Turkish Top Court bans Pro Kurdish Party

[thanamestolga]

Turkey's Constitutional Court has voted to ban the country's largest pro-Kurdish party because of alleged links with Kurdish separatist rebels.

Turkey's chief prosecutor Abdurrahman Yalcinkaya argued that the Democratic Society Party (DTP) took orders from the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).

The DTP is the latest in a series of pro-Kurdish parties to have been closed down in Turkey.

The case has been criticised by the EU, which Turkey hopes to join.

The 11 judges in the Constitutional Court ruled that the DTP had become a "focal point of activities against the indivisible unity of the state, the country and the nation", court president Hasim Kilic told reporters.

He said DTP leaders Ahmet Turk and Aysel Tugluk had been stripped of parliamentary immunity and banned from politics for five years along with 35 other party members.

All party assets would be seized by the treasury, Mr Kilic added.

The DTP holds 21 seats in Turkey's 550-member parliament.

Full Article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8408903.stm

[Ulytau]

Writing Pro-pkk will be good than pro-Kurdish because last checks from an university shows that clearly.

[Try&die]

Very good, now it's time for AKP:)

[thanamestolga]

Writing Pro-pkk will be good than pro-Kurdish because last checks from an university shows that clearly.

Haha, bro i dont want to get attacked by the forum thats why i wrote Pro Kurdish :)

x22222222222222 Try&Die, i want this AKP **** stain gone as well.

[cortico]

Another projection of Turkey's democratic deficit

[Ulytau]

Another projection of Turkey's democratic deficit

This decision became pretty effective too;


Batasuna banned permanently

Spain's Supreme Court has approved a government request to ban the Basque separatist Batasuna party permanently.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2857437.stm

Or maybe this can enlight too


The European Court of Human Rights, based in Strasbourg, has rejected the latest appeal brought by Batasuna

http://www.eitb.com/news/politic/detail/287883/european-court-of-human-rights-upholds-veto-on-batasuna/

kkthxbye.

[Try&die]

Another projection of Turkey's democratic deficit

The decision has been made in line with The European Court of Human Rights, so nothing wrong there. See also Ulytua's post.

Btw, I don't think you want a party who is representive for terrorists do you?

[Excalibur]

Writing Pro-pkk will be good than pro-Kurdish because last checks from an university shows that clearly.
are the members of this party found guilty in terrorist activity ? or perhaps it's just about turkish political lexicon - whenever Kurds dare talking of their rights and self determination they are automatically labeled as terrorists ?

[4X4Driver]

are the members of this party found guilty in terrorist activity ? or perhaps it's just about turkish political lexicon - whenever Kurds dare talking of their rights and self determination they are automatically labeled as terrorists ?

Actually, they've never denied their connections with the pkk and never condemned their actions, on the contrary, they've always praised their murderings. It was the "Political correctness" that allowed them to be in the parliament to see if they'll bring any solutions to the problems that they claim to have..for two and a half years, all they wanted was freedom for the jailed pkk leader.

So..quit defending these terrorists for your own anti Turkish agenda.

[Karaahmetoglu]

are the members of this party found guilty in terrorist activity ? or perhaps it's just about turkish political lexicon - whenever Kurds dare talking of their rights and self determination they are automatically labeled as terrorists ?


Or how about the members of this party have pictures of them with PKK, in PKK uniforms with PKK flags, or slogans. Or how they continue to lobby to get PKK off of terrorist lists around the world.

If you relace PKK with Al-Queda, and Turkey with U.S in this situation, would this party stand around for long?

DTP-----Disturbing The Peace

[4X4Driver]

Or how about the members of this party have pictures of them with PKK, in PKK uniforms


Oh yeah..forgot that. There are at least two DTP MP's who are are active pkk "guerilla" members and one has her husband in the pkk right now.

The reasons Batasuna was closed were much lighter.

Anyways...it's our business whatever pkk symphatisers think and say.

[Nickchios]

Here is a list with partys that was banned in Turkey.


İşçi-Çiftçi Partisi (İÇP) 1968,
Milli Nizam Partisi (MNP) 1971,
Türkiye İleri Ülkü Partisi (TİÜP) 1971,
Türkiye İşçi Partisi (TİP) 1971,
Büyük Anadolu Partisi (BAP) 1972,
Türkiye Emekçi Partisi (TEP) 1980,
Büyük Anadolu Partisi 1992,
Sosyalist Parti 1992,
Yeşiller Partisi 1994,
Halk Partisi 1991,
Türkiye Birleşik Komünist Partisi 1991,
Halkın Emek Partisi 1993,
Özgürlük Demokrasi Partisi 1993,
Sosyalist Türkiye Partisi 1993,
Demokrasi Partisi 1994,
Demokrat Parti-2 1994,
Demokrasi ve Değişim Partisi 1996,
Diriliş Partisi 1996,
Emek Partisi 1997,
Sosyalist Birlik Partisi 1994,
Refah Partisi 1998,
Demokratik Kitle Partisi 1999,
Fazilet Partisi 2001,
Halkın Demokrasi Partisi 2003

[Ulytau]

are the members of this party found guilty in terrorist activity ? or perhaps it's just about turkish political lexicon - whenever Kurds dare talking of their rights and self determination they are automatically labeled as terrorists ?

Yes founded

Some of members founded when they carrin stuff etc. to terrorists,drugs&heroin founded in their OFFICAL cars,1 week ago a girl lost her life after 28 days coma cause terror supporters attacked a Bus with molotov cocktails,oh magically molotov cocktails&firecrackers etc. founded in dtp building after police operation.

kkthxbye


about banned parties commie and who supportin extremism banned,even some of their members founded at some radical activities or tried to defend em.

[4X4Driver]

Here is a list with partys that was banned in Turkey.


Yep..and half of them closed due to their inactivity as a political party..in a way, they close themselves by being inactive. :)

Now again..this party was directly connected with a int'l recognized terror org and there should be nothing you can say to defend them.

[Nickchios]

That is a final decision or the Kurd Party can go to a higher level court ?

[Rastagir]

Here is a list with partys that was banned in Turkey.
İşçi-Çiftçi Partisi (İÇP) 1968,
Milli Nizam Partisi (MNP) 1971,
Türkiye İleri Ülkü Partisi (TİÜP) 1971,
Türkiye İşçi Partisi (TİP) 1971,
Büyük Anadolu Partisi (BAP) 1972,
Türkiye Emekçi Partisi (TEP) 1980,
Büyük Anadolu Partisi 1992,
Sosyalist Parti 1992,
Yeşiller Partisi 1994,
Halk Partisi 1991,
Türkiye Birleşik Komünist Partisi 1991,
Halkın Emek Partisi 1993,
Özgürlük Demokrasi Partisi 1993,
Sosyalist Türkiye Partisi 1993,
Demokrasi Partisi 1994,
Demokrat Parti-2 1994,
Demokrasi ve Değişim Partisi 1996,
Diriliş Partisi 1996,
Emek Partisi 1997,
Sosyalist Birlik Partisi 1994,
Refah Partisi 1998,
Demokratik Kitle Partisi 1999,
Fazilet Partisi 2001,
Halkın Demokrasi Partisi 2003


How many of those are "Kurdish" parties (or, at least, associated with kurds)? All? And what about the rest? The reasons they were banned?

[cortico]

How many of those are "Kurdish" parties (or, at least, associated with kurds)? All? And what about the rest?

There is a clear inclination towards banning Kurdish, Communist and radical Islamic parties...

[Try&die]

That is a final decision or the Kurd Party can go to a higher level court ?

Read the title again: Turkish Top Court bans Pro Kurdish Party. Got you answer?

[Try&die]

There is a clear inclination towards banning Kurdish, Communist and radical Islamic parties...

You sound like you know any of those parties. But somehow I think you don't know **** about any of those parties..

[cortico]

Read the title again: Turkish Top Court bans Pro Kurdish Party. Got you answer?

Chill out Rambo. Answer to what?

[Rastagir]

There is a clear inclination towards banning Kurdish, Communist and radical Islamic parties...


Just wondering because, if it a recurring phenomenon, why allow it on the first place?

[Nickchios]

Read the title again: Turkish Top Court bans Pro Kurdish Party. Got you answer?

Thanks for clearing that TD....

Admire your politeness....:)

I do not know the levels of your justice...... so calm down boy...

[Try&die]

Thanks for clearing that TD....

Admire your politeness....:)

I do not know the levels of your justice...... so calm down boy...

I am calm, just gave a hint. Nothing wrong with that son:)

[Ulytau]

How many of those are "Kurdish" parties (or, at least, associated with kurds)? All? And what about the rest? The reasons they were banned?

There is centre right parties too,as i check some of em closed because they didnt join elections more than 2 times.

[cortico]

Just wondering because, if it a recurring phenomenon, why allow it on the first place?

I think the basic pretext based on which parties are being de-legalized is that they resort to "terrorist" activity after some point. In fact, some of those parties actually have (The term "Terrorism" as defined in the "west")

[4X4Driver]

That is a final decision or the Kurd Party can go to a higher level court ?

That's the final decision for that party, but they can establish a new one and try again...they're already at it as of today. I just hope they learn from this and do better with the new party.

[Nickchios]

I am calm, just gave a hint. Nothing wrong with that son:)

Nice to read that.... for a moment i thought you are getting nervous....

In topic again....

A general question about the Kurd Party ban is, if Turkish government is waiting any escalation in SE Turkey where Kurds are the majority....

[Nickchios]

That's the final decision for that party, but they can establish a new one and try again...they're already at it as of today. I just hope they learn from this and do better with the new party.

Ok, understand...

and what will happen with the seats in Parliament ?

[Try&die]

Nice to read that.... for a moment i thought you are getting nervous....

In topic again....

A general question about the Kurd Party ban is, if Turkish government is waiting any escalation in SE Turkey where Kurds are the majority....

Well, today a group kurds tried to lynch a police officer.. and I just saw on the news a Otokar Akrep burst in vlames, because of the molotov-cocktails thrown. But these things happend before DTP was closed also...

[4X4Driver]

I think the basic pretext based on which parties are being de-legalized is that they resort to "terrorist" activity after some point. In fact, some of those parties actually have (The term "Terrorism" as defined in the "west")

It's because everyone..incl. the military looked the other way to give them a chance on the political platform (the parliament) but all they wanted was to free the pkk leader. When the state wanted help from them to solve the kurdish issue, they pointed to the pkk..in a way, they showed that they were no use to no one..except pkk.

[4X4Driver]

Ok, understand...

and what will happen with the seats in Parliament ?

I think the rest of the party can continue as an independent mps and re group under the new party when its established.

[Nickchios]

Well, today a group kurds tried to lynch a police officer.. and I just saw on the news a Otokar Akrep burst in vlames, because of the molotov-cocktails thrown. But these things happend before DTP was closed also...

Wow.... the Kurds did not took that decision well.......

Hope the officer is fine and most important....everybody will calm down and find a peaceful way to solve the problems...

[Ulytau]

Ok, understand...

and what will happen with the seats in Parliament ?

2 of em no more deputy other ones can continue without party and without having group because their deputy total.

Btw head of High Court was born in Sanliurfa and have Turkish-Kurd relatives in his family too,first he wanted closing dtp.

[4X4Driver]

A general question about the Kurd Party ban is, if Turkish government is waiting any escalation in SE Turkey where Kurds are the majority....

they've been rioting and burning everthing down for the last few weeks already in the name of "democracy" and freedom to the pkk leader.

remember though, this party got only little more than 2 mil. votes out of 15 mil estimated kurd population in Turkey.

So, if the gov't puts the political correctness aside, it's nothing that can't be dealt.

[Ulytau]

^^^^^^

Abi also some of people&tribes start to check their roots too from Ottoman Tax Archives :) Yusuf Halacoglu launch serious research about this issues. ''ex head of Turkish Historical Society and Historian''

There was mostly kids and police stop em with speaking,Adana Governor give serious message to families of kids and some kids said in Hakkari a man comes and saying he gonna give us money if they attack to police with stone.

[Nickchios]

Thanks guys for the clarifications....


this party got only little more than 2 mil. votes out of 15 mil estimated kurd population in Turkey.
What the rest Kurds are voting ?

Is there another Kurdish party in the parliament ?

[Try&die]

Mostly AKP I believe.

[Ulytau]

Thanks guys for the clarifications....

What the rest Kurds are voting ?

Is there another Kurdish party in the parliament ?

at some places beein mostly based of tribe issue but mostly they voting to centre right,AKP have more Turkish-Kurd deputy than dtp and this people supported operations aganist terror.

Also Independence deputies too like Kamer Genc ''Some deputies in AKP and dtp hates from him :roll: he is super opposition even when he is alone too'' there is no pro-pkk party except dtp,main problem they are connected with pkk&terror.

We never seen em when they speakin about education of girls,honour killings etc.

[4X4Driver]

Thanks guys for the clarifications....

What the rest Kurds are voting ?

The ones who puts religion ahead of their ethnicity Mostly AKP voters, there are even voters for the Turkish nationalist paty MHP and central left CHP.


Is there another Kurdish party in the parliament ?

There are other seperatist kurdish parties, but they are smaller and they're not in the parliament.

[Nickchios]

From BBC news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8409608.stm


MPs from a pro-Kurdish party say they will withdraw from Turkey's parliament in protest at the Constitutional Court ruling to dissolve their party.
The court voted on Friday to ban the Democratic Society Party (DTP) because of alleged links with Kurdish separatist rebels.
Turkey's largest pro-Kurdish party has 21 MPs, two of whom have been banned from politics for five years.
It is the latest in a series of pro-Kurdish parties to be closed down.
The EU, which Turkey hopes to join, has expressed concern over the ruling.
There have been clashes between Kurdish protesters and Turkish security forces in at least two eastern cities following the ban.

[4X4Driver]

From BBC news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8409608.stm

Their most recent decision (orderd by the pkk leader) to re group in the parliament.

[Nickchios]

Their most recent decision (orderd by the pkk leader) to re group in the parliament.

Wait.... i am confused.... now...

Otsalan is the leader of Kurdish party that was banned ?

[Try&die]

Wait.... i am confused.... now...

Otsalan is the leader of Kurdish party that was banned ?

The banned party is DTP, Ocalan is the leader of the PKK.

[4X4Driver]

Wait.... i am confused.... now...

Otsalan is the leader of Kurdish party that was banned ?


Hahaha.."Otsalan" that's a good one :)


As an "honorary" leader as referred by the DTP(kurd party) always. They wanted to free him and bring him to the parliament as a leader of the so called "Democratic Society Party" DTP.

"Politicians" in this "party" was handpicked by the pkk leader ocalan two and a half years ago when it was established for the first time.

[Nickchios]

Hahaha.."Otsalan" that's a good one :)


As an "honorary" leader as referred by the DTP(kurd party) always. They wanted to free him and bring him to the parliament as a leader of the so called "Democratic Society Party" DTP.

"Politicians" in this "party" was handpicked by the pkk leader ocalan two and a half years ago when it was established for the first time.

Where is the funny ?...

So.... you can say that Ocalan (or Otsalan) is unofficial leader of DTP ?

[4X4Driver]

Where is the funny ?...

So.... you can say that Ocalan (or Otsalan) is unofficial leader of DTP ?

Exactly..and DTP never denied this.

How come they came so far despite of this?

Have you ever heard of "Political Correctness"?

[Nickchios]

Exactly..and DTP never denied this.

How come they came so far despite of this?

Have you ever heard of "Political Correctness"?

Sure i have...

Also i have heard of "political mess" Turkey is living for decades now....

and the worst is that you have no signs of get out of that mess, especially with decisions like these..... unfortunately :-(

[4X4Driver]

Sure i have...

Also i have heard of "political mess" Turkey is living for decades now....

and the worst is that you have no signs of get out of that mess, especially with decisions like these..... unfortunately :-(

If you had any idea what's been happenin in Turkey regarding the kurd issue, you wouldn't be saying that ( actually, i think you still would)

I just hope you don't learn not to symphatise with the terrorists the hard way.

[Rastagir]

If you had any idea what's been happenin in Turkey regarding the kurd issue, you wouldn't be saying that ( actually, i think you still would)


Ok. Let's accept that. We are outsiders, you are an insider. As outsiders, we have been hearing of the "Kurdish problem" for years.


Why this problem remains? And it DOES remain, in one form, or the other. Any explanation on that?

[Nickchios]

If you had any idea what's been happenin in Turkey regarding the kurd issue, you wouldn't be saying that ( actually, i think you still would)

I just hope you don't learn not to symphatise with the terrorists the hard way.

For sure i am not leaving in Turkey.... so i can have an opinion as a third "eye".
First are the Turks, second are the Kurds, all others are third.....

I can not understand second phrase.... please explain....

[4X4Driver]

For sure i am not leaving in Turkey.... so i can have an opinion as a third "eye".
First are the Turks, second are the Kurds, all others are third.....

I can not understand second phrase.... please explain....

Just keep in mind that the pkk and ocalan still blames the Greeks for not being able to keep him in safety in Greek Embassy in Kenya.

[Ulytau]

^^^^

As i remember after that they attacked to Greek embassies etc. too.

[Rastagir]

^^^^

As i remember after that they attacked to Greek embassies etc. too.


Sure. But it wasn't a lasting problem. We hadn't had any problems with Kurds since then. Contrary to the "Kurdish" problem Turkey faces.


Still waiting for an answer why it's a lasting problem

[4X4Driver]

Sure. But it wasn't a lasting problem. We hadn't had any problems with Kurds since then.

Their leader is still in jail and will always remain there..and they'll never forget who is responsible of that.

terror will always eventually bite the hand that feeds it.



Contrary to the "Kurdish" problem Turkey faces.


Still waiting for an answer why it's a lasting problem

Simple..we're not in the agreement with pkk regarding the partitioning of our country.

..and since pkk doesn't represent most kurds, we don't have an kurdish problem, but rather pkk/terror problem.

[kawaiku]

So the problem then is a radical minority in a minority population inside of Turkey?

[Aor]

Their leader is still in jail and will always remain there..and they'll never forget who is responsible of that.


Yep and that is one of the reasons why there hasn't been a stop in the hostilities between Turks and Kurds both inside Turkey and outside it.



terror will always eventually bite the hand that feeds it.



Exactly, you cannot keep oppressive tactics against a people and expect no backlash. Terror, unfortunate as it may be, has a political agenda and background. Though the PKK has a communist background it also has nationalist roots. That is why all dealings against terrorism never address only the violence, but also the political agenda and the roots of the phenomenon.





Simple..we're not in the agreement with pkk regarding the partitioning of our country.

..and since pkk doesn't represent most kurds, we don't have an kurdish problem, but rather pkk/terror problem.

You forget the Kurdish autonomous region in N. Iraq. They have formed a successful administrative authority based on the ethnic Kurdish background that has not been involved in any terrorist activities and is on very good terms with Israel, Europe and the Americans. That is a beacon of Kurdish nationalism outside the reach of Turkey. Since the Kurdish question is an elemental question of national identity and a peoples right to self rule and freedom it can never be just a question of terrorism and the PKK for Turkey or any other country in the region.

[cortico]

Their leader is still in jail and will always remain there..and they'll never forget who is responsible of that.

terror will always eventually bite the hand that feeds it.




Simple..we're not in the agreement with pkk regarding the partitioning of our country.

..and since pkk doesn't represent most kurds, we don't have an kurdish problem, but rather pkk/terror problem.

That was a cheap way to discount the Kurdish issue. The Kurds amount to approximately 25 million all over the region, not only Turkey, and consist of the largest ethnic group in the world without a sovereign, independent country. Most of those Kurds (about 12-15 million) are located within the Turkish borders. If you seriously want to address the Kurdish issue, you need to consider allowing them to build their own country, even if this implies the partitioning of SE Turkey, which had been Kurdish anyway long before the Seltzuks showed up in the region.

I realize that in "imperialistic" terms this does not suit Turkey. But ethically the only choice is to set free from oppression (although progress has been made) millions of Kurds and allow them to govern themselves anyway they like. And i am not talking about the ones who have been successfully assimilated to the Turkish society.

[Ulytau]

^^^^^^^^

There was Turks before Seljuk Empire too,another thing so sorry we dont interest to split current Turkish borders,if they want they can go to Northern Iraq if they can solve problems with Arabs ''Sunni-Shia'' and Turkmens.

[4X4Driver]

That was a cheap way to discount the Kurdish issue. The Kurds amount to approximately 25 million all over the region, not only Turkey, and consist of the largest ethnic group in the world without a sovereign, independent country. Most of those Kurds (about 12-15 million) are located within the Turkish borders. If you seriously want to address the Kurdish issue, you need to consider allowing them to build their own country, even if this implies the partitioning of SE Turkey, which had been Kurdish anyway long before the Seltzuks showed up in the region.

I realize that in "imperialistic" terms this does not suit Turkey. But ethically the only choice is to set free from oppression (although progress has been made) millions of Kurds and allow them to govern themselves anyway they like. And i am not talking about the ones who have been successfully assimilated to the Turkish society.

It is much cheaper to defend terror against the people of Turkey under the mask of "self determination"

If i was true that all 12-15 million kurds wanted what you suggestion, we'd have a civil war long ago.

Untill we see all of them demanding the same thing as the minority pkk ideas, we have a terror problem.

[4X4Driver]

You forget the Kurdish autonomous region in N. Iraq. They have formed a successful administrative authority based on the ethnic Kurdish background that has not been involved in any terrorist activities and is on very good terms with Israel, Europe and the Americans. That is a beacon of Kurdish nationalism outside the reach of Turkey. Since the Kurdish question is an elemental question of national identity and a peoples right to self rule and freedom it can never be just a question of terrorism and the PKK for Turkey or any other country in the region.

That's pretty irrevalant with what our court decided lately, but of course I do understand why you're doing this:)

You should read more about what's going on in N.Iraq and many here know pkk is in N.Iraq wher they refer to it as an "safe heaven"

so..you should not get any lower just cause you don't like Turks.



Trouble in Kurdistan

By Andrew Lee Butters/Erbil (http://www.time.com/time/letters/email_letter.html)

Kurdistan has all the appearance of a budding market economy, with many of the appurtenances of Western capitalism.

But the safety and progress in northern Iraq has come at a cost — and the Kurdish government may be paying for it now. While the Kurdistan Regional Government has a parliament and a president, the administration of Kurdistan is carved up between two rival political parties the Kurdish Democratic Party (KDP) in Erbil and the adjoining Dohuk governorates, and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) in Suleymania Governorate. The two parties monopolize power in their respective territories, and their despotic tendencies threaten civil liberties and the fledgling democratic process, creating an environment that is rife with corruption and repression. Frustration at this dual monopoly appear to have been behind a violent outburst yesterday at Halabja, the town on which Saddam Hussein inflicted a barbaric chemical attack in 1988, killing 5,000. It was the anniversary of the atrocity, and the mob destroyed the government-sanctioned shrine to the victims of the attack.
While the KIU played a role in inflaming political debate ahead of the election by accusing their rivals of being American and Israeli stooges, the incident reflected the fact that the KDP and PUK rule Kurdistan in part by force and fear.

Police State



Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174457,00.html#ixzz0ZVbaiiTU (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174457,00.html#ixzz0ZVbaiiTU)

[BorisA]

has not been involved in any terrorist activities

Hosting and supporting a terrorist organization means nothing then? Wow, good that the USA, Greece and various other countries (including Turkey) who have rightnow troops in Afghanistan think differently. Poor Talibs that these news come too late for them.

N.Iraq hosts PKK camps, is an additional base for recruitment, a supply source and was (until recently) center of their "official" offices.

Oh...and Greece and South Cyprus also fit in this category with their support for the PKK. We haven't forgotten that. And it will come back to mind in the right moment.




I realize that in "imperialistic" terms this does not suit Turkey. But ethically the only choice is to set free from oppression (although progress has been made) millions of Kurds and allow them to govern themselves anyway they like. And i am not talking about the ones who have been successfully assimilated to the Turkish society.

Well cortico before i make you to cortito why dont you just start an initiative in your country (whatever it maybe) to establish a free kurdistan consisting of lands of yours? There they can be "free" and without "oppression"
unlike in the lands my ancestors conquered and defended sacrifizing their lifes.

[Nickchios]

Hosting and supporting a terrorist organization means nothing then? Wow, good that the USA, Greece and various other countries (including Turkey) who have rightnow troops in Afghanistan think differently. Poor Talibs that these news come too late for them.

N.Iraq hosts PKK camps, is an additional base for recruitment, a supply source and was (until recently) center of their "official" offices.

Oh...and Greece and South Cyprus also fit in this category with their support for the PKK. We haven't forgotten that. And it will come back to mind in the right moment.





Well cortico before i make you to cortito why dont you just start an initiative in your country (whatever it maybe) to establish a free kurdistan consisting of lands of yours? There they can be "free" and without "oppression"
unlike in the lands my ancestors conquered and defended sacrifizing their lifes.

Wow..... calm down wild guy and learn some geography if you want to participate in a discussion.....

There is not any south Cyprus.....

Give a call to UN or EC and you will find the correct name... Republic of Cyprus......a full member of UN and EC.... Ok ?

Remember.... you have a big problem inside Turkey, so try to solve it for you and your children if you want to live in peace and security.

Right time.......???? What are you saying there ? Is that any kind of threat or what ?.....

[BorisA]

Wow..... calm down wild guy and learn some geography if you want to participate in a discussion.....

There is not any south Cyprus.....

Give a call to UN or EC and you will find the correct name... Republic of Cyprus......a full member of UN and EC.... Ok ?

Remember.... you have a big problem inside Turkey, so try to solve it for you and your children if you want to live in peace and security.

Right time......???? What are you saying there ? Is that any kind of threat or what ?.....


My country calls it South Cyprus and for me as a citizen of Turkey there exists in the north of the island the Turkish Republic of Nothern Cyprus. Frankly we do not CARE what the EU, the UN or the Bingo Club of Pezevenkville thinks. And i have all the right in the world to get angry about this issue which has costed thousands of my countrymens lifes!

Yes we have a internal problem with a separatist terrorist group which YOUR country supported. Do no try to deny it...just remember in front of which countries embassy we caught Öcalan in Nairobi! At a time when the PKK was illegal and considered a terrorist organization by your "holy" EU!

PS at the topic. Also the EU recognized that the DTP had strings to the PKK and did not dissociate itself from that terror organization.

[Nickchios]

Hello...... do you know that you are not alone on that planet ?rofl

[BorisA]

Of course we are not alone on this planet but there is something like national sovereignity.

And if you would mind your own words and view why dont you start calling Macedonia by this name like the majority of the world countries? You know...you are not alone on this planet....:roll:

[Nickchios]

Read again the title of the topic and you will understand how off topic you are......:bash:

[Aor]

That's pretty irrevalant with what our court decided lately, but of course I do understand why you're doing this:)

Hey you said the Kurdish problem is a terror problem. It is not. You simply treat it as such. I don't see you refute anything I am saying.


You should read more about what's going on in N.Iraq and many here know pkk is in N.Iraq wher they refer to it as an "safe heaven"

You are contradicting yourself and you are making vague accusations against the Kurdish authority, Iraq the U.S and its allies stationed in Iraq.

If the PKK is spreading to N.Iraq, then the Kurdish problem clearly involves the Kurdish authority and national presence there and the Iraqi state as a whole. As such it has already reached a point way past domestic terrorism and involves the politics in N.Iraq and all power players in that country.



so..you should not get any lower just cause you don't like Turks.


I don't like fascists in general. Otherwise I like all nationalities, Turks included.



Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174457,00.html#ixzz0ZVbaiiTU (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174457,00.html#ixzz0ZVbaiiTU)

So? What if the two factions are squabbling among themselves. They have a distinct ethnic identity and a functioning political entity. All emerging states have labor pains. The Kurds have the most unproblematic region and political foundation in the entire country.

This argument has nothing to do with what I said earlier.
Hosting and supporting a terrorist organization means nothing then? Wow, good that the USA, Greece and various other countries (including Turkey) who have rightnow troops in Afghanistan think differently. Poor Talibs that these news come too late for them.

N.Iraq hosts PKK camps, is an additional base for recruitment, a supply source and was (until recently) center of their "official" offices.

Oh...and Greece and South Cyprus also fit in this category with their support for the PKK. We haven't forgotten that. And it will come back to mind in the right moment.

Since you like to put countries in a bag and make accusations lets say that last time I checked the Kurdish authority, Iraq and the U.S -that by the way supports the first two tooth and nail against their fight against terrorism - never made it to the terrorist countries lists as neither have Greece and Cyprus.


Of course we are not alone on this planet but there is something like national sovereignity.

And if you would mind your own words and view why dont you start calling Macedonia by this name like the majority of the world countries? You know...you are not alone on this planet...

i think you are referring to a dispute being settled by the U.N on a country called FYROM. Regardless, thanks for mentioning my provinces name. It always makes me happy to know how famous the birthplace of Aristotle is.

Nice derailing attempt. Reported.

[Hollis]

Nice derailing attempt. Reported.


Nice attempt from you too, Read the name of this thread.

We can get back on topic or..............

[BorisA]

South Cyprus provided Öcalan ID's and Greece tried to hide him in their embassy in Kenia. A leader of an internationally as a terrorist group labeled organization. Well if that is no support then i dont know how you can call it.

And, now on topic, the DTP is accused (now the 234324period time), also by the EU, to be supportive of the PKK.



PS wasn't there the rule that Greeks respectively Turks should not post in threads related to the other country or start topic related ?

[4X4Driver]

Hey you said the Kurdish problem is a terror problem. It is not. You simply treat it as such. I don't see you refute anything I am saying.

Never..we're always very careful distinguising between the "kurds" in general and the pkk. It is always you guys refer the terrorism in Turkey as "kurds"..and we understand very well why you'd want to equalize all kurds with the pkk's terrorism.



You are contradicting yourself and you are making vague accusations against the Kurdish authority, Iraq the U.S and its allies stationed in Iraq.

I'm sure you know this too..but knowing why you'd be deniying, I'll just present the facts for everyone else.

President of Kurdistan: We would not allow any country to attack PKK

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/14930 (http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/14930)

London, 27 February 2007 (KurdishMedia)



http://www.iraqupdates.com/images/icon_print.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow('http://www.iraqupdates.com/scr/preview.php?article=14930', 'PREVIEW', '800', '600', 'yes')) Print article (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow('http://www.iraqupdates.com/scr/preview.php?article=14930', 'PREVIEW', '800', '600', 'yes')) http://www.iraqupdates.com/images/icon_send.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow('http://www.iraqupdates.com/scr/sendfriend.php?article=14930', 'SEND', '400', '300', 'yes')) Send to friend (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow('http://www.iraqupdates.com/scr/sendfriend.php?article=14930', 'SEND', '400', '300', 'yes'))

The president of Kurdistan, Massuad Barzani, stated that the Kurdistan government would not allow any country to attack the PKK fighters stationed in southern Kurdistan.
Barzani’s response came, last Saturday, when was questioned by the journalists in the Kurdish city of Sulemani in a press conference, in which the US ambassador and Jalal Talabani, the Iraqi President, were present.
About 5000 PKK fighters are stationed in Qendil mount in southern Kurdistan. Turkish authorities claim that the PKK are a threat to the Turkish national security.




I don't like fascists in general.

Same here.. ;)


The Kurds have the most unproblematic region and political foundation in the entire country.

Anything compare to rest of the Iraq would seem like that...but the devil is in the detail.

Abuse of Power

Abuse of power is one of the main characteristics of the Kurdistan Regional Government's administration. Iraqi Kurds speak often of arbitrary arrest, torture, and enforced disappearances. Awene, one of the two independent newspapers in the region, reported an incident in which a driver, who was stopped for a routine traffic violation in Erbil, seriously wounded the policeman. Other police officers arrested the shooter and brought him to the hospital with their wounded colleague. A short time later, ten armed men in the uniform of the KDP's Zervani peshmerga unit stormed the hospital to remove the suspect, a member of their unit, in order to prevent the judiciary from processing him on a charge of attempted murder. In the process of their raid, the KDP's peshmerga wounded a civilian but suffered no consequences as this second victim was not a party member.[5] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn5)

The legal system of the region is both chaotic and compromised. There are five parallel judicial systems in Iraqi Kurdistan: the regular courts, state security courts to try political offences, military courts with jurisdiction over peshmerga forces, separate KDP and PUK party courts known as Komalayati (social) courts, and special tribal courts with jurisdiction only over the members of a certain tribe. With the exception of the regular courts that apply Iraqi laws, all the other courts are, in fact, illegal. Their judgments are arbitrary and often contradict the law. Komalayeti courts insure impunity for their members. For example, after a regular court sentenced PUK member Salih Muzali to life in prison for the murder of two sisters, PUK leader Jalal Talabani intervened to transfer the case to the Komalayati court, which set him free after the victims' families accepted a payment of US$170,000 "blood money."[6] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn6) Human rights organizations protested this intervention for his release.[7] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn7) According to Awene, sixty-eight suspects in crimes such as murder and robbery remain at large and under the protection of the KDP, PUK, and Socialist Party of Kurdistan.[8] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn8)

Politicians also intervene in judiciary staffing. Judicial appointments require prior approval by the leadership of the dominant parties. In an interview on the fifth anniversary of 9-11, Rizgar Hama Ali, the first judge to preside over the special Iraqi tribunal to try Saddam Hussein and the current member of the court of cassation in Iraqi Kurdistan, expressed reservations about the independence of the judicial system in Iraqi Kurdistan and suggested political party interference in judicial affairs "seriously endangers the integrity of courts."[9] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn9)

Rather than protect citizens, the courts have become a tool for political parties to harass and oppress them. I know. I suffered their arbitrary and politically-motivated judgments firsthand. On October 26, 2006, I was abducted by the KDP secret service and detained for nearly six months for publishing articles on corruption of the Barzani family and the ties between the late Mulla Mustafa Barzani—Masoud Barzani's father—and the Soviet KGB.[10] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn10) The investigative judge acted as a representative of the secret service and not of the judiciary. When I refused to sign a confession prepared by the KDP—nothing I had written was untrue and so I saw no reason to repudiate it—a KDP security official told me that the investigative judge could order torture to gain confessions from detainees. After two weeks, I did sign the confession after being deprived of water and food for several days. I was tried on December 19, 2006, before the state security court in Erbil. I did not receive prior notification of the trial which, at any rate, lasted less than fifteen minutes. I had no access to a lawyer and was not allowed to produce evidence. A security forces officer entered the courtroom to give the chief judge a letter. The judge sentenced me to thirty years in prison for having published two articles on the Internet. I was told later that the letter contained instructions as to the verdict and sentence.

Illegal treatment is, unfortunately, the rule rather than the exception in the Iraqi Kurdistan region's detention centers. Disappearances remain rife. The parliament's human rights committee acknowledges at least twenty-one disappearances since 2003.[11] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn11) Western human rights experts say that hundreds remain detained without trial in Kurdish prisons.[12] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn12) Local papers have reported unlawful detentions as recently as September 2006.[13] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn13) Appeals to Talabani and Barzani by relatives of persons detained by the political party militias, and subsequently disappeared, remain unanswered.

Torture is common. Ali Bapir, the head of the Islamic Group, told Hawlati, the region's other independent newspaper, that Kurdish security forces have crippled several dozen detainees in prison during torture sessions.[14] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn14) These prisons are funded indirectly by U.S. aid. One of my torturers told me that he was trained by U.S. experts in investigative techniques, but he seemed to prefer his own methods saying, "U.S. investigative methods cannot be effective in Iraqi Kurdistan."
Unfortunately, those techniques that Kurdish interrogators prefer sometimes culminate in murder. Since the establishment of Kurdish administration in 1991, there have been hundreds of unsolved political killings. Disappearances peaked during the 1994-97 Kurdish civil war.[15] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn15) The major political officials have refused calls to account for many of these summary executions or to return the bodies. Rather, summary detention and extrajudicial execution have continued, albeit with less frequency. In April 2002, for example, PUK security forces abducted Muhammad Ahmed al-Zahawi, a former member of the Kurdistan Human Rights Organization in Kalar.[16] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703#_ftn16) The Kurdistan Human Rights Organization had become a thorn in the government's side for its frequent abuse-of-power law suits against government officials.

http://www.meforum.org/article/1703 (http://www.meforum.org/article/1703)

[BorisA]

Nice post Driver. Lets see if reason will establish itself now in some folks minds...

[Aor]

If HOLLIS will allow me to answer I will post my response tomorrow.

If he regards your comments as thread derailment, then I guess you should get the same treatment I get.

[4X4Driver]

Nice post Driver. Lets see if reason will establish itself now in some folks minds...

You're an optimist..aren't you? :)

Don't worry though..he derailed the topic to N.Iraq deliberetly from the Turkish court's decision and he got a response.

I'm sure he'll still find something to say in defence of terrorist pkk against Turkey.

[Azatavrear]

Of course we are not alone on this planet but there is something like national sovereignity........

If you think that is important then Turkey must also respect Iraq’s National sovereignty. Every time Turkey sends troops into N Iraq (Iraqi Kurdistan) it is a declaration of war.

Kurdish leader Masud Barzani has been pleading to Turkey to settle the issue in a peaceful diplomatic manner, using dialog not cannons. The worst part is that Turkey does not want to discuss any alternatives but sees war as the only means of settling the problem. He also has said on his interview that Turkey has another reason for such rough position on KLP and that is to link PKK to Iraqi Kurdistan as evident by their behavior and their direct threats that make one think that the real target is the region itself.

Foreign Minister Zebari of Iraq has warned Turkey about incursion into Iraq on an interview with BBC and stressed to the seriousness of such action. He also blamed Ankara for not trying to find peaceful solution to the Kurdish militant problem.

In my opinion Turkey should make changes to its constitution so that the Kurdish ethnicity is recognized with basic rights like their language, education, and identity. That by itself will reduce the street protests and any sympathy for PKK.

[Aor]

You're an optimist..aren't you? :)

Don't worry though..he derailed the topic to N.Iraq deliberetly from the Turkish court's decision and he got a response.

I'm sure he'll still find something to say in defence of terrorist pkk against Turkey.

Have at least some intellect to post flame baits and insults via pm.

You are accusing me of supporting terrorism. Unacceptable, even from a known troll like you 4x4.


Never..we're always very careful distinguising between the "kurds" in general and the pkk. It is always you guys refer the terrorism in Turkey as "kurds"..and we understand very well why you'd want to equalize all kurds with the pkk's terrorism.


Bull. Kurdish oppression is known worldwide and has been mentioned time and again by countries, newspapers and international organizations globally. There is a Kurdish issue in Turkey involving millions and the PKK issue that is part of that. The DTP ban is proof that the problem is political, involves the question of national identity, human and political rights AND terrorism. All are connected.



I'm sure you know this too..but knowing why you'd be deniying, I'll just present the facts for everyone else.

President of Kurdistan: We would not allow any country to attack PKK

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/14930 (http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/14930)

London, 27 February 2007 (KurdishMedia)



http://www.iraqupdates.com/images/icon_print.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow('http://www.iraqupdates.com/scr/preview.php?article=14930', 'PREVIEW', '800', '600', 'yes')) Print article (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow('http://www.iraqupdates.com/scr/preview.php?article=14930', 'PREVIEW', '800', '600', 'yes')) http://www.iraqupdates.com/images/icon_send.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow('http://www.iraqupdates.com/scr/sendfriend.php?article=14930', 'SEND', '400', '300', 'yes')) Send to friend (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow('http://www.iraqupdates.com/scr/sendfriend.php?article=14930', 'SEND', '400', '300', 'yes'))

The president of Kurdistan, Massuad Barzani, stated that the Kurdistan government would not allow any country to attack the PKK fighters stationed in southern Kurdistan.
Barzani’s response came, last Saturday, when was questioned by the journalists in the Kurdish city of Sulemani in a press conference, in which the US ambassador and Jalal Talabani, the Iraqi President, were present.
About 5000 PKK fighters are stationed in Qendil mount in southern Kurdistan. Turkish authorities claim that the PKK are a threat to the Turkish national security.






So you are saying that the problems Turkey is facing with the Kurds are general, involve also legitimate political entities and countries as I've said and not limited to your country alone.

Thank you for making my point.

I will not comment the rest of your post since it is an attempt to vilify the Kurds in N.Iraq, with no regard to what we are discussing here.

[4X4Driver]

Knowing your kind...I'll just let you go on with your pro pkk/anti Turk rants and I'll just answer questions regarding the original topic. ;)

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

My country calls it South Cyprus and for me as a citizen of Turkey there exists in the north of the island the Turkish Republic of Nothern Cyprus. Frankly we do not CARE what the EU, the UN or the Bingo Club of Pezevenkville thinks.

Well that's a typical turkish behaviur. You Don't Respect the United Nations, NATo, E.U and the rest international organizations. You don't respect international law. That's why your so called "Democracy" ban political parties every now and then. Now you baned a kurdish party of 2 millions (your numbers) voters, some years ago you baned the party of your Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan!
A deomocracy ruled by Armed Forces, and "does not CARE what the EU, the UN or the Bingo Club of Pezevenkville thinks" as you said...
Thank you for pointing this...

[Rastagir]

Knowing your kind...I'll just let you go on with your pro pkk/anti Turk rants and I'll just answer questions regarding the original topic. ;)


On topic: Ok, the party is banned. Are there any arrests of party members on behalf of "allying with pkk"? And, honestly, since this tactic doesn't help much (since this has been done again and again and again) what do you propose on solving this problem? (if you aknowledge of having a problem, that is.....)

[BorisA]

If you think that is important then Turkey must also respect Iraq’s National sovereignty. Every time Turkey sends troops into N Iraq (Iraqi Kurdistan) it is a declaration of war.

Kurdish leader Masud Barzani has been pleading to Turkey to settle the issue in a peaceful diplomatic manner, using dialog not cannons. The worst part is that Turkey does not want to discuss any alternatives but sees war as the only means of settling the problem. He also has said on his interview that Turkey has another reason for such rough position on KLP and that is to link PKK to Iraqi Kurdistan as evident by their behavior and their direct threats that make one think that the real target is the region itself.

Foreign Minister Zebari of Iraq has warned Turkey about incursion into Iraq on an interview with BBC and stressed to the seriousness of such action. He also blamed Ankara for not trying to find peaceful solution to the Kurdish militant problem.

:cantbeli:

The kurdish autonom region in N.Iraq acts on its on against the sovereignity and integrity of Iraq! And you accuse us of undermining it? Of course you are an Armenian with an agenda just seeing what you want to see. You are on this topic as "objective" as the Greeks.
Furthermore like Driver posted the PKK uses North Iraq as a base and starting point for Terror attacks in Turkey. So where is the respect for the Turkish integrity and sovereignity by permitting this? Where?
We have no other choice than to act,even if it means to go into kurdi-disneyworld North Iraq. And by doing so we just follow the same path like the USA, which your country also supports in Afghanistan for the very same reason. You hypocrite "whatever"....


In my opinion Turkey should make changes to its constitution so that the Kurdish ethnicity is recognized with basic rights like their language, education, and identity. That by itself will reduce the street protests and any sympathy for PKK.

If you would have any clue about the situation in Turkey you wouldn't had written this. Turkey improved and only unaware people (or with biased view) deny it :roll:




Well that's a typical turkish behaviur. You Don't Respect the United Nations, NATo, E.U and the rest international organizations. You don't respect international law. That's why your so called "Democracy" ban political parties every now and then. Now you baned a kurdish party of 2 millions (your numbers) voters, some years ago you baned the party of your Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan!
A deomocracy ruled by Armed Forces, and "does not CARE what the EU, the UN or the Bingo Club of Pezevenkville thinks" as you said...
Thank you for pointing this...

Now i need to thank you for ignoring the mishaps of your own country like supporting a terrorist organization even though the union (the EU) of which you are a member condems it as terrorist group. By supporting this group you also acted against the UN charta!
Well again hyprocrite behaviour at its best. And we see more regarding Macedonia and YOUR veto against it even if the whole NATO was in favour of its membership!
And banning parties is not a Turkish phenomenon but was (and is to a lesser degree) also present in Europe. First acquiere a little knowledge on the subject before making ***** comments.

[m.i.t]

On topic: Ok, the party is banned. Are there any arrests of party members on behalf of "allying with pkk"? And, honestly, since this tactic doesn't help much (since this has been done again and again and again) what do you propose on solving this problem? (if you aknowledge of having a problem, that is.....)


You posted a lot of antiTurkey comments in all forum. You should take a breake.

No one can have relations with terorists or violent organziations according to Turkish laws included political parties.

Also all national socialist parties are banned in all europe due to have extremme political violent tendency . If any one has problem about poltical life only nonviolent methods are legal .

Anarchy and gory teror are definetly unacceptable . So this is the main reason excistece of the laws and courts .

[Rastagir]

You posted a lot of antiTurkey comments in all forum. You should take a breake.

You can always report me, if that's what you believe. Leave a third party to decide whether I am flaming or not.


No one can have relations with terorists or violent organziations according to Turkish laws included political parties.

Also all national socialist parties are banned in all europe due to have extremme political violent tendency . If any one has problem about poltical life only nonviolent methods are legal .

Anarchy and gory teror are definetly unacceptable . So this is the main reason excistece of the laws and courts .

I do not disagree whith what you say.

But you are still not answering my questions. Since the DTP is accused of having relations with PKK terrorists, are there any arrests of it's members? And, since your country has a problem (unless you don't think it does) do you believe that the course of action you are following is correct, and if it is, how is that the problem isn't solved? Have you anything you want to add to your coutry's policies regarding the Kurds or do you think what it does is enough?

[4X4Driver]

But you are still not answering my questions. Since the DTP is accused of having relations with PKK terrorists, are there any arrests of it's members?

No arrests..


And, since your country has a problem (unless you don't think it does) do you believe that the course of action you are following is correct, and if it is, how is that the problem isn't solved? Have you anything you want to add to your coutry's policies regarding the Kurds or do you think what it does is enough?

Ok..so let's try to be sincere and honest. Assuming that you know and sincerely approve the improvements being done in the last 10 years or so (recognizing their ethnicity officially, lifting of language restrictions, broadcasting rights, private schools in their language - official schools to come- and most importantly, despite of their connections with a terror org., having an ethic kurd party in the parliament with the hopes of getting help from them to improve all for the better)

The reason everyone looked away and accepted this pkk connected party to the parliament was that they'll help the state to address the issues that state could not do alone without their initiative. Which are; abolishment of traditional tribal/feodal kurdish way of life..which gives way to things such as ; honor killings, preventing of girls' education, selling of brides, land reform (the leader of this party is one of the biggest landlord in the region)

This party spent two and a half years in the parliament and did nothing but asking freedom to the pkk leader..none of the issues was brought to the parliament, on the contrary, everytime other parties questioned them about such issues, they escalate terror in the region and blocked such improvement attempts in the parliament.

This cleary showed everyone that this party was not in the political platform to address the issues they claim to improve for the kurds...their aim was to break up the country.

They don't represent the 12-15 mil. kurds in Turkey and once the pkk is eliminated with the traditional way of fighting terrorism, we'll clearly see how much actually this party has support..any party with a armed terror group support will get quite a lot of unwilling voters...I'm sure no one can deniy that.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Well that's a typical turkish behaviur. You Don't Respect the United Nations, NATo, E.U and the rest international organizations. You don't respect international law. That's why your so called "Democracy" ban political parties every now and then. Now you baned a kurdish party of 2 millions (your numbers) voters, some years ago you baned the party of your Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan!
A deomocracy ruled by Armed Forces, and "does not CARE what the EU, the UN or the Bingo Club of Pezevenkville thinks" as you said...
Thank you for pointing this...

When does Turkey not respect NATO?

So housing a internationally recognized terrorist groups leader (who had an Interpol arrest warrant), in one of your embassies in Kenya is respecting international laws?

It is Turkey with a capital T not lowercase, you seem to not forget it in NATO, UN, EU though.

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

Now i need to thank you for ignoring the mishaps of your own country like supporting a terrorist organization even though the union (the EU) of which you are a member condems it as terrorist group. By supporting this group you also acted against the UN charta!
Well again hyprocrite behaviour at its best. And we see more regarding Macedonia and YOUR veto against it even if the whole NATO was in favour of its membership!
And banning parties is not a Turkish phenomenon but was (and is to a lesser degree) also present in Europe. First acquiere a little knowledge on the subject before making ***** comments.

Dear @Boris i could very easily answer, but if you look at the topic title you will find out that its about " Turkish Top Court bans Pro Kurdish Party
What does FYROM (NATO recognize it as FYROM) has to do with the subject?
You can start a new thread about that if you want and i will be glad to answer you, but in this thread you must stay on topic.


When does Turkey not respect NATO?

So housing a internationally recognized terrorist groups leader (who had an Interpol arrest warrant), in one of your embassies in Kenya is respecting international laws?

It is Turkey with a capital T not lowercase, you seem to not forget it in NATO, UN, EU though.
Same hear. You want to start a new thread about Ocalan, PKK, Greece and Kenya? Go ahead. This thread is about Turkey's "Democracy", so stay on topic please.
P.S: I always write "Turkey" with capital "T". The word i wrote with "t" is "turkish". Its not the same...

[Rastagir]

No arrests..



Ok..so let's try to be sincere and honest. Assuming that you know and sincerely approve the improvements being done in the last 10 years or so (recognizing their ethnicity officially, lifting of language restrictions, broadcasting rights, private schools in their language - official schools to come- and most importantly, despite of their connections with a terror org., having an ethic kurd party in the parliament with the hopes of getting help from them to improve all for the better)

The reason everyone looked away and accepted this pkk connected party to the parliament was that they'll help the state to address the issues that state could not do alone without their initiative. Which are; abolishment of traditional tribal/feodal kurdish way of life..which gives way to things such as ; honor killings, preventing of girls' education, selling of brides, land reform (the leader of this party is one of the biggest landlord in the region)

This party spent two and a half years in the parliament and did nothing but asking freedom to the pkk leader..none of the issues was brought to the parliament, on the contrary, everytime other parties questioned them about such issues, they escalate terror in the region and blocked such improvement attempts in the parliament.

This cleary showed everyone that this party was not in the political platform to address the issues they claim to improve for the kurds...their aim was to break up the country.

They don't represent the 12-15 mil. kurds in Turkey and once the pkk is eliminated with the traditional way of fighting terrorism, we'll clearly see how much actually this party has support..any party with a armed terror group support will get quite a lot of unwilling voters...I'm sure no one can deniy that.


First of all: I appreciate the answer. We do not agree on many things but a willingness to discuss is more than welcome.

Another question: Since there have been no arrest, why not? If a judge decides to close an entire party on the grounds of ties with PKK, there must be evidence linking members of the party with terrorists. Are there no arrests in order to avoid escalation?

I accept your (and, I guess, the judge's) view on why DTP was to be banned. Stands to reason, according to your analysis. I just don't get the timing of this happening. Just one week after Turkey's evaluation from EU and in a time when AKP, your government, was trying to normalise relations with the Kurds. Knowing the bad relationship between AKP and the so-called "Deep State" in Turkey, one wonders whether this happens to weaken the current government and "sabotage" Turkey's European bid. I do not know what the reaction of AKP was on the banning (maybe you can enlighten us on this). It would have been more logical if there was a period of waiting for the current government to continue on it's current path which have bear fruit (I remember recently PKK members surrendering but not procecuted). One could say "enough was enough" but I don't really see how banning a party connected with PKK doesn't lead to escalation anyway and how this will stop PKK's attacks. What an outsider sees is a country not in conflict with extremist Kurds alone, but a country who's own higher authorities are in conflict with each other.

I am not saying that what I say is accurate or "the way things are". What I am saying is how an outsider perceives the situation: A problem perpetuating and when steps are made to remedy the situation, someone else comes along and everyone gets back to square one.

No one expects the whole matter to be resolved overnight and the improvements being done in the last 10 years or soyou mentioned are appreciated. I do not know what views you have on the matter and if you see any other way of resolving the situation besides what's happening now (and has happened before). If you believe that "this is the way things are and there is nothing we can do about it" then, ok, it's your opinion, your country and that's respected.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Same hear. You want to start a new thread about Ocalan, PKK, Greece and Kenya? Go ahead. This thread is about Turkey's "Democracy", so stay on topic please.
P.S: I always write "Turkey" with capital "T". The word i wrote with "t" is "turkish". Its not the same...

Curiously, it seems the certain members of this forum that are questioning Turkey's policies right now are greeks (see it comes out as a spelling error with correction to make it a capitol G). What we are responding to, is how is Greece any better in their policies regarding the same issues. In layman terms I am purposing that people in who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.

You still did not answer my question how Turkey disrespects Greece as you have earlier stated? Somehow NATO fits in this topic of debate right now about how a political party in Turkey is being closed down? Anyways since you have stated it, how does Turkey not respect NATO?

[Clearday-TRForce]

That case has been started at 16 November 2007 by the Chief Public Prosecutor's application to the top court alleged of DTP is the became center of actions against Turkey's inseparable unity.

1- Turkish Constitutional Court (top legal authority) has decided to shut down DTP due to ties with the terrorist organization PKK

2- 37 DTP Executives,including DTP Chairman and MP were banned from politics for 5 years.

3- The Kurdish party had only total of 21 seats in the 550-seat assembly before the court shut it down.


Actually we as citizens of Turkey have been waiting such a conclusion due to DTP's increased separist actions,speeches.

What else can the court do when there are party administrators who declare the terrorist organisation to be their reason of existence.

This is crystal clear for all of us. They,DTP has already accepted it.


Best regards,
CDTRF

[Nickchios]

That case has been started at 16 November 2007 by the Chief Public Prosecutor's application to the top court alleged of DTP is the became center of actions against Turkey's inseparable unity.

1- Turkish Constitutional Court (top legal authority) has decided to shut down DTP due to ties with the terrorist organization PKK

2- 37 DTP Executives,including DTP Chairman and MP were banned from politics for 5 years.

3- The Kurdish party had only total of 21 seats in the 550-seat assembly before the court shut it down.


Actually we as citizens of Turkey have been waiting such a conclusion due to DTP's increased separist actions,speeches.

What else can the court do when there are party administrators who declare the terrorist organisation to be their reason of existence.

This is crystal clear for all of us. They,DTP has already accepted it.


Best regards,
CDTRF

Hi CD TR.... nice to see you again after a long time....:)

You said DTP accepted....... what else can they do ?p-)

As i heard Kurdish people are in the roads demostrating against.....so Kurdish people did not accepted well..... We (you) will see if the ban decision is correct or not....

[Clearday-TRForce]

Hi CD TR.... nice to see you again after a long time....:)

You said DTP accepted....... what else can they do ?p-)

As i heard Kurdish people are in the roads demostrating against.....so Kurdish people did not accepted well..... We (you) will see if the ban decision is correct or not....


Dear Nickchios,


Thank you for "hi". Glad to meet you again.

Well, Actually I hard to understand of your explanation about "kurdish people".

DTP is not representing all Turkish Kurds. DTP had only total of 21 seats in the 550-seat assembly. (%0,038) and there are more turkish kurds in other parties as well and working peacefully in CHP,MHP and AKP. At least I have not seen any protesting in Istanbul. Maybe minimal some streets, or maybe some places in east. I don't know.But I do not find it serious...very normal...

I fully support the TOP COURT's decision and this decision is not taken very easily,long time worked on it and this was the final road for DTP who can not keep their way in peace and unity. This people has given them seats in assembly and they have choosed to be a part of mountain terrorist group at politic life. It is totally unacceptable.

There is a country here...laws...rules...



best regards,
CDTRF

[Nickchios]

Hmmm.... i have to correct you in the maths.... you did a typo mistake ?

The correct is 3.8%.....

Yes, you are right.... there is country there... but with a huge internal political problem, doing everything he can to keep it in first line....

That is my point of view..... and as i read everywhere, EU and USA did not took it very well... (i mean the ban decision).

Another question is: Erdogan, the PM of Turkish Republic and his party, how they reacted on that decision?


@T&D....I am talking with people who can have a civil conversation about the topic.... and you are not such a person.

Sorry, i reported your post......

[Try&die]

@TD....I am talking with people who can have a civil conversation.... and you are not such a person.


Very good of you, you got the message.:) It is called selfownage.

[cortico]

It is much cheaper to defend terror against the people of Turkey under the mask of "self determination"

If i was true that all 12-15 million kurds wanted what you suggestion, we'd have a civil war long ago.

Untill we see all of them demanding the same thing as the minority pkk ideas, we have a terror problem.

What is being masked here is your oppression towards millions of Kurds. Masked behind a facade of "countering terrorism". You can save it for internal consumption, international observers simply don't buy that rhetoric anymore.

If you allow them their holy right to self-determination, PKK or similar organizations won't have a reason to exist. Realistically, i don't expect such an attitude from Turkey, that always adopts a maximalistic approach in foreign policy.

[cortico]

Nickchios, how dare you to talk about the streets in Turkey, while your own country is a mess right now? Go have a look in Athens and then come back or just STFU:)

Hold those horses cowboy. Lets show the world that Greek and Turks can have a normal conversation without turning it into a pissing contest. :hug:

[Try&die]

Why should I hold my horses when it comes to Greece. Afraid that your own mess comes to light? Don't come with excuses like normal conversation and pissing contests, because when you have the oppertunity, you take full advantage. Stop acting.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Hmmm.... i have to correct you in the maths.... you did a typo mistake ?

The correct is 3.8%.....

Yes, you are right.... there is country there... but with a huge internal political problem, doing everything he can to keep it in first line....

That is my point of view..... and as i read everywhere, EU and USA did not took it very well... (i mean the ban decision).

Another question is: Erdogan, the PM of Turkish Republic and his party, how they reacted on that decision?


@T&D....I am talking with people who can have a civil conversation about the topic.... and you are not such a person.

Sorry, i reported your post......



Every country has some problems...such as your country has too...great economic problems and social. You are very well aware of it. On the other hand a reaction of EU and USA is not taken so serious by us. We have power to rule our decision on our country.

The reaction of Erdogan is not importance here because there is a TOP COURT decision and no one can say anything instead of top court.


thanks,
CDTRF

[cortico]

Why should I hold my horses when it comes to Greece. Afraid that your own mess comes to light? Don't come with excuses like normal conversation and pissing contests, because when you have the oppertunity, you take full advantage. Stop acting.

You should hold your horses because you are losing your temper and resort to monuments of literature like SHYTE, STFU and so forth.

Noone is afraid of our own mess. Want to talk about the Greek mess? Open up a new thread. Our topic here is about Turkey and the Kurds. Fairly simple to grasp i suppose.

[Clearday-TRForce]

What is being masked here is your oppression towards millions of Kurds. Masked behind a facade of "countering terrorism". You can save it for internal consumption, international observers simply don't buy that rhetoric anymore.

If you allow them their holy right to self-determination, PKK or similar organizations won't have a reason to exist. Realistically, i don't expect such an attitude from Turkey, that always adopts a maximalistic approach in foreign policy.



Cortico, these are your opinions and a wish desire....We have no any problem with any Turkish Kurd here. Who cares international observers?

are these international observers has observed million deaths in Iraq,afghanistan...bosnia...? are these international observers has observed bans to mosques in Sweden?...many things...so if you want to approach problems mutually,you welcome otherwise we have found it one-sided things.No more.

so please do not sell your goods to us here using favourite star bonus words related to human rights - international observers - bla bla things....

you must be firstly "fair" to all sides. You are not writing a ban in Spain to Eta members,parties...why? or elsewhere...don't make us fool by genious well selected words like "observers...etc".



regards,
CDTRF

[Try&die]

You should hold your horses because you are losing your temper and resort to monuments of literature like SHYTE, STFU and so forth.

Noone is afraid of our own mess. Want to talk about the Greek mess? Open up a new thread. Our topic here is about Turkey and the Kurds. Fairly simple to grasp i suppose.

Are you a psychologist or something, how can you judge me.I am not losing my temper, and that is the way I talk. I dont give a **** if you like it or not. Here, I did it again:)

I can't open up a new thread, because the mods don't allow us to open a thread about the other. ( Greek-Turkish related )

It is strange to say things about a country, while your own country has a similar or maybe worse situation. Don't you think? ( referring to Nickchios and his kurds on the streets:) )

[Nickchios]

Every country has some problems...such as your country has too...great economic problems and social. You are very well aware of it. On the other hand a reaction of EU and USA is not taken so serious by us. We have power to rule our decision on our country.
The reaction of Erdogan is not importance here because there is a TOP COURT decision and no one can say anything instead of top court.
thanks,
CDTRF

It is better to have economic problems temporaryp-) than to have a guerrilla warfare in a huge party of your own country with armed and angry people in mountains and cities and that dangerous situation for decades....:-(

And the worst is that there is not any sign of a peaceful agreement with such offensive decisions of your high court.....

[Try&die]

And the worst is that there is not any sign of a peaceful agreement with such offensive decisions of your high court.....

The court made it's decisions on facts. What you basicly say is, You rather have peace ( define peace.. ) and let a party have connection with terrorists, then having riots and stuff and close a party because of the connection with terrorists.

You know what that is called? Political correctness.. 4X4Driver has explained it before, read it.

[Clearday-TRForce]

It is better to have economic problems temporaryp-) than to have a guerrilla warfare in a huge party of your own country with armed and angry people in mountains and cities and that dangerous situation for decades....:-(

And the worst is that there is not any sign of a peaceful agreement with such offensive decisions of your high court.....



How well to see your manner to our some problems with warm approach. p-)

If someone want to be part of mountain terrorist group. So they will take what they want.

You criticize a decision of "top court". You welcome but we very much think they have taken a right decision. DTP has already accepted of their roots tie to terrorist group. So how can a country to watch all these party actions in front of their people? how do you think if the top court can not take a decision like that even the normal citizens will not be part of it?

So it is an important and right decision. We have waited it...and got it. I hope some %3,8 (very norrow) supporters choose peacefull admins in assembly to deal problems in ordinary political life. Terrorism is old weapon. There is no place for terrorism in modern life.



thanks,
CDTRF

[Nickchios]

The court made it's decisions on facts. What you basicly say is, You rather have peace ( define peace.. ) and let a party have connection with terrorists, then having riots and stuff and close a party because of the connection with terrorists.
You know what that is called? Political correctness.. 4X4Driver has explained it before, read it.

You see ?..... It is not impossible even for you to post on topic...:):)

I am glad for you td..... It is the first on topic post after a long time and heavy efforts...

and the first off topic from my part....:-(:-( I am really sorry.

[4X4Driver]

First of all: I appreciate the answer. We do not agree on many things but a willingness to discuss is more than welcome.

Cool..You've raised some valid points and I'll try to answer..but my answers will be mostly whaty's happening on the ground related with the situation, rather then making my own comments/conclutions (execpt the ones that will need deeper explanation then what meets the eye)

But in any case, the more I answer, the more you'll be confused..but you're not alone on this..millions are in the same situation in Turkey trying to figure out what this gov't is trying to do.


Another question: Since there have been no arrest, why not? If a judge decides to close an entire party on the grounds of ties with PKK, there must be evidence linking members of the party with terrorists. Are there no arrests in order to avoid escalation?

I accept your (and, I guess, the judge's) view on why DTP was to be banned. Stands to reason, according to your analysis. I just don't get the timing of this happening. Just one week after Turkey's evaluation from EU and in a time when AKP, your government, was trying to normalise relations with the Kurds. Knowing the bad relationship between AKP and the so-called "Deep State" in Turkey, one wonders whether this happens to weaken the current government and "sabotage" Turkey's European bid. I do not know what the reaction of AKP was on the banning (maybe you can enlighten us on this). It would have been more logical if there was a period of waiting for the current government to continue on it's current path which have bear fruit (I remember recently PKK members surrendering but not procecuted). One could say "enough was enough" but I don't really see how banning a party connected with PKK doesn't lead to escalation anyway and how this will stop PKK's attacks. What an outsider sees is a country not in conflict with extremist Kurds alone, but a country who's own higher authorities are in conflict with each other.

There were no arrests of the DTP mps despite of their clear connection with the pkk..but as you pointed out, a group of terrorists surrended just a few weeks ago and they were not arrested either. We're fighting the pkk on the mountains..dying, killing, but we cannot arrest them when they surrender. OK we have a law saying if they surrender willingly and show remorse, they will not get arrested..but this group said exactly the opposite and still walked free. This happened because of the political correctness of this gov't and their pressure on the local judges...but now they also saw this fukup since it kicked off the vilolent protests of the pkk sysphatisers around the country and in the region. Interesting huh? pkk walks free but the violence escalates..clearly, pkk and their symphatisers don't like this "political correctness"

As CD mentioned, this case started almost two years ago..little after this party came into parliament, but ppl of Turkey incl. the high court wanted to see if these ppl will offer anything more than asking for öcalan's freedom from the day one..they sit there and watched if they'll contribute positivelly..nothing..non of the issues I've mentioned before was brought up by these ppl to the parliament...instead, the more state gave, the more violent they got. Time came recently, they started to say " don't talk to us..talk to pkk and öcalan" This was clearly declaring that they have no function what's so ever in the problem solving, instead, the more they pointed to pkk and öcalan, the more ppl of Turkey became frustrated. So it's not a coincidence or "deep state" work that high court decided to take up the case recently..the DTP has already declared it self useless and by trying to force the state to negociate with pkk, rest of the country was getting unrest. BTW, the deep state you guys always refer to is not the same deep state any longer..this gov't has established it's own deep state accordingly with their ideology in the last 7 and a half years and they'll not do anything to hurt this gov't..but in the long run you guys will wish that the old "deep state" was still around :)

It has nothing to do with the EU evaluation either..no body wants to hear about the EU now..many believes that it's the EU that motivated this gov't for showing so much tolarance against the pkk and their supportets. Even the AKP don't give a **** about the EU..esp. now that they've achived their goal of pacificizing military intervening such problems, with the help of EU. If military indicates making a move, they'll run back to EU..you can count on that, but military is definetely NOT going to do anything jst to expose the ****ups of this gov't..and it works so far.



I am not saying that what I say is accurate or "the way things are". What I am saying is how an outsider perceives the situation: A problem perpetuating and when steps are made to remedy the situation, someone else comes along and everyone gets back to square one.

No one expects the whole matter to be resolved overnight and the improvements being done in the last 10 years or soyou mentioned are appreciated. I do not know what views you have on the matter and if you see any other way of resolving the situation besides what's happening now (and has happened before). If you believe that "this is the way things are and there is nothing we can do about it" then, ok, it's your opinion, your country and that's respected.

The problem will be on the solution path when we have a kurdish party in the parliament with no connections to pkk..deannouncing their terrorism and becomes a Turkey's party...not only a kurd party. When they have such a vision, they'll see that the situaiton amongs kurds (as I mentioned in my previous post) is the root of the problems and when they address these problems sincerely, many things will almost automatically get on the correct path. In short, they have to work for the Turkey's better future as Kurds with the Turks in general.

[Try&die]

You see ?..... It is not impossible even for you to post on topic...:):)

I am glad for you td..... It is the first on topic post after a long time and heavy efforts...

and the first off topic from my part....:-(:-( I am really sorry.

Why can't you reply on my posts Nickchios? Why do you come with **** like this? Haha, you know exactly in what mess you find yourself in if you do. Stop making a fool of yourself and stop posting in this thread.

And no, don't use on-topic card.

[4X4Driver]

What is being masked here is your oppression towards millions of Kurds. Masked behind a facade of "countering terrorism". You can save it for internal consumption, international observers simply don't buy that rhetoric anymore.

Why not? they're buying your oppression of the minorities...

The only difference, they've not pickup arms to ask for their recognition. When they get the go ahead, we'll see how you're reacting.


If you allow them their holy right to self-determination, PKK or similar organizations won't have a reason to exist. Realistically, i don't expect such an attitude from Turkey, that always adopts a maximalistic approach in foreign policy.

It's a terror organization who asks for such self determination..I see you agree with them.

[Nickchios]

How well to see your manner to our some problems with warm approach. p-)


I do not remember if i told you before..... that:

I was drinking coffee here in Chios.....2 or 3 years ago in the beach and i heard a bomb explosion in Cesme.....Same day bombs explode in Kusadasi, Izmir and other coastal places, but of course i heard only the one in Cesme...

So, as you can see i am interesting about the situation in Turkey, it is in my neighbor....

[Clearday-TRForce]

I do not remember if i told you before..... that:

I was drinking coffee here in Chios.....2 or 3 years ago in the beach and i heard a bomb explosion in Cesme.....Same day bombs explode in Kusadasi, Izmir and other coastal places, but of course i heard only the one in Cesme...

So, as you can see i am interesting about the situation in Turkey, it is in my neighbor....


Great, I sometimes hear some bombs too in Greece...such as A bomb in a small van has exploded outside the Athens stock exchange, slightly injuring a passer-by and causing extensive damage to the building and parked cars.

A second bomb outside a government building in the northern city of Thessaloniki caused damage

or

In July terrorists targeted a McDonald's restaurant in central Athens, causing extensive damage...and some anarchist groups have intensified arson attacks on symbols of wealth and state power.

or

Greece commemorates the "December events", which began last year when a police officer killed a young boy in Exarhia, an area that's been described as a semi-ghetto of leftist dissidents and anarchists in the centre of Athens.

or

Terrorism, of course, can hardly be called a negotiation. And, in this respect, the recent terrorist attacks, such as the gunning of a police station two weeks ago in Greece, expose the ideological vacuum of the factions that carry them out


right? so we many countries have similar type problems...terrorism will always be....the problem is to find common solutions and block to all these things "mutually". Terrorism is not way to watch up...not a thing to support against humanity.

Terrorism is not a solution...it is the beginning of problems...


best regards,
CDTRF

[Rastagir]

Enlighening analysis, and thanks for the time you took on writing it. Some more questions, in order for me to clarify some things you mentioned.


OK we have a law saying if they surrender willingly and show remorse, they will not get arrested..but this group said exactly the opposite and still walked free. This happened because of the political correctness of this gov't and their pressure on the local judges...but now they also saw this fukup since it kicked off the vilolent protests of the pkk sysphatisers around the country and in the region. Interesting huh? pkk walks free but the violence escalates..clearly, pkk and their symphatisers don't like this "political correctness"

You say "but this group said exactly the opposite and still walked free". You are reffering to the pkk members who turned themselves in, correct? Not the mps.


As CD mentioned, this case started almost two years ago..little after this party came into parliament, but ppl of Turkey incl. the high court wanted to see if these ppl will offer anything more than asking for öcalan's freedom from the day one..they sit there and watched if they'll contribute positivelly..nothing..non of the issues I've mentioned before was brought up by these ppl to the parliament...instead, the more state gave, the more violent they got. Time came recently, they started to say " don't talk to us..talk to pkk and öcalan" This was clearly declaring that they have no function what's so ever in the problem solving, instead, the more they pointed to pkk and öcalan, the more ppl of Turkey became frustrated. So it's not a coincidence or "deep state" work that high court decided to take up the case recently..the DTP has already declared it self useless and by trying to force the state to negociate with pkk, rest of the country was getting unrest. BTW, the deep state you guys always refer to is not the same deep state any longer..this gov't has established it's own deep state accordingly with their ideology in the last 7 and a half years and they'll not do anything to hurt this gov't..but in the long run you guys will wish that the old "deep state" was still around

Again, just to get a more clear picture: The body of judges, who ruled on this, had connections with the current government, acting "on their behalf" (to promrote their agenda), acted on behalf of the "Deep state" which represents the "army faction" or acted completely on their own behalf? I am not trying to say that the justice department acts on someones orders, I am just trying to understand whose interests such a ruling actually promotes (Turkey's, for sure, but which factions?). I thought it was the "secular/army faction" interests, but your post confused me, since you talk of two "Deep states".

Once more, I am not telling that your justice department has ties or serves the interests of a faction. I want that to be clear.



It has nothing to do with the EU evaluation either..no body wants to hear about the EU now..many believes that it's the EU that motivated this gov't for showing so much tolarance against the pkk and their supportets. Even the AKP don't give a **** about the EU..esp. now that they've achived their goal of pacificizing military intervening such problems, with the help of EU.

If I understand correctly, what you say is that AKP doesn't care one bit about Turkey's ascension to EU, but uses this excuse in order to "cut the army's balls", telling the people that "if the army intervenes and we lose our position, kiss Europe goodbye" in order to tighten it's own grip on power. If the army does not respond, "hurray, we are in, so we are a good government, vote for us again!". If the army intervenes then "Those army bastards are the ones who destroyed our chances of joining EU, shame on them, we were doing so fine until they ****ed it up!". A win-win situation for AKP.

Never thought of it like that. Interesting.


If military indicates making a move, they'll run back to EU..you can count on that, but military is definetely NOT going to do anything jst to expose the ****ups of this gov't..and it works so far.

This is the only part I don't see working. EU hasn't got THAT powerful grip in Turkey's internal affairs. If the army moves, so what? Europe can't do anything really. The only thing they can do is freeze ascension talks "until things get democratic again", The Anti-Turkish group in Europe comes out smelling like roses telling "we told you so", in Turkey the army rules the day. If what you say is correct (and I don't say that it isn't) then the army-faction should do whatever possible to stop EU ascension before Turkey actually enters EU, instead of laying low, because after that, thing would get very dire for that faction indeed because it would have to deal with Europe's interests as well.


The problem will be on the solution path when we have a kurdish party in the parliament with no connections to pkk..deannouncing their terrorism and becomes a Turkey's party...not only a kurd party. When they have such a vision, they'll see that the situaiton amongs kurds (as I mentioned in my previous post) is the root of the problems and when they address these problems sincerely, many things will almost automatically get on the correct path. In short, they have to work for the Turkey's better future as Kurds with the Turks in general.

No question here, clear as the sky! :)

[Nickchios]

You did not understand me.....Ctr

I heard it live, it is only 12 KM from me....... boom....

You heard the bombs in Greece from news....

And there is a huge difference in the bombs between our countrys....

Our bombs are from some extremists....psychos..and is a matter of time for the police to arrest them.... it is a police matter.

Yours are from a large group, well armed, with certain claims and is a national matter and your army can do almost nothing.... it is an army matter....

So, your comparison failed..... buddy...

[BorisA]

Well, maybe Turkey should start also supporting some cells in Greece, you know neighbour, so that the people in Cesme or so can also be spectators to this kind of stuff.

Till know you avoided ANY answer to the connections of your country to our terror problem....

[cortico]

Are you a psychologist or something, how can you judge me.I am not losing my temper, and that is the way I talk. I dont give a **** if you like it or not. Here, I did it again:)

I can't open up a new thread, because the mods don't allow us to open a thread about the other. ( Greek-Turkish related )

It is strange to say things about a country, while your own country has a similar or maybe worse situation. Don't you think? ( referring to Nickchios and his kurds on the streets:) )

When it comes to your case, I don't need to be a psychologist.

What does Greece has to do with your Kurdish issue? We have many problems but we sure don't have a multi-million ethnic group looking for self-determination within our borders. If you can't tell the difference between an apple and an orange there's not much i can do.

[cortico]

you must be firstly "fair" to all sides. You are not writing a ban in Spain to Eta members,parties...why? or elsewhere...don't make us fool by genious well selected words like "observers...etc".



regards,
CDTRF

Who said such things happen only in Turkey? Thing is, it's Turkey we are talking about here. The fact that oppression takes place elsewhere does not offset your very own actions.

[m.i.t]

Who said such things happen only in Turkey? Thing is, it's Turkey we are talking about here. The fact that oppression takes place elsewhere does not offset your very own actions.

what are your suggestions instead of senseless bashing Turkey ?

Dealing with gory killers or terorists ? This will be never an option.

[Ulytau]

Also maybe you didnt say but imply too;


Another projection of Turkey's democratic deficit

as i said before i knew where topic going and still can see.

[OrangeWolf]

Well, maybe Turkey should start also supporting some cells in Greece, you know neighbour, so that the people in Cesme or so can also be spectators to this kind of stuff.

Till know you avoided ANY answer to the connections of your country to our terror problem....

Are you suggesting the Turkish government, or Turkish individuals should support anarchist criminals in Greece? Would good will that bring anyone but these car-burning criminals?

[Hollis]

We may start having a few members going on holiday.

Remember my past warnings on the Turkish/Greece flame wars. Watch your wording carefully, keep it civil and no insults. DO NOT TRY to infame other members to get in trouble. If you report a "flame" type post and you initiated it, Guess who will get the infraction.

Several of our members have demonstrated how to discuss these issues among neighbors.


Home court rules, this is a thread on Turkey, advantage will, somewhat, go to them. This is not a thread to flame Turkey. Same goes with the Greece threads. It is simple, let's keep it that way.

[Try&die]

What does Greece has to do with your Kurdish issue? We have many problems but we sure don't have a multi-million ethnic group looking for self-determination within our borders. If you can't tell the difference between an apple and an orange there's not much i can do.

I was referring to Nickchios' comment of the riots on the streets. I suggest you should read better or stop quoting me. Cheers.

[4X4Driver]

Enlighening analysis, and thanks for the time you took on writing it. Some more questions, in order for me to clarify some things you mentioned.


You say "but this group said exactly the opposite and still walked free". You are reffering to the pkk members who turned themselves in, correct? Not the mps.

Correct..not the mps..I was talking about the pkk terrorists.



Again, just to get a more clear picture: The body of judges, who ruled on this, had connections with the current government, acting "on their behalf" (to promrote their agenda), acted on behalf of the "Deep state" which represents the "army faction" or acted completely on their own behalf? I am not trying to say that the justice department acts on someones orders, I am just trying to understand whose interests such a ruling actually promotes (Turkey's, for sure, but which factions?).

On nobody's but the constitutions behalf..which is upholding the law on the behalf of the const. secular republic and its ppl.

Even though, they took an initiative on the general interest of the country and its ppls behalf and delayed the case for two years to give chance to this party to see if they will be Turkey's party and not pkk's. Result was politically disappointing (but for millions it was expected..it just became more clear to some denied it)


I thought it was the "secular/army faction" interests, but your post confused me, since you talk of two "Deep states".

Once more, I am not telling that your justice department has ties or serves the interests of a faction. I want that to be clear.

Like I said..it's the const. this court upholds and decided accordingly. AKP's deep state has not infiltrated this court....yet.


If I understand correctly, what you say is that AKP doesn't care one bit about Turkey's ascension to EU, but uses this excuse in order to "cut the army's balls", telling the people that "if the army intervenes and we lose our position, kiss Europe goodbye" in order to tighten it's own grip on power. If the army does not respond, "hurray, we are in, so we are a good government, vote for us again!". If the army intervenes then "Those army bastards are the ones who destroyed our chances of joining EU, shame on them, we were doing so fine until they ****ed it up!". A win-win situation for AKP.

Almost...except that they know that Turkey will never be an EU member ( they're the ones calling it a "Christian club" whenever EU does something that conflicts with the AKP ideology) They're just usin EU to transform the country as they wish..


Never thought of it like that. Interesting.

Actually..it's much more complicated if we included the int'l dimention to explain their behavior...a hint: something to do with their Neo-Ottomanist ambitions.


This is the only part I don't see working. EU hasn't got THAT powerful grip in Turkey's internal affairs. If the army moves, so what? Europe can't do anything really. The only thing they can do is freeze ascension talks "until things get democratic again",

It isn't so easy in reality..first of all, Turkey is partipicatin in many EU affairs even without being a member and she has her responsibilities..

Secondly, The army does not want to be the scapegoat for a EU membership failure (which never to happen anyways) and make "victims" out of this gov't.


The Anti-Turkish group in Europe comes out smelling like roses telling "we told you so", in Turkey the army rules the day. If what you say is correct (and I don't say that it isn't) then the army-faction should do whatever possible to stop EU ascension before Turkey actually enters EU, instead of laying low, because after that, thing would get very dire for that faction indeed because it would have to deal with Europe's interests as well.

The elections are only a year away..maybe even closer if things gets worse. Both inside and outside, they've made so much fuss about fear mongering with the army coup now, they (army) wants to show the world and the EU that this mongering is baseless..cuz before AKP always benefited from such mongering both inside and outside of the country..this time army saw their bluff and will wait untill the elections. After seeing how useless this gov't is without the coup mongering (they always distract the ppls attention away from the real problems of the country which they could not tackle) ppl wants to see the results of the next elections. So..do not expect any intervience from the military. We have only one year for all other things to take place.




No question here, clear as the sky! :)

Good.

[BorisA]

Are you suggesting the Turkish government, or Turkish individuals should support anarchist criminals in Greece? Would good will that bring anyone but these car-burning criminals?

No, i am not. But this thought helps to illustrate the twisted thinking of some members here who have plenty ideas how to solve our domestic problem while their government ( i can't stop to repeat it) further inflamed it.

[cortico]

what are your suggestions instead of senseless bashing Turkey ?

Dealing with gory killers or terorists ? This will be never an option.

As i've already said, if you want to cancel PKK, deprive it from its reason to exist. Promote a sovereign, independent Kurdish state, inside Turkey or otherwise. But this is just so hippie considering your handling of the Kurds so far.

Deviate from your (plural) obsession with PKK for a moment and try to see the bigger picture.

[4X4Driver]

As i've already said, if you want to cancel PKK, deprive it from its reason to exist. Promote a sovereign, independent Kurdish state, inside Turkey or otherwise. But this is just so hippie considering your handling of the Kurds so far.

Creation of a marxist/leninist kurd state in part of Turkey may sound like good solution (and a wishfull thinking) for a bunch of terror supporting lowlives, but think about the example we'd be setting by giving into terrorism..esp. at the time of GWOT as a NATO member country..


Deviate from your (plural) obsession with PKK for a moment and try to see the bigger picture.

..and you also deviate from your (plural) obsession with Turk hatered for a moment and try the see the bigger picture as I pointed above.

[Hollis]

As i've already said, if you want to cancel PKK, deprive it from its reason to exist. Promote a sovereign, independent Kurdish state, inside Turkey or otherwise. But this is just so hippie considering your handling of the Kurds so far.

Deviate from your (plural) obsession with PKK for a moment and try to see the bigger picture.


Let see, you mentioned your past support of Hamas in which you where infracted for, now the PKK. I suggested that you should read the forum rules, which it does not seem to have happened.

[4X4Driver]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter....Period.
Although one cannot justify the tactics employed by terrorists, it is equally as difficult to justify those tactics of oppresion employed by the state of Turkiye.

The trick to solving the problem is undestanding the Root of the problem, that is, Turkey is not a native country to Anatolia, and as such can be considered an occupying entity on the Kurdish people's homeland........

Everyone deserves freedom. The Kurds deserve freedom within their native motherland, just as you deserve freedom in your native mother land of Kyrgyzstan.

Furthermore, If Turkey is genuine in its concern with the GWOT and NATO then send combat soldiers to Afghanistan and Iraq.....Instead you refuse almost every request for support made by your allies. However, I do understand the difficulty for you in this matter, that is, being genuine.

Your specially motivated input was missed in this thread my armenian "friend"

We have a saying that goes like this " A Wolf is not a real Wolf if at least ten dogs not barking after him"

Do you have any costructive proposal besides saying "go back to where you came from"?..be realistic.


Pkk might be a "freedom fighter" for you but it is an int'l recognized terror org. so your own feelings for this terror org. might be wrong actually.

Supporting terror against us because of your own hatered really disappointing.

Thanks for your input anways though.

[ArmenianLegion]

Your specially motivated input was missed in this thread my armenian "friend"

We have a saying that goes like this " A Wolf is not a real Wolf if at least ten dogs not barking after him"

Do you have any costructive proposal besides saying "go back to where you came from"?..be realistic.


Pkk might be a "freedom fighter" for you but it is an int'l recognized terror org. so your own feelings for this terror org. might be wrong actually.

Supporting terror against us because of your own hatered really disappointing.

Thanks for your input anways though.

Your very welcome "Kardes",
I apologize for not posting sooner. I did not realize until recently that you had graced the Armenia-EU thread with your infinite wisdom and so I felt obliged to return the favour, and provide you with some of mine.

We too have a saying: "When the cup of the people's patience overflows, there is no quarter for oppressors and enslavers".
Take from that what you will.

I am so glad you asked for some constructive criticism. In my opinion, Turkey should recognize an independent Kurdish State in its South East, just like it did the Kosovars, in Serbias South. In line with this logic, it should also recognize The republics of Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

If it chooses this is the wrong logic to follow, then for the sake of consistency, it should withdraw from Northen Cyprus and keep quiet about the Gaza strip.

[4X4Driver]

Your very welcome "Kardes",
I apologize for not posting sooner. I did not realize until recently that you had graced the Armenia-EU thread with your infinite wisdom and so I felt obliged to return the favour, and provide you with some of mine.

We too have a saying: "When the cup of the people's patience overflows, there is no quarter for oppressors and enslavers".
Take from that what you will.

I am so glad you asked for some constructive criticism. In my opinion, Turkey should recognize an independent Kurdish State in its South East, just like it did the Kosovars, in Serbias South. In line with this logic, it should also recognize The republics of Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

If it chooses this is the wrong logic to follow, then for the sake of consistency, it should withdraw from Northen Cyprus and keep quiet about the Gaza strip.

hmmm...I specifically asked you to be realistic..didn't ask about your wet dreams.

[ArmenianLegion]

hmmm...I specifically asked you to be realistic..didn't ask about your wet dreams.

You missed an important distinction.

Wet dreams happen passively, you need not do anything to acheive it.

I choose to be proactive, not passive. I "thrust" hard for my dreams you see
The AKP is helping me *** to realize this, and the DTP is getting things so hot.

Won't you please let me know when you feel the rain in Turkiye Kardes?

[4X4Driver]

You missed an important distinction.

Wet dreams happen passively, you need not do anything to for it.

I choose to be proactive, not passive. I "thrust" hard for my dreams.
The AKP is helping me *** to realize this.

Won't you please let me know when you feel the rain in Turkiye Kardes?

Your personal agenda is not helping this thread to develope positivelly. I will not help you derail it by taking your flaming seriously ;)

[ArmenianLegion]

Your personal agenda is not helping this thread to develope positivelly. I will not help you derail it by taking your flaming seriously ;)

I wasn't flaming. I suggested what I beleive Turkey should do and you berate my arguments by calling them wetdreams. That is all.

Do you care to share with us what you think is the best solution to the current Kurdish issue?

[4X4Driver]

I wasn't flaming. I suggested what I beleive Turkey should do and you berate my arguments by calling them wetdreams. That is all.

Do you care to share with us what you think is the best solution to the current Kurdish issue?


Maybe instead of rushing into the thread with your flaming attempts, you should take your time reading the thread..that's if you're really interested in this matter and not pushing your own agenda ;)

[deli_dumrul]

Do you care to share with us what you think is the best solution to the current Kurdish issue?

Ask what they want one by one... Anybody who is in the organizational chart of the PKK gets the noose on spot. Just like good old times. Anybody who sympathizes PKK ends up in a container destined for Kurdistan. No, not the one in your wet dreams.

From there, they can either join the PKK, or immigrate to Germany as refugees and argue how the Orcs took their lands, how undemocratic New Mordor is, and how New Mordor does not meet EU criteria in terms of human rights.

They may optionally hope for a white wizard to show up. However, there would be no hobbits or elves in this story because midgets are funny and elves are just gay...

[Azatavrear]

:cantbeli:

The kurdish autonom region in N.Iraq acts on its on against the sovereignity and integrity of Iraq! And you accuse us of undermining it? Of course you are an Armenian with an agenda just seeing what you want to see. You are on this topic as "objective" as the Greeks.
Furthermore like Driver posted the PKK uses North Iraq as a base and starting point for Terror attacks in Turkey. So where is the respect for the Turkish integrity and sovereignity by permitting this? Where?
We have no other choice than to act,even if it means to go into kurdi-disneyworld North Iraq. And by doing so we just follow the same path like the USA, which your country also supports in Afghanistan for the very same reason. You hypocrite "whatever".....

I am not the one who is accusing Turkey of violating Iraqs sovereignty...............it is the government of Iraq while the US is trying very hard to keep Turkey under control as to not upset the security in that stable region. You cannot compare your domestic terrorism to the war in Afghanistan. That is cop out.

Turkey should learn from USA, you don’t see them running bombing campaigns without Pakistani Governments approval against enemy hideouts and safe heavens across the boarder. They respect their sovereignty despite having a much greater reason not to............and I think US forces even have permission to enter under hot pursuit. Turkey doesn’t even have that in Northern Iraq.

Regardless, what Turkey has done now with this ban is that they removed all hope that the Kurdish issue can ever be solved by a political representation. A big psychological blow to the Kurdish population.