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AgentX
12-14-2009, 09:48 AM
Cleaners 'beat bankers in worth'

By Martin Shankleman,
Employment correspondent, BBC News


Hospital cleaners are worth more to society than bankers, a study suggests.

The research, carried out by think tank the New Economics Foundation, says hospital cleaners create £10 of value for every £1 they are paid.

It claims bankers are a drain on the country because of the damage they caused to the global economy.

They reportedly destroy £7 of value for every £1 they earn. Meanwhile, senior advertising executives are said to "create stress".

The study says they are responsible for campaigns which create dissatisfaction and misery, and encourage over-consumption.

And tax accountants damage the country by devising schemes to cut the amount of money available to the government, the research suggests.

By contrast, child minders and waste recyclers are also doing jobs that create net wealth to the country.

The Foundation has used a new form of job evaluation to calculate the total contribution various jobs make to society, including for the first time the impact on communities and environment.

Eilis Lawlor, spokeswoman for the New Economics Foundation, said: "Pay levels often don't reflect the true value that is being created. As a society, we need a pay structure which rewards those jobs that create most societal benefit rather than those that generate profits at the expense of society and the environment".

She said the aim of the research was not to target individuals in highly paid jobs, or suggest people in low paid jobs should earn more.

"The point we are making is more fundamental - that there should be a relationship between what we are paid and the value our work generates for society. We've found a way to calculate that," she said.

A total of six different jobs were analysed to assess their overall value. These are the study's main findings:


The elite banker

"Rather than being wealth creators bankers are being handsomely rewarded for bringing the global financial system to the brink of collapse

Paid between £500,000 and £80m a year, leading bankers destroy £7 of value for every pound they generate".


Childcare workers

"Both for families and society as a whole, looking after children could not be more important. As well as providing a valuable service for families, they release earnings potential by allowing parents to continue working. For every pound they are paid they generate up to £9.50 worth of benefits to society."


Hospital cleaners

"Play a vital role in the workings of healthcare facilities. They not only clean hospitals and maintain hygiene standards but also contribute to wider health outcomes. For every pound paid, over £10 in social value is created."


Advertising executives

The industry "encourages high spending and indebtedness. It can create insatiable aspirations, fuelling feelings of dissatisfaction, inadequacy and stress. For a salary of between £50,000 and £12m top advertising executives destroy £11 of value for every pound in value they generate".


Tax accountants

"Every pound that a tax accountant saves a client is a pound which otherwise would have gone to HM Revenue. For a salary of between £75,000 and £200,000, tax accountants destroy £47 in value, for every pound they generate."


Waste recycling workers

"Do a range of different jobs that relate to processing and preventing waste and promoting recycling. Carbon emissions are significantly reduced. There is also a value in reusing goods. For every pound of value spent on wages, £12 of value is generated for society."

The research also makes a variety of policy recommendations to align pay more closely with the value of work.

These include establishing a high pay commission, building social and environmental value into prices, and introducing more progressive taxation.
Source: Cleaners 'worth more to society' than bankers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8410489.stm)

While it would be inappropriate and naive to downplay the role of bankers in any economy, I find it hard to disagree with the larger picture this article is trying to paint.

budgie
12-14-2009, 11:06 AM
Oh jeez the righties are gonna be all over you for this. I'm out.

Imp
12-14-2009, 02:19 PM
They reportedly destroy £7 of value for every £1 they earn. Meanwhile, senior advertising executives are said to "create stress". Huh?


For every pound of value spent on wages, £12 of value is generated for society." WTF?


For every pound they are paid they generate up to £9.50 worth of benefits to society. ????

How do you measure "social value" in a dollar amount? How do they measure the "created stress"? What do they mean "benefits to society"?
What you have here is an article based on unexplained values in a vague, and possible BS, unit of measurement.
e.g For every $1 I earn, I create 10,000 Gogofluxes, while Doctors destroy 20 Million Gogofluxes for every $1 they earn. Feeking pointless statement if you don't define a "gogoflux".

Fat Lazy American
12-14-2009, 02:40 PM
So New York, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Zurich and London must be really, really poor, because they have TONS of bankers.

Zos
12-14-2009, 09:21 PM
What they mean is Banker steal real wealth from the real economy, people who do things, create things manufacturing & the like.

Bankers do nothing but shuffle money around in circles, they don't create anything useful and use this monetary power to steal real wealth from the rest of the community to its detriment as the Americans are finding out now..

Rakki
12-14-2009, 11:03 PM
What 'bout the govermment/public service?

USMCRTop
12-14-2009, 11:14 PM
This obviously from some left leaning communist group "value of honest labor " or some such

Mr Gently Benevolent
12-15-2009, 05:04 AM
This obviously from some left leaning communist group "value of honest labor " or some such

All kinda makes sense to me the whole social value aspect though I must admit that we do need bankers and an efficient monetary system cleaners do contribute to our health and well being. Social value is not exactly a left leaning economic theory either it an recognized component of our lives.

martinexsquaddie
12-15-2009, 10:26 AM
we always going to need someone to pick up crap.

not sure we need an expert in derivatives or leverged buyouts let alone an ad exec.
see the aombie apoclaypse for details

Mr.K
12-15-2009, 10:30 AM
we always going to need someone to pick up crap.

not sure we need an expert in derivatives or leverged buyouts let alone an ad exec.
see the aombie apoclaypse for details

But once the zombie apocalypse is over, people will need to "invest" in order to pay their "loans" for the bottle of milk which will be traded on the "markets".

And the ad exec will be here to persuade you that despite the zombie apocalypse a 50k car is still necessary to get laid.

Don't forget the politician that will promise you "hope" and "change"

And the military that will protect the regime.

This kind of article can lead to absurdity. The more developped a society is, the more "useless jobs" it needs.

Hyde
12-15-2009, 12:16 PM
This only shows who is underpaid.

Fat Lazy American
12-15-2009, 12:33 PM
This kind of article can lead to absurdity. The more developped a society is, the more "useless jobs" it needs.

I was going to say something like this ...

The left will complain about financiers.

The right will complain about government bureaucrats.

Everyone complains about lawyers.

But they're all a critical part of a prosperous, civilized society.

You can't run a country with only doctors, engineers and manual laborers.

Mr.K
12-15-2009, 01:28 PM
This only shows who is underpaid.
Define underpaid. Yes i know minimum wage is not enough ,and yes compensation in the top management in financial firms is ridiculously high, and is obscene especially in the current context, but these are extremes.
So what is fair? Who should determine compensation?




You can't run a country with only doctors, engineers and manual laborers.

You can! It was called the Soviet union or maybe today's Cuba and maybe NK. It had exellent doctors, crappy engineers , and inefficient manual laborers. (Yes i'm simplifying things).

By the way in socialst countries, the "loser jobs" were... drum roll : engineer, accountant and lawyer.
Adverising execs and bankers did not exist.

Hyde
12-15-2009, 01:34 PM
Define underpaid. Yes i know minimum wage is not enough ,and yes compensation in the top management in financial firms is ridiculously high, and is obscene especially in the current context, but these are extremes.
So what is fair? Who should determine compensation?

If the value you create is 7 times higher than the pay you get, you are underpaid as your work is worth a lot more than your pay.

Mr.K
12-15-2009, 01:38 PM
If the value you create is 7 times higher than the pay you get, you are underpaid as your work is worth a lot more than your pay.

But an employee is hired to create value to hay his own compensation and profits for the employer. What Marx denounced basically.

I'm gonna be the devils advocate and ad:

Compensation is defined by the market: are your skills needed, are you irreplacable, and if you're in sales : how much product can you push.


And to this i can add: accounting, law and banking services can be outsourced . Picking up crap on the street, or babysitting children can not (unless you watch Onion news network)

Hyde
12-15-2009, 02:02 PM
I'm gonna be the devils advocate and ad:

Compensation is defined by the market: are your skills needed, are you irreplacable

That's not being devil's advocate, that's first week economics. Cleaners are very replaceable, and the statistic just shows who is underpaid and who not. That's all I said.