New Zealand sanctions Israel over Mossad scandal

[ariweiner]

'Mossad agents' jailed in fake New Zealand passport scandal

David Fickling in Sydney
Friday July 16, 2004
The Guardian

The prime minister of New Zealand angrily denounced Israel and imposed diplomatic sanctions on it after two suspected Mossad agents were jailed for six months for trying on false grounds to obtain a New Zealand passport.

The plot, which involved obtaining a passport in the name of a tetraplegic man who had not spoken in years, provoked a furious reaction yesterday.

"The breach of New Zealand laws and sovereignty by agents of the Israeli government has seriously strained our relationship with Israel," said the prime minister, Helen Clark.

"This type of behaviour is unacceptable internationally by any country. It is a sorry indictment of Israel that it has again taken such actions against a country with which it has friendly relations."

High-level visits between the two countries will be cancelled, visa restrictions imposed for Israeli officials, and an expected visit to New Zealand by Moshe Katsov, the Israeli president, later this year has been cancelled.

Ms Clark said Israel had ignored requests made three months ago for an explanation and an apology.

The action marks the most serious rupture in New Zealand's international relations since Wellington suspended diplomatic relations with France in 1985 after French agents bombed Greenpeace's anti-nuclear ship Rainbow Warrior in Auckland harbour.

The Mossad plot was uncovered in March when a passport officer noticed that a passport applicant was speaking with a Canadian or American accent.

The clue led to the uncovering of a complex conspiracy involving up to four Israeli agents, who had attempted to create a false identity for 36-year-old fugitive Zev Barkan using a fraudulent birth certificate, a fake voicemail message and letter box, and concocted medical symptoms.

Uriel Kelman, 30, and Eli Cara, 50, were each sentenced to six months in prison yesterday for their involvement in the plot. Both men had gone to elaborate steps to conceal their identities: Kelman appeared at the court wearing a balaclava and covered his face throughout the two-hour hearing, while Cara had changed his hair colour, complexion and build since his first court appearance in March.

Mr Barkan and a fourth man believed to have been connected to the plot are still on the run. Mr Barkan lived in a house just a few hundred metres from his target, a wheelchair user who has not been named for legal reasons. Cara set up a false travel agency in Sydney to aid the deception.

A birth certificate was obtained using details of the man's mother, who now lives in England, and an Auckland doctor was persuaded to witness Mr Barkan's passport application after seeing him for a couple of minor ailments.

Kelman and Cara were arrested in March following a prolonged cat-and-mouse game in Auckland, sparked off after police traced phone records between Mr Barkan and the two men.

Officers planned to arrest the ringleaders as they picked up the completed passport, but Cara had pre-empted this by having it sent by courier to an apartment block, where it was to be collected by a taxi driver and taken to a rendezvous with Kelman elsewhere in Auckland.

Police surveillance caught Cara acting suspiciously, close to the central Auckland apartment block, while Kelman was arrested after fleeing the other rendezvous and throwing his mobile phone into a hedge.

Israel's acting ambassador in Australia, Orma Sagiv, said Israel would work to rebuild relations with New Zealand.

"Israel values its relations with New Zealand very much and we will do everything we can to return relations to their former situation," she said.

In Jerusalem, Silvan Shalom, the Israeli foreign minister, said Israel was disappointed with New Zealand's reaction.

"Israel is very sorry about the decision that was taken by the [New Zealand] government," Mr Shalom said. "But we believe that if we will work with each other as we used to work in the past, we will overcome the last difficulty."

Mossad has frequently been accused of using fake passports to launch its operations. A 1997 incident in which Mossad agents used fake Canadian passports in an attempt to assassinate the Hamas leader, Sheikh Khaled Mashal, caused the Israeli ambassador to be ordered out of Canada until Tel Aviv promised to cease the practice.

[UoUo]

Anyone still remember what happend to 2 agent from france that arrested by new zeland?


Anyway...i don't think those 2 were mossad agents.

[moughoun]

Anyone still remember what happend to 2 agent from france that arrested by new zeland?


Anyway...i don't think those 2 were mossad agents.

The male fernceh agent is now a senior officer in the French special forces command and the Woman work's for a secuirity consultent firm in Germany I think

[UoUo]

Anyone still remember what happend to 2 agent from france that arrested by new zeland?


Anyway...i don't think those 2 were mossad agents.

The male fernceh agent is now a senior officer in the French special forces command and the Woman work's for a secuirity consultent firm in Germany I think

And they got jaild in New zealnd?

[Royal]

And they got jaild in New zealnd?

No New Zealand and France agreed that they would go into some form of exile on a French South Pacific island.

The woman got pregnant and went back to France. The guy just went back to France after a while. The New Zealand government let it drop.

[GazB]

The woman got pregnant and went back to France. The guy just went back to France after a while. The New Zealand government let it drop.

Myfart and Priuer went to Hau atoll and were there for about 6 months before Myfart developed a "sore tummy" and went home. A few months later the bitch got pregnant and was also winging her way back to France. New Zealand protested but France threatened to block NZ exports to the EU which would have cost us billions. We still dislike the French government for this.

[UoUo]

The woman got pregnant and went back to France. The guy just went back to France after a while. The New Zealand government let it drop.

Myfart and Priuer went to Hau atoll and were there for about 6 months before Myfart developed a "sore tummy" and went home. A few months later the bitch got pregnant and was also winging her way back to France. New Zealand protested but France threatened to block NZ exports to the EU which would have cost us billions. We still dislike the French government for this.

So you used double standart in that case...cuz we can't block you from Entering Israel cuz you whouldn't give a ****...

:roll:

[cut]

The woman got pregnant and went back to France. The guy just went back to France after a while. The New Zealand government let it drop.

Myfart and Priuer went to Hau atoll and were there for about 6 months before Myfart developed a "sore tummy" and went home. A few months later the bitch got pregnant and was also winging her way back to France. New Zealand protested but France threatened to block NZ exports to the EU which would have cost us billions. We still dislike the French government for this.

So you used double standart in that case...cuz we can't block you from Entering Israel cuz you whouldn't give a ****...

:roll:

that's the way of the world...

[UoUo]

The woman got pregnant and went back to France. The guy just went back to France after a while. The New Zealand government let it drop.

Myfart and Priuer went to Hau atoll and were there for about 6 months before Myfart developed a "sore tummy" and went home. A few months later the bitch got pregnant and was also winging her way back to France. New Zealand protested but France threatened to block NZ exports to the EU which would have cost us billions. We still dislike the French government for this.

So you used double standart in that case...cuz we can't block you from Entering Israel cuz you whouldn't give a ****...

:roll:

that's the way of the world...

:|

[Flagg]

Anyway...i don't think those 2 were mossad agents.

I can assure you the New Zealand government does not typically take an aggressive approach regarding such matters unless it is warranted.....period.

Israel responded to similiar action in Canada with an official apology, they should provide NZ with the same courtesy.


No New Zealand and France agreed that they would go into some form of exile on a French South Pacific island.

The woman got pregnant and went back to France. The guy just went back to France after a while. The New Zealand government let it drop.

The agreement was for the two to fulfill their ENTIRE respective sentences on a French-held South Pacific Territory.

They failed to do so which was a blatant slap in the face to the nation they had just committed a sanctioned act of terrorism against...the very same nation that spilled blood in France twice that century.

[UoUo]

Lala....hypocrisy

[Tane Angle]

I think I have to defend New Zealand here-this is more or less standard procedure for when such jobs are uncovered. It's not an anti-Israel thing, it's an a pro-New Zealand's citizens thing. There is a difference between defensiveness and paranoia.

As always, have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Moledet]

Damn, now where will we find sheeps?

If NZ would have been so important to Israel we would have built there an embassy, but there's no Israeli embassy/ambassador/console in NZ.

[catalyst]

that Moldet is why so many people dislike Israel.

You dont matter to us so we can do wat the hell we want to you.

Hello.....welcome to a era of globalisation, we are all neighbours now!

[Javehn]

edit

[Javehn]

You have new friends now :


Call to suspend Israel from United Nations

The Palestine Human Rights Campaign applauds the strong statements made by the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, on behalf of the New Zealand Government concerning the convicted Israeli spies.

The Prime Minister strongly condemned this abuse of New Zealand sovereignty, commenting that political repercussions would result from this Israeli breach of international law.

Israel has been breaking international laws for decades and has undermined the sovereignty of numerous nations, refusing to respect the Geneva Conventions and UN Resolutions. This constant flouting of the norms of civilised behaviour by Israel should be of grave concern to the world community. The behaviour of the two convicted agents is but a small example of the arrogance that prompts Israel to see itself as being above the law.

It is time the international community began to demand that Israel either comply with its international obligations or face sanctions.

We call upon the New Zealand Government to lead an international movement to suspend Israel's membership of the United Nations Organisation until it fully complies with UN Resolutions, all the Geneva Conventions and international law.


Congratulation , hope you do a good bussiness with them . I heard a lot of startup firms and university student comming from Jenin .

[Fintin]

i dont get why everyones getting pissed about this...think of it this way...your good friend takes the last beer...you get pissed...but you know this friend can get you cheep whiskey...you let it slide

the next day...your sister stops by with her new asshole boyfriend...he takes the last beer from that day...you kick him out of your place and tell him to never come back...why...he has nothing to offer...


i cant say i blam NZ...if i was incharge of a country...and that happend...i would do the same thing...maybe this is stepping on some toes...but i feel Israel sticks its fingers into too many pots sometimes...im all for a free state...but there is a line at perserving your identity and freedom and being paranoid

[gilgoul]

I just want solid fact!!!
That NZ gov takes some kind of bullsit excuse to improve it`s relation with the arab world is no news to us, France did the same in 67, as well as most of europe in 73.
What are the facts, what do we know for sure?
Why would Israel need a batch of clean passports while it can get way more easily on the black market, or from immigrants?
So far, it seems that those guys where pimping around, not conducting intelligence operation, so why make sch a fuss of it.
My hint would be as follow:

"we NZ`s had to suck on a pretty long and thick french schlong after the rainbow warrior affair, and want to make some kind of example that we aren`t worldscaled suckers, so what`s better than Israel, wich is in a all low popularity anyway."

Provide me facts, and maybe as a citizen i`ll humbly give you my citizen apology, so far, I think that you owe me an apology for generalising and allowing such an dirty rethoric toward my country.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I just want solid fact!!!
That NZ gov takes some kind of bullsit excuse to improve it`s relation with the arab world is no news to us, France did the same in 67, as well as most of europe in 73.
What are the facts, what do we know for sure?
Why would Israel need a batch of clean passports while it can get way more easily on the black market, or from immigrants?
So far, it seems that those guys where pimping around, not conducting intelligence operation, so why make sch a fuss of it.
My hint would be as follow:

"we NZ`s had to suck on a pretty long and thick french schlong after the rainbow warrior affair, and want to make some kind of example that we aren`t worldscaled suckers, so what`s better than Israel, wich is in a all low popularity anyway."

Provide me facts, and maybe as a citizen i`ll humbly give you my citizen apology, so far, I think that you owe me an apology for generalising and allowing such an dirty rethoric toward my country.
Word up!
They are indeed using this **** as an excuse to scuk up to the Arab World, or perhaps to show that they 'matter'

[Fintin]

ok...everyone stick their fingers in everyone elses pie right...Israel got caught this time...dont piss and moan about it...just lick that finger clean and move on...if they want an appology what could it hurt to give one...


what would Israel do in this situation...if someone came in there and did what is obviously spy activity...

[Javehn]

I just want solid fact!!!
That NZ gov takes some kind of bullsit excuse to improve it`s relation with the arab world is no news to us, France did the same in 67, as well as most of europe in 73.
What are the facts, what do we know for sure?
Why would Israel need a batch of clean passports while it can get way more easily on the black market, or from immigrants?
So far, it seems that those guys where pimping around, not conducting intelligence operation, so why make sch a fuss of it.
My hint would be as follow:

"we NZ`s had to suck on a pretty long and thick french schlong after the rainbow warrior affair, and want to make some kind of example that we aren`t worldscaled suckers, so what`s better than Israel, wich is in a all low popularity anyway."

Provide me facts, and maybe as a citizen i`ll humbly give you my citizen apology, so far, I think that you owe me an apology for generalising and allowing such an dirty rethoric toward my country.

Thanks , that's exactly my thoughts as well . Probably even sence they have new passports now, some people in NZ government don't want to show that their new passports getting allready coppied , so they have all this "Mossad" story to make that affair more tollerable , and less humiliating .


if someone came in there and did what is obviously spy activity...

Please ... Obviosly spy activity is for example what happened in Switzerland , with bugging story. If anything , the story of forging documents inside some country is crying anti-spy . I mean , really , what kind of stupid people or organisation would do that ? I personnally don't see nothing beyond criminal activity . And NZ didn't proove nothing lesds , except of shouting and whining to the whole world .

[gilgoul]

ok...everyone stick their fingers in everyone elses pie right...Israel got caught this time...dont piss and moan about it...just lick that finger clean and move on...if they want an appology what could it hurt to give one...


what would Israel do in this situation...if someone came in there and did what is obviously spy activity...
The fact is that so far I haven`t seen any kind of evidence.
Believe me, I would be the first one to suck up if ome kind of solid fact was provided, but so far I`ve heard of rumors, of the magic word "mossad", of quickly pissed of NZ officials.
I was stil in france durng the rainbow warrior scandal, where i remind you a man died. It was far from the **** going on here, while france had clearly conducted some heavy handed activity there.
So I just feel like they take the fact that those dudes where Israelis to make up some "james bond" stuff, while they were probably thougs trying to get themselves a new Identity, or some kind of ****.
All I read in international newspapers didn`t suceed to change my opinion.
As I tell you, I wold be the first one to present my persnal excuses to NZ if the fact were to be evidenced, so far, I`m the one who feels offended.

[Royal]

Face it guys, everyone f**ks up once in a while. The mighty CIA and Mossad included.

You got caught with your fingers in the till. Learn from it, quit dripping off and don't get caught again.

[Javehn]

Face it guys, everyone f**ks up once in a while. The mighty CIA and Mossad included.

You got caught with your fingers in the till. Learn from it, quit dripping off and don't get caught again.

Face what ? Face what ???? For god sake , face what ????

There is no shred of evidence that they are Mossad workers . No . You want that kind of Mossad workers ? Go to Netherland , you will find them everywhere .

Meanwhile the only one who says those are Mossad agents without shred of any proof is NZ .

Everybody ****s , fine . Don't you wonder why so many people in Israel think those people have nothing to do with Mossad ?

[Moledet]

ok...everyone stick their fingers in everyone elses pie right...Israel got caught this time...dont piss and moan about it...just lick that finger clean and move on...if they want an appology what could it hurt to give one...


what would Israel do in this situation...if someone came in there and did what is obviously spy activity...
The problem is that they are not Mossad agents, so Israel has nothing to apologise about.

If a spy would be cought in Israel, than Israel will judge him for spying and send him to jail.

[Royal]

Don't you wonder why so many people in Israel think those people have nothing to do with Mossad ?

No.

Because most Isrealis consider Mossad to be infallible and invincible. They consider themselves to be at a state of war with most of the rest of the world, so any actions carried out by the Isreali SF (security forces) is justified whatever the action or outcome.

Your blind determination not to face the facts just proves it.

[Javehn]

Bull**** , bull**** , bull**** , bull**** , period !!!

You don't know me , you don't know Israelies , you don't know what they think about this matter .

You have probably the same idea about us , as we have about you . All "stigmas" and stereotypes .

So please don't call someone blind or determine who he is , unless you know him (personally is better) .

[Mark_Aspen]

I personally don't think they were Mossad, but then I didn't want to believe Pollard was either. Still it seems more like some kind of ring. I don't think NZ is thumbing their nose at us any more aggressively than they have to others. As an outsider I'd say there is a parallel to France or Canada. NZ doesn't want its foreign policy and international relations to be determined by proxy; whether as a western nation in a world dominated by the US (think the ANZUS issue and US Nukes) or as Australia's smaller neighbor. We should bite the pride, send Shimon to make nice, and be dome with it. Oh we should also publicly embarrass the next foreignor we catch.

Molededet, achi. I think you're wrong. I think (hell, I know) there are too many Israelis out in the world causing too much mischief as petty criminals. They think they're going to make the one big score and retire to a villa in Schweitz or Ceaseria. We as a society (Israeli) are too willing to excuse and make excuses for this behavior, I don't care if its these guys, or many of the trekkers who think they own small Indian villages. There is a group of us who have created and sustained the "Ugly Israeli" and we seem to make heros of them.

On a seperate note. Came back from a holiday in the US, my first time in the real Midwest. Once I get the film back, I should have some pics of a flying B-24.

[EvanL]

****ing paranoid Israelis.
If it was say French spies in your country. Or even if they were suspected of being spies. You would do the same. (Im using France as an example cus i know they dislike them).
Why should it be any different for Israelis suspected of spying?
Its NZ protecting its own. Even if they arent spies. They are suspected of it, and will be held ujntil the situation is resolved.
Stop throwing hissy fits and being little girls about it.
Theyre not going to kill them or jail them for life. There probably in better conditions right now then a suspected spy in Israel would be.
Have a good one and just some thoughts. p-)

[W(M)D]

........... They consider themselves to be at a state of war with most of the rest of the world........

Your blind determination not to face the facts just proves it.

Israelis do not consider themselves to be in a state of war with most of the rest of the world and your statement is a gross exaggeration.
You clearly do not know much about the country, it's people or the politics (aside of what you may read in the papers).

Israel is known to face the facts for it's agencies **** ups in the past e.g. Norway in 70's and Jordan in the 90's. The issue here is that on this occasion, many Israelis are dubious as to the facts of the NZ case until the actual facts are really known.

[gilgoul]

Face it guys, everyone f**ks up once in a while. The mighty CIA and Mossad included.

You got caught with your fingers in the till. Learn from it, quit dripping off and don't get caught again.

Listen, the OSlo **** up brought full apology and contrition from Israel, as well as the Aman one.
Every time we got caught in those kind of ****, we simply said "sorry maam, sorry sir", withdrew and accepted sentence.
But in this very case, there is nothing solid that has been brought to our knoledge, and believe me the Israeli press would be the first one to delect itself from this kind of news.
Lok at the IHT, AFP, *******, same thing.
\SO where are the fact?
If this is so sensitive, how come there haven`t been any kind of serious evidence displaying in this affair.
The norges and Jordanians didn`t have any difficulties to provide evidences, followed by flat excuses from Israel, so whats going on here?

[Moledet]

Mark Aspen, just a note, Polard isn't a spy, he is a hero, he saved 6 million Israelis from Iraq's nuclear weapons.

[Javehn]

Mark , I agree with every word you said . But about Pollard , he was cought stealing documents , classified documents of NSA . I don't think there was much doubt at that time .

Here they cought stealing freeking passports !!! Forging passports for god sake !! How hard it is to forge passports in Israel ? Yes , even the new ones .

[EvanL]

Mark , I agree with every word you said . But about Pollard , he was cought stealing documents , classified documents of NSA . I don't think there was much doubt at that time .

Here they cought stealing freeking passports !!! Forging passports for god sake !! How hard it is to forge passports in Israel ? Yes , even the new ones .So you dont think forging passports is a threat to ones national security?

[Fintin]

anyone care to explain how to people in custidy isnt evidence...

[Javehn]

So you dont think forging passports is a threat to ones national security?

???

I am saying , that even Mossad with it's ****ups could have done it "in home" , as it suppose to be done .

Don't you think that it's a bit stupid to buy fake passports in the country where you suppose to use it ? Kinda very dumb ?

[EvanL]

So you dont think forging passports is a threat to ones national security?

???

I am saying , that even Mossad with it's f*** could have done it "in home" , as it suppose to be done .
Perhaps they needed copies of a NZ passport to make them. I dont suppose they can do it all from memory now do you?

[Javehn]

And I suppose you heard about thing that called Internet and Email , do you ? ;)

60's are gone long time ago ... I think that even ****ed up Mossad uprading himself ... You know ,technology is good thing, specialy because of the ammount of security technological firms in Israel . ;)

[EvanL]

And I suppose you heard about thing that called Internet and Email , do you ? ;)yes.. but for those things to work correctly. someon down the line would have to get their hands on the passport now wouldnt they?

[Fintin]

i blame the canadians...yep thats right



why because it makes as much sence as the rest of this conversation...

the facts...

NZ cought to Israelie nationals

the Israelie nationals were trying to get faudulent NZ passports

NZ gets pissed at Israel

NZ clames the two in custidy are Israelie inteligents officers

how did NZ come to this conclusion...these people sitting in a jail cell probly told them hopeing that NZ would have sympathy for their fight and let them go

[gilgoul]

And I suppose you heard about thing that called Internet and Email , do you ? ;)yes.. but for those things to work correctly. someon down the line would have to get their hands on the passport now wouldnt they?

For that you would have enough NZ tourists and activists to "retain" the passport from for a few hours.

[Javehn]

And I suppose you heard about thing that called Internet and Email , do you ? ;)yes.. but for those things to work correctly. someon down the line would have to get their hands on the passport now wouldnt they?

All you have to do is to photo them ... There are many people work with Mossad ("Sayanim") . I think Mossad could pick someone better then with have foreigner accent - what's infact the main line of NZ prosecution .

There are Jewish community in NZ - walla . Why not use them ? Please , this story just smells wrong .

[Moledet]

i blame the canadians...yep thats right



why because it makes as much sence as the rest of this conversation...

the facts...

NZ cought to Israelie nationals

the Israelie nationals were trying to get faudulent NZ passports

NZ gets pissed at Israel

NZ clames the two in custidy are Israelie inteligents officers

how did NZ come to this conclusion...these people sitting in a jail cell probly told them hopeing that NZ would have sympathy for their fight and let them go
Heh, when Mossad agents are being cought, they just tell lies upon lies, they will never say that they are Mossad agents because that's an offense that will get them into jail in Israel.

[Fintin]

There are Jewish community in NZ - walla . Why not use them ? Please , this story just smells wrong .

not every jew is israelie...just saying

[Javehn]

There are Jewish community in NZ - walla . Why not use them ? Please , this story just smells wrong .

not every jew is israelie...just saying]

You just nead one simpathic to the cause jew , and that's it ... :roll: Pollard wasn't Israeli now , wasn't he ?

Just saying .

[NBC Trooper]

Mark Aspen, just a note, Polard isn't a spy, he is a hero, he saved 6 million Israelis from Iraq's nuclear weapons.

How he did that?

[W(M)D]

not every jew is israelie...just saying

And in that philosophical statement you should note that not every Israeli is a Jew.

Hey NBC trooper, like the avatar - LOL
How is life in the mucky world of Abach?

[Fintin]

this thread officaly sucks now....GO CANADA

[Moledet]

Mark Aspen, just a note, Polard isn't a spy, he is a hero, he saved 6 million Israelis from Iraq's nuclear weapons.

How he did that?
US at that time had information about the unconventional capabilities of Syria, Iraq, Libya and Iran and about terror attacks against Israeli civilians, but US didn't give them to Israel according to an agreement that was signed between the two countries in 1983.
Polard tried to convince the americans to give that information to Israel, when he failed he decided to move the documents to Israeli Mossad agents.
Thanks to his action many civilians were saved and no one got hurt (not even the US because the information that passed didn't hurt the US security).

More information (hebrew):
http://www.freepollard.org/

[NBC Trooper]

[quote]

Hey NBC trooper, like the avatar - LOL
How is life in the mucky world of Abach?

Full of **** as usual :cantbeli:

Where are you serving/served?

[NBC Trooper]

Mark Aspen, just a note, Polard isn't a spy, he is a hero, he saved 6 million Israelis from Iraq's nuclear weapons.

How he did that?
US at that time had information about the unconventional capabilities of Syria, Iraq, Libya and Iran and about terror attacks against Israeli civilians, but US didn't give them to Israel according to an agreement that was signed between the two countries in 1983.
Polard tried to convince the americans to give that information to Israel, when he failed he decided to move the documents to Israeli Mossad agents.
Thanks to his action many civilians were saved and no one got hurt (not even the US because the information that passed didn't hurt the US security).

More information (hebrew):
http://www.freepollard.org/

And you think the mossad wouldn't found it out without him :roll:

[Moledet]

Mark Aspen, just a note, Polard isn't a spy, he is a hero, he saved 6 million Israelis from Iraq's nuclear weapons.

How he did that?
US at that time had information about the unconventional capabilities of Syria, Iraq, Libya and Iran and about terror attacks against Israeli civilians, but US didn't give them to Israel according to an agreement that was signed between the two countries in 1983.
Polard tried to convince the americans to give that information to Israel, when he failed he decided to move the documents to Israeli Mossad agents.
Thanks to his action many civilians were saved and no one got hurt (not even the US because the information that passed didn't hurt the US security).

More information (hebrew):
http://www.freepollard.org/

And you think the mossad wouldn't found it out without him :roll:
If the Mossad was able to get that information alone, than why did it send 4 agents to receive the information from Pollard?

[fred_engles]

If the Mossad was able to get that information alone, than why did it send 4 agents to receive the information from Pollard?Pollard never worked for the Mossad, but for the since-disbanded Lekem (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/israel/lekem.htm).

[Moledet]

If the Mossad was able to get that information alone, than why did it send 4 agents to receive the information from Pollard?Pollard never worked for the Mossad, but for the since-disbanded Lekem (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/israel/lekem.htm).
It doesn't matter, Israel still didn't know this information and thought that it's important enough to send agents to collect that information.

P.S. "Madao" is not a word in Hebrew.

[IDFM203]

I know you didn’t address this to me but I figured I’d jump in and say a few things…. ;)



No.

Because most Isrealis consider Mossad to be infallible and invincible. What a ridicules and false statement this is :roll:

Yes we think that the Mossad is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world, but at the same time, of course we recognize that it has f*cked up in the past, as we know every spy agency has and no, most do not think the Mossad is invincible……….gees I expect this kind of crap from the younger posters, not from some of the older ones :roll:


They consider themselves to be at a state of war with most of the rest of the world, The sad thing is that you really believe that we belive this :cantbeli: ……………no, we don’t….again wrong statement!!…………..now yes we consider our standing to be very negative in most of the world (and we think that’s wrong), but we don’t see ourselves at war with anyone except our immediate neighbors and well that’s to be expected since its them that actively fights to see us destroyed.



so any actions carried out by the Isreali SF (security forces) is justified whatever the action or outcome. :cantbeli: :roll: wrong wrong wrong and NONE of us every said or believes this!!!!

When we are wrong, we will admit it and accept it and we know, as I have said many times, that indeed we are not perfect and that yes we have made a lot of mistakes in the past……………now me personally I think overall we have been justified for the most part in our defense for our lives for the past fifty years, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think we have done some wrong or that we haven’t made many mistakes, for I KNOW we have!!


Your blind determination not to face the facts just proves it. and that’s just it………where are the FACTS???????????????????? If we saw it, yes we would admit it is wrong and I and many other citizens would feel embarrassed…………..I have said before, that indeed if its proven that they are Mossad agents, then indeed I would feel embarrassed and Israel should apologize, but still, I am still waiting for any proof to be shown that they were operating on behalf of the Israeli government………..I HAVE STILL NOT SEEN ANYTHING TO SHOW THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Lastly let me say that I find it frankly insulting and arrogant of you to use words like “MOST Israelis’ as if YOU know what MOST Israelis say or think, for you don’t and its unbecoming of you to place yourself as one that can make definitive statements of what you claim most of us say or think.


Shalom :D
:D

[jedisponge]

i dont get why everyones getting pissed about this...think of it this way...your good friend takes the last beer...you get pissed...but you know this friend can get you cheep whiskey...you let it slide

the next day...your sister stops by with her new asshole boyfriend...he takes the last beer from that day...you kick him out of your place and tell him to never come back...why...he has nothing to offer...


i cant say i blam NZ...if i was incharge of a country...and that happend...i would do the same thing...maybe this is stepping on some toes...but i feel Israel sticks its fingers into too many pots sometimes...im all for a free state...but there is a line at perserving your identity and freedom and being paranoid

same here. i'm all for their free state, and defending themselves. but some of the things they do is just seems like homer simpson is in charge. i don't think some of the israelis here realize how big of a deal it is that they were spying on an allied country. does that mean they're going to prepare an attack? it's too rash to assume something like that, but when you're the leader of a country you can't take any chances.

[Moledet]

i dont get why everyones getting pissed about this...think of it this way...your good friend takes the last beer...you get pissed...but you know this friend can get you cheep whiskey...you let it slide

the next day...your sister stops by with her new asshole boyfriend...he takes the last beer from that day...you kick him out of your place and tell him to never come back...why...he has nothing to offer...


i cant say i blam NZ...if i was incharge of a country...and that happend...i would do the same thing...maybe this is stepping on some toes...but i feel Israel sticks its fingers into too many pots sometimes...im all for a free state...but there is a line at perserving your identity and freedom and being paranoid

same here. i'm all for their free state, and defending themselves. but some of the things they do is just seems like homer simpson is in charge. i don't think some of the israelis here realize how big of a deal it is that they were spying on an allied country. does that mean they're going to prepare an attack? it's too rash to assume something like that, but when you're the leader of a country you can't take any chances.
It's not a big deal, because they spied no one, they tried to get fake passports.

P.S. What' we gonna attack NZ? LOL, for what?

[fred_engles]

P.S. "Madao" is not a word in Hebrew.
*knocks head on desk, trying to remember fragments of hebrew...*

Isn't the word for science "Ma'day" or something like that?

[GrimReaper]

i dont get why everyones getting pissed about this...think of it this way...your good friend takes the last beer...you get pissed...but you know this friend can get you cheep whiskey...you let it slide

the next day...your sister stops by with her new asshole boyfriend...he takes the last beer from that day...you kick him out of your place and tell him to never come back...why...he has nothing to offer...


i cant say i blam NZ...if i was incharge of a country...and that happend...i would do the same thing...maybe this is stepping on some toes...but i feel Israel sticks its fingers into too many pots sometimes...im all for a free state...but there is a line at perserving your identity and freedom and being paranoid

same here. i'm all for their free state, and defending themselves. but some of the things they do is just seems like homer simpson is in charge. i don't think some of the israelis here realize how big of a deal it is that they were spying on an allied country. does that mean they're going to prepare an attack? it's too rash to assume something like that, but when you're the leader of a country you can't take any chances.
It's not a big deal, because they spied no one, they tried to get fake passports.

P.S. What' we gonna attack NZ? LOL, for what?

Just to add one more thing, Intelligence agencies don't try to get fake passports, they can make them on their own, they try to get real thing.
Not that I'm admitting anything, I still say it was "The General"...

[Moledet]

P.S. "Madao" is not a word in Hebrew.
*knocks head on desk, trying to remember fragments of hebrew...*

Isn't the word for science "Ma'day" or something like that?
Science=Mada
Scientific=Madaie
It needs to be Lishkat Keser Madaie.

[GazB]

So you used double standart in that case...cuz we can't block you from Entering Israel cuz you whouldn't give a ****...


It is not a double standard. We arrested two french operatives and put them in jail. The French government made a deal to let them serve their time in french prisons in the pacific (Hau Atoll)... then they screwed us by sending them both home for fake reasons and did not send them back to serve their sentences. When we protested they threatened us economically. What were we supposed to do? Invade France and capture them back... or even funnier contact INTERPOL... where are they based?

No, the only difference here is that these criminals will serve their time here and their government has no leverage to effect their prison time... and even if they were French again I doubt if they would let them leave NZ to serve their sentence anywhere else.


That NZ gov takes some kind of bullsit excuse to improve it`s relation with the arab world is no news to us, France did the same in 67, as well as most of europe in 73.

We already have good relations with the arab world, but most of our exports are to Australia, Europe, and then probably Asia. Our exports to the Arab world are not that great... and not declining.


Israelis do not consider themselves to be in a state of war with most of the rest of the world and your statement is a gross exaggeration.

The instant assumption on this and the other thread is that this is the New Zealand government taking a shot in the dark... the only two reasons... given by Israelis mind you... are that New Zealanders hate Jews or that New Zealanders want to improve trade with Arab countries.


I personally don't think they were Mossad, but then I didn't want to believe Pollard was either.

And I don't want to piss you off.. you are actually sounding like you are using your brain unlike several of your fellow countrymen, but the intricate arrangements to both get this passport and post arrest to change appearance... not to mention shyness in front of cameras suggests these guys aren't street thugs or petty criminals. If they aren't Mossad they are certainly "trained" very well.


The norges and Jordanians didn`t have any difficulties to provide evidences, followed by flat excuses from Israel, so whats going on here?

Echelon is supposed to be secret... it is an open secret but it will not be discussed in public.


Here they cought stealing freeking passports !!! Forging passports for god sake !! How hard it is to forge passports in Israel ? Yes , even the new ones .

Obviously too hard.


Don't you think that it's a bit stupid to buy fake passports in the country where you suppose to use it ? Kinda very dumb ?

Which shows how much you know... they were going to steal the identity of a New Zealand citizen and use that identity to get a legitimate passport. The victim is some poor guy in a wheelchair.

Read the first post:

The plot, which involved obtaining a passport in the name of a tetraplegic man who had not spoken in years, provoked a furious reaction yesterday.

Not to mention that NZ tried to handle this discretely:


Ms Clark said Israel had ignored requests made three months ago for an explanation and an apology.

And how about reading this bit again too:


The clue led to the uncovering of a complex conspiracy involving up to four Israeli agents, who had attempted to create a false identity for 36-year-old fugitive Zev Barkan using a fraudulent birth certificate, a fake voicemail message and letter box, and concocted medical symptoms.

Uriel Kelman, 30, and Eli Cara, 50, were each sentenced to six months in prison yesterday for their involvement in the plot. Both men had gone to elaborate steps to conceal their identities: Kelman appeared at the court wearing a balaclava and covered his face throughout the two-hour hearing, while Cara had changed his hair colour, complexion and build since his first court appearance in March.

Mr Barkan and a fourth man believed to have been connected to the plot are still on the run. Mr Barkan lived in a house just a few hundred metres from his target, a wheelchair user who has not been named for legal reasons. Cara set up a false travel agency in Sydney to aid the deception.

A birth certificate was obtained using details of the man's mother, who now lives in England, and an Auckland doctor was persuaded to witness Mr Barkan's passport application after seeing him for a couple of minor ailments.

Kelman and Cara were arrested in March following a prolonged cat-and-mouse game in Auckland, sparked off after police traced phone records between Mr Barkan and the two men.

Officers planned to arrest the ringleaders as they picked up the completed passport, but Cara had pre-empted this by having it sent by courier to an apartment block, where it was to be collected by a taxi driver and taken to a rendezvous with Kelman elsewhere in Auckland.

Police surveillance caught Cara acting suspiciously, close to the central Auckland apartment block, while Kelman was arrested after fleeing the other rendezvous and throwing his mobile phone into a hedge.

Israel's acting ambassador in Australia, Orma Sagiv, said Israel would work to rebuild relations with New Zealand.

"Israel values its relations with New Zealand very much and we will do everything we can to return relations to their former situation," she said.

In Jerusalem, Silvan Shalom, the Israeli foreign minister, said Israel was disappointed with New Zealand's reaction.

"Israel is very sorry about the decision that was taken by the [New Zealand] government," Mr Shalom said. "But we believe that if we will work with each other as we used to work in the past, we will overcome the last difficulty."

Mossad has frequently been accused of using fake passports to launch its operations. A 1997 incident in which Mossad agents used fake Canadian passports in an attempt to assassinate the Hamas leader, Sheikh Khaled Mashal, caused the Israeli ambassador to be ordered out of Canada until Tel Aviv promised to cease the practice.

[citizen-k]

Too long thread...

The Mossad need those passports - yet it's not legal to do what they did, so?

They will server their time in prison and thats that.

NZ is got to do something to make it clear they are not giving their passport for free - they can't be blamed for it.

(And the Mossad can't be blamed for trying to do it again and again since those passports ARE needed...)

Its war - sometimes you win and sometimes you lose...

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

That NZ gov takes some kind of bullsit excuse to improve it`s relation with the arab world is no news to us, France did the same in 67, as well as most of europe in 73.

Yeah right. Thats why we've had Achmed Zauoi locked up for the last 18 odd months on suspicion of terrorist ties.
Thats why we had combat troops in A-stan within six weeks of 9/11.


check your facts 1


So you used double standart in that case...cuz we can't block you from Entering Israel cuz you whouldn't give a ****...

We haven't blocked anyone from entering NZ. We just demand your diplomats apply for a visa now. Ordinary Israelis aren't effected.

check your facts 2

Unlike some country's we don't punish an entire population because of the actions of a few ****heads......




Just to add one more thing, Intelligence agencies don't try to get fake passports, they can make them on their own, they try to get real thing.


Right, and what happened in Canada in '97? Ask any customs guy, the best 'fake' passport doesn't beat a real passport.

[UoUo]

Unlike some country's we don't punish an entire population because of the actions of a few ****heads......

.

Thats why i don't give a dammm about new zealnd...

[Moledet]

Right, and what happened in Canada in '97? Ask any customs guy, the best 'fake' passport doesn't beat a real passport.

Maybe you should check your facts, because nothing happend in Canada. Israel sent Mossad agents with Canadian passports to Jordan to assassinate an Islamic terror organization top leader, they easily passed the boarder check and had no problem with the fake passports. Then they attacked the leader in the street and injected poison from an umbrella into his neck, then his bodyguard came and took out his gun, because they didn't have guns they surendered. The bodyguard turned them over to the Jordanian Police and only then they found out that the Passports are fake Canadian passports.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

UoUo wrote,

Ngati Tumatuenga wrote:


Unlike some country's we don't punish an entire population because of the actions of a few ****heads......

.


Thats why i don't give a dammm about new zealnd...

Why?, because we don't punish the many for the actions of the few?. Like anyone in this country gives a **** about your opinion....

Moledet wrote,

Ngati Tumatuenga wrote:

Right, and what happened in Canada in '97? Ask any customs guy, the best 'fake' passport doesn't beat a real passport.


Maybe you should check your facts, because nothing happend in Canada. Israel sent Mossad agents with Canadian passports to Jordan to assassinate an Islamic terror organization top leader, they easily passed the boarder check and had no problem with the fake passports. Then they attacked the leader in the street and injected poison from an umbrella into his neck, then his bodyguard came and took out his gun, because they didn't have guns they surendered. The bodyguard turned them over to the Jordanian Police and only then they found out that the Passports are fake Canadian passports.

Thats what I was alluding too. And thats why the New Zealand government is unhappy. Conducting criminal acts or what have you with another countries passports automatically puts its citizens at risk.

You think we should accept that?.

Would your country if the reverse happened?

Whatever, Pokokohua......

[GazB]

Why?, because we don't punish the many for the actions of the few?. Like anyone in this country gives a **** about your opinion....

But I really care about being his friend. His friendship is very important to me... so let me see:


Ngati Tumatuenga wrote:


Unlike some country's we don't punish an entire population because of the actions of a few ****heads......


and then Uouo wrote:


Thats why i don't give a dammm about new zealnd...

So therefore the act of these two Israelis means that all Israelis are criminals and should be locked up in New Zealand Jails. If all Israelis... past an present are criminals then perhaps we should start removing their places of worship and graves and things from New Zealand... boy... it sounds like those a$$holes that were desecrating Israeli graves were Uouos best friends. Still if disturbing the resting places of the dead is what it takes to be your friend and ally Uouo I think I'll pass on trying to gain your friendship. I don't have enough hate in me to attack the innocent dead. Still I guess where you are living you have more than enough hate... and I am glad you keep it there. You and the nutty palestinians (as opposed to the non nutty palestinians) have so much in common you deserve each other. Shame everyone there (sensible Israelis and Sensible Palestinians) are caught up in your stupid game.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

GazB wrote,

Still I guess where you are living you have more than enough hate... and I am glad you keep it there. You and the nutty palestinians (as opposed to the non nutty palestinians) have so much in common you deserve each other. Shame everyone there (sensible Israelis and Sensible Palestinians) are caught up in your stupid game.

You know I think you hit the nail on the head GazB. After reading all the virulent, hateful ****e posted on this thread by moledet, UoUo, Javehn etc it appears to me there can be little hope for peace in the middle east populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they. Add the unrepentant, 'we can do no wrong', class of Palestinians that exists to match their Israeli counterparts and it really does seem quite depressing.

Again for those who can't figure it out. New Zealand doesn't punish or condemn an entire country because of the actions of a few of its citizens or even its government.

We don't choose sides because someone tells us too or threatens us.

Our country's domestic and foreign policys aren't driven by what other countries, friendly or otherwise think of us.

You want to judge us?, feel free. Plenty of countries in the world have a worse track record than us.

[IDFM203]

GazB wrote,

Still I guess where you are living you have more than enough hate... and I am glad you keep it there. You and the nutty palestinians (as opposed to the non nutty palestinians) have so much in common you deserve each other. Shame everyone there (sensible Israelis and Sensible Palestinians) are caught up in your stupid game.

You know I think you hit the nail on the head GazB. After reading all the virulent, hateful ****e posted on this thread by moledet, UoUo, Javehn etc it appears to me there can be little hope for peace in the middle east populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they. Add the unrepentant, 'we can do no wrong', class of Palestinians that exists to match their Israeli counterparts and it really does seem quite depressing.

Again for those who can't figure it out. New Zealand doesn't punish or condemn an entire country because of the actions of a few of its citizens or even its government. .This last sentence contradicts with your first paragraph for right there in that paragraph you paint all Israelis (“populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they”) based on your encounters with just a few on a internet forum :cantbeli: :roll:


Secondly I did not read this whole thread and well perhaps I should, however something tells me that even if they overreacted, they didn’t merely do so without any provocation from some of you.



The way I see this situation in general and with your post here is as follows.....................

One, is that as of yet, there has been NO PROOF whatsoever that they were Mossad.

Two, this suspension of relations over a incident that IMO I believe almost every other western nation does as well and well you don’t suspend relation to them (even though IMO I believe you know that other also use your passports as well as others).

Third, I now ask, did you suspemd relations with France for example after that incident……..(I don’t know if you did or not, though I ask to see if I can find at least any consistency to alleviate somewhat my fears of the usual overblown and unprecedented reaction when anything involves Israel).


Four, what’s sad is that already Jewish graves have been desecrated and well where is the outcry from the people over New Zealand for that?

Lastly, yes your upset and indeed if it was Mossad agents, I can guarantee you that most Israelis are very embarrassed and indeed most citizens would feel apologetic, however as of now we haven’t seen that (they were Mossad agents), and also at least from what I know, most don’t have a F*ck you attitude, though at the same time it would be nice if everyone else got off their high horse for I don’t think anyone else has the right to be on there when I believe they themselves act as such.


We don't choose sides because someone tells us too or threatens us. .Again like last time, this is a absurd statement and I fully grasp your insinuations and I think its flat wrong for none of us threatened you and don’t play it like some vast Zionist power or the Israeli government tried to threaten you and “we New Zealanders don’t play that game”, for none of that even happened.

Of course the Israeli government or any other government would try to exert some pressure to release its citizens, spies or no spies, however IMHO that’s normal to do.


Our country's domestic and foreign policys aren't driven by what other countries, friendly or otherwise think of us. .I would disagree with that a bit in general but I will grant you that your right in this case with pertaining to this incident (and indeed I agree that you have every right to think and act that way)



You want to judge us?,What seems clear is that you already did this to us way before anyone of us ever even tried to pass judgment on you if anyone has in fact even attempted to.



Anyways just my take on things, though like I have said before on this forum, what’s a absolute certainty on this forum is that I should expect some disagreement and that not everyone will agree fully with what I have written here ;)

Shalom :D

[Flagg]

IDFM203:


something tells me that even if they overreacted, they didn’t merely do so without any provocation from some of you.

The overreaction and provocation came entirely from your patch.....read the thread.

As YOU YOURSELF have done, we simply responded rationally, until they stepped over the line REPEATEDLY.

Point your finger where it belongs..close to home.


my fears of the usual overblown and unprecedented reaction when anything involves Israel

Frankly, I'm quite frustrated at seeing comments like this.....it all too often seems to be used like a Monopoly "Get out of jail free" card.

The "Everyone hates us" myth seems to be turning into a curse.....if you say something enough times, it becomes true


This last sentence contradicts with your first paragraph for right there in that paragraph you paint all Israelis (“populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they”) based on your encounters with just a few on a internet forum

You took this entirely out of context......I clearly interpreted Ngati's meaning as a minority of people on both sides taking an approach that is so aggressive that it undermines support from even staunch supporters....how relevant considering how these two threads developed.


Four, what’s sad is that already Jewish graves have been desecrated and well where is the outcry from the people over New Zealand for that?

Have a look at what I and GazB wrote.....it's a hell of a lot more respectful than what we received in return.....and what precipitated this ugly and lengthly thread.

Outcry?

The passport story is page 4

The vandalism story is Page 1 headline

Funny that...

[alexbmn]

i'm sorry New Zealand? why did they even bother? The country is somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. If Antarctica declares sanctions thats gonna suck way more.

[IDFM203]

IDFM203:


something tells me that even if they overreacted, they didn’t merely do so without any provocation from some of you.

The overreaction and provocation came entirely from your patch.....read the thread.

As YOU YOURSELF have done, we simply responded rationally, until they stepped over the line REPEATEDLY.

Point your finger where it belongs..close to home. ... well I scanned over this thread and frankly I did see some others use a tone and a clear assertiveness that did cause one or two to overreact, however I repeat I didn’t excel see ONLY they react over the top in this thread.

Secondly I did not deny before that perhaps a few of “our” comments were over the top and as such there is no need to lecture me on how to point the finger at my own, though all I am pointing out is that I didn’t merely see all this hostility simple ONLY from their comments for frankly it was also coming at us as well (and lets not forget that there aren’t only New Zealanders and Israelis posting in this thread).

.


my fears of the usual overblown and unprecedented reaction when anything involves Israel

Frankly, I'm quite frustrated at seeing comments like this.....it all too often seems to be used like a Monopoly "Get out of jail free" card. ...no its not a get out of jail free cards and we never use it as such!!! All we ever ask (and what my point is) is to be treated just like you would treat yourselves or others that are not Israeli, though with all due respect to you, in general (not specificly refering to New Zeland), I strongly disagree with you and indeed I do stand by that in a lot of cases in history indeed I do stand by my statement that we do get unfair treatment in terms of fair proportionality in terms of what we do right or wrong and how others treat or respond to it and how they act and respond to when others do the very same thing (including themselves).


Btw on this topic, so did you suspend relations with France like you have done with us?

You see that question has nothing to do with me wanting to have a “get out of jail free card”, simply it inquires if you treat Israel here just like you treat others when they face similar cases.


The "Everyone hates us" myth seems to be turning into a curse.....if you say something enough times, it becomes true ...Sadly, I would say a majority of the world doesn’t like us………..yes I do believe that. Am I wrong?

Btw this statement has nothing to do whatsoever with this incident now involving Israeli citizens and New Zealand and how you have responded.



This last sentence contradicts with your first paragraph for right there in that paragraph you paint all Israelis (“populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they”) based on your encounters with just a few on a internet forum

You took this entirely out of context......I clearly interpreted Ngati's meaning as a minority of people on both sides taking an approach that is so aggressive that it undermines support from even staunch supporters....how relevant considering how these two threads developed. Well it would be out of context if indeed he did uses words like you did NOW, like “minority of people”, however he did NOT and in fact with the ebb and flow of his writing and then interjecting “it appears to me there can be little hope for peace in the middle east populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they”..Well that seems like he meant more then just a mere minority.

Secondly perhaps you can explain it to me a bit more for I didn’t get from his post how he was a staunch supporter and then because of them, well now he’s not and also if that’s the case as you imply well that’s still a contradiction for then he is supposedly losing support simply based on the views of a few here.



Four, what’s sad is that already Jewish graves have been desecrated and well where is the outcry from the people over New Zealand for that?

Have a look at what I and GazB wrote...... ...I wasn’t referring to you guys here in this forum and indeed like I said I did not read the whole thread (btw have you mentioned anything regarding the desecration of those graves?), I asked in general in New Zealand, where is the public outcry?? Is there even one?


Shalom :D

[Tributal]

For all our Israeli friends who claim there are no proof, how come the Israeli government hasn't come out with a denial of any involvement? From what I can tell all that has been said from the Israeli side is that they're sorry New Zealand has reacted this way and that they hope to normalize the relations between the two countries. Not quite a denial of involvement now, is it?

Javehn, I'm trying to understand your logic in blaming New Zealand for the what the Palestinians are saying. Ever hear the proverb "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Of course the Palestinians are going to try to get on New Zealands good side. Any chance they get they'll try to raise international condemnation against Israel. They just figured the Kiwis would be more apt to agree with them now that there "hard feelings" between the two nations, but that can hardly be New Zealands fault.

Furthermore, I would like to point out that regardless how good the Israeli spy shops are at making forged passports it could be beneficial to have access to genuine (though fraudulently obtained) passports from neutral countries. Especially if one can establish that the passports were first used in travel from the issuing nation. Makes them harder to trace back to Israel (or any other country than the issuing nation for that matter.)

Also, IDFM203, just because every nation may or may not try to obtain each others' passports on fraudelant basis doesn't mean they should look the other way when they catch someone doing it. "It's okay, everyone's doing it" has never been (and hopefully never will be) a good defense for breaking the law.

Then again, Israel is infamous for betraying the trust of friendly nations, often doing so without it being neccessary. For example (since it's already been mentioned) they could've presented the Norwegians with what proof they believed to have and asked them (the Norwegians) to take action rather than going in and doing it and hope no one would be any wiser.

Sure, the average Joe in Israel probably does not see Israel as being "at war" with the rest of the world, however, my guess is that the average Joe is neither a member of Mossad or privy to information about Mossad's operations. Mossad seems to conduct itself as though it's at a state of war (or at best on un-friendly terms) with the rest of the world, and therefore does it's business with a very holds barred manner. What's Mossad's motto again?

Also, the idea that New Zealand was trying to kiss up to the arab nations was hatched by one of our Israeli members, funny that - that kissing up to the arabs would be the only reason for New Zealand to react harshly towards Israel.

Finally, before you start jumping on people right and left on the forums, try to take the time to actually read through the entire threads before posting, especially if you feel like taking sides.

[IDFM203]

Also, IDFM203, just because every nation may or may not try to obtain each others' passports on fraudelant basis doesn't mean they should look the other way when they catch someone doing it. "It's okay, everyone's doing it" has never been (and hopefully never will be) a good defense for breaking the law. If you read my posts carefully you sill see I NEVER used that defense, for indeed if they are PROVEN to be Mossad agents, well its wrong and I have said that before (and in fact I agreed we should apologize), my whole point is not to take a way from the wrong of it, but rather that others should get off any high horse that anyone of you might think your on, for usually your own nations do it as well and a further point I made is the whole IMO over blown reaction of suspending relations when again other nations do it as well but I don’t see New Zealand suspending relations with them.

I hope its clear that if they are Mossad agents, I am not at all saying they shouldn’t get punished or that Israel shouldn’t get reprimanded from New Zealand simply because everyone else does it, all I am asking for is to be treated just like they treat others when the same type of situation comes up (and I bet a lot of it from other nations don’t even make it to the public media and are just handled quietly in back channels, but yes I do admit in the latter that’s speculation on my part)


Then again, Israel is infamous for betraying the trust of friendly nations, often doing so without it being neccessary. With all due respect we IMO get betrayed as often as you claim we do it and also by what is supposedly “friendly nations”

I personally think we are infamous for exactly my previous point of the full blown media and public overreaction which IMO is contrary to the same things happening with other nations that IMO do not get very little if any media attention.

Secondly I don’t think Israel acts any more then any other western nation does (remember all nations even friendly ones spy on each other or use other passports).

Thirdly, can you tell me what incident you are referring to in Norway?



Sure, the average Joe in Israel probably does not see Israel as being "at war" with the rest of the world, however, my guess is that the average Joe is neither a member of Mossad or privy to information about Mossad's operations. Mossad seems to conduct itself as though it's at a state of war (or at best on un-friendly terms) with the rest of the world, and therefore does it's business with a very holds barred manner. Yes we are a state of war but not against the world.

I think you fail to understand one critical detail, when Mossad say spies in another nation, it isn’t per say spying on that nation but rather its on some of the “foreign” elements in that nation that are there that really are our immediate enemies that in turn go to your nations and its after those people that we spy on, not the daily affairs or the average citizens of your nations.


What's Mossad's motto again? :cantbeli: This is exactly what I am talking about………..gee I guess only the Mossad uses deception…………wow who would have thought that what I thought all along what is the very nature of spying, which is inherently all about deception, here you go insinuating how its only a Mossad trait :roll:

In more simple terms, a spy agency using deception, who would have thought of it? :roll:


Also, the idea that New Zealand was trying to kiss up to the arab nations was hatched by one of our Israeli members, I didn’t see that comment but I would say in general politics, New Zealand does side alot more with the Arabs then it does with Israel.


Finally, before you start jumping on people right and left on the forums, try to take the time to actually read through the entire threads before posting, especially if you feel like taking sides. Is this directed at me?

If so, I advise you to back down, I am not jumping at anyone and certainly not on how you imply (left and right etc…)

I simply responded to a few posts and I felt that I didn’t need to read the whole thread to respond to it and what points did pertain to before, I admitted I did not read every detail and as such I didn’t jump on them, I merely stated my brief observation that I felt I was correct on based on a brief scan of the entire thread.

Shalom :D

[Tributal]

Also, IDFM203, just because every nation may or may not try to obtain each others' passports on fraudelant basis doesn't mean they should look the other way when they catch someone doing it. "It's okay, everyone's doing it" has never been (and hopefully never will be) a good defense for breaking the law. If you read my posts carefully you sill see I NEVER used that defense, for indeed if they are PROVEN to be Mossad agents, well its wrong and I have said that before (and in fact I agreed we should apologize), my whole point is not to take a way from the wrong of it, but rather that others should get off any high horse that anyone of you might think your on, for usually your own nations do it as well and a further point I made is the whole IMO over blown reaction of suspending relations when again other nations do it as well but I don’t see New Zealand suspending relations with them.Okay, you're missing the point here - have NZ caught anyone of any other nationality trying to obtain NZ passports on fraudulent basis? Not to my knowledge, but I'm sure NZ would react the same way if it was to happen. And, to the NZ government's credit it seems as though they tried to settle everything quietly, but when Israel stonewalled them they had to drag things out in the open. No one is on high horses here.



I hope its clear that if they are Mossad agents, I am not at all saying they shouldn’t get punished or that Israel shouldn’t get reprimanded from New Zealand simply because everyone else does it, all I am asking for is to be treated just like they treat others when the same type of situation comes up (and I bet a lot of it from other nations don’t even make it to the public media and are just handled quietly in back channels, but yes I do admit in the latter that’s speculation on my part)Okay, though my ending paragraph wasn't intended for you in particular, but for people in general that post without reading whole threads, I really do urge you to take the time and read the whole thread - at least the article in the first post. I don't see how you can expect to have an intelligent conversation about a subject you seem to know nothing or very little about - the New Zealand government did try to settle this through back channels.




Then again, Israel is infamous for betraying the trust of friendly nations, often doing so without it being neccessary. With all due respect we IMO get betrayed as often as you claim we do it...And why do you think that is?



and also by what is supposedly “friendly nations”Well, was New Zealand an enemy or unfriendly prior to this incident?



Secondly I don’t think Israel acts any more then any other western nation does (remember all nations even friendly ones spy on each other or use other passports).Yes, all nations do keep an eye on each other, but using each others' passports is not something that is common practice for most countries. Does the U.S. do it? Probably yes. The French? Yeah probably so. The Israeli's? Yes. Any others? Yeah, probably. All others? No.



Thirdly, can you tell me what incident you are referring to in Norway?Oh, that would be the one where a Mossad hit squad killed a innocent Algerian waiter, working in a Lillehammer restaurant, in the belief that he was a terrorist. Here's the excerpt from GlobalSecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/israel/mossad.htm):
"In Lillehammer, Norway, on 07 January 1974, Mossad agents mistakenly killed Ahmad Boushiki, an Algerian waiter carrying a Moroccan passport, whom they mistook for PLO security head Ali Ahmad Salameh, believed to have masterminded the 1972 massacre of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics [Salameh was killed in a 1979 car-bomb explosion in Lebanon]. Following the attack, the Mossad agents were arrested and tried before a Norwegian court. Five Israeli agents were convicted and served short jail sentences, though Israel denied responsibility for the murder. In February 1996, the Israeli government agreed to compensate the family of Ahmad Boushiki."




Sure, the average Joe in Israel probably does not see Israel as being "at war" with the rest of the world, however, my guess is that the average Joe is neither a member of Mossad or privy to information about Mossad's operations. Mossad seems to conduct itself as though it's at a state of war (or at best on un-friendly terms) with the rest of the world, and therefore does it's business with a very holds barred manner. Yes we are a state of war but not against the world.That's what I said.



I think you fail to understand one critical detail, when Mossad say spies in another nation, it isn’t per say spying on that nation but rather its on some of the “foreign” elements in that nation that are there that really are our immediate enemies that in turn go to your nations and its after those people that we spy on, not the daily affairs or the average citizens of your nations.Yes, but what we are talking about here is a fraudulent attempt at obtaining another nation's passport. How does that play into spying on foreign elements in New Zealand?




What's Mossad's motto again? :cantbeli: This is exactly what I am talking about………..gee I guess only the Mossad uses deception…………wow who would have thought that what I thought all along what is the very nature of spying, which is inherently all about deception, here you go insinuating how its only a Mossad trait :roll:

In more simple terms, a spy agency using deception, who would have thought of it? :roll: Yeah, take it out of context. I think you would understand what I meant if you read the book "By Way of Deception" by Victor Ostrovsky.




Also, the idea that New Zealand was trying to kiss up to the arab nations was hatched by one of our Israeli members, I didn’t see that comment but I would say in general politics, New Zealand does side alot more with the Arabs then it does with Israel.
How so, please elaborate?




Finally, before you start jumping on people right and left on the forums, try to take the time to actually read through the entire threads before posting, especially if you feel like taking sides. Is this directed at me?Nope, that was a statement in general. But if the shoe fits...



I simply responded to a few posts and I felt that I didn’t need to read the whole thread to respond to it and what points did pertain to before, I admitted I did not read every detail and as such I didn’t jump on them, I merely stated my brief observation that I felt I was correct on based on a brief scan of the entire thread.I think you and everyone else would be well served in reading the whole thread (the opening article and the posts of all those who you wish to defend) prior to making any posts of your own.

[Flagg]

well I scanned over this thread and frankly I did see some others use a tone and a clear assertiveness that did cause one or two to overreact, however I repeat I didn’t excel see ONLY they react over the top in this thread.

Well....I'll say it again....look at who initiated and escalated the BS....would you just sit back and allow someone to unjustifiably insult your home?


Secondly I did not deny before that perhaps a few of “our” comments were over the top and as such there is no need to lecture me on how to point the finger at my own, though all I am pointing out is that I didn’t merely see all this hostility simple ONLY from their comments for frankly it was also coming at us as well (and lets not forget that there aren’t only New Zealanders and Israelis posting in this thread).

justifiable self-defense


Frankly, I'm quite frustrated at seeing comments like this.....it all too often seems to be used like a Monopoly "Get out of jail free" card. ...
no its not a get out of jail free cards and we never use it as such!!! All we ever ask (and what my point is) is to be treated just like you would treat yourselves or others that are not Israeli, though with all due respect to you, in general (not specificly refering to New Zeland), I strongly disagree with you and indeed I do stand by that in a lot of cases in history indeed I do stand by my statement that we do get unfair treatment in terms of fair proportionality in terms of what we do right or wrong and how others treat or respond to it and how they act and respond to when others do the very same thing (including themselves).

Everyone and every nations has been placed in lousy situations/been taken advantage of/abused/etc.


Even mentioning "mistreatment" or "unfair treatment" being a possibility in this case is totally unfair, as there is no precedent between the two nations to even consider it as a possibility.

mentioning the "possibility" of unfair treatment towards Israel by New Zealand is just as likely as Israel having a racial/cultural/political bias against New Zealand and it's people....it's absurd.


Btw on this topic, so did you suspend relations with France like you have done with us?

A deal was reached with France......they blatantly and publicly violated it.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me ;)


You see that question has nothing to do with me wanting to have a “get out of jail free card”, simply it inquires if you treat Israel here just like you treat others when they face similar cases.

Treatment in this case was deemed appropriate......press clipping I've seen from various parts of the worlds do not deem the treatment as being unfair or biased.....there were 3 months to put this issue to bed.


Sadly, I would say a majority of the world doesn’t like us………..yes I do believe that. Am I wrong?

So that means a highly regarded non-aligned nation without influence or desire for influence in the region is assumed to be biased against Israel?


Well it would be out of context if indeed he did uses words like you did NOW, like “minority of people”, however he did NOT and in fact with the ebb and flow of his writing and then interjecting “it appears to me there can be little hope for peace in the middle east populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they”..Well that seems like he meant more then just a mere minority.

We will have to wait for Ngati to respond to that......

However, I can say his post history stands as quite well reasoned and reasonable.....when people are, I assume the best when something is up for interpretation.


Secondly perhaps you can explain it to me a bit more for I didn’t get from his post how he was a staunch supporter and then because of them, well now he’s not and also if that’s the case as you imply well that’s still a contradiction for then he is supposedly losing support simply based on the views of a few here.

Again...Ngati can cover this......

However, I interpreted it myself as several people who by their comments are not leaving a positive impression of their nation, in fact, quite the opposite. And how opinions like that, in extremis, can get quite ugly.



I wasn’t referring to you guys here in this forum and indeed like I said I did not read the whole thread (btw have you mentioned anything regarding the desecration of those graves?)

Yes...I did comment...if you'd like you can read it.


I asked in general in New Zealand, where is the public outcry?? Is there even one?

First page of my weekend newpaper: "Jewish graves attacked"

The article covers both official government and public reaction......disgust

At the moment, it is a higher profile issue than the passport debacle....and it is receiving greater than typical resources assigned to dealing with it.

As it should, as hate related crimes rank up there with rape and child abuse in my book.

[Moledet]

Tributal, when they were captured, Israel denied that they are Mossad agents.

Again, why don't you judge them for spying? If they are spies they need to be judged for spying.

Also, all the criminals here put their shirt over their face when the media try to picture them, it's common here.

[martinexsquaddie]

sounds like they were carrying on a bit spook like to me.

[gilgoul]

[

Lets keep reasonable :D
Without starting any other flame war, I am just trying to get what we know and don`t know.

That two or more Israeli nationals tried to illegally obtain a NZ passport using the identity of a handicapped NZ national.
That the accent of one of the guy aroused suspicion.
That the guys had a somewhat elaborated scheme, involving two other people still one the run, a fake travel agency in australia, a fake adress and complicity of locals (for money).
That NZ governement handled the affair "quietly" for 2 month, asking the state of Israel for an explanation that wasn`t provided.

Their behaviour is "suspicious", since they try to hide or change their appearance in a very "professional" way.

What i`m asking for is just more elements, in any way I`m not trying to defend israelis who commit crimes abroad, I have a real contempt and anger toward those kind of people who are just contributing to give Israel a bad name.




As I said before, give me evidences, `ill humbly ask for forgiveness and do penitence. but so far, the elements of "evidence" provided are peanuts.
They are even contradictory one one ground.
If the mossad was sending someone with an "accent", it would have reached a all time low. Israel has enough english native speakers to be able to recruit someone without any accent.
The operating mode of the cell is "sophisticated" indeed, but very far from the closed cells system, too many people are knowing and revealing the wherebouts of too manyy people. So, either it`s "sophisticated" crime, or really low, low low spook job.
That Israel did not "explain" or apologized to NZ yet is also perturbing, either our governement really lost it and needs to be changed, or it saw nothing to aoplogize for since it wasn`t it`s own initiative or wasn`t done by it`s agencies.
In conclusion, if it was to come out that the culprits were indeed mossad agents, we should present full apology to NZ, fire the security service boss and reform all this system, because this level of work would be an embarrasement for any country.
But if not such a conclusion is reached, I`m talking about solid evidences and facts, and for now that is where I stand, it would be very appreciated if everybody was to suck up their accusations and present some kind of apology for "accusing without proof".
In any way, what those Israelis did is a serious crime, and they should rot in jail for more than the lenient 6 month sentence, because their crime is a stain and an insult on two nations, New Zealand and Israel.

Ok, I got to go finish my beer :D

[Sayeret]

I don't think this is too much of a big deal since I don't think that New Zealand has anything too important. Another thing spies are in almost every country so I'm not too surprised Israeli spies were in New Zealand. Everyone uses spies against everyone else the US spies on Great Britain, Britain spies on France, etc.

I believe that the Israelis should be given a fair trial and they should try to choose jurors who are neutral on their stance towards the Middle East. If they get punished it should be because their spies and not Israelis. I think that it is kind of extreme to cancel high-level visits visa restrictions imposed for Israeli officials, and an expected visit to New Zealand by Moshe Katsov, the Israeli president, later this year has been cancelled.

Parts of the story such as the part about the Israeli accent sounds weird but I'm not sure at the moment what to make of it.

[GazB]

One, is that as of yet, there has been NO PROOF whatsoever that they were Mossad.

They weren't convicted of being Mossad agents as that isn't against the law here. They were convicted of attempted identity theft and were found guilty. Our PM has asked for an official appology from Israel, which suggests she believes these individuals were working for Mossad and not some criminal gang. She is very unlikely to disclose why she thinks they were Mossad... such things are not discussed in the media.


Two, this suspension of relations over a incident that IMO I believe almost every other western nation does as well and well you don’t suspend relation to them (even though IMO I believe you know that other also use your passports as well as others).


As she stated today when told that Hamas has congratulated her on her actions, if they had been Hamas members or any other nationality that committed the crime they would be in jail now too. These two were put in jail not because they are Israeli, but because of what they did.


I don’t know if you did or not, though I ask to see if I can find at least any consistency to alleviate somewhat my fears of the usual overblown and unprecedented reaction when anything involves Israel).


This overblown reaction of arresting two criminals and asking for an appology from their government because their government in this case seems to have been heavily involved has nothing to do with religion or anything else. Israel was caught doing this before and appologised... we expect no less now. It is not a case of our overblown reaction, but your inconsistancy in appologising to Canada, but not us.


Four, what’s sad is that already Jewish graves have been desecrated and well where is the outcry from the people over New Zealand for that?


There probably would have been a bigger outcry over this rediculous act but when it occurs just after the conviction of two criminals and the country that perhaps sent them to commit the crime uses the incident to paint us as the bad guys we think many things... like... how convenient for the Israelis this happened.


Lastly, yes your upset and indeed if it was Mossad agents, I can guarantee you that most Israelis are very embarrassed and indeed most citizens would feel apologetic,

I couldn't give a flying Fk if it was Mossad or the Israeli branch of the boy scouts. Two Israelis thought we would be a soft touch and tried to use us. Hope they make lots of friends and their dance cards are never empty over the next 6 months.


i'm sorry New Zealand? why did they even bother? The country is somewhere between Mars and Jupiter. If Antarctica declares sanctions thats gonna suck way more.

Given the choice of Israel, or ground zero (NYC) I think NZ is not too bad a place to call home. It isn't perfect by any means, but there are no metal detectors at the gates of our schools.


Btw on this topic, so did you suspend relations with France like you have done with us?

We have not suspended relations with Israel... all we have done is cancelled a few high level visits and imposed visa restrictions on Israeli officials. Considering there are at least two other accomplists on the lamb I think that is sensible.


“it appears to me there can be little hope for peace in the middle east populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they”..Well that seems like he meant more then just a mere minority.

How many idiots does it take to stop peace? One idiot a week... 100 idiots out of how many million there could prevent peace talks simply by blowing themselves up one a week every week for two years. Demands for peace for x number of weeks before peace talks can resume just makes the job of the idiots easier.


Tributal, when they were captured, Israel denied that they are Mossad agents.


Wouldn't be much of a secret spy agency if as soon as each member was captured for a non spying related crime the host country blabbed that they were spies.
Mossad wouldn't last long as an org if that were the case.


Again, why don't you judge them for spying? If they are spies they need to be judged for spying.


They weren't spying. They were stealing a tetraplegics identity.


If the mossad was sending someone with an "accent", it would have reached a all time low. Israel has enough english native speakers to be able to recruit someone without any accent.

Without an accent? You mean Mossad have plenty of operatives that speak perfect New Zealand English? They don't even have an embassy here... if you try to fake a New Zealand accent don't you think the best person to catch you out is another New Zealander? Does Australia do our customs checks for us? Any little mistake would be obvious to most Kiwis and look rather more suspicious than someone with an american sounding accent applying for a passport.


I don't think this is too much of a big deal since I don't think that New Zealand has anything too important.

That is funny, I was thinking roughly the same thing about Israel. We do FA trade with you and you are not even important enough for you to have an embassy here so I really don't care if you appologise or not.
Lets face it you will really only be appologising for getting caught... and an insincere appology is not worth much anyway.


I believe that the Israelis should be given a fair trial and they should try to choose jurors who are neutral on their stance towards the Middle East.

They have been tried and sentenced to 6 months jail. They were caught several months ago.


I think that it is kind of extreme to cancel high-level visits visa restrictions imposed for Israeli officials, and an expected visit to New Zealand by Moshe Katsov, the Israeli president, later this year has been cancelled.


If you send officials here they might try to get some illegal passports too. :-)


The Mossad plot was uncovered in March when a passport officer noticed that a passport applicant was speaking with a Canadian or American accent.



Parts of the story such as the part about the Israeli accent sounds weird but I'm not sure at the moment what to make of it.

Didn't realise that a Canadian or American accent was an Israeli accent...

[GazB]

Deleted... double post.

[Moledet]

Again I'll ask, they are spies, they are on a foreign ground, why they are not judged for spying? You can't know if they were spying or not. When a spy is being caught he is judged for spying.

P.S. Ofcourse that they did some spying work, how did they found out that this boy has no passport? Handicaps here travel to other countries.

[Tributal]

Again I'll ask, they are spies, they are on a foreign ground, why they are not judged for spying? Because they were not caught spying. They were caught trying to fraudulently obtain a NZ passport. Had they been caught spying they would have been charged with spying.



You can't know if they were spying or not. When a spy is being caught he is judged for spying.No. When a spy is caught SPYING they are charged with the crime spying. It's kinda like if the U.S. cultural attaché to Israel (who let's say is a spy, which Israel probably would know) is caught stealing a candy bar in a local store in downtown Jerusalem. Would you charge him with shoplifting or with spying? He wasn't spying when he was caught, so why would you charge him with that?
:bash:



P.S. Ofcourse that they did some spying work, how did they found out that this boy has no passport?How do you prove that they gained that knowledge by spying? What if they were talking to someone about needing to get a passport in a third person's name and the person they were talking to told them, "I know someone who doesn't have one." How is that spying?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

IDFM203 wrote,

This last sentence contradicts with your first paragraph for right there in that paragraph you paint all Israelis (“populated as it is by people with thought processes as flawed as they”) based on your encounters with just a few on a internet forum

How so?, I was refering to the class of Israeli that virulently attacks anyone who critisizes anything Israel says or does, ie UoUo, Javehn, moledet etc. And I was compareing them to the class of Palestinian that thinks and acts in the same way. Nowhere did I insinuate that all israelis were like that.
READ THE PART OF GazB's POST I QUOTED!
Still I guess where you are living you have more than enough hate... and I am glad you keep it there. You and the nutty palestinians (as opposed to the non nutty palestinians) have so much in common you deserve each other. Shame everyone there (sensible Israelis and Sensible Palestinians) are caught up in your stupid game.

Do you get it now?

IDFM203 wrote,

Secondly I did not read this whole thread and well perhaps I should, however something tells me that even if they overreacted, they didn’t merely do so without any provocation from some of you.

Don't take my word for it. Read what your countrymen wrote and then decide for yourself.

IDFM203 wrote,

One, is that as of yet, there has been NO PROOF whatsoever that they were Mossad.

We've been over this before. I've told you I can't divulge details and yes I know how that looks, but, as dumb as these guys acted obviously they didn't carry Mossad ID cards on them (if there is such a thing). There are however other indicators and NZ received intelligence from other sources in dicating who these four worked for.
Why weren't they charged with espionage?, sometimes to act on intelligence would mean compromising the source. Ever heard of coventry in 1941?. Keep in mind there are still two offenders on the run and for them to be brought to trial sucessfully the Crown Prosecution service has to keep the necessary evidence under wraps.
We didn't charge them for whatever crime they intended to use the fraudulent passport for either but obviously they weren't trying to obtain one for ****s and giggles.

IDFM203 wrote,

Two, this suspension of relations over a incident that IMO I believe almost every other western nation does as well and well you don’t suspend relation to them (even though IMO I believe you know that other also use your passports as well as others).

Your generalising. We didn't suspend all relations with your nation as I've allready stated. Ordinary Israeli citizens are free to come and go as they please. We're holding your goverment accountable not your entire population. Have you got any proof to back that last sentence?.

IDFM203 wrote,


Third, I now ask, did you suspemd relations with France for example after that incident……..(I don’t know if you did or not, though I ask to see if I can find at least any consistency to alleviate somewhat my fears of the usual overblown and unprecedented reaction when anything involves Israel).

To a certain extent yes, we used the UN to mediate the dispute but got burned for it and our traditional allies US/UK refused to back us up. As I have already stated we don't play favourites, ie, our nuclear free policy resulted in the USA freezing all military ties with our nation(ANZUS) and that has continued for the last twenty years and yet we were one of the first countries to commit combat troops to Afghanistan. What more proof do you want?

IDFM203 wrote,

Four, what’s sad is that already Jewish graves have been desecrated and well where is the outcry from the people over New Zealand for that?

You can't see it, read it, hear it, therefore it doesn't exist?. After the 9/11 attacks mosques in this country were desecrated and muslims attacked in the streets. Does that satisfy you?. EVERY country has its lunatic fringe who conduct hateful acts. They're actions are always condemned. The majority of our popilation is as disgusted by the sacrelige commited in that cemetery as theye were by the ayyacks on the mosques etc.
I've told you before our country is far from perfect but we do the best we can. For instance New Zealand is only one of three countries in the world who accepts yearly a sizeable quota of refugees from around the world. Go look it up if you don't believe me.

IDFM203 wrote,

Lastly, yes your upset and indeed if it was Mossad agents, I can guarantee you that most Israelis are very embarrassed and indeed most citizens would feel apologetic, however as of now we haven’t seen that (they were Mossad agents), and also at least from what I know, most don’t have a F*ck you attitude, though at the same time it would be nice if everyone else got off their high horse for I don’t think anyone else has the right to be on there when I believe they themselves act as such.

I'll take your word for it, but if your insinuating i'm on my 'high horse' then I suggest you read the whole thread as i've already suggested.
Note how many negative comments were directed at my country before any kiwis replied.
Note the language used by your countrymen compared to that used by mine.
Israelis on this forum are quick to justify their right to self-defence and yet ironically quick to condemn others who defend themselves.......

IDFM203 wrote,

Again like last time, this is a absurd statement and I fully grasp your insinuations and I think its flat wrong for none of us threatened you and don’t play it like some vast Zionist power or the Israeli government tried to threaten you and “we New Zealanders don’t play that game”, for none of that even happened.

I was refering to the Rainbow warrior/nuclear free incidents in the '80s. So no, you don't 'fully grasp' my insinuations.

IDFM203 wrote,

Of course the Israeli government or any other government would try to exert some pressure to release its citizens, spies or no spies, however IMHO that’s normal to do.

Really?, so Israel normaly pressures other countries to release any or all of its citizens accused of crimes irrespective of their guilt?.

IDFM203 wrote,

Quote:

Our country's domestic and foreign policys aren't driven by what other countries, friendly or otherwise think of us. .
I would disagree with that a bit in general but I will grant you that your right in this case with pertaining to this incident (and indeed I agree that you have every right to think and act that way)


Really?, so even though NZ is negotiating with China for a free trade agreement, when the Chinese protested about one of our politicians visiting Taiwan recently we told the chinese government not to interfere in our internal politics. Not really the actions of a 'lap dog' is it?. You want more examples?.

IDFM203 wrote,

Quote:
You want to judge us?,
What seems clear is that you already did this to us way before anyone of us ever even tried to pass judgment on you if anyone has in fact even attempted to.


Again. Third time. Read the whole thread.

Sayeret wrote,

I don't think this is too much of a big deal since I don't think that New Zealand has anything too important. Another thing spies are in almost every country so I'm not too surprised Israeli spies were in New Zealand.

You don't think NZ is important enough to spy on but your not suprised Israei spies are in the country?. :cantbeli:

Sayeret wrote,

I believe that the Israelis should be given a fair trial and they should try to choose jurors who are neutral on their stance towards the Middle East. If they get punished it should be because their spies and not Israelis.

The two criminals did get a fair trial. Jurors weren't needed because they pleaded guilty.

Sayaret wrote,

I think that it is kind of extreme to cancel high-level visits visa restrictions imposed for Israeli officials,

As compared to what?, destroying a Palestinian families house because a relative commited an act of terrorism?.

Moledet wrote,

Tributal, when they were captured, Israel denied that they are Mossad agents.

Wrong. when they were apprehended the Israeli government were asked for an explanation but did not reply.

IDFM203 wrote,

I didn’t see that comment but I would say in general politics, New Zealand does side alot more with the Arabs then it does with Israel.

Well that is ironic then isn't it?, I mean considering we still have elements of 1 NZ SAS Group in Afghanistan conducting direct action missions and our Prime Minister stated publically before OIF that if the UN gave the okay to invade Iraq then NZ would commit troops.

You just don't get it do you.

WE DONT PLAY FAVOURITES!.