.
To achieve this common, or real universal goal of freedom and peace, each country and each culture must find its own solution. Its own method of dealing with this fragile ballance between peace and freedom, taking into account all possible factors.

And obviously the outcome is always different, not necessarily successful.


EDIT:

Also speaking of Evil and Good. Hah. Our discussion here shows exactly that people's definition of Evil and Good are NOT identical.

My definition of 'Good' bothers you, understandably. Your definition of 'Good' is the absolute 'Evil' to me.
The world isnt as easy as this.

[Mastermind]

I would use a more simple narrowly defined definition for the word, "Freedom'.

Choice and control is part of it. A person being under control of another person is not being free. It has to given equally, in slavery a person does not have a choice. Wage slavery is not so much a person placing another in bondage, but a work system that keeps a person in bondage. There is no such sense of freedom, if we say freedom is a absolute individual choice. All of our choices are contingent on the freedoms of others. "My rights end, where yours begin", concept.

Anarchy is not freedom, it in itself is as repressive as a totalitarian government.
In the largest sense, you define anarchy correctly...But, from the anarchist's point of view, he is seeking the ability to express his power over that of the state...thus, ultimate individual freedom....to hell with everyone else...so, from everyone else points of view, it is just as you have stated.

[TheMiddlePath]

What about Asian Values ?

Predisposition towards single-party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state) rule rather than political pluralism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_pluralism)
Preference for social (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social) harmony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony) and consensus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus) as opposed to confrontation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confrontation) and dissent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissent)
Concern with socio-economic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic) well-being instead of civil liberties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_liberties) and human rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights)
Preference for the welfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare) and collective well-being of the community over individual rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_rights)
Loyalty and respect towards all forms of authority including parents, teachers and government
Collectivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism) and Communitarism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communitarism) over Individualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism) and Liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism)
Authoritarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian) governments (which have certain responsibilities as well as privileges) as opposed to liberal democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy) governments

[Hongjian]

What about Asian Values ?

Predisposition towards single-party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-party_state) rule rather than political pluralism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_pluralism)
Preference for social (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social) harmony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony) and consensus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus) as opposed to confrontation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confrontation) and dissent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissent)
Concern with socio-economic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic) well-being instead of civil liberties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_liberties) and human rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights)
Preference for the welfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare) and collective well-being of the community over individual rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_rights)
Loyalty and respect towards all forms of authority including parents, teachers and government
Collectivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism) and Communitarism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communitarism) over Individualism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism) and Liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism)
Authoritarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian) governments (which have certain responsibilities as well as privileges) as opposed to liberal democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy) governments




Truth.

Just add:

8. The development and preference of flexible and highly bendable 'situational-laws', common laws and 'emperor's mercy' over codified and warranted laws and rights.

9. Different contractual understanding, which is generally more like a 'conditional declaration of intent', unlike the western/roman concept of a stringent, unshakeble contract including penalties for breaking it.

[manberries]

The freedoms in the US constitution are stated freedoms from government intervention upon those ideas specifically stated. Thomas Jefferson said that while each of these ideas should be free from government control, it is the job of the people to use their moral punishments and personal power to keep these freedoms from being abused. Not a single freedom declared by the US founding fathers was a positive one. Not in the manner of positive is good or bad, but in the manner of positive being active and negative being passive. Each of the freedoms state it is a negative value, meaning the government has to do nothing but not involve itself. It is not a right to bare arms, but a freedom from the government restricting you to do so. This is the key to the healthcare debate, as none of the writings of our founding fathers at all states each American has a right to health care whatsoever. It is quite clear, from their writings, that it is the job of the people of the US to guarantee each other has the ability to receive things such as health care, business opportunities, etc. Since Obama is the President of the US, his thoughts on freedoms and rights must be applied to our founding fathers; noting that the founding fathers are indeed to basis for nearly every cultural and socioeconomic freedom and right demanded around the world. Let me summarize what Obama is doing. Amidst a health care debate that American is in nearly 60% majority opposition, Obama has made a statement to the American people in direct opposition of the US founding fathers. He believes nothing but his word alone is enough to discredit people like Thomas Jefferson, and even rewrite the constitution overnight. As long as this argument is put into perspective of the US constitution, Obama has claimed an absolute falsehood.

Do not be confused by his red herring that he actually cares if China uses the US constitution as its basis for rights (despite that Thomas Jefferson stated freedom was the natural state of all men), his statement is clearly in regard to his "changes" in America. Funny how he states this about China as he moves the US closer to the USSR/Chinese position every day.

[TheMiddlePath]

Truth.

Just add:

8. The development and preference of flexible and highly bendable 'situational-laws', common laws and 'emperor's mercy' over codified and warranted laws and rights.

9. Different contractual understanding, which is generally more like a 'conditional declaration of intent', unlike the western/roman concept of a stringent, unshakeble contract including penalties for breaking it.


Perhaps China should spread these Asian values and call them universal.

[hulaku]

Perhaps China should spread these Asian values and call them universal.

These are Chinese values. Do not paint the whole of Asia in Chinese authoritarian colors.

These values are "enforced" only in China and China supported regimes in NoKo and Myanmar.

[TheMiddlePath]

These are Chinese values. Do not paint the whole of Asia in Chinese authoritarian colors.

These values are "enforced" only in China and China supported regimes in NoKo and Myanmar.


But... these are UNIVERSAL values.

[hulaku]

But... these are UNIVERSAL values.

Yep if the definition of UNIVERSAL for you is China, NoKo and Myanmar:)

[Eztyga]

Why is freedom a universal right? And if so, why does the US support up governments like Saudi Arabia when 'universal freedoms' is a pipedream for at least half the population...

[annihilation]

I don't believe in "universal rights". I think its an agreement between the people and their government. So it all depends and each situation is unique. What works for the chinese will not work for the US. I also don't believe in intervening with another nations situation (military force) when its none of my business. Also its not always in the US best interest to go blindly supporting it.

[slaveman]

It depends on your definition of freedom. A lot of Americans oppose socialist forms of government because they do not view wellfare as freedom. You're not free unless you have the freedom to fail. That's just one opinion though, and there's thousands more.

But anyways, the United States supports nations like Saudi Arabia because of special intrests, lobbyists, and most importantly; money. And they continue to do so because "we the people" are uniformed and simply don't care.

The amount of power that international banks and corporations have over America is incredible. Those groups have little regard for America's original principles and values (or anyone elses for that matter). It's all about supply, demand, money, and power. The banksters have been in control for a long time, and will continue to gain more and more power unless the people start to wake up.

I think it's interesting that Obama made these comments to the Chinese. He opposed the "Patriot Act" during his campaign, but now stands firmly behind and wants to expand its power. He was also a huge supporter of the new "Cybersecurity Bill", which now gives our government dictatorial power over the internet. And now our government is making a push toward "Intrenet2", which requires licensing and approval for personal websites and restricts content.

It's all a bunch of rhetoric to me. Chinese-style authoritarianism and globalism seem to be the model, not the oppostion.

I agree with annihilation. There isn't such thing as a "one size fits all" solution for the planet, and our military-intervention rarely, if ever, brings "freedom and universal rights" to others (and it's definitely not part of our founders vision).

Our form of government has created more wealth and a better standard of living faster than any other nation in history. But it has come at a great cost. Right, wrong, indifferent; it will be up to the Chinese to decide what type of country they want to live in.

[Sootan]

Why is freedom a universal right? And if so, why does the US support up governments like Saudi Arabia when 'universal freedoms' is a pipedream for at least half the population...

It's more like universal interests.

[Ordie]

.

It's all a bunch of rhetoric to me. Chinese-style authoritarianism and globalism seem to be the model, not the oppostion.

Having been to China on several occasions I strongly disagree.

The legitimacy of the Communist Party to govern China solely rests upon delivering social stability and 10% economic growth every year.

So far this has worked in the urban metropolitan areas including Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Shenzhen. If you visit these places they are fantastic, modern and thriving.

However, if you go to the rural provinces, it is extremely poor, polluted, dry and under-developed.

Much of it is due to the corruption, cronyism and greedy of local Communist Party bosses who are only rewarded for meeting quotas and delivering economic growth at the expense of locals rights to land, clean air and fair compensation.

During the past several years there has been over 85,000 riots and uprisings in the rural areas of China. Much of it is due to the corrupt actions of local Communist party bosses.

I've been to Beijing twice. Once in 1995 and earlier this year. I can tell you that the level of paranoia of the cops and government is extremely high. The reason....people know what is really going on. People have more access to primary and independent sources of news and information than ever before. So much so a demonstration can pop-up at anytime thanks to the internet.

If you arrive at Beijing Capitol Airport, you will see more overhead cameras at every 10 meters. If you go to Tienanmen Square there's a plainclothes cop every 20 meters. If you take the subway, there's an airport style security x-ray machine.

I was personally followed twice by plainclothes cops to and from my hotel. I didn't really care because at least I wouldn't get mugged. Besides, my hotel was next to the police barracks.

Everyone is assuming China is the model for governance. What many don't know is that China is paying a big price in creating the ultimate police state.

My conclusion: There are limits to developmental autocracy.

[vinny_121_ND]

George W. Bush once said, "there ought to be limits to freedom"

http://www.rtmark.com/more/articles/bushdallas0522bush1bushsite.htm

[Eventine]

Historically, freedom has not been a right, but a privilege. If the Chinese people truly thought that the freedoms mentioned by Obama were what they wanted, they would fight for it, and thereby earn it. Otherwise, it must be considered that maybe, from their perspective, most Chinese are already "free enough," or at least "free enough to not want to fight for more freedom."

To this end, it must be remembered that despite all the hysteria over censorship, the opening of China means that most if not all educated Chinese are well-aware of democracy, free speech, and other Western values. That their government pushes them in a different direction ("China will go its own way") is without doubt, but freedom has always triumphed in the midst of autocratic coercion. In fact, if it didn't - if China only became "free" because the state promoted it under coercion by the US, then how can we truly be sure that it's "free?"

[Jippo]

^ This is what I have a philisophical problem with. Health care, education, housing, food, clothing, plasma TVs, and X-box are not rights. People should have the right to go out and work to obtain those things, whether they be necessities or items of entertainment. We do not have a "right" to something that requires someone else's labor and resources.

Plasma TV's and X-boxes sure aren't rights. But every born human should have the right basic services he/she needs to survive and have a meaningful life.

You should remember that not everyone of us can work. Children, disabled, and sick should be taken care by the people who are in the position to. When we were cavemen, we were human enough to take care of the elderly and the sick in our own tribe. These days the tribes have gone, and we live under a larger unity. But even though we don't know everyone in our community as a state, we still have the same obligation to help those who have less to remain as human like the previously mentioned cavemen.

I'm serious about it. Maybe the example was a bit lacking, but I see it pretty much that way. Close communities have all but vanished in the big cities and nations, and the whole society has transformed. We no longer have a safety net of the village in which people are helping each other to survive. There must be other means to share and survive together.

[slaveman]

Nice info Ordie...

I think we agree more than you think. My comments partain more to the ever-growing buerocratic mess we're getting into here. To me it seems that most nations are moving toward a "track, trace, database" society. We are seeing more and more CCTV cameras, a militarization of police, and a paranoid society, where officials are just a corrupt as China (if not more). More and more regulations, taxes, and policies that affect out day-to-day lives.

I'm sure there's truth to what you're saying, but how do you challenge a government when there's secret police, cameras, and body-scanners at every corner? Living in fear? Forced labor camps? Mobile execution vehicles? How to you stand up to corrupt bosses with all the power, when you have no right to defend yourself or your family? There's even regulations on having families...

This is what I see as the model. I'd like to hear more though... Good posts!

[Ordie]

Fear gives birth to an autocracy.
Fear feeds an autocracy.
Fear is the product of an autocracy.

[Switek]

"Fear kills the soul"

[Ordie]

Why is freedom a universal right? .

It's a universal desire that is hard- wired in the human consciousness. We all desire a freedom to choose our path, free from fear, and the freedom to fail.

[MaverickCowboy]

It depends on your definition of freedom. A lot of Americans oppose socialist forms of government because they do not view wellfare as freedom. You're not free unless you have the freedom to fail. That's just one opinion though, and there's thousands more.

But anyways, the United States supports nations like Saudi Arabia because of special intrests, lobbyists, and most importantly; money. And they continue to do so because "we the people" are uniformed and simply don't care.

The amount of power that international banks and corporations have over America is incredible. Those groups have little regard for America's original principles and values (or anyone elses for that matter). It's all about supply, demand, money, and power. The banksters have been in control for a long time, and will continue to gain more and more power unless the people start to wake up.

I think it's interesting that Obama made these comments to the Chinese. He opposed the "Patriot Act" during his campaign, but now stands firmly behind and wants to expand its power. He was also a huge supporter of the new "Cybersecurity Bill", which now gives our government dictatorial power over the internet. And now our government is making a push toward "Intrenet2", which requires licensing and approval for personal websites and restricts content.

It's all a bunch of rhetoric to me. Chinese-style authoritarianism and globalism seem to be the model, not the oppostion.

I agree with annihilation. There isn't such thing as a "one size fits all" solution for the planet, and our military-intervention rarely, if ever, brings "freedom and universal rights" to others (and it's definitely not part of our founders vision).

Our form of government has created more wealth and a better standard of living faster than any other nation in history. But it has come at a great cost. Right, wrong, indifferent; it will be up to the Chinese to decide what type of country they want to live in.

can you expand on that internet censorship thing and internet 2?

[Jobu]

When we were cavemen, we were human enough to take care of the elderly and the sick in our own tribe.

I doubt it. I think they probably dragged 'em out of the cave and left 'em for the wolves.

[annihilation]

can you expand on that internet censorship thing and internet 2?


You know what they say, if the internet came out today it would have never existed. It would have been cut up into little pieces.

That being said its better for us and the chinese if we stop pushing them so hard about "freedom" and "right"s. They will in the end do whats best for them when they feel like it (whatever that outcome will be, I personally don't see democracy happening ever.) If we focused on our own freedoms and rights more and a lot less of the world, we would do better service to ourselves and maybe to the world. Its not our place to dictate these terms, nor should it be any other nation.

[Ordie]

That being said its better for us and the chinese if we stop pushing them so hard about "freedom" and "right"s. They will in the end do whats best for them when they feel like it (whatever that outcome will be, I personally don't see democracy happening ever.) If we focused on our own freedoms and rights more and a lot less of the world, we would do better service to ourselves and maybe to the world. Its not our place to dictate these terms, nor should it be any other nation.

Perhaps so, but we (China & US) have a bigger issue in terms of climate change. Regardless of what the rest of the world would like to see, it will be up to the world's two largest polluters (US and China) to dictate the terms and lead.

[LaoSexMachine]

Who's going to make everyone has it? Fvcking politicians.

[brainplay]

Plasma TV's and X-boxes sure aren't rights. But every born human should have the right basic services he/she needs to survive and have a meaningful life.

You should remember that not everyone of us can work. Children, disabled, and sick should be taken care by the people who are in the position to. When we were cavemen, we were human enough to take care of the elderly and the sick in our own tribe.

Those caveman communities put those disabled to work and those only within some tribes while nomadic left the disabled and elderly to die. This was a form of charity to allow a member to continue being useful. In this day an age those only a portion of those actually contribute to society. And many more care not to take advantage of technology which removes many barriers for disabled people to become productive and even successful. There are some great success stories but those are few and far between. We no longer demand this level of effort but rather force others to pay for it. So much for charity.


These days the tribes have gone, and we live under a larger unity. But even though we don't know everyone in our community as a state, we still have the same obligation to help those who have less to remain as human like the previously mentioned cavemen.

Who's fault is that? Why don't you get to know your neighbor? Why aren't you part of your neighborhood watch? Why aren't you amiable with your family to have them contribute? Where is your network of support (not fracking facebook) that so many of yester-year relied on? Who's fault is it that people have failed to build it? That's right, their own.


We no longer have a safety net of the village in which people are helping each other to survive. There must be other means to share and survive together.

Its called charity. Its called planning for the future. Its called paring down to the necessities (something many of us are already doing in this economy). But then when you demand money and services, why should anyone contribute more? No Jippo, I've had to work with the dregs of society close in hand and distribute that "support". I have seen way too many that need to be left out in the cold to die to free up resources for those that are willing to put forth some modicum of effort.

[gaijinsamurai]

.... I've had to work with the dregs of society close in hand and distribute that "support". I have seen way too many that need to be left out in the cold to die to free up resources for those that are willing to put forth some modicum of effort.

x2. Well said. Work in an urban parole & probation office for a while, like I did, and you'll likely feel the same way, too.

[Mastermind]

x2. Well said. Work in an urban parole & probation office for a while, like I did, and you'll likely feel the same way, too.
I was a guard and counselor in a state penitentiary for 12 years...talk about "dregs".

I suspect, some day, when mankind get much closer to "Universal Freedoms"...we will be living more as willing slaves than true freemen.

Consider the "Kaliforneeya Utopis Major" (my coinage)...Everyone is free so long as they conform to the strict "guidelines" of the ruling elitist wealthy liberal fascists. To never speak forbidden words, to never display the slightest disrespect for the pervert-ism of the day, to never show the slightest adoration for weapons (unless you intend to use them to suppress conservatives), to never question the ruling wisdom to set mother gaia above all things, including food and sustenance for humankind, to always express your hatred and love of all things as defined by the wealthy class.

Really, this is the fate of humanity...we have infected the planet with our planet covering presence...and soon, only the wealthy elite will be able to afford freedom...all others will be considered expendable. You will be forced to buy freedom or remain a slave.

[Jippo]

Those caveman communities put those disabled to work and those only within some tribes while nomadic left the disabled and elderly to die. This was a form of charity to allow a member to continue being useful. In this day an age those only a portion of those actually contribute to society. And many more care not to take advantage of technology which removes many barriers for disabled people to become productive and even successful. There are some great success stories but those are few and far between. We no longer demand this level of effort but rather force others to pay for it. So much for charity.

They didn't dump the granny as soon as she couldn't work. There's plenty of proof of taking care of the elderly and disabled in many cultures in pre-history.

What comes to your comment about the disabled and working: my personal experience is that most of them want to work just like everyone of us. It's not a question about the will.

And productivity isn't a measure when judging someone's right to meaningful life.



Who's fault is that? Why don't you get to know your neighbor? Why aren't you part of your neighborhood watch? Why aren't you amiable with your family to have them contribute? Where is your network of support (not fracking facebook) that so many of yester-year relied on? Who's fault is it that people have failed to build it? That's right, their own.

I don't think you know how I contribute to my society. And even then your point is mood because one should be entitled to help even if he/she is unable to actively seek it. Some people can not live without help yet alone actively seek help.



Its called charity. Its called planning for the future. Its called paring down to the necessities (something many of us are already doing in this economy). But then when you demand money and services, why should anyone contribute more? No Jippo, I've had to work with the dregs of society close in hand and distribute that "support". I have seen way too many that need to be left out in the cold to die to free up resources for those that are willing to put forth some modicum of effort.

I suppose the next step for you is to start to actively kill those who do not produce to "free up resources"! That was fashionable some time ago in Europe, but eventually these idealists were hanged.

I haven't anything more to say to you.

[annihilation]

I was a guard and counselor in a state penitentiary for 12 years...talk about "dregs".

I suspect, some day, when mankind get much closer to "Universal Freedoms"...we will be living more as willing slaves than true freemen.

Consider the "Kaliforneeya Utopis Major" (my coinage)...Everyone is free so long as they conform to the strict "guidelines" of the ruling elitist wealthy liberal fascists. To never speak forbidden words, to never display the slightest disrespect for the pervert-ism of the day, to never show the slightest adoration for weapons (unless you intend to use them to suppress conservatives), to never question the ruling wisdom to set mother gaia above all things, including food and sustenance for humankind, to always express your hatred and love of all things as defined by the wealthy class.

Really, this is the fate of humanity...we have infected the planet with our planet covering presence...and soon, only the wealthy elite will be able to afford freedom...all others will be considered expendable. You will be forced to buy freedom or remain a slave.

Sounds a bit Orwellian, lets hope I wont be around for when it does happen.

[gaijinsamurai]

Consider the "Kaliforneeya Utopis Major" (my coinage)...Everyone is free so long as they conform to the strict "guidelines" of the ruling elitist wealthy liberal fascists. To never speak forbidden words, to never display the slightest disrespect for the pervert-ism of the day, to never show the slightest adoration for weapons (unless you intend to use them to suppress conservatives),.

That's funny, because liberal Portland, Oregon is that way. Even though we carried guns at work, heaven help us if we actually LIKE them! I and the few other gun nuts in the parole office had to discuss firearms in secret, behind closed doors. Once, word got out that I and a co-worker were building ARs, and sh!t hit the fan.