A new Chinese Submarine

[rodin_hsu]

Here is what I got today. It seems to be real, but I cannot tell which class it belong to. Maybe it is a new one, and seems not bad.

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/6080/CNewSub.jpg[/img]

[Bayonet]

I guess that's KILO....import from russia...

[rodin_hsu]

I guess that's KILO....import from russia...

Similar, but not exactly the same.

http://img4.exs.cx/img4/3355/kilo8.jpg
http://img4.exs.cx/img4/6757/kilo9.jpg

[DE_Six]

Kilo-class has its forward diving planes located on the hull, not the sail.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/kilo-DNSC9401282.JPG

[Bayonet]

Maybe its a new one I guess

there are two future types subs

Type 093 Nuclear Attack Submarine and type 094 Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine


It looks like 094 Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine


http://sinodefence.com/navy/sub/093.asp

[J-10]

09X?

[Xingbake]

Very interesting...... Is it a latest improved version of Han Class?

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/blade/zg/hj/hsj/hj010.jpg

[Mudcat]

Not a Han. The dive planes are too low on the sail and the flood vents along the hull of the Han are not on this sub.

The multiple bow torpedo caps and large sail do look similar to a Kilo. Maybe an experimental/refit Kilo with the dive planes moved to the sail?

[Bayonet]

Not a Han. The dive planes are too low on the sail and the flood vents along the hull of the Han are not on this sub.

The multiple bow torpedo caps and large sail do look similar to a Kilo. Maybe an experimental/refit Kilo with the dive planes moved to the sail?

Yes,, I agree,,not a Han

and I dont think its a KILO....just looks like KILO...

but as DE6 ssaid "Kilo-class has its forward diving planes located on the hull, not the sail. "

It looks like 094 Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine
..

[Xingbake]

At least one thing is for sure: the pic was taken at Wu Han, the capital of Hu Bei province. There is a submin. yard there.

[vryhpyammoadded]

It kind of resembles a Russian Amur class which is to be exported.
Pretty little boat I'd say. I'm sure US subs are already waiting to play tag and listen to it as soon as it's ready. I wonder if it has the closed cycle plant?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/DG02Ag02.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Amur.html

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/677.htm

If it's an Amur, it looks too short for the closed cycle plant but, what are those four ports on the starbord side and are there more on the port? Vertically launched Klub missles?

[DPGLAW]

I wonder who the Chinese stole that design from? I mean, all other Chinese military weapons systems, planes, subs, ships, etc. are stolen designs....Thats just based upon what I have read on here

[PeoplesPoster]

I wonder who the Chinese stole that design from? I mean, all other Chinese military weapons systems, planes, subs, ships, etc. are stolen designs....Thats just based upon what I have read on here

Blahblahblahblahblah stole blahblabhblahblahblah.
Look I'm witty too.

[rodin_hsu]

I wonder who the Chinese stole that design from? I mean, all other Chinese military weapons systems, planes, subs, ships, etc. are stolen designs....Thats just based upon what I have read on here

Yeah, you can say that.
But catching up military technology within 20 years is not easy.
This is the way it go.
Think about that. If you were the Chinese government, and there is a big fight waiting on the road probabely within the next 10 years.
This is the best weapon you can get and get it quickly. Your life depend on it. Then what would you do!?

If I were the Chinese government, I would say
"Yeah! I stole your idea. So waht? SUE ME!!"
Had better sue me on U.N.
Oh, Come On! After Iraq War who care?!

[Bayonet]

I wonder who the Chinese stole that design from? I mean, all other Chinese military weapons systems, planes, subs, ships, etc. are stolen designs....Thats just based upon what I have read on here

Yeah, you can say that.
But catching up military technology within 20 years is not easy.
This is the way it go.
Think about that. If you were the Chinese government, and there is a big fight waiting on the road probabely within the next 10 years.
This is the best weapon you can get and get it quickly. Your life depend on it. Then what would you do!?

If I were the Chinese government, I would say
"Yeah! I stole your idea. So waht? SUE ME!!"
Had better sue me on U.N.
Oh, Come On! After Iraq War who care?!


Tie Zui Tong Ya....hah :D :D

[vryhpyammoadded]

I'm kind of glad my Eruopean ancestors stole the secrets of gunpowder, paper money and the printing press from the Chinese.
By the way, I think the Russians stole this one awhile back and the Chinese are simply purchasing it. Just kidding. I know the Russian's and Chinese have developed some great sub tech on there own too.
Heck, we all steal from each other anyway ;)

Anyone ID'd this boat yet?

[Bayonet]

I'm kind of glad my Eruopean ancestors stole the secrets of gunpowder, paper money and the printing press from the Chinese.
By the way, I think the Russians stole this one awhile back and the Chinese are simply purchasing it. Just kidding. I know the Russian's and Chinese have developed some great sub tech on there own too.
Heck, we all steal from each other anyway ;)

Anyone ID'd this boat yet?

No one has ID it......

Damn....We show our PLA's secret to foreigners .....HAHA...

I cant classify this sub into any classes we have now....

[rodin_hsu]

.
Heck, we all steal from each other anyway ;)

Anyone ID'd this boat yet?
No one has ID it......
Damn....We show our PLA's secret to foreigners .....HAHA...
I cant classify this sub into any classes we have now....

Here is a link to Washington Times's report:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040716-123134-8152r.htm

Oh, God!! I feel so guilty .... Must be some reporters on this Website ... :bash:

[Omz222]

I wonder who the Chinese stole that design from? I mean, all other Chinese military weapons systems, planes, subs, ships, etc. are stolen designs....Thats just based upon what I have read on here

But overall, most Chinese weapons are based on other designs, that's not a suprise. But like rodin said, it's not easy to recover from an armor force of T-55s and air force of MiG-15/17/19/21s to a modern army, air force, and navy within 20 years. But there are certainly now much more indigenous or joint weapons projects (such as J-10 fighter, SD-10 air-to-air missile, the new crop of destroyers and submarines, etc. etc.). With that said, not all weapon systems are stolen, copied, based-on-other-designs, or/and licensed now. Certainly a number of designs are copied/based on, but not towards that extent.

[J-10]

.
Heck, we all steal from each other anyway ;)

Anyone ID'd this boat yet?
No one has ID it......
Damn....We show our PLA's secret to foreigners .....HAHA...
I cant classify this sub into any classes we have now....

Here is a link to Washington Times's report:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040716-123134-8152r.htm

Oh, God!! I feel so guilty .... Must be some reporters on this Website ... :bash:

Yuan-class, hehe, interesting.

[Bayonet]

Yuan-class, hehe, interesting.


HAHA...Yuan class...haha rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[vryhpyammoadded]

Here is a link to Washington Times's report:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040716-123134-8152r.htm
Oh, God!! I feel so guilty .... Must be some reporters on this Website ... :bash:
LOL, I love how reporters print all the ominous quotes of military experts. I guess it makes for good sales on all sides.

The Washington Post
“ The Navy should consider building its own diesel attack submarine to be able to effectively duke it out with the new tidal wave of Chinese subs, that if left unchecked, may soon dominate the Asian littoral regions,".

Cool, I like the “build our own diesel” sales pitch. Not only would they be a great low end force multiplier for the fleet boats but we can bring back nights listening to the old rumble of boats in port recharging batteries and the diesel smell. Plus, it will give the navy another place where the Nuke mentality is verboten. ;-) Heck, EB needs more work for Groton anyway. It’s starting to look like a ghost town these days even with the Virginia production going.

If China wants to challenge the US in 20 years they will need to from a position of strength. Big deal…It will be a good test of both countries character and their right to exist. Hopefully we both don’t get too cocky and fail this test seeing it will be really messy for everyone.

[Bayonet]

If China wants to challenge the US in 20 years they will need to from a position of strength. Big deal…It will be a good test of both countries character and their right to exist. Hopefully we both don’t get too cocky and fail this test seeing it will be really messy for everyone.

A War between the US and China in 20 years ? HA..... rofl

As a chinese ,I dont know americans' thoughts, but I can tell you my

thoughts, the war between the US and CHina in 20 years is IMPOSSIBLE...

Even though there is a big problem -----Taiwan..

But the point is PLA wont "invade" Taiwan until Mr Chen or other future

"president" of Taiwan delcares independence and as soon as the

government of taiwan delcares the independence, the US wont defend it...

so its a trap made for Mr Chen by bright americans and chinese in the mainland.....

[Mr Chthonic]

I'm kind of glad my Eruopean ancestors stole the secrets of gunpowder, paper money and the printing press from the Chinese.
By the way, I think the Russians stole this one awhile back and the Chinese are simply purchasing it. Just kidding. I know the Russian's and Chinese have developed some great sub tech on there own too.
Heck, we all steal from each other anyway ;)


Hi, this is my first post. I am an American. A Crypto Tech working out of South Korea. I also dabble in Historical writing. woot
I dont enjoy flaming people or insulting them. And up front I should mention I am politically and socially conservative. Thanx.

In reference to your quote. This is an oversimplification. Because the Europeans did not actually "steal" from China. Inventions make their ways across the trade routes and who doesnt want to make life better or make more money?

And in this spirit, lets not forget that the Europeans improved on all of these... not copying outright.

Personally, I believe the Chinese and European cultures advanced all of mankind the most. My hope for the future is that China, USA & EU could be close friends and use their powers to help and heal, instead of create tension and prepare for war.

This seems an appropriate point to mention four Chinese inventions that provided starting points for the Wests technological take-off:

CROSSBOW - developed in China in the 2nd century BC; the western contribution was to increase its power by making the bow out of steel.

THE FLOATING COMPASS - first mentioned in an 11th century Chinese encyclopedia; a century later the Europeans added the compass card, which greatly enhanced its utility.

WOODBLOCK PRINTING - developed in China in the 8th century. The Chinese system was used by the Persians who gave us playing cards from them. The Chinese did experiment with moveable type but never devolped it into a practical technology, and Gutenberg's system owes nothing to their experiments.

GUNPOWDER - first mentioned in Chinese alchemical treatise of the 9th century, but in a form which burnt rather then exploded. As such it found its main application in rockets. There is good evidence that the Chinese military made use of "fire lances", in which the jet of a fixed rocket was directed at the enemy, but there is nothing to indicate that they ever evolved and refined a gunpowder capable of gun use.

As for the submarine, it looks a bit dull. And I hope its not very good at killing people. ;)

[J-10]

WOODBLOCK PRINTING - developed in China in the 8th century. The Chinese system was used by the Persians who gave us playing cards from them. The Chinese did experiment with moveable type but never devolped it into a practical technology, and Gutenberg's system owes nothing to their experiments.



The Chinese did experiment with moveable type but never devolped it into a practical technology

The earliest newspaper--"Kai Yuan Za Bao" was created in A.D.713～714 Chinese Tang dynasty. The remained earliest printing practicality--"Jin Gang Jing"(a Buddhism book) Which collected in British museum now, was created in A.D.868. Chinese Tang dynasty.



Personally, I believe the Chinese and European cultures advanced all of mankind the most. My hope for the future is that China, USA & EU could be close friends and use their powers to help and heal, instead of create tension and prepare for war.


Yeah, I agree with you. Let us understand, trade and learn each other, share peace. :D

[memphiz]

Its not a Sub its a robotic whale that the Japanese built and it floated into Chinese waters and the Chinese captured it.

[Bayonet]

Its not a Sub its a robotic whale that the Japanese built and it floated into Chinese waters and the Chinese captured it.

OMG.......How can you always find out our secrets?????!!!!!!! :(


Japanese built it as a giant toilet bout for 350 people use it at the same

time..

We stole this giant toilet bout and use it to fire missiles....


We only told this secret to Mr Bush when he complained the White

House's toilet bouts are too small.....

[Nizark]

Im surprised USN intel never caught it before. And from that first pic, it has at least 6 torpedo tubes..maybe more underneath the water line.

Anyone know if is is possible to fire more than 2 torps at once in a combat situation?

[Bayonet]

Im surprised USN intel never caught it before. And from that first pic, it has at least 6 torpedo tubes..maybe more underneath the water line.

Anyone know if is is possible to fire more than 2 torps at once in a combat situation?

Its a new sub.....no real and available info.

[hank]

Im surprised USN intel never caught it before. And from that first pic, it has at least 6 torpedo tubes..maybe more underneath the water line.

Anyone know if is is possible to fire more than 2 torps at once in a combat situation?

No, its not. The extra tube is the front portion of a magneto-hydrodynamic drive propulsion system. TOP SECRET, paddle foot.

hank

[memphiz]

Its not a Sub its a robotic whale that the Japanese built and it floated into Chinese waters and the Chinese captured it.

OMG.......How can you always find out our secrets?????!!!!!!! :(


Japanese built it as a giant toilet bout for 350 people use it at the same

time..

We stole this giant toilet bout and use it to fire missiles....


We only told this secret to Mr Bush when he complained the White

House's toilet bouts are too small.....
:D

[FallenAngel]

Im surprised USN intel never caught it before. And from that first pic, it has at least 6 torpedo tubes..maybe more underneath the water line.

Anyone know if is is possible to fire more than 2 torps at once in a combat situation?

No, its not. The extra tube is the front portion of a magneto-hydrodynamic drive propulsion system. TOP SECRET, paddle foot.

hank

Well then...hopefully Alec Baldwin has made contact with this sub and confirmed it's desire to defect ;)

[rodin_hsu]

Personally, I believe the Chinese and European cultures advanced all of mankind the most. My hope for the future is that China, USA & EU could be close friends and use their powers to help and heal, instead of create tension and prepare for war.


You don't want tension and war? Fine!
Here is the hint:
Tell the Taiwan population and the pro-independence government loudly and clearly:
"IF YOU WANT TO GO TO INDEPENDENCE, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN !!!".

This is very important and necessary to prevent this war, because most of taiwanese don't know that! The Bush administration and his neo-conservative henchmen stressing on their commitment to protect Taiwan make Taiwan pro-independent politicos believe that they can do whatever they want.

Taiwan Strait Crisis is deteriorating every day! And Bush administration is messing it up!!

[coldman]

It's a hybrid of Russian Kilo and some Chinese mod. It's now being designated as the "Yuan" class by the US DoD, diesel powered.

There should be two more types commissioning any days now, the 093 and 094, but those are nuke powered.

We all live in a Chinese submarine, Chinese submarine......
I wonder if the US can track these by snuffing for the smell of Kung Pao chicken cooked by onboard chef

[Ghostwolf]

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/6080/CNewSub.jpg

Nice try, but this is nothing but a Photoshopped hoax

Here's another angle shot of the "new" sub:
http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-16/10899504141089942518039X.jpg

http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-16/10899517211089942579039x-2.jpg

and THIS is what is sitting in the dock right now:
http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-17/1090037417108348658658384352330.jpg

http://big5.china.com/gate/big5/bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-17/109004899147714312860.jpg
It's a 039A "Song" class sub.

[Bayonet]

Personally, I believe the Chinese and European cultures advanced all of mankind the most. My hope for the future is that China, USA & EU could be close friends and use their powers to help and heal, instead of create tension and prepare for war.


You don't want tension and war? Fine!
Here is the hint:
Tell the Taiwan population and the pro-independence government loudly and clearly:
"IF YOU WANT TO GO TO INDEPENDENCE, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN !!!".

This is very important and necessary to prevent this war, because most of taiwanese don't know that! The Bush administration and his neo-conservative henchmen stressing on their commitment to protect Taiwan make Taiwan pro-independent politicos believe that they can do whatever they want.

Taiwan Strait Crisis is deteriorating every day! And Bush administration is messing it up!!



You mean government of taiwan havent tell taiwan people that if taiwan delcares its independence, the US wont defend taiwan?!?!

[Bayonet]

To Ghostwolf....

You mean the pic was photoshopped??

[J-10]

I think its the same dock, different sub.

[31Charlie]

Hi Everybody! I think this should help shed some light on this "New Chinese Submarine":


SUBMARINES: The “New China Submarine”



July 17, 2004: Wuhan is a deep water port about two hundred kilometers upriver from the mouth of the Yangze River. Wuhan Shipyard was started there seventy five years ago. In the PRC era it has become the primary builder of China’s non-nuclear submarines. In May, on the occasion of its anniversary, it displayed a new variant of the Song class guided missile submarine, longer than the parent, which, it was said, has an Air Independent auxiliary propulsion unit. Also in May two photographs were taken of a different, rather larger submarine, also at Wuhan shipyard. It appears the new submarine is as large or slightly larger than the 244 foot long (2350 ton displacement) Kilo Project 636. The DOD disclosed that this new class of conventional submarine has the code name “Yaun.”

It had been reported in the Chinese press that China had built its own version of the Russian “Kilo” class. It was stated that the submarine had been modified, and that the Chinese variant was “better” than its Russian counterpart. Analysts discounted this report as mere propaganda. Even the publication of a model of the submarine by an aviation magazine caused no change in this view: building a model is a lot easier than building a full sized submarine. But the photographs of the submarine, launched and undergoing the usual floating fitting out process at Wuhan, has caused a reinterpretation of this report. It is clear that this submarine is nearly ready for sea and that she is, indeed, a variant of the Russian Kilo class. However, it is not an exact copy. The diving planes are on the sail, and there are other detail changes. Given the Chinese have already fitted AIP in both Ming and Song type hulls, the possibility this is an AIP variant of the Kilo should not be discounted. It also may be able to launch cruise missiles from torpedo tubes, as the Song class do. Evaluation of the model indicates it is large enough. If so, it might indeed be said to be a “better” version of the Kilo than the Russian version.

There is another implication of this development. China has barely completed taking delivery of half a dozen of the third group of Ming class, It is now building the third variant of the Song class. There are two sub groups of Kilo with eight more building for delivery in 2006 and 2007. The first 093 class SSN is expected to commission in a few weeks. The first 094 SSBN is well under construction. Now we have another sub type of Kilo nearing completion. Clearly China has decided to acquire many types of submarines, more types than any other nation. The Chinese perception that its submarines are its first line warships is reinforced by the appointment of a submarine officer as the new commander of the navy (PLAN, or People's Liberation Army Navy). And it appears that the size of the Chinese submarine force is not declining, as was widely reported. Instead it appears that in excess of eighty submarines will be available (in one state or another) for the medium term. It also appears that this force is modernizing fast, and that in waters of interest to China, it probably has a significant, and growing, operational capability.

There's been some claim that the new Chinese sub is a radical "surprise" for the U.S. Navy. Despite the charges that the Navy "didn't know" they were building it, in fact the Navy did. The "surprise" was that the boat was ready sooner than expected, but it's really hard to tell when a boat will be finished, given that they're always built under a shed. As for its capabilities, well, a lot is being said, but while the new boat seems to be different from the previous class, it's not clear that she's a major leap forward.-- Sid Trevethan

[Bayonet]

Hi Everybody! I think this should help shed some light on this "New Chinese Submarine":


SUBMARINES: The “New China Submarine”



July 17, 2004: Wuhan is a deep water port about two hundred kilometers upriver from the mouth of the Yangze River. Wuhan Shipyard was started there seventy five years ago. In the PRC era it has become the primary builder of China’s non-nuclear submarines. In May, on the occasion of its anniversary, it displayed a new variant of the Song class guided missile submarine, longer than the parent, which, it was said, has an Air Independent auxiliary propulsion unit. Also in May two photographs were taken of a different, rather larger submarine, also at Wuhan shipyard. It appears the new submarine is as large or slightly larger than the 244 foot long (2350 ton displacement) Kilo Project 636. The DOD disclosed that this new class of conventional submarine has the code name “Yaun.”

It had been reported in the Chinese press that China had built its own version of the Russian “Kilo” class. It was stated that the submarine had been modified, and that the Chinese variant was “better” than its Russian counterpart. Analysts discounted this report as mere propaganda. Even the publication of a model of the submarine by an aviation magazine caused no change in this view: building a model is a lot easier than building a full sized submarine. But the photographs of the submarine, launched and undergoing the usual floating fitting out process at Wuhan, has caused a reinterpretation of this report. It is clear that this submarine is nearly ready for sea and that she is, indeed, a variant of the Russian Kilo class. However, it is not an exact copy. The diving planes are on the sail, and there are other detail changes. Given the Chinese have already fitted AIP in both Ming and Song type hulls, the possibility this is an AIP variant of the Kilo should not be discounted. It also may be able to launch cruise missiles from torpedo tubes, as the Song class do. Evaluation of the model indicates it is large enough. If so, it might indeed be said to be a “better” version of the Kilo than the Russian version.

There is another implication of this development. China has barely completed taking delivery of half a dozen of the third group of Ming class, It is now building the third variant of the Song class. There are two sub groups of Kilo with eight more building for delivery in 2006 and 2007. The first 093 class SSN is expected to commission in a few weeks. The first 094 SSBN is well under construction. Now we have another sub type of Kilo nearing completion. Clearly China has decided to acquire many types of submarines, more types than any other nation. The Chinese perception that its submarines are its first line warships is reinforced by the appointment of a submarine officer as the new commander of the navy (PLAN, or People's Liberation Army Navy). And it appears that the size of the Chinese submarine force is not declining, as was widely reported. Instead it appears that in excess of eighty submarines will be available (in one state or another) for the medium term. It also appears that this force is modernizing fast, and that in waters of interest to China, it probably has a significant, and growing, operational capability.

There's been some claim that the new Chinese sub is a radical "surprise" for the U.S. Navy. Despite the charges that the Navy "didn't know" they were building it, in fact the Navy did. The "surprise" was that the boat was ready sooner than expected, but it's really hard to tell when a boat will be finished, given that they're always built under a shed. As for its capabilities, well, a lot is being said, but while the new boat seems to be different from the previous class, it's not clear that she's a major leap forward.-- Sid Trevethan


Helpful.....many thanks :hug:

[rodin_hsu]

[quote]
Nice try, but this is nothing but a Photoshopped hoax

Here's another angle shot of the "new" sub:
http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-16/10899504141089942518039X.jpg

http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-16/10899517211089942579039x-2.jpg

and THIS is what is sitting in the dock right now:
http://bbs.china.com/images/2004-07-17/1090037417108348658658384352330.jpg

It's a 039A "Song" class sub.

Interesting. But I can't tell how it prove the first pic was cooked.
The first two pics you provided could be faked, but even you provide
some song class pics took at the same place. That doesn't mean
they have been took at the same time.

[J-10]

http://img6.exs.cx/img6/5755/showimg_1090130014.jpg
http://img6.exs.cx/img6/2865/212_1090130298.jpg

"Yuan class"
KILO
039A
212

Interesting? :lol:

[vryhpyammoadded]

In reference to your quote. This is an oversimplification. Because the Europeans did not actually "steal" from China. Inventions make their ways across the trade routes and who doesnt want to make life better or make more money?

Check out many earlier posted oversimplifications on various “China, you copied our this and that” threads and you’ll see the humor in the quote.




If China wants to challenge the US in 20 years they will need to from a position of strength. Big deal…It will be a good test of both countries character and their right to exist. Hopefully we both don’t get too cocky and fail this test seeing it will be really messy for everyone.
A War between the US and China in 20 years ? HA..... rofl
As a chinese ,I dont know americans' thoughts, but I can tell you my
thoughts, the war between the US and CHina in 20 years is IMPOSSIBLE...
Even though there is a big problem -----Taiwan..
But the point is PLA wont "invade" Taiwan until Mr Chen or other future
"president" of Taiwan delcares independence and as soon as the
government of taiwan delcares the independence, the US wont defend it...
so its a trap made for Mr Chen by bright americans and chinese in the mainland.....

I said challenge, in other words, to compete with; not war.
The test is that both succeed in not blasting each other as the competition heats up. As for a US vs. China war, it won’t happen unless by accident. China and the US both have H-Bombs and ICBM’s. My sunscreen can't handle those UV rays and that rules out war in my opinion.
Hopefully Taiwan and China work things out peaceably.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Hi, this is my first post. I am an American. A Crypto Tech working out of South Korea. I also dabble in Historical writing. woot
I dont enjoy flaming people or insulting them. And up front I should mention I am politically and socially conservative. Thanx.


BTW: Welcome to the forum. No problem here with flaming although I wouldn't consider anything you said a bother. Great to see a new member.