The West has gotten it wrong on China for decades

[acosta]

Understanding China
The West has gotten it wrong on China for decades -- even as it embraces a market economy, it has shunned Western-style freedoms. And its power is only growing.

By Martin Jacques

November 22, 2009

The dynamics of President Obama's trip to China were markedly different from those evident on visits made by President Clinton and President George W. Bush. This time the Chinese made clear that they were unwilling even to discuss issues such as human rights or free speech. Why? The relationship between the countries has changed: America feels weak and China strong in their bilateral ties. This is not a temporary shift that will reverse itself once the U.S. has escaped from its mountain of debt. Rather, it is the expression of a deep and progressive shift in the balance of power between the two nations, one that is giving the Chinese -- though studiously cautious in their approach -- a rising sense of self-confidence.

Nor should we be surprised by the Chinese response. They may have appeared more conciliatory on previous visits by American leaders, but that was largely decorative. The Chinese have a powerful sense of their identity and worth. They have never behaved toward the West in a supplicant manner, for reasons Westerners persistently fail to understand or grasp.

Ever since the Nixon-Mao rapprochement, and through the various iterations of the Sino-American relationship over the subsequent almost four decades, there has been an overriding belief in the West that eventually China would become like us: that, for example, a market economy would lead to democratization and that a free media was inevitable. This hubristic outlook is deeply flawed, but it still prevails, albeit with small cracks of self-doubt starting to appear.

The issue here is much deeper than Western-style democracy, a free media or human rights. China is simply not like the West and never will be. There has been an underlying assumption that the process of modernization would inevitably lead to Westernization; yet modernization is not just shaped by markets, competition and technology but by history and culture. And Chinese history and culture are very different from that of any Western nation-state.

If we want to understand China, this must be our starting point.

The West's failure to understand the Chinese has repeatedly undermined its ability to anticipate their behavior. Again and again, our predictions and beliefsabout China have proved wrong: that the Chinese Communist Party would fall after 1989, that the country would divide, that its economic growth could not be sustained, that its growth figures were greatly exaggerated, that China was not sincere about its offer of "one country two systems" at the time of the hand-over of Hong Kong from Britain -- and, of course, that it would steadily Westernize. We have a long track record of getting China wrong.

The fundamental reason for our inability to accurately predict China's future is our failure to understand its past. Although China has described itself as a nation-state for the last century, it is in essence a civilization-state. The longest continually existing polity in the world, it dates to 221 BC and the victory of the Qin. Unlike Western nation-states, China's sense of identity comes from its long history as a civilization-state.

Of course, there are many civilizations -- Western civilization is one example -- but China is the only civilization-state. It is defined by its extraordinarily long history and also its huge geographic and demographic scale and diversity. The implications are profound: Unity is its first priority, plurality the condition of its existence (which is why China could offer Hong Kong "one country two systems," a formula alien to a nation-state).

The Chinese state enjoys a very different kind of relationship with society compared with the Western state. It enjoys much greater natural authority, legitimacy and respect, even though not a single vote is cast for the government. The reason is that the state is seen by the Chinese as the guardian, custodian and embodiment of their civilization. The duty of the state is to protect its unity. The legitimacy of the state therefore lies deep in Chinese history. This is utterly different from how the state is seen in Western societies.

If we are to understand China, we must move beyond the compass of Western reality and experience and the body of concepts that has grown up to explain that history. We find this extremely difficult. For 200 years the West, first in the shape of Europe and then the United States, has dominated the world and has not been required to understand others or The Other. If need be it could always bully the latter into submission.

The emergence of China as a global power marks the end of that era. We now have to deal with The Other -- in the form of China -- on increasingly equal terms.

China, moreover, is possessed, like the West, with its own form of universalism. It long believed that it was "the land under heaven," the center of the world, superior to all other cultures. That sense of self, which has engendered a powerful self-confidence, has been persistently evident over the last 40 years, but with China's rise, it is becoming more apparent as the country's sense of achievement and restoration gains pace. Or to put it another way, when the presidents of China and the United States meet in Beijing in 2019, with the Chinese economy fast approaching the size of the American economy, we can be sure that the Chinese sense of hubris will be far stronger than in 2009.

But long before that, we need to try and understand what China is and how it behaves. If we don't, then relations between China and the United States will never move beyond the polite and the formal -- and that will be a bad omen for the future relationship between the two countries.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-jacques22-2009nov22,0,6682428.story

This article is from latimes, it says the chinese culture simple has a different approach of freedom and democracy, as to prosperity, and will it succeed?

[Eventine]

I don't buy the concept of cultural permanency. Communism wasn't part of Chinese civilization, either, and it's not like China is still a country of emperors and eunuchs. Things do change, but it is true that different cultures will respond to challenges differently. People aren't a blank slate on which you can paint any picture you desire. The very fact that the CCP is in power in China, instead of the KMT or some Islamic theocracy, is evidence of the underlying currents.

[BearInBunnySuit]

I don't buy the concept of cultural permanency. Communism wasn't part of Chinese civilization, either, and it's not like China is still a country of emperors and eunuchs. Things do change, but it is true that different cultures will respond to challenges differently. People aren't a blank slate on which you can paint any picture you desire. The very fact that the CCP is in power in China, instead of the KMT or some Islamic theocracy, is evidence of the underlying currents.

That's very interesting. Can you elaborate a bit more on the last sentence?

[Zarak]

Evil fascist China is going to take over the world. OH NOES.

[ggk]

Evil fascist China is going to take over the world. OH NOES.

oh noes you dont its us islam who are going to take the world.


China, moreover, is possessed, like the West, with its own form of universalism. It long believed that it was "the land under heaven," the center of the world, superior to all other cultures. That sense of self, which has engendered a powerful self-confidence, has been persistently evident over the last 40 years, but with China's rise, it is becoming more apparent as the country's sense of achievement and restoration gains pace. Or to put it another way, when the presidents of China and the United States meet in Beijing in 2019, with the Chinese economy fast approaching the size of the American economy, we can be sure that the Chinese sense of hubris will be far stronger than in 2009.

i wonder if this is still true.

[Robert.V]

I somehow doubt that.

[Muzungu]

MR. WEST are you listening?

you got it all wong on china!!

[Ritual]

Judging by some of our members postings yeah, they still think they're the middle kingdom.

Re got it arr wlong?

[Muzungu]

Judging by some of our members postings yeah, they still think they're the middle kingdom.

Re got it arr wlong?

Middle Kingdom?

whats that?

[Ritual]

It's where hobbits come from.

[gustav]

They just ask us to reconsider our opinion on Laogai camps, political prisoners and the repression of dissents. Its a different culture, we cannot understand them. Fvck the Chicoms.

[d'artagnan]

It's where hobbits come from.

On one hand, there are ppl always claim that those who are against China are not again the country per se, but against the govt.

And on the other hand, there are ppl who openly sinophobic and trying to undermine us no matter what.

You see, how can we be fooled by you ppl?

The more I know about those hypocrites in the west and other parts of the world, the more I think those so called 'value-based' diplomacy is nothing but bs.

[d'artagnan]

They just ask us to reconsider our opinion on Laogai camps, political prisoners and the repression of dissents. Its a different culture, we cannot understand them. Fvck the Chicoms.

Just like we can't understand ppl who are cheese eating surrendering monkeys. Fvck those monkeys

[Ritual]

You're rambling.

How'd you miss the Tolken reference in that one I'll never know.

He's onto us guys, and our world wide scheme to disenfranchise the Chinese people and put the Lama on the throne. :roll:

[d'artagnan]

You're rambling.

How'd you miss the Tolken reference in that one I'll never know.

He's onto us guys, and our world wide scheme to disenfranchise the Chinese people and put the Lama on the throne. :roll:

Oh, u mean, referring that Chinese have the same height as hobbits? lol, tell me your nationality and let me pour some racial slur against u folks eh? Is that fair?

[Ritual]

I'm half latino and white, and you are so off base about what I meant by that it's sad.

Any particular reason you're trying to turn this racial? Get back on topic sport.

[d'artagnan]

I'm half latino and white, and you are so off base about what I meant by that it's sad.

Any particular reason you're trying to turn this racial? Get back on topic sport.

Calling us hobbits and now i'm bad coz it's racial. Geez, ill spare that racial slur thing, coz just for latino part, i can write a book.

[Ritual]

Exactly since I didn't mean it in that way, that actually does make you the bad guy.

Btw you're raging across 3 threads tonight, kinda lulzy.

[d'artagnan]

Exactly since I didn't mean it in that way, that actually does make you the bad guy.

Btw you're raging across 3 threads tonight, kinda lulzy.

Don't get me wrong, i didnt to turn it that way either.. geez~~ Sigh, i can say it like u as well.

[hulaku]

Exactly since I didn't mean it in that way, that actually does make you the bad guy.

Btw you're raging across 3 threads tonight, kinda lulzy.

He is actually the Racist Chinese Drama Queen on MPnet.p-)

Let him/ her rage on:)

[Ritual]

By the way, nice eye brows.

They see me trollin...

[Rayber]

d'artagnan : Who says he called the chinese hobbits ? you have obviously not seen the LOTR trilogy ;)

[Muzungu]

pardon my ignorance...

what are hobbits? i dont understand much of american slang language!

[Ritual]

lol A race of humanoids from a fantasy world called "Middle Earth", friendly and short, like smoking and drinking. If you're serious I'd suggest reading the books they're actually very good.

[d'artagnan]

d'artagnan : Who says he called the chinese hobbits ? you have obviously not seen the LOTR trilogy ;)

Lol, i don't know abt that novel made into a three part film in NZ? Of coz i know. And thus I know what's he's talking abt.

[Muzungu]

lol A race of humanoids from a fantasy world called "Middle Earth", friendly and short, like smoking and drinking. If you're serious I'd suggest reading the books they're actually very good.

thanks.

so why this guy is pissed off being called Hobbits, if hobbits are such nice and friendly guys!

hey they even smoke and drink!

[Ritual]

Seriously though, have you ever considered waxing or plucking your eye brows?

I hear the ladies like it.

[hulaku]

Seriously though, have you ever considered waxing or plucking your eye brows?

I hear the ladies like it.

Yep that is a good suggestion.

I think a goatie would also add to his boyish charm.

[Ritual]

It'd be lovely!

[Hongjian]

Fvck Yeah!

The first time an western author got it right.

It has been so easy. Just like adding two and two, but somehow westerners rather observed us through their indoctrinated soviet-russian glasses than through cultural glasses... and failed hard.

This article gave me new hope for our beloved Qualitätsjournalismus.

Thanks OP.

Edit:


If we are to understand China, we must move beyond the compass of Western reality and experience and the body of concepts that has grown up to explain that history. We find this extremely difficult. For 200 years the West, first in the shape of Europe and then the United States, has dominated the world and has not been required to understand others or The Other. If need be it could always bully the latter into submission.So much truth.

"Our values are the universal truth, because we will free the sh*t out of you, if you dont want to accept it".

It's all like the Holy Crusades are over the place again.

Didnt evolved much further, the West has. Just replaced God and Jesus with Democracy and Human Rights, but the means of 'converting the misguided sheeps to the one and only path to salvation' remains the same.

Like in the Commandments

'I am the Lord your God and you shall have no other gods before me.'

'I am Democracy your Universal Truth and you shall have no other truths before me'

[Flamming_Python]

Culture, history... I don't know why people resort to such BS when trying to 'explain' China.

Chinese are just the same human beings as anyone else; they don't behave as a collective but due to their shear numbers it can perceived that way by outsiders.

They have the same demands, lifestyles, etc... as anyone in the West or any other part of the world. And yes, democracy is developing in China; people there are demanding more and more that their officials and beurocrats are more answerable to the people, they have less tolerance for corruption, practically every week their is some protest or worker's action in China, frequently leading to trouble with the authorities.

The fact that the Chinese government does not have a free media and can be heavy-handed in dealing with its own population doesn't have an explanation in culture; many European governments were like this not so long ago, many other governments around the world still are. However, even on this front there is progress; the Chinese elite and decision makers, have come to the conclusion much like the Europeans did not so long before them; that they must appease their people more and create more efficient mechanisms by which to answer their concerns. In the West such a system is included under the all-encompasing title of 'democracy', in China perhaps it will have a different name but the function is much the same - listen to your people more, and thus prevent them rising against you.

[kinney_bmx]

It's where hobbits come from.
no its not, that middle earth tard p-)
also known as New Zealand

[TheMiddlePath]

Like in the Commandments

'I am the Lord your God and you shall have no other gods before me.'

'I am Democracy your Universal Truth and you shall have no other truths before me'

You could not have put it better. Really explains a lot.

[little icebear]

Q: Do I give a flying fvck whether the Chinese people are happy with being ruled by a bunch of folks who´ll do anything with or to their subjects?

A: Not really.

The only thing that bugs me is global disenfranchised capitalism and the fact that we seem to be dependant (we are not, we just choose to be) on cheap workers.

We could built the components for our cellphones and laptops all alone - like we did for decades... but no... these greedy bastards around here demand propper wages, high enough to feed a family... so capitalism (our true ruler: shareholder value) decides that fair payment is out of question and that it is better to have a chinese guy do it instead...

[TheMiddlePath]

Culture, history... I don't know why people resort to such BS when trying to 'explain' China.

Chinese are just the same human beings as anyone else; they don't behave as a collective but due to their shear numbers it can perceived that way by outsiders..

But we are bought up and taught from young. That is the different.
One good example is that when China invited all the world leaders to Beijing for the Olympic.

Basically, when you are invited to a party, you make a decision to come or not to come. If you DO come, you are the guest. You DO NOT tell the host you will come only if the host do this or do that just like Sarkozy. Or come and then lecture your host how to run their own country.

It is as simple as that.


They have the same demands, lifestyles, etc... as anyone in the West or any other part of the world. And yes, democracy is developing in China; people there are demanding more and more that their officials and beurocrats are more answerable to the people, they have less tolerance for corruption, practically every week their is some protest or worker's action in China, frequently leading to trouble with the authorities..

Yes people in China ARE demanding more and more. There are thousands of thousands of protests every year in China. But almost every one of the protest is about corruption. Not about having multiparty election.

And may I add that Chinese are very well aware and knowledgeable about elections. Every single election worldwide are reported in the news in detail. US elections, the live debates, the campagning style etc etc. And also Chinese participate in election up to the township level. That means a total of 60% of Chinese elect their own leaders. And have been doing that for years.


The fact that the Chinese government does not have a free media and can be heavy-handed in dealing with its own population doesn't have an explanation in culture; many European governments were like this not so long ago, many other governments around the world still are. However, even on this front there is progress; the Chinese elite and decision makers, have come to the conclusion much like the Europeans did not so long before them; that they must appease their people more and create more efficient mechanisms by which to answer their concerns. In the West such a system is included under the all-encompasing title of 'democracy', in China perhaps it will have a different name but the function is much the same - listen to your people more, and thus prevent them rising against you.

Yes but being a leader means also you have the responsibility to put food on the table for your sons and daughters. Just as the father provides for the family, the leaders must improve the living standards of its people. Being the leader does not mean you can do what you like.

Having a good relationship with China is about as easy as ABC. If not you can hire me.

[Nano]

I don't think the West has gotten China wrong at all. The article assumes because it is the neo-liberal accepted idea that economic prosperity = personal freedom that the west has gotten it wrong is flawed. It may be in our political leaders interests and even our own that whether they are republican or democrat both will regurgitate the same false mantra when it pertains to China. The article would have been accurate if if it had it simply replaced "West" with "Western academically accepted concept" had gotten it wrong.

[ALBA660]

Asaians are crazy. Duh.

[Ought Six]

A:
"Asaians are crazy. Duh."You just painted a 'MORON' sign on your own back.

[ShanghaiExpress]

What a load of crap.

Taiwan and South Korea were all part of the Chinese cultural tradition and yet their people demanded the transition from dictatorship to democracy, but the Chinese people on the mainland are fundamentally different?

When Taiwanese and South Koreans pushed for democracy their per capita GDP was 2-3 times that of China's today. It would take 15 years for China to reach that level of prosperity.

How many in the West were complaining about the dictatorship in Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong in the 1970s? None. No body cared. The British didn't even think of giving Hong Kong democracy until the 1990s, just a few years before the handover.

The only reason Westerners whine about China is because China is powerful and they are afraid - not because Chinese are really different.

[Ordie]

When Taiwanese and South Koreans pushed for democracy their per capita GDP was 2-3 times that of China's today. It would take 15 years for China to reach that level of prosperity.

When you have a rising middle class, there are greater demands on government for greater transparency, accountability, public participation, rule of law and legitimacy.


How many in the West were complaining about the dictatorship in Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong in the 1970s? None.

The Cold War and the Truman Doctrine of Containment was the paradigm of US Foreign policy. As long as a nation was not deemed "Communist" or a "Soviet Client State" it did not matter who our allies were. That began to change in 1968 first with Vietnam when US public opinion began to question the relationship we had with our allies. Especially in Latin America in the 1970's.


The British didn't even think of giving Hong Kong democracy until the 1990s, just a few years before the handover.

But the Brits did leave behind a transparent Administrative Service supported by the "Rule of Law" which encourages confidence with the private and public sectors.


The only reason Westerners whine about China is because China is powerful and they are afraid - not because Chinese are really different

I've been to China. China on spreadsheets, paper, glass and steel facade and a staged parade every auspicious anniversary may look powerful, but its not......

China is only as strong as its weakest link. One only needs to travel to Northern Shanxi or the countryside to see and understand how the other half lives.

China is more fragile and complex than ever before. If the government did not artificially manipulate the exchange rates and Shanghai stock markets to maintain 10% positive growth every year, the Communists will be out of a job.

[ShanghaiExpress]

When you have a rising middle class, there are greater demands on government for greater transparency, accountability, public participation, rule of law and legitimacy.

Exactly. China is not there yet, so why the assertion that China is so different that it will not face such pressures when its per capita GDP reach that point?


The Cold War and the Truman Doctrine of Containment was the paradigm of US Foreign policy. As long as a nation was not deemed "Communist" or a "Soviet Client State" it did not matter who our allies were. That began to change in 1968 first with Vietnam when US public opinion began to question the relationship we had with our allies. Especially in Latin America in the 1970's.

A practical thing to do. Dictatorships ended up becoming democracies none the less. So what's this worry that China wont follow the same route? Many of those dictatorships favored by Washington were far more repressive than the PRC government today.


But the Brits did leave behind a transparent Administrative Service supported by the "Rule of Law" which encourages confidence with the private and public sectors.

Is a dictatorship acceptable when it has "Rule of Law"? I would personally prefer a democracy with rule of law than a dictatorship with rule of law. Everyone in the West however thought Hong Kong under undemocratic British rule was perfectly fine.

This is hypocrisy and a major factor in the loss of credibility for pro-democracy advocates. The West must support democracy out of principle not out of some vain hope of undermining a competitor. Confusing these two issues has damaged the brand.



I've been to China. China on spreadsheets, paper, glass and steel facade and a staged parade every auspicious anniversary may look powerful, but its not......

China is only as strong as its weakest link. One only needs to travel to Northern Shanxi or the countryside to see and understand how the other half lives.

China is more fragile and complex than ever before. If the government did not artificially manipulate the exchange rates and Shanghai stock markets to maintain 10% positive growth every year, the Communists will be out of a job.

China has serious weaknesses, which is why the government has no interest in help running the world . It is however perceived to be a threat to the West. This is the real reason there's so much whining about China being an inscrutable alien culture incompatible with Western culture. When China were perceived as weak, strangely every body thought China will soon become the next Christian kingdom.

The original article I'm responding to is a reflection of Western anxiety and new found insecurity than the real China.

[Ordie]

China has serious weaknesses, which is why the government has no interest in help running the world . It is however perceived to be a threat to the West. This is the real reason there's so much whining about China being an inscrutable alien culture incompatible with Western culture. When China were perceived as weak, strangely every body thought China will soon become the next Christian kingdom.


China's government is not transparent.

The lack of transparency only feeds misunderstandings and mistrusts with Americans.

Americans values its Constitutional freedoms and are committed to defend their rights at whatever costs. What scares Americans is the fact that much of our debt and economy is held in the hands of an autocratic single party dictatorship who don't share our values and norms.

For the Chinese they may see this as a pragmatic business decision. From an average American point of view they see it as ominous and sinister.

Moreover, positive public opinion of China among Americans has never recovered since the Summer of 1989.

[HellToupee]

China is only as strong as its weakest link. One only needs to travel to Northern Shanxi or the countryside to see and understand how the other half lives.

China is more fragile and complex than ever before. If the government did not artificially manipulate the exchange rates and Shanghai stock markets to maintain 10% positive growth every year, the Communists will be out of a job.

If that were true all countries on earth would be on the verge of collapse, i walk past homeless on the streets everyday here.

China more fragile than ever before? They have no been stronger, they have been through much worse than dips in economic activity.

[Ordie]

China more fragile than ever before? They have no been stronger, they have been through much worse than dips in economic activity.

I don't know about that.

From what I saw in China, the people were insecure and the police are paraniod and scared.

[PeoplesPoster]

I don't know about that.

From what I saw in China, the people were insecure and the police are paraniod and scared.

Your anecdotal evidence trumps his anecdotal evidence! I hardly think your qualified to make these broad generalizations as if they were facts based on afew shorts visits to China as an outsider.

[Ordie]

Your anecdotal evidence trumps his anecdotal evidence! I hardly think your qualified to make these broad generalizations as if they were facts based on afew shorts visits to China as an outsider.

I was privilaged to see different parts of China over a span of 20 years roughly 2-4 weeks at a time.

Needless to say alot has changed in the major cities.
But sadly, not much has changed in the rural areas.

In 1995, the general atmosphere within Beijing was much more relaxed than it was on my last visit in April. I found Beijingers very tense, anxious, and the cops more paranoid.

[acosta]

I was privilaged to see different parts of China over a span of 20 years roughly 2-4 weeks at a time.

Needless to say alot has changed in the major cities.
But sadly, not much has changed in the rural areas.

In 1995, the general atmosphere within Beijing was much more relaxed than it was on my last visit in April. I found Beijingers very tense, anxious, and the cops more paranoid.

I would say you need a deep dive in china's rural area. I had a trip with my cousin to middle-west china, the traditional agri area. and it looks these part of china has experienced the second dramatic change in 3000 years.

The first one happened not long ago in the beginning of great leap right after the founding of PRC, farmers started using machinery.

And now they are starting using modern tech transforming their farmland into part of the chinese economy. They sell their crops through online store. CCP has been sending young agri engineers(young graduates cannot get a job in big cities, and CCP encourage them to rural area, recruit them as government officials) to improve planting technologies.

Chinese agriculture industry is a great success, they are now even exporting their techs and models oversees. you just can't deny that. we have another thread about how chinese copy their farming business in africa, right?

As to how Beijingers feel about their life, go ask an average people at any street corner in this big city or any chinese near you. i guess we all know what they will say. 1995-2009 in china, that's a great leap in many senses you hardly see in human history.

[TheMiddlePath]

But the Brits did leave behind a transparent Administrative Service supported by the "Rule of Law" which encourages confidence with the private and public sectors.




For Ordie, it is perfectly OK if an illegimate dictator is not Chinese.

Your true colors really shines here, Ordie.

And I hope your Thanks Giving Turkey burned in the oven.

[Ordie]

And I hope your Thanks Giving Turkey burned in the oven.

Nope

I went out for Shanghainese food as it was the only restaurant open.

I ordered my favorite Xiao Long Bao

Yummmmmmmmmm

http://x24.xanga.com/55ef220217631257100914/b204564821.jpg