All Kids Must Read The Bible - Tony Abbott

[Curtis E. Bear]

AARON LANGMAID
December 19, 2009 04:10pm

BIBLE classes should be compulsory so children have a fundamental understanding of Christianity on leaving school, Tony Abbott says.
"I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation," said the Federal Opposition leader.
"That includes, most importantly, the Bible.

"I think it would be impossible to have a good general education without at least some serious familiarity with the Bible and with the teachings of Christianity.

"That doesn't mean that people have to be believers."

But former Howard government Islamic advisor Dr Ameer Ali, said Mr Abbott's remarks were "over the top".

"It's one thing to say every child needs a good knowledge of history and geography or science," Dr Ali said.

"But it is something else to say all children should have a knowledge of the Bible. That might hurt other people who have their own holy scriptures," he said.

And the Australian Education Union's federal president, Angelo Gavrielatos, said that religion was not a priority for schools.

"There is a place for comparative studies of religion in the curriculum, but ultimately we consider it a private matter for parents and their children," he said.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,26507226-5006301,00.html

Stupid Fcuk.

[Connaught Ranger]

OK. . . . . . . which version of the Bible?

[KahunaSniper]

You know where I'd tell him to shove it.

[Silent Reader]

OK. . . . . . . which version of the Bible?


the one where it says this:

"So The Lord God caused the United Kingdom to fall into a deep sleep; and while it was sleeping, He took one of the Kingdoms's landmasses and closed up the place with ireland. Then The Lord God made a continent from the landmass He had taken out of the Kingdom, and He brought it to the Kingdom. The Kingdom said, "This is now bone of my bones and land of my land; it shall be called 'Australia,' for it was taken out of the United Kingdom." For this reason a Kingdom will leave its continent aka old Europe and be united to his new continent, and they will become one Empire." (Genesis 2:21-24)


:D

[Gungnir]

BIBLE classes should be compulsory so children have a fundamental understanding of Christianity on leaving school, Tony Abbott says.

NO!


"I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation," said the Federal Opposition leader.
"That includes, most importantly, the Bible.

yes


"I think it would be impossible to have a good general education without at least some serious familiarity with the Bible and with the teachings of Christianity.

Yes, i agree


The Bible... is important. The social, political, religious... historical impact and role is undeniable.
If they are forcing the religious aspects... then that I oppose
If they are discussing the 'story', historical aspect of the Bible and the social impact then right on.

It is also necessary to teach or explain the other major religions. Knowledge a cure for ignorance.

oh and I am not a Christian.

[kecemplunglagi]

He was Howard's heir apparent, wasn't he?


"I think everyone should have some familiarity with the great texts that are at the core of our civilisation,"
Bwahahahahahaha!

[Ordie]

I agree with Mr. Abbott.

The Bible is an important part of Western Civilization and thinking. Sadly as generations become more secular, we tend to become illiterate in Biblical allegories, references and historical context.

Bible as history and impact should be taught as an elective within the context of humanities.

Proof texting and dismissing the Bible is wrong. However understanding the collections of books, chapters and message within the Bible should be better understood.

My advice, try reading it as historical liturature.

[kecemplunglagi]

Problem is, Ordie, Abbott asks for Bible class "so children have a fundamental understanding of Christianity". It won't be for historical reason, IMHO. If it is, then by all means, after all the Bible is one of the most printed book in the world.

[tercio67]

If you want allegories and educational tales, read the Grimm brothers 'Tales of Children and the Home'.

[2495]

the one where it says this:

"So The Lord God caused the United Kingdom to fall into a deep sleep; and while it was sleeping, He took one of the Kingdoms's landmasses and closed up the place with ireland. Then The Lord God made a continent from the landmass He had taken out of the Kingdom, and He brought it to the Kingdom. The Kingdom said, "This is now bone of my bones and land of my land; it shall be called 'Australia,' for it was taken out of the United Kingdom." For this reason a Kingdom will leave its continent aka old Europe and be united to his new continent, and they will become one Empire." (Genesis 2:21-24)


:D

Quoted for sheer awesome.

[Kit]

Problem is, Ordie, Abbott asks for Bible class "so children have a fundamental understanding of Christianity". It won't be for historical reason, IMHO. If it is, then by all means, after all the Bible is one of the most printed book in the world.

Understanding doesn't mean "belief". Too many people have wrong misconceptions of the Bible, including many Christians.

Plenty of our European cousins have been through mandatory Bible studies, and Europe is a far cry from a theocratic society.

[3rdMillhouse]

Yeah yeah, specially those parts that are full of incest, wars and ***. Bible rocks.

[Seek]

We didn't have to read the bible in school, but religion has been a subject. we learned fundamental stuff about christianity, judaism, and islam. I must admitt these things are general knowledge and should be taught at school. otherwise there will be no understanding about the current religious conflicts around the world.

[BMUS]

Understanding doesn't mean "belief". Too many people have wrong misconceptions of the Bible, including many Christians.

Plenty of our European cousins have been through mandatory Bible studies, and Europe is a far cry from a theocratic society.
With the Bible studies came the Koran, Torah and Hindu texts studies also.
And as far as I know 'we' over here didn't read the Bible when we were kids, but when we were around 17 y.o. as a part of religious studies.

But I dont know about other countries around the Mediterranean though.

[Noons86]

Understanding doesn't mean "belief". Too many people have wrong misconceptions of the Bible, including many Christians.



Well that's just the problem with teaching about religious texts in schools. It becomes a tug of war between agendas and perceptions of agendas. Teaching the Bible as fact will upset a lot of people, but so would teaching the Bible as literature, because many people don't want the Bible taught as anything other than the literal word of God. So I say public schools should lay off teaching religious texts.

If you want your kids to have a religious education, send them to a private school. I can think of several in my area that do a much better job than most of our public schools (unfortunately for fundamentalists, they're all Catholic). If you want your kids taught the Bible as fact without spending too much money on a private education, send them to Sunday school.

[DaGreatRV]

I think they'd be better of reading a book about christianity, like a text book in highschool, than a bible if you'd want to inform them about christianity. (the same way they do for all other major religions)
Anyway, christianity the core of his civilisation? Don't make me laugh.
How about:
The wealth of nations - Adam Smith
Relativity - Albert Einstein
The origin of species - Charles Darwin
The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl Popper
Principia Mathematica - Isaac Newton
On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres - Nicolaus Copernicus

All of which are unreadable for your average highschool kid. As is the bible ofcource.

No, I think schools schould focus more on math, language, history, geography, etc... Than something as esotheric as religion.

[hughdotoh]

I went to Catholic school and found the Bible interesting to read. Not just about Christianity, but also about Judaism. The Old Testament, after all, is the Jewish part of the Bible. I doubt that it made me a better Christian though. Reading it is far different from eventually practicing what is written in there.

So yeah, I read Marx and Mein Kampf too. Not that I would be practicing what is written in these. But the Bible has more than a fair share of lessons worth living.

Must children read the Bible? In the West, political correctness has prevented children from learning anything religious, but the same political correctness does not stop Muslim children from being taught what is not in the Koran. It seems to me that the only Bible lesson that the politically correct would want to teach their children, is to turn the other cheek.

[Sarig]

I think they'd be better of reading a book about christianity, like a text book in highschool, than a bible if you'd want to inform them about christianity. (the same way they do for all other major religions)
Anyway, christianity the core of his civilisation? Don't make me laugh.
How about:
The wealth of nations - Adam Smith
Relativity - Albert Einstein
The origin of species - Charles Darwin
The Logic of Scientific Discovery - Karl Popper
Principia Mathematica - Isaac Newton
On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres - Nicolaus Copernicus

All of which are unreadable for your average highschool kid. As is the bible ofcource.

No, I think schools schould focus more on math, language, history, geography, etc... Than something as esotheric as religion.

Don't forget ancient greek philosophy, which while it might seem odd today, it's pretty much the basis of everything that came after in the western world (including christianity). And also unreadable for most at high school level, yes :)

[Clockwinder]

I'm ashamed to say he's Australian! I'd have expected this from a US politician, but to have an Aussie say it, is humiliating.

[tyovan]

I think everyone should read the major religious texts of the world, in order to be an educated, well-rounded person in our increasingly globalized society. I've read the entire Bible (New & Old Testaments) and also the entire Quran.

However, I do not support forcing students to read them in a public, government-funded educational institution.

[OWG]

I'm not a particularly religious person and don't buy into some parts of the bible but I'll admit there are some pretty deep quotations and phrases in there that are really worth reading. Many don't even have a direct religious connotation when taken out of context.

Personally, I went to a Jesuit school where we had to study all the basic core religions. Theology class was basically a history class, but focusing on religion instead. I remember having books on not only Christianity, but Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism as well.

[Clockwinder]

Christian kids learn christian values and dogma at Sunday school or church or at home. The Bible has NO place in a public school. Religion has no place in a public school. Abbott is a ratbag who needs to pull his head in. Let kids learn REAL stuff in school - the science fiction of religion can be learned elsewhere.

[PeoplesPoster]

Christian kids learn christian values and dogma at Sunday school or church or at home. The Bible has NO place in a public school. Religion has no place in a public school. Abbott is a ratbag who needs to pull his head in. Let kids learn REAL stuff in school - the science fiction of religion can be learned elsewhere.

x2
Leave the bible where it belongs, in the church.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Hey Abbot.

No way get ****ed **** off

[Lector]

Making bible classes compulsory is kinda stupid, everyone has the right to choose.
Well, i don't go to church, but i have read the bible when i was a kid. Was quiet interesting tbh.
Most of epic quotes come from bible anyway. The Boondock Saints movie wouldn't be so epic without bible quotes.


"Whosoever shed man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God, made He man. Destroy all that which is evil. So that which is good may flourish. And I shall count thee among my favoured sheep. And you shall have the protection of all the angels in heaven."


"When I vest my flashing sword, and my hand takes hold in judgment, I will take vengeance upon mine enemies, and I will repay those who haze me. Oh Lord, raise me to Thy right hand and count me among Thy saints."



In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti





http://www.youtube.com/v/JKzM8xsQ5-U

Or Exorcist 3.


My name is Legion: for we are many

[Kilgor]

I'm ashamed to say he's Australian! I'd have expected this from a US politician, but to have an Aussie say it, is humiliating.

X2

Im a swinging voter but will never vote liberal again so long as long as that bible thumper is leader.

[TheKorean]

Bible is a good literature. If we force students to read Shakespeare might as well the Bible.

[Clockwinder]

Bible is a good literature. If we force students to read Shakespeare might as well the Bible.
Oh it is NOT! I guess we need a definition of 'good literature'. In my definition it's a collection of fictional short stories.

[Noons86]

Oh it is NOT! I guess we need a definition of 'good literature'. In my definition it's a collection of fictional short stories.


Well now we're just getting into opinions.

[Ordie]

x2
Leave the bible where it belongs, in the church.

The Bible along with every philosophies, religions, sciences and literature belongs to humankind and it should not be exempt nor banned.

[Ordie]

Oh it is NOT! I guess we need a definition of 'good literature'. In my definition it's a collection of fictional short stories.

Then why deny right for an individual teach fiction?

[wagon]

Tony Abbot is most likely just a seat warmer. He's always been ****e to silly ideas - I think he's been hit in the head too many times.

[Noons86]

The Bible along with every philosophies, religions, sciences and literature belongs to humankind and it should not be exempt nor banned.


The problem is that in the public school system, there are too many irreconcilable differences between competing interests. Separation of Church and State prevents it from being taught as fact, and there are too many people who think that is the only way it should be taught. Too many parents would complain if the Bible was taught as something to be "examined". That's why it shouldn't be taught in public schools.

Now, in universities, that's a completely different story.

[Ordie]

If the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon and Dianetics are in the public library, they should be at the public school's library as well.

[BMUS]

Then why deny right for an individual teach fiction?
If you want to teach fiction you do it at home. At school you learn science based on facts. If you want to study the Bible in school it's a-ok, but kids have no reason to study the Bible.

[Noons86]

If the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon and Dianetics are in the public library, they should be at the public school's library as well.

There's nothing wrong with having it in a library. There are just too many conflicting interests to have it as part of the curriculum.

[Ordie]

If you want to teach fiction you do it at home. At school you learn science based on facts. If you want to study the Bible in school it's a-ok, but kids have no reason to study the Bible.

So are you advocating that we should not teach the classics? liturature? philosophy? theories that are not based on fact? science fiction?

[Ordie]

There's nothing wrong with having it in a library. There are just too many conflicting interests to have it as part of the curriculum.

So how does one teach the European Counter Reformation without referencing the mass production the Bible in venacular languages?

How does one teach about the Tang Dynasty without referencing the impacts of Buddhism in China?

How does one teach about the great works of Michealangelo without referencing Bibilical themes and stories?

[BMUS]

So are you advocating that we should not teach the classics? liturature? philosophy? theories that are not based on fact? science fiction?
The schools can teach and help students study such things as literature and philosophy as long as it is built on facts. What is post-modern literature? What is it like? What is romantic nationalism literature? What's it like? Etc etc etc.
In that perspective, you might study the Bible. But I can't see younger kids able to analyse texts without being affected by it's content. The schools are not supposed to tell it's students over what kind a literature is great and which is not.

[Noons86]

So how does one teach the European Counter Reformation without referencing the mass production the Bible in venacular languages?

How does one teach about the Tang Dynasty without referencing the impacts of Buddhism in China?

How does one teach about the great works of Michealangelo without referencing Bibilical themes and stories?

Of course history and other classes will refer to religious texts and influences, as obviously without the Bible, Western Civilization would not be what it is today. But this particular Australian politician seems to want an entire class dedicated to teaching the Bible and maybe other religious texts. It's over that sort of class where there would be too many conflicting interests.

[Ordie]

The schools can teach and help students study such things as literature and philosophy as long as it is built on facts. .

The Centaur, the Medusa, the Titans are not actual creatures, therefore we should ban the Greek classics.

You might as well ban Harry Potter because its is not based on fact.

[Aor]

Having religious scriptures taught at school is something I am not particularly comfortable with. Religion follows a doctrine that is seldom a matter of debate and can never be scrutinised as a scientific truth. As such, even if it does promote certain ethics and codes of conduct that are needed I don't think it does in the best possible way. From my experience the best way to cultivate ethics or any notion is to prove your point through debate and exchange of views. In contrast to religion, ethics based on philosophy don't justify themselves on scripture or a divine authority, but make their argument through reason. Christianity, as any religion, has a philosophical bend, but it doesn't need to prove itself through reason. A true believer will accept the philosophy too, but how many times have we seen basic philosophies of Christianity being twisted to justify wars and sin, by proclaiming to the indoctrinated, blind to reason, masses, an absolute truth that none really studied or possessed? It is really weird that the early Christians were only baptised after they examined and accepted the truths of Christianity. So then, even though the basic characteristics of religion were found of course in Christianity, one had to undergo a journey of discovery sparked by his own needs of discovery and spiritual fulfilment. I fail to see how this can happen if one force feeds Christianity on children minds that have neither shown or expressed an interest in religion. At best this endeavour will create an one sided approach on religion with a semi-fanatical view. I myself had both Religion class and went to Sunday school. The first was just a constant source of boredom that barely scratched the surface of what I wanted to learn about Christianity. It was only in my teenage years, after I read the Bible and attended Sunday School under my own free will that I began to really study the scriptures and accept Christianity in my life.

[LaoSexMachine]

The Bible along with every philosophies, religions, sciences and literature belongs to humankind and it should not be exempt nor banned.

That's where Sunday school comes in. Who says banned? Would you teach English lit in a Math class?

[Ordie]

Having religious scriptures taught at school is something I am not particularly comfortable with. Religion follows a doctrine that is seldom a matter of debate and can never be scrutinised as a scientific truth. As such, even if it does promote certain ethics and codes of conduct that are needed I don't think it does in the best possible way. From my experience the best way to cultivate ethics or any notion is to prove your point through debate and exchange of views. In contrast to religion, ethics based on philosophy don't justify themselves on scripture or a divine authority, but make their argument through reason. Christianity, as any religion, has a philosophical bend, but it doesn't need to prove itself through reason. A true believer will accept the philosophy too, but how many times have we seen basic philosophies of Christianity being twisted to justify wars and sin, by proclaiming to the indoctrinated, blind to reason, masses, an absolute truth that none really studied or possessed? It is really weird that the early Christians were only baptised after they examined and accepted the truths of Christianity. So then, even though the basic characteristics of religion were found of course in Christianity, one had to undergo a journey of discovery sparked by his own needs of discovery and spiritual fulfilment. I fail to see how this can happen if one force feeds Christianity on children minds that have neither shown or expressed an interest in religion. At best this endeavour will create an one sided approach on religion with a semi-fanatical view. I myself had both Religion class and went to Sunday school. The first was just a constant source of boredom that barely scratched the surface of what I wanted to learn about Christianity. It was only in my teenage years, after I read the Bible and attended Sunday School under my own free will that I began to really study the scriptures and accept Christianity in my life.

So what if a kid asks whats the theological difference between Protestants and Catholics or Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy without referencing the Bible?

[Ordie]

Would you teach English lit in a Math class?

Yes.

Why not.

I'm a big proponent of interweaving different disciplines to the overall curriculum. It helps the students to connect the dot which is critical in todays high tech fast moving world.

Shakespere's sonnets, Japanese Haiku, music and arts have a mathematical element to it.

Why not teach the Koran? who's knows, a quote from the Koran may be beneficial to one's survival in the mid-east by connecting the dots.

[BMUS]

The Centaur, the Medusa, the Titans are not actual creatures, therefore we should ban the Greek classics.

You might as well ban Harry Potter because its is not based on fact.
I don't think you get me right... I never said we should ban the Bible, or the Greek classics for that matter.
I just said that the schools should not and are not supposed to teach the Bible, and especially not to kids. It can teach about it - when they're older. Just as they are not supposed to teach kids politics. But they can sure teach about it - when they're older.

And yeah. If you want your school to teach your kids the Harry Potter story be my guest. It ain't happening in my schools though.

[TheKorean]

Oh it is NOT! I guess we need a definition of 'good literature'. In my definition it's a collection of fictional short stories.

Either way its a good literature. Certainly helps kids learn some proper English.

[LaoSexMachine]

Yes.

Why not.

I'm a big proponent of interweaving different disciplines to the overall curriculum. It helps the students to connect the dot which is critical in todays high tech fast moving world.

Shakespere's sonnets, Japanese Haiku, music and arts have a mathematical element to it.

Funny thing is kids can barely handle their curriculum now and you want to throw them more shyt? How about trying to get students to at least know algebra and world history first. If you want that why not teach computer science and networking at an early age?

[Aor]

So what if a kid asks whats the theological difference between Protestants and Catholics or Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy without referencing the Bible?

Don't you think that if he reaches that question that child will have formed much more basic questions concerning religion? At that point that child will seek out the answers and will not need to have a mandatory class teach it.

[Ordie]

And yeah. If you want your school to teach your kids the Harry Potter story be my guest. It ain't happening in my schools though.

Harry Potter has done more to hook kids into reading since **** and Jane. The same is true with Percy Jackson books in introducing Greek Mythology to a new generation of kids today.

How can we expect much from our future leaders if we deny the teaching of political science from an early age?

[LaoSexMachine]

Yes.

Why not.

I'm a big proponent of interweaving different disciplines to the overall curriculum. It helps the students to connect the dot which is critical in todays high tech fast moving world.

Shakespere's sonnets, Japanese Haiku, music and arts have a mathematical element to it.

Why not teach the Koran? who's knows, a quote from the Koran may be beneficial to one's survival in the mid-east by connecting the dots.

By who's interpretations?

[Aor]

Ordie I think the question is how much can a child comprehend without being indoctrinated. I am all about comprehension, not indoctrination.

[Ordie]

Don't you think that if he reaches that question that child will have formed much more basic questions concerning religion? At that point that child will seek out the answers and will not need to have a mandatory class teach it.

To deny a child's hunger for information is just as worst to deny food to a hungry child.

[LaoSexMachine]

To deny a child's hunger for information is just as worst to deny food to a hungry child.

Sunday School. Parents job not the State's.,

[Ordie]

By who's interpretations?

The Muslim communities are traditional oral societies that thrive memorizing the Koran. If I were a soldier trying to navigate the cultural divide in a hostile environment, saying a Koranic quote in Arabic may open doors with a local imam or chief.

Who knows???

It may save someone's life.

[Aor]

To deny a child's hunger for information is just as worst to deny food to a hungry child.

Sunday school that isn't mandatory and will provide all the "food" the child needs. Read my first post on the thread again. I think we are on the same page.

[LaoSexMachine]

The Muslim communities are traditional oral societies that thrive memorizing the Koran. If I were a soldier trying to navigate the cultural divide in a hostile environment, saying a Koranic quote in Arabic may open doors with a local imam or chief.

Who knows???

It may save someone's life.

Well, that would be up to the military and they would teach you that in some sort of leadership school.

Dude, you're reaching.

[Ordie]

[QUOTE=Ezekiel25:17;4639951]Well, that would be up to the military and they would teach you that in some sort of leadership school.
[QUOTE]

For the military to teach the Koran would mean a breech of the separation of church and state.

[LaoSexMachine]

[QUOTE=Ezekiel25:17;4639951]Well, that would be up to the military and they would teach you that in some sort of leadership school.
[QUOTE]

For the military to teach the Koran would mean a breech of the separation of church and state.

And not the same in public school?

[BMUS]

Harry Potter has done more to hook kids into reading since **** and Jane. The same is true with Percy Jackson books in introducing Greek Mythology to a new generation of kids today.
Well thats great, but the books contain nothing of educational value to children except the ability to compare it to other literary works. So sure, the school may very well asign it's students to read a HP book. Still dosen't mean the book should be taught in school. What knowledge does it provide? None.


How can we expect much from our future leaders if we deny the teaching of political science from an early age?
Early political science isn't learnt at the bench, but on the school yard without the teachers influence.

[PeterRJG]

The Muslim communities are traditional oral societies that thrive memorizing the Koran. If I were a soldier trying to navigate the cultural divide in a hostile environment, saying a Koranic quote in Arabic may open doors with a local imam or chief.

Who knows???

It may save someone's life.

Long draws of the bow your speciality there in Group-Hug Land?

[BMUS]

Long draws of the bow your speciality there in Group-Hug Land?
I believe the person you direct your message to have served with the US navy a long time.

[Ordie]

[QUOTE=Ordie;4639958][QUOTE=Ezekiel25:17;4639951]Well, that would be up to the military and they would teach you that in some sort of leadership school.


And not the same in public school?

The fact of the matter is that to deny the role of religion is to deny our humanity. There is a great percentage of our world who are religious and have a robust belief system. To not understand religion or belief system, will only hinder our means of navigating the complexities of the modern world.

Especially a world where the scientific and technological divide is great and growing.

Including the role of warfare, where our easy use of technology and science is literally attacking traditional societies with robotic aircraft. Which only strenghtens their belief systems and religious rationale to hate us even more. And may have even more dire consequences.

[PeterRJG]

I believe the person you direct your message to have served with the US navy a long time.

Doesn't make his opinions sacrosanct. Especially about the opposition leader of my country who is a real numpty.

[Ordie]

Long draws of the bow your speciality there in Group-Hug Land?

Knowing a few quotations of Mao got me out of hot water in China once.

[Steelersfan413]

This can't possibly be worse than my debate teacher preaching us Christianity last year.

(I go to a public school BTW)

[Ordie]

This can't possibly be worse than my debate teacher preaching us Christianity last year.

(I go to a public school BTW)

Rule #1:

Never argue with a Jesuit. They are the Jedi masters of turing your own words against you in a debate.

[BMUS]

Doesn't make his opinions sacrosanct. Especially about the opposition leader of my country who is a real numpty.
Nope, but it does not qualify to being subjected to rudeness.

Shape up sir. p-)

[PeterRJG]

Tony Abbott is a former monk. His views on the Christian religion are well-known and generally disregarded by the secular population of Australia as being the opinions of one biased by his world-view. He is leading a political party that's in complete disarray and providing absolutely nil counter to the almost-unfettered nanny-statism of the Labor Party.

So, I don't take what Tony Abbott says seriously, and neither do most Australians. If he keeps this bleating irrelevance up, his party will be decimated at the next election, never to rise again as a power.

[LaoSexMachine]

[QUOTE=Ezekiel25:17;4639960][QUOTE=Ordie;4639958]

The fact of the matter is that to deny the role of religion is to deny our humanity. .

Religion is not a philosphy because philoshophy is the RATIONAL seeking of truth.

Religion is not rational. It's dogma and dogma is not philosophy which is a part of humanity. Dogma is a concept of black and white. Truth can't be found in it since it relies on faith alone.

[Ordie]

I believe the person you direct your message to have served with the US navy a long time.

I'm just another bloke.

veteran or otherwise.

[PeterRJG]

Nope, but it does not qualify to being subjected to rudeness.

Shape up sir. p-)

And who the fvck are you? I've debated with Ordie on these forums long before your ass showed up, so shove your hall monitor bs.

[PeterRJG]

Religion is not a philosphy because philoshophy is the RATIONAL seeking of truth.

Religion is not rational. It's dogma and dogma is not philosophy which is a part of humanity. Dogma is a concept of black and white and truth can't be found in it since it relies on faith alone.

Well said..

[Ordie]

[QUOTE=Ordie;4640006][QUOTE=Ezekiel25:17;4639960]

Religion is not a philosphy because philoshophy is the RATIONAL seeking of truth.

Religion is not rational. It's dogma and dogma is not philosophy which is a part of humanity. Dogma is a concept of black and white and truth can't be found in it since it relies on faith alone.

Then what about the works of Martin Luther, St. Augstine, Calvin, St. Thomas Aquaintas or Santa Theresa which has had a profound impact on western philosophy?

Or the Protestant Reformation and Counter Reformation which emancipated the common man in reaching thier full potential as individuals free from the yoke of fuedalism.

Without the Protestant reformation there would be no global capitalism.

[PeterRJG]

[QUOTE=Ezekiel25:17;4640026][QUOTE=Ordie;4640006]

Then what about the works of Martin Luther, St. Augstine, Calvin, St. Thomas Aquaintas or Santa Theresa which has had a profound impact on western philosophy?

Or the Protestant Reformation and Counter Reformation which emancipated the common man in reaching thier full potential as individuals free from the yoke of fuedalism.

Without the Protestant reformation there would be no global capitalism.

Ordie, between say 300AD and 1600AD, can you name one Western work of philosophy that wasn't religiously based? The overwhelming majority of these works were religious in nature. Why? Because the two were intertwined. It was believed (and still is in places) that all pure thought is divinely inspired. Until the advent of Humanism anyway.

[LaoSexMachine]

[QUOTE=Ezekiel25:17;4640026][QUOTE=Ordie;4640006]

Then what about the works of Martin Luther, St. Augstine, Calvin, St. Thomas Aquaintas or Santa Theresa which has had a profound impact on western philosophy?

Or the Protestant Reformation and Counter Reformation which emancipated the common man in reaching thier full potential as individuals free from the yoke of fuedalism.

Without the Protestant reformation there would be no global capitalism.

I'm going to take a giant leap since you like too yourself. How about what human greed plays into global capitalism.

[Noons86]

No one here is denying the impact of Christianity on our civilization. Nor is anyone saying that history or literature should be taught without any references to religious influences.

The point is that having a class devoted to religious texts would make parents flip, no matter how it was taught.

[BMUS]

And who the fvck are you? I've debated with Ordie on these forums long before your ass showed up, so shove your hall monitor bs.
Oh snap.

I then bid you good bye sir.

[Ordie]

[QUOTE=Ordie;4640041][QUOTE=Ezekiel25:17;4640026]

Ordie, between say 300AD and 1600AD, can you name one Western work of philosophy that wasn't religiously based? The overwhelming majority of these works were religious in nature. Why? Because the two were intertwined. It was believed (and still is in places) that all pure thought is divinely inspired. Until the advent of Humanism anyway.

It was largely due to the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the advent of the Dark Ages. Where the only source of learning was through the Church.

It wasn't until the rise of Islam where the Greek classics were ressurected by Islamic scholars that the expansion of knowledge began anew. Where Cordoba Spain was the center of learning in Western Europe.

It wasn't the until the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine) to the Turks when many of the Byzantine artisans, scholars, and architects left for Italy and triggered the Reniassance.

[PeterRJG]

No one here is denying the impact of Christianity on our civilization. Nor is anyone saying that history or literature should be taught without any references to religious influences.

The point is that having a class devoted to religious texts would make parents flip, no matter how it was taught.

Just as an aside, this is the first line of Australia's Constitution.


Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth under the Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and under the Constitution hereby established:

Note the bolded bit. Scripture (as it's called) is taught voluntarily in public schools in Australia. At my daughters' school, it's taught on a Thursday. You can opt of it, and my kids have.

In private schools, particularly those founded by religious orders, Marist Bros, Christian Bros, etc, it is an everyday part of the curriculum.

[PeterRJG]

Oh snap.

I then bid you good bye sir.

Ordie is capable of defending himself. Your intrusion and loving care for his sensibilities, while noble, was completely unwarranted. Carry on.

[PeterRJG]

[QUOTE=PeterRJG;4640049][QUOTE=Ordie;4640041]

It was largely due to the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the advent of the Dark Ages. Where the only source of learning was through the Church.


No arguments there.


It wasn't until the rise of Islam where the Greek classics were ressurected by Islamic scholars that the expansion of knowledge began anew. Where Cordoba Spain was the center of learning in Western Europe.


Not so much resurrected as kept alive. Not only that, many of the long-held cherished beliefs passed down by the Greeks, like the body being made up of four humours, geocentricism, etc, where discredited by men like Avicenna, Rhazes, Averhoes et al.


It wasn't the until the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine) to the Turks when many of the Byzantine artisans, scholars, and architects left for Italy and triggered the Reniassance.

The Church lost its grip around this time - you say it was because of 1453, others will argue it was due to Protestantism and Humanism. The gradual moving away from the theory that all creativity derives from God to where it derives from mankind.

[Noons86]

Just as an aside, this is the first line of Australia's Constitution.



Note the bolded bit. Scripture (as it's called) is taught voluntarily in public schools in Australia. At my daughters' school, it's taught on a Thursday. You can opt of it, and my kids have.

In private schools, particularly those founded by religious orders, Marist Bros, Christian Bros, etc, it is an everyday part of the curriculum.

Oh, well I'm American, so its different here.

I personally have nothing against teaching scripture, and it certainly enhances one's educational experience. But in the United States, there is a very large number of people who want scripture taught either as fact or not at all. So its best if the public schools stay out of that territory and let students learn about it in college.

[Ordie]

Oh, well I'm American, so its different here.

There is no mention of "God" in the US Constitution nor is our Head of State is the leader of the the Church of England.

[Dercius]

I agree with Mr. Abbott.

The Bible is an important part of Western Civilization and thinking. Sadly as generations become more secular, we tend to become illiterate in Biblical allegories, references and historical context.

Bible as history and impact should be taught as an elective within the context of humanities.

Proof texting and dismissing the Bible is wrong. However understanding the collections of books, chapters and message within the Bible should be better understood.

My advice, try reading it as historical liturature.

X2

Its impossible to fully understand why our civilization is the way it is without taking into account christian religion and the bible.
Have a look at it and you will understand why democracy as we understand it today was only able to grow as an idea and develop on western christian societies. Denying it as something important only makes people shouting against it look more dumb. Im not saying that you have to believe it, but you have to know what it is about.

[mechanical-octopi]

I think knowledge of Christianity is important, as with every other major religion and as stated before teaching about the impact of religious text on society and the world should be done. I went to a Catholic high school and religion class was mandatory for everyone regardless of belief or views oddly though we only ever touched a bible maybe once a year and we never learned about Christianities impact on the world instead it was pointless "how jesus makes me a better person" crap that does nothing on learning religion and just keeps ramming "god" into your head pointlessly. All learning of religion was done either on my own time or was a part of history classes. There are many reason as to why schools should make kids read the bible but indoctrinating belief is a poor reason. It's the reason behind championing learning religious text that makes it worth while or not.

[Creampuff]

OK. . . . . . . which version of the Bible?

A version that hasn't been gelded. But in saying that...


"but ultimately we consider it a private matter for parents and their children," he said.x2

[Clockwinder]

Religion and religious tracts and texts have no place in public schools. Demanding that children be taught and examined on the Bible as a dogmatic governmental fiat, is both anathema and an insult to society at large. Put religious instruction where it belongs - parochial schools, church, temple, mosque and HOME!

[UltimateHero]

Kids are already being forced to learn the peaceful nature of Islam so why not?

[Creampuff]

Simple!

The bible espouses Christianity/Jesus christ, which is not to be forced but accepted "free of will." Full stop.

[Clockwinder]

Simple!

The bible espouses Christianity/Jesus christ, which is not to be forced but accepted "free of will." Full stop.
You obviously aren't Catholic.:) :) Those nuns could make anyone do anything> But that's a whole other thread.

[IraGlacialis]

I wouldn't be against it. However, it would also have to include other religions as well: namely the Koran, Vedas, Tipitaka, and Four Books (Torah isn't mentioned due to the collection of books already in the Bible, and a "maybe" for the Talmud due to its focus more on protocol/law than philosophy). At least focus on all three Abrahamic (and their derivatives) and maybe the Zoroastrian faiths due to their impact on western civilization. A classical/Age of Enlightenment course in philosophy would be helpful as well is put in conjunction. Focus on the Indian and Chinese-based religions should be in a different course and are secondary when compared to the comparatively marginal impact they have had on western society.
However, such things, while nice to know, should not be mandatory.

OK. . . . . . . which version of the Bible?
Codex Sinaiticus would be a good place to start, then you can start teaching about different versions and how they were shaped by transitions into vernacular.

[Creampuff]

You obviously aren't Catholic.:) :) Those nuns could make anyone do anything> But that's a whole other thread.

You're telling me Clockwinder, am familiar with a woman who did not complete her vows to enter the sisterhood. Damn its hard to believe one so fine could remain single and untouched for so long, she married recently, damn fab fab fab. Again for another thread.:)

[the_Wicked]

By some of your logic, Mein Kempf should be mandatory reading in order to understand history better. Actually, that's not really a bad idea...

[Curtis E. Bear]

Kids are already being forced to learn the peaceful nature of Islam so why not?

Who is being FORCED to learn about Islam? No one in Australia is (which is what the article is about) so either stay on topic or fcuk off.

[deathil93]

Well, I dunno what about you chaps, but I learned Bible at school, probably cuz I'm from Israel. In any case, it was a pain in the arse as they made us do a so called final exam (dunno how you guys call it) and we had to memorize tons upon tons of stupid chapters. Don't get me wrong, actually it was learning it because our teacher looked and acted like she was always high...

Anywho, my point is that it should be by choice, if you want to learn it than go learn it but if you don't you shouldn't be compulsed in doing so.

[Aor]

Codex Sinaiticus would be a good place to start, then you can start teaching about different versions and how they were shaped by transitions into vernacular.

Bingo! If you really want to study something go to the less altered source. My advise would be learn Ancient Greek and read the original. I can't begin to start counting how many deviations from the original most versions have. If you really want to cultivate ethics in a society of multiple religions, creeds and dogmas leave religion out of the picture. It is most likely to offend or confuse people of different religions than the one promoted. Teach philosophy instead. Plato and the other Classics are allowed even in Islamic countries from what I know.

[GREENMILITIA]

DARWIN and DAWKINS rulezs!!!

hoooaaah!!!

[Cobber15-08]

Does it say anywhere that this political dimwit is a very, very right wing Christian who has a mouth that often trips over itself when it comes to Christianity.

IMHO, Leave such activities to the elective subjects, like religious studies that can cover the main aspects of all the main religions. This may help people understand that most religious people have a common ancestry especially when it comes to single god religions.
Also this way leaves it open for people who don't want to know this tio study something else.

Alternatively the students can go to a religious school of their own choice.

[PeterRJG]

Does it say anywhere that this political dimwit is a very, very right wing Christian who has a mouth that often trips over itself when it comes to Christianity.



Not in this article, but that's precisely what Abbott is.