The Swiss vote is in. No to Minarets. [Archive]

Lazy Lob

11-29-2009, 03:06 PM

Swiss voters back ban on minarets
Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.

More than 57% of voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban.

The proposal had been put forward by the Swiss People's Party, (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which says minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

The government opposed the ban, saying it would harm Switzerland's image, particularly in the Muslim world.

The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the surprise result is very bad news for the Swiss government which also fears unrest among the Muslim community.

Our correspondent says voters worried about rising immigration - and with it the rise of Islam - have ignored the government's advice.

"The Federal Council (government) respects this decision. Consequently the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted," said the government in a statement, quoted by the AFP news agency.

“ This will cause major problems because during this campaign in the last two weeks different mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland ”
Tamir Hadjipolu Zurich's Association of Muslim Organisations
Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said the result reflected fear of Islamic fundamentalism.

"These concerns have to be taken seriously. However, the Federal Council takes the view that a ban on the construction of new minarets is not a feasible means of countering extremist tendencies," she said.

She sought to reassure Swiss Muslims, saying the decision was "not a rejection of the Muslim community, religion or culture".

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

After Christianity, Islam is the most widespread religion in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.

There are unofficial Muslim prayer rooms, and planning applications for new minarets are almost always refused.

Supporters of a ban claimed that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.

But others say the referendum campaign incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.

Before the vote, Amnesty International warned that the ban would violate Switzerland's obligations to freedom of religious expression.

'Political symbol'

The president of Zurich's Association of Muslim Organisations, Tamir Hadjipolu, told the BBC that if the ban was implemented, Switzerland's Muslim community would live in fear.

"This will cause major problems because during this campaign in the last two weeks different mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland.

"So with the campaign... the Islamaphobia has increased very intensively."

Sunday's referendum was held after the People's party collected 100,000 signatures from eligible voters within 18 months calling for a vote.

SVP member of parliament Ulrich Schluer said the campaign had helped integration by encouraging debate. He rejected the charge of discrimination.

In recent years many countries in Europe have been debating their relationship with Islam, and how best to integrate their Muslim populations.

France focused on the headscarf, while in Germany there was controversy over plans to build one of Europe's largest mosques in Cologne.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm

Published: 2009/11/29 16:30:28 GMT

© BBC MMIX

2495

11-29-2009, 03:17 PM

HellToupee

11-29-2009, 03:37 PM

One question though - why are the liberal elite so damn adamant that islam has to be tolerated at all costs even to the detriment of the native non-muslim populations? fear? stupidity? bit of both?

Maybe because western countries beleive in freedom of religion?

Gunbird

11-29-2009, 03:44 PM

If the muslims want to get violent, jail them and deport them to an islamic country of their choice afterwards. Either way, send a message that civil disobedience and force of arms to get their way will not be tolerated.

I am glad the people of Switzerland are brave enough to ignore the fear mongering from their government and send a very direct message - muslims are welcome, their political status symbols of domination are not. If the muslims don't like it, tough.

One question though - why are the liberal elite so damn adamant that islam has to be tolerated at all costs even to the detriment of the native non-muslim populations? fear? stupidity? bit of both?
Uh, we have laws here, written in our constitutions, solidifying freedoms. You know, the thing that makes us differ from the Islamic world.

You know what shocks me? The extent that people want our countries to be like Iran and Saudi Arabia, banning buildings/architecture and the like.

Oohhhhhh, so scary! A minaret!

It's just sad.

Grow some DAMN balls, people.

Fuschimuschi

11-29-2009, 03:46 PM

How is this military related?

Already discussed here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163066)

4X4Driver

11-29-2009, 03:46 PM

We already have your original Muslim bashing thread here Lazy...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163066

Sarig

11-29-2009, 05:14 PM

If the muslims want to get violent, jail them and deport them to an islamic country of their choice afterwards. Either way, send a message that civil disobedience and force of arms to get their way will not be tolerated.

It seems it is not muslims that are doing the civil obedience here. What do you suggest doing with non-muslims then? Or is it okay for non-muslims to do these things?

I wish the Swiss government the best of luck with this impossible referendum, which if I understand it correctly, is not compatible with the Swiss constitution.

Lazy Lob

11-29-2009, 05:19 PM

We already have your original Muslim bashing thread here Lazy...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163066

I bash all fantasists equally but I always apply Newton's third law. Now go and get that chip of your shoulder.

4X4Driver

11-29-2009, 05:23 PM

I bash all fantasists equally but I always apply Newton's third law. Now go and get that chip of your shoulder.

No chip on my shoulder..I'm having fun reading the civilized responses in the other thread. :)

Lazy Lob

11-29-2009, 05:26 PM

How is this military related?

Already discussed here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163066)

Maybe plucking your head out yer arse may help.

Lazy Lob

11-29-2009, 05:34 PM

No chip on my shoulder..I'm having fun reading the civilized responses in the other thread. :)

The Swiss maybe on a slippery slope but as I always say it is not change but the rate of change. Matters are made worse by saudi financing, it is so f@cking obvious. We all have our national quirks and the Swiss are very conservative. They do have a very beautiful country I can quite understand why they want to maintain their identity.

gazell

11-29-2009, 05:41 PM

One question though - why are the liberal elite so damn adamant that islam has to be tolerated at all costs even to the detriment of the native non-muslim populations? fear? stupidity? bit of both?

The liberal elite? Eh? Haha.

Why?

I'd call the situation a build up to or an existence of an extremist liberal dictatorship or somewhat like that.

4X4Driver

11-29-2009, 05:47 PM

The Swiss maybe on a slippery slope but as I always say it is not change but the rate of change. Matters are made worse by saudi financing, it is so f@cking obvious. We all have our national quirks and the Swiss are very conservative. They do have a very beautiful country I can quite understand why they want to maintain their identity.

Hey..I understand..belive me. I'm sure you all will understand it too when/if us Turks want to protect our identity also in our country. Swiss sets a pretty good examle for us.

gazell

11-29-2009, 05:50 PM

Hey..I understand..belive me. I'm sure you all will understand it too when/if us Turks want to protect our identity also in our country. Swiss sets a pretty good examle for us.

Do you jolly need one, really?:)

Lazy Lob

11-29-2009, 05:50 PM

Hey..I understand..belive me. I'm sure you all will understand it too when/if us Turks want to protect our identity also in our country. Swiss sets a pretty good examle for us.

I do........

Also the Beeb's article fails to mention that nearly 90% of Switzerland's 400.000 muslims aren't even Swiss nationals.

Redbeard

11-29-2009, 06:16 PM

I'm all for religious freedom. But I'm against religious discrimination as was the case in UK (it was UK?) were a hotel owner was arrested by police because his/her religious views offended muslims. I see that in Europe officials are to lenient to muslims. Another proof of that was the german's court verdict in the case of a rapist that was a palestine refugee.

Wildgoose

11-29-2009, 07:24 PM

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=295&pictureid=18320

YAY!!!!!

stonecutter

11-29-2009, 08:25 PM

Peanut

11-29-2009, 08:29 PM

Good for the Swiss.
If we can ban substances such as drugs that are deemed dangerous to humans because of their mind-altering properties, I see no reason why the biggest mind-fvk of all (religions that preach violence and human-rights abuses) shouldn't be at least curtailed in democratic countries.

Dont even want to waste my time on this one.

IMO, His post says it all:

The far right political parties in Switzerland (and the rest of Europe) are pro-Xn, anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant. They are both religious and political in nature and agenda.

HellToupee

11-29-2009, 08:35 PM

Backwoodshunter

11-29-2009, 10:04 PM

I think its just like any other town zoning law that maintains buildings have to be of a certain style or under a certain height. Minarets are very unique structures and don't really fit in alot of places.

coltfan111

11-30-2009, 12:09 AM

Well if the majority of Swis people feel that Islam is imposing itself on them then they have the right to say no to further "branding" of thier city's by saudi funded architecture. Calling them Nazi's is BS.

Gianni7476

11-30-2009, 03:17 AM

I am glad the people of Switzerland are brave enough to ignore the fear mongering from their government and send a very direct message - muslims are welcome, their political status symbols of domination are not. If the muslims don't like it, tough.

I don't know if you are aware of the political ads that were run before the voting, but the ones "fear mongering" were not the government, but the pro-comittee that managed to link the minarets with Sharia, burqas and other stuff that had nothing to do with it.

the_Wicked

11-30-2009, 03:18 AM

A modest victory to the European way of life.

Ought Six

11-30-2009, 03:23 AM

Religious bigotry is always a 'victory' for the bigots when it is successful. Trashing all Muslims while giving the Jihadi recruiters some great new ammunition; brilliant! :cantbeli:

Gianni7476

11-30-2009, 03:24 AM

A modest victory to the European way of life.

Damn, I should be working, but this thread is too tempting...

The European way of life? Like what is typical for the European way of life? Being Christian? Being liberal? Being narrow-minded against everything that is not from your culture? What about muslims from Balkan, are they Europeans? Is they way of life any different from my way of life?

Difool

11-30-2009, 03:25 AM

Thank god. At least one European country that doesn't give up it's own culture.
Volksbegehren are pure democratic tools that should be used much more in other countries.

the_Wicked

11-30-2009, 03:26 AM

Religious bigotry is always a 'victory' for the bigots when it is successful. Trashing all Muslims while giving the Jihadi recruiters some great new ammunition; brilliant! :cantbeli:

This has nothing to do with religious bigotry, everything to do with maintaining ones cultural identity, something Swiss has the full right to do.

the_Wicked

11-30-2009, 03:28 AM

Damn, I should be working, but this thread is too tempting...

The European way of life? Like what is typical for the European way of life? Being Christian? Being liberal? Being narrow-minded against everything that is not from your culture? What about muslims from Balkan, are they Europeans? Is they way of life any different from my way of life?

No, how about democracy, a secular government and environment, capitalism, moderation, rule of law, western moral values etc.
"Being narrow-minded against everything that is not from your culture" is actually a strong descriptor of the Islam-related cultures (such as most middle eastern and other cultures are).

Ought Six

11-30-2009, 03:29 AM

t_W:
"This has nothing to do with religious bigotry, everything to do with maintaining ones cultural identity, something Swiss has the full right to do."Bullsh1t. If the law were aimed at protecting architectural purity, it would ban all non-traditional architecture. It does not. It is aimed solely at minarets, and thus is discriminatory specifically towards Muslims and no one else. The law was written by anti-Muslim right wing parties that openly proclaim they want all Muslims deported. Any pretense of it being anything other than anti-Muslim is a laughable and flagrant lie.

the_Wicked

11-30-2009, 03:31 AM

t_W:Bullsh1t. If the law were aimed at protecting architectural purity, it would ban all non-traditional architecture. It does not. It is aimed solely at minarets, and thus is discriminatory specifically towards Muslims and no one else. The law was written by anti-Muslim right wing parties that openly proclaim they want all Muslims deported. Any pretense of it being anything other than anti-Muslim is a laughable and flagrant lie.

They ban minarets specifically because the muslims specifically represent a risk to Swiss way of life more so than any other group, probably because extremist factions are more prevalent in Islam than in any other religious group.

Ought Six

11-30-2009, 03:38 AM

t_W:
"They ban minarets specifically because the muslims specifically represent a risk to Swiss way of life more so than any other group, probably because extremist factions are more prevalent in Islam than in any other religious group."So you do admit that it is institutional bigotry against Muslims. At least you are honest about that, unlike some here. So then that kind of religious persecution is okay, if it is a group you do not like? So now we have a new thing for some people in Europe to be proud of; reverse dhimmitude. Nothing hypocritical about that, is there?

ggk

11-30-2009, 04:03 AM

define minaret: good luck swiss.

my quest:i can design a milion thing that doesnt look like a minaret but its actualy a minaret. Good luck Swiss Building Authority.

Herman the II

11-30-2009, 04:07 AM

define minaret: good luck swiss.

my quest:i can design a milion thing that doesnt look like a minaret but its actualy a minaret. Good luck Swiss Building Authority.

Then its alright isn't it? The people just don't want dominant "classical muslim/anatolian" architecture in their cities. If it doesn't look like a Minaret and blends in with the landscape and local architecture then everything is fine IMO.

Airhab

11-30-2009, 04:27 AM

A modest victory to the European way of life.

and you say your from Isreal???

ggk

11-30-2009, 04:37 AM

Then its alright isn't it? The people just don't want dominant "classical muslim/anatolian" architecture in their cities. If it doesn't look like a Minaret and blends in with the landscape and local architecture then everything is fine IMO.

islamic revivalism are stupid anyway, why would anyone think middle east architecture as islamic architecture? this is the 21st century. Mosque design have move on.

why would one design a mosque upright and tall? its gainst the concept of tawadhu or sense of humility. If i have a say on this all mosque should be built lower than the trees around them. God’s creations are more important than man’s isnt it?

Islam encourages actions of conserving resources and abhors wasteful acts of any kind. A minaret that of no use in the modern world are wastefull anyway.

JJHH

11-30-2009, 06:06 AM

I am a fierce supporter of referendums, let the people decide instead of politicians.

Very interesting development, can't wait on the follow up on this matter.

quinsen

11-30-2009, 06:27 AM

I'm sure you all will understand it too when/if us Turks want to protect our identity also in our country. Swiss sets a pretty good examle for us.
You already do, so nothing will change. My regards to Mr. Erdogan.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 06:59 AM

You already do, so nothing will change. My regards to Mr. Erdogan.

One word: Ignorant :)

..but thanks for the input anyways.

INAT

11-30-2009, 07:00 AM

God job for the Swiss! woot

oldsoak

11-30-2009, 09:34 AM

It was decided by referendum - a democratic vote - what do we want here ? A down side to democracy is that people wont necessarily agree with a "correct" pov - thats their right. Let 'em go. The proof of the pudding will be in 20 years time when we figure out who is still dealing with home grown jihadists and who isnt.

Stefan850

11-30-2009, 09:56 AM

Today political correctness is so strong that it basically goes full circle and at the end starts grabbing some of the freedom which it's supposed to protect.
I dont think that "in some muslim countries we cant do that and that so why should we let them..." is a valid argument because if you are aware someone is doing something wrong you should then know better not to do the same thing.

But countries should protect it's culture, values, language. Some of European countries are very, very old, maybe not by name but by other stuff and those kinds of things should be protected.

As much as this sounds un-correct it's the truth, people with better standards, living in better living environment etc tend to have less children and people living in third world countries tend to have more. And of course more people emigrate from for example my country, Serbia to some EU or US/Canada/Australia then the other way around, so "western countries" are at a big disadvantage here. It's all about the fine lines, this topic is about the Muslim Culture, there have been countless topics about Muslims in the EU, and in all of them we agreed or disagreed how Muslims cant find a fine line between preserving there culture abroad and integrating in to the new environment. So, in my humble opinion EU countries must find a fine line between respecting others faith, race, culture, gender etc and preserving it's own national and cultural identity.

When I really simplify the issue my opinion is that when you willingly emigrate to another country to look for a better life (which I am about to do soon, to Australia) you should do your best to set yourself correctly to that country not the other way around. I truly believe that, and I like to think that if I was a muslim I would still believe that and say the very same things here.

3rdMillhouse

11-30-2009, 10:01 AM

Instead of worrying themselves with stupid aesthetical triviliaties such as minarets, the Swiss should worrying themselves with the passing of laws that would prevent a hipothetical islamization of their country, such as forbiding any sort of legislation based on the sharia code to be voted in their parliament and also granting their democracy with the legislative apparatus that would make possible to oust any legislator that tries to pass on such sort of law.

Sarig

11-30-2009, 10:23 AM

3rdMillhouse

11-30-2009, 10:28 AM

But what if a sharia law is accepted through a referrendum? Is that not as democratic as it gets?

I pity the swiss, human rights convention on one side, and a referrendum on the other.

You see, a referendum is only democratic as long it doesn't subvert any democratic freedom. For example, the current referendum, to ban minarets, is undemocratic because violates the freedom of religion rights of the muslims minorities. But lets conjecturate and imagine a future in which the muslims are a significative parcel of the swiss population and their elected legislators try to pass on legislation making mandatory the use of burkha for muslims women, that would be undemocratic, even though it is technically legal and democratically legitimate.

Sarig

11-30-2009, 11:06 AM

You see, a referendum is only democratic as long it doesn't subvert any democratic freedom. For example, the current referendum, to ban minarets, is undemocratic because violates the freedom of religion rights of the muslims minorities. But lets conjecturate and imagine a future in which the muslims are a significative parcel of the swiss population and their elected legislators try to pass on legislation making mandatory the use of burkha for muslims women, that would be undemocratic, even though it is technically legal and democratically legitimate.

I see we are in perfect agreement :)

theholeinthedonut

11-30-2009, 11:25 AM

Hey..I understand..belive me. I'm sure you all will understand it too when/if us Turks want to protect our identity also in our country. Swiss sets a pretty good examle for us.

The turks don't need any example....Malatya, April 18th 2007...does it ring any bell???? Do you care to tell us what's the latest news on the court hearings about the murders?!

I don't think the Swiss did the right thing, but it's their country and their decision so cool down. It is still safer to be a Muslim in the westerb world then it is to be a christian in the muslim world.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 11:28 AM

The turks don't need any example....Malatya, April 18th 2007...does it ring any bell???? Do you care to tell us what's the latest news on the court hearings about the murders?!

I don't think the Swiss did the right thing, but it's their country and their decision so cool down. It is still safer to be a Muslim in the westerb world then it is to be a christian in the muslim world.

Naah...I'm not sure about that you know..if we count all the Muslims set a blaze in various european countries from time to time, you guys would come in first place ;)

theholeinthedonut

11-30-2009, 11:38 AM

Naah...I'm not sure about that you know..if we count all the Muslims set a blaze in various european countries from time to time, you guys would come in first place ;)

Where are Muslims set ablaze in europe?

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 11:41 AM

t_W:Bullsh1t. If the law were aimed at protecting architectural purity, it would ban all non-traditional architecture. It does not. It is aimed solely at minarets, and thus is discriminatory specifically towards Muslims and no one else. The law was written by anti-Muslim right wing parties that openly proclaim they want all Muslims deported. Any pretense of it being anything other than anti-Muslim is a laughable and flagrant lie.

People's vote...sorry buddy. I'm not supporting the decision, but hey this is just magnificent. A representative system that really gets into "core representation". Supposedly you folks call this democracy.

3rdMillhouse

11-30-2009, 11:42 AM

Where are Muslims set ablaze in europe?

France, Switzerland, Sweden, Londonistan, Germany.....

People's vote...sorry buddy. I'm not supporting the decision, but hey this is just magnificent. A representative system that really gets into "core representation". Supposedly you folks call this democracy.

As I've said, the majority's will doesn't always constitute as a democratic decision, sometimes it's a majority's dictatorship, in that case such referrendum was undemocratic because it violated one of the fundamental constitutional freedoms which is the freedom of religion.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 11:44 AM

Where are Muslims set ablaze in europe?

Oh...that's why you tought they were safer there...you simply "don't know" about it. How convenient :roll:

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 11:46 AM

France, Switzerland, Sweden, Londonistan, Germany.....

Set ablaze? Oh...last time I checked they're mainly regarded with concern (obviously because they're terrible taxi and bus drivers) but other than that I join my letzebuergisch colleague, they're safer over here, that's why they come in the first place.

On the referenda issue. 2 points.

1. A referendum is a representative tool.
2. Representativity is not democracy. So no matter what, any election is a majority choice that would leave people out.

On a side note, the referendum did NOT expressed a BAN on Islam, just on an architectural artefact, minarets. They can have mosques, just not the prayer calling towers. Have your facts straight. If that seems offensive to you. Bear in mind that we can go back to the basics. Cuius Regio, Eius Religio.

Steak-Sauce

11-30-2009, 11:47 AM

France, Switzerland, Sweden, Londonistan, Germany.....

Can you please provide a source for this? Or was it sarcasm?

b0sco

11-30-2009, 11:57 AM

More Muslims in Europe are killed in honor killings than by racially motivated violence.

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 11:59 AM

More Muslims in Europe are killed in honor killings than by racially motivated violence.

Cough muslim females cough.

theholeinthedonut

11-30-2009, 12:07 PM

Oh...that's why you tought they were safer there...you simply "don't know" about it. How convenient :roll:

You are even not fooling yourself....where are Muslims set ablaze? Answer my question!

Danik

11-30-2009, 12:07 PM

What is the beef with minarets? Mosques are allowed, but that bit of them is not? What is so disconcerting about towers? If they don't want anyone shouting with loud speakers from them in the middle of Zurich then ban the practice, if the want them to fit into the skyline than mandate that as part of the buildings code...either way this is a non-issue.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 12:22 PM

You are even not fooling yourself....where are Muslims set ablaze? Answer my question!

I don't think I will make to effort to come so low..if you don't know about it by now, there must be some special reasons you don't hear these things.

Danik

11-30-2009, 12:25 PM

I don't think I will make to effort to come so low..if you don't know about it by now, there must be some special reasons you don't hear these things.

Or perhaps you have no examples...because they do not exist in the context you need them to.

JJHH

11-30-2009, 12:26 PM

You are even not fooling yourself....where are Muslims set ablaze? Answer my question!

He probably meant Muslims set Europe ablaze.. Paris, Denmark..

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 12:28 PM

Or perhaps you have no examples...because they do not exist in the context you need them to.

Oh..there are plenty..but I don't waste my time with the "kind" who pretend not knowing about it ;)

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 12:30 PM

4x4 now now, don't start an already lost argument. They're not set ablaze. Hell they're even allowed to retain practices that are heavily charged in their guest country. The women's issue (hymen reparing), arranged marriages, wedding lockdowns etc etc etc go by far against our norms than what they suffer, yet we don't tackle those issues. However you show here and call out the muslim hate card? In Europe everyone hates every one (especially on the road).

Anyway, easy deal. If they're set ablaze why do they come in massievely?

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 12:33 PM

b0sco

11-30-2009, 12:35 PM

Artist's rendition of the event:

http://i46.tinypic.com/23jl6j5.jpg

theholeinthedonut

11-30-2009, 12:37 PM

Oh..there are plenty..but I don't waste my time with the "kind" who pretend not knowing about it ;)

Dude..you're well known ass kisser here :)

You are showing your true face my friend. All you have left is throwing names and belittling other people, are you a typical turk or a typical muslim...or just a common arsehole like there are in any country, culture or religipus community?

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 12:40 PM

You are showing your true face my friend. All you have left is throwing names and belittling other people, are you a typical turk or a typical muslim...or just a common arsehole like there are in any country, culture or religipus community?

Ah..the typical "Typical Turk/Muslim" argument eh?

Btw..I said I support the swiss decision you know ;)

Now..go hit the google and learn about what you've been missing.

hsh2

11-30-2009, 12:43 PM

Set ablaze? Oh...last time I checked they're mainly regarded with concern (obviously because they're terrible taxi and bus drivers) but other than that I join my letzebuergisch colleague, they're safer over here, that's why they come in the first place.

On the referenda issue. 2 points.

1. A referendum is a representative tool.
2. Representativity is not democracy. So no matter what, any election is a majority choice that would leave people out.

On a side note, the referendum did NOT expressed a BAN on Islam, just on an architectural artefact, minarets. They can have mosques, just not the prayer calling towers. Have your facts straight. If that seems offensive to you. Bear in mind that we can go back to the basics. Cuius Regio, Eius Religio.

Very good post, thx.

One little precision though. It isn't even a bon on minarets.

It is a ban on the construction of NEW minarets.

Zeev

11-30-2009, 12:48 PM

Swiss is on the good way, rest of europe just have to follow.

Congrats to swiss ppl. They are only 6 millions but they damn know how to make their interests respected.

Steak-Sauce

11-30-2009, 12:50 PM

Naah...I'm not sure about that you know..if we count all the Muslims set a blaze in various european countries from time to time, you guys would come in first place ;)

Now..go hit the google and learn about what you've been missing.

Because you can't, I did a google research with "muslim ablaze europe":

1. BBC NEWS | Europe | Dutch Islamic school set ablaze
2. Austria: Classmates Set Fire to Muslim Girls Hijab | loonwatch.com
3. The Liberty Sphere: FRANCE ABLAZE WITH MUSLIM VIOLENCE
4. The Swiss vote is in. No to Minarets. - Page 4 - Military Photos p-)

So please enlighten us with a source to your claims, that "from time to time (...) Muslims set a blaze in various european countries"

JJHH

11-30-2009, 12:50 PM

Swiss is on the good way, rest of europe just have to follow.

Congrats to swiss ppl. They are only 6 millions but they damn know how to make their interests respected.

The Dutch Freedom Party wants a minaret ban as well..

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 12:53 PM

Dude..you're well known ass kisser here :)

You're not going to convince anyone here that the Turks are highly loved in Germany..not even the Germans :)

Arse kisser? Oh MP.net has turned Communist now? Oh yeah...Now it's Germany and Turks. Thought it was about Europe and muslims?

But again, we hate any one. You're being stubborn and dishonest. Answer me. Why are TURKS even having the right to be assimilated as GERMANS, be part of the Mannschaft all this while being so much hated by ZE GERMANZ.

You know what you remind me of the old generation Albanians. Outside the community, No Good.

On a side note: I kiss so much arse that I can without prejudice speak to a greek, serbian, turk, german etc etc etc while according to history, I should pretty much start a bonfire with the aformentionned nationalities.

Edit: I do disagree with the ban (obviously you didn't read my original post) BTW.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 12:56 PM

Because you can't, I did a google research with "muslim ablaze europe":

1. BBC NEWS | Europe | Dutch Islamic school set ablaze
2. Austria: Classmates Set Fire to Muslim Girls Hijab | loonwatch.com
3. The Liberty Sphere: FRANCE ABLAZE WITH MUSLIM VIOLENCE
4. The Swiss vote is in. No to Minarets. - Page 4 - Military Photos p-)

So please enlighten us with a source to your claims, that "from time to time (...) Muslims set a blaze in various european countries"

Hahaha..you guys crack me up...

hmmm...I started to sense a vicious ideology behind this denial.

Muzungu

11-30-2009, 12:59 PM

two threads on the same topic! damn!!

people are really free these days!

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 01:01 PM

Arse kisser? Oh MP.net has turned Communist now? Oh yeah...Now it's Germany and Turks. Thought it was about Europe and muslims?

But again, we hate any one. You're being stubborn and dishonest. Answer me. Why are TURKS even having the right to be assimilated as GERMANS, be part of the Mannschaft all this while being so much hated by ZE GERMANZ.

You know what you remind me of the old generation Albanians. Outside the community, No Good.

On a side note: I kiss so much arse that I can without prejudice speak to a greek, serbian, turk, german etc etc etc while according to history, I should pretty much start a bonfire with the aformentionned nationalities.

Edit: I do disagree with the ban (obviously you didn't read my original post) BTW.

Hey..I don't approve their denial of integration one bit..and I do agree with the germans who are fed up with them ( I also support the swiss decision)

It was the ignorance an hypocracy from the other side got me arguing so long ;)

the_Wicked

11-30-2009, 01:01 PM

and you say your from Isreal???

Yes, so?

..

California Joe

11-30-2009, 01:02 PM

Oh..there are plenty..but I don't waste my time with the "kind" who pretend not knowing about it ;)

If you want to run your mouth be prepared to back up what you're talking about or STFU. So far all I've seen are weird allegations and bullsh*t winkie smilie emoticons.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 01:10 PM

If you want to run your mouth be prepared to back up what you're talking about or STFU. So far all I've seen are weird allegations and bullsh*t winkie smilie emoticons.

How could I guess they could be so idological in their denial

Here you go..now..don't you guys give me the "lunatic racist" bs, cuz the ones killed in Turkey were killed by a a "lunatic racist" too.

Immigration: Solingen: Hate fuelled boy who loved fire:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/immigration-solingen-hate-fuelled-boy-who-loved-fire-associated-press-1489837.html

Mystery fires blaze on in Germany

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=030_1202307993

Herman the II

11-30-2009, 01:11 PM

Immigration: Solingen: Hate fuelled boy who loved fire:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/immigration-solingen-hate-fuelled-boy-who-loved-fire-associated-press-1489837.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/immigration-solingen-hate-fuelled-boy-who-loved-fire-associated-press-1489837.html)

1993? Thats it....?:roll:

Mystery fires blaze on in Germany

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=030_1202307993

An accident which had nothing to do with race or religion. Just a faulty electric cable...
Carry on.

b0sco

11-30-2009, 01:13 PM

Something from 1993, gg.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 01:14 PM

So..you guys have an "date of expiration" stamp on these kind of things?? hmmm..

b0sco

11-30-2009, 01:15 PM

If they are brought up to support bull**** claims, yes.

Herman the II

11-30-2009, 01:16 PM

So..you guys have an "date of expiration" stamp on these kind of things?? hmmm..

You were the one claiming it happened regularly. So...

California Joe

11-30-2009, 01:17 PM

I don't pay attention to the current stats in the world on "Westerners immolating Muslims for sh*ts and giggles" vs. "Muslim fanatics killing other Muslims, especially their women or US soldiers they happen to be serving with in Texas" but I'm pretty sure which statistic would be higher...

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 01:18 PM

London...Madrid...Fort Hood? This is what you want to hear? Then let me, the arse kisser, be the sacrificial lamb.

Yes I fuel my hate with türk kadaiyf that I buy each Sunday thirty meters from my house at a Trabzon-born Turk's outlet (he's also my baker). There is too much Sugar into it. Gives me thirst wich I quench with some crappy YediGün. I hate Türks and minarets, because they make me feel underequipped down in my pants.

Now you can report me.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 01:20 PM

You were the one claiming it happened regularly. So...

Seems like you'll manage to surface somehow whatever presented.

theholeinthedonut

11-30-2009, 02:05 PM

1993? Thats it....?:roll:

An accident which had nothing to do with race or religion. Just a faulty electric cable...
Carry on.

A faulty cable installed by the victims who wanted to circumvent the meter.

Herman the II

11-30-2009, 02:34 PM

A faulty cable installed by the victims who wanted to circumvent the meter.

So they were stealing electricity? Interesting, didn't remember...

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 02:49 PM

A faulty cable installed by the victims who wanted to circumvent the meter.

So "concluded" the German authorities...:roll:

Can't you guys see how despereate you all look?

I'm sure next you'll come up with "they burned themselves"..no racists exists in Germany...

Why you keep conviently skip the Solingen incident?

Wait..that was in 1993..so it doesn't count.

keep telling that to yourselves.

Ozzy[NO]

11-30-2009, 02:56 PM

So "concluded" the German authorities...:roll:

Can't you guys see how despereate you all look?

Well, it's easy to see how desperate you are....

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 02:59 PM

;4591842']Well, it's easy to see how desperate you are....

I'm sure it looks that way from "western" side. Your need for joining on that side proves me otherwise though.

hsh2

11-30-2009, 03:03 PM

Btw, a couple of people have posted the Minaret in Olten saying that it is in an industrial zone or something along those lines. "Not a big deal", "bothers nobody" etc.

For the record:

Heres a picture of it from another angle. The pictures is from the Times.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00652/swiss_minaret_652554a.jpg

another picture:
http://modules.drs.ch/dynimages/576/data/pictures/drs4/bildergalerie/2009/moscheen_schweiz/41969.091020_schweiz_minarette_04-576.jpg

What about the other 3?

http://www.drs1.ch/www/de/drs1/nachrichten/schweiz/abstimmung-vom-29-november-2009/147491.zahl-der-moscheen-nimmt-stetig-zu.html

the one in Zurich, a very clear example:
http://www.nzz.ch/images/__1.551081.1219827291.jpg

little icebear

11-30-2009, 03:09 PM

So "concluded" the German authorities...:roll:

Because German authorities have a habbit of hushing up cases of violence against foreigners?

Don´t know if I should laugh or cry... :roll:

muck

11-30-2009, 03:14 PM

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 03:20 PM

Because German authorities have a habbit of hushing up cases of violence against foreigners?

:roll:

Dunno..do they?

Whatever happened to this killer? did they ever catch him??

Germany's Turkish community is being stalked by a gunman who has struck nine times

A SERIAL killer who has shot nine people in broad daylight is sparking fear in the Turkish community in Germany.
Police have set up a joint investigation unit with detectives in Turkey to track down the man, dubbed the Kebab Killer, before he strikes again. “There has never been a series of murders like this in Germany,” said Wolfgang Geier, the superintendent leading the search. “The killer goes into a place, shoots and disappears without leaving a single trace — only the bullets

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article706498.ece

oldsoak

11-30-2009, 03:30 PM

going back to the topic -
GGK has pointed out that you dont need a minaret. It can be a discrete hall ( or as richly decorated as you wish ) with the necessary washing arrangements and internally laid out in the correct fashion and orientated in the correct direction. You can have it with segregated screens etc - all on the inside, very discrete, no problems. If this arrangement were banned, then there is a problem.
Trying to build something that going to stand out is not the wisest thing to do in a conservative area - unless you either testing the water or could not care less what the natives think.

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 03:35 PM

little icebear

11-30-2009, 03:36 PM

Whatever happened to this killer? did they ever catch him??

They did not. Yet. Soko is still looking for him, the case is not closed. Relevance?

4X4Driver

11-30-2009, 03:38 PM

They did not. Yet. Soko is still looking for him, the case is not closed. Relevance?

Just sincerely wondered the outcome..I haven't heard anything about it lately either.

Ayub -al -Somal

11-30-2009, 04:04 PM

Well none of the mosques I go to have minarets .
One looks like an old trailer and the other used to be a church .
Heck it is even permited for a muslim to pray in an actual church , given he asks permission and has no other option .
This just sends an unfortunate message in my opinion , but since nobody is dead at the end of the day , we should take it as an opportunity to become more aware of each other .

I just hope now that the self proclaimed "sword of the believers " Mu'amar Qaddafi doesn't cut the swiss their oil in the name of Allah , it would just make it worse rofl

AroundTheCorner

11-30-2009, 04:09 PM

I'm happy Switzerland voted against it. They know what's best for them.

hsh2

11-30-2009, 04:14 PM

I just hope now that the self proclaimed "sword of the believers " Mu'amar Qaddafi doesn't cut the swiss their oil in the name of Allah , it would just make it worse rofl

He already did a couple of weeks ago.

Not a problem though since we now get our oil from Azerbaijan.

I do not myself drive/own a car but I've never heard anybody talk about either horrendous oil prices or even a shortage of oil in CH.

pg_ord

11-30-2009, 04:40 PM

Muslim Leaders Condemn Swiss Minaret Ban (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125959880244169871.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsThird)

Azatavrear

11-30-2009, 04:47 PM

A minaret is an architectural device. In medieval Arab cities, there was no chance the Muezzin would have been heard by the crowd in the streets if he hadn't have had some elevated position to call for prayer. There's no need for that anymore and there's no Surah which would define that a mosque needs a minaret.

A mosque without a minaret does not restrict any Muslims' right on freedom of speech.

And as for Switzerland and the sh1tstorm of political correctness which threatens to blow this peaceful little country away now, let me tell you this: the insisting on a mosque with minarets against the explicit will of the host society says more about the unwillingness of Muslim immigrants to integrate themselves and be a productive member of their host society, than it says about the unwillingness of the host society to integrate Muslim immigrants.

Well said but you know true Muslims feel the need for these speaker towers that scream Allah Akbar three to four times a DAY reminding Muslims in the vicinity to face east and start praying where ever they stand?
Those things do not belong in Western countries. As a Christian who has lived in Muslim country I tell you, those towers are annoying as hell and will drive you nuts (Please do not misunderstand me, nothing against Muslim people)
Man, I have heard it so many times that I can say the whole pray practically by heart (and it is a long prayer) not knowing what it means, even now after 20 years.

I am sorry but I hate those things and Europeans are making a big mistake allowing them to be propped up.............they are also a sign of Muslim dominance in case anybody missed it and most Muslims do not want to intergrate, they say they want to bring the glory of Islam to the West.

Well done Swiss.

MichaelF

11-30-2009, 04:53 PM

I don't see the need to allow an influx of immigrants to stamp their culture over that of the indigenous population, should that population not wish it. If that is unacceptable to the immigrants...there are other destinations. If not, they can build mosques without minarets.

Certainly no Muslim state permits unfettered construction of churches, synagogues, ashrams or shrines at all...never mind simply stipulating a point of architecture.

muck

11-30-2009, 05:12 PM

Well said but you know true Muslims feel the need for these speaker towers that scream Allah Akbar three to four times a DAY reminding Muslims in the vicinity to face east and start praying where ever they stand?
Those things do not belong in Western countries. As a Christian who has lived in Muslim country I tell you, those towers are annoying as hell and will drive you nuts (Please do not misunderstand me, nothing against Muslim people)
Man, I have heard it so many times that I can say the whole pray practically by heart (and it is a long prayer) not knowing what it means, even now after 20 years.

I am sorry but I hate those things and Europeans are making a big mistake allowing them to be propped up.............they are also a sign of Muslim dominance in case anybody missed it and most Muslims do not want to intergrate, they say they want to bring the glory of Islam to the West.

Well done Swiss. I'd never complain about the calls of Muezzins if I travelled a Muslim country, nor would I question their customs and habits.

That said, there's little space for some of these in European societies. As soon as these customs do affect everyday life in a community, the host society has a right to a say in a matter.

The extent of the current outcry about the referendum is appalling.

therifleman

11-30-2009, 05:31 PM

Azatavrear

11-30-2009, 05:45 PM

..........
The extent of the current outcry about the referendum is appalling.

Their response is more than appalling...........it is an insult to the West.

They don’t want to understand or even care how it affects the people. They don’t even consider or give a minute thought about other people’s feelings and peace of mind. I don't understand, do they think they are the only ones that matters?
Right away they jump the gun and their Muslim leaders calls the Swiss racist, haters of Muslims, extremist, anti-immigrant, xenophobic (knowing very well this has a political effect on Western free world decision making process, where if the tables were turned it would be a no brainer for them to stop it on its tracks).........then they threaten to hurt them by cutting off business and relations. What?!

muck

11-30-2009, 05:51 PM

Good on the Swiss. It is about time that a European country refused to be intimidated by Islamic fervor. As for those who are upset, When Christians and Cathedrals are allowed in Mecca, then you can b*tch about the minaret ban.

I see how a lot of liberals are angry about this. Yes, democracy and freedom are great things!!!...except when they don't cater to your ideology.

How can you possibly question the validity of a decision that was made by the people?True democracy would mean that the people could even abolish democracy if they wanted that, however a true democrat would never let that happen.

That being said, the Swiss haven't done anything they weren't entitled to yesterday and I feel scared by the headlines which read the UN and the EU would already plan sanctions. For what please? A possible infraction of the freedom of religion?

Some Muslims may feel a mosque is only a place if it has gotten a minaret but that's their personal opinion which is proveably not derivable from their holy books and rules.

A basic right is not definable at will. A man's basic rights are not necessarily infringed just because he feels like that. Every freedom must know limits, leastwise when they begin to affect another individuals rights.

I'm afraid that many Muslims from the Middle East or other places with little democratic culture can hardly understand that. They read the headlines and ask themselves how a ban of minarets and proclaimed freedom of religion can fit together because nobody has ever bothered to explain to them that no freedom is unlimited.

Unlimited freedoms is just another synonym for anarchy.

Something is wrong in this world if the people of a free state cannot exercise their free will on their territory and limit the inappropriately dominating expansion of a religious group. Yes, there were only four minarets built in Switzerland for now. But literally dozens of mosques have filed building applications and I can very well understand if the people of Bern for example do not endorse the idea of a tall minaret next to the tower of the Minster of Bern which stood there for more than 500 years already when the first Muslims settled in this city.

Heck yes - as far as I'm concerned, it's even legit to oppose minarets for aesthetical reasons.

Do I feel like I wanted a church or maybe even a cathedral in Mecca now? Not really. I'd respect any kind of non-violent opposition against such a move. Just alike I ask Muslim leaders to fvcking respect the same thing vice versa in western countries.

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 05:58 PM

Policed occidental Freedom exists because of limitations. Your freedom starts when mine ends (and vice versa).

muck

11-30-2009, 06:00 PM

Policed occidental Freedom exists because of limitations. Your freedom starts when mine ends (and vice versa).My thoughts exactly.

3rdMillhouse

11-30-2009, 06:05 PM

True democracy would mean that the people could even abolish democracy if they wanted that, however a true democrat would never let that happen.

I disagree, I believe that a true democracy must have safeguard mechanisms that should prevent abolishment of democracy through subversion and self destruction.

muck

11-30-2009, 06:07 PM

I disagree, I believe that a true democracy must have safeguard mechanisms that should prevent abolishment of democracy through subversion and self destruction.True democrats would never even consider to vote on the abolition of democracy.

That's where our problems do arise, that's where democracy fails to prevail.

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 06:09 PM

I disagree, I believe that a true democracy must have safeguard mechanisms that should prevent abolishment of democracy through subversion and self destruction.

Then it is not democracy. Just a loose statal regime.

muck: I know you meant that. Because that's the way it works in Europe.p-)

muck

11-30-2009, 06:11 PM

Then it is not democracy. Just a loose statal regime.I beg to differ. It is in fact the best of the many bad designs a democratic system can have.

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 06:16 PM

I beg to differ. It is in fact the best of the many bad designs a democratic system can have.

A democracy with a watchdog is like having a monk safeguard a Carmelite chapter. It is not a democracy.

muck

11-30-2009, 06:29 PM

A democracy with a watchdog is like having a monk safeguard a Carmelite chapter. It is not a democracy.You cannot trust in the people's ability to voluntarily restrict themselves to the natural boundaries of their freedoms, that is where theirs end and the ones of others begin.
The abscence of a watchdog means that everybody can and will do what they want, and that is not democracy but sheer anarchy.

Your logic is flawed. If it was consequently pursued, even the very existance of laws would be severely undemocratic.

If it was consequently pursued, there would be only lots of individuals but no community and no pursuit of common weal - which is in fact a state from which we're not too far away, yet the constant reminder to respect each other's rights and freedoms is able (and necessary as well) to keep us from going astray and make us accept responsibility for more than just our loved ones.

I agree that you have depicted how a true democracy would work but I am profoundly convinced that such a system is utter utopia.

KoTeMoRe

11-30-2009, 06:39 PM

You cannot trust in the people's ability to voluntarily restrict themselves to the natural boundaries of their freedoms, that is where theirs end and the ones of others begin.
The abscence of a watchdog means that everybody can and will do what they want, and that is not democracy but sheer anarchy.

Your logic is flawed. If it was consequently pursued, even the very existance of laws would be severely undemocratic.

If it was consequently pursued, there would be only lots of individuals but no community and no pursuit of common weal - which is in fact a state from which we're not too far away, yet the constant reminder to respect each other's rights and freedoms is able (and necessary as well) to keep us from going astray and make us accept responsibility for more than just our loved ones.

I agree that you have depicted how a true democracy would work but I am profoundly convinced that such a system is utter utopia.

That's why i'm not calling/cheering for it. As any tit bit scholar knows the best thing that can happen to a "real democracy" is an Eunomia as achieved in Sparta...hardly a beacon of "freedom". That's why democracy is not necessarily a peaceful nor a desirable system. That's why "Europe" has chosen Athens over Sparta, Isonomia over Eunomia. But that's another debate.

ggk

11-30-2009, 08:53 PM

what i learnt is this.

in swiss the minaret have no use since the muezzin dont actually perform azzan loudly anyway.

these minaret are actually an add on to an existing building, which as we seen in the picture...ugly.

arabic revivalism is dead, muslim should embrace modernism or post modernism..... ironically they can learn some post modernist mosque from iran and iraq (ok maybe not iraq all of the modern mosque was destroyed or demolished)

Its swiss not dubai..... not an islamic country.

that said.

banning minarets are useless, architect always have ways to bend rules and regulation... im afraid if this is passed it will be a start of something bigger.

ggk

11-30-2009, 09:02 PM

SBL

11-30-2009, 09:05 PM

banning minarets are useless, architect always have ways to bend rules and regulation... im afraid if this is passed it will be a start of something bigger.
...such as?

Evolv5

11-30-2009, 09:07 PM

Zarak

11-30-2009, 09:08 PM

...such as?

Zoning laws.

OH NOES.

ggk

11-30-2009, 09:11 PM

...such as?

Zoning laws.

OH NOES.

close....i was about to say ...well yes zoning laws.....

SBL

11-30-2009, 09:13 PM

close....i was about to say ...well yes zoning laws.....
Gee, that'd be a real tragedy.

ggk

11-30-2009, 09:14 PM

Gee, that'd be a real tragedy.

i dont know...it seems if a polititian can propose a vote..and the people voted..anything can happen.....

Zarak

11-30-2009, 09:18 PM

i dont know...it seems if a polititian can propose a vote..and the people voted..anything can happen.....

Yeah, democracy is pretty scary.

California Joe

11-30-2009, 09:24 PM

AK-Lover

11-30-2009, 09:31 PM

The majority Swiss spoke and let their view be known. If you don't like it too bad it's their country and everybody else needs to get the **** over it. The Swiss have my outmost respect, they have for centuries steered relatively clear of European politics and wars and built one of the most stable and prosperous countries in the world, and this in a country with THREE LANGUAGES. I am sure the Swiss are tolerant of people who come to their country to make an honest living and contribute to their society and have no problems with those people bringing their religious beliefs with them, but what I am sure they are not tolerant of is letting outside pressure and ultra-liberal European politics dictate to them that they can't draw lines that can't be crossed in their own household. And for that MAJOR respect to the Swiss!

Zarak

11-30-2009, 09:32 PM

ehhhh, nevermind

Lt-Col A. Tack

11-30-2009, 09:53 PM

To get serious for a second....Does anyone else see this as some sort of harbinger of the future? Where in 100 years or so, due to immigration, and birthrates, combined with open western inclusive societal notions, most of the world turns inward, gets polarized and turns into the Balkans?

Very thoughtful, sir. I worry that the seeds of what you predict may already be planted.

I think there are likely ways for a society to respectful and inclusive but still maintain a cultural identity. It would require 1) developing sophisticated ideological defenses, and 2) ongoing participation.

I really don't have a problem with the Swiss decision; they aren't forbidding anyone from practicing their faith.

Zarak

11-30-2009, 09:59 PM

I think there are likely ways for a society to respectful and inclusive but still maintain a cultural identity. It would require 1) developing sophisticated ideological defenses, and 2) ongoing participation.

Anything of the sort would be attacked by SPLC/ADL-types and Liberals as racist and evil. Especially in Europe.

MichaelF

11-30-2009, 10:31 PM

To get serious for a second....Does anyone else see this as some sort of harbinger of the future? Where in 100 years or so, due to immigration, and birthrates, combined with open western inclusive societal notions, most of the world turns inward, gets polarized and turns into the Balkans?

Well, if one group is open and inclusive...and another group is both expansive and closed and exclusive (upholding their own culture over that of the host society)...the latter* group is going to dominate, eventually.

*-especially if they have semi-codified rules or traditions that encourage overwriting their own social template on the original host society, once they have achieved a plurality.

Hutz

11-30-2009, 10:34 PM

TThe Swiss have my outmost respect, they have for centuries steered relatively clear of European politics and wars and built one of the most stable and prosperous countries in the world, and this in a country with THREE LANGUAGES.

Can't agree with you on that.....they have FOUR official languages. :)

As for the vote, the people voted, not the government. Yes the turn out was 50-something percent, but last time I checked, that's pretty good for a democracy.

Muzungu

11-30-2009, 10:35 PM

Kuwaiti religious scholars urge Muslim and Arab diplomats to submit formal complaint to Swiss courts

Manama, Cairo, Paris: Muslim leaders all over the world have expressed dismay over Switzerland's shock vote to ban the construction of new minarets.

Denouncing the decision, Kuwaiti religious scholars said Arab and Muslim diplomats and the Organisation of Islamic Conference should take up the issue with the Swiss authorities.

"Switzerland has always promoted respect for human rights and religious pluralism, and international law calls for respect for religious minorities. Muslim and Arab diplomats should submit a formal complaint to Swiss courts," Dr Bassam Al Shatti, head of religious studies at the University of Kuwait, said.

Egypt's Mufti Ali Juma'a said: "It [the ban] constitutes an attempt to insult the feelings of Muslims inside and outside Switzerland," adding that the move can deepen "hatred and discrimination" against Muslims.

Lebanese cleric Mohammad Hussain Fadlallah said the ban was in line with a media frenzy to portray Muslims negatively. He urged the West to seek better understanding of Islam.

Maskuri Abdullah, the head of Nahdlatul Ulama in Indonesia, which has 40 million members in the world's biggest Muslim-majority country, condemned the vote and called on followers not to be provoked by it.

In Pakistan, Khurshid Ahmad, vice-president of Jamaat-e-Islami, a political party represented in parliament, said: "This development reflects extreme Islamophobia among people in the West."

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said: "I am a bit shocked by this decision. It is an expression of intolerance and I detest intolerance. I hope the Swiss will reverse this decision quickly."

The Vatican endorsed criticism by Swiss bishops that the vote was a blow to religious freedom.

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/kuwait/vote-against-minarets-sparks-global-outrage-1.542511

still these scholars dont get it in their heads that mosques are not banned, the freedom of religion is allowed in swiss, only the damn minarets are banned!

see how these scholars are blowing things out of propotion in the name of religion (of peace & tolerance)! how their religion is a victim of western conspiracy!

im sure flags of swiss along with usa and israel will be burnt across the muslim countries! swiss cheese and chocolates will be boycotted!

SOME GGUYS ON THIS FORUM ALSO DONT GET IT!

MOSQUES ARE NOT BANNED
PRAYING IN NOT BANNED

FREEDOM OF RELIGION IS THERE IN SWISS! GET that!

0rphie

11-30-2009, 10:42 PM

therifleman

11-30-2009, 10:43 PM

The Vatican endorsed criticism by Swiss bishops that the vote was a blow to religious freedom.

ffs Islam won't let them enter/and or build a church in Mecca and they are criticizing the Swiss for dealing "a blow to religious freedom?"

Hutz

11-30-2009, 10:44 PM

Looks like PC is about to go out the window.

SBL

11-30-2009, 10:51 PM

still these scholars dont get it in their heads that mosques are not banned, the freedom of religion is allowed in swiss, only the damn minarets are banned!

see how these scholars are blowing things out of propotion in the name of religion (of peace & tolerance)! how their religion is a victim of western conspiracy!

im sure flags of swiss along with usa and israel will be burnt across the muslim countries! swiss cheese and chocolates will be boycotted!

It's profitable.

Those guys are nothing but demagogues- capitalizing on the anger and paranoia they help stoke.

Hutz

11-30-2009, 10:52 PM

Good ol religion. Where would the world be without it.

Azatavrear

11-30-2009, 10:53 PM

True democracy would mean that the people could even abolish democracy if they wanted that, however a true democrat would never let that happen......

A basic right is not definable at will. A man's basic rights are not necessarily infringed just because he feels like that. Every freedom must know limits, leastwise when they begin to affect another individuals rights.

Unlimited freedoms is just another synonym for anarchy.

Something is wrong in this world if the people of a free state cannot exercise their free will on their territory and limit the inappropriately dominating expansion of a religious group.....

Well said..........religious or not.

Until someone comes up with a better system I am sticking to Democracy because it is the best we got, with all its inherent faults.
This can not be something we take lightly as citizens of any freedom loving Nation.

My hat is off to Switzerland.

Muzungu

11-30-2009, 10:55 PM

GENEVA: A UN human rights expert warned on Monday that a Swiss referendum vote banning new minarets restricted religious freedom and violated Switzerland’s international treaty obligations.

‘I therefore urge the Swiss authorities to abide by all its international obligations and to take the necessary measures to fully protect the right to freedom of religion or belief of members of the Muslim community,’ said Asma Jahangir, UN special *******eur on freedom of religion or belief.

‘As also stated by the United Nations Human Rights Committee a month ago, such a ban is contrary to Switzerland’s obligations under international human rights law,’ the statement released by the United Nations added.
In a referendum on Sunday, more than 57 per cent of voters approved a right wing proposal to ban the construction of minarets in Switzerland.

The vote had no impact on mosques themselves or religious worship, according to the Swiss government, which had opposed the ban. (Read this you morons)!

However, Jahangir insisted that a ban marked ‘clear discrimination’ against Switzerland’s Muslim community.

‘I have deep concerns at the negative consequences that the outcome of the vote will have on the freedom of religion or belief of members of the Muslim community in Switzerland.’

‘Indeed, a ban on minarets amounts to an undue restriction of the freedom to manifest one’s religion and constitutes a clear discrimination against members of the Muslim community in Switzerland,’ she added.

The 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which Switzerland has ratified along with 164 other countries, obliges governments to protect and respect freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

The Swiss Green Party has also said that it was considering an appeal against the ban to the European Court of Human Rights.

The Swiss People’s Party, the country’s biggest political group and the only mainstream force to back the ban, warned Monday that it would rather pull out of international treaties than submit to a UN or European decision.

Although it captured some 28 per cent of the vote in the last general election, the right wing SVP cannot command a parliamentary majority on its own.

Freedom of worship is one of the cornerstones of Switzerland’s founding constitution.

http://beta.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/09-un-rep-asma-jahangir-warns-swiss-over-minaret-ban--szh-01

it is being blown out of proportions!

Henry's Fork

11-30-2009, 10:56 PM

...having said that, i live in a nation where everyone can built their own religious building without any esthetic restriction, provided they obey the by law and local authority requirement, i find it weird people can be offended and threatened by a mere tower.

Same here. But i dont have a problem with what the Swiss did, power to the people, majority won the vote. The ups and downs of democrazy.

There are Mosques here in the bay area, none of them have any minarets AFAIK, most are just halls and comercial properties turned into places of worship.

Another thing that doesnt help the Muslim's image in this hoopla, is seeing quotes like this in the media.

''The mosques are our barracks, the domes are our helmets, the minarets are our spears and the faithful are our warriors"

It freaks out the infidels. :-(

Hutz

11-30-2009, 10:56 PM

GENEVA: A UN human rights expert warned...

Since when has anyone taken the UN seriously lately? And yes, way out of proportion.

Zarak

11-30-2009, 10:58 PM

It freaks out the infidels. :-(

So does that whole "terrorism" thing. Not really sure why.

California Joe

11-30-2009, 11:02 PM

Egypt's Mufti Ali Juma'a said: "It [the ban] constitutes an attempt to insult the feelings of Muslims inside and outside Switzerland," adding that the move can deepen "hatred and discrimination" against Muslims.

"Against" or by Muslims? Insulted feelings? Really?

Lebanese cleric Mohammad Hussain Fadlallah said the ban was in line with a media frenzy to portray Muslims negatively. He urged the West to seek better understanding of Islam.

Just thinking outloud here, spitballing, how about if...I dunno...people that immigrate to other countries that offer them vastly better opportunities try to assimilate? You know like those Germans, Irish, Italians, Chinese...did here in the US...Just a thought...

Maskuri Abdullah, the head of Nahdlatul Ulama in Indonesia, which has 40 million members in the world's biggest Muslim-majority country, condemned the vote and called on followers not to be provoked by it.

Indonesia, hmmmmm, now there's a hotbed of progressive, moderate, religiosity....

In Pakistan, Khurshid Ahmad, vice-president of Jamaat-e-Islami, a political party represented in parliament, said: "This development reflects extreme Islamophobia among people in the West."

Quit scaring us with your non virgin stoning ways then. Oh yeah and tell us where the f*ck you're hiding Osama and his bigass dialysis machine.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said: "I am a bit shocked by this decision. It is an expression of intolerance and I detest intolerance. I hope the Swiss will reverse this decision quickly."

I detest your detestation. Oh look, your car is on fire in the parking lot. Maybe someone is protesting the Swiss.

The Vatican endorsed criticism by Swiss bishops that the vote was a blow to religious freedom.

That's like The New York Yankees endorsing the Boston Red Sox signing A Rod and Jeter. Highly believable.

Henry's Fork

11-30-2009, 11:03 PM

So does that whole "terrorism" thing. Not really sure why.

*Tongue in cheek*

Havent the foggiest.

Muzungu

11-30-2009, 11:04 PM

news from the 'Land of Pure' has set the ball rolling for world wide protests by how they present the news!

GENEVA: The Special *******eur on freedom of religion or belief at the Office of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (OHCHR) Asma Jahangir voiced shock on Monday at the outcome of the vote on the initiative to prohibit the construction of minarets in Switzerland, sources reported on Monday.

"I have deep concerns at the negative consequences that the outcome of the vote will have on the freedom of religion or belief of members of the Muslim community in Switzerland. (HOW?)

"Indeed, a ban on minarets amounts to an undue restriction of the freedom to manifest one's religion and constitutes a clear discrimination against the Muslim community in Switzerland," said Jahangir. (HOW?)

As also stated by OHCHR's Human Rights Committee a month ago, such a ban runs counter to Switzerland's obligations under international human rights law, she added.

"This vote reminds us that no societies are immune to religious intolerance. It is therefore necessary more than ever to continue raising awareness and educating people about religious diversity, and enabling all societies to adopt an enlightened and progressive attitude towards the beliefs of other communities," said Jahangir. (Minarets?)

Jahangir stressed that doing so will help to eliminate the grounds for irrational fears towards Muslims. (you bet?)

Unfortunately, these fears have been largely exploited in Switzerland for political purposes, she noted.

The Special *******eur emphasized that Switzerland, which has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, must protect and ensure respect for freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

"I therefore urge the Swiss authorities to abide by all their international obligations and to take the necessary measures to fully protect the right to freedom of religion or belief of members of the Muslim community," she concluded.

The current Swedish EU Presidency criticized here Monday the referendum held in Switzerland yesterday to ban minarets from mosques in the country.

"The result of the vote is a negative sign. The freedom of religion is a basic freedom no matter what belief you belong to," Tobias Billstrom Swedish minister of migration and visa policy told a press conference here after a meeting of EU justice and interior ministers.

"We are also running a certain risk because you might be building on the different contradictions of views that we have today and that is not what we are aiming for today in Europe," he said.

Billstrom said he personally believes that it is always better that decisions on architecture etc, should be taken by official bodies and institutions instead of taking a vote on it.

The outcome of Sunday's referendum, sponsored by the anti-immigrant Swiss People's Party was backed by almost 58 percent of voters.

On his part, EU justice commissioner Jacques Barrot told the joint press conference that the EU's executive body does not have to take a position on the issue, as Switzerland is not a member of the EU.

"We are talking about a democratic process which led to the taking of this decision," he said. (Got it?)

Barrot said the Swiss minister of Justice Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf who is in Brussels today fully explained that the federal Swiss government is not in favour of the result of this vote and which will not prevent Muslim citizens from having places of prayers and mosques.

The question only concerns minarets here, noted Barrot.

http://thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=92519

Hutz

11-30-2009, 11:07 PM

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said: "I am a bit shocked by this decision. It is an expression of intolerance and I detest intolerance. I hope the Swiss will reverse this decision quickly."

I detest your detestation. Oh look, your car is on fire in the parking lot. Maybe someone is protesting the Swiss.

rofl Nice.

Elbs

11-30-2009, 11:11 PM

Exactly what "right" is being infringed on here? It is not a ban on having Qurans, mosques, praying, whatever you want.

Two of my closest friends are devoted Muslims. Their mosque is...gasp...a converted office building. They receive text messages when it is time to pray.

Wow, we must be extremely intolerant here.... what, with their mosque not having a fancy tower.

ggk

11-30-2009, 11:13 PM

ffs Islam won't let them enter/and or build a church in Mecca and they are criticizing the Swiss for dealing "a blow to religious freedom?"

you mean the pope okay if muslim build mosque inside the vatican?

Hutz

11-30-2009, 11:14 PM

you mean the pope okay if muslim build mosque inside the vatican?

He probably would, seeing as how PC we are.

therifleman

11-30-2009, 11:23 PM

you mean the pope okay if muslim build mosque inside the vatican?

No. and oh, I can name a few reasons...

1) There is no room. If you haven't noticed, The Vatican is not a considerably large place. Please, mr. architect, tell me where you would put this mosque.
2)Unlike Mecca, the Vatican does not discriminate against Muslims. If you are a Muslim you can still enter the Vatican.
3) No Muslims live there, why need a mosque?

In the case of Mecca, they won't even let Chrstians into the city so don't even get me started. If they did let Christians in, I'm sure there would be room for a church if they have enough room to build this sh*t: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait_Towers

The place is in the middle of a desert for christsake.

MichaelF

11-30-2009, 11:24 PM

you mean the pope okay if muslim build mosque inside the vatican?

Nobody has asked to build a church inside Mecca or Medina (the equivalent of the Vatican), merely inside Saudi Arabia (and to build churches in other Islamic countries). DENIED.

Can you build a mosque in Italy? I saw a few, last time I was in Rome.

Can you build a church in Riyahd? Nope. Can the Copts build new churchs in Egypt? Nope.

Sauce for the goose...

ggk

11-30-2009, 11:35 PM

No. and oh, I can name a few reasons...

1) There is no room. If you haven't noticed, The Vatican is not a considerably large place. Please, mr. architect, tell me where you would put this mosque.
2)Unlike Mecca, the Vatican does not discriminate against Muslims. If you are a Muslim you can still enter the Vatican.
3) No Muslims live there, why need a mosque?

In the case of Mecca, they won't even let Chrstians into the city so don't even get me started. If they did let Christians in, I'm sure there would be room for a church if they have enough room to build this sh*t: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait_Towers

The place is in the middle of a desert for christsake.

Nobody has asked to build a church inside Mecca or Medina (the equivalent of the Vatican), merely inside Saudi Arabia (and to build churches in other Islamic countries). DENIED.

Can you build a mosque in Italy? I saw a few, last time I was in Rome.

Can you build a church in Riyahd? Nope. Can the Copts build new churchs in Egypt? Nope.

Sauce for the goose...

let me tell you the concept of mosque. You put four stick at four corner, put some clean rag inside it, you get a mosque...so space is not a problem.

well since christians are not the same with muslims, arguing how one intreprete holyness is pretty much moot.

That said all 5 billion muslim (if they actually remember Allah lol) practically face mecca 24 / 7... every minutes literally. Imagine 5 times prayer a day with the earth rotating around, you have muslim praying facing mecca every minutes nonstop... that is what i call HOLY AMAZING. Does christians have the same dedication for vatican?

now can we absorb how important Mecca to muslim..its freaking absolutely holy.

Parx400

11-30-2009, 11:37 PM

Locked like the last one in 5,4,3,2......

Henry's Fork

11-30-2009, 11:38 PM

Can you build a mosque in Italy? I saw a few, last time I was in Rome.

A huge Mosque, Moschea di Roma, about a 20 minute walk from the Vatican, IIRC. I bet you can see the Vatican from their Minaret.

Azatavrear

11-30-2009, 11:38 PM

..........There is no room. If you haven't noticed, The Vatican is not a considerably large place. Please, mr. architect, tell me where you would put this mosque.
2.

The Islamist solution to that is to build a dome with twin towers on top of the Church.........many Armenian churches were converted that way in history.

MichaelF

11-30-2009, 11:39 PM

now can we absorb how important Mecca to muslim..its freaking absolutely holy.

We aren't talking about Mecca (City/Shrine). We are talking about Saudi Arabia (Nation State).

Christians aren't allowed to build Churches in Islamic territory.
The reverse is not true.

The Islamic World demands courtesies that they themselves will not extend to others.

ggk

11-30-2009, 11:42 PM

We aren't talking about Mecca (City/Shrine). We are talking about Saudi Arabia (Nation State).

Christians aren't allowed to build Churches in Islamic territory.
The reverse is not true.

The Islamic World demands courtesies that they themselves will not extend to others.

ah so the swiss and the vatican want to behave like the saudis...now i get it.

Hutz

11-30-2009, 11:43 PM

Locked like the last one in 5,4,3,2......

As long as this stays civil, don't see why it would be locked. So far, so good.

Derbedeu

11-30-2009, 11:44 PM

That said all 5 billion muslim (if they actually remember Allah lol)

Someone's exaggerating....

MichaelF

11-30-2009, 11:45 PM

ah so the swiss and the vatican want to behave like the saudis...now i get it.

Can you build a mosque in Italy? In Switzerland?

Can you build a church (synagogue/ashram/temple) in Saudi Arabia?

Can you build a church in Egypt*?

Seems to me that the Italians and Swiss are saints, compared to any of their Islamic counterparts...

*-technically, you can...with a permit. Permits authorized in the last 50 years can be counted on one hand. Odd, that.

MichaelF

11-30-2009, 11:47 PM

ah so the swiss and the vatican want to behave like the saudis...now i get it.

To expand, you have failed to respond to the following:

The Islamic World demands courtesies that they themselves will not extend to others.

rhino

11-30-2009, 11:48 PM

democracy has spokenwoot

and some have problem with that:roll:
sooo when is Geneve going to ask Switzerland to change its flag? a white cross in red field has to be really provoking to some minorities

MichaelF

11-30-2009, 11:52 PM

Given the fact that....well, even the most tolerant of the Islamic nations of the World are only "tolerant" when compared to, say, Francoist Spain....can you blame anyone in the West (or, indeed, East) for being a little leery of letting the camel's nose in under the tent (pardon the expression)?

Most muslim folks are perfectly ordinary and pleasant. Political Islam (the group state deriving from the islamic philosophy), OTOH, is not a very cheery entity...and minarets are more a political than a spiritual statement, especially in Europe, and especially when they do the trick of making sure they are taller and more imposing than the church or synagogue that is already in-place.

ggk

11-30-2009, 11:55 PM

Someone's exaggerating....

i know.. its hard to understand sarcasm.

Can you build a mosque in Italy? In Switzerland?

Can you build a church (synagogue/ashram/temple) in Saudi Arabia?

Can you build a church in Egypt*?

Seems to me that the Italians and Swiss are saints, compared to any of their Islamic counterparts...

*-technically, you can...with a permit. Permits authorized in the last 50 years can be counted on one hand. Odd, that.

To expand, you have failed to respond to the following:

The Islamic World demands courtesies that they themselves will not extend to others

ah great...The Saudi Arabia is THE ISLAMIC WORLD. when is this going to end.

q: where is the home of the third largest reclining Buddha in the world?
q: where is the home of the the world's tallest statue of Murugan, ?

hint its an islamic country.

SBL

11-30-2009, 11:57 PM

q: where is the home of the third largest reclining Buddha in the world?

Definitely not Afghanistan.

rhino

11-30-2009, 11:58 PM

i know.. its hard to understand sarcasm.

shouldnt use that for sarcasm when conversion of entire world and anihilation of anyone who stands in the way is a main goal of some fanatics

Derbedeu

11-30-2009, 11:59 PM

now can we absorb how important Mecca to muslim..its freaking absolutely holy.

About Mecca, I find it ridiculously close-minded to not even allow non-Muslims into the city. Islam, as with every other religion on this planet, is ultimately more than just a religion. It is a testament of humanity and a facet of our global culture, just as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. As such, it should be shared with all people based on that alone. I myself am an Orthodox, yet I have visited the Vatican because it fascinates me from a historical/cultural/artistic/and even spiritual view. For the same reasons I would like to visit the Mahabodhi temple, the Wailing Wall, the Dome of the Rock, etc. Yes, there are restrictions (for example I had no idea until I actually showed up that shorts and sandals were not allowed in St. Peter's Basilica even though it was 99 degrees Fahrenheit when I visited), but I can respect those restrictions and still see it. That is not the case with Mecca. Which is a real shame.

NSX-R

12-01-2009, 12:02 AM

ah so the swiss and the vatican want to behave like the saudis...now i get it.

Your comprehension skills are sorely lacking. He meant that Saudi Arabia should permit Christians to build churches on Islamic territory, just as Westerners allow Muslims to build mosques in their countries. Pretty much every country in the world permits the construction of any kind of religious temples, except Islamic nations. Not a difficult concept...

ggk

12-01-2009, 12:02 AM

Definitely not Afghanistan.

depending on the source..they actually found it in bamiyan? anyway its either third or the fourth depending on the source...but its freaking huge. Now thats tollerance.

shouldnt use that for sarcasm when conversion of entire world and anihilation of anyone who stands in the way is a main goal of some fanatics

We only want europe and amerikka thats all ..the rest of the world are safe , i can assured you.

MichaelF

12-01-2009, 12:02 AM

ah great...The Saudi Arabia is THE ISLAMIC WORLD.

Egypt. Syria. Pakistan. Jordan. Yemen. The UAE. Iran. Oh, the Sudan. Qatar. Oman. The list goes on. So, yes, pretty much the entire Islamic world. I just pick on the Kingdom, because they are the most egregious.

q: where is the home of the third largest reclining Buddha in the world?
q: where is the home of the the world's tallest statue of Murugan, ?

hint its an islamic country.

We were discussing historical monuments? No, I don't believe so.

Moving the goalposts won't help you.

I reiterate:

The Islamic World demands courtesies that they themselves will not extend to others

They demand to build mosques and expand their religion into new territories. They will not allow others to do the same in their territory. This is nondebateable. It's an established fact. It's the ultimate one-way street.

ggk

12-01-2009, 12:03 AM

About Mecca, I find it ridiculously close-minded to not even allow non-Muslims into the city. Islam, as with every other religion on this planet, is ultimately more than just a religion. It is a testament of humanity and a facet of our global culture, just as Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. As such, it should be shared with all people based on that alone. I myself am an Orthodox, yet I have visited the Vatican because it fascinates me from a historical/cultural/artistic/and even spiritual view. For the same reasons I would like to visit the Mahabodhi temple, the Wailing Wall, the Dome of the Rock, etc. Yes, there are restrictions (for example I had no idea until I actually showed up that shorts and sandals were not allowed in St. Peter's Basilica even though it was 99 degrees Fahrenheit when I visited), but I can respect those restrictions and still see it. That is not the case with Mecca. Which is a real shame.

you can always covert to islam...try it.

Mr.K

12-01-2009, 12:04 AM

you can always covert to islam...try it.

But once muslim can you go back?

ggk

12-01-2009, 12:07 AM

We were discussing historical monuments? No, I don't believe so.

Moving the goalposts won't help you.

I reiterate:

They demand to build mosques and expand their religion into new territories. They will not allow others to do the same in their territory. This is nondebateable. It's an established fact. It's the ultimate one-way street.

im going to lunch... ill edit this later.

one thing..those are not historical monument..million of non muslim pray there....so this statement 'They will not allow others to do the same in their territory' are not true.

rhino

12-01-2009, 12:14 AM

We only want europe and amerikka thats all ..the rest of the world are safe , i can assured you.

ggk, I know you, and I know you are joking but there is things that shouldnt be joked about, like the above

MichaelF

12-01-2009, 12:15 AM

im going to lunch... ill edit this later.

one thing..those are not historical monument..million of non muslim pray there....so this statement 'They will not allow others to do the same in their territory' are not true.

Incorrect.

Since we are talking about building new houses of worship, not simply worshipping at extant structures....you're moving the goalposts to give yourself a defensible argument which you do not otherwise have.

Lazy Lob

12-01-2009, 12:17 AM

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9644/peterbrookescarto653049.jpg

Muzungu

12-01-2009, 12:25 AM

ah so the swiss and the vatican want to behave like the saudis...now i get it.

so how do saudis behave?

pls explain the meaning of your sentence?

Muzungu

12-01-2009, 12:26 AM

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9644/peterbrookescarto653049.jpg

are cuckoo clocks anti-islamic?

ggk

12-01-2009, 01:22 AM

But once muslim can you go back?

according to the stereotype, beheaded...but yeah you can repent back.

ggk, I know you, and I know you are joking but there is things that shouldnt be joked about, like the above

too cold? im sorry... wont happen again.

Incorrect.

Since we are talking about building new houses of worship, not simply worshipping at extant structures....you're moving the goalposts to give yourself a defensible argument which you do not otherwise have.

i can only point the example of my country..and islamic country nevertherless.

The State Of Selangor Darul Ehsan (this only one state from all thirteen states and three Federal Territories,)

Total population- 4.3 million peoples.

Muslims- 2.5 mil
Mosque - 259 nos.

Budhist- 1.3 mil.
Budhist temple- 1,015 nos

Hindus - 647,000
Hindu temples - 810 nos not inclusive the small one.

Christians - 50,000
church - 27 nos.

so how do saudis behave?

pls explain the meaning of your sentence?

you should know how they behave....like the sith lord.

are cuckoo clocks anti-islamic?

i dont get it either

hulaku

12-01-2009, 01:41 AM

A bit off topic

Eggs are thrown at the Shadow Minister for Community Cohesion and Social Action, Baroness Warsi, when she visited Luton.

Baroness Warsi was taking part in a walkabout in the Muslim Bury Park area of Luton when she was confronted by a group of protesters.

The male protesters accused her of not being a proper Muslim and supporting the death of Muslims in Afghanistan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8387331.stm?ls

The Islamists of Londonistan coming soon to a European city near youp-)

ggk

12-01-2009, 01:48 AM

A bit off topic
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/8387331.stm?ls

The Islamists of Londonistan coming soon to a European city near youp-)

nice flame man

nasiru

12-01-2009, 01:51 AM

^ wow , i bet you have some kind of RSS system for any muslim related news(refering to hulaku). Anyway at least the swiss will get some better idea of the minaret rather than the fact given to them by the people that started the referendum .

pg_ord

12-01-2009, 01:58 AM

Soldat_Américain

12-01-2009, 01:59 AM

ah so the swiss and the vatican want to behave like the saudis...now i get it.

1st the Vatican can do whatever the fvck it wants, there will never be Muslims living there...an Ayatollah or some high up/ well respected cleric may receive an invitation to come but his stay will no be long enough to be considered having lived there.

Do you need a minaret to send the call to prayer, no you do not. Whether it is cultural or not it does not matter, the Swiss are not restricting the building of mosques but of a specific feature...if you think not having one makes it not a mosque then you can shovel **** in Louisiana during the next world war for all I care.

hulaku

12-01-2009, 02:00 AM

nice flame man

It was not intended as a flame. I apologise if it seems that way.

It just highlighted the fact that these extreme elements do not even spare a lady who represents their faith and pelt her with eggs. If you dont like the country you are living in please feel free to go where ever you came from.

It was the same people who called the British troops "murderers" and "baby killers" when they came back. You remember that dont you?

The Swiss have at least taken a step in the direction, I think, of ensuring that, some thing like that doesnt happen in their country.

hulaku

12-01-2009, 02:04 AM

^ wow , i bet you have some kind of RSS system for any muslim related news(refering to hulaku).

No sir, I dont.

For the record RSS is not perpetrating terror in India or any part of the world.
:)

He was referring to RSS streaming feeds I guess and not the RSS.

The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (Hindi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi_language): राष्ट्रीय स्वयंसेवक संघ, English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language): National Volunteers Organization), also known as the Sangh or the RSS, is a volunteer organization in India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh#cite_note-Andersen_1987_111-0). It was founded by Dr. K. B. Hedgewar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._B._Hedgewar), a doctor from Nagpur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagpur), as a cultural organisation in pre-independent India, with the aim of forming an organization to provide social services for the betterment of India.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh#cite_note-Andersen_1987_111-0).

Some critics have referred to the RSS as a Hindu nationalist organisation.[/URL] Many have also accused it of supporting militancy, which the RSS has vehemently denied and protested, often going to the extent of suing them in the court of law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh#cite_note-news.bbc.co.uk-8) Accusations have led to the RSS being banned thrice by the Government of India but it has been acquitted each time due to lack of evidence.[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh#cite_note-Andersen_1987_111-0)

Ought Six

12-01-2009, 02:04 AM

h:
"The Swiss have at least taken a step in the direction, I think, of ensuring that, some thing like that doesnt happen in their country."Exactly the opposite, the Swiss have taken a step that will help promote that kind of radicalism in what has been the most moderate and peaceful Muslim community in Europe. Religious bigotry pisses off those it is aimed at. They will be peaceful no longer, thanks to the stupidity of the Swiss in doing this. They really shot themselves in the pecker.

pg_ord

12-01-2009, 02:06 AM

No sir, I dont.

:)

He was referring to RSS streaming feeds I guess and not the RSS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh

:oops: .........p-)

nasiru

12-01-2009, 02:09 AM

For the record RSS is not perpetrating terror in India or any part of the world.
For the record not all the muslims in the world is perpetrating terror in India or any part of the world. :roll:

The banning is only give the minority with extremism issue (if there is any) in the muslim community in swiss to have their reason to be violent while the peaceful muslim in swiss that just like their mosque minarets ,disappointed and sad .

edit: just read that pg_ord misunderstands the term RSS eh?.. p-)

hulaku

12-01-2009, 02:10 AM

h:Exactly the opposite, the Swiss have taken a step that will help promote that kind of radicalism in what has been the most moderate and peaceful Muslim community in Europe. Religious bigotry pisses off those it is aimed at. They will be peaceful no longer, thanks to the stupidity of the Swiss in doing this. They really shot themselves in the pecker.

And pray tell me what policies had the British Government enacted against these people that they have become radicalised to the point of booing soldiers of their country coming back from war?

mashkur

12-01-2009, 02:11 AM

No. and oh, I can name a few reasons...

1) There is no room. If you haven't noticed, The Vatican is not a considerably large place. Please, mr. architect, tell me where you would put this mosque.
2)Unlike Mecca, the Vatican does not discriminate against Muslims. If you are a Muslim you can still enter the Vatican.
3) No Muslims live there, why need a mosque?

In the case of Mecca, they won't even let Chrstians into the city so don't even get me started. If they did let Christians in, I'm sure there would be room for a church if they have enough room to build this sh*t: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait_Towers

The place is in the middle of a desert for christsake.
The question is will Vatican allow a place of worship for any other ppl from other religion. Mecca is a sacred place just like Vatican is a sacred place for Christianity. Minarat is a symbol of Mosque just like the Dome/Corss for Church. Its not going to destroy the Swiss if the mosque has minarat. If they have any issue regarding call for prayer then they should talk with the Muslim community and work this thing out rather imposing a rule.

Many Muslims have found Europe to be a far better place than their home country (ex India, Afghanistan, Burma..) and they are thankful for that. In doing so they are bringing their culture and religion. Best thing is to do is to accommodate through dialog and mutual understanding. You not expect the rest of the world to adapt western culture and at the same time reject culture of other people.

rhino

12-01-2009, 02:11 AM

h:Exactly the opposite, the Swiss have taken a step that will help promote that kind of radicalism in what has been the most moderate and peaceful Muslim community in Europe. Religious bigotry pisses off those it is aimed at. They will be peaceful no longer, thanks to the stupidity of the Swiss in doing this. They really shot themselves in the pecker.

so what you say is you cant win with those people, you accept them and they will change you from within using your own laws, you shunn them and they will radicalize and terrorize you into accepting the change you try to avoid in first place?

junglejim

12-01-2009, 02:12 AM

1st the Vatican can do whatever the fvck it wants, there will never be Muslims living there...an Ayatollah or some high up/ well respected cleric may receive an invitation to come but his stay will no be long enough to be considered having lived there.

Do you need a minaret to send the call to prayer, no you do not. Whether it is cultural or not it does not matter, the Swiss are not restricting the building of mosques but of a specific feature...if you think not having one makes it not a mosque then you can shovel **** in Louisiana during the next world war for all I care.

woah!!! Relax there GI Joe, the guy is actually not a fan of Minarets if you read his earlier posts.

ggk

12-01-2009, 02:12 AM

It was not intended as a flame. I apologise if it seems that way.

It just highlighted the fact that these extreme elements do not even spare a lady who represents their faith and pelt her with eggs. If you dont like the country you are living in please feel free to go where ever you came from.

It was the same people who called the British troops "murderers" and "baby killers" when they came back. You remember that dont you?

The Swiss have at least taken a step in the direction, I think, of ensuring that, some thing like that doesnt happen in their country.

oh come on..its about a minaret. ..... dont derailed too far stay focus man.

I agree the minaret are of no use, my point is its only part of a mosque architecture...not that a mosque must have minaret..but after seeing all the picture of the adhoc minaret they built ..i say ban it (adding new minaret to existing building)

or maybe muslim should not be too jumpy about it..be humble and learn from the prophet Muhammad...... look! no minaret! lol.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7750/277362943507e35dd5e1.jpg

plus this my view on the minaret.. i dont want to debate this futher. ... good luck.
#119 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4592521&postcount=119) #36 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4590761&postcount=36)

junglejim

12-01-2009, 02:14 AM

oh come on..its about a minaret. ..... dont derailed too far stay focus man.

I agree the minaret are of no use, my point is its only part of a mosque architecture...not that a mosque must have minaret..but after seeing all the picture of the adhoc minaret they built ..i say ban it (adding new minaret to existing building)

or maybe muslim should not be too jumpy about it..be humble and learn from the prophet Muhammad...... look! no minaret! lol.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7750/277362943507e35dd5e1.jpg

Pfff, you know they were just waiting for the building code to be revised on that image you're showing.p-)

pg_ord

12-01-2009, 02:15 AM

For the record not all the muslims in the world is perpetrating terror in India or any part of the world. :roll:

The banning is only give the minority with extremism issue (if there is any) in the muslim community in swiss to have their reason to be violent while the peaceful muslim in swiss that just like their mosque minarets ,disappointed and sad .
When did I say that?
We have problems between various communities in India.....but it pisses me off when these Islamic republics start lecturing Indians about minority rights.......I wish these so called Islamic clerics/apologists also advice Saudi Arabia about it. :roll: ..... instead of jumping on Swiss for a law, why not start off with ummah brothers?

AroundTheCorner

12-01-2009, 02:17 AM

Looks like the crowd moved from one thread to another. What a show.

nasiru

12-01-2009, 02:18 AM

But i like my minarets :'( . If the reason for banning is good rather than "its the sign of conquest of Muslims,blablabla" maybe the muslim community will accept it .
Is there any tower or traditional architecture of swiss that similar to the minaret ,maybe the swiss could help design the minaret so it could blend in "swiss style" ?

rhino

12-01-2009, 02:21 AM

Ought Six

12-01-2009, 02:23 AM

h:
"And pray tell me what policies had the British Government enacted against these people that they have become radicalised to the point of booing soldiers of their country coming back from war?"The British Muslim community already has a large number of radicalized people, and has for quite a while. The Swiss did not, but will now thanks to this dumb-azz move. The Jihadis must be rubbing their hands with glee. They have not had any real success in Switzerland before. Muslims there were content and well integrated. That is now over.

nasiru

12-01-2009, 02:23 AM

@rhino
lol . You really don't like the minaret too ?

rhino

12-01-2009, 02:26 AM

@rhino
lol . You really don't like the minaret too ?

no, its the issue of forcing secular sociaties back into being religiusly polarized
europe went throught that already 400yers ago, no need to do it again

Sootan

12-01-2009, 02:27 AM

put a white cross on top?

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/441/swiss.jpg

That would make it look like a hospital tower, not a mosque's minaret.

rhino

12-01-2009, 02:30 AM

That would make it look like a hospital tower, not a mosque's minaret.

what is a hospital tower? never seen one

ggk

12-01-2009, 02:32 AM

...where is the minaret?

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4484/12763image1.jpg

thats not minaret..thats art.

nasiru

12-01-2009, 02:34 AM

no, its the issue of forcing secular sociaties back into being religiusly polarized
europe went throught that already 400yers ago, no need to do it again

It just a little tower that completes what the muslims think a nice mosque for them . You just thinking it too hard by saying it will repeat the european history.I take it as the swiss don't have other traditional architecture elements to contribute to the mosque building? p-) . It just like mosques in china where they incorporate local building element.

rhino

12-01-2009, 02:37 AM

It just a little tower that completes what the muslims think a nice mosque for them . You just thinking it too hard by saying it will repeat the european history.I take it as the swiss don't have other traditional architecture elements to contribute to the mosque building? p-) . It just like mosques in china where they incorporate local building element.

why should Swiss feel obliged to contribute to the mosque's appearance?
being a predominatly historically a christian country, which you can judge from their coat of arms. ever heard of Swiss Guards and what they do?

ggk

12-01-2009, 02:37 AM

It just a little tower that completes what the muslims think a nice mosque for them . You just thinking it too hard by saying it will repeat the european history.I take it as the swiss don't have other traditional architecture elements to contribute to the mosque building? p-) . It just like mosques in china where they incorporate local building element.

vernacular architecture. The problem is islam is fairly new in Switzerland... so how to translate the local architecture into mosque design. The cant ..they have to import revivalism into the design.

..and some people just think too much.

Sootan

12-01-2009, 02:38 AM

what is a hospital tower? never seen one

Neither have I. Hypothetically speaking, a tower situated in the close proximity of or adjacent to a hospital, perhaps marked by a white cross. Cause I've never seen a minaret bearing a white cross either.

SBL

12-01-2009, 02:44 AM

Neither have I. Hypothetically speaking, a tower situated in the close proximity of or adjacent to a hospital, perhaps marked by a white cross. Cause I've never seen a minaret bearing a white cross either.
If it were a hospital tower it would probably be marked by a red cross.

dttk0009

12-01-2009, 02:45 AM

I pretty much agree with ggk.

nasiru

12-01-2009, 02:55 AM

why should Swiss feel obliged to contribute to the mosque's appearance?
being a predominatly historically a christian country, which you can judge from their coat of arms. ever heard of Swiss Guards and what they do?

Well, im just saying that by incorporating swiss design , it will make the muslim community feels accepted by their new host. Swiss Guard is the pope's army/guards right ? I watched documentary about vatican that only Swiss men can join them . Sorry if I'm wrong.

Sootan

12-01-2009, 03:00 AM

I pretty much agree with ggk.

A minaret is just an architecture. A nice to have, but not really obligatory.

That said, banning it outright would be viewed by many as a challenge to the faith, a challenge that must be met.

hulaku

12-01-2009, 03:01 AM

Soldat_Américain

12-01-2009, 03:02 AM

Considering that you can't declare a referendum unconstitutional as it is a vote of the people, then there is no challenge...now go away. They can move.

dttk0009

12-01-2009, 03:03 AM

A minaret is just an architecture. A nice to have, but not really obligatory.

That said, banning it outright would be viewed by many as a challenge to the faith, a challenge that must be met.
Then I suggest they find a democratic, peaceful way to meet it. If it really irks them that much they could move to a country that allows minarets. I don't see the big deal?

Sootan

12-01-2009, 03:15 AM

Then I suggest they find a democratic, peaceful way to meet it. If it really irks them that much they could move to a country that allows minarets. I don't see the big deal?

Personally I don't think it's a big deal either. Minaret is obsolete with regard to effectively announcing a call to prayer. But FWIW minaret is also another symbolism of Islam, and by banning it a relatively non-issue suddenly becomes another hot potato. The ban is making the minaret another symbol of resistance/deviance, if I may call it that way. It will be a sore point, for sure.

Sootan

12-01-2009, 03:16 AM

And how exactly do you propose that this challenge be met?

Peacefully?

dttk0009

12-01-2009, 03:20 AM

Personally I don't think it's a big deal either. Minaret is obsolete with regard to effectively announcing a call to prayer. But FWIW minaret is also another symbolism of Islam, and by banning it a relatively non-issue suddenly becomes another hot potato. The ban is making the minaret another symbol of resistance/deviance, if I may call it that way. It will be a sore point, for sure.
Maybe it will. Surely this action will cause outrage amongst unaffected Muslims around the world. Swiss flags will be burnt and people will get injured, some maybe even killed, over this decision. There are many reasons why Europeans fear the sudden change they see happening around them and I completely understand why this vote was passed, though I'm not going to get into it now.

ggk

12-01-2009, 03:20 AM

And how exactly do you propose that this challenge be met?

i can show you.

behold.

on the right Minaret, on the left Not Minaret

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2165/33469297.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/i/33469297.jpg/)
By hasrulggk (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/hasrulggk)

hahah!

Lazy Lob

12-01-2009, 03:29 AM

according to the stereotype, beheaded...but yeah you can repent back.

too cold? im sorry... wont happen again.

i can only point the example of my country..and islamic country nevertherless.

The State Of Selangor Darul Ehsan (this only one state from all thirteen states and three Federal Territories,)

Total population- 4.3 million peoples.

Muslims- 2.5 mil
Mosque - 259 nos.

Budhist- 1.3 mil.
Budhist temple- 1,015 nos

Hindus - 647,000
Hindu temples - 810 nos not inclusive the small one.

Christians - 50,000
church - 27 nos.

you should know how they behave....like the sith lord.

i dont get it either

What you forget to mention is that Christianty was established by the Nestorians and Persians in Malaysia 5 to 6 centuries before islam arrived. Switzerland has no such islamic history and forcing such a rate of change on a country together with wahhabi dollars is no way to go about it.

Xaito

12-01-2009, 03:29 AM

ggk

12-01-2009, 03:34 AM

What you forget to mention is that Christianty was established by the Nestorians and Persians in Malaysia 5 to 6 centuries before islam arrived. Switzerland has no such islamic history and forcing such a rate of change on a country together with wahhabi dollars is no way to go about it.

well i agree..

but isnt it to much to say muslim nation doesnt tollerate at all?

Lazy Lob

12-01-2009, 03:37 AM

Forgot.

Budhism and Hinduism were in Malaysia much before the arrival of islam as well. Budhism as much as 17 centuries before.

Sootan

12-01-2009, 03:41 AM

Maybe it will. Surely this action will cause outrage amongst unaffected Muslims around the world. Swiss flags will be burnt and people will get injured, some maybe even killed, over this decision. There are many reasons why Europeans fear the sudden change they see happening around them and I completely understand why this vote was passed, though I'm not going to get into it now.

Yeah, but I don't think it will reach the level of outrage like the Danish cartoon or the Fitna movie on the street. Plenty of mosques without minarets anyway.

Sootan

12-01-2009, 03:42 AM

Forgot.

Budhism and Hinduism were in Malaysia much before the arrival of islam as well. Budhism as much as 17 centuries before.

Well, yeah. So?

hulaku

12-01-2009, 03:52 AM

Well, yeah. So?

That was in response to GGKs post where he had mentioned that inspite of being a majority Muslim nation Malaysia has a number of Hindu Temples, Buddhists Temples and Christian Churches.

He pointed out that all these religions existed in modern day Malaysia before the birth of Islam.

Sootan

12-01-2009, 03:56 AM

hulaku

12-01-2009, 04:13 AM

Well yeah, obviously. So?

Read post #224.

ggk

12-01-2009, 04:15 AM

That was in response to GGKs post where he had mentioned that inspite of being a majority Muslim nation Malaysia has a number of Hindu Temples, Buddhists Temples and Christian Churches.

He pointed out that all these religions existed in modern day Malaysia before the birth of Islam.

The malay (me..wait im Javanese..pretty much the same though) in the Nusantara started as pagan, we pray to trees, big rock or mountain and river. Then Hindu and Budha came... mostly peacefully through trade or some times by conquest.

Then Christianity came about the same time with islam or maybe earlier pretty much through peacefull trade too.

These great empire from the Pattani to to Srivijaya raise and fell. Some fell while they are still hindu some fell while they are still muslim.

anyway most of nusantara in the end embrace islam, full heartedly...except the Balinese, some part of the philipines, the timorese..and the kalimantan people.

Now if we learn history the Chinese and the Indian (from India) immigrant that currently resides malaysia came a lot later. Oh in the early day the clash between the three main race are quite violent..especially between the malay and the chinese.

mainly because we and everyone doesnt assimilates, our culture doesnt mixed we clash with each other because of our differences. We KILL EACH OTHERS.

yet in the end all we did is just let it be. Quite simple really. And its end rather good and peacefully. Yeah you can drag in the racial contract if you want too...but hey it works. Thats the reason, we tollerate.

junglejim

12-01-2009, 04:16 AM

Read post #224.

Actually his reply helps GGK's stance that not all Islamic Nations have the intollerance of say the Arabs.

Lazy Lob

12-01-2009, 04:16 AM

Well, yeah. So?

You're coming across as a rather obtuse fellow.

HellToupee

12-01-2009, 04:23 AM

quite possible if the demands some day go beyond aesthetics and the ones doing the demands have the power to fight for it.

Well its not based on aesthetics, its fear of a minority and a the minaret is just a symbol, minaret is not limited to a middle eastern architecture, nether do europeans or westerners in general care about enforcing a uniform architecture across society it would be like defining what art is allowed.

Swe_Rickard

12-01-2009, 04:38 AM

In sweden we had pretty much no immigrants at all up until the 20th century. Then in the 1950s we had a lot of people from countries like Finland, Yugoslavia, Italy and Greece, they came to work and they pretty much accepted the Swedish culture and the way we are living up here.

Today's immigrants from MENA countries are a hell of a lot different. They demand everything(sharialaws and building mosques, welfare money) but give nothing back. They stand for a big part of the criminal violence in Sweden and a lot of them don't wont to be a part of Sweden or Europe, they wont to live like they to in the middle east but with our welfare.

Democracy has prevailed in Switzerland. If we wont our own culture to survive we cant sell it out on the altar of multiculturalism.
I dont want European culture to dominate in non european contries that would also be a sin. No more crusades, religious or cultural, preserve whatever scraps of culture and tradition we have left from our old and beatuiful mother Europe.

IanSolo

12-01-2009, 05:09 AM

Muzungu

12-01-2009, 05:24 AM

if some one comes to live my home, he lives by my rules, he doesnt impose his rules on me in my house!

so thats whay swiss are doing, correcting things in their own house!

ggk

12-01-2009, 05:28 AM

that analogy are too simplistic

the_Wicked

12-01-2009, 05:43 AM

that analogy are too simplistic

All analogies are simplistic in their nature (that's why analogies are used actually, to simplify things), but this one fits to a T.

JJHH

12-01-2009, 05:53 AM

if some one comes to live my home, he lives by my rules, he doesnt impose his rules on me in my house!

so thats whay swiss are doing, correcting things in their own house!

Very well said..

Derbedeu

12-01-2009, 05:58 AM

Interestingly enough, mosques in China tend to usually follow Chinese architecture. The following is a Chinese mosque "minaret":

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/914/chinesestyleminaretofth.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/chinesestyleminaretofth.jpg/)

If mosques in Europe drew from European architecture, perhaps such a ban would not have drawn such support.

Swe_Rickard

12-01-2009, 07:03 AM

that analogy are too simplistic
Why is that ?
Christian Europeans built the welfare in Europe with blood sweat and tears(i know other people got exploited and enslaved on the way but all people and cultures have their darkside).
Why should we have to adapt to people who come from outside of our continent our cultural sphere??
We already gave them a part of our welfare and all other benefits in our countries. We never forced them to move here.
And if you start to talk about every immigrant coming from hardtimes and warzones. Explain why not every Japanese and German family's didn't move after the second world war. And if they move did they demand that their new homeland adapt to them??

And some people talk about how we need people to come and work for us in Sweden because we are getting lazy and old. If that is so why go to Somalia and Iraq for workers when we can go to eastern parts of Germany or eastern Europe where they a lot of unemployed young people willing to work.

toki

12-01-2009, 08:04 AM

What i would like to hear from a Swiss and noone else is if it can be overturned by the highest court as unconstitutional?

How does it work there? Verfassungsgericht etc.?

I mean, for example how did the women get their voting rights in Switzerland? Not because the men voted for it in a referendum. Not stirring anyhting, just a simple question.

edit:http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesverfassung_(Schweiz)
wiki says something hard to believe, but probably true.

Die Bundesverfassung der Schweiz weist im Vergleich mit anderen Verfassungen eine Eigenheit auf: Sie sieht keine Verfassungsgerichtsbarkeit für Bundesgesetze vor, d. h. von der Bundesversammlung erlassenen Gesetze müssen vom Bundesgericht oder anderen Gerichten auch bei Verfassungswidrigkeit angewandt werden.
Unique to the swiss constitution: Democratically passed laws have to be applied, even when they contradict the constitution. No court can overrule it as unconstitutional. Democracy over constitutional state.

Interesting, seriously.

Imagine 51% in the US could overrule the constitution and ban guns.
That's a tough implication.

Briggs

12-01-2009, 09:54 AM

Maybe because western countries beleive in freedom of religion?

Surely banning minarets is seriously hampering with their 'freedom of religion' is it...no more mosques, no more right to perform their religious ceremonies, nore more right to slaughter animals in a religious manner...oh wait. It's only the little towers that are being banned...then how does that threaten their 'freedom of religion'?

Briggs

12-01-2009, 10:06 AM

Actually his reply helps GGK's stance that not all Islamic Nations have the intollerance of say the Arabs.

Depends. In what manner did this 'Islamic majority' in malaysia come about? Demographics? Conversion? Opression?

hsh2

12-01-2009, 10:12 AM

And some people talk about how we need people to come and work for us in Sweden because we are getting lazy and old. If that is so why go to Somalia and Iraq for workers when we can go to eastern parts of Germany or eastern Europe where they a lot of unemployed young people willing to work.

Exactly.

This whole superalienation was never about economic interests. Had it been so we would have invited people from Eastern Europe, but no they were not "good" enough, they were too "classic".

Just ask Mona Sahlin and her ilk.

Btw who is more educated or skilled?

The average Iraqi or Bulgarian?

It's really a no brainer.

Not because the men voted for it in a referendum.

Actually yes, because males voted for it in a referendum. No idea were you got that idea from.

Imagine 51% in the US could overrule the constitution and ban guns.
That's a tough implication.I can't remember you ever caring for or supporting the 2nd Amendment nor anything else the American right stands for. Is it a lame attempt at gaining support?