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TheSteve
12-05-2009, 02:39 PM
How Obama Came to Plan for ‘Surge’ in Afghanistan

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By PETER BAKER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/peter_baker/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: December 5, 2009



WASHINGTON — On the afternoon he held the eighth meeting of his Afghanistan review, President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) arrived in the White House Situation Room ruminating about war. He had come from Arlington National Cemetery, where he had wandered among the chalky white tombstones of those who had fallen in the rugged mountains of Central Asia.

How much their sacrifice weighed on him that Veterans Day (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/v/veterans_day/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) last month, he did not say. But his advisers say he was haunted by the human toll as he wrestled with what to do about the eight-year-old war. Just a month earlier, he had mentioned to them his visits to wounded soldiers at the Army hospital in Washington. “I don’t want to be going to Walter Reed for another eight years,” he said then.

The economic cost was troubling him as well after he received a private budget memo estimating that an expanded presence would cost $1 trillion over 10 years, roughly the same as his health care plan. Now as his top military adviser ran through a slide show of options, Mr. Obama expressed frustration. He held up a chart showing how reinforcements would flow into Afghanistan over 18 months and eventually begin to pull out, a bell curve that meant American forces would be there for years to come.

“I want this pushed to the left,” he told advisers, pointing to the bell curve. In other words, the troops should be in sooner, then out sooner.

When the history of the Obama presidency is written, that day with the chart may prove to be a turning point, the moment a young commander in chief set in motion a high-stakes gamble to turn around a losing war. By moving the bell curve to the left, Mr. Obama decided to send 30,000 troops mostly in the next six months and then begin pulling them out a year after that, betting that a quick jolt of extra forces could knock the enemy back on its heels enough for the Afghans to take over the fight.

The three-month review that led to the escalate-then-exit strategy is a case study in decision making in the Obama White House — intense, methodical, rigorous, earnest and at times deeply frustrating for nearly all involved. It was a virtual seminar in Afghanistan and Pakistan, led by a president described by one participant as something “between a college professor and a gentle cross-examiner.”

Mr. Obama peppered advisers with questions and showed an insatiable demand for information, taxing analysts who prepared three dozen intelligence reports for him and Pentagon staff members who churned out thousands of pages of documents.

This account of how the president reached his decision is based on dozens of interviews with participants as well as a review of notes some of them took during Mr. Obama’s 10 meetings with his national security team. Most of those interviewed spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations, but their accounts have been matched against those of other participants wherever possible.

Mr. Obama devoted so much time to the Afghan issue — nearly 11 hours on the day after Thanksgiving alone — that he joked, “I’ve got more deeply in the weeds than a president should, and now you guys need to solve this.” He invited competing voices to debate in front of him, while guarding his own thoughts. Even David Axelrod (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/david_axelrod/index.html?inline=nyt-per), arguably his closest adviser, did not know where Mr. Obama would come out until just before Thanksgiving.

With the result uncertain, the outsize personalities on his team vied for his favor, sometimes sharply disagreeing as they made their arguments. The White House suspected the military of leaking details of the review to put pressure on the president. The military and the State Department suspected the White House of leaking to undercut the case for more troops. The president erupted at the leaks with an anger advisers had rarely seen, but did little to shut down the public clash within his own government.

“The president welcomed a full range of opinions and invited contrary points of view,” Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/hillary_rodham_clinton/index.html?inline=nyt-per) said in an interview last month. “And I thought it was a very healthy experience because people took him up on it. And one thing we didn’t want — to have a decision made and then have somebody say, ‘Oh, by the way.’ No, come forward now or forever hold your peace.”

The decision represents a complicated evolution in Mr. Obama’s thinking. He began the process clearly skeptical of Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/stanley_a_mcchrystal/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s request for 40,000 more troops, but the more he learned about the consequences of failure, and the more he narrowed the mission, the more he gravitated toward a robust if temporary buildup, guided in particular by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/robert_m_gates/index.html?inline=nyt-per).

Yet even now, he appears ambivalent about what some call “Obama’s War.” Just two weeks before General McChrystal warned of failure at the end of August, Mr. Obama described Afghanistan as a “war of necessity.” When he announced his new strategy last week, those words were nowhere to be found. Instead, while recommitting to the war on Al Qaeda (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/al_qaeda/index.html?inline=nyt-org), he made clear that the larger struggle for Afghanistan had to be balanced against the cost in blood and treasure and brought to an end.

Aides, though, said the arduous review gave Mr. Obama comfort that he had found the best course he could. “The process was exhaustive, but any time you get the president of the United States to devote 25 hours, anytime you get that kind of commitment, you know it was serious business,” said Gen. James L. Jones (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/j/james_l_jones/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the president’s national security adviser. “From the very first meeting, everyone started with set opinions. And no opinion was the same by the end of the process.”
The entire article (5 pages long): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/asia/06reconstruct.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw

It's a pretty long article, but a good overview on exactly how this decision was painstakingly made. Whether or not you love or hate Obama, this is a worthwhile read.

khaz
12-05-2009, 05:23 PM
Step 1 tell pelosi and the left its all smoke and mirrors we will send troops then surrender in 19 months.

Step 2 Have Rahm look for a good photo op location to make people think It was a somber decision,,, how about Arlington.

Step 3 Have my minions in the press write some propaganda errr articles about the tough decision.

Geezah
12-05-2009, 05:31 PM
Step 1 tell pelosi and the left its all smoke and mirrors we will send troops then surrender in 19 months.

Step 2 Have Rahm look for a good photo op location to make people think It was a somber decision,,, how about Arlington.

Step 3 Have my minions in the press write some propaganda errr articles about the tough decision.

My thoughts exactly...............

SoftLion
12-05-2009, 05:50 PM
My thoughts exactly...............
Indeed. His skepticism of the General's recommendation(s) is a testament to his ego.

Kit
12-05-2009, 06:58 PM
Indeed. His skepticism of the General's recommendation(s) is a testament to his ego.

Not sure how you can be skeptical of a General. A General's duty is to win wars and take care of his men. He's got little to gain but an unmeasurable amount to lose.

Soldat_Américain
12-05-2009, 07:05 PM
Indeed. His skepticism of the General's recommendation(s) is a testament to his ego.

So by your thinking Truman should have left well enough alone and followed the recommendation of MacArthur. You're an idiot.

SoftLion
12-05-2009, 09:17 PM
So by your thinking Truman should have left well enough alone and followed the recommendation of MacArthur. You're an idiot.

Listen kid, your "by your thinking" BS above is simply a disingenuous attempt at making a perceived point, and putting non-existent words in a stranger's mouth on an internet forum. Take your assumption and insults and shove them where the California sun doesn't shine, which may not be difficult, whatwith the homo-erotic avatar.

Were I to respond on topic, I would first point you to Kit's post above. Next, I would presume, based on what you said, that you support Obama's "victory" plan for Afghanistan.

Please enlighten the forum with more of your adolescent wisdom.

Soldat_Américain
12-05-2009, 09:52 PM
I don't support it. But the it is the President's job to be skeptical of his generals...to a point. Do you really think it is his ego, then that's about as well thought out of both our posts. What I think is going to happen is that a year from now we have made a lot of gains, but that the ANA will be nowhere near that it needed to be yesterday.

He like many presidents before him had to make a decision based on the strategic factors on the ground and the political factors at home and in the Congress. To me it seems he paid more heed to the political factors and the push by the other leaders of his party. I also believe that if chose to do so he could have put 60,000 more boots on the ground because there would be enough support from the Republicans and enough conservative moderate Democrats to fund the war without issue.

I could easily point to his predecessor as the reason why we are as far behind in Afghanistan that we are today, but you'd say I was Bush bashing. Do I believe that this strategy will create a victory, that is a possibility, but my humble opinion is that a year from now maybe even six months he'll have to make the decision to send more.

But I also find that our allies not trying to match the amount of soldiers we're going to put on the ground disheartening.

3rdMillhouse
12-05-2009, 10:10 PM
He began the process clearly skeptical of Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal’s request for 40,000 more troops, but the more he learned about the consequences of failure, and the more he narrowed the mission, the more he gravitated toward a robust if temporary buildup, guided in particular by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates.

Surely General McChrystal's technical and practical expertise pales in comparisson to Obama's in this matter.

*Sarcasm tag*

LineDoggie
12-05-2009, 10:32 PM
Truman at least had a Base of Experience as an Officer to work from, and by that time had had to make some of the roughest decisions ever (Bomb for one)

Obama organized "communities" and Voted Present......

SoftLion
12-06-2009, 12:16 AM
Surely General McChrystal's technical and practical expertise pales in comparisson to Obama's in this matter.

*Sarcasm tag*


Truman at least had a Base of Experience as an Officer to work from, and by that time had had to make some of the roughest decisions ever (Bomb for one)

Obama organized "communities" and Voted Present......

Indeed gentlemen.

Gunge
12-06-2009, 10:41 AM
if i remember correctly the Gen req 40 -80,000 more troops
why only 30,000?

over 2 months to make a (nat'l speech) decision?
i wonder whose advice he gives more creedence to ,a General's or his chief of staff and other lackeys

the Pres does not inspire confidence in me

JKD
12-06-2009, 11:20 AM
General McChrystal put the process pretty well I think:


"My position here is a little bit like a mechanic. We've got a situation with a vehicle and I've been asked to look at it and tell the owner what the situation is and what it will cost to make the vehicle run correctly and I will provide that," he said.

"Now I understand that the vehicle owner then has to make a decision on what the car is worth, how much longer he intends to drive it," he added. "Whether he wants it to look good or just run."

3rdMillhouse
12-06-2009, 11:32 AM
the Pres does not inspire confidence in me

Me neither, he strikes me as a coward that can't wait that political weight (Afghanistan) of his back.

LineDoggie
12-06-2009, 11:57 AM
General McChrystal put the process pretty well I think:
McCyrstal told him he needed 4 flats fixed and Obama only authorized 3

Mackie
12-06-2009, 12:07 PM
Truman at least had a Base of Experience as an Officer to work from, and by that time had had to make some of the roughest decisions ever (Bomb for one)

Obama organized "communities" and Voted Present......

And if he would be in the National Guard? A coward because he avoided combat? Sadly he have no Daddy send him to the save island.

JKD
12-06-2009, 12:13 PM
McCyrstal told him he needed 4 flats fixed and Obama only authorized 3

Thats where the second paragraph of the quote comes into play.

McChrystal's job is Afghanistan. The civilian leadership has to factor in other things.

LineDoggie
12-06-2009, 12:19 PM
And if he would be in the National Guard? A coward because he avoided combat? Sadly he have no Daddy send him to the save island.
I sorry I dont translate your gibberish, try Babelfish

JPBaz
12-06-2009, 03:20 PM
Listen kid, your "by your thinking" BS above is simply a disingenuous attempt at making a perceived point, and putting non-existent words in a stranger's mouth on an internet forum. Take your assumption and insults and shove them where the California sun doesn't shine, which may not be difficult, whatwith the homo-erotic avatar.

Were I to respond on topic, I would first point you to Kit's post above. Next, I would presume, based on what you said, that you support Obama's "victory" plan for Afghanistan.

Please enlighten the forum with more of your adolescent wisdom.


Nice response...very well reasoned. And what can I make of your "point" that the President's decision was based upon ego? Do you have first hand knowledge of his ego or is this just more name calling? So much for adult behavior on your part. I would guess that the Fox propaganda machine is getting to you. :roll:

I would hope that any decision to deploy our troops would be made after careful consideration by the CIVILIAN branch of our government, that is how it works. The comparison to Truman and MacArthur is relevant to the extent that it is the President's responsibility to be skeptical of all advice as he makes a decision like this. Please remember, General McChrystal was put in place on President Obama's watch. He seems to be the right choice for the job.

I too wish a decision had been made sooner, but I support the idea that the President took the time to make a complete decision. Our involvement in Afghanistan is ending no time soon. Putting Karzai on notice that we will not be around forever is not a bad thing. Telling the Afghan people that we have no intention of staying is a good thing in the context of fighting an insurgency.

For those interested (and not totally pissed off by my response :-)), Michael Yon posted a great assessment of the current situation in Afghanistan authored by Ret. General McCaffrey.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/pdf/aar-november2009-2.pdf

Although Gen. McCaffrey assessment does not coincide with all of the Presidents decisions, he begins by stating that the Presidents speech was "coherent, logical and sincere...the end result of a very deliberative and thoughtful analytical review...".

JPBaz
12-06-2009, 03:27 PM
double post...123456789

SoftLion
12-06-2009, 04:46 PM
Telling the Afghan people that we have no intention of staying is a good thing in the context of fighting an insurgency.

More, please more from the JPBaz insurgency manual.

JPBaz
12-06-2009, 04:58 PM
.............................

..........................................

SoftLion
12-06-2009, 05:02 PM
/\ /\ /\
How original

Dominique
12-06-2009, 05:14 PM
I'd really love to know how many of the warhawks on here are currently, or have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan? Because I see a whole lot of posting about how "we" should be doing this, that, or the other, but they're not the ones who'll be doing it.

As far as the stated plan goes, my personal opinion is closer to Soldat Americain's. I think well smack the hell out AQ and the Taliban, and the Afghan Army and police will be no where near ready to take over. But, from what's been stated so far, he'll only begin removing troops if the situation allows. We'll see.

seraosha
12-06-2009, 05:23 PM
I'd really love to know how many of the warhawks on here are currently, or have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan? Because I see a whole lot of posting about how "we" should be doing this...

I'd like to see that extended to each and every member of this forum.
Honestly, I rarely give a rats ass about an opinion on military matters from someone that hasn't served...likewise having some over enthusiastic BTDT asshole tell me my opinion is invalid because I'm not in the current theater just tells me that their ego is getting in the way of their keyboard.

Really, are we going to bust out some DD214s next?
Want to impress me with your latest ARCOM?

SoftLion
12-06-2009, 05:30 PM
I'd really love to know how many of the warhawks on here are currently, or have served in either Iraq or Afghanistan? Because I see a whole lot of posting about how "we" should be doing this, that, or the other, but they're not the ones who'll be doing it.


There are only two people that invoked, "we", in this thread.....

Dominique
12-06-2009, 06:45 PM
I'd like to see that extended to each and every member of this forum.

I don't have a problem with that, but this is the open area of the forums.


Honestly, I rarely give a rats ass about an opinion on military matters from someone that hasn't served...

On this we agree.


likewise having some over enthusiastic BTDT asshole tell me my opinion is invalid because I'm not in the current theater just tells me that their ego is getting in the way of their keyboard.

No one's saying their opinion isn't valid, but I tend to give a little more weight to those who are out there doing, than those who've never don it. And that's "Mr. A$$hole" to you sir, as we don't know each other well enough to be on a first name basis. ;)


There are only two people that invoked, "we", in this thread.....

In this thread, yes, but I can pull up a sh*t load of others where "we" is tossed around quite liberally by people who's only experience in uniform consists of asking "Would you like to try one of our combos today?"

LineDoggie
12-06-2009, 06:59 PM
Ok, I'll play......


Iraq 2004-2005
Baghdad TAOR

CIB awarded 20 April 2005 Orders # 088-25 256th BCT APO AE 09326 Signed by BG Basilica, John
Date or Period of Service: 19 January, 2005

PH awarded 4 July 2005 Orders# 182-04 3rd ID APO AE 09352 Signed by MG Webster, William G.
Date or Period of Service: 10 June, 2005 (IED)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/th_Cob-1.jpg (http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/Cob-1.jpg)

Dominique
12-06-2009, 07:22 PM
Ok, I'll play......


Iraq 2004-2005
Baghdad TAOR

CIB awarded 20 April 2005 Orders # 088-25 256th BCT APO AE 09326 Signed by BG Basilica, John
Date or Period of Service: 19 January, 2005

PH awarded 4 July 2005 Orders# 182-04 3rd ID APO AE 09352 Signed by MG Webster, William G.
Date or Period of Service: 10 June, 2005 (IED)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/th_Cob-1.jpg (http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/Cob-1.jpg)

LD, you don't count, as I know you've had you butt in the sand. And while I may not always agree with your opinions on a particular subject, at least you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, sign up and take your chances, and I respect that. The same goes for anyone else who's been there. As for the rest of you, if you get all butt hurt because I, or anyone else who is, or has served, could care less about the majority of what you have to say, boo eff'n hoo. But hey, if you guys are so gung ho, and are of military age, I can point you in the direction of a good recruiter.

SoftLion
12-06-2009, 07:36 PM
As for the rest of you, if you get all butt hurt because I, or anyone else who is, or has served, could care less about the majority of what you have to say, boo eff'n hoo.

You brought this up - you seem to the one butt-hurting about nothing. No one said you have to care about anything.

Dominique
12-06-2009, 08:08 PM
You brought this up - you seem to the one butt-hurting about nothing. No one said you have to care about anything.

I'm not mad about this particular thread, but I am tired of armchair generals, who sit safely in their homes, typing away on the internet, about what the US should do, when they're a) unwilling, or b) incapable of stepping up to the plate themselves. As I've said several times before, when it comes to the guys who've actually worn a uniform, I don't have to agree with them, but I do respect their opinion on the subject, as they've "earned" the right to bitch about it.

As to the original topic of this thread, I think it's a mistake to think we're going to start pulling out in 18 months, as I really don't believe the Afghans are going to be anywhere near ready. I also don't think a possible withdrawal date should have been announced, but I'm not running the show.

Hollis
12-06-2009, 08:17 PM
I like to keep in mind, friendly fire is never friendly.


There will always be a schism between those on the sharp end of the spear and those who are kept safe at home.

General Lee, sort of pointed this out too. I don't know what the answer is, but like others I will listen and when they come across as being chairborne commandos, I will turn my ears off and move on.


“It appears we have appointed our worst generals to command forces, and our most gifted and brilliant to edit newspapers. In fact, I discovered by reading news*papers that these editor/​geniuses plainly saw all my strategic defects from the start, yet failed to inform me until it was too late. “Accordingly , I’m readily willing to yield my command to these obviously superior intellects, and I’ll, in turn, do my best for the Cause by writing editorials — after the fact.”
– Robert E. Lee in 1863.



BTW, 18 months is like reviewing Gitmo for a year before closer. It is a political statement for the Peace freaks in the D's. 18 months from now is one hell of a way off.