Ten Commandments or Bill of Rights

[Ordie]

As an American, which do you value the most:

The Ten Commandments or the Bill of Rights

[Roids]

Anyone who doesn't prefer the Bill of Rights over the guide to be a slave to a imaginary being is not an American.

[dttk0009]

Anyone who doesn't prefer the Bill of Rights over the guide to be a slave to a imaginary being is not an American.
Many would beg to differ. I'm pretty interested to see the results of this poll.

[brainplay]

Weird question. One is religion which reaches beyond nationality. The other is the basis for being an American and safeguards the right to practice the first.

Loaded question.

[LineDoggie]

Many would beg to differ. I'm pretty interested to see the results of this poll.Why, anyone can vote not just Americans so the results can easily be skewed.....

[Arnie100]

This'll be fun...

[Aerosoul]

Even if the Ten Commandments had anything to do with the US or being American, I'd pick the Bill of Rights any day.

[dttk0009]

Why, anyone can vote not just Americans so the results can easily be skewed.....
This is true, but who would be so dastardly? Out of my own curiosity I obviously won't interfere.p-)

[Eknytz]

Not to mention that the results will be kind of invalidated with all the non Christians on this board anyways.

[Roids]

Many would beg to differ. I'm pretty interested to see the results of this poll.

I'm sure they would, but even Locke and Jefferson were simply deists. The "god-given" rights certainly they talked about did not refer specifically to a judeo-christian god and do not require it, I think they would find it abhorrent that the commandments were placed above the bill of rights.

[Bro Jangles]

ten commandments. not gunna get in a pissing match about religion, but anyone who has an issue with intentions of the 10 commandments has serious issues. the Bill of rights is important, but the 10 come from a higher being.

[Eknytz]

I think they would find it abhorrent that the commandments were placed above the bill of rights.
I don't know- No murder, No adultery, No stealing, and no lying sounds pretty good to me.

[Roids]

Not to mention that the results will be kind of invalidated with all the non Christians on this board anyways.

Honestly, this forum in general seems to be pretty secular. Even if it was limited to Americans, I doubt it would be an accurate representation of the US populace.

[Fat Lazy American]

As an American, which do you value the most:

The Ten Commandments or the Bill of Rights

As an American, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are the law of the land and far more "valuable". So that was an easy vote.

But as a beneficiary of Western civilization and the rule of law (never mind as a non-observant agnostic Jew) ...

I also think there's a tendency to overestimate the importance of the Bill of Rights and underestimate the importance of the Constitution itself. Marbury v. Madison remains the core of American jurispudence and was decided on Article III. And of course, the 14th Amendment is probably as important as the first 10 combined, particularly with the incorporation doctrine. And of course, the United Kingdom is certainly a free society and it lacks a written Constitution ...

[Roids]

I don't know- No murder, No adultery, No stealing, and no lying sounds pretty good to me.

You forgot to add the first four, no cherry picking which ones you can and cannot follow. p-)

Even such, the mala in se laws you described predate the 10. You can even argue that those are inherent by nature like Locke did, who influenced the US heavily. Same goes for arguments used by Immanuel Kant.

Or if you prefer to use exclusively secular explanations, the social contract theory of Hobbes can secure those laws. No need for any supernatural reason for them to exist.

[Fat Lazy American]

No need for any supernatural reason for them to exist.

There's no need for a supernatural reason for the Ten Commandments to be an important document, either.

You don't have to believe Hammurabi was literally a god on earth (as claimed) to recognize the historical importance of his code.

There's a reason they're both on the frieze of the Supreme Court, and there's nothing supernatural about it.

[Eknytz]

You forgot to add the first four, no cherry picking which ones you can and cannot follow. p-)

Why bother? I figured that your an atheist so you wouldn't give a f*ck about the rest of them.

[Daft Ego]

Not to mention that the results will be kind of invalidated with all the non Christians on this board anyways.

So does this post implicitly suggest that non-Christians are not Americans? And as such, when their votes are taken into account, the poll will become invalidated? Nice!

[Eknytz]

So does this post implicitly suggest that non-Christians are not Americans? And as such, when their votes are taken into account, the poll will become invalidated? Nice!
umm no..... I'm saying its invalidated because the ten commandments mean nothing to you if you are not a christian or are of an abrahamic religion.

It's no different than if an atheist was asked to swear on the bible. Of course he has no problem with it because he has no faith in it's meaning.

[Daft Ego]

umm no..... I'm saying its invalidated because the ten commandments mean nothing to you if you are not a christian or are of an abrahamic religion.

Right, but the poll asks which one is more important from the perspective of an American does it not?

[Eknytz]

Right, but the poll asks which one is more important from the perspective of an American does it not?
Well then the poll should have been better written.

It's like making a poll along the lines of

"as a canadian what do you value more -The canadian football team or the english football team"

if you were a canadian from england then you would have trouble choosing between the two. But if you are just a canadian you wouldn't care about the english team.

[Roids]

There's no need for a supernatural reason for the Ten Commandments to be an important document, either.

You don't have to believe Hammurabi was literally a god on earth (as claimed) to recognize the historical importance of his code.

There's a reason they're both on the frieze of the Supreme Court, and there's nothing supernatural about it.

Completely, agreed in that the ten irregardless of a existing god are still heavily influential in western thought, I don't think anyone can deny that.

However, I feel that as human thought has evolved and found IMO better explanations to why we should follow the laws that are shared with the ten, that we shed such ideas that carry so much added baggage.

Also I like to comment on Hammurabi's code, even though it pretty much set up our very basic idea of justice and equity in western civilization, our laws in modern day society are not even based on that concept of justice anymore. We no longer seek equal amounts of punishment and suffering as they themselves have committed, strictly speaking. If anything we are guided by the utilitarian principle, where it is no longer to seek "justice"(in that context) then it is to have a functioning society.

Although, we may pay homage to it for developing our first ideas for morality, but it no longer has the heavy influence it once had. To place it above systems and codes that are dominant in modern thought to me is being unrealistic.

[Daft Ego]

Well then the poll should have been better written.

It's like making a poll along the lines of

"as a canadian what do you value more -The canadian football team or the english football team"

if you were a canadian from england then you would have trouble choosing between the two. But if you are just a canadian you wouldn't care about the english team.

:cantbeli:

Dude, are you for real?

Logic clearly isn't your forte. You know what I'm just gonna stop right here and save myself some time.

[apasc08]

If everyone followed the ten commandments we probably wouldnt need a bill of rights in the first place. just my two cents

[LineDoggie]

:cantbeli:

Dude, are you for real?

Logic clearly isn't your forte. You know what I'm just gonna stop right here and save myself some time. You really shouldnt be taking others to task over perceived lack of Logic after this statement of yours:



"So does this post implicitly suggest that non-Christians are not Americans? And as such, when their votes are taken into account, the poll will become invalidated? Nice! "

[Fat Lazy American]

However, I feel that as human thought has evolved and found IMO better explanations to why we should follow the laws that are shared with the ten, that we shed such ideas that carry so much added baggage.

And Ulysses is a better read than Beowulf.

And Newtonian physics turns out to be entirely illusory.

I don't know if that means you can ascribe greater value to later theories or more modern developments of the English language, per se.



Also I like to comment on Hammurabi's code, even though it pretty much set up our very basic idea of justice and equity in western civilization, our laws in modern day society are not even based on that concept of justice anymore. We no longer seek equal amounts of punishment and suffering as they themselves have committed, strictly speaking. If anything we are guided by the utilitarian principle, where it is no longer to seek "justice"(in that context) then it is to have a functioning society.

Although, we may pay homage to it for developing our first ideas for morality, but it no longer has the heavy influence it once had. To place it above systems and codes that are dominant in modern thought to me is being unrealistic.

Vengeance as a legal construct is very much alive and well, Bentham-designed prisons and practical theories of criminal justice aside.

Most prosecutors look to convict criminals because they believe the criminals "deserve" it. Most judges sentence to punish. Theories about improving society and rehabilitation and deterrence are important, sure. But don't underestimate the criticality of a basic sense of a justice.

[Roids]

And Ulysses is a better read than Beowulf.

And Newtonian physics turns out to be entirely illusory.

I don't know if that means you can ascribe greater value to later theories or more modern developments of the English language, per se.

If by more modern or later theories you mean that have debunked claims of previous theories or have similar claims but done with a leaner, occam's razor approach, then yes, very much. I feel this is natural, as theories are presented, so does further inquiry to test them. That is simply progression.




Vengeance as a legal construct is very much alive and well, Bentham-designed prisons and practical theories of criminal justice aside.

Most prosecutors look to convict criminals because they believe the criminals "deserve" it. Most judges sentence to punish. Theories about improving society and rehabilitation and deterrence are important, sure. But don't underestimate the criticality of a basic sense of a justice.

You're right, vengeance is still a human emotion that is alive and well, but is it truly suppose to be apart of the ethic system we are suppose to espouse? We do not put ethical merit in the outburst of a child's temper tantrum, as emotive and human it may be?

The same prosecutors you speak of may prosecute a criminal knowing that they may in fact be a truly despicable human and very deserving of punishment, at least on a emotional basis. Yet, they know they must do it in a way that is ethical and in adherence to the 8th amendment.

[PeterRJG]

So, some of you would rather see nonsense like honour your parents or not use the Lord's name in vain take precedence over a document that guarantees unalienable rights and freedoms for all?

So, a child abandoned by his parents or one parent, or has a parent murdered by the other, or is ******ly or physically abused by his parent(s) is still obliged to honour them, even though they are not worthy of the remotest piece of honourable devotion? Or will a Biblical Interpretation Committee (BIC for short) be set up to decide each case as it happens. You know, like the way Islamic scholars decide matters of fiqh?

And, every time someone says goddamn Jesus Henry Gilbert Christ, he or she will be arraigned on a charge of taking the Lord's name in vain.

There are 10 generally accepted Commandments among quite a few others (Exodus 20:2–17, Exodus 34:11–27, Deuteronomy 5:6–21) and the Bible makes it clear they are supposed to be upheld. No exceptions. It's easy not to covet your neighbour's missus or his shiznit, and it's easy not to steal or murder and remember that the Lord god helped you all out of Egypt, etc, etc, but I can foresee issues seeing all ten of them being followed to the letter, enforced to the letter, etc.

There's a reason the US has a Constitution and a Bill of Rights. Because they serve all equally always. At least that was their intention, as I see it.

[Daft Ego]

You really shouldnt be taking others to task over perceived lack of Logic after this statement of yours:

1. Note my post in the form of a question.

2. You tell me why it would invalidate the poll if a non-Christian American votes in something where the basis is, as the OP stated, based solely on their nationality?

3. Now if the poll had asked whether if Christian-Americans preferred the Bill of Rights or the Ten Commandments, then yes, the poll would be invalidated had non-Christian Americans voted. But that wasn't the case, clearly. And in retrospect, it's possible that Eknytz confused the assumption above with what the real poll asked.

4. 2+2=4. Do you see how that works? You can use your fingers if you have to.

[LineDoggie]

You tell me why it would invalidate the poll if a non-Christian American votes in something where the basis is, as the OP stated, based solely on their nationality? But the Poll cant be limited to Americans only, which only serves to make allthe data gleaned suspect. Since the OP didnt leave it a Public Poll where one sees who voted for what, What is to stop you from voting ten commandments and then decrying the Bible thumpers?

nothing

As well there are Many posters here who are US Citizens who are
a). Not Christians
b). Not Practicing Christians
c). Other Faiths
d). Atheists
They would have little interest in voting for the 10 Commandments obviously.




4. 2+2=4. Do you see how that works? You can use your fingers if you have to.And if we need fractions you can drop your pants, eh?

[seraosha]

Which is more important, air or water?
3 minutes or 3 days...the result without either is the same.

Likewise the 10 commandments and the Bill of Rights...YMMV.

[3rdMillhouse]

Even though I'm not american, Bill of Rights any time of the day.

[CMNot]

So, some of you would rather see nonsense like honour your parents or not use the Lord's name in vain take precedence over a document that guarantees unalienable rights and freedoms for all? My God is a jealous God, and he will **** your **** right up Peter.

[Sarig]

As a non-american, non-christian, I would like to vote for The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

[seraosha]

As a non-american, non-christian, I would like to vote for The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

Shutup, newfag.

[Geezah]

And of course, the United Kingdom is certainly a free society and it lacks a written Constitution ...

No and yes, the American Bill of Rights is based on the British Bill of Rights which was penned by William Blackstone, but anymore don't apply in the UK.

[vryhpyammoadded]

The Bill of Rights must be taken in context with the US Constitution and is effectively an extension of many common religious/philosophical themes but most especially those of Christianity and the later Western enlightenment. It would be impossible to value one more than the other because they are intrinsically one and the same, pretty much stating don’t be a **** and respect the individual rights of others likewise.

The Bill of Rights/Constitution is pretty much just a secularized update, adapted to new language and technology with the national culture absorbing the religion yet disconnecting it from the state. A pretty neat trick I might add diminishing typical divine might makes right, messy constraining dogmatic strait jackets that throttle reason by spreading that across the voters as a whole and the fundamental reason why the US is constantly at odds with enslavement, idolatry and international affairs.

This question to me is pretty much asking if a piece of addenda, errata supersedes the whole document that it’s part of.

My answer is that I value the concepts at their root.

[matthew.manhorn]

The 2nd commandment is pure discrimination as it's against the 1st amendment.

I love Tom Cruise, he's a funny guy

[Daft Ego]

But the Poll cant be limited to Americans only, which only serves to make allthe data gleaned suspect. Since the OP didnt leave it a Public Poll where one sees who voted for what, What is to stop you from voting ten commandments and then decrying the Bible thumpers?

nothing

Notice how that's completely correct and I never argued against that.



As well there are Many posters here who are US Citizens who are
a). Not Christians
b). Not Practicing Christians
c). Other Faiths
d). Atheists
They would have little interest in voting for the 10 Commandments obviously.

This is what I was arguing against. It would be irrelevant since the poll only asked Americans in general. It didn't ask which one Christian-Americans preferred. I do hope you can tell the difference between the two circumstances, and how your argument has no bearing on the poll's original condition.


And if we need fractions you can drop your pants, eh?

I don't know about you, but that's not really necessary for me. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Kit]

Which is more important, air or water?
3 minutes or 3 days...the result without either is the same.

Likewise the 10 commandments and the Bill of Rights...YMMV.

x2

This is comparing Apples to Oranges.

10 Commandments are for how a person should behave before God. Bill of Rights are how a government should conduct itself in law.

If I were a state prosecutor, I will work within the Bill of Rights because it was there for that purpose. If I tried to enforce the 10 Commandments on a non-Christian, that would be ridiculous. Christianity has no "Promise Land" to keep sacred, so there is no sense to enforce our beliefs on people who don't believe. Unfortunately, a lot of Evangelicals want a theocratic like state, which isn't what Jesus had in mind.

The Church will follow the 10 Commandments
The State will follow the Bill of Rights.
Take note on how I separated them.

[eskachig]

The Bill of Rights must be taken in context with the US Constitution and is effectively an extension of many common religious/philosophical themes but most especially those of Christianity and the later Western enlightenment.The Bill of Rights has very little connection to Christianity, if any.

[seraosha]

The Bill of Rights has very little connection to Christianity, if any.

Except for Western Christianity, deists in particular, the reformation, protestants, and the founding of the US by Christians fleeing persecution?

Really, WTF are they teaching kids today. One of my ancestors signed the Declaration of Independence, so maybe it's a little closer to my heart, but really...has the Atheistic whitewash spread so far as to try and eliminate Christianity from the Framers of our Country? They sure wern't snake handling Babtists, and weren't exactly hot for Catholics, but jumping jesus on a pogo stick, you can't seperate the context of the belief system of the framers from their documents.

[BMUS]

I like this thread. It's kinda philosophic. But as seraosha said: air or water?

[PeterRJG]

Except for Western Christianity, deists in particular, the reformation, protestants, and the founding of the US by Christians fleeing persecution?

Really, WTF are they teaching kids today. One of my ancestors signed the Declaration of Independence, so maybe it's a little closer to my heart, but really...has the Atheistic whitewash spread so far as to try and eliminate Christianity from the Framers of our Country? They sure wern't snake handling Babtists, and weren't exactly hot for Catholics, but jumping jesus on a pogo stick, you can't seperate the context of the belief system of the framers from their documents.

Don't take your Lord's name in vain. Christians believe Jesus is the son of God and therefore is divine in his own right. You fail. You can't even uphold all of the Commandments here on an Internet forum.

Stick to the Bill of Rights - it's easier and more logical to live by.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Except for Western Christianity, deists in particular, the reformation, protestants, and the founding of the US by Christians fleeing persecution?

Really, WTF are they teaching kids today. One of my ancestors signed the Declaration of Independence, so maybe it's a little closer to my heart, but really...has the Atheistic whitewash spread so far as to try and eliminate Christianity from the Framers of our Country? They sure wern't snake handling Babtists, and weren't exactly hot for Catholics, but jumping jesus on a pogo stick, you can't seperate the context of the belief system of the framers from their documents.
You’re correct and I’ll go a little further hoping to irritate a few collectivist tools…

Socialism, and other forms of corrupt collectivist enslavement, are the antithesis of founding US Western Enlightenment (inseparable from our brand of rebellious, individualistic Christianity by the way) cultural principles, therefore, the so called communitarians infecting the state (world) must somehow reshape historical, cultural perceptions so as to cleave that culture from the Constitution which will immediately disconnect the Bill of Rights allowing collectivist tyranny to rape the wealth of the nation.

We traditional US individualists are nothing but piñata’s to the international collectivists mind, to be bust open letting the candy rain down to be gobbled up. All this is yet another example of the corrupt and lazy attempting to mine the goodness out of a productive people until they’re tapped out.

[MichaelF]

As an American, which do you value the most:

The Ten Commandments or the Bill of Rights

False dichotomy.

[seraosha]

Don't take your Lord's name in vain. Christians believe Jesus is the son of God and therefore is divine in his own right. You fail. You can't even uphold all of the Commandments here on an Internet forum.

Stick to the Bill of Rights - it's easier and more logical to live by.

You took the bait, bright eyes.
Paying attention to detail while looking for a quick zinger...
/FAIL

[Isaac Kasabian]

I'll take the 10 commandments (mitzvot) plus the the other 603.