G.I. Jane?

[molly747]

This is just for my own personal curiousity...

I couldn't help but watch the movie "G.I. Jane" this weekend, as they had it playing nonstop on the TNT network. It was a pretty good movie, but (I'm no SF expert) but it seemed unrealistic. What are anybody else's opinions on the movie and, in general, women in SFs? Can women ever fully integrate and be treated as equals? What are the pros and cons?

Just curious.

[Beowulf]

there was another thread concerning women in the military, I'll try to find the link. It is usually a very involved and lengthy discussion......

[Beowulf]

found it...
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1535&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[iamferdi]

I heard that Delta is the only SF group that includes women. They're in intelligence detachments? I dunno. I could be wrong :cantbeli:

[warchild1/27scout]

yea, i think its called the "funny platoon". i dont know but ill bet ya they are trained to be combat soldiers. and otherwise undercover operators when a female is needed.

[garyfanclub]

My opinion is that if they can pull their own weight they should be allowed to enter. None of this watered down PT bull**** that our Army seems to be pulling. If you want to be infantry then you sure as hell should train to be infantry.

The only reservation I have is I wonder if the American public is ready to see their daughters come home in a plastic bag.

[Duke]

Most of the o-courses in the US military are based on the male kinesiologic strengths--upper body. Conversely, women's strengths lie in the lower body--the legs. Thus, the problem we face in combining male/female assessment and selections is how do we construct a comptemporaneous course that judges its participants on relative strengths.
For example, how would SEALS level the BUD/S strength tests without destroying a proven weeder--those LOGS.

[Apogee]

Granted they may have a good deal of strengh in their legs, but many of them can't road march to save their life. I've seen way to many girls fall out of ruck marches with stress fractures in their legs and hips. I don't know what does it, but I do know that if you are rucking through some hostile country, the last thing you want is a PL with a busted hip from rucking.

As far as leveling the testing methods. Use simulated combat tasks like carrying a wounded comrad, long distance land nav. The sort of thing that SFAS uses. Just my 2 cents from someone whos never been in specops.

[ibstolidude]

DOD survey posted that the majority of women in the army did not throw a dummy hand grenade range past the casuality radius??

as the motto used to be:

"We up'ed our standards...
So up yours!"

[molly747]

This is a touchy subject, as most are caught up in the "post-feminism, men and women are completely equals" mentality. I guess I can pass judgment because I am a girl. However much women can kick ass, there are still things that keep us separate. Women, in general, have less upper body strength, therefore less likely to be able to haul a 200+ pound comrade on their shoulders (I have learned this in college, trying to haul a drunken, passed-out boyfriend to a car). Women are more likely sustain tendon injuries (http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1997/04apr/moeller.htm). Plus, different sexes, as Tane Angle stated, can screw up the close dynamic of bonds and trust. I mean, ever been to a unisex bathroom?--weird! I think I'd be a little distracted with naked men walking around and vice-versa. If a woman can get the job done, then, by all means, let her go. But if lives are at risk, then the cost is too great. The question I really asked if that if women should be able to achieve the same status as any man in SFs, or if they can at all? I've always wondered why people try to act like men and women are not different. After all, it's our differences that make life interesting!

[Nawlins]

My opinion is that if they can pull their own weight they should be allowed to enter. None of this watered down PT bull**** that our Army seems to be pulling. If you want to be infantry then you sure as hell should train to be infantry.


I've known a few women who could do it, but they are very few and far between. But even if a woman is just as tough, just as dedicated, just as well-trained as any other man... the men she works beside are still psychologically built to instinctively protect her... if she gets wounded they'll probably all slow down to help, and that puts lives in danger and missions at risk. I'm pretty much restating my opinion from the previous "women in the mil" thread... I don't think women belong in combat positions.

[a. enders]

... if she gets wounded they'll probably all slow down to help...

I dunno.If they are a bunch of assholes as I would be, she'd get the same treatment.Why?Well,she signed up,she knows whats gonna happen,just as those guys do.And really,that's an unfair assesment,as what's the standard infantry saying "No one gets left behind."(Yes,it's a Ranger thing,a Marine thing,and a tagline for a movie too.)A wounded person is going to slow a unit regardless of gender.

[SABER 2-3]

Women are just not designed to carry out the same missions that Men are. Just like SEAL TEAMs are not designed to carry out the same missions as a RANGER BN. This is not men't to be whose better, rather a whos the best for a job. Men are as a gender: Faster, stronger, bigger and MUCH more aggressive and willing. Women are: Intelligent, selfless, LIFE-MAKERS that tend to choose the end product over the process. Men and Women are equally important (think Sun and Moon) but are built for different tasks. Ms. Molly please understand that I am not lowering woman-kind, ya'll rule in my opinion and if not for you, many of us would not care if we came home.

OK, with that said, I'll be in the front leaning rest ...count em off!

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Interesting and for me somewhat timely thread. My countries Defence force has opened combat trade's to women and we've been told to expect the first female Infanteers in the next few months. I'm currently TOD'ed to an Infantry Corp training Company as a Platoon Sergeant so it looks as though i'll be part of the experiment. I believe Tane Angel hit the nail on the head with his comment on the societal and attitudinal obstacles of women in Combat roles. Males are brought up a certain way, at least in western nations, and females in another. Change that and we might make some headway. The fitness/strength debate is an interesting one, most women(aside from bulgarian weight lifters) would have problems lifting and carrying a 200lb man. Thats a given, but in my experience many young soldiers in this day and age have similar difficulties. Too much time on the net :lol: .
I think alot of compromises will need to be made to ensure that this integration works. And that worries me.

[FallenAngel]

I think women shouldn't be in anything they aren't in already. *IF* a woman could maintain the same "standard" as her male counterparts (a big "if" even with this politically correct double-standard **** these days), because, even though it really shouldn't, it would disrupt a unit's cohesion. That plus I heard somewhere that women are more likely to freeze in combat after seeing a wounded comrade (maternal instinct or something....the desire to help to the point of neglecting her duty.) Maybe that's true, maybe it's not- I am not sure but it would make sence.

Women aren't allowed in infantry, armor or artillery. (They are now allowed as combat pilots in the Navy). I think that's a pretty small group of things they CAN'T do compared to what they CAN do.

[LongWayToTheTop]

Well im an Aussie and ive worked with the military many times now, not long until i'll be in and i know for sure women cant be in Infantry, Engineers Or Artillery and our SASR, Commandos well anything to do with hardcore training they cant do thats why most women that wish to join the military go in the navy is alot easier then the army basic training is just too easy for the navy.

[Seraphim]

In Canada, women are allowed to be in infantry. Canada needs all the personnel as it can get. p-)

[LongWayToTheTop]

Well Australia only has about 70,000 Men and Women in the Aussie Military and no we dont use kangroos in the military.

[GLax]

3. I have heard that women are being allowed into the Stryker Interim Combat Brigades. That includes as crews in vehicles that are the equivalent of the M1A1/A2 MBTs. If they can prove themselves there, artillery, and perhaps even line infantry unit postings may open up to them.


Actually Tane Angle, those women were in the recon units of the IBCTs, but they were removed and placed into new jobs...http://www.cmrlink.org/WomenInCombat.asp?docID=154

anyway... not to offend anybody in here but has anybody ever had a sister? younger or older? ever notice that after you reach a certain point in your development they stop trying to beat you up? they become like your best friend? i believe the answer your thinking of is yes... why? simply because your sister tried once to fight u when you were even just a little smaller than she was nad she got the crap kicked out of her and u made her cry. and dont try and tell me u never fought your sister, everybody has, and sibling fights are the worst form of fighting, theres no rules, no regulations... just blood... :fork:

[LongWayToTheTop]

Well Americans do everything different if they start letting women into any Regiment or Battalion then its gonna **** up the U.S Army, Or it might just make it better maybe American women know what a friendly soldier is and the Friendly Fire rate will go down :P

[Nawlins]

dunno.If they are a bunch of assholes as I would be, she'd get the same treatment.Why?Well,she signed up,she knows whats gonna happen,just as those guys do.And really,that's an unfair assesment,as what's the standard infantry saying "No one gets left behind."(Yes,it's a Ranger thing,a Marine thing,and a tagline for a movie too.)A wounded person is going to slow a unit regardless of gender.


Let me clarify... I didn't mean to imply that a man wouldn't stop for another man... but (and I wish I could remember where I read the studies, I'll track it down) men are more seriously affected by the moaning/screaming of a wounded woman than that of a man, and that could keep them from completing their duties.

The same feeling that makes American men pause before shooting an armed woman or child is going to make a wounded female comrade affect them more seriously. That's what I think anyway...of course I know none of this from experience, just from reading about it, so maybe someone who's been there can tell me better.

[budanski]

I can bear the thought of sending my son to war, not my daughter.

I'm curious, say if you got wounded and needed to be hauled out of the combat zone, how good of job can a woman do in carrying me out or does she have to drag me instead? Same questions firefighters ask when asked how they would pull out victims from a burning building.

[ScoutRanger]

Let me clarify... I didn't mean to imply that a man wouldn't stop for another man... but (and I wish I could remember where I read the studies, I'll track it down) men are more seriously affected by the moaning/screaming of a wounded woman than that of a man, and that could keep them from completing their duties.

The same feeling that makes American men pause before shooting an armed woman or child is going to make a wounded female comrade affect them more seriously. That's what I think anyway...of course I know none of this from experience, just from reading about it, so maybe someone who's been there can tell me better.


If I ever notice a buddy falling out of a road march I'd push them. I'd push them till either they make the march or they mentally can’t handle it, which is something someone else can only push so much. I don’t know if I could push a woman to endure so much pain, I’d probably end up holding a bunch of her **** and giving her my dry socks.

Consider this, the day a child can be born free of gender rolls is the day I’ll view men and women as equals. But I don’t see that day any time soon.

[Nawlins]

Consider this, the day a child can be born free of gender rolls is the day I’ll view men and women as equals. But I don’t see that day any time soon.

Me either.

[10thvet]

I am an active duty Infantry PSG and I think this debate is a dead one...BUT
1) it's a proven fact that women are just as good as men in some catagories
2) women have a higher threashold to pain(as a whole)
3) Women do not have the same upper body strength as men.
Those are facts but they have nothing to do with the issue at hand...


Whether or not we agree with it or not, It's going to happen... Not because females want it, not because Infantry soldiers dont want, but because some ASSHOLE POLITICANS wants it.. Someone who does not have to live(or die) by the decsions will make the rules simply to get votes

healthy young men have problems with the physical rigors of being an infantryman. Thats a fact also.

The problem that is a show stopper as I see it is pregnacy(there are others but I will just cover this one) . Thier are rules in the militray to protect the unborn baby and the women carrying it(with very good reason)... Unfortunally it will adversly affect the squad or plt... For instance

A young lady is physicaly fit enough to meet army standards to get into the Infantry(and thats not that hard to do) She is 19. 3 years later she finds herself a Squad leader and she is 3 weeks pregnate...They adminastavily pull her out of her job(one of the rules for pregnate women is that they are not supposed to work around harsh chemicals, go to the field, range, or otherwise be stressed and then and then there are rules about a diet amoung others) ... 8 months later she has the baby... The squad whas been without the "squad leader" for 8 months.. thru an intensive training cylce that last 3 months(and that will happen before and happen again)Tm Leader stands up and takes her place as every juinor leader should...and then she has a few other months(not sure of the exact time period) to get back to physical shape

POOF... before she is really back into pre-pregnacy shape
The unit it alerted to a no notice deployment to Afganastan, liberia or Iraq.. Take your pick... who is going to run the squad?..

The female SL who hasnt trained with the squad for just about a year or the team leader who has been stepping up... The answer may not be as clear cut as you may think... Legally the female can not be moved from her slot as SL and legally she has the right to deploy with the squad if she is qualified on her weapons... But still does it make it right that she comes back and takes over and is not up on the everything that the squad as been doing over the last 8-10 months..

I, as a squad leder, came back from a knee injury after 3 months and the squads whole "personality" changed... I cannot think about what would happen if the SL was gone for 10 months...

I am getting ready to retire in a few months and maybe it's time I did because It's going to happen in the next 5-8 years

PS I liked GI jane for what it was... A movie

[andrew45c]

Has anyone from the uk seen that program called ultimate force (about the SAS there is this woman in that (officer) and she joins in with some of the grunt work but not the really macho stuff , dunno how realistic that is though.

[USAF G]

10thvet,
That was very well put. :) Congratulations on your upcoming retirement. woot G

[10thvet]

Thanks USAF G.

Im kinda stoked about it also :cantbeli:

[Beloved Shiv]

As far as the moovee's concerned, if I recall correctly, the scene where they're field-stripping M60s (or M16s) and being timed, she beats out the other dudes. She's the fastest after constant practice with sheer determination ... but I wonder why they made the film speed up in that shot?

As far as women in the military, women in combat, women in special forces - forget upper body strength, morale, unit cohesiveness ...

Women are f**king mean. If you think guys are more aggresive and brutal when necessary - as maternally suited as most gals are, just as many can be the scariest, most ruthless f'n organism we have walking around.

Just take my wife .. please! ba-dum-bum

[molly747]

That's true. Have you ever seen a girlfight? Yikes! Women don't wrestle or try to put the other in a headlock or have some strategy, they bite and scratch and kick and pull hair--and don't stop until there's blood. I can say this with certainty because I grew up with a sister and we used to beat each other to a bloody pulp!

[ScoutRanger]

I think it’s really cute that ya'll get in little fights with your sisters but I don’t think we are trying to debate a teenage girls determination to scratch someone to death. We are all well aware of how ruthless women can be hence the word that derives from a female dog. I can go down to the state penitentiary and find a fair share of killers but that means nothing. I believe the question at hand is weather they are eligible to be a part of a combat unit or SF team.

[Nawlins]

This might be a little off-topic, but I'm curious. I once heard a retired pilot (flew in Vietnam I think) say that women make good fighter pilots. Think there's anything to that?

[Nawlins]

It is my understanding that on average, women can multi-task better than men, that might be an issue in pilots, and in military service in general. Just some thoughts...

Thanks, Tane. I don't know anything about piloting, so I was wondering why women would be so well-suited to it.

[Ratamacue]

I'm pretty sure that women can naturally multi-task better than men and maintain a cool head under pressure, and I've also heard they can pull more G's than men.

[USAF G]

To add a bit, I've heard that women have better hand-eye coordination naturally than men. G

[Nawlins]

To add a bit, I've heard that women have better hand-eye coordination naturally than men. G

Really? I've never heard that before.

[USAF G]

I don't even remember where I've heard that, but it certainly, in my experience, seems to be true. G

[ScoutRanger]

And no perception of space, so look out ground crew!!!


Na, women make great pilots, but you know what they say about the Air Force.

[Ballistic]

Well Australia only has about 70,000 Men and Women in the Aussie Military and no we dont use kangroos in the military.

I don't see why not, riding a Kangaroo would be fun. :P

[FallenAngel]

I'm pretty sure that women can naturally multi-task better than men and maintain a cool head under pressure, and I've also heard they can pull more G's than men.

This is true. At least the G's part for sure. Why? Because their legs are stronger than men's on average, which can keep the blood out of there and in their heads.

The end result- women fighter pilots (in the Navy at least).

Also....ponder this. During the more recent conflicts involving air power (Gulf Wars, Balkans, etc) male attack/fighter pilots consistantly say that women controllers aboard AWACs aircraft are a hell of alot better. A pilot can more easily pull her voice out of the other "radio chatter" and follow the instructions given easier.

[Nawlins]

Cool! Thanks for all the info, fellas.

[molly747]

As for women withstanding G's better, I think it might be because our (women's) center of gravity is so much lower (our hips) and we have a more compact body. A man's center of gravity is his chest/upper torso, and he is usually bigger, making it much for difficult for him to control his limbs, as they are farther away from his body. Just some thoughts.

[Duke]

G-force and women withstanding it is a bit spurious. Withstanding G-force increases as statue decreases. This is due to the potential of large amounts of blood forced away from the CNS(brain) by GF and into the extremities. The farther blood travels to legs and arms, the harder the heart must pump for venous return. As unusally large amounts of blood travel away from the brain, there's is more of a risk to blackout. So, shorter aviators perform better than taller.

[James]

A bit off the topic but...

There was an RAF pilot in WWII namerd Douglas Bader. He'd lost both of his legs in an accident in the 1930s, but was able to return to active flight status. During combat against the Germans, he was able to maneuver much harder than his companions and his opponents, because he had no legs for his blood to pool in. Interesting stuff.