OICW

[Kitsune]

What do you know about the OICW. Do You think it will be a revolution of infantry warfare ?

[Chris]

i dont think its that good, too bulky, to much electronics. Ok its a lot easier to aim when firing grenades and a lot of other things, but what if it stops working?. Soon or later the soldiers want be able to handle guns correctly without the electronical gadgets. It will probably also be easy to jam the systems, or target soldiers when they send a lot of signals

[Ratamacue]

http://www.hkpro.com/oicwcasing.jpg

That's the latest model of the OICW. It's actually not all that bulky, and it's only slightly heavier than the M16/M203 (probably more in the range of an unloaded Minimi/M249 - 15lbs).

When the military begins to equip it in 2009, I believe is the year, it's only going to be fielded with some SOCOM units, who will obviously have the training to use the weapon in the case of electronic failure. Even when it becomes a regular infantry weapon, I would bet that the Military will take the time to train the use of the weapon without electronics.

The best points about the OICW is the amount of fire support that the semi-auto 20mm GL will be able to put out, as well as the programmed-detonation and the fact that the assault rifle portion is based off the G36, one of the most reliable weapons in the world today. I'd say that by 2009, the weapon will be lighter, more reliable, smaller, more advanced, and the ultimate infantry weapon.

[Kitsune]

Hey it's a german soldier holding it! Where in the hell did you get that picture, ratamacue?

[Ratamacue]

www.hkpro.com - go into the World of HK section. It has nearly every HK weapon produced to date.

[Kitsune]

Thanks ! :D

[Ichhabe]

So the nightmare here would be "Internal error, restart your OICW. If problem occure again, contact administrator." ??? hehe
I've read a little earlier about these weapons. U think it still many years before u see that given to soldiers. And how do u present Arms with that? have they thought of that?

[Ratamacue]

Drill won't be done with the OICW. Even today, the M16 is rarely used for formal drilling. The M14 is normally used, since it's a regular rifle and has good weight/size for drill. They would probably continue to use the M14 for ceremony.

[Nachtschleicher]

I personally hope the OICW never comes into use! The damn thing is so ugly, I'd be ashamed to seen with one. I'd take a muzzle-loading musket before I pick up one of those things!

15 pounds is pretty heavy, especially if you've got to haul it all over the place for long distances (and the ammunition you've got to haul around). Now, I don't know much about the OICW, so I suppose it's unfair to judge it, but from what I DO know it sounds like a maintenance nightmare! A lot of electronics would mean that you'd have to be extra careful with it, and, if it isn't waterproof, be careful NOT to get it wet. If it IS waterproof, it'll be very costly to produce.

It will probably change over the next 6 years, but until then, my opinion still stands, it's an ugly duckling! I'll choose this gun over that any day!

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/car15/m203-20.jpg Can't go wrong with some .223 bullets and bloopers for some ultimate firepower!

P.S. Does anyone know of a good web site of just pictures of various firearms? Thanks! Have a good 'un! :)

[FallenAngel]

hell yeah...

www.securityarms.com

might want to get a cup of coffee before going there....will take you DAYS to get through all the pics :)

[Kitsune]

Hmmm... Hood
You find the OICW that ugly? (What would he say to the G11 lol). and you find the M4/203 beautiful ?! Hmmm... De gustibus non disputandum est.
(Hehe, Ratamacue is not the only one who can do this)

But someone around here said that looks and style are of no importance.

And everyone is troubled because of the electronics. Are you aware is working on a thing called "Land Warrior"? What do you think about that? That means even more electronics right? And why not? With the exception of the common infantry everyone else uses electonics in a modern army ?!

[Light Fighter]

The Land Warrior system is a novel idea, but you cant have an entire army relie (sp) on electronics, because electronics can fail. Goes back to the old saying "All skill's in vain when an angle pisses in the flintlock of your musket" A bit dated, but still has a meaning.[/b]

[rnwang]

How do you go ****e with the OICW?

[Kitsune]

Securityarms.com is really a great site Fallen Angel. Thanks :D

Everyone (interested that is) should note especially the G 11 & G 11 2K entry... Truer words have never been spoken.

[Nachtschleicher]

Mr. Kitsune, you have me mixed with Hood. Even I myself have seen one of Hood's posts, and I thought it was one of mine.

So, what does this say? "De gustibus non disputandum est"? I tried to translate it but it wasn't German like I thought it was.

I don't think the CAR-15/M203 is BEAUTIFUL, but it is certainly better looking in my sole opinion. You wanna talk about beautiful, then check out these links:

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0900/912.htm

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0200/244.htm

Mr. Kitsune, you're right, I don't like the G11, and it’s even uglier than the OICW. Not to offend your (or anyone else’s) tastes, don't get mad. More than likely, I'm probably one of the very few who think so.

Fallen Angel, thanks for the link, they're great!

Have a good ‘un! :D

[Ratamacue]

Who cares how a weapon looks? If it works, use it.

Wanna see a real revolution in weapons? www.metalstorm.com

They're designing a handgun that fire completely electronically (NO moving parts whatsoever), with no battery, and uses 4 preloaded barrels that can fire multiple shots per trigger squeeze each. It's called the O'Dwyer VLE, and also has a system that requires you do wear a certain ring on your finger, designed for each gun, in order to be able to activate the weapon and fire it. A video can be seen at http://www.metalstorm.com/videos/ms_odwyer_vle_mpg.zip

They've also designed a 36-barrel weapon using the same technology that can fire at varying rates of up to--brace yourself, because I'm not kidding--1,000,000 rounds per minute. A video of it can be seen at http://www.metalstorm.com/videos/ms_36barrel_mpg.zip

It's possible that similar technology can be adapted to the OICW or integrated with new weapons and issued to the US Military within 10 years. The DoD is considering it, but as far as I know, Land Warrior/OICW have the green light thus far.

[Vance]

Hood? I think his name is Hoot ;)

[Kitsune]

Sorry to Hoot & Hood.
So You are "Hoot" like the one in Black Hawk Down? And the other one is probably a relative of that Sherwood guy? Well ok... I'll try to keep you apart.

You did not offend me... no sweat. I myself think the G11 is UGLY. Nontheless it was a GREAT rifle... and i was quite sad that i never got one in my times as soldier :cry:

And that quotation? It is latin. Means you should not argue about tastes. ("There is no arguing about tastes" literally). OK thats it.

Have a good 'un yourself Hoot !

[Nachtschleicher]

Hello Kitsune, yes I am like Hot from Black Hawk Down, but it's not ALL because of him. Here's what I posted in the username topic,

"The story of my handle... I was out with my friends, just hanging out and I was doing and saying funny stuff, when someone said, "Man Jason! You're a hoot!" And since my fave character in BHD was Hoot, I said, "Hey! That'd be a cool nickname!" And that's how I got it."

So yeah, it's related to the BHD movie, which is one of my faves.

So, why is the G11 a good rifle? I'd like to learn about it. Also, thanks for the Latin translation. Do you know Latin, or did you use a web translating service?

Have a good 'un! :D

[Apogee]

The OICW looks like a good weapon in concept, but in practice, i think the soldier will recieve information overflow. Under high stress, there are a finite number of imputs that a soldier can take and understand. Adding all of these new imputs may not help much. I think the same applies to the Land Warrior System. I could, however see this system as a team or squad tool. Maybe have one fire team with a 203 and the other with an OICW. Thats just me though.

[Kitsune]

Well Hoot, the G11 is simply the most innovative rifle ever made. It was developed and field tested during the eighties as the new standard rifle for the german armed forces.
Their were a lot of interesting features on this one.

1) It fired caseless ammo. This alone is revolutionary.

2) It had a rotating breach. So the magazin is inserted ALONG the rifle. (From the front in fact... just over the barrel). And each round is turned 90 degrees aligning it with the barrel.

3) The interior floating mechanism. The whole inner workings... barrel, breach, magazine, "floated" backward a bit on each shot... reducing the recoil. And since recoil was not that high without it (the G11 fired 4.73mm ammo) its final recoil was...even lower... more like an Machine Pistol.

Because of the calibre and the caseless ammo a magazine held 45 shots (the version for the american ACR contest even 50) without sticking out anywhere or looking like a box. Nice touch were the two rails for extra mags left and right of the feeding mag (they are not found on the ACR version), making mag exchanges especially easy and fast (3 seconds to reload). Every soldier thus had 135 round in easy reach. And the weapon still weighted around 4kg with all that ammo.

Another interesting feature was the burst mode. In full auto the weapon fired at speed of 9 rounds per second. But during the burst mode of three shots this rose to 33 rounds per second. (This was only possible because of the caseless ammo... normally the time needed for case ejection prevents that firing rates this high can be reached in a smallarm). This means that the three shots leave the weapon in about a tenth of a second... before the weapon starts to feel the recoil, the last round has already left the weapon. So the burst mode was in fact the best for precision shooting on the G11.
All in all the weapon was small, light, very precise, had incedibly low recoil, and was also very reliable (for example no dirt can get into the weapon through the ejection window because there was none). The only problem during the early test phase was overheating. But that was solved.
In the end the only disadvantage was the price (more than one and half of an M4). But good things are always expensive.
In the end after it had been field tested for years and had got its thumbs up the german government suddenly (and surprisingly) cancelled it. H&K created hastily the G36... a rifle devoid of any revolutionary features (but now said to be one of the best assault rifles in the world...they really know their job, the H&K guys) and this was adopted by the german armed forces.
But who knows? Perhaps someone clever resurrects the G11 one day.

[Kitsune]

There was another thread with that name, I knew it...

:lol:

[GazB]

Regarding the G11 I thought that the original German rifle had the 50 round mags, while the one submitted for the US program to replace the M16 had the 45 round mag...

The main purpose behind the caseless ammo was to increase rate of fire in burst mode to keep the rounds as close together as possible. One by product of caseless ammo was reduced cost and weight at the cost of increased cost... I'll explain...

One of the heaviest components of a round of ammo is the bullet case. Usually second only to the round that is fired. In the case of high velocity rounds that use light bullets the case is often the heaviest component. Using caseless rounds reduces both weight and cost per round as there is a huge saving in the use of brass. The use of compacted propellents also held the promise of much higher velocities in the future as there was no brass case that could split. This was left for the moment with the G11 as very high velocity is good but the severe bore erosion caused by very high velocities reduces barrel life... you don't want a 2000-3000 round barrel life in a standard assault rifle... for an anti material rifle or a sniper rifle it might be OK.

Unfortunately all these cost savings and weight savings come at a price. Current small arms ammo factories are geared to making billions of 5.56mm and 7.62mm rounds a year, but only the Germans had developed a safe stable propellent that burned cleanly enough and the time it would take to produce enough ammo for the German army let alone make it a NATO standard would be bad enough... the cost would be horrendus.

The resulting savings in the long run and potential advantages would be worth it in the long run, but the very costly integration of the East German economy into the West German economy and the end of the cold war meant the money and the will was not there... hense they developed the G36 to use the 5.56mm NATO round to replace their G3s.

[GearGod]

Are you guys aware that there are 2(TWO) topics on this same subject? I will also post the same message I posted on the other topic:

Heres some exellent must-read OICW articles by the 1st TSG(A):

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2116/oicw.htm
http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/21stcenturyrifle.htm

If the page doesnt load, try at another time

My conclusion is this, instead of having a combined M203/Rifle combo, have the OICW M203 seperate from the rifle. Also, instead of the OICW rifle, have the soldier carry an M4:

"Will the Grenadier with stand-alone OICW 20mm GL mean a loss of 5.56mm firepower in the squad? No, have him carry a M4 carbine. Won't this be heavy? It'll be exactly the same "heavy" as having the two weapons physically attached, except sans the bureaucratic hidden agenda, he will have a lighter weight, easier to employ grenade launcher and when he needs to shoot direct-fire, he will have a lighter weight 5.56mm assault rifle"

[Kadrun]

Um.... sorry for reviving the dead zombie thread

K11 is in mass produce stage and it will be fielded by the end of this year.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Rifle_xk11.jpg/800px-Rifle_xk11.jpg

[James]

I think you set a record for a necro post - 6 years!

Is the K11 from China?

[Bro Jangles]

^ South Korea.

[ting]

AFAIK they use a bolt action on the 20mm to save weight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daewoo_K11

[chino65]

Sometimes people get fixated with ideas: The M203 GL attached to the M16 rifle is GREAT!

But when you have a bulky and complicated GL like the one on the OICW, it is pretty silly to still try and marry it to the rifle.

[Caduceus]

Does anyone know what happened to the XM-25 Grenade launcher?

[the_13th_redneck]

The K-11 isn't supposed to replace the standard line rifle. It just adds to a squad's fire capability. For all I know, it actually won't replace the K-2 with K-201 GL attachment. It only makes sense because the 20mm grenade and the 40mm grenade do different things. Both have their place in a rifle squad.
Making the grenade launcher bolt action is probably a winning idea. Saves weight and reduces possibilities of having a jam.
The K-2 rifle that the platform is built around is a very reliable weapon. I've never had it jam on me once in my entire time in the military and believe me, I had to shoot a lot.
The K-11 is a little over 6 kg empty but it's still lighter than a SAW so it's not THAT heavy, especially if it's not meant to be replacing your regular rifle.
The scope itself I believe has some level of magnification so it can also be used as a designated marksman rifle. Also sees through smoke and also works at night. I just hope it's got iron sight backups incase the thing breaks.
The bipod pictured in the photo is very unpopular. I've used it and really leaves a lot to be desired. Hopefully they'll be introducing better ones soon.

[Keith10284]

What do you know about the OICW. Do You think it will be a revolution of infantry warfare ?

The Heckler & Koch OICW looks quite interesting. Apparently, it has a grenade launcher that can be programmed to detonate in mid flight because the 20mm shells have a microchip installed so even trenches aren't safe. It looks to me like a heavily modified G36 but still quite impressive. I don't know if it will revolutionise warfare because if the electronic gadgets go wrong (and it has been known) you're in all sorts of trouble. I believe in keeping it simple as there's less to go wrong with a well designed conventional rifle which it is without all the fancy gizmos.

Here's a picture, it's called the XM29

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Sammo/My%20Documents/Keith's%20Photos/weapons/xm29.jpg

The Australians did something similar with the Steyr AUG

Hope this helps mate.

[digrar]

The Australians didn't do much with that, it was a pipe dream for 5 minutes and appears to have spent the best part of the last 3 or 4 years in the round file under the desk.

[313230]

Does anyone know how metalstorm puts rounds into barrel? If the contact is loose then it will lose pressure and accuracy, but if it seal tightly, how can they put it through?

[GazB]

Does anyone know how metalstorm puts rounds into barrel? If the contact is loose then it will lose pressure and accuracy, but if it seal tightly, how can they put it through?AFAIK the barrel is basically also the weapons magazine.

In my opinion metal storm looks interesting for some sort of barrage weapon with 40mm grenades, or as some sort of self defence system for shooting down missiles for tanks or ships, but for small arms I think making lots of magazines makes more sense than making lots of barrels. The problem is that the first rounds to fire will need lots of propellent to compensate for the fact that they have the shortest amount of barrel to accelerate down. Different temperatures mean different burning rates so accuracy is going to be a little iffy too.
Perhaps some sort of personal defence weapon that is carried more than it is used for non-combat troops like truck drivers and pilots etc.

Most roles I think the enormous rate of fire is largely wasted.

I think caseless ammo as used in the G11 is certainly the way forward, but the initial cost of setting it up will stop it from happening any time soon. Once it does happen however the advantages of compacted propellent and reduced weight, and of course the reduced cost of eliminating all that brass will mean others will likely take the leap too.