Foreigners in the country that is born

[ATLAS10]

Foreigners in the country that is born

A presidential decree ordered that children born in France, children of illegal immigrants deported




PARIS .- In order to escape deportation, Azeri ran to hide under the bed. The police did not try to drag her out from between the legs of the bed, but managed to threaten with its mission to stop his mother of Armenian descent. Azeris, seven years, surrendered. For the children of illegal immigrants living in Paris is not a tale of castles and royalty. Although born in France, including prevailing fear of deportation, which is that unlike the young Americans, children of undocumented parents in France, no child is a citizen by birth. In 2005 a presidential decree ordered the expulsion of illegal immigrant children. Under the new rules all "the offspring of illegal immigrants should be escorted out of France." The fear is latent. Some parents have chosen to hide or deny that they have children when they are arrested and deported by authorities, said Anthony Jahn, leader of the Education Without Borders (RESF), a network of 130 associations of teachers and parents, which has launched a campaign to protect immigrant children. "What they are doing to these children is horrible and not allow the authorities to destroy their lives. They are our future and have the same rights as any other French child," Jahn told La Opinión.
The expulsion of children is part of a policy introduced by former interior minister and current French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who seeks to reshape the identity of France and defends the law saying that France needed to "choosing" to immigrants.
But miles away, the model seems to drag Sarkozy's immigration supporters.
In the middle of this year, a similar bill was filed by California's anti-immigrant groups, who blame illegal immigrants and their children of the country's financial crisis. The bill entitled the Taxpayer Protection Act of California 2010 (CTPA-2010), seeks to deny U.S. citizenship to children of undocumented immigrants in California. French politician and his colleague, Tony Dolz, congressional candidate for District 30, asked to return babies to their parents if they are deported. In Paris, the police arrest juveniles in schools or public parks, noted Christopher Stone of the refugee center for immigrants The Cimade, a group of reporters invited by the French American Foundation. The decree also provides for up to five years imprisonment and a fine of up to 30,000 euros (about $ 35,000) for anyone helping immigrant children. "Donations for centers like ours have fallen terribly from the campaign of criminalizing undocumented immigrants and blame them for ills such as economic crisis or the lack of jobs, but we still have many people who see immigration as a humanitarian issue," says Stone .

Childhood fear

The November cold permeates his bones. Opposite the famous Cathedral of Notre-Dame de Paris, hundreds of tourists are mixed with a small crowd who carries photographs of children behind bars or crying mothers embraced their sons. Protesting the mass deportation of children and young children of illegal immigrants. In 2007 more than 250 children were expelled. Last year's record rose to 27.796 repatriated abroad.
Among tourists and activists, highlighting the cold red cheeks of dozens of children accompanying their parents.
The icy little hand holding tightly Angela Didier, his younger brother who is desperate to run with her mother of Nigerian origin who walks through the crowd.
Angela tries to speak English, but it beats the frustration, he prefers the French, their language by birth, but for the country it is not considered a legal citizen.
"Ce n'est pas juste que nous criminalis (not just that we discriminalicen)" says angrily, is only nine years and words like Mankind, the compassion, the criminalization, escape easily.
Like the other children attending the protest, Angela confess that he has never set foot Eiffel Tower or know the famous Louvre Museum, for them life is reduced to a ghetto, the slums of France where they accumulate the stories of dozens of children French in danger of being deported.
Around six o'clock, the bells of the Cathedral, situated on the fourth district of the city, thunder and silence the voices of the protesters.
Located in the tiny Ile de la Cité, surrounded by the waters of the Seine, the Catholic Church attracts thousands of tourists every year. It also attracts dozens of protesters who recently decided to make this place, center of struggle for the rights of children.
"At first trying to run from here, arguing that we gave a bad example to foreign tourism, but people are not allowed and still here," says Jahn.
Tourists show little interest in the protesters, but great enthusiasm or photographed against a Catholic symbol which was completed in 1245.
Angela and the other children have become accustomed to being ignored by foreigners, so as to be called "les sans-papiers" (those without papers)
By nightfall, pick up the banners with his parents and starts, by subway, the way back home. For them, all born in Paris, this city is not a fairy tale.
A decree has up to five years imprisonment and a fine of up to 30,000 euros (about $ 35,000) for anyone helping immigrant children.

spanish link:
http://www.impre.com/laopinion/noticias/2009/11/24/extranjeros-en-el-pais-que-los-160415-1.html

[Chulo]

Children of Illegal immigrants should be deported. Makes sense. The same way you cant profit from crimes, you should not profit (get citizenship) if you broke laws to get it.

[Ordie]

Children of Illegal immigrants should be deported. Makes sense. The same way you cant profit from crimes, you should not profit (get citizenship) if you broke laws to get it.

What about those who have served in the military, earned a college degree and contributing towards the nation of thier birth?

Myself included.

[johanness]

Children of Illegal immigrants should be deported. Makes sense. The same way you cant profit from crimes, you should not profit (get citizenship) if you broke laws to get it.

What crimes did the children commited they take a profit of?

[Rugal09]

What about those who have served in the military, earned a college degree and contributing towards the nation of thier birth?

Myself included.

Don't you have to be a permanent resident(green card) to serve in the military?

[Kletterbuxe]

What about those who have served in the military, earned a college degree and contributing towards the nation of thier birth?

Myself included.

How is it possible to serve and earn a college degree as an illegal ?

[Breerman]

What crimes did the children commited they take a profit of?
Common Law societies in general use jus soli i.e. place of birth to determine citizenship whereas Roman Law influenced societies don't.

I think it's the same all over Europe. Children born to non-citizens don't automatically become citizens.

[Ordie]

How is it possible to serve and earn a college degree as an illegal ?


Don't you have to be a permanent resident(green card) to serve in the military?

According to the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, I am an American Citizen by birthright.

[Ordie]

Children born to non-citizens don't automatically become citizens.

Including acculturated Germans of Turkish grandparents?

I find it ironic that Russians with a drop of German blood are eligible for citizenship while people born, raised and pay taxes in Germany of Turkish parentage are not eligible for German Citizenship.

Go figure?

[Chulo]

What crimes did the children commited they take a profit of?
The citizen child is the profit of the illegal act.

[cbreedon]

According to the 14th Amendment of the Constitution, I am an American Citizen by birthright.

The orginal intent of the amendment was to give ex-slaves US citizenship, not to give children of illegal immigrant those rights.

[Kippari]

Including acculturated Germans of Turkish grandparents?

I find it ironic that Russians with a drop of German blood are eligible for citizenship while people born, raised and pay taxes in Germany of Turkish parentage are not eligible for German Citizenship.

Go figure?

Europe is a bunch of nation-states. Ethnicity is what draws the boundaries here. In good and in bad. Germany is a place for German people to live among their own just like the Turkey is for Turkish people. Obviously it's not this simple but the point still stands. You can aply for a different citizenship but you're not guaranteed to get one.

[johanness]

The citizen child is the profit of the illegal act.

From the childrens point of view there was no crime before it was born, and so it it's not responsible for the actions before.

After all, a children is a human and not a cargo.

[little icebear]

Including acculturated Germans of Turkish grandparents?

I find it ironic that Russians with a drop of German blood are eligible for citizenship while people born, raised and pay taxes in Germany of Turkish parentage are not eligible for German Citizenship.

Go figure?

Your not "up to date", Ordie. ;)

Since January 2000, it works like this: if one of your parents has lived in Germany legally for 8 years and you are born here, you get citizenship.

Plus you can get German citizenship if you´ve lived here legally for 8 years.

I´m not totally sure what about the children of asylum seekers, but I will ask a friend tomorrow.
She´s recently got naturalized and her familiy came here as asylum-seekers in the mid-nineties. I think it´s got something to with with staying here for more than 6 years... not sure.

[Ordie]

Your not "up to date", Ordie. ;)

Since January 2000, it works like this: if one of your parents has lived in Germany legally for 8 years and you are born here, you get citizenship.

Plus you can get German citizenship if you´ve lived here legally for 8 years.

Thank you

I stand corrected.

[Ordie]

The orginal intent of the amendment was to give ex-slaves US citizenship, not to give children of illegal immigrant those rights.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
-14th Amendment

There's no mention of slaves nor children of undocumented immigrants.

[Chulo]

From the childrens point of view there was no crime before it was born, and so it it's not responsible for the actions before.

After all, a children is a human and not a cargo.
Well tell that to the people that cross over the border to have a child for the sole purpose of getting citizenship or an excuse to stay in the other country.

[Kletterbuxe]

Including acculturated Germans of Turkish grandparents?

I find it ironic that Russians with a drop of German blood are eligible for citizenship while people born, raised and pay taxes in Germany of Turkish parentage are not eligible for German Citizenship.

Go figure?

Not really true. There is simply no automatism. Citizenship is nothing you get becouse you were born in Germany but everybody with a permanent residence permit is able to apply for citizenship if he fulfills basic requirements like speaking german and having no criminal record. So they are absolutly eligible for German citizenship.

[johanness]

Well tell that to the people that cross over the border to have a child for the sole purpose of getting citizenship or an excuse to stay in the other country.

Maybe we misunderstood in some points ...

I was not talking about children born in a place somewhere, but raised and educated for some years in a country, for what reasons ever ...

... just to be thrown back to a country they have no relationship with is traumatic.

[Chulo]

Maybe we misunderstood in some points ...

I was not talking about children born in a place somewhere, but raised and educated for some years in a country, for what reasons ever ...

... just to be thrown back to a country they have no relationship with is traumatic.
Yea, the parents should have though about that before they illegally entered a country to have a child.

[little icebear]

@ chulo

Your custom title truely fits like a glove.

[Ordie]

Maybe we misunderstood in some points ...

I was not talking about children born in a place somewhere, but raised and educated for some years in a country, for what reasons ever ...

... just to be thrown back to a country they have no relationship with is traumatic.


Or may have unintended consequences.

In the 1980's Many Salavdorian Civil War refugees settled in the Pico-Union area of Los Angeles. Many of the kids set up thier own gang to counter the local Mexican gangs.

When the cops did thier sweeps (During the Daryl Gates era), many of kids were deported to El Salvador. Being acculturated Americans and criminals, they were ostrasized by the Salvadorian society and targeted by the local cops with human rights records stemming from the Civil War.

As a result MS-13 was born and expanded with a vengence back into the US.

[pieisawesome]

Yea, the parents should have though about that before they illegally entered a country to have a child.

But especially the children, they should have thought of that before not deciding to be born in a different country.

[cbreedon]

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
-14th Amendment

There's no mention of slaves nor children of undocumented immigrants.
It was written in 1866... what just happened in the US? The 13th, 14th & 15th where all introduced to sort out legal issues from the freeing of the slaves, nothing else.

Later the courts re-interpreted this amendment in particular into all sorts of things unintended.

[Kit]

I don't believe that children of illegals should get automatic citizenship. That law is extremely exploitable. It's a common tactic for illegal aliens to cross the border with a pregnant wife, just to make deportation more complicated for the authorities.

If you're illegal, you shouldn't be here. Simple as that.

[Ordie]

But especially the children, they should have thought of that before not deciding to be born in a different country.

Just like these folks in Vietnam

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jah/94.1/images/engelmann_fig01b.jpg

[little icebear]

I don't believe that children of illegals should get automatic citizenship. That law is extremely exploitable. It's a common tactic for illegal aliens to cross the border with a pregnant wife, just to make deportation more complicated for the authorities.

If you're illegal, you shouldn't be here. Simple as that.

I don´t think that the case you´re describing is what makes people critize this policy. It´s rather because of cases in which you would deport a kid that has spent considerable time and has grown up into the society that his or her parents have entered previously...

[Chulo]

@ chulo

Your custom title truely fits like a glove.
If you believe illegal actions should be rewarded, that is your prerogative.

I have seen and know too many people that have waited years to get in legally to the united states and be turned down, I know a few people that have waited 10 years trying to get citizenship, and that time is spent on filling out alot of paperwork, having medical test done, interviews, legal fees and application fees.
While on the other hand, people that break the law automatically get a pass and get ahead of those that have waited years legally.

[Ordie]

I don't believe that children of illegals should get automatic citizenship. That law is extremely exploitable. It's a common tactic for illegal aliens to cross the border with a pregnant wife, just to make deportation more complicated for the authorities.

If you're illegal, you shouldn't be here. Simple as that.

More laws equates to more criminals.

Do you want more taxpayers or increase taxes to build more prisons.

[Chulo]

Just like these folks in Vietnam

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jah/94.1/images/engelmann_fig01b.jpg
Comparing apples to oranges

We are talking about illegal parents and the child of two non citizens, not the children of a citizen.

[cbreedon]

More laws equates to more criminals.
so we shouldn't have laws?



Do you want more taxpayers or increase taxes to build more prisons.

no need for prisons just more INS buses heading south....

[little icebear]

If you believe illegal actions should be rewarded, that is your prerogative.


And you want to punish the perp´s children instead of the perps. Wonderful prerogative. Wonderful...

[Chulo]

And you want to punish the perp´s children instead of the perps. Wonderful prerogative. Wonderful...
Yea, lets not jail men who have children because it would leave a child without a father. We dont want to punish the kids.

The fact is illegal actions must have a consequence, otherwise, whats the use of having laws?

[Ordie]

If you believe illegal actions should be rewarded, that is your prerogative.

I have seen and know too many people that have waited years to get in legally to the united states and be turned down, I know a few people that have waited 10 years trying to get citizenship, and that time is spent on filling out alot of paperwork, having medical test done, interviews, legal fees and application fees.
While on the other hand, people that break the law automatically get a pass and get ahead of those that have waited years legally.

Its not a question of getting back of the line, but which line to take.

A Cuban can simply walk across the US Border at Brownsville and get an automatic Green Card. While a Haitian in similar circumstances does not have the same privilage.

Both Taiwan and the PRC are alloted an equal number of visa's on the premise of teating the PRC and ROC the same.

40% of undocumented immigrants arrive legally mostly through visa waiver countries.

Yet we have no means of tracking of people who leave the country.

This is why we urgently need immigration reform that is based on the economic, educational and social needs of the country. Not based on arbitrary political policies of the day or nativist reactionary rants.

[little icebear]

Yea, lets not jail men who have children because it would leave a child without a father. We dont want to punish the kids.

Odd comparison :roll:



The fact is illegal actions must have a consequence, otherwise, whats the use of having laws?

I thought your law says = Being born in the USA gets you your American ID. There you have it. Everything´s fine, no kid is going to be deported...

[Ordie]

no need for prisons just more INS buses heading south....

How can you deport an undocumented Irishman or Chinese by bus?

If you deport by denying birthright, there may be the consequence that the parent's home nation will not accept them.

Thus becoming stateless people.

[Chulo]

Its not a question of getting back of the line, but which line to take.

A Cuban can simply walk across the US Border at Brownsville and get an automatic Green Card. While a Haitian in similar circumstances does not have the same privilage.

Both Taiwan and the PRC are alloted an equal number of visa's on the premise of teating the PRC and ROC the same.

40% of undocumented immigrants arrive legally mostly through visa waiver countries.

Yet we have no means of tracking of people who leave the country.

This is why we urgently need immigration reform that is based on the economic, educational and social needs of the country. Not based on arbitrary political policies of the day or nativist reactionary rants.
And a logical step would be to tighten the borders, close loopholes and remove incentives that keep people in the country. Which would mean also not giving full citizenship rights to people who are present illegally.

[Ordie]

I thought your law says = Being born in the USA gets you your American ID. There you have it. Everything´s fine, no kid is going to be deported...

You cannot deport a US Citizen.

[Chulo]

Odd comparison :roll:

A straight forward comparison.
Break a law go to jail face the consequence, even if that means having to leave your kids.

Enter in the country illegaly, face the consequences, even if that means having to leave your kids or take them with you.




I thought your law says = Being born in the USA gets you your American ID. There you have it. Everything´s fine, no kid is going to be deported...

The law also says you can not profit from an illegal activity.

[cbreedon]

Its not a question of getting back of the line, but which line to take.

A Cuban can simply walk across the US Border at Brownsville and get an automatic Green Card. While a Haitian in similar circumstances does not have the same privilage.

Both Taiwan and the PRC are alloted an equal number of visa's on the premise of teating the PRC and ROC the same.

40% of undocumented immigrants arrive legally mostly through visa waiver countries.

Yet we have no means of tracking of people who leave the country.

This is why we urgently need immigration reform that is based on the economic, educational and social needs of the country. Not based on arbitrary political policies of the day or nativist reactionary rants.
I agree that we have lots of immigration policies that are outdated and should be gotten rid of. I too have several good friends who have been trying to get citizenship for 8-10 years. I am an immigrant myself as is my wife.

But when I hear immigration reform, I cringe. Mainly because I believe all that means is giving illegal immigrants legal status. I am pretty sure if a national vote was taken, giving legal status to illegals would soundly lose. The People don't want to reward people for illegal actions.

[cbreedon]

How can you deport an undocumented Irishman or Chinese by bus?

If you deport by denying birthright, there may be the consequence that the parent's home nation will not accept them.

Thus becoming stateless people.

Ordie, You and I both know where the majority of the illegal immigrants come from....

The illegal Irish and Chinese can be put on boats. p-)

I am sorry for the children but you just cannot reward illegal conduct. If you do you are just inviting more and more people to break the law. We cannot sustain the rate of immigration to this country. It has to slow dramatically. Most of the growth is from immigration. I don't know about you but my commute is bad enough now. We cannot have more people with our infrastructure (roads, powergrid, etc)

[Ordie]

And a logical step would be to tighten the borders, close loopholes and remove incentives that keep people in the country. Which would mean also not giving full citizenship rights to people who are present illegally.

Given the economic situation, I know many undocumented immigrants who want to return to be with loved ones. Many have contemplated turning themselves in to ICE but do not want to spend months in jail.

Therefore they are in limbo. They cannot afford to go back home because of lack of travel documentation, nor do they want to go to jail. The best thing that the US can do is to provide a 'going home' amnesty without jail time and waive any due process. The exepetions would be given for those with with a felony record or escape from child support.

You will be surprised how many would take up the offer.

[Chulo]

Given the economic situation, I know many undocumented immigrants who want to return to be with loved ones. Many have contemplated turning themselves in to ICE but do not want to spend months in jail.

Therefore they are in limbo. They cannot afford to go back home because of lack of travel documentation, nor do they want to go to jail. The best thing that the US can do is to provide a 'going home' amnesty without jail time and waive any due process. The exepetions would be given for those with with a felony record or escape from child support.

You will be surprised how many would take up the offer.
If only the government could take a stand and take the necessary actions, and not weigh it by the number of votes they would get or loose


P.S its USCIS, not ICE anymore

[Ordie]

Ordie, You and I both know where the majority of the illegal immigrants come from....

The illegal Irish and Chinese can be put on boats. p-)

There hasn't been regular passenger ship service between Boston and Ireland since the Great Potato Famine.

There have been cases where the Chinese government refused Chinese deportees from the US. (10% of undocumented immigrants are from Asia)

[Ordie]

If only the government could take a stand and take the necessary actions, and not weigh it by the number of votes they would get or loose


P.S its USCIS, not ICE anymore


It's political since the census data includes undocumented immigrants as well. The census data determines the number of congressional seats and allocation of federal resources.

2010 is around the corner.

[Chulo]

It's political since the census data includes undocumented immigrants as well. The census data determines the number of congressional seats and allocation of federal resources.

2010 is around the corner.
An election is always around the corner, this staggered election system ensures that.

[Ordie]

An election is always around the corner, this staggered election system ensures that.

If you're a Californian, you can recall how Proposistion 182 and 186 cost the GOP dearly.

The passage of the two poropsitions sparked a wave of naturalization application among immigrants who were granted amnesty under Simpson Mazolli Act. As soon as they became citizens, they became registered Democrats.

Ever since then the GOP never recovered in California.

[Rugal09]

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
-14th Amendment

There's no mention of slaves nor children of undocumented immigrants.

Yes, but this is France we're talking about. They have a different view on citizenship.

My argument is that if you recognize and give citizenship to children of illegal immigrants then legal immigration loses all its charm.

[pieisawesome]

You know what guys, I think I have seen the light. We cannot reward illegal activity, it only encourages more illegal activity. All those associated with criminals must be punished. All those children of illegals should imprisoned and swiftly deported.

We should learn from the Fro-er. . . French, and improve our own country. I propose a law, here in the states, that holds people responsible for the crimes committed by their parents. But why should you go to federal jail if your crazy old father tries to kill me for proposing this wonderful law, you ask? Ask your father, he should of thought of that before committing the crime!

[Chulo]

You know what guys, I think I have seen the light. We cannot reward illegal activity, it only encourages more illegal activity. All those associated with criminals must be punished. All those children of illegals should imprisoned and swiftly deported.

We should learn from the Fro-er. . . French, and improve our own country. I propose a law, here in the states, that holds people responsible for the crimes committed by their parents. But why should you go to federal jail if your crazy old father tries to kill me for proposing this wonderful law, you ask? Ask your father, he should of thought of that before committing the crime!
You dont understand the concept of "unjust enrichment"

[domokun]

You cannot deport a US Citizen.

Yep, but it's perfectly legal to deport his or her parents and possibly other siblings if they are illegal immigrants. They can take their kid with them if they want. There is nothing immoral in that and it's not punishing child that is citizen, but punishing illegal immigrants.

I think only ways of getting citizenship should be being born to citizens or by living in country without committing crimes for period of time. Refugees and asylum seekers that commit crime should be instantly, if they commit crimes they don't earn privilege of protection.

[Connaught Ranger]

Including acculturated Germans of Turkish grandparents?

I find it ironic that Russians with a drop of German blood are eligible for citizenship while people born, raised and pay taxes in Germany of Turkish parentage are not eligible for German Citizenship.

Go figure?

If they ethnic Turks accept German citizenship, does that stop them freely traveling to Turkey and back?

If accepting German citizenship does that still mean they are eligible for conscription in the Bundeswehr?

As for Russian-Germans are they not required to be fluent in German as well as other requirements before being granted permanent resident status?.

Connaught Ranger.

[BorisA]

If accepting German citizenship does that still mean they are eligible for conscription in the Bundeswehr? Yes they are (if they haven't served already in the Turkish Army), but generally people who are married, have children, pass 25, have a medical issue etc. do not need to serve. (not to mention the civil service etc.)



If they ethnic Turks accept German citizenship, does that stop them freely traveling to Turkey and back? No, but that does not depend on their turkish roots but on the visa regulations of Turkey regarding German citizens (i think no visa is requiered).
But Turks who obtained the German citizenship are eligible to apply for a Blue (yet i think it is Pink) Card which grants them many rights (apart voting and serving in official positions) i.e. legalcyetc.


As for Russian-Germans are they not required to be fluent in German as well as other requirements before being granted permanent resident status?.Before 1997 is was possible to migrate to Germany without knowledge of German if you could prove your german ancestry. But after 1997 knowledge of the language is necessary.

[Connaught Ranger]

BorisA, thanks for the clarification with regards the above, I worked with some Russian-German ladies from the Kazakhstan region, while living for 5 years (1997 -2002) in Kempten, Allgäu, Bavaria, my own spoken German was far from fluent, but, we understood each other, they were very hard working, and the children good students, the one exception in the group was one poor woman who's husband was more interested in drinking than working, after 3 years he took a "pay-off" from the local authorities to return to Kazakhstan while she and the two children stayed in Germany, and divorced the wino, after getting her gold dental work replaced by porcelain, she established a relationship with a new man, and I believe she is happily
re-married.

Connaught Ranger.

[Eye]

Just imagine. In XIXc. almost everybody could live and work in almost every part of the world including US without any special interferences from the state. So do we have more freedom today or did we have more freedom more than 100 years ago?

[MichaelF]

How can you deport an undocumented Irishman or Chinese by bus?

Easy. Send them back where they came from: Canada.