Israel Cabinet approves 10-month West Bank settlement freeze

[BlackWarder]

Ynet (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3810790,00.html)



Cabinet approves 10-month West Bank settlement freeze

Eleven ministers vote in favor of Netanyahu's proposal to halt construction in West Bank for 10-month period in bid to jumpstart peace talks. Eleven ministers vote in favor of initiative; two Shas ministers absent. PM says, 'I hope Arab world will seize this opportunity to promote peace.' Palestinian reject move because freeze does not include construction in east Jerusalem

Roni Sofer
Latest Update: 11.25.09, 22:08 / Israel News

The security cabinet approved Wednesday evening Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's proposal to halt construction in the West Bank settlements for a period of 10 months.


Eleven ministers voted in favor of the plan, while Infrastructure Minister Uzi Landau opposed the initiative, which was coordinated with the US in an effort to jumpstart the Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations.

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Interior Minister Eli Yishai (Shas) and Housing and Construction Minister Ariel Atias were absent from the vote.



Shortly after the vote Netanyahu told a televised press conference at his Jerusalem office that the step was designed to "encourage resumption of peace talks with our Palestinian neighbors."



"It's not an easy step and we are taking it out of broad national considerations," he said, adding, "I hope that the Palestinians and the Arab world will be wise enough to take this opportunity to move forward in the path of peace," he said.



Netanyahu stressed that the settlement freeze would not be implemented in east Jerusalem.



"We do not put any restrictions on building in our sovereign capital," the prime minister said.



"Now is the time to begin negotiations, now is the time to move forward towards peace. Israel today has taken a far-reaching step toward peace; it is time for the Palestinians to do the same," he added.



"Israel's government has made an important step toward peace today, let us make peace together."





Netanyahu further told reporters, "As soon as the suspension period concludes, my government will resume the West Bank construction policy of previous governments."



"I have promised to allow our 300,000 brothers residing in the West Bank to continue to lead normal lives, and therefore construction that is already underway will not ne halted. We will continue to build synagogues, schools and kindergartens," he said.




Construction in Ma'aleh Adumim Wednesday (Photo: AFP)



Among those who backed the initiative were hardliners Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Ministers Moshe Yaalon and Benny Begin.



Industry, Trade and Labor Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer (Labor) said after the vote, "It’s an important and historic decision, one of the most important decisions this government has made. The decision will leave the Palestinians with only one choice – join the political negotiations. They have no reason to stall anymore."



Earlier, a US official said the United States hopes Netanyahu's proposal can help revive Middle East talks,



"We're hoping this will in some way contribute to the resumption of negotiations" between the Israelis and Palestinians, the official told AFP on condition of anonymity.



Israel has been under heavy international pressure to halt its construction in settlements built on captured lands claimed by the Palestinians. Some 300,000 Israelis live in the West Bank, in addition to about 180,000 people living in Jewish neighborhoods in east Jerusalem.

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Netanyahu earlier floated the idea of suspending construction in existing settlements. Wednesday's offer was the first time he has given a firm timeline for how long he is willing to stop the building.



Palestinians already rejected the move before the announcement because the freeze does not include construction in Jewish neighborhoods in east Jerusalem, which the Palestinians want as the capital of their future state. Israel captured east Jerusalem from Jordan in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war and annexed it soon after.



Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has demanded a total halt to settlement construction before peace talks can resume. On Wednesday, chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said there was nothing new in Netanyahu's announcement, pointing to the 3,000 new housing units under construction in the West Bank.



"This is not a moratorium. Unfortunately, we hoped he would commit to a real settlement freeze so we can resume negotiations and he had a choice between settlements and peace and he chose settlements."



Palestinian presidential adviser Nabil Abu Rdeneh said the proposed freeze would be unacceptable if it didn't include east Jerusalem.



"Any Israeli offer that doesn't include Jerusalem will be rejected immediately," he said in a phone interview from Argentina, where he was traveling with President Abbas. "No Palestinian, no Arab can cross this line."



Netanyahu, a traditional ally of the settler movement, has argued that some construction should be permitted to allow for "natural growth" in their communities. His latest offer applies only to "new construction permits", meaning that some 3,000 homes already approved for construction would not be affected.



AFP, AP and ******* contributed to the reportWarder

[GiladS]

Wonder what excuses Abbas will come up with now... :roll:

Ah wait... here it is:


Palestinian reject move because freeze does not include construction in east Jerusalem

[gaijinsamurai]

Good gesture on Israel's part.

[bbsh]

Good gesture on Israel's part.

X2

Im not aware of any such building freeze approved by any other governments.. Am i wrong?

[GiladS]

X2

Im not aware of any such building freeze approved by any other governments.. Am i wrong?

No, this is a first.

[GB_FXST]

Wonder what excuses Abbas will come up with now... :roll:

Ah wait... here it is:

Nonetheless, the ball is in his court.

[OrangeWolf]

So has the Arab leadership made any promises in return?

[Octavariable]

Abbas wants construction freeze in east Jerusalem for who? Jewish and Arab residents? or Jewish ones only...
Now, how can he explain that without sounding racist? :bash:

[Octavariable]

So has the Arab leadership made any promises in return?

Yes, the promise to keep up with disapproving and not agreeing on anything.

[the_Wicked]

Holy ****, I didn't believe this would happen. Oh well, now we wait for the Palestinian excuse for NOT making peace with us, and to their next demands.

EDIT: Wow, Abbas is fast!

[Player]

It seems that the PA leadership are bullheaded as fvck not to use any opportunity they're given to get something done on the ground to become more independent from their occupier. Obviously they aren't interested in peace or their own state. So I say fvck 'em. Overthrow the PA leaders and place Mossad agents for the better of both Israelis and Palestinians.

[Rayber]

Nice move by Israel, now Abbas needs to see the gesture and drag his head out of his ass , he can make more claims later on but first he should appreciate what israel has just done .

[GiladS]

Nice move by Israel, now Abbas needs to see the gesture and drag his head out of his ass , he can make more claims later on but first he should appreciate what israel has just done .

I marked where the problem is.

Just like with the 2005 Gaza pullout nothing will come out of this except for more distrust between Israelis and the government and Arabs precieving this as a weakness.

Perhaps Obama will now learn with whom he's dealing with. Seems like everytime a new U.S president comes along then he has to learn this the hard way, this means the hard way for us Israelis.

Also lets say Abbas does agree to restarting peace talks, how will this help with the situation in the Gaza Strip where he has no relevance?

[LRPV]

Nice move by Israel, now Abbas needs to see the gesture and drag his head out of his ass , he can make more claims later on but first he should appreciate what israel has just done .

Abbas is a fading star. Within the PA there are none competent to replace him, why hasn't there been a coup against him?p-)

Watch this space....my crystal ball sees a HAMAS or HAMAS influenced coalition/party in place of the current PA. I'll bet Abu Mazens balls on it.

[the_Wicked]

it seems that the pa leadership are bullheaded as fvck not to use any opportunity they're given to get something done on the ground to become more independent from their occupier. Obviously they aren't interested in peace or their own state. So i say fvck 'em. Overthrow the pa leaders and place mossad agents for the better of both israelis and palestinians.

x2

.................

[ting]

Half-Truths Dim Chances for Mideast Talks
By ETHAN BRONNER
Published: November 26, 2009

JERUSALEM — In recent years, the international community has made one central demand of Israel and one of the Palestinians to create conditions for a two-state solution: Israel must stop building settlements on land the Palestinians want for their state and the Palestinians must dismantle terror networks and end violent attacks on Israelis.

This week, a casual observer could have concluded that each had carried out its duty and peace talks would move forward. Israel announced a 10-month settlement freeze on Wednesday; as to the Palestinians, violent attacks against Israelis are essentially over. As Palestinian officials like to point out, trained Palestinian security forces have been keeping order in West Bank cities for more than a year.

But the casual observer would probably be mistaken. There will likely be no peace talks soon. In fact, tensions seem set to rise partly because the claims of each side amount to half-truths, as the other is the first to note.

The 10-month settlement freeze excludes 3,000 units being built or recently authorized. The moratorium leaves out schools, synagogues and community centers, just the kind of “natural growth” banned by the dormant 2003 “road map” for peace, agreed to by the United States, the European Union, the United Nations and Russia. In other words, although this represents a painful political concession from the Israeli government and is causing it internal trouble, there will never be a moment in the coming months when construction will stop in West Bank settlements.

And Israeli building in East Jerusalem, which the Palestinians want as their capital, will be unaffected.

As for the Palestinians’ claim to have successfully ended violence, the Israeli military begs to differ. Yes, its officers say, the Palestinian forces are better trained than in the past, and yes, they have worked seriously in their new roles. But without nightly Israeli raids into Palestinian cities, the violence would never have stopped.

“Last night we carried out between 15 and 20 actions,” noted a top Israeli commander, speaking of the West Bank raids, in a recent interview under military rules of anonymity. “That was a fairly typical night. It’s like throwing a blanket on a fire. If we stop for a minute, we will go backwards very quickly. We call it cutting the grass.”

And, Israeli officials note, even if the Palestinian Authority were to receive full credit for the sharp reduction in West Bank-based violence, there is still Gaza. It is ruled by the Islamists of Hamas who remain dedicated to Israel’s destruction. Since Palestinian Authority officials dare not even set foot there, it is hard to credit their claim to have dismantled terror networks.

But each side in this dispute has stopped listening to the complaints and accusations of the other. Many Israelis now firmly believe that the Palestinians are not serious about two states; the Palestinians feel the same way about the Israelis. As a result, each is now appealing to a foreign audience in hopes of bringing pressure on the other.

Israeli officials made clear that the settlement halt was done with their eyes mostly on one audience — the Obama administration, with which relations have been rocky. The construction pause, Israel’s ambassador to Washington, Michael B. Oren, said afterward, was “a gesture, first of all, to the president of the United States. I can’t stress that enough.”

The Americans made approving noises about the halt but seemed to suggest that more needed to be done to restart peace talks.

Palestinian leaders have spent much of their energy appealing to foreign powers about Israel’s actions. There was talk of a resolution in the United Nations Security Council declaring a Palestinian state until several Western leaders made clear that this was unlikely to succeed. The idea has not died. The Palestinian prime minister, Salam Fayyad, prefers to focus instead on institution building toward a state. But few seem to be listening to him.

The Israeli settlement pause is part of a complex picture. Israel is currently negotiating indirectly with Hamas for release of a seized soldier and is also trying to improve its international image after harsh criticism of its conduct in Gaza last January.

To arrange the return of the soldier, Staff Sgt. Gilad Shalit, Israel is preparing to release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. The keen fear among Israeli and American intelligence officials is that both the prisoner exchange and the critique of Israel’s Gaza conduct will increase the power of Hamas, thereby reducing the standing of the Palestinian Authority run by President Mahmoud Abbas and decreasing the chances for peace talks.

So gestures to benefit Mr. Abbas are being urged on the Israeli government by its own security agencies and the Americans. That made the settlement pause, rejected in the spring, acceptable even to some on the Israeli right. There are also more efforts under way to improve life in the West Bank. American suggestions have included handing over more land to Palestinian control and increasing the responsibility of Palestinian forces.

But Israel has so far resisted such suggestions. The Israeli commander said that if Israel were to hand over more responsibility to the Palestinians, it would lose the extensive intelligence network it has so painstakingly built up in the West Bank in recent years.

As another top commander put it, “If we want to prevent rockets from being shot from the West Bank, keeping our troops on the ground is probably necessary.”

But a national outpouring for Sergeant Shalit has meant that a deal is brewing that could free perhaps 1,000 Palestinian fighters, some of them planners of suicide bombings. In the Israeli military’s words, that will be a lot of new grass to cut. So there is a growing call in Israel to make this the last such lopsided deal for a captured soldier.

As Ari Shavit, a columnist, commented in Haaretz newspaper on Thursday, the Shalit deal “erodes Israel’s deterrence” and “will weaken Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, flood the territories with skilled terrorists and lead to chaos.”

Others on both sides of the political spectrum are voicing similar concerns, suggesting that if the deal goes through, Israel will be very wary of seeming weak. Settlers and their supporters are already vowing a fight over the construction halt and the freed fighters. At the same time, the Palestinian Authority is seeking to associate itself with the prisoners expected to be released. In other words, if this exchange occurs, the likelihood of either side appearing conciliatory or peace talks restarting soon seems low.

I underlined what the "freeze" means. It's more of a slow down than a freeze. It is however a move in the right direction. The problem is that Abbas is so weak that nothing less then a total freeze in WB and Jerusalem can bring him to the negotiating table.

[GiladS]

The problem is that Abbas is so weak that nothing less then a total freeze in WB and Jerusalem can bring him to the negotiating table.

Abbas is so weak that it seems that he isn't relevant anymore when talking about peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Abbas can't even negotiate in the name of all Palestinians as the Gaza Strip is governed by Hamas and the West Bank is still under the Fatah flag thanks to IDF activity.

[GiladS]

Abbas is a fading star. Within the PA there are none competent to replace him, why hasn't there been a coup against him?p-)

Watch this space....my crystal ball sees a HAMAS or HAMAS influenced coalition/party in place of the current PA. I'll bet Abu Mazens balls on it.

Once Israel and Hamas close a deal on Gilad Schalit one can only expect further growth of Hamas's power in the West Bank

[bbsh]

Once Israel and Hamas close a deal on Gilad Schalit one can only expect further growth of Hamas's power in the West Bank

I agree fully

Which is why hamas is so motivated as of late to actually have the prisonner swap take place..

Couple this with Abbas making statements that he will not run and also not (originally) endorsing the goldstone report.. Palestinians themselves view his movement as corrupt/inept as it has ever been.. Hamas pretty much has the opportunity to play its cards right with the present scenario, clinging to statements such as resistance is the only path while simultaneously releasing opposition terrorists like barghouti to cater to all.

Speaking from a logical point of view, hamas isnt really any better.. While they might give off a 'grass roots' no-corruption appeal (to those gullible enough anyway), their policies have directly caused the death of hundreds of Palestinian civilians.. Still, this is a moot point because we cant always expect the palestinians to act rational.

[GiladS]

Construction permits for West Bank settlement banned

Civil Administration officers began distributing orders to West Bank council heads on Friday, ordering them to cease issuing construction permits in the settlements.

The orders came two days after Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu announced a ten-month moratorium on housing starts in the settlements.

Also Friday, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that his m
inistry had taken photographs of settlement from an aircraft, in order to document construction.

Earlier Friday, Gush Etzion Regional Council head Shaul Goldstein blasted the decision to freeze settlement construction, saying that such moves would "only lead to further pressure being put on Israel."

"The settlers will fight the freeze decision by any means at their disposal," said Goldstein.
Also reacting to the settlement freeze, Deputy Coalition chairman Danny Danon (Likud) is convening a rally on Saturday night.

In a statement Friday, MK Danon said he would be joined at the rally by other Likud MKs, heads of Judea and Samaria community councils, Likud party branch heads from around the country, and central Likud party activists.

At the rally Danon will launch a new campaign: "Real Likud Supporters Don't Fold."

On Thursday, Barak suspended all permits for building projects in the settlements where contractors have not yet broken ground. The order, valid for 10 months, is intended to enforce the Security Cabinet's decision to restrict settler-home building in this period to the 3,000 housing units that are already under construction.

In an apparent "sweetener" to the settlement community, however, Barak also announced the approval of plans to build 28 public buildings, most of them educational facilities needed for the coming school year. Netanyahu had indicated in announcing the moratorium Wednesday that construction of public buildings, as well as construction in east Jerusalem, would continue.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259243022872&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[GiladS]

'It's not enough'

With the patience of a taxi driver at a red light about to turn green, the Palestinian leadership responded to Wednesday's announcement of an Israeli moratorium on new settlement building with: "It's not enough!"


Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's unprecedented moratorium is both substantive and symbolic - the appropriate response to a Palestinian settlement freeze demand that is both emblematic and a red-herring.

THE DISPUTE between Palestinians and Israelis is not about settlements. It hinges on whether the Arabs are willing to recognize the legitimacy of Israel as the state of the Jewish people within any boundaries. Some find it convenient to imagine that the clash between the Zionist and Arab causes has transitioned to a non-zero sum game. That is hardly the dominant view in Israel.

In 1920, the international community gave Britain the responsibility of establishing a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine. But a year later London turned over eastern Palestine to Emir Abdullah and Transjordan was born. The Arab response? "It's not enough."

In 1937, the Peel Commission recommended dividing Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. The Zionists consented. The Arabs... said no.
In 1947, the UN General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. Again, the Jews agreed. The Arab response was: "It's not enough" and they tried to throttle the newborn Jewish state. Israel survived while the Arabs took the West Bank and Gaza. Did they then form a Palestinian state? Of course not, because these territories alone were "not enough."


In 1967, the Arabs failed to push an Israel living within the 1949 Armistice Lines into the sea and the West Bank came into Israeli possession. Magnanimous in victory, Israel offered peace. The Arab response? "No peace, no recognition, no negotiations."

In 1977, Egypt's Anwar Sadat courageously embarked on the path of peace. Israel withdrew from all territory claimed by Egypt, and Menachem Begin, moreover, offered the Palestinians something they had never enjoyed - autonomy. Israeli forces would have been re-deployed as a prelude to final status negotiations. The Arab response? "It's not enough."

As a result of the 1993 Oslo Accords, the PLO leadership was invited to return from Tunis and set up a Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Gaza. But a double-dealing Yasser Arafat never genuinely embraced this historic opportunity for reconciliation. Hamas intensified its terror campaign which claimed dozens of Israeli lives (well before the Baruch Goldstein Hebron massacre in February 1994). Ehud Barak twice - at Camp David (July 2000) and at Taba (January 2001) - offered Arafat a Palestinian state accompanied by extraordinary territorial and political concessions. The Arab response? "It's not enough."

When Israel unilaterally pulled its settlers and soldiers out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, the Arabs again said: "It's not enough."

In 2008, Ehud Olmert offered Mahmoud Abbas 93 percent of the West Bank, plus additional territory from Israel proper. Abbas did not even deign to say "It's not enough" - he just walked away.

Then in June of this year Netanyahu, following in the footsteps of his predecessors, unequivocally accepted a demilitarized Palestinian state. The Arab response? "It's not enough."

Generation after generation, decade after decade, Israeli concession after concession, the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to say, "It's not enough."

SO now the question is what will America do? Special Envoy George Mitchell reacted with sparing approval to Netanyahu's moratorium. "It falls short of a full settlement freeze, but it is more than any Israeli government has done before…" He then diluted this faint praise by coldly reiterating: "America does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements."

A slightly more positive reaction came from Secretary of State Clinton who acknowledged that "agreed swaps" should be part of negotiations based on the 1967 lines.

To take additional risks for peace, Israelis must feel secure that the Obama administration wholly backs the 1967-plus formula. Washington needs to cajole Mahmoud Abbas back to the table to bargain in good faith, and it should extract diplomatic gestures from its Arab allies in reciprocity for the premier's concessions.
Otherwise, the discouraging message that comes across to Israelis who want an agreement is that no matter what we do it will always "fall short" with this administration and never be "enough" for the Arabs.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259243014871&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[GB_FXST]

It will never be enough.

At any rate, good move by Netanyahu to draw out another round of Palestinian rejectionism.

[ting]

Construction permits for West Bank settlement banned

Civil Administration officers began distributing orders to West Bank council heads on Friday, ordering them to cease issuing construction permits in the settlements.

The orders came two days after Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu announced a ten-month moratorium on housing starts in the settlements.

Also Friday, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that his m
inistry had taken photographs of settlement from an aircraft, in order to document construction.

Earlier Friday, Gush Etzion Regional Council head Shaul Goldstein blasted the decision to freeze settlement construction, saying that such moves would "only lead to further pressure being put on Israel."

"The settlers will fight the freeze decision by any means at their disposal," said Goldstein.
Also reacting to the settlement freeze, Deputy Coalition chairman Danny Danon (Likud) is convening a rally on Saturday night.

In a statement Friday, MK Danon said he would be joined at the rally by other Likud MKs, heads of Judea and Samaria community councils, Likud party branch heads from around the country, and central Likud party activists.

At the rally Danon will launch a new campaign: "Real Likud Supporters Don't Fold."

On Thursday, Barak suspended all permits for building projects in the settlements where contractors have not yet broken ground. The order, valid for 10 months, is intended to enforce the Security Cabinet's decision to restrict settler-home building in this period to the 3,000 housing units that are already under construction.

In an apparent "sweetener" to the settlement community, however, Barak also announced the approval of plans to build 28 public buildings, most of them educational facilities needed for the coming school year. Netanyahu had indicated in announcing the moratorium Wednesday that construction of public buildings, as well as construction in east Jerusalem, would continue.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259243022872&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



Israel okays 28 new settlement buildings, despite freeze
Defense Minister Ehud Barak on Thursday ordered the IDF to issue a temporary freeze order, but at the same time allowed the construction of 28 new public buildings in settlements.

Meanwhile, Haaretz has learned that the state is expected to ask the Supreme Court for more time to evacuate illegal outposts. The State Attorney's Office is expected to update the Supreme Court by next week on three court rulings that have not been carried out, for the evacuation of outposts at Eli, Horsha, and Netiv Ha'avot, as well as six other locations in the West Bank.

Haaretz also learned that in discussions on the matter between security and law officials, the state intends to ask the court for more time in order to prepare a suitable policy for razing the illegal outposts, in view of the developments related to the freeze in settlement construction. Advertisement


For its part, efforts were underway Thursday to maximize the impact of the freeze on the international arena. So far, the Israeli announcement had not had a warm reception in the international community. French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said the decision to freeze settlements "is a step in the right direction, and its implementation would be a positive contribution to peace."

Similar statements were issued by the German government, while the government of Britain emphasized in its statement that it was displeased by the fact that the freeze was not absolute - in other words does not include East Jerusalem. The Russian Foreign Ministry also issued a statement calling on Israel to freeze settlement construction completely.

On Thursday, Israel relayed messages to members of the European Union and other western countries, calling on them to pressure the Palestinian Authority and the Arab states to resume negotiations with Israel. In its message, Israel also called on friendly countries to help convince the Arab world to avoid unilateral steps in light of the government decision to freeze settlement construction for 10 months.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1131124.html

This is making me dizzy. Freeze, curtailing, natural growth. Argh! I get the feeling these are just endless streams of empty words meant to make me so tired and frustrated I only read headlines.:-(

[the_Wicked]

I don't see any point in a ban if the Palestinians are not going to honor it. Does that mean its possible it will be lifted?

[Herman the II]

Why is E.Jerusalem not included in this?
The ban/freeze was long overdue, good that it finally happened...

[RoyB]

Why should it be?

[GB_FXST]

Why is E.Jerusalem not included in this?
The ban/freeze was long overdue, good that it finally happened...

Long overdue?

The only thing long overdue is an end to Palestinian rejectionism and belligerency.

The Palestinians have already rejected this olive branch.

[GiladS]

Why is E.Jerusalem not included in this?


Because East Jerusalem is annexed to Israel under the Jerusalem Law.



The ban/freeze was long overdue, good that it finally happened...


Considering the fact that in the last 10 years Israel has been the only side showing any willingness to advance the peace process, I'd say you are wrong.

[GB_FXST]

Because East Jerusalem is annexed to Israel under the Jerusalem Law.



Considering the fact that in the last 10 years Israel has been the only side showing any willingness to advance the peace process, I'd say you are wrong.

A clarification: Israel has been the only side to show willingness for peace, ever. Not much has changed over the last 100 years.

[GiladS]

A clarification: Israel has been the only side to show willingness for peace, ever. Not much has changed over the last 100 years.

Well at least Arafat tried to pretend to be a partner for peace before the Camp David Summit of 2000, even that's not the case anymore.

But still Obama seems to think that it's all up to Israel. :roll:

[IsraDani]

useless move at this point.I dont see why to do this now.Obama? Who cares.Settlements are made of people.And people have needs,one of them is "natural growth".
I'm a meretz/labour voter since ages but this is plain ridiculous,it only makes our own people suffer for nothing.

[Ayub -al -Somal]

According to the palestinians this move is in response to what Obama wanted -->"A full settlement freeze" ...

The Palestinians wanted East Jerusalem included in the "settlement freeze".
In the words of Hannan Ashrawi { a palestinian legislator}

"If you accept the fact that Jerusalem is excluded it means you have tacitly accepted that Jerusalem has been annexed by Israel."

In other words Netanyahu here neither gave Obama what he wanted nor validated his immediate neighbours .

[RoyB]

All the Palestinian do is to 'want' things. Seems like we're trying to please them every time but never succeed.

[Ayub -al -Somal]

Maybe you're right RoyB, but if I stop doing something illegal , that I shouldn't be doing to begin with .. have I done YOU and society a favor or have done MYSELF a favor ?
I'm a little slow but I am having a hard time coming around the idea that we should all be excited about this .

[Henry's Fork]

Never understood the big hoopla about building settlements. Admittingly, i havent spent much time looking into it. Aside from all the lefty, foaming at the mouth, Juice hating websites here in the US.

Are the Juice actually bulldozing Pali homes to make way for new Israeli home to be built? Or are the Palis just crying because the Juice are actually doing something productive for their own people, unlike their own leaders?

[GiladS]

"If you accept the fact that Jerusalem is excluded it means you have tacitly accepted that Jerusalem has been annexed by Israel."


Considering that the Palestinian leadership is split between Hamas (governing the Gaza Strip) and Fatah (governing the West Bank), it seems that the Palestinians don't even recognize Israel's right to exist.

So not accepting our sovereignty over Jerusalem doesn't come as a shock to me at least, and I can live with that.


In other words Netanyahu here neither gave Obama what he wanted nor validated his immediate neighbours .

Why should we give Obama what he wants? He also doesn't want us to build in our capital. rofl

I and plenty of other Israelis have had enough with unilateral concessions on our part.

Abbas should stop being the drama queen and get off the tree he's climbed as everyone knows that the Palestinians in the West Bank have an interest in restarting the peace talks just as much as us (and even more perhaps).

[GiladS]

Never understood the big hoopla about building settlements. Admittingly, i havent spent much time looking into it. Aside from all the lefty, foaming at the mouth, Juice hating websites here in the US.

Are the Juice actually bulldozing Pali homes to make way for new Israeli home to be built? Or are the Palis just crying because the Juice are actually doing something productive for their own people, unlike their own leaders?

http://www.forumsci.co.il/HPLC/D09621_1.gif

[GiladS]

Maybe you're right RoyB, but if I stop doing something illegal , that I shouldn't be doing to begin with .. have I done YOU and society a favor or have done MYSELF a favor ?


Ehm, what are we doing that is 'illegal'?

[Ayub -al -Somal]

Would you understand GiladS if in our collective arab perspective , any new Israeli settlement in the West Bank would be deemed "illegal" ?
I am not asking you to agree with me , my question is could you understand it ?

[GiladS]

Would you understand GiladS if in our collective arab perspective , any new settlement West would be deemd "illegal" ?
I am not asking you to agree with me , my question is could you understand it ?

That's your prospective... not ours.

And no, I can't understand this prospective just as I can't understand the very popular notion in the Arab world that Israel should not exist.

[Ayub -al -Somal]

Well then my friend if you cannot understand what the opposing viewpoint is I don't know how you can "debate"/negotiate with anyone let alone making concessions.

[GiladS]

Well then my friend if you cannot understand what the opposing viewpoint is I don't know how you can "debate"/negotiate with anyone let alone making concessions.

I don't need to understand the other side when negotiating because I need to put my interests first and strive to making the best deal according to my prospective.

The end goal is to reach a compromise, not to let the other side trample all over my face.

And how about the Arabs try some compromising for a change? Rather hilarious when considering that all that Israel is asking of Abbas for now is that he sit at the negotiating table.

[GB_FXST]

Well at least Arafat tried to pretend to be a partner for peace before the Camp David Summit of 2000, even that's not the case anymore.

But still Obama seems to think that it's all up to Israel. :roll:

Pretend is the operative word.

I agree regarding Obama; and, he is in the wrong.





... snip ...

Are the Juice actually bulldozing Pali homes to make way for new Israeli home to be built?

... snip ...



No.



Well then my friend if you cannot understand what the opposing viewpoint is I don't know how you can "debate"/negotiate with anyone let alone making concessions.

There is a fundamental lack of common ground.

Franklly, the burden rests on Fatah. Fatah has to accept Israel, and embrace the ideal of compromise. If Fatah 1) cannot accept the presence of a Jewish State, and 2) advocates the destruction of Israel, there is nothing to discuss and no reason for Israel to attempt to understand the Palestinian position.

[Atlantic Friend]

A partial and temporary freeze (or slow-down) of settlements is certainly a step in the right direction, but in the end it's as powerful as a partial and temporary slow-down of attacks from the Palestinian groups.

It's a step, let's hope it'll be one that leads somewhere.

[ZZEZ]

A partial and temporary freeze (or slow-down) of settlements is certainly a step in the right direction, but in the end it's as powerful as a partial and temporary slow-down of attacks from the Palestinian groups.

It's a step, let's hope it'll be one that leads somewhere.

The notion of settlements lead to terror attacks is one of the most retarded things I ever heard.
What launched the first intifada?2nd intifada?hint:not the settlements.

[tanks_alot]

A partial and temporary freeze (or slow-down) of settlements is certainly a step in the right direction, but in the end it's as powerful as a partial and temporary slow-down of attacks from the Palestinian groups.

It's a step, let's hope it'll be one that leads somewhere.

I'm really not a fan of the whole settlement enterprize, but you're one sick puppy if in your world view, building houses = killing civilians.

[Moledet]

I guess the Palestinians are allowed to build as much as they want, for them it is not 'illegal' to build on disputed land.

Here's their planned new city:
http://www.rawabi.ps/video.php

[Atlantic Friend]

I'm really not a fan of the whole settlement enterprize, but you're one sick puppy if in your world view, building houses = killing civilians.

But of course yes, that is exactly how I see the world, that's precisely why I wrote it in just so many words, let's re-read my post. Surely the "building house=killing civilians" is there somewhere...

[Atlantic Friend]

The notion of settlements lead to terror attacks is one of the most retarded things I ever heard.
What launched the first intifada?2nd intifada?hint:not the settlements.

You seem to hear (and see) things that are not here, Zzez. And to insult people based on these non-existent things.

[Fat Lazy American]

The Obama misfire has seemed to rally even Israelis who are skeptical of settlements around them. Calling Gilo a settlement really went beyond the pale.

[Henry's Fork]

http://www.forumsci.co.il/HPLC/D09621_1.gif

Sad, but true.

[BorisA]

I guess the Palestinians are allowed to build as much as they want, for them it is not 'illegal' to build on disputed land.


For Israelis neither. Even if it is under Israeli law. They also receive(d) governmental back up (Sasson Report etc.).

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418626339&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[chatuli]

It seems that the PA leadership are bullheaded as fvck not to use any opportunity they're given to get something done on the ground to become more independent from their occupier. Obviously they aren't interested in peace or their own state. So I say fvck 'em. Overthrow the PA leaders and place Mossad agents for the better of both Israelis and Palestinians.

I agree! Couldn't have put it much better myself.

[GiladS]

Palestinian dream of statehood further away than ever http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif
By Moshe Arens

Never in the history of man has so much effort been invested by so many in nation-building as with the Palestinians. The United States, the European Union and many other countries have been investing huge resources as part of this effort. An American general, Keith Dayton, is training the Palestinians' fledgling police force.

And yet there still seems to be a long way to go. There is no unified Palestinian leadership. Hamas controls the Gaza Strip, and whereas the Palestinian Authority under Mahmoud Abbas is the generally recognized leadership of the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, its control of this area is far from complete.

It was only relatively recently that the Palestinians declared themselves a national entity and have been recognized as such by the international community. The United Nations partition resolution in 1947 called for the division of western Palestine into a Jewish and Arab (not Palestinian) state. Jordan's annexation of Judea and Samaria in 1949 and the awarding of Jordanian citizenship to the Arab population residing there met with no objections from any quarter. It was only with the foundation of the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1964, under Yasser Arafat's leadership, that a claim for Palestine was put forth on behalf of the Palestinian people.


But for many years the PLO was little more than a terrorist organization. And it was only after Arafat declared in May 1989 that the PLO's charter, which denied the legitimacy of Israel's existence, was "caduc" ("obsolete"), and the 1993 Oslo Accords that granted rehabilitation to Arafat and his terrorist group, that the PLO attained general recognition as the representative of the Palestinian people. So the Palestinians took their place among the recognized community of nations.

It did not take long before Arafat reverted to terrorism and the Oslo Accords were turned into ashes. Only after Arafat's demise and the election of Abbas, who declared that the Palestinians must abandon the weapon of terror, were the Palestinians showered with outside assistance in an attempt to chaperone them on the road to statehood. The "two-state solution" mantra was adopted worldwide, including by many in Israel. Some even began to argue that the only obstacle to achieving Palestinian statehood and peace with Israel was the Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria.

But while Abbas is in Venezuela seeking encouragement from Hugo Chavez, and the Israeli government declares a settlement freeze for 10 months in Judea and Samaria, the ultimate goal of Palestinian statehood seems further away than ever. So far there is nothing more than a virtual Palestinian state, a house of cards. Anyone who thinks the settlement freeze will serve as the foundation for this house of cards will soon find that he is mistaken. There is no connection there. The intensive care and artificial respiration provided by U.S. President Barack Obama may not be able to bring this patient to life.

At this time the Palestinian state may be no more than an impossible dream. The reality is that there are currently three Palestinian entities - the Kingdom of Jordan, the Hamas-ruled enclave in the Gaza Strip, and the area of Judea and Samaria that is not in the control of Abbas, although his headquarters is there. No law of nature prohibits the existence of three Palestinian states at some future date, but it seems patently unreasonable and not very likely. Freezing settlement construction in Judea and Samaria for the next 10 months is not going to change that.

So why did Benjamin Netanyahu's government decide on the 10-month settlement freeze, which is no more than a futile gesture? The prevailing explanation is that the Israeli government wanted to please President Obama. Although personal relations between the leaders of nations is not completely unimportant in international relations, it is certainly not the first priority in conducting a country's foreign policy. Relations between Israel and the United States are not based on personal sympathy, but rather on common values and strategic interests.

When there are differences of opinion between two friendly nations they are not resolved by trying to please one or the other leader. They are certainly not resolved through the issuance of orders by one side to the other. Israel is a small country, but it is an independent country. Netanyahu does not have to state, as Menachem Begin did, that we are not a banana republic, but he does need to make that clear. That is of great importance for U.S.-Israel relations in the years to come.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1131936.html

[LRPV]

But of course yes, that is exactly how I see the world, that's precisely why I wrote it in just so many words, let's re-read my post. Surely the "building house=killing civilians" is there somewhere...

Have you ever been to, let alone lived in the West Bank? I have and most of the crap in the media is centred upon'feed'. As an journalist explained to me, it's not reporting news objectively but meeting editorial guidelines.

I am pro-settler. I also have a Palestinian friend in Jerusalem. You should hear our 'robust' conversation.

The reality is not reflected in the media.

[Isaac Kasabian]

A complete disgrace and mistake, they should do the opposite, build more, it's Israeli land and it belongs to the Jewish people.

Netanyahu is weak and egomaniac even worst then the Israeli liberal left.

Edit: not worst then Ehud Barak , that one should be trial for treason.

[GiladS]

Dozens of Kiryat Arba residents confront Civil Administration inspectors arriving to halt construction works in Jewish settlement, force them to leave. Defense Minister Barak tours area, says 'government decisions must be implemented, and this one will be fully enforced'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3813321,00.html (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3813321,00.html)

[GiladS]

Settlers to appeal stop-work orders at special hearing

By TOVAH LAZAROFF (tovah@jpost.com)


After two years of waiting, Ortal Gavra, 26, got a permit for her new home in the Tekoa settlement last Tuesday, just hours before Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu announced that all new building in Judea and Samaria would be frozen.


The young mother of two was initially unaware that international politics had thrown a monkey wrench into her dreams.

"I have thought about the house so often. I can imagine what each room will look like," she told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

As Netanyahu spoke, she slept, having gone to bed early musing about her new home. The next morning she woke up to a harsh new reality.
On Wednesday morning, she and her husband Avshalom, 30, will join dozens of home owners and contractors who plan to go to a Civil Administration hearing to appeal the stop work orders they received on Monday.
A native of Tekoa, located just outside of Jerusalem in the Gush Etzion area, Gavra said she had wanted to build a new home immediately after she got married three years ago, but there were no available lots.


Instead they rented and hoped that a home of their own would soon be possible.

Two years ago, the couple was able to acquire rights to a half dunam lot as part of a new project that had opened up, but they had to go through multiple bureaucratic hoops. As a result, the project was approved only half a year ago but the couple was only notified of the decision just last month, Gavra said.

Gavra only received the actual permit to start building on November 24. On November 25, as she brought in a surveyor and arranged for the contractor to come with his tractor, neighbors informed her of what had happened.

"Did you hear what Bibi said?" The neighbors asked.

She had to admit that she had missed it, but she caught up fast, as that same day, the Security Cabinet approved the building freeze and on Thursday night the IDF issued an edict that turned it into law.

Still, she said, she did not truly believe that it would include her and her husband until Civil Administration inspectors arrived at the site on Monday and handed them a stop work order.

They were so aggressive, she said, as if she and her husband had broken the law, when all along they had done their utmost to do everything by the book.

Worse, she said, they confiscated the contractor's tractor, which they have not yet returned.

Gavra said they are paying for each day the tractor is there.
The entire situation, she said, brought back bad memories of the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza. Her brother was evacuated from the Gush Katif settlement of Kfar Darom. "We were with him the whole time," she said. The entry of Civil Administration inspectors into her settlement on Monday morning, she said, reminded her of those days.
What hurt her the most, she said, was the manner in which she has been treated, something that she hopes will change once she meets with the Civil Administration on Wednesday.


"We hope they will care and try to hear us," Gavra said.

She and her husband are not among those who have sworn to ignore the law. They are and intend to be, she said, law abiding citizens. "Its a shame that the nation which we feel an allegiance too, has treated us in this way," Gavra added.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259243057937&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[GiladS]

Settlers gird for battle

Settlers embark on fundraising campaign, plan Jerusalem rally to fight construction freeze

Efrat Weiss

The Yesha Council is planning several steps in an effort to avert the settlement construction freeze recently announced by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/unescape(this.href)).


The settlers will be holding a major rally in Jerusalem next week, scheduled for Wednesday at this time, to protest the construction freeze. Meanwhile, Thursday evening, the Yesha Council held an emergency meeting at the settlement of Kedumim to discuss its next moves.


“We won’t accept the freeze orders. This is a battle everyone is enlisting for,” Yesha Council Chairman Danny Dayan told Ynet at the end of Thursday’s meeting, attended by about 150 participants.


Notably, Kedumim residents have been able to prevent Civil Administration officials and security forces from entering the community and handing out the freeze orders for three days now.

Meanwhile, the settlers are also asking the public to donate money in order to help organize protests. A bank account number has already been earmarked to that end.

Dayan told Ynet that the settlers will be holding emergency sessions across Judea and Samaria in the coming days, in order to prepare for the battle ahead and delegate tasks. He noted that residents will continue to make efforts to prevent inspectors from entering West Bank communities.


The settlers are also pressing coalition members to resist the construction freeze, while turning their attention to the legal arena as well. A total of 14 local councils in Judea and Samaria have already petitioned the High Court of Justice against the decision to halt Jewish construction in the West Bank.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3815024,00.html

[GiladS]

Fighting the freeze

By TOVAH LAZAROFF (tovah@jpost.com)

Settler leaders Avi Na'im and Shaul Goldstein are more likely to be found talking with politicians in the Knesset hallways than outdoors fighting the IDF and the police.

Unlike the heads of the hilltop youth who openly defy the law as part of their ideological battle to preserve Jewish life in Judea and Samaria - such as Baruch Marzel and Daniella Weiss - and whose actions they often decry, these two men have looked to strengthen their settlements by working from within the system rather than without.

So it was a sign of the sudden spontaneous upheaval that has taken place in settlement communities this week that Goldstein, who heads the Gush Etzion Regional Council, and Na'im, who heads the joint Beit Arye and Ofarim Council, thought nothing of heading to the ramparts.

As civil administration inspectors flanked by Border Police pushed their way into settlements across Judea and Samaria this week in their crackdown on West Bank settlement construction, Goldstein raced to the Har Gilo community, located just over the Green Line.

Although the forces never arrived, Goldstein had intended to try and bar their way via civil disobedience. Na'im did go out to speak with the inspectors and police at the Beit Arye gate - and was promptly arrested. "I'm who they are fighting with?" a startled Na'im said later that day, adding that he had merely told them to go away and had not actually barred their path.


Afterward, Na'im received a round of applause when he entered an emergency meeting of the Council of Jewish Communities of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip - a body he had viewed in the past as too extreme.

To Kadima MK Otniel Schneller, a past secretary-general of the Yesha Council, the implication was obvious.

The 10-month moratorium on new settlement construction approved by the Security Council last week and enforced this week with lightning speed by Defense Minister Ehud Barak had "radicalized the moderates."
The Yesha Council held four emergency meetings this week and called on settlers to protest the moratorium nonviolently and to continue to build.
"I have nothing against the soldiers and the police," said Goldstein, adding that he had no intention of resorting to physical violence. He said he understood that in the end, he could not have stopped them, and at best had hoped to delay them.

Although there were a number of minor clashes between IDF and Border Police during the four days of inspector visits, the bulk of the protests did not end in blows, with settlers instead blocking the paths of security forces with either their bodies or their vehicles.

In the Avnei Hefez settlement, for example, women and children simply stood in a line across the road and refused to move. After a standoff of two hours, the inspectors marched through them to seek out building violations - as they did at all the other settlements they visited, protests not withstanding.

"We all have the right to protest," said Goldstein. "We want to show the ministers that they have crossed the line and that this is a democracy."
According to Yesha Council head Dani Dayan, the moratorium has created "a new hostile atmosphere" against the government.

"We prefer to work in coordination with the government," said Dayan, who was previously a hi-tech businessman and then a teacher at the Ariel University Center of Samaria.

But make no mistake, he said - "all of us know very well also how to handle confrontation."

While it was Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu who announced the moratorium last week as a gesture to the Palestinians, most settlers have blamed Barak for the steps he then took to impose arguably the most dramatic limitations on Jewish West Bank construction in the history of the settlement movement.

Most of them have refused to meet with Barak, but they did sit down with Netanyahu on Thursday morning.

Among other things, the injunctions that Barak hastily handed out to settler leaders, in some cases right before the start of Shabbat last week, stripped them of their power to hand out construction permits all together.
Barak has taken people with whom the government could have worked, people who love the law, the land and Zionism, and he has pushed them into the opposition camp, said Schneller.

There is now broad consensus among settler leaders who had previously been divided over the best path to preserve their communities' future, he added.

In Kiryat Arba, long-time settler activist Boaz Ha'etzni made the same observation.
With that in mind, the moratorium has in a way strengthened the fight to preserve Judea and Samaria, Ha'etzni said.

To make his point, he drew an analogy between the government's push for a Palestinian state and the process of cooking lobster. Place the lobster in the pot while the water is cold, and warm it up slowly, he said; the lobster will notice the danger only when it is too late to move. But place the lobster suddenly in a hot pot of water, and it will immediately crawl out.
This, in effect, is what the government has done, he explained: By moving too harshly, too fast, it has galvanized the kind of opposition that might have been reserved for an actual withdrawal.

The moratorium serves as a wake-up call, he said, enabling opponents to mobilize and prevent such a withdrawal.

"They acted too early, and that is very convenient for us," he said.
Palestinians and left-wing activists have denounced Netanyahu's decision to halt new construction projects as a semantic game, because he has allowed work to continue on some 3,000 new homes already underway in West Bank communities.

Indeed, both Barak and Netanyahu bent over backward in the last week to assure settlers that nothing had changed.

Netanyahu said in public statements that after 10 months, previous building policies would resume. Barak assured the two settler leaders who deigned to meet with him that the settlement blocs would be an integral part of Israel in any future negotiations with the Palestinians. Settlers have dismissed their words as insignificant. Efrat Council head Oded Ravivi said it was possible that the two leaders might not even recognize the full impact of their actions.

But the significance has not been lost on Ravivi, who joined the settler leaders Wednesday in a defiant gesture that involved laying the cornerstone of a new synagogue in his settlement.

"For the first time, the legitimacy of the settlements is being undermined," said Ravivi. "There has never been a government that came out with such a declaration."

He is well aware how a temporary gesture can quickly become a permanent one.

"Once you do it, you cannot do it temporarily," he said.
But in spite of the large white sign draped across the entryway to his settlement, stating, "No entrance to Bibi's inspectors," he does not intend to shut the gates on them.

"I do not have the right or the ability to do that," he said.

Nor, he added, was it effective. Fighting with the IDF and the police wouldn't lead to anything, Ravivi said.

He believed that protests, legal action and political lobbying were a better means.

"It is going to be a long and tiring battle," he said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1259831457865&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[GiladS]

Likud unity behind freeze melting

By REBECCA ANNA STOIL (updates@jpost.com)

The mostly-united front presented by Likud ministers following last week's announcement by Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu regarding the settlement freeze showed signs of weakness Thursday, as a number of Likud officials began to speak out against aspects of the ten-month moratorium.


One after another, three different members of Likud's ten-highest ranked politicians voiced warnings, while a Likud-dominated Knesset subcommittee called for a freeze to the freeze.

Strategic Affairs Minister Moshe Ya'alon, who voted in favor of the freeze last week as a member of the security cabinet, warned Thursday that if it continued beyond the 10-month period, ministers would begin to resign.
Ya'alon's comments reflected earlier claims by Minister-without-Portfolio Bennie Begin, in which Begin promised that at the end of the 10-month period, building would begin "at a faster pace than before the freeze."
Ya'alon and Begin were reportedly negotiating partners yesterday, approaching Netanyahu with a request that he rein in Defense Minister Ehud Barak, seen as the force behind the enforcement of the freeze. But Ya'alon, who is known for his sometimes loose lips, was not the only minister to raise an eyebrow at the freeze Thursday. Likud central committee chairman and Communications Minister Moshe Kahlon told Army Radio that he was disappointed with the initial reception of the freeze.


"We didn't expect a thank you, but we did expect some kind of gratitude. It took [Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas] 24 hours to respond," Kahlon said. "Europe is unilaterally declaring east Jerusalem [as the Palestinian capital] and the US did not send us flowers following this move. We should have found a different way to iron out the difficulties."
Deputy Pensioners Affairs Minister Leah Ness also attacked the practice - if not the principle - of the freeze. "The trampling enforcement of the orders stems from Ehud Barak's political interests," she told a pro-settler Website. "This is worse than disengagement."

A subcommittee of the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee also called Thursday on Barak to freeze the freeze, pending the solution of a number of legal issues that have arisen. Three of the five members of the Subcommittee for Judea and Samaria - Ze'ev Elkin (its chairman, and the coalition's chairman; Likud), Tzipi Hotovely (also Likud) and Arye Eldad (National Union) raised a number of concerns.

The MKs examined the lack of coordination between administrative decisions and their execution, citing the fact that the original decision was to start the freeze from the first day of official publication of the decision, but the orders handed out said that the freeze was immediate.
Similarly, the MKs complained that there was no apparatus in place to determine how and how much residents would be compensated for losses incurred as a result of the moratorium.

"The current process is worse than the disengagement [from Gaza]," said Hotovely following the meeting. "According to what we heard during the hearing, we are witness to a complete disregard for residents' rights. This wrong moratorium is underway with no planning and no way to compensate citizens and contractors whose entire sin was to build a house in the land of Israel."

By a vote of 3-2, with Hotovely, Elkin and Eldad voting in favor and MKs Yuli Tamir (Labor) and Gideon Ezra (Kadima) opposing, the subcommittee voted to call on Barak to suspend the construction bans until these and other problems were solved.
Tamir complained that the entire purpose of the complaints regarding the administration of the orders was "due to only one thing: an escape tunnel for settlers so that they don't have to carry out the orders."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259831456685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[dracon49]

Netanyahu lied to the ppl that voted for him. Before the elections he said X now he does the opposite-he does things that Kadima even didn't do.

[little icebear]

No matter how dissappointed Israelis might be, with the fact that very little comes in return from the Palis, whenever Israel makes concessions - it is simply a fact, that the Israeli settlements (all of them) are one of the biggest problems, probably the single biggest issue with regards to peace in the ME.

Even if one insists that there would be people calling for the annihilation of Israel anyways, it would be very hard to paint Israel as a bully or bad guy, if Israelis had never started to colonize outside Israel´s internationally recognized borders in the first place.

My 2 cents. Somewhat irrelevant since the settlements are there since decades and there´s no way you could turn back time, but I do think that it is this way...

[RoyB]

That's a pretty naive way to look at a situation you obviously don't know nothing about.
I find it absurd that people all around the globe, see buildings and sheds as the main barrier for peace, rather than violence.

[GiladS]

No matter how dissappointed Israelis might be, with the fact that very little comes in return from the Palis, whenever Israel makes concessions - it is simply a fact, that the Israeli settlements (all of them) are one of the biggest problems, probably the single biggest issue with regards to peace in the ME.


This sentence would be really funny if it wasn't so sad.

Is it so much more convinient to believe that Israel alone holds the key to peace that people such as yourself chose to overlook a history of conflict between Israel and Palestinians that predates the existence of the settlements?

Nevermind more current issues such as the fact that the Palestinians aren't united under a single leadership that can represent them in peace talks.

You have the Hamas governing the Gaza Strip (with a leadership sitting in Syria) which took over after Israel dismantled it's settlements there and also removed it's military presence. Let me remind you that Hamas openly states that its goal is to destroy Israel and creat a Sharia state in its place.
And in the West Bank you have the Fatah government that has reason to fear a Hamas takeover (would have taken over already without the IDF's presence in the West Bank) and thus pretends to play the tough guy and isn't even willing to sit and negotiate with Israel.

Oh but don't let that get in the way of your simplistic outlook...


Even if one insists that there would be people calling for the annihilation of Israel anyways, it would be very hard to paint Israel as a bully or bad guy, if Israelis had never started to colonize outside Israel´s internationally recognized borders in the first place.

The same people who called for Israel's annihilation before the settlements were built will still call for its annihilation after they are dismatled.

As far as they are concerned, Tel-Aviv is also a settlement built on what is their land.

[the_Wicked]

No matter how dissappointed Israelis might be, with the fact that very little comes in return from the Palis, whenever Israel makes concessions - it is simply a fact, that the Israeli settlements (all of them) are one of the biggest problems, probably the single biggest issue with regards to peace in the ME.

Even if one insists that there would be people calling for the annihilation of Israel anyways, it would be very hard to paint Israel as a bully or bad guy, if Israelis had never started to colonize outside Israel´s internationally recognized borders in the first place.

My 2 cents. Somewhat irrelevant since the settlements are there since decades and there´s no way you could turn back time, but I do think that it is this way...

First it was "Nobody could paint Israel as a bully if it didn't respond to Sadam's scuds during Persian Gulf War I", then it was "Nobody could paint Israel as a bully if it let Arafat return and negotiate with the Palestinians" then it was "Nobody could paint Israel as a bully if it will withdraw from the Gaza Strip". You know what? f*ck that, Israel will be painted as a bully even if it'll be populated by nothing but Baby Jesus, Baby Mohammad and kittens.

[GB_FXST]

No matter how dissappointed Israelis might be, with the fact that very little comes in return from the Palis, whenever Israel makes concessions - it is simply a fact, that the Israeli settlements (all of them) are one of the biggest problems, probably the single biggest issue with regards to peace in the ME.

Even if one insists that there would be people calling for the annihilation of Israel anyways, it would be very hard to paint Israel as a bully or bad guy, if Israelis had never started to colonize outside Israel´s internationally recognized borders in the first place.

My 2 cents. Somewhat irrelevant since the settlements are there since decades and there´s no way you could turn back time, but I do think that it is this way...

At the risk of repetition, I post the following for I think the third time:

The obstacle to peace is not settlements. The issue here is not encroachment of land.
The obstacle to peace is that Palestinians refuse to accept Israel, regardless of its dimensions. They refused a small Jewish state in 1937; the 2009 Fatah conference reiterated that same sentiment.

Do you believe that peace would come forth if Israel retreated back to the green line?

And if you do, please explain to me why there was neither peace nor a Palestinian state prior to June 1967?

[GiladS]

Opposition leader Tzipi Livni criticized Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's 10-month settlement moratorium on Monday, saying it demonstrated a lack of decision-making over the fate of outposts and settlement blocs.

"When I hear the prime minister saying to settlers that 'we'll get through this freeze together,' that it is a temporary arrangement and that everything will grow again, the meaning is that there is still no decision," she said at a Kadima faction meeting. "Unfortunately, when this government puts Gush Etzion and Migron in the same sentence it harms Israel's interest in retaining the larger settlement blocs."


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260181010702&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


Can't help but agree with her on this...

[Atlantic Friend]

At the risk of repetition, I post the following for I think the third time:

The obstacle to peace is not settlements. The issue here is not encroachment of land.
The obstacle to peace is that Palestinians refuse to accept Israel, regardless of its dimensions. They refused a small Jewish state in 1937; the 2009 Fatah conference reiterated that same sentiment.

Would Israel accept a serious peace proposal if it meant going back to 1967 borders?

[GiladS]

Would Israel accept a serious peace proposal if it meant going back to 1967 borders?

Israel has already proven that it is willing to make painful concessions to advance peace.

If it was giving up the Sinai following the peace agreement with Egypt or the unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip and parts of Samaria that was meant to push forward the peace process with the Palestinian (and has actually backfired).

Following the collapse of the Oslo Accords and the disengagement from the Gaza Strip Israelis have lost their trust in the Palestinians, who on their part haven't done anything to regain it.

[GB_FXST]

Would Israel accept a serious peace proposal if it meant going back to 1967 borders?

GiladS' answer below is well said.

Oslo and Gaza set a precedent that chills future peace prospects.

Some of my additional thoughts ...

We need to define what is meant by a serious peace proposal.

I think any serious peace proposal has to first assume two things: 1) a total and complete end of conflict agreement, and 2) neutralization of the radicals (or terrorists), such as Hamas, who have demonstrated that concessions, such as Oslo and Gaza are opportunities to attack Israel (stepping stones to their goal of destroying the state of Israel.) Neutralization of such groups is of course not a minor thing, and terribly complicated by the fact that outside forces, such as Iran, that have an interest in continued strife and instability.

Someone will likely post a counter point that the only way to neutralize the radicals is first by additional concession. Such a comment will bring us full circle, as both Oslo and Gaza demonstrate the futility of Israeli concessions as long as radical groups have power and popular legitimacy.

At any rate, barring Jerusalem and other select major areas, I think that the majority of Israeli's would acept a serious peace plan, even if it does require a return to the green line.


Israel has already proven that it is willing to make painful concessions to advance peace.

If it was giving up the Sinai following the peace agreement with Egypt or the unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip and parts of Samaria that was meant to push forward the peace process with the Palestinian (and has actually backfired).

Following the collapse of the Oslo Accords and the disengagement from the Gaza Strip, many Israelis have little trust left in the Palestinians and they haven't done anything to regain it.