Israel, Germany to discuss missile ships

[GiladS]

By YAAKOV KATZ (yaakovk@jpost.com)

A German defense delegation will arrive in Israel next month for high-level talks to focus on an Israeli request to purchase two Meko-class missile ships.

The delegation will be led by senior officials from the German Defense Ministry and the German Navy. Talks on the Israeli side will be led by Defense Ministry director-general Pinhas Buchris and Navy commander Vice Admiral Eliezer Marom.

While the Navy has yet to finalize its order, it is working on a concept under which the 2,000-ton ship would be designed by the German company Blohm and Voss, which manufactures the Meko family of warships.

The design would be similar to the existing Israeli Sa'ar 5-class ship but would be slightly larger, to enable it to carry the massive IAI-made Adir radar, capable of providing an extensive over-the-horizon radar view.

The ship will be capable of carrying special forces and larger infantry units as well as midsize vehicles, alongside at least one helicopter. The ship will also be installed with the anti-ship Harpoon Missile, as well as the Barak anti-missile defense system.

Each ship is expected to cost over $300 million, and Israel is hoping that the German government will provide part of the funding, as it has in the past for Israeli submarines.

Germany is currently building two Dolphin-class submarines for Israel, expected to become operational in the next few years.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1258489192802&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Silent Reader]

The ship will be capable of carrying special forces and larger infantry units as well as midsize vehicles, alongside at least one helicopter. The ship will also be installed with the anti-ship Harpoon Missile, as well as the Barak anti-missile defense system.
where would they want to fit all this stuff?
even a slightly larger version of the Meko 200 would be about the size of a German F122... and i do not see any space for vehicles or "large" infantry units.. special forces yes.. but thats it.. or they use the helipad to carry two humvees or something similiar ^^

[chris piss]

Ofcourse cause Germany is suppose to pull a rabbit out of their hat for Isreal.

[zad]

Israel envoy: We will like to get two frigates Meko200 on credit.

German sales manager: I am afraid with the current economic crisis we can´t afford to sell them on credit.

Israel envoy: Ehemm You know... We have discovered that pasthums are the 13th lost tribe of Israel...

German sales manager: akward silence... You want them packed for gift?

[kamaz]

Israel envoy: We will like to get two frigates Meko200 on credit.

German sales manager: I am afraid with the current economic crisis we can´t afford to sell them on credit.

Israel envoy: Ehemm You know... We have discovered that pasthums are the 13th lost tribe of Israel...

German sales manager: akward silence... You want them packed for gift?

lol, thats probably how it went down. Theres gona be 25 lost tribes of Israel by this time next year

[JCR]

where would they want to fit all this stuff?
even a slightly larger version of the Meko 200 would be about the size of a German F122... and i do not see any space for vehicles or "large" infantry units.. special forces yes.. but thats it.. or they use the helipad to carry two humvees or something similiar ^^

The israelis tend to over-arm their vessels, but given their operational area they can pack more top weight on a ship than a navy that has to operate in other areas than the eastern med.
I think a biscay storm front would be a worse threat to the israeli navy than the whole arab navies combined
:D

[Kaplanr]

Maybe from a pure naval doctrine that's true, but who besides the Israelis, Syrians, British and Argentinians have fought real naval battles in the last 50 years?

[Koppo]

Maybe from a pure naval doctrine that's true, but who besides the Israelis, Syrians, British and Argentinians have fought real naval battles in the last 50 years?

Koreans seem to exchange fire from time to time.

[tluassa]

Maybe from a pure naval doctrine that's true, but who besides the Israelis, Syrians, British and Argentinians have fought real naval battles in the last 50 years?

The United States, China, Iran, Vietnam, Lybia. (and if you want so, Sri Lanka)

[Sootan]

Maybe from a pure naval doctrine that's true, but who besides the Israelis, Syrians, British and Argentinians have fought real naval battles in the last 50 years?


Koreans seem to exchange fire from time to time.


The United States, China, Iran, Vietnam, Lybia. (and if you want so, Sri Lanka)

Egypt, India and Pakistan too.

[Silent Reader]

Egypt, India and Pakistan too.

and Sea Shepherd vs Japanese Whalers p-)

[ting]

and Sea Shepherd vs Japanese Whalers p-)

Norwegian Coast guard vs Sea shepherdp-)

[muck]

Each ship is expected to cost over $300 million, and Israel is hoping that the German government will provide part of the funding, as it has in the past for Israeli submarines.I'd love to know why we should continue this procedure.

[zad]

French DGSE vs Greenpeace.

[junglejim]

I'd love to know why we should continue this procedure.


German attache: Now we discuss the payment terms and price

Israeli attache: Wait hang on before we continue let me take a picture of the street outside for my Grandma, these is where she grew up before being sent to the camps....*click* Oh that used to be her fathers store *click*

Israeli attache: So now lets discuss the payments terms shall we?

[aed1980]

german attache: Now we discuss the payment terms and price

israeli attache: Wait hang on before we continue let me take a picture of the street outside for my grandma, these is where she grew up before being sent to the camps....*click* oh that used to be her fathers store *click*

israeli attache: So now lets discuss the payments terms shall we?

excellent reply

[junglejim]

excellent reply

It's the same reason why the big road networks in my country are funded by the Japanese Government.

[Steak-Sauce]

I wonder how much of this contract my government will fund in the end.
Anyone knows if Germany funds only Israeli projects, or others too?

[aed1980]

I wonder how much of this contract my government will fund in the end.
Anyone knows if Germany funds only Israeli projects, or others too?

We are the only ones that got a country, homos and gypsies not yet p-)

[zad]

We are the only ones that got a country, homos and gypsies not yet p-)

How do you explain then San Francisco?

[deathil93]

Hope they'll close the deal aye, without making the Germans give them for free because thats just ungrateful.


where would they want to fit all this stuff?
even a slightly larger version of the Meko 200 would be about the size of a German F122... and i do not see any space for vehicles or "large" infantry units.. special forces yes.. but thats it.. or they use the helipad to carry two humvees or something similiar ^^
I believe the navy said that they will re-design the ship with the help of Blohm and Voss. My guess they want to use them also as some sort of mini-landing dock as well as to provide the regular roles such as submarine hunting and ship-to-ship warfare.
My wet dream is to see those 2 ships escorted by Sa'ar 5's and smaller patrol vessels :D



Germany is currently building two Dolphin-class submarines for Israel, expected to become operational in the next few years.

I could have sworn that they subs were delievered back in September aye, that reporter should check his facts :O


Israel envoy: We will like to get two frigates Meko200 on credit.

German sales manager: I am afraid with the current economic crisis we can´t afford to sell them on credit.

Israel envoy: Ehemm You know... We have discovered that pasthums are the 13th lost tribe of Israel...

German sales manager: akward silence... You want them packed for gift?
haha I laughed hard haha :D
probably true tho lmao

[RoyB]

I'd love to know why we should continue this procedure.
Ask your government.

German attache: Now we discuss the payment terms and price

Israeli attache: Wait hang on before we continue let me take a picture of the street outside for my Grandma, these is where she grew up before being sent to the camps....*click* Oh that used to be her fathers store *click*

Israeli attache: So now lets discuss the payments terms shall we?
Yeah, I'm sure that is how its done.

People around here tend to throw their fury on Israel rather than on their own government. They should give the answers, not Israel.
And if you really do think that your government is that stupid, than what more can I say?

[Migman]

I could have sworn that they subs were delievered back in September aye, that reporter should check his facts :O


I don't think this has been officially acknowledged by either side. There was speculation back in September based on a quote from an anonymous Israeli official.

[JCR]

In German, you would call such a ship a "eierlegende Wollmilchsau".
I doubt that such an animal is kosher :D

[tluassa]

In German, you would call such a ship a "eierlegende Wollmilchsau".
I doubt that such an animal is kosher :D

http://www.dokuhotline.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/eierlegende_wollmilchsau.gif

http://redstateeclectic.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452719d69e20120a4eac417970b-800wi

Agreed :)

[Sootan]

Ask your government.

Yeah, I'm sure that is how its done.

People around here tend to throw their fury on Israel rather than on their own government. They should give the answers, not Israel.
And if you really do think that your government is that stupid, than what more can I say?

Yeah, those Germans should thank your government for their trouble in agreeing to accept those gifts.

[Kaplanr]

The United States, China, Iran, Vietnam, Lybia. (and if you want so, Sri Lanka)

Not talking potshots and a guerrilla war here. Elaborate on these. I included the Israelis and Syrians because of the Battle of Latakia, the missile age equivalent of a battle-line.

[tluassa]

I very simply checked the wikipedia sources (which are surely flawed and very likely didnt even include all nations fighting serious Sea-battle in the time from 1950 - 2009)

(although I get told by most of my Universit profs that wikipedia is a "rouge" source) I got the impression that at least the general outline and wikipedia sources on this quite researched article are quite correct or at least acceptable as a source to debate and take out flaws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_naval_battles

I admit directly that I did not check the initial sources due to some language problems (im restricted to German, English, some sort of French and Spanish - sadly I did not get to learn Latian or old Greek, but that wasnt my choise but the one of my parents )

[dttk0009]

I'd love to know why we should continue this procedure.
It sure as hell isn't profitable. Good to know we have enough taxpayer money lying around to dump on other countries. Outrageous.

[tluassa]

It sure as hell isn't profitable. Good to know we have enough taxpayer money lying around to dump on other countries. Outrageous.

I know that Germany has more than 125 billion € "lying around" from the unbelievable profits that changed hands during the German "economic micracle" in the 60´s ...

[Steak-Sauce]

Well, if we have so much money "lying around", there are sure some things more important in this country than partially funding Israeli pet projects.
When Israel can't fund two MEKO ships, why don't they order only one and pay full, and order the next one some years later?

Oh, and:

Anyone knows if Germany funds only Israeli projects, or others too?

[Excalibur]

i think that so called wiedergutmachung became very convenient way for German government of subsidizing workforce and keep higher employment rate at shipyards without invoking rage from EU regulators. Sad to say, but some germans may be interested in continuation of this nonsense (called wiedergutmachung) in the same degree as Israel. This may explain why such projects are offered by germany to Israel rather to other countries.
I hope for both sides, that Israel will find a way to finance the full cost of ships. Asking for 10-15% discount would be fair enough though. Israel also could cover part of this deal by supplying some israeli military equipment to Bundeswehr e.g. drones, anti-tank missiles, etc. That would be more decent way to do business.

[RoyB]

Yeah, those Germans should thank your government for their trouble in agreeing to accept those gifts.
Have I said that?
Agenda, agenda, agenda.

[Sootan]

Have I said that?
Agenda, agenda, agenda.

The agenda being getting warships at a garage sale prices?

[RoyB]

The agenda being getting warships at a garage sale prices?
No.
Can you blame Israel for accepting under-priced products?
Did it put a gun to somebody's head?

[Steak-Sauce]

No.
Can you blame Israel for accepting under-priced products?
Did it put a gun to somebody's head?

What are you talking about?
Under-priced? These ships aren't under-priced, Israel asked for partially funding by the German government because the Israelis themselves seem not to have enough money for both MEKOs. It's more:

"Can you blame Israel for accepting two ships which are partially paid by Germany?"

And yes, it's a gun to our head. What are we supposed to do? Hello? This is Germany, does it ring a bell? Do you want us to say "Screw you, come back when you have the money for both ships, damn hippie!"? Please show me the German politicians with these balls of steel.

[RoyB]

What are you talking about?
Under-priced? These ships aren't under-priced, Israel asked for partially funding by the German government because the Israelis themselves seem not to have enough money for both MEKOs. It's more:

"Can you blame Israel for accepting two ships which are partially paid by Germany?"
OK, than its - "Can you blame Israel for accepting two ships which are partially paid by Germany?"

And yes, it's a gun to our head. What are we supposed to do? Hello? This is Germany, does it ring a bell? Do you want us to say "Screw you, come back when you have the money for both ships, damn hippie!"? Please show me the German politicians with these balls of steel.
You're highly naive if you really think that Germany bends to every Israeli demand. If you do think that about your government than there is nothing I can do. You need to go and ask your government why the hell are they doing that.
Fact is, Israel got interests, Germany got interests. And apparently Germany decided that this deal and past deals are good to go.

[deathil93]

Well, if we have so much money "lying around", there are sure some things more important in this country than partially funding Israeli pet projects.
When Israel can't fund two MEKO ships, why don't they order only one and pay full, and order the next one some years later?

Oh, and:
were more than capable of buying even 5 ships, its just that the ministry of finance is cheapo, like in any other country. I can say this for sure because the total government budget is around the $80-95 billion mark (less than that, but close). Our total GDP is more than $200 billion, that means that we have vast reserves of cash lying around for emergencies and future budget growth.

Besides, I think that the Germans will go for ALMOST any deal as long as the shipyards are working so they wont go bankrupt.

I dunno about funding other projects, but they are one of the main contributers cash wise for EU related defense projects, also one of the NATO main contributers... I dunno anythin else than that.

[Fuschimuschi]

Besides, I think that the Germans will go for ALMOST any deal as long as the shipyards are working so they wont go bankrupt.

Yup, this surely is not only because of the guilt-complex.

[RoyB]

Yup, this surely is not only because of the guilt-complex.
You gotta be a freaking idiot if you think this is all because of the so called 'guilt-complex'.

[Indiana Jones]

You gotta be a freaking idiot if you think this is all because of the so called 'guilt-complex'.
Na,na.
Roy, no offence, but it is to the contrary. Nobody with even a passing familiarity of German political and sociocultural constellations would argue the irrelevance of the aforementioned factor. It has by no means lost its potency, and in one way or the other, it extends well into the highest echelons of political leadership- take my word for it.
Cheers,
IJ.

[Herman the II]

Why do people believe that the Israelis will actually get the aid? So far they have only asked for it.... Let's wait for the answear.

Besides: there is currently no need for the German goverment to aid our shipyards. Tkms B&V (the only yard in question) has recently formed a big joint venture with an Arab investor, so they arent short on money.
What do Israelis think about paying Arab stockkeepers btw?

[Difool]

You're highly naive if you really think that Germany bends to every Israeli demand.

Trust us. It will.


If you do think that about your government than there is nothing I can do. You need to go and ask your government why the hell are they doing that.
100% agreed!

To make it clear: I would really appreciate Israel buying German weapon systems. And I think we could make a cheap price. But I don't like my hard earned money thrown away that way. But you are right Israel is not to blame for that.

[Silent Reader]

Why do people believe that the Israelis will actually get the aid?

tradition, force of habit, a recurring pattern p-)

[RoyB]

We'll see.

[tanks_alot]

For those that claim that Germany bows down to every Israeli whim, i'd like to remind Germany's refusal to sell Israel engine parts for the Merkava MK4, at the height of the second Intifada in 2002.

At the end of the day, if your government decides to approve it, then you're welcome to complain to them, but don't blame us for making a good deal on our side of the fence. no one forced your politicians to agree.
Either way, i suggest we wait and see what will come out of these negotiations.

[Kaplanr]

I very simply checked the wikipedia sources (which are surely flawed and very likely didnt even include all nations fighting serious Sea-battle in the time from 1950 - 2009)

(although I get told by most of my Universit profs that wikipedia is a "rouge" source) I got the impression that at least the general outline and wikipedia sources on this quite researched article are quite correct or at least acceptable as a source to debate and take out flaws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_naval_battles

I admit directly that I did not check the initial sources due to some language problems (im restricted to German, English, some sort of French and Spanish - sadly I did not get to learn Latian or old Greek, but that wasnt my choise but the one of my parents )

OK, maybe the Praying Mantis action (US v. Iran.) but that's stretching the envelope IMHO. The rest (outside of UK - Argentina which I mentioned) don't rise tot he occasion.

[Vandervahn]

...
Besides, I think that the Germans will go for ALMOST any deal as long as the shipyards are working so they wont go bankrupt.
...

That.

Weapon deals with Israel are always an easy, no-questions-asked way for Germany to keep its defense industry alive.

[Herman the II]

There is currently no reason to aid TKMS B&V, therefore I doubt we will see any significant aid.
The Israelis recently asked for financial support for a sixth Dolphin and it looks like it was turned down also. TKMS HDW has work for the next decade so there was no aid.

[squidO]

Why do people believe that the Israelis will actually get the aid? So far they have only asked for it....
Еven this we don't know with certainty.
So far it is just newspapers speculations.

[squidO]

For those that claim that Germany bows down to every Israeli whim, i'd like to remind Germany's refusal to sell Israel engine parts for the Merkava MK4, at the height of the second Intifada in 2002.

Yes, a few years ago there was a story with German refusal to sell engine parts to Israel.

A solution has been found to the German arms embargo against Israel, imposed because of the confrontation with the Palestinians.
The embargo threatened to derail production of Israel's new Merkava Mk.-4 tank. Developed in an IDF workshop, the tank uses a German-built transmission system.
A senior defense establishment source told "Globes" is for the transmissions to be built in a US plant affiliated with the German manufacturer. The products will probably be designated as "Made in the USA". The transmissions delivery timetable will therefore not be affected.
Ministry of Defense director general Amos Yaron added, "We have no problem in principle with Germany about the procurement of the transmission systems for the new tank."
Israel does not rule out taking action against countries embargoing the arms purchases from or sales to Israel. This trade totals only $100 million a year.

So all these complains about successful exploit of German "guilt-complex" by Israelis are merely bullshyt.

[little icebear]

The engine of the Merkava is not an Israeli design. It is a standart MTU engine and it was clear from the very beginning that the production would be done by General Dynamics in the US. That´s how our military industry keeps a low profile. BTW: Israeli companies have been cooperated with German companies for deals unpopular in Germany just like US companies have been used as a detour for sales to Israel. Tank upgrades for Turkey, done by Israeli companies for example involved German technology as well.

Nothing to do with the Intifada but with the Middle East conflict in general. Don´t know what tabloid came up with this nonsense.
Technology transfer for land systems from Germany to Israel have alway been done discreetly and mostly on detours.
I know - popular belief around here is that the "in use with the IDF" seal is thought to be a good means for advertising, but it is not so simple.
When the next act of "selfdefense" comes at the cost of god knows how many civilians, it is not a thing you want your company´s name to be affialiated with. And it is supposed to be Germany´s policy not to send weapons into countries that are in state of war.
Not that we would have ever really cared about that to the letter...

[RoyB]

not to send weapons into countries that are in state of war.
That's one hell of a stupid rule.

And you're taking this to unwanted directions with your 'selfdefense' and 'civilian cost'..

[little icebear]

And you're taking this to unwanted directions with your 'selfdefense' and 'civilian cost'..

I don´t. I say it as it is. There is zero interest for German companies to read in the media that evil zionist tanks with German engines roam through Gaza.
That´s why. Not because of the 02 Intifada. It´s always been that way.

[squidO]

little icebear (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=28322), some people here, over and over again, thread after thread, insist that Israel dishonestly exploit Germany "guilt complex", so the poor Germany taxpayers are about to be left without their last pants.

The entire base of all these allegations is that once, 15 or 20 years ago, German government for some reasons decided to partly subsidize the sale of 3 submarines to Israel.

The story of the parts for the tank engine is just an example of what all these claims are exaggerated to say the least.

[johanness]

That's one hell of a stupid rule.

And you're taking this to unwanted directions with your 'selfdefense' and 'civilian cost'..

Do you ever in the real life meet a German?

[RoyB]

Do you ever in the real life meet a German?
How is that relevant? what this has to do with the quote?

[johanness]

How is that relevant? what this has to do with the quote?

'cause I believe you know nothing about what Germans think and do nowadays.

And it's even more complicated, Germany isn't just one person ...

[RoyB]

'cause I believe you know nothing about what Germans think and do nowadays.

And it's even more complicated, Germany isn't just one person ...
I never claimed I know anything about what Germans think or do. Nor do I base anything on just one person.
Where are you heading?

[johanness]

I never claimed I know anything about what Germans think or do. Nor do I base anything on just one person.
Where are you heading?

I ment, people in Germany know what happened in the third Reich in the name of Germany.
And therefor we take the responsebility.

Shortly after the second world war, Germany had it's ways to help the Israelian in any way it was possible.
Until now, we do it ... without ringing the bells.

[RoyB]

I ment, people in Germany know what happened in the third Reich in the name of Germany.
And therefor we take the responsebility.

Shortly after the second world war, Germany had it's ways to help the Israelian in any way it was possible.
Until now, we do it ... without ringing the bells.
I didn't doubt that.
What I do doubt is that Germany bows down to their Israeli masters, and answers with a 'Will do' to every demand Israel makes. Thinking that is just being naive.

[Silent Reader]

I don´t. I say it as it is. There is zero interest for German companies to read in the media that evil zionist tanks with German engines roam through Gaza.
That´s why. Not because of the 02 Intifada. It´s always been that way.

Actually the companies don't give a sh*t... they want to make money. Its the politicians that are afraid of such images and therefore block the sales that the companies otherwise would love to make.

[johanness]

I didn't doubt that.
What I do doubt is that Germany bows down to their Israeli masters, and answers with a 'Will do' to every demand Israel makes. Thinking that is just being naive.

Let us call it an agreemant between friends.

[johanness]

Actually the companies don't give a sh*t... they want to make money. Its the politicians that are afraid of such images and therefore block the sales that the companies otherwise would love to make.

That's not true.

We Germans allways prefer to sit on the high moral horse then to look after the money.

Anyway, we look after the work was done well.

[GiladS]

Israel seeks discount on two German warships

* German Meko preferred over U.S. rival vessel
* Israel looks for discounted deal by end of year
* Netanyahu, Barak due in Berlin next week


By Dan Williams (http://blogs.*******.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=dan.williams&)

TEL AVIV, Nov 25 (*******) - Israel plans to buy two warships from Germany rather than rival U.S.-made vessels and is negotiating with Berlin in the hope of clinching a discounted deal by year's end, Israeli officials said on Wednesday.

They said the Meko corvettes' purchase would be pursued by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defence Minister Ehud Barak when they visit the German capital on Nov. 30.

Built at ThyssenKrupp's (TKAG.DE (http://www.militaryphotos.net/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=TKAG.DE )) Blohm+Voss shipyards in Hamburg, the Meko costs around $300 million but Israel wants the German government to underwrite the sale. An official involved in the talks said Israel sought a discount of 20 to 30 percent. That would help the Meko outprice the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS), which is made by American firms General Dynamics Corp (GD.N (http://www.militaryphotos.net/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=GD.N )) and Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N (http://www.militaryphotos.net/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=LMT.N )) and which the Pentagon has been lobbying the Israelis to buy.

An Israeli official said despite the fact that U.S. defence grants would significantly defray the estimated $460 to $600 million cost of the LCS, the Meko topped the wish list.

"We want to close a deal by the end of the year. Now it comes down to financing issues with the Germans," he said.
A ThyssenKrupp official was in Tel Aviv this month to confer with the navy about fitting the Mekos with Israeli technologies to improve performance and reduce costs, the official said.

German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle, who visited Israel this week, declined to comment on the Meko negotiations.
Keen to atone for its Holocaust history, Germany has in the past partially financed major Israeli military acquisitions.

In 2006, it agreed to cover up to a third of the cost of an Israeli contract for two German-built Dolphin-class submarines. Israel already has three Dolphins, acquired at deep discounts.

If the Mekos are bought, Israel would plan to add as many as eight more of the ships to its fleet in the future. An Israeli official suggested that his country's battle-hardened reputation would serve as a useful endorsement for the German-made ship.

"The Germans have a domestic-industrial interest in helping us with this deal. There's also the prestige element, which would enhance the interest of other foreign customers."

http://www.*******.com/article/marketsNews/idUSGEE5AN12E20091125

[GiladS]

What I'm still not sure about is whether it's the Meko A-100 or the A-200 that Israel is interested in purchasing.

[little icebear]

[SIZE=5][B]
If the Mekos are bought, Israel would plan to add as many as eight more of the ships to its fleet in the future. An Israeli official suggested that his country's battle-hardened reputation would serve as a useful endorsement for the German-made ship.

"The Germans have a domestic-industrial interest in helping us with this deal. There's also the prestige element, which would enhance the interest of other foreign customers."

http://www.*******.com/article/marketsNews/idUSGEE5AN12E20091125

This mantra about how valuable the "approved by the IDF"-stamp is, is repeated over and over again, but I´m sure that it is vastly overrated... especially since the Meko designs are already in worldwide usage. Don´t want to sound like a flag-waving Germania-strrrrrrong!11!-Guy, but "Made in Germany" is still good enough for most people, thank you. ;)

However, if these 2 ships are only the beginning and if Israel plans to buy some more, it could indeed be a good reason to help bringing this deal under way...



What I'm still not sure about is whether it's the Meko A-100 or the A-200 that Israel is interested in purchasing.

A-200 can already be rated as a Frigate... and if the Israeli navy really wants as many as 8 ships, do you think they would go for a Frigate sized ship class?

[Ought Six]

I guess that would depend on the IDF's forward-looking strategy. Do they foresee their navy remaining a coastal defense force, or do they foresee projecting naval power out into the eastern Med and beyond to protect shipping lanes and interdict possible enemy or terrorist vessels?

Looking at both the Iranian and terrorist threat, I think the latter is likely, and they may well wish to go with the frigate-size vessels. The variety of naval threats is increasing, from subs to false-flagged civilian freighters dropping mines and/or firing cruise missiles, to possible future pirate/terrorist activity against Israeli shipping in southern sea approaches, and more. I suspect that being able to control the seas farther out off of the coast, and even sending ships around the Cape of Good Hope to operate in the northwest Indian Ocean area if required is a very desirable goal to Israeli military strategic planners.

[GiladS]

A-200 can already be rated as a Frigate... and if the Israeli navy really wants as many as 8 ships, do you think they would go for a Frigate sized ship class?

If the Israeli navy goes for Frigate sized ships then this would seem like a change in doctrine.

There are reports that Israel is reinstating its amphibious capabilities so without a doubt the navy will have an increased importance in future conflicts and will be more relevant for operational flexability.

I believe that this would also mean acquiring more bolstered surface vessels to assist in such power projection, thus purchasing the A-200 would seem suitable.

Also worth mentioning that Israel has already increased it's role as a naval power in the Mediterranean by joining NATO's Active Endeavor.

Lastly I'll mention that mong the many reports on this issue, it was claimed that Israel is also interested in incorporating these ships into the country's missile defense project.

[deathil93]

If the Israeli navy goes for Frigate sized ships then this would seem like a change in doctrine.

There are reports that Israel is reinstating its amphibious capabilities so without a doubt the navy will have an increased importance in future conflicts and will be more relevant for operational flexability.

I believe that this would also mean acquiring more bolstered surface vessels to assist in such power projection, thus purchasing the A-200 would seem suitable.

Also worth mentioning that Israel has already increased it's role as a naval power in the Mediterranean by joining NATO's Active Endeavor.

Lastly I'll mention that mong the many reports on this issue, it was claimed that Israel is also interested in incorporating these ships into the country's missile defense project.
Indeed. Were probably getting the A-200 for its size as it needs to fit the new radar from IAI (forgot the name) as the Sa'ar 5s are too small.

Maybe we will see a couple of hovercraft type landing craft coming into service later in the future as they want to improve Givati's (or was it Golani?) brigade' role as a marines type brigade.

And if you realy want to dream, how about an amphibious assualt deck in the future :)

[GiladS]

Maybe we will see a couple of hovercraft type landing craft coming into service later in the future as they want to improve Givati's (or was it Golani?) brigade' role as a marines type brigade.


The Givati Brigade was originally established in the 80s to be a designated marine force but this capability was neglected since the 90s.

I believe it's only natural that the brigade returned to filling this role.



And if you realy want to dream, how about an amphibious assualt deck in the future :-)


There's a reson it is only a dream. p-)

[RoyB]

^Hold your horses.

Most if not all reports has only mentioned the Meko-100, so lets not speculate on the unlikely.
I couldn't not imagine what are the future plans for the Israeli Navy. If what is reported is true, that Israel plans to add as much as eight such vessels in the future, than its quite 'revolutionary'.

[GiladS]

If what is reported is true, that Israel plans to add as much as eight such vessels in the future, than its quite 'revolutionary'.

Yeah, the Navy would pobably no longer be the smallest corps in the IDF.

[Strongie]

Do other countries get this discounts? In that case I heard Russia is looking for a amphibious assult ship, considering the history of WW2 I think Germany could build them one as well.

[RoyB]

Do other countries get this discounts? In that case I heard Russia is looking for a amphibious assult ship, considering the history of WW2 I think Germany could build them one as well.
Go troll somewhere else, troll.

[GiladS]

Do other countries get this discounts? In that case I heard Russia is looking for a amphibious assult ship, considering the history of WW2 I think Germany could build them one as well.

That's all up to the German government to decide.

[Difool]

Do other countries get this discounts? In that case I heard Russia is looking for a amphibious assult ship, considering the history of WW2 I think Germany could build them one as well.

No, you became the bad guys again (tolko shutka).

[Stonewall71]

That.

Weapon deals with Israel are always an easy, no-questions-asked way for Germany to keep its defense industry alive.


By that line of reasoning they could offer Portugal some more subs for free (we are paying this world and the next for two)
Also I bet South Africa would not mind getting some more U209s for free.

Portugal and South Africa (just to name two) are very eager to keep Germany's Defense Industry alive and kickin' p-)

[Difool]

By that line of reasoning they could offer Portugal some more subs for free (we are paying this world and the next for two)
Also I bet South Africa would not mind getting some more U209s for free.

Portugal and South Africa (just to name two) are very eager to keep Germany's Defense Industry alive and kickin' p-)

Reasoning? What's that good for? It's just like it is.

[Gammelpreusse]

Do other countries get this discounts? In that case I heard Russia is looking for a amphibious assult ship, considering the history of WW2 I think Germany could build them one as well.

Unlike the jews, the russians got a lot of fresh flesh to have fun with, a lot of expendable workforce to employ at will, lots of land to distribute freely and the industrial capacity and infrastructure of a third of Germany coupled with our cultural roots, now stored in some rooms in the St. Petersburg Ermitage and Mosco safes. So much technology and scientists they could jumpstart russian science next to what they had anyways and on top of that half a continent to do with as they saw fit.

I don't think there are any open bills left on either side, in this regard.

As to the jews, that is a different story completly. And even if I personally think after 60 years it's time to get back to business as usual, a certain responsebility towards these ppl will remain, and if only as a reminder to ourselves. Some subisidies to keep our workers busy and keep the technology is in order for that, in my book.

[Difool]

Unlike the jews, the russians got a lot of fresh flesh to have fun with, a lot of expendable workforce to employ at will, lots of land to distribute freely and the industrial capacity and infrastructure of a third of Germany coupled with our cultural roots, now stored in some rooms in the St. Petersburg Ermitage and Mosco safes. So much technology and scientists they could jumpstart russian science next to what they had anyways and on top of that half a continent to do with as they saw fit.

I don't think there are any open bills left on either side, in this regard.

As to the jews, that is a different story completly. And even if I personally think after 60 years it's time to get back to business as usual, a certain responsebility towards these ppl will remain, and if only as a reminder to ourselves. Some subisidies to keep our workers busy and keep the technology is in order for that, in my book.
So it's more comparable to the murdered gays? The question is if you should use the Nazi systematic to mark those poor murdered jews as jews and not by their nationalities as Poles or Belgian. (IMHO it's jewiish German and not German jew). Does the state of Israel represent all of them? And what about the gays? Does the Israeli public regard the new German foreign minister as the successor of co-victims btw?

Wrote this just to underline my "reasoning" comment.

[RoyB]

So it's more comparable to the murdered gays? The question is if you should use the Nazi systematic to mark those poor murdered jews as jews and not by their nationalities as Poles or Belgian. Does the state of Israel represent all of them? And what about the gays? Does the Israeli public regard the new German foreign minister as the succeedor of co-victims btw?

Wrote this just to underline my "reasoning" comment.
:|!?
They were murdered in cold blood not so long ago(despite the common opinion) because they were Jews, not because they were Poles or Belgians.
What's your point?

[Gammelpreusse]

So it's more comparable to the murdered gays? The question is if you should use the Nazi systematic to mark those poor murdered jews as jews and not by their nationalities as Poles or Belgian. Does the state of Israel represent all of them? And what about the gays? Does the Israeli public regard the new German foreign minister as the successor of co-victims btw?

Wrote this just to underline my "reasoning" comment.

In a way, yes. Add to that gypsies, disabled people, social democrats, communists and so on. Pretty much all those people that got killed for their believes or ethnic background and without the bonuses granted by belonging to a winners nation. It really does not matter much who is in charge now. As long any nation claims the great times of its past for itself ("we" invented bookprinting, "we" made huge contributions to science, "we" made huge philosophical contributions, "we" kicked french ass again and again) , it also has to recognize the bad times, including the "we" as well. And as such "we" killed the jews and others is not only apropriate, but a logical consequence if you do not want to be a hypocrit.

[Difool]

:|!?
They were murdered in cold blood not so long ago(despite the common opinion) because they were Jews, not because they were Poles or Belgians.
What's your point?

My point is that if you try to measure the pain and dammage the Nazis have caused to whom you're gonna come to an dead end soon. So noone should try it.

[Gammelpreusse]

My point is that if you try to measure the pain and dammage the Nazis have caused you're gonna come to an dead end soon. So noone should try it.

Pretty convinient PoV.

[frenchy]

Germany is free to say "no" for discounts, if they want. And if I were israeli I would try too to get discounts. It's business after all.

When you sell something, usually your friends pay less than others. But you can say "no I can't".

[Gammelpreusse]

Germany is free to say "no" for discounts, if they want. And if I were israeli I would try too to get discounts. It's business after all.

When you sell something, usually your friends pay less than others. But you can say "no I can't".


And we could, if we wanted to. We take that responsebility ourselves for a reason, however, even though some folks are working hard on making Germany a "normal" nation again. A concept I consider rather unsexy, given what "normal" nations tend to do.

[GiladS]

Bottom line, it seems like giving Israel a discount on the ships is not only the kind thing to do but the smart thing to do.

[tluassa]

Germany is free to say "no" for discounts, if they want. And if I were israeli I would try too to get discounts. It's business after all.

When you sell something, usually your friends pay less than others. But you can say "no I can't".

Im all in favor of giving them a 20% discount on the 600 million Meko order if Israel gives Germany a 40% discount on the 300 million Heron-Uav :)

[RoyB]

Germany is free to say "no" for discounts, if they want. And if I were israeli I would try too to get discounts. It's business after all.
This.

And please lets not get into the Holocaust and who suffered the most, being a sensitive, complicated subject.. and not really the topic here.
If Germany wants, it can say 'No'. You want to complain, go to them.

[little icebear]

In that case I heard Russia is looking for a amphibious assult ship, considering the history of WW2 I think Germany could build them one as well.

The history in which Soviet Russia created the "GDR" and added Eastern Prussia to its own soil?

I´d ask Russia to do us a favour, but I can´t think of any piece of Russian military hardware that we couldn´t build better on our own.

[BorisA]

Weapon deals with Israel are always an easy, no-questions-asked way for Germany to keep its defense industry alive.


Strange that other countries are not so smart like the Germans to hiddenly subsidise their arms industries by donating new equipment (apart of the US but there is a lot of geostrategy involved unlike with the Germans)...are french, british, italian, dutch etc. shipyards so better off in this crisis?

And what is also strange is the fact that apart from Israel no other friendly state receives this discounts or gifts on new equipment ( at this scale).

Ein Schelm, wer böses dabei denkt (Evil who think evil on it)...:roll:

[RoyB]

Strange that other countries are not so smart like the Germans to hiddenly subsidise their arms industries by donating new equipment (apart of the US but there is a lot of geostrategy involved unlike with the Germans)...are french, british, italian, dutch etc. shipyards so better off in this crisis?

And what is also strange is the fact that apart from Israel no other friendly state receives this discounts or gifts on new equipment ( at this scale).

Ein Schelm, wer böses dabei denkt (Evil who think evil on it)...:roll:
Very strange..
Maybe you should address the GERMAN GOVERNMENT.

[BorisA]

Yes, they should be asked why the guilt-complex still works. Strange.

[frenchy]

Im all in favor of giving them a 20% discount on the 600 million Meko order if Israel gives Germany a 40% discount on the 300 million Heron-Uav :)

Good deal.
I agree. Good accounts make good friends. :)

[RoyB]

Yes, they should be asked why the guilt-complex still works. Strange.
'Still works'? what are you? a retard?
I suggest to stop here.

[BorisA]

Instead of explaining why other countries do not follow the path of Germany or why Israel gets this conditions you chose to insult me. Yes very conclusive. Thank you.

[Silent Reader]

The history in which Soviet Russia created the "GDR" and added Eastern Prussia to its own soil?

I´d ask Russia to do us a favour, but I can´t think of any piece of Russian military hardware that we couldn´t build better on our own.

well we could use some Mi-26 :)

[RoyB]

Instead of explaining why other countries do not follow the path of Germany or why Israel gets this conditions you chose to insult me. Yes very conclusive. Thank you.
OK, let me rephrase a bit..
You should address the GERMAN GOVERNMENT.

[Mackie]

Yes, they should be asked why the guilt-complex still works. Strange.

If I paint democracies blue and dictatorships red, the world will still look like the Mars.
As long as most Germans have no problems subsidizing the Israeli Navy, who cares?
The sub-contracts didn't make a headline in the past.

[BorisA]

As long as most Germans have no problems subsidizing the Israeli Navy, who cares? The sub-contracts didn't make a headline in the past.

Mackie, Google should be your friend.

[Difool]

Instead of explaining why other countries do not follow the path of Germany or why Israel gets this conditions you chose to insult me. Yes very conclusive. Thank you.

But RoyB is right. Ask those spineless politicians from who we let ourselves be reigned.

[Sootan]

But RoyB is right. Ask those spineless politicians from who we let ourselves be reigned.

Somehow beggars can be choosers too, eh?

[RoyB]

Somehow beggars can be choosers too, eh?
Yeah, I'm sure the Israeli officials are over there, on their knees begging for a discount.. but wait, didn't a lot of people here said that somehow ze Juice command Germany and can get whatever it wants? I'm confused.
Go cry somewhere else.. maybe to the German government's direction.

[Mackie]

Mackie, Google should be your friend.

Ohh yes outrage. rofl

[Herman the II]

So what happened to the deal? Any news ?

[GiladS]

So what happened to the deal? Any news ?

The deal was apparently discussed in mid January... further details are unknown.