Freed Swede Says Was Tortured at Guantanamo

[J-10]

Freed Swede Says Was Tortured at Guantanamo

July 14, 2004 — STOCKHOLM (*******) - A Swede released from Guantanamo Bay last week said he had been tortured by exposure to freezing cold, noise and bright lights and chained during his 2-1/2-year imprisonment.
Mehdi Ghezali, the son of an Algerian-born immigrant, told Swedish media in interviews published or aired Wednesday that he was interrogated almost every day at the U.S. naval base on Cuban soil.

The 25-year-old man, who was arrested in Pakistan where he says he was studying Islam, was released on July 8 after pressure from Sweden.

Ghezali told Dagens Nyheter daily and Swedish public radio he had cooperated for the first six months but stopped talking when his interrogators kept asking the same questions.

In April the military changed their tactics, he said.

"They put me in the interrogation room and used it as a refrigerator. They set the temperature to minus degrees so it was terribly cold and one had to freeze there for many hours -- 12 to 14 hours one had to sit there, chained," he said, adding that he had partially lost the feeling in one foot since then.

Ghezali said he was also deprived of sleep, chained for long periods in painful positions, and exposed to bright flashes of light in a darkened room and loud music and noise.

"They forced me down with chained feet. Then they took away the chains from the hands, pulled the arms under the legs and chained them hard again. I could not move," he said.

After several hours his feet were swollen and his whole body was aching. "The worst was in the back and the legs," he said.

Ghezali said he went Pakistan to study Islam in August 2001, before the September 11 attacks which triggered President Bush's war on terrorism and the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.

He said he was visiting a friend in the Afghan town of Jalalabad near the Pakistani border when the U.S. invasion started. He decided to return to Pakistan when he heard that villagers were selling foreigners to U.S. forces.

Pakistani villagers seized him as crossed the border from Afghanistan and sold him to Pakistani police, who turned him over to the U.S. military. He was flown from Pakistan to Afghanistan and arrived in Guantanamo in January 2002, he said.

He was released from Guantanamo on July 8 because he was no longer considered a threat to the United States.
ABCNEWS (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/*******20040714_48.html)

[The Treatment]

I wouldnt pay too mutch attention to what that muppet has to say, before he went to his "vacation" in Afghanistan as he puts in in swedish newspapers.He was under investigation i Portugal for different types of fraud.

[Flagg]

Freed Swede Says Was Tortured at Guantanamo

July 14, 2004 — STOCKHOLM (*******) - A Swede released from Guantanamo Bay last week said he had been tortured by exposure to freezing cold, noise and bright lights and chained during his 2-1/2-year imprisonment.
Mehdi Ghezali, the son of an Algerian-born immigrant, told Swedish media in interviews published or aired Wednesday that he was interrogated almost every day at the U.S. naval base on Cuban soil.

The 25-year-old man, who was arrested in Pakistan where he says he was studying Islam, was released on July 8 after pressure from Sweden.

Ghezali told Dagens Nyheter daily and Swedish public radio he had cooperated for the first six months but stopped talking when his interrogators kept asking the same questions.

In April the military changed their tactics, he said.

"They put me in the interrogation room and used it as a refrigerator. They set the temperature to minus degrees so it was terribly cold and one had to freeze there for many hours -- 12 to 14 hours one had to sit there, chained," he said, adding that he had partially lost the feeling in one foot since then.

Ghezali said he was also deprived of sleep, chained for long periods in painful positions, and exposed to bright flashes of light in a darkened room and loud music and noise.

"They forced me down with chained feet. Then they took away the chains from the hands, pulled the arms under the legs and chained them hard again. I could not move," he said.

After several hours his feet were swollen and his whole body was aching. "The worst was in the back and the legs," he said.

Ghezali said he went Pakistan to study Islam in August 2001, before the September 11 attacks which triggered President Bush's war on terrorism and the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.

He said he was visiting a friend in the Afghan town of Jalalabad near the Pakistani border when the U.S. invasion started. He decided to return to Pakistan when he heard that villagers were selling foreigners to U.S. forces.

Pakistani villagers seized him as crossed the border from Afghanistan and sold him to Pakistani police, who turned him over to the U.S. military. He was flown from Pakistan to Afghanistan and arrived in Guantanamo in January 2002, he said.

He was released from Guantanamo on July 8 because he was no longer considered a threat to the United States.

Current daily high temp in Guantanamo is 31C/90F with 93% humidity

Wouldn't air-conditioning in Cuba this time of year be considered a perq rather than torture?

Wus...

[Fargin]

Wus...Yeah just like the sissies who got killed and raped in Abu graib. :bash:

[moughoun]

So was he another 1 on a "computer course" in Afghanistan or what p-)

[seruriermarshal]

Wus...Yeah just like the sissies who got killed and raped in Abu graib. :bash:



Why you can see Abu graib event ? Because allies tell you that .

Allies have law , those criminal will be placed on trial (the military court is waiting for them) .

When Saddam kill and rape Iraq people where are your eyes ? No law to Saddam . So ,do you understand ? Allies troops opens the collective grave. You only then know all these .

:bash:

[Flagg]

Yeah just like the sissies who got killed and raped in Abu graib.

Listen Sparky......my comment was in jest.....

And to be honest, having spent enough time in South Florida around this time of year I find it quite amazing anyone WOULDN'T want to spend 12 hours in heavy duty air conditioning......especially when it's so bloody hot and humid most of the year :|

[n_shanygin]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0407/14/mehdiny200.jpg

"swede"

[Saranof]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0407/14/mehdiny200.jpg

"swede"

Yes, and I bet that all americans are white, blue eyed, and blonde too!
No sorry, that was your dream vision of the US..


The princible remains- He is innocent until proven guilty. I don't know, but I prefer for everyone to have a fair trial. But maybe that's just me, and my european ideals of a fair and honest justice system.

:roll:

[n_shanygin]

he's a terrorist

[The Treatment]

he's a terrorist

damn right

Why the Swedish government didn`t let him stay at summer camp is beyond me......

[Saranof]

he's a terrorist

Damn , and without a trial aswell..
I wonder what the taliban and the like would do to people caught in thier country? Yes, they would torture them.
So..what you are saying is that, if taliban/ Saddam or other torture people it's bad, but if US and UK do it, it's ok?

I just think that we are better than them, so we don't torture people. Simple as that.

[SerbPVO]

This guy is as Swedish...as I am...Albanian rofl

[b.scheller]

This guy is as Swedish...as I am...Albanian rofl

rofl

[Fargin]

Wus...Yeah just like the sissies who got killed and raped in Abu graib. :bash:



Why you can see Abu graib event ? Because allies tell you that .

Allies have law , those criminal will be placed on trial (the military court is waiting for them) .

When Saddam kill and rape Iraq people where are your eyes ? No law to Saddam . So ,do you understand ? Allies troops opens the collective grave. You only then know all these .

:bash:

I never claimed Uncle Saddam was a saint. But US claimed to be, like they claimed to be above the geneva convention, international and even their own laws. Like Guantanamo bay is under Cuban juristiction, I seriously doubt the marines would surender to a Cuban trafic cop. It doesn't take a genious to figure out what happenes in dungeons of Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo bay, when the commander in chief denies the prisoners their basic human rights.

I think the primary mistake made in Abu Graib, was the untrained and undisciplined staf got so accustomed to the abuse that they forgot that such behavior isn't acceptable in the real world and then they broadcasted their abuse. I think their behavior was amoral, not to confuse with immoral.


I just think that we are better than them, so we don't torture people. Simple as that.

Clearly we are not.


This guy is as Swedish

Serbs has always been known for their tollerance. Tell me what he is, if he isn't Swedish?

[Mark Sman]

freezing cold

In Cuba? Ummmmmmmm, no.

[Deuterium]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0407/14/mehdiny200.jpg

"swede"

Yes, and I bet that all americans are white, blue eyed, and blonde too!
No sorry, that was your dream vision of the US..


The princible remains- He is innocent until proven guilty. I don't know, but I prefer for everyone to have a fair trial. But maybe that's just me, and my european ideals of a fair and honest justice system.

:roll:

Enemy combatant my friend. If you'd like to compare be-headings and true torture to discomfort, let's have at it. If you'd like to compare picking up arms and shooting at Coalition forces to loud music, let's have at it. If you'd like to compare the denegration of women, the denegration of all religons but one, the denegration of all pretense of fair and just trials to sitting in a chair, let's have at it.

[b.scheller]

enough about the swedish terrorist...what is he going to do? drive a vovlo into the whitehouse, or throw explosive ikea made bombs? rofl

[Deuterium]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0407/14/mehdiny200.jpg

"swede"

Yes, and I bet that all americans are white, blue eyed, and blonde too!
No sorry, that was your dream vision of the US..


The princible remains- He is innocent until proven guilty. I don't know, but I prefer for everyone to have a fair trial. But maybe that's just me, and my european ideals of a fair and honest justice system.

:roll:

Enemy combatant my friend. If you'd like to compare be-headings and true torture to discomfort, let's have at it. If you'd like to compare picking up arms and shooting at Coalition forces to loud music, let's have at it. If you'd like to compare the denegration of women, the denegration of all religons but one, the denegration of all pretense of fair and just trials to sitting in a chair, let's have at it.

[Deuterium]

I think the primary mistake made in Abu Graib, was the untrained and undisciplined staf got so accustomed to the abuse that they forgot that such behavior isn't acceptable in the real world and then they broadcasted their abuse. I think their behavior was amoral, not to confuse with immoral.



Yes and the difference is that is was the US, in the form of a right-thinking soldier, yeah we have a LOT of those, that blew the whistle on the abuse. It wasn't you, it wasn't the international community, it wasn't pussi*s for peace, it was the US Army that identified the problem. We are a great nation(like many others in the world) not because of great triumphs, great men and women, or even great power, we are great because we CHANGE when problems are identified. No one tried to sweep this under the carpet of secrecy. The problem was identified very early on. The fact that this did not become such a widespread outrage was directly related to PICTURES. I remember reading about this incident when it first occurred reported by the Stars and Stripes. I remember, I was in Iraq at the time, our detention facility being inspected and the rules of proper protocol being reiterated over and over again. Well what the hell do I know.

[MEGR]

Anyone watch Jay and Silent Bob. If Jay and Silent Bob had a baby (if it was ever possible), it would look like this fella.

[to free the oppressed]

Anyone watch Jay and Silent Bob. If Jay and Silent Bob had a baby (if it was ever possible), it would look like this fella.
rofl

[budanski]

Yes and the difference is that is was the US, in the form of a right-thinking soldier, yeah we have a LOT of those, that blew the whistle on the abuse. It wasn't you, it wasn't the international community, it wasn't pussi*s for peace, it was the US Army that identified the problem. We are a great nation(like many others in the world) not because of great triumphs, great men and women, or even great power, we are great because we CHANGE when problems are identified. No one tried to sweep this under the carpet of secrecy. The problem was identified very early on. The fact that this did not become such a widespread outrage was directly related to PICTURES. I remember reading about this incident when it first occurred reported by the Stars and Stripes. I remember, I was in Iraq at the time, our detention facility being inspected and the rules of proper protocol being reiterated over and over again. Well what the hell do I know.
Great post Deuterium! Somehow its still easier to criticize and anti-american comments are so fashionable nowdays.

[DPGLAW]

I don;t buy that he is innocent....Who the **** would go to Pakistan or Afhganistan for any reason, it sure isin't a vacation spot or anything......If he wanted to study Islam (AKA terrorism 101) he could of gone to a school in his country. Im sure that they exist in every country.....In my opinion, he deserved exactly what he got.

[BlackRain]

I never claimed Uncle Saddam was a saint. But US claimed to be, like they claimed to be above the geneva convention, international and even their own laws. Like Guantanamo bay is under Cuban juristiction, I seriously doubt the marines would surender to a Cuban trafic cop. It doesn't take a genious to figure out what happenes in dungeons of Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo bay, when the commander in chief denies the prisoners their basic human rights.

I think the primary mistake made in Abu Graib, was the untrained and undisciplined staf got so accustomed to the abuse that they forgot that such behavior isn't acceptable in the real world and then they broadcasted their abuse. I think their behavior was amoral, not to confuse with immoral.



You are factually wrong in several places.

Error 1) "Like Guantanamo bay is under Cuban juristiction" Wrong.

Guantanamo Bay is a perpetually leased property in agreement signed by the Cuban and American governments. Crimes committed by US citizens in Guantanamo Bay are covered by the UCMJ and crimes committed by non-American citizens are covered by the local court system.

Error 2) "Geneva Convention" and "commander in chief denies the prisoners their basic human rights" Wrong.

The USA and our president are following law precisely for non-uniformed illegal combatants. The Geneva Convention and US Supreme Courts states clearly that they are not entitled to the rights of a POW.

According to the Geneva Convention, all combatants are required to wear identifying uniforms. The Convention especially provides for the eventuality that this provision is violated - those troops not so adorned are not legal combatants, and the provisions of the Geneva Convention thusly do not apply to them.

The term "illegal combatant" was first introduced in 1942 by the United States Supreme Court decision in the case ex parte Quirin. In this case, the Supreme Court upheld the jurisdiction of a U.S. military tribunal over the trial of several German saboteurs in the USA.

"...the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces.

Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals."


Geneva Convention: No rights for Illegal Combatants.


Protected persons rights are circumscribed when they commit hostile acts:

Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention. [Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 12 August 1949, Art. 5]

[Secret Squirrel]

I never claimed Uncle Saddam was a saint. But US claimed to be, like they claimed to be above the geneva convention, international and even their own laws. Like Guantanamo bay is under Cuban juristiction, I seriously doubt the marines would surender to a Cuban trafic cop. It doesn't take a genious to figure out what happenes in dungeons of Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo bay, when the commander in chief denies the prisoners their basic human rights.

I think the primary mistake made in Abu Graib, was the untrained and undisciplined staf got so accustomed to the abuse that they forgot that such behavior isn't acceptable in the real world and then they broadcasted their abuse. I think their behavior was amoral, not to confuse with immoral.



You are factually wrong in several places.

Error 1) "Like Guantanamo bay is under Cuban juristiction" Wrong.

Guantanamo Bay is a perpetually leased property in agreement signed by the Cuban and American governments. Crimes committed by US citizens in Guantanamo Bay are covered by the UCMJ and crimes committed by non-American citizens are covered by the local court system.

Error 2) "Geneva Convention" and "commander in chief denies the prisoners their basic human rights" Wrong.

The USA and our president are following law precisely for non-uniformed illegal combatants. The Geneva Convention and US Supreme Courts states clearly that they are not entitled to the rights of a POW.

According to the Geneva Convention, all combatants are required to wear identifying uniforms. The Convention especially provides for the eventuality that this provision is violated - those troops not so adorned are not legal combatants, and the provisions of the Geneva Convention thusly do not apply to them.

The term "illegal combatant" was first introduced in 1942 by the United States Supreme Court decision in the case ex parte Quirin. In this case, the Supreme Court upheld the jurisdiction of a U.S. military tribunal over the trial of several German saboteurs in the USA.

"...the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces.

Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals."


Geneva Convention: No rights for Illegal Combatants.


Protected persons rights are circumscribed when they commit hostile acts:

Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention. [Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, 12 August 1949, Art. 5]

Why did you quote the section in the GC about combatants and P.O.Ws?


Article 44.-Combatants and prisoners of war

3. In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in such situations, he carries his arms openly:

(a) During each military engagement, and

(b) During such time as he is visible to the adversary while he is engaged in a military deployment preceding the launching of an attack in which he is to participate

And why were there complaints or even discussions surrounding the GC by U.S investigators and guards when the story broke?

[ArmedPacifist]

I wonder what would turn up if an investigation was actually allowed in Gitmo.

[BlackRain]

And why were there complaints or even discussions surrounding the GC by U.S investigators and guards when the story broke?

That is a good question, I really don't have an answer.

The folks at Abu and G-Bay have no rights according to the Geneva Convention because they are illegal combatants. The prisoners are to be handled by military tribunals which is in accordance with US and international law.

The Swede in this case was captured, inprisoned, and released by the US military. He is alive and still has his head. Note the contrast in treatment in prisoners.

[usa320]

A Swede released from Guantanamo Bay last week said he had been tortured by exposure to freezing cold, noise and bright lights and chained during his 2-1/2-year imprisonment

It doesnt take much to be considered "torture" now a days. Telling the guy hes a dumb**** is probably considered torture by these ****ing pussies, yet when they chop of some heads no one says a word about that...

Torture my ass...we shoulda sent him to Egypt or Pakistan and had shown em what torture really is.

Boohoo...i live in freezing cold temperatures 7 months out of the year...

The little sweedish faggot is just a pansy.

[Dalleer]

enough about the swedish terrorist...what is he going to do? drive a vovlo into the whitehouse, or throw explosive ikea made bombs? rofl

Well , I doubt that he'll do anything.

Of course I must say that I have heard of alot more worse "torture" than this guy has been through , but then again in my opinion he only has himself to blame for being in that area at that time.

So the Pakistanis caught him, and gave him to the US troops. He looked as much Al Qaeda as the next guy , so his ass was jailed to Guantanamo.

Bad luck , but as many others said before me he is still alive and has not gone through as bad "torture" as many others.

As for him being Swedish , he was born here , am I correct ?

[n_shanygin]

No, he was not born in sweden.

[Dalleer]

Heh, well that settles it then..

[Pooga]

Aww, poor baby. It's getting too hard being a terrorist these days. :( :( :(

[seruriermarshal]

And why were there complaints or even discussions surrounding the GC by U.S investigators and guards when the story broke?

That is a good question, I really don't have an answer.

The folks at Abu and G-Bay have no rights according to the Geneva Convention because they are illegal combatants. The prisoners are to be handled by military tribunals which is in accordance with US and international law.

The Swede in this case was captured, inprisoned, and released by the US military. He is alive and still has his head. Note the contrast in treatment in prisoners.


You are right , In fact they are't prisoner of war . Hasn't right to enjoy prisoner of war's treatment .

[Truthsayer]

You are right , In fact they are't prisoner of war . Hasn't right to enjoy prisoner of war's treatment .

I'm gonna laugh when you get troops captured with the same argument - that is, a amade-up-bogus argument to avoid following international rules.

It's kinda obius the only point has been to sidestep any laws to take affect.

To bad the courts ruled otherwise now then.

[Fargin]

You are right , In fact they are't prisoner of war . Hasn't right to enjoy prisoner of war's treatment .
This is exactly why people are getting raped and tortured inside Camp Orange, Abu Graib and Afghanistan.

[El'Potato]

I wonder if I'm reading this?

OK, so US is a great country. Sure.
Well, if US is such a great country why for ANY reason do they abuse ANYone???

Hasn't the US taken enough of flak? Why add more reasons to be recieving it?

I mean, I don't care if you CAN abuse a prisoner because he has no rights according to the Geneva court.
BECAUSE if you are a CIVILISED country then you just DON'T LOWER yourself to those who you're fighting's level!!

Is it really that hard to get? Because that is one huge reason people give US flak. And really, we don't care if you say you don't care because YOU DO! Every single time someone says anything that MAY OR MAY NOT be considered offensive or negative about the US of A then every time it's the same persons claiming they don't care that posts crap like "stfu you eurowussiepinkogayischmother, we dun' caer' wut u sej 'cuzzzz we're damn right anywej yooo".



Anyway, I've lost my point many sentences ago but it still lingers: Want to be known as civilised? Well... BEHAVE like that.

[szr]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0407/14/mehdiny200.jpg

"swede"

Yes, and I bet that all americans are white, blue eyed, and blonde too!
No sorry, that was your dream vision of the US..

lol what? :roll: What's with some Europeans and their infatuation with comparing the US to Nazi Germany?

I'd take exposure to cold, bright lights, loud music, chains, uncomfortable positions and sleep deprivation, over finger nails being ripped out, electric shock to the ********s, fingers nose arms and ribs broken, being burned with fire, red hot metal or other hot objects, limbs and other body parts cut off, or being lined up against a wall and shot.

Why not go to Turkey to study Islam? Not militant enough for you? The guy is still alive and was released with his body fully intact. He should stop whining.

By the way, all detainees now have the right to appear before a judge with a lawyer, to challenge their detainment.

[Saranof]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0407/14/mehdiny200.jpg

"swede"

Yes, and I bet that all americans are white, blue eyed, and blonde too!
No sorry, that was your dream vision of the US..

lol what? :roll: What's with some Europeans and their infatuation with comparing the US to Nazi Germany?

I'd take exposure to cold, bright lights, loud music, chains, uncomfortable positions and sleep deprivation, over finger nails being ripped out, electric shock to the ********s, fingers nose arms and ribs broken, being burned with fire, red hot metal or other hot objects, limbs and other body parts cut off, or being lined up against a wall and shot.

Why not go to Turkey to study Islam? Not militant enough for you? The guy is still alive and was released with his body fully intact. He should stop whining.

By the way, all detainees now have the right to appear before a judge with a lawyer, to challenge their detainment.


It was actually a nasty sort of joke, aimed at showing how studid it is to say that he's not a sweed because he is "darker". It was aimed at making you think "wait, isn't X% of the US population black/asian/whatever?"

Oh, I bet you would. :roll:

You know, wasn't the US once know for like, human rights and stuff..now, this guy here (szr) is saying that things like human rights don't matter, as long as you have all body parts left when you get out of an internationally illegal prison.

Seriously..

If the US is so great and stuff (I know plenty of nice americans, so I doubt that they are all as reactionary as you) then why don't you show that you are better than the terrorists and not mistreat your captives? Show them that you are a civilised counrty, and those countrys are forbidded by international law from torturing prisoners.
Since we in the west are so nice and civilised ( :roll: ) why don't we just show them that we are just that and..well, you get my point. If we abuse terrorists, we are no better than them. Plus, it gives fule to the terrorists cause. All this has just gived more people a reason to fight the US, since it confirmes many people belife that the US just is a better organised means of state terror.

SO just be western and don't support torture, on anyone.

[Argyll]

You are right , In fact they are't prisoner of war . Hasn't right to enjoy prisoner of war's treatment .

I'm gonna laugh when you get troops captured with the same argument - that is, a amade-up-bogus argument to avoid following international rules.

It's kinda obius the only point has been to sidestep any laws to take affect.

To bad the courts ruled otherwise now then.

Do you mean the way in which Keith Maupin's captors followed the so called bull****polesmokertreehuggers wonderful convention?

[El'Potato]

I'm gonna laugh when you get troops captured with the same argument - that is, a amade-up-bogus argument to avoid following international rules.

I tend to agree with you, and I could see it happening.
I mean, why cry that the Iraqi insurgents abuse "prisoners" or ignores international treaties? Because the whole invasion of Iraq was illegal in first place.

That means that those doing warcrimes is by no means the Iraqis, but the US led coalition that attacked Iraq breaking all the laws of conducting warfare against another country. (I'm sure you all remembered the poo throwing between the UN and US, oh well.)

[Deuterium]

I wonder if I'm reading this?

OK, so US is a great country. Sure.
Well, if US is such a great country why for ANY reason do they abuse ANYone???

Hasn't the US taken enough of flak? Why add more reasons to be recieving it?

I mean, I don't care if you CAN abuse a prisoner because he has no rights according to the Geneva court.
BECAUSE if you are a CIVILISED country then you just DON'T LOWER yourself to those who you're fighting's level!!

Is it really that hard to get? Because that is one huge reason people give US flak. And really, we don't care if you say you don't care because YOU DO! Every single time someone says anything that MAY OR MAY NOT be considered offensive or negative about the US of A then every time it's the same persons claiming they don't care that posts crap like "stfu you eurowussiepinkogayischmother, we dun' caer' wut u sej 'cuzzzz we're damn right anywej yooo".



Anyway, I've lost my point many sentences ago but it still lingers: Want to be known as civilised? Well... BEHAVE like that.

So let me get your argument straight. If a handful of people in your country commit an atrocity you indict the entire country? There were some high profile murders in your country a while ago. Do we blame YOU personally for this crime? Do we blame the government? That is the problem we have with your argument. I said it before. I just got back from Iraq. I had daily contact with a detention facility. The actions of those individuals DID NOT REPRESENT and official or unofficial policy. They were actions of individuals.

[LeMat]

he's a terrorist

Who have told that? Any normal court proved that he is a terrorist?Is he a terrorist just because some dumb asshole from CIA told that? Who should recognize people as terrorists? I think that it is a job for a court.
Are we returning to the times of Stalin and Hitler when member of Gestapo or NKVD could told "you are a spy"?
I don`t like your way of thinking. Let`s prove that he is a terrorist and allow the court to punish him. If we don`t do it some day you will hear "you are a terrorist" and you will be locked in Guantanamo just because goverment wanted to do this. And you won`t be able to defend yourself.

[Aussie E]

At least he got released.
Get an interview from Berg, Muapin or the Bulgarian truck driver, Oh wait...... they got excuted without a trial or fair representation. :bash:

[LeMat]

At least he got released.
Get an interview from Berg, Muapin or the Bulgarian truck driver, Oh wait...... they got excuted without a trial or fair representation. :bash:

Yes. And that is why we are better (or we should be better). If you fight with evil you can`t become another evil because your fight will have no sense and you will lost.
We are fighting to protect our civilisation, our culture and so on. One of the main things in our civilisation is our law`s culture - courts, trials, ability to defend and so on. Terrorists will win If we break that rules.

[Simpen]

If it was up to me, I would have left him to rott in his cell on cuba...

[Pooga]

"We will kill this man unless you release ALL prisoners!"

"Firing squad! WHAT NOW HUH?!?!? WHAT NOW!?"




*Pooga slinks back into hole, muttering darkly to himself*

[aartamen]

he's a terrorist If we don`t do it some day you will hear "you are a terrorist" and you will be locked in Guantanamo just because goverment wanted to do this. And you won`t be able to defend yourself.

If they catch me on a battlefield firing at the US troops not wearing any sort of unifrom, at least I will not be surprised.

[LeMat]

If they catch me on a battlefield firing at the US troops not wearing any sort of unifrom, at least I will not be surprised.

Sure. But imagine - there can be situation that someone will lie that you have shooting to US Army. And you won`t have any chance to defend yourself.
We have some rules. If we break that rules in one case we will break it again and again and again... And one day you will wake up in IV Reich.
Breaking our rules is like surrender. By breaking it we say - "terrorist you have won because we couldn`t defend our rules".

[Fox2]

A Swede released from Guantanamo Bay last week said he had been tortured by exposure to freezing cold, noise and bright lights and chained during his 2-1/2-year imprisonment.

Coercion is legal. Torture is not.

As has been iterated previously in this thread;

WHAT TORTURE?!

Seems to me like "torture" is the new bandwagon word for being uncomfortable.

How have we "lost our moral high ground" in this case? Because we gave him some free air conditioning and blared AC/DC?

I mean, really, what are we supposed to do? Serve the man a three-course meal, a king-size bed, and a beautiful woman? He's in a military prison for crying out loud.

Abu Ghraib was a terrible, terrible incident, no one denies it. No one says it was right. Everyone expects better of our men in uniform. But that does not mean that every Tom, ****, and Harry who is chilled, grilled, and milled, and not assaulted in any way, can claim they were tortured.

Torture? Give me a damn break.

[Pooga]

Worst stuff happens in US jails. Nobody's whining about that (Nyer, but they got a fair trial. Yeah neither did Maupin, Berg, etc. Go cry about it. If you don't want to be beaten up don't fight for peope who behead civilians.).

Sigh.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The definition of "torture" continues its slide. Next, imprisonment itself will be considered torture. "I was deprived of my rights of freedom of movement and association. They didn't provide my favorite cable TV channels! The food was not as appetizing as I'm accustomed to!" Wah.

The real story is here is that the left leaning press will stop at nothing to discredit the military.

How many US prison inmates get out of jail every day and would complain similarly? Likely thousands. How many stores have you seen? None. Why? It doesn’t' fit the press' agenda.

[Pooga]

How many US prison inmates get out of jail every day and would complain similarly? Likely thousands. How many stores have you seen? None. Why? It doesn’t' fit the press' agenda.
Zackly.

[M203]

I dont like him! His story doesnt check out. To me he is a terrorist and frankly I think he is lying.

Maybe faults has been made when it comes to his stay at guantanamo but i dont like him and I dont really care.

Have a nice day

[szr]

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0407/14/mehdiny200.jpg

"swede"

Yes, and I bet that all americans are white, blue eyed, and blonde too!
No sorry, that was your dream vision of the US..

lol what? :roll: What's with some Europeans and their infatuation with comparing the US to Nazi Germany?

I'd take exposure to cold, bright lights, loud music, chains, uncomfortable positions and sleep deprivation, over finger nails being ripped out, electric shock to the ********s, fingers nose arms and ribs broken, being burned with fire, red hot metal or other hot objects, limbs and other body parts cut off, or being lined up against a wall and shot.

Why not go to Turkey to study Islam? Not militant enough for you? The guy is still alive and was released with his body fully intact. He should stop whining.

By the way, all detainees now have the right to appear before a judge with a lawyer, to challenge their detainment.


It was actually a nasty sort of joke, aimed at showing how studid it is to say that he's not a sweed because he is "darker". It was aimed at making you think "wait, isn't X% of the US population black/asian/whatever?"
You failed miserably

Oh, I bet you would. :roll:

You know, wasn't the US once know for like, human rights and stuff..now, this guy here (szr) is saying that things like human rights don't matter, as long as you have all body parts left when you get out of an internationally illegal prison.
Is that what I'm saying? Reading comprehension (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=comprehension). Learn it.

Seriously..

If the US is so great and stuff (I know plenty of nice americans, so I doubt that they are all as reactionary [Reactionary? Oh the irony] as you) then why don't you show that you are better than the terrorists and not mistreat your captives? Show them that you are a civilised counrty, [We Americans aren't so pollyannaish about the world as you. We know that terrorists give less than half a **** about what we do to prisoners. If we gave them Wine and Lobster, then released them, they'd go right back to training to destroy us. In the mean time, we have information to get, and we're not going to pass up chances for that information.] and those countrys are forbidded by international law from torturing prisoners.
Since we in the west are so nice and civilised ( :roll: ) why don't we just show them that we are just that and..well, you get my point. If we abuse terrorists, we are no better than them. Plus, it gives fule to the terrorists cause. All this has just gived more people a reason to fight the US, since it confirmes many people belife that the US just is a better organised means of state terror.

SO just be western and don't support torture, on anyone.

Ok listen up because I'm going to sum up what I'm saying in one sentence. Ready? Loud music, cold water, uncomfortable positions, "chains" [handcuffs and leg irons] are not torture.

I bet giving them soccer balls and allowing them to play football was torture too? Face it dude... Sweden exists in a different reality than those of us who have to deal with global terrorism. The fact that someone was able to casually walk up to Anna Lindh and stab her, illustrates the differences in security environments we live in. It's easy to say we're all the same, all the "west" or all part of the "civilized world" or what ever you like, when we DON'T share the same threats and challenges.

Edit: Actually seeing the way you troll other posts, I don't know why I even responded to you. Take care.

[Simpen]

The swedish government is so far to the left that I would call them socialists. Theyre lazy and ignorant against whats happening in the rest of the world and dont think they can make mistakes. The politics the socialdemocrats and the lefty-****s(called Vänsterpartiet) had been running is what I would call Doomsday politics. The fact that Anna Lind was stabbed to death is just a proof of what im talking about.

Sure this guy cant be a terrorist, the politicians says. "We just found about 5million SEK in his apartment and hes got a questionable past. But he cant be a terrorist, can he?"

The way I see it, sweden has to make a stand, we cant just stay "neutral" like WW2... We too has to act against the global terrorism and take our responsibity for a better world.

Go USA!

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Simpen, the Swedish goverment calls themselves socialists (so it's not just you).
Anna Lindh was killed by a psycho, not someone with a political motive, it has nothing to do with Swedish politics.
I övrigt så tyder din post på att du är relativt inskränkt och att du verkar sakna kunskaper, du kan inte jämföra 2vk med kriget mot terrorism.

To be considered a combatant it's enough that you:
Further, it may even be enough to carry weapons openly, and follow the rules of war. Even if there are further recomendations.

My point is that even if he was taking part in the fighting, he would be a prisoner of war, if he wasn't he was just a civillian.
Not saying that I like the taleban, just that you should measure everyone the same way.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Sorry double post

[LeMat]

To Fox2

UN has definition of torture. It is not only making a physical pain but also psychical pain and uncomfort if it is commited by officer and make to gain information or confession.
So using strong light or cold water is torture.

[Thor]

Simpen, the Swedish goverment calls themselves socialists (so it's not just you).
Anna Lindh was killed by a psycho, not someone with a political motive, it has nothing to do with Swedish politics.
I have to agree with Simpen. The murderer did'nt have a political agenda (or that we don't know actually, I suspect he did) but the point is that of course it had everything to do with swedish politics.


I övrigt så tyder din post på att du är relativt inskränkt och att du verkar sakna kunskaper, du kan inte jämföra 2vk med kriget mot terrorism.
Why can't he compare the current situation with WWII? I've heard many brilliant people do the same.

Now, think about this so called torture. Let's say you have intelligence saying that terrorists plan a massive attack with WMD on a major western city. One could expect millions of people to die. At this time your government inprison several hundred suspected terrorists. You have no genuine proof against most of them but at least you know for certain that they all have information regarding the upcoming attack. The problem is however that they refuse to talk. You now have two choiches. 1. You accept the fact that they refuse to talk and that millions of people will die because of this. 2. You approve the use of moderate torture to drag information out of them regarding the upcoming wmd-attack.

It's your choice..

I say it's time to get real.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Let's get real then, what did the murder of Anna Lindh have to do with politics (except for that she was a politician)? It wasn't really a terrorist act, that was caused by swedish foreign politics, if politics was a cause it would be healthcare and domestic security that had failed.

WWII and the war on terrorism is vastly different, or maybe I've slept through the blitz?

The situation you describe at the bottom, wasn't very realistic, when US invaded Afganistan.

If you look at Al-Qaeda as a number of separate cells operating on their own, there would hardly be any intelligence of greater value to collect from pows, specially not something about major operations, as it was in the interest of the Al-Qaeda leadership to keep them secret.
The value of the information now, when a couple of years have passed must be near nil.

[LeMat]

To Thor

It is serious problem. I think that we should have some rules to act in situations like this. Who should decide if situation is serious enough to use tortures? Guys from CIA or Mossad? Are you sure they will use their power only when it will be extremly needed? Are you sure that one day they won`t point you as next target? Why? Because they will say that you are a terrorist. But you aren`t... it doesn`t matter... they told that you are so they can do everything with you.
Rules must be everythere... no rules means end of our civilisation and victory of terrorists.
We fight to protect our rules... will we surrender?

[Fox2]

To Fox2

UN has definition of torture. It is not only making a physical pain but also psychical pain and uncomfort if it is commited by officer and make to gain information or confession.
So using strong light or cold water is torture.

If that was so, then that means that whenever a police officer interrogates a suspect, they are "torturing" him.

Could you show me any documents supporting that this is infact the definition of "torture" for the UN?

EDIT

Actually, I think I'll do it for you. I must be in a good mood today. ;)

Link (http://www.apt.ch/un/definition.shtml)


Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984

Article 1

For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

It seems as though it is not as cut and dry as either of us would like it to be. Whether or not bright lights, extreme cold, and loud noises falls under "severe pain and suffering" is up to interpretation. In my opinion, those conditions would not fall under "severe pain and suffering," but I suppose people will see what they want to see. ;)

[Pooga]

Of course, the US is the only country that has to follow this. ;)

[hank]

Wus...Yeah just like the sissies who got killed and raped in Abu graib. :bash:



Why you can see Abu graib event ? Because allies tell you that .

Allies have law , those criminal will be placed on trial (the military court is waiting for them) .

When Saddam kill and rape Iraq people where are your eyes ? No law to Saddam . So ,do you understand ? Allies troops opens the collective grave. You only then know all these .

:bash:

I don't understand. Your words make no sense. I know you are probably defending the US but if no one can understand you it does no good.

Sensory deprivation is not torture. WTF does the world think this yahoo will say? We had tea and takeout pizza everyday? It is called detention for a reason. He was being detained because he was suspected of terrorism.

If we had kept him in a tent he would be complaining about no AC as Flagg pointed out. Shut it.

UN definitions don't mean **** and they never have.

This is such a tired argument.

hank

[LeMat]

In my opinion, those conditions would not fall under "severe pain and suffering," but I suppose people will see what they want to see. ;)

In my country we say "punkt widzenia zalezy od punktu siedzenia". That means "point of view runs on point of sitting".

So if you will be tortured you will think something different than guy who is torturing you.

[Pooga]

I don't understand. Your words make no sense. I know you are probably defending the US but if no one can understand you it does no good.

Are you retarded, Sherlock? 1) He's not that hard to understand, 2) He's not a native speaker, obviously if you look at his name and his avatar.

[duck]

But you have to admit some of those phrases could become the next big t-shirt slogan in Japan.

[Pooga]

Yeah, it's engrish (http://www.engrish.com). But you don't insult him over it. Try explaining the things he's saying in his language (French or Italian, Marshal?).

Anyhoo…

[El'Potato]

I wonder if I'm reading this?

OK, so US is a great country. Sure.
Well, if US is such a great country why for ANY reason do they abuse ANYone???

Hasn't the US taken enough of flak? Why add more reasons to be recieving it?

I mean, I don't care if you CAN abuse a prisoner because he has no rights according to the Geneva court.
BECAUSE if you are a CIVILISED country then you just DON'T LOWER yourself to those who you're fighting's level!!

Is it really that hard to get? Because that is one huge reason people give US flak. And really, we don't care if you say you don't care because YOU DO! Every single time someone says anything that MAY OR MAY NOT be considered offensive or negative about the US of A then every time it's the same persons claiming they don't care that posts crap like "stfu you eurowussiepinkogayischmother, we dun' caer' wut u sej 'cuzzzz we're damn right anywej yooo".



Anyway, I've lost my point many sentences ago but it still lingers: Want to be known as civilised? Well... BEHAVE like that.

So let me get your argument straight. If a handful of people in your country commit an atrocity you indict the entire country? There were some high profile murders in your country a while ago. Do we blame YOU personally for this crime? Do we blame the government? That is the problem we have with your argument. I said it before. I just got back from Iraq. I had daily contact with a detention facility. The actions of those individuals DID NOT REPRESENT and official or unofficial policy. They were actions of individuals.



First of, sorry for not replying early enough, but my internet is kind of weird. Won't let me connect all the time :|

2nd, I think you missunderstood me. I didn't mean the Abu Graihb (sp?) incident. I meant the war as a whole. Because you're right, you can't blame the mass for some individuals doing. And THE SAME GOES FOR THE IRAQIS, I hope?

Just because there are some that beheads hostages it doesn't mean that every single one of them is that kind of a person. If anyone claims that, I will as arrogantly claim and try to dig up evidence that Abu Grhaib (sp?) was actually state sponsored and that there were Generals standing behind that decision.

I don't remember how the real thing was, so you could perhaps educate me? (I don't mean to be rude here actually :) Just don't remember :| ) Which rank was the most high ranking in the incident that got "caught"?

[ikurinturbiini]

Freed Swede Says Was Tortured at Guantanamo

July 14, 2004 ? STOCKHOLM (*******) - A Swede released from Guantanamo Bay last week said he had been tortured by exposure to freezing cold, noise and bright lights and chained during his 2-1/2-year imprisonment.
Mehdi Ghezali, the son of an Algerian-born immigrant, told Swedish media in interviews published or aired Wednesday that he was interrogated almost every day at the U.S. naval base on Cuban soil.

The 25-year-old man, who was arrested in Pakistan where he says he was studying Islam, was released on July 8 after pressure from Sweden.

Ghezali told Dagens Nyheter daily and Swedish public radio he had cooperated for the first six months but stopped talking when his interrogators kept asking the same questions.

In April the military changed their tactics, he said.

"They put me in the interrogation room and used it as a refrigerator. They set the temperature to minus degrees so it was terribly cold and one had to freeze there for many hours -- 12 to 14 hours one had to sit there, chained," he said, adding that he had partially lost the feeling in one foot since then.

Ghezali said he was also deprived of sleep, chained for long periods in painful positions, and exposed to bright flashes of light in a darkened room and loud music and noise.

"They forced me down with chained feet. Then they took away the chains from the hands, pulled the arms under the legs and chained them hard again. I could not move," he said.

After several hours his feet were swollen and his whole body was aching. "The worst was in the back and the legs," he said.

Ghezali said he went Pakistan to study Islam in August 2001, before the September 11 attacks which triggered President Bush's war on terrorism and the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.

He said he was visiting a friend in the Afghan town of Jalalabad near the Pakistani border when the U.S. invasion started. He decided to return to Pakistan when he heard that villagers were selling foreigners to U.S. forces.

Pakistani villagers seized him as crossed the border from Afghanistan and sold him to Pakistani police, who turned him over to the U.S. military. He was flown from Pakistan to Afghanistan and arrived in Guantanamo in January 2002, he said.

He was released from Guantanamo on July 8 because he was no longer considered a threat to the United States.
ABCNEWS (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/*******20040714_48.html)

The idiot crossed USA. For that, he should hang AND fry. He had some good ole American torture coming his way, so there. Next question, please...

[hank]

I don't understand. Your words make no sense. I know you are probably defending the US but if no one can understand you it does no good.

Are you retarded, Sherlock? 1) He's not that hard to understand, 2) He's not a native speaker, obviously if you look at his name and his avatar.

Wow, I missed this. Pooga, I did not insult him, I told him I could not understand him. Excuse the hell out of me for not being smart enough.

hank

[hank]

I don't understand. Your words make no sense. I know you are probably defending the US but if no one can understand you it does no good.

Are you retarded, Sherlock? 1) He's not that hard to understand, 2) He's not a native speaker, obviously if you look at his name and his avatar.

No, I am not retarded. Thanks for asking. You might consider checking that BS at the door. If I had bashed him I could understand. Look at my words.

I don't understand.

Sorry

hank

[Laworkerbee]

I wish they would stop calling this Ahole a Swede, he's a Taliban wanna be, looking to oppress women and murder anyone who doesnt follow his groups version of Islam.

These tango's should never have been taken prisoner in the first place.

[Truthsayer]

The idiot crossed USA. For that, he should hang AND fry. He had some good ole American torture coming his way, so there. Next question, please...

And how on earth did he do anything against the US?

[Truthsayer]

You are right , In fact they are't prisoner of war . Hasn't right to enjoy prisoner of war's treatment .

I'm gonna laugh when you get troops captured with the same argument - that is, a amade-up-bogus argument to avoid following international rules.

It's kinda obius the only point has been to sidestep any laws to take affect.

To bad the courts ruled otherwise now then.

Do you mean the way in which Keith Maupin's captors followed the so called bull****polesmokertreehuggers wonderful convention?

So you are saying that "you" are no better then some terrorist assholes?

I must be misunderstanding you, right?





he's a terrorist If we don`t do it some day you will hear "you are a terrorist" and you will be locked in Guantanamo just because goverment wanted to do this. And you won`t be able to defend yourself.

If they catch me on a battlefield firing at the US troops not wearing any sort of unifrom, at least I will not be surprised.

Incorrect, he was "captured" in pakistan, when some villagers sold him to the Paki. goverment, and they in their turn handed him over to the US Forces.

[ikurinturbiini]

The idiot crossed USA. For that, he should hang AND fry. He had some good ole American torture coming his way, so there. Next question, please...

And how on earth did he do anything against the US?

Hey, you're asking the wrong kind of questions! Watch it!

About time people face the facts. USA wanna invade a country, they do it. They wanna torture some people, they do it. They wanna put this guy in a camp in an orange jumpsuit, they do it. Doesn't matter what he did or didn't do.

Why? Because they can.

Such is the world we live in.

[aartamen]

Damn, I wish it was.

[BadKarma26]

It's because we're the best country in the world. Why else would so many people hate us?

[dumdidum]

All you phuck seems to have ignorde the simple fact that there are laws about these "illegal combatants". They are to be treated as civilians, and to be brought to civil justice.

[DPGLAW]

Well, I highly doubt that he jsut went to Afghan./Pakistan to study islam.....he could of done that in his own country. I think that he got what he deserved, being a terrorist and all, and I am just shocked that people can even call the methods employemd by us (the US & Allies)- Torture. I would call it uncomfortable.

Prison for these cameljockeys is not supposed to be easy. They have no rights and in my opinoin should be treated as such. We are too nice to them and I htink we need to "act like terrorists to catch terrorists"... these people do not respect the Geneva Conventions, they certainley didn't on 9/11. We should not be forced to allow them rights that they don't deserve or accord others themselves.

[ZeroPositive]

Git had it coming.