China's role at Copenhagen- Deliberate Sabotage

[Alfacentori]

Eyewitness: How China sabotaged climate talks


Related Story: India, China cooperated to torpedo climate deal (http://www.militaryphotos.net/news/stories/2009/12/23/2779003.htm)
Related Story: Future not for sale: climate deal rejected (http://www.militaryphotos.net/news/stories/2009/12/19/2776604.htm)
Related Story: Britain blames China for Copenhagen 'farce' (http://www.militaryphotos.net/news/stories/2009/12/22/2778031.htm)
Related Story: Wong satisfied with India's climate position (http://www.militaryphotos.net/news/stories/2009/12/23/2779608.htm)
Related Link: Read Mark Lynas' article on Copenhagen (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/22/copenhagen-climate-change-mark-lynas)


A writer and environmental activist who was present at the final Copenhagen climate talks says China sabotaged the deal and ensured Barack Obama would shoulder the blame.
While China's Premier Wen Jiabao insisted his government had played an "important and constructive" role, the talks in the Danish capital ended with a political accord rather than a binding agreement.
Mark Lynas, who was attached to the Maldives delegation, described what he saw at the talks as "profoundly shocking".
"I am certain that had the Chinese not been in the room, we would have left Copenhagen with a deal that had environmentalists popping champagne corks in every corner of the world," he wrote in the The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/22/copenhagen-climate-change-mark-lynas).
"The truth is this: China wrecked the talks, intentionally humiliated Barack Obama, and insisted on an awful 'deal' so Western leaders would walk away carrying the blame.
He says Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and other Western leaders were visibly upset when China started "removing all the numbers that mattered" in the final talks, including emissions cuts by developed countries of 80 per cent by 2050.
"'Why can't we even mention our own targets?' demanded a furious [German Premier] Angela Merkel.
"Australia's prime minister, Kevin Rudd, was annoyed enough to bang his microphone. Brazil's representative too pointed out the illogicality of China's position. Why should rich countries not announce even this unilateral cut?
"The Chinese delegate said no, and I watched, aghast, as Merkel threw up her hands in despair and conceded the point. Now we know why - because China bet, correctly, that Obama would get the blame for the Copenhagen accord's lack of ambition.
"But I saw Obama fighting desperately to salvage a deal, and the Chinese delegate saying "no", over and over again."
Lynas says the 2020 peaking year was then "replaced by woolly language" and the global 50 per cent cuts by 2050 were also removed.
"No-one else, perhaps with the exceptions of India and Saudi Arabia, wanted this to happen," Lynas said.

'Took the bait'


Lynas fears "the truth about what actually happened is in danger of being lost amid the spin and inevitable mutual recriminations".
"China's strategy was simple: block the open negotiations for two weeks, and then ensure that the closed-door deal made it look as if the west had failed the world's poor once again. And sure enough, the aid agencies, civil society movements and environmental groups all took the bait," he said.
"The failure was 'the inevitable result of rich countries refusing adequately and fairly to shoulder their overwhelming responsibility', said Christian Aid. 'Rich countries have bullied developing nations,' fumed Friends of the Earth International.
"All very predictable, but the complete opposite of the truth."
He is dismissive of the role played by Sudanese delegate Lumumba Di-Aping, who negotiated on behalf of China and developing countries, accusing Sudan of behaving as China's puppet and helping to create the "perfect stitch-up".
Lynas also said China carried out a clear diplomatic snub at the talks.
"The Chinese premier, Wen Jinbao, did not deign to attend the meetings personally, instead sending a second-tier official in the country's foreign ministry to sit opposite Obama himself," he said.
"The diplomatic snub was obvious and brutal, as was the practical implication: several times during the session, the world's most powerful heads of state were forced to wait around as the Chinese delegate went off to make telephone calls to his 'superiors'."

India's stance


India has already confirmed (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/23/2779003.htm) it worked with China and other emerging nations to ensure there were no legally binding targets at the talks.
India's Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh earlier faced parliament for the first time since the UN talks, saying the nation had "come out quite well in Copenhagen".
"We can be satisfied that we were able to get our way on this issue," declared Mr Ramesh, who has consistently said India would be one of the countries hardest hit by climate change.
He said India, China, South Africa and Brazil had emerged as a powerful force and said the group had protected its right to continued economic growth.
Mr Ramesh said India would continue to work with its allies "to ensure that the interests of developing countries and India in particular are protected in the course of negotiations in 2010 and beyond".

Britain's blame


Britain has also said the meeting was lurched into farce and pointed the finger of blame at Beijing.
While British Prime Minister Gordon Brown refrained from naming countries, his climate change minister Ed Miliband said China had led a group of countries that "hijacked" the negotiations which had at times presented "a farcical picture to the public".
"We did not get an agreement on 50 per cent reductions in global emissions by 2050 or on 80 per cent reductions by developed countries," he wrote in The Guardian.
"Both were vetoed by China, despite the support of a coalition of developed and the vast majority of developing countries."
China, the world's top polluter, doggedly resisted pressure for outside scrutiny of its emissions.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/23/2779498.htm

I know this has been discussed but I thought this was an interesting read.

Alfa

[2495]

Its simple. Russia found the UK was using false data that was in many eyes deliberatly falsified to push through a world wide 'Green Government'.


Climate change is BS pure and simple - a fear tool to herd the masses. By all means protect the planet, keep it as clean and well kept as possible and curb pollution, but Al Gore et al stand to make billions from the carbon credit trading scheme whilst we the people get taxed to death for it.

Well done China / Russia for exposing their hypocritical lies.

[Nightsky]

I for one can understand their stance - we (Europe and North America and Australia) have pr5oduced massive emissions in order to reach our current wealth.

So basically we can hardly say "we can, but times have changed and you cannot". The compensation fund looks not sufficient and if I was an emerging economy, I wouldn't want to choke my economy and keep the distance to the wealthy.

And, let's face it ... our economy is based a lot less on production by now. We have outsourced the work bench to China, India or Indonesia and are producing wealth by banking and service businesses.

So well ... I for my part think, that's okay ...

[Jaeger07]

I for one can understand their stance - we (Europe and North America and Australia) have pr5oduced massive emissions in order to reach our current wealth.

So basically we can hardly say "we can, but times have changed and you cannot". The compensation fund looks not sufficient and if I was an emerging economy, I wouldn't want to choke my economy and keep the distance to the wealthy.

And, let's face it ... our economy is based a lot less on production by now. We have outsourced the work bench to China, India or Indonesia and are producing wealth by banking and service businesses.

So well ... I for my part think, that's okay ...

Well, to our defence: When we did most of our poluting nobody knew it would have negative consequenses (or atleast not like this). Now that we have found out how damaging carbon emition can be, things have changed. China, India and Africa can't just say that because we (the western world) have poluted in the past its A-OK for them to polute just as mutch in the future.

We all have to cut the CO2 emissions. Not just the G30-something countries.


On the other hand it's no way that the Chinese are going to do much. Banning coal would make a large majority of the Chinese population freeze to death in the winter (coal is the only affordable source of heating there is atm).

IMO the only thing that can save us from this pile of scheiz we have gotten our self into is new clean technology. Instead of using billions on redestributing wealth and hampering our industry we should put it all into next-gen energy production research.

My 2c...

[KoTeMoRe]

Well, to our defence: When we did most of our poluting nobody knew it would have negative consequenses (or atleast not like this). Now that we have found out how damaging carbon emition can be, things have changed. China, India and Africa can't just say that because we (the western world) have poluted in the past its A-OK for them to polute just as mutch in the future.

We all have to cut the CO2 emissions. Not just the G30-something countries.


On the other hand it's no way that the Chinese are going to do much. Banning coal would make a large majority of the Chinese population freeze to death in the winter (coal is the only affordable source of heating there is atm).

IMO the only thing that can save us from this pile of scheiz we have gotten our self into is new clean technology. Instead of using billions on redestributing wealth and hampering our industry we should put it all into next-gen energy production research.

My 2c...


Ehem...when "we" did it, we knew perfectly that the rise in output was affecting the people first...the environement was a combo bonus.

I don't need to point out to countless inquiries all along the second half of the 19th century that showed how severe the pollution was (Smog/salinization comes to mind). The only thing "we" might have ignored is the "global" impact of our pollution.

Now the problem is not who to blame, but what to blame. As said above, if these countries stop being our quick snap production complexes we'll have to figure out another way to keep the prices down.

[Solvent]

Looks like we got a couple of good thinkers here. Bravo to you guys.

[Scarren]

Looks like we got a couple of good thinkers here. Bravo to you guys.


Maybe a customs tariffs should be imposed on those countries who doesn't want to commit to internationals CO2 emissions agreement.


I think that, The EU will, at some point force china and india to comply to international treatys by using the custom system...

[Solvent]

Maybe a customs tariffs should be imposed on those countries who doesn't want to commit to internationals CO2 emissions agreement.


I think that, The EU will, at some point force china and india to comply to international treatys by using the custom system...

So go ahead to isolate yourself, let's see who will gain in the end.

And just a reminder to you, EU is not the whole world.

[Nightsky]

Maybe a customs tariffs should be imposed on those countries who doesn't want to commit to internationals CO2 emissions agreement.

That's a tough one, if you argue for free trade on the other side and try to eliminate customs via WTO negotiations.

And if you accept carbon emissions as a cause, sooner or later someone will rise tarriffs on whal fishing countries, on countries not building with concrete, on countries which do not protect hawks .... well, you get where I'm going.

To be honest, I am no WTO friend and don't think free trade is the solution to every problem on the globe, so as far as I care, scrap WTO and GATT. However, if you favour free trade, imposing tarriffs on emissions might be the wrong way to go.

[Zos]

* Climate change data did not take into account the effect of the Sun on our planets weather.
* Russian hackers reveal climate data pushed by the UN as totally fraudulent.
* 500 000 000 people expected to die of starvation within the first several years of bringing in cap & trade.
* Rothschild International & Occidental Petroleum (Al Gore) the main agents for trading the new carbon DERIVATIVES.

So to summarize, the richest people on the planet (Bankers) get to make Trillions of dollars doing nothing but shuffling paper carbon derivatives around in circles for a problem that doesn't exist costing every one on the planet a lot more for every basic item, killing off all manufacturing in the West and 500 000 000 get to die a long painful death of starvation.

Brilliant!

Really - can people be that stupid to actually want this?


And, let's face it ... our economy is based a lot less on production by now. We have outsourced the work bench to China, India or Indonesia and are producing wealth by banking and service businesses.

So well ... I for my part think, that's okay ... Clearly we do, mate if you think a nation can survive with no primary industry and rely on making cups of tea for tourists and financial mockery (shuffling a whole heap of things that don't exist around in circles and printing money out of nothing - think the derivatives thing that just happened in the states) then I wish you the best of luck because you are going to need it.

If you think placing your future in the hands of international bankers (the greediest most selfish and ruthless people on the planet) is going to save you (ask the Ethiopians who lost 2.5 million people to starvation after the IMF jacked its interest rates up several hundred percent in 1982) then mate - I hope you don't starve to death in too painful a way.

Can people be this stupid?

[Solvent]

* Climate change data did not take into account the effect of the Sun on our planets weather.
* Russian hackers reveal climate data pushed by the UN as totally fraudulent.
* 500 000 000 people expected to die of starvation within the first several years of bringing in cap & trade.
* Rothschild International & Occidental Petroleum (Al Gore) the main agents for trading the new carbon DERIVATIVES.

So to summarize, the richest people on the planet (Bankers) get to make Trillions of dollars doing nothing but shuffling paper carbon derivatives around in circles for a problem that doesn't exist costing every one on the planet a lot more for every basic item, killing off all manufacturing in the West and 500 000 000 get to die a long painful death of starvation.

Brilliant!

Really - can people be that stupid to actually want this?

Clearly we do, mate if you think a nation can survive with no primary industry and rely on making cups of tea for tourists and financial mockery (shuffling a whole heap of things that don't exist around in circles and printing money out of nothing - think the derivatives thing that just happened in the states) then I wish you the best of luck because you are going to need it.

If you think placing your future in the hands of international bankers (the greediest most selfish and ruthless people on the planet) is going to save you (ask the Ethiopians who lost 2.5 million people to starvation after the IMF jacked its interest rates up several hundred percent in 1982) then mate - I hope you don't starve to death in too painful a way.

Can people be this stupid?

Yes, that's some reasonable talk.

[Scarren]

So go ahead to isolate yourself, let's see who will gain in the end.

And just a reminder to you, EU is not the whole world.


No EU is not the whole world but the EU has a lot of companys in those
too countries.

In the past there has been imposed tariffs on Steel from china and i
also believe at some point there was one on Shoes because of unjust competition..Same could be said of a CO2 emission dodger...

I am not sure about the US but in the EU a green profile is very important
to companys..

[Solvent]

No EU is not the whole world but the EU has a lot of companys in those
too countries.

In the past there has been imposed tariffs on Steel from china and i
also believe at some point there was one on Shoes because of unjust competition..Same could be said of a CO2 emission dodger...

I am not sure about the US but in the EU a green profile is very important
to companys..

So ask your companies go back to EU, why bother to open branches in China and India, since they will be labeled as helper of pollution anyways.

We are not only producing steel and shoes, you know. If you guys want to deal with the issue like this, you get long way to go and be prepared for fight back. Besides, ourselves are the biggest consumer for steel.

Sure, going green is good. Salute you, the great Hulk.

[hskywalker]

No EU is not the whole world but the EU has a lot of companys in those
too countries.

In the past there has been imposed tariffs on Steel from china and i
also believe at some point there was one on Shoes because of unjust competition..Same could be said of a CO2 emission dodger...

I am not sure about the US but in the EU a green profile is very important
to companys..

It's a matter of time when China and india combined become more important than EU. :) And it's easier to coordinate two countries' diplomacy than some 20 countries.

And here is a joke




The Fox Who Had Lost His Tail
By charlesrowley







Rate This

http://pixel.quantserve.com/pixel/p-ab3gTb8xb3dLg.gif

A fox, caught in a trap, escaped by tearing off his bushy tail.
After that, the other animals mocked him, making him feel so ashamed that his life was a burden to him. He therefore worked out a plan to make all the other foxes the same as him, so that in their common loss he might better conceal his own deprivation.
He called a meeting of foxes. A good many came to it, and he gave a speech, advising them all to cut off their tails. He said that they would not only look much better without them, but that they would get rid of the weight of the brush, which was a very great inconvenience.
But one of them interrupted his speech.
“If you had not lost your own tail, my friend,” that fox said, “you would not be giving us this advice.”
Aesop 6th century BC
Let us hope that the alpha-male US fox, at the forthcoming meeting of all the foxes in Copenhagen in December 2009, remembers this fable, and understands its meaning, when listening to the pleas of all those foxes from Continental Europe who have already cut off their own tails, and now beg those that are yet not disfigured to mutilate themselves likewise.
If the big US fox is insufficiently smart to heed the fable, one can rest assured that the smarter foxes from India and the People’s Republic of China will prove to be adept at retaining their brushes so that they can mock and humiliate the now incredibly shrinking, debrushed US fox.

[Scarren]

So ask your companies go back to EU, why bother to open branches in China and India, since they will be labeled as helper of pollution anyways.

We are not only producing steel and shoes, you know. If you guys want to deal with the issue like this, you get long way to go and be prepared for fight back. Besides, ourselves are the biggest consumer for steel.

Sure, going green is good. Salute you, the great Hulk.


I was having a philosophical debate over the issue you a clearly not..:|

I dont think that the world could do without China or India but i also
think that those counties need the West just as much as the West
needs them, so is futile not to take the issue serious..

[Solvent]

I was having a philosophical debate over the issue you a clearly not..:|

I dont think that the world could do without China or India but i also
think that those counties need the West just as much as the West
needs them, so is futile not to take the issue serious..

So, you get to decide who is the winner of the debate? From my side, I say you are making no sense.

If we are equally important according to you, quit behaving like tough overload.

Did you just say if we don't listen, you will tax us to death?
Tough guy is easy to play, but the consequence is hard to digest.

[Scarren]

So, you get to decide who is the winner of the debate? From my side, I say you are making no sense.

If we are equally important according to you, quit behaving like tough overload.

Did you just say if we don't listen, you will tax us to death?
Tough guy is easy to play, but the consequence is hard to digest.


What do you do in your part off the world if someone doesn't want to
come to the negotiation table..

[gazell]

A few things here:

- blaming China, propaganda, the US is just as much responsible; hence I posted earlier, all this farce was not needed, nothing would have happened anyway, as Obama did not have any rights from Congress

- about the first 7 polluters make over 50% of pollution, if they do not do something about it, we are all focked

- I do not know really, why we so much need these disposable (AFTER A DAY) lighters and all other rubbishy products that we are inundated with, they are just crap, quite simply

- I do not know really, why China and other developing countries fail to understand, that they are used for moving pollution into their country for other's financial gains

- 'Climate change data did not take into account the effect of the Sun on our planets weather'

You pull this from what ar$e?

[JBH22]

i fail to see why people from INDIA and CHINA are not free to aspire to have a western lifestyle (cars,big house) why the west doesn't show some leadership try and reduce your carbon emissions drastically.
To say INDIA is polluting due to its increase economic activity is a complete falsacy the Indian economy receives a boost from its service sector not from manufacturing.
EU practice what you preach try to prevent POLAND from using coal to produce more electricity then will voluntarily follow suit..

[Ordie]

Looks like we got a couple of good thinkers here. Bravo to you guys.

A Pyrrhic victory.

In the end, China will face its own domestic crisis of environmental degredation and lack of clean water.

[Solvent]

What do you do in your part off the world if someone doesn't want to
come to the negotiation table..

That's some cool-headed talk.

Open big month to tax other people doesn't take you anywhere.

[Ordie]

i fail to see why people from INDIA and CHINA are not free to aspire to have a western lifestyle (cars,big house) why the west doesn't show some leadership try and reduce your carbon emissions drastically.
To say INDIA is polluting due to its increase economic activity is a complete falsacy the Indian economy receives a boost from its service sector not from manufacturing.
EU practice what you preach try to prevent POLAND from using coal to produce more electricity then will voluntarily follow suit..

I say go ahead.

Sooner or later your country will realize it is not sustainable in the long term and may bring unintended consequences.

[hskywalker]

I do not know really, why China and other developing countries fail to understand, that they are used for moving pollution into their country for other's financial gains

It's a temperary process. As I stated before, China used to cut down forest and export lumber, now it keeps forest and imports lumber.

It's like catching a bus called modernization, the earlier you get on, the better seat you have. Those left behind gets screwed.

[Solvent]

A Pyrrhic victory.

In the end, China will face its own domestic crisis of environmental degredation and lack of clean water.

We are aware of that. That's why we are building so many massive wind, solar and hydra plants to generate clean energy.

Rome was not built in one day.

[Ordie]

It's a temperary process. As I stated before, China used to cut down forest and export lumber, now it keeps forest and imports lumber.

Where is the lumber coming from?

[Ordie]

We are aware of that. That's why we are building so many massive wind, solar and hydra plants to generate clean energy.

Rome was not built in one day.

I'm glad to hear.

The sooner the better.

[JBH22]

I say go ahead.

Sooner or later your country will realize it is not sustainable in the long term and may bring unintended consequences.

so will face the consequences which we did not create....
for a long time US did not accept the conditions of Kyoto protocol suddenly OBAMA steps in changes his mind and we must follow suit...:cantbeli:
what INDIA and CHINA said that the basis of all cardon reductions target should be made on the basis of the Kyoto protocol..

in INDIA only 20% of the population do the 80% pollution..
How are you going to tell people who don't pollute to make more efforts??

Btw did the average US citizen took steps to reduce their carbon emissions??

[Solvent]

A few things here:

- blaming China, propaganda, the US is just as much responsible; hence I posted earlier, all this farce was not needed, nothing would have happened anyway, as Obama did not have any rights from Congress

- about the first 7 polluters make over 50% of pollution, if they do not do something about it, we are all focked

- I do not know really, why we so much need these disposable (AFTER A DAY) lighters and all other rubbishy products that we are inundated with, they are just crap, quite simply

- I do not know really, why China and other developing countries fail to understand, that they are used for moving pollution into their country for other's financial gains

- 'Climate change data did not take into account the effect of the Sun on our planets weather'

You pull this from what ar$e?

It's not we don't understand. Developing countries just have very few choices to support themselves.

[Solvent]

I'm glad to hear.

The sooner the better.

Let see what's gonna happen after 5 years.

[Jurinko]

Now that we have found out how damaging carbon emition can be, things have changed.

Please tell me what we have found out.

For your information, all that "green" color in the nature is caused by chlorophyll dye, which is composed of 75% carbon. All that carbon comes from.. atmospheric CO2. CO2 is a fertilizer, without which no plants could live. It is as equally important as water vapor or oxygen. And whether we have 280 ppm, 388 ppm or prehistorical 6000 ppm it does not matter at all - the more, the better for biosphere. Even after using all fossil fuels we will not get over 600 or 800 ppm - still less than what green housers keep inside for optimum plant growth.

And if you are still afraid of global warming, please explain the role of CO2 in heating the US October climate during last hundred years.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/get-file.php?report=national&image=timeseries02&byear=2009&bmonth=10&year=2009&month=10&ext=gif&id=110-00

[Scarren]

That's some cool-headed talk.

Open big month to tax other people doesn't take you anywhere.


Diplomacy has many levels...

[Ordie]

so will face the consequences which we did not create....
for a long time US did not accept the conditions of Kyoto protocol suddenly OBAMA steps in changes his mind and we must follow suit...:cantbeli:
what INDIA and CHINA said that the basis of all cardon reductions target should be made on the basis of the Kyoto protocol..

in INDIA only 20% of the population do the 80% pollution..
How are you going to tell people who don't pollute to make more efforts??

Btw did the average US citizen took steps to reduce their carbon emissions??

Even though Kyoto was not ratified by the US Federal government. Individial US States and Municipalities have taken the initiative to follow the Kyoto Protocols anyway.

This is especially true with California in setting the most strict environmental standards and specifications for products and energy production.

Right now California (pop. 36 million) and its municipalities are implementing climate change action plans and policies. Regardless of whatever happens in Copenhagen and the rest of the world.

It would be akin to the Indian State of Uttar Pradesh (pop. 190 million) saying that we will follow stricter guidelines than what was agreed upon by the Indian Government in Copenhagen.

[gazell]

It's not we don't understand. Developing countries just has very few choices to support themselves.

I know, however, killing yourselves does not seem a good choice. I wish good luck though. And hopefully, a successful change of directives before it's focking late for us all. Some of us are actually wondering, that it is already too late.


'It's like catching a bus called modernization, the earlier you get on, the better seat you have. Those left behind gets screwed.'

Sorry, we seem to be ahead of the bus 'modernization', more like, back to basics is the train now. It all but failed us. I hope, we are over that shyte.

[JBH22]

Even though Kyoto was not ratified by the US Federal government. Individial US States and Municipalities have taken the initiative to follow the Kyoto Protocols anyway.

This is especially true with California in setting the most strict environmental standards and specifications for products and energy production.

Right now California (pop. 36 million) and its municipalities are implementing climate change action plans and policies. Regardless of whatever happens in Copenhagen and the rest of the world.

It would be akin to the Indian State of Uttar Pradesh (pop. 190 million) saying that we will follow stricter guidelines than what was agreed upon by the Indian Government in Copenhagen.


California is not the whole USA,my problem is that why after the WEST enjoyed an exuberant lifestyle this is now restricted to emerging countries population.We also are human beings who wants to own a car,big house etcc.

I'm repeating this 20% of india's population account for 80% of its carbon emissions you can't tell the remaining 80% who don't pollute to make more efforts.

Many western car manufacturers are setting production plants in INDIA and CHINA so what will they do with these cars,AIRBUS set up a production facility in CHINA so do you think they will not make the planes?

[Ordie]

I know, however, killing yourselves does not seem a good choice. I wish good luck though. And hopefully, a successful change of directives before it's focking late for us all. Some of us are actually wondering, that it is already too late.


'It's like catching a bus called modernization, the earlier you get on, the better seat you have. Those left behind gets screwed.'

Sorry, we seem to be ahead of the bus 'modernization', more like, back to basics is the train now. It all but failed us. I hope, we are over that shyte.

Developing countries are like teenagers, they want to be cool and smoke cigarettes.

If you tell them you can't have them because of the health risks. They will whine and smoke anyway.

If you tell them, go ahead, be cool and smoke as much as you want, sooner or later they will realize they made a bad choice. Only then they will be motivated and seek help from others.

[pg_ord]

I say go ahead.

Sooner or later your country will realize it is not sustainable in the long term and may bring unintended consequences.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cqmFym_E3o

[Solvent]

Diplomacy has many levels...

Threat certainly is not smart move. Especially, when you are not charming and powerful anymore.

[JBH22]

Threat certainly is not smart move. Especially, when you are not charming and powerful anymore.

*2 that's why the negotiations fail,btw i find this shameful that many are trying to threaten the INDIA,CHINA with duties on their products if they don't know well this work both ways the imposition of tariffs and duties.

[Solvent]

I know, however, killing yourselves does not seem a good choice. I wish good luck though. And hopefully, a successful change of directives before it's focking late for us all. Some of us are actually wondering, that it is already too late.


'It's like catching a bus called modernization, the earlier you get on, the better seat you have. Those left behind gets screwed.'

Sorry, we seem to be ahead of the bus 'modernization', more like, back to basics is the train now. It all but failed us. I hope, we are over that shyte.

We are not killing ourselves. The thing you don't understand is only growth can solve the problem for developing countries. Otherwise, they will be stuck in poverty forever.

[Ordie]

California is not the whole USA

You are correct, however, California in being the most populated state in California has influence over the rest of the country.

Most specifically in auto emission standards. If California requires a stricter emissions standards, all auto manufactuers (domestic and international) will build all of its cars for the US market to California standards. Thus benefitting the rest of the country.

Same will be true with new California TV energy standards. TV manufactuers in China will re-tool its factory to meet California standards and export them anywhere.

[Scarren]

Threat certainly is not smart move. Especially, when you are not charming and powerful anymore.


I dont get you, I thought of it as a hypothetical way to get China and India back to the negotiation table and FYI we dont se us as overlords
and powerful we are concerned about the environment and we know that
we cant do it alone...

[JBH22]

You are correct, however, California in being the most populated state in California has influence over the rest of the country.

Most specifically in auto emission standards. If California requires a stricter emissions standards, all auto manufactuers (domestic and international) will build all of its cars for the US market to California standards. Thus benefitting the rest of the country.

Same will be true with new California TV energy standards. TV manufactuers in China will re-tool its factory to meet California standards and export them anywhere.

you are just talking about california in this respect even DELHI is trying to achieve an eco-friendly city.
The thing is you don't understand unless something radical change in technoly comes in ,People still want to own a car and no govt will have the guts to prevent them from doing that.
NO govt have the guts to tell their citizen the WEST polluted and caused this problem but now we have to make an effort to save the world otherwise we'll be gone.

[Ordie]

We are not killing ourselves. The thing you don't understand is only growth can solve the problem for developing countries. Otherwise, they will be stuck in poverty forever.

Solvet is right.

From my visit to China earlier in the year, they are madly building and upgrading its entire transportation network. Most specifically in high speed rail and urban subways. China knows it does not have the highway capacity for the masses to own individual cars. You cant get a seat on the Beijing subway and express buses to the outer neighborhoods are packed to the gills.

The major problem in China are rising tensions between the rural and urban sectors. Most specifically in areas of economic development and negative environmental externalities from coal mining and water pollution.

[Ordie]

you are just talking about california in this respect even DELHI is trying to achieve an eco-friendly city.
The thing is you don't understand unless something radical change in technoly comes in ,People still want to own a car and no govt will have the guts to prevent them from doing that.
NO govt have the guts to tell their citizen the WEST polluted and caused this problem but now we have to make an effort to save the world otherwise we'll be gone.

I'm not against Indian people owning cars.

I'm in favor of the Indian government to take farm lands and urban devleopment in order to build freeways and suburbs.

Do you think this is possible in India?

[JBH22]

I'm not against Indian people owning cars.

I'm in favor of the Indian government to take farm lands and urban devleopment in order to build freeways and suburbs.

Do you think this is possible in India?

anything is possible but not at the expense of INDIA's interest (economic).

[Ordie]

anything is possible but not at the expense of INDIA's interest (economic).

For an Indian you're an optimist.

In the US, anything that requires the taking of private property for the public good is met with political resistance.

[Solvent]

I dont get you, I thought of it as a hypothetical way to get China and India back to the negotiation table and FYI we dont se us as overlords
and powerful we are concerned about the environment and we know that
we cant do it alone...

I just want to let you know that we eat soft, not hard. Using western way to say is we don't like to take a sh!t from outsiders.

Play hard ball only keep us away from the table.

[Solvent]

Solvet is right.

From my visit to China earlier in the year, they are madly building and upgrading its entire transportation network. Most specifically in high speed rail and urban subways. China knows it does not have the highway capacity for the masses to own individual cars. You cant get a seat on the Beijing subway and express buses to the outer neighborhoods are packed to the gills.

The major problem in China are rising tensions between the rural and urban sectors. Most specifically in areas of economic development and negative environmental externalities from coal mining and water pollution.

I took the high speed train a month ago. It was very impressive, fast and quiet.And it's just the beginning. And the train already can compete with airplanes. It's a good way to save energy.

[Ordie]

I took the high speed train a month ago. It was very impressive, fast and quiet.And it's just the beginning. And the train already can compete with airplanes. It's a good way to save energy.

Does it dissuade you from owning a car?

[Solvent]

Does it dissuade you from owning a car?

I already own a car. But the train certainly dissuade me from long distance driving.

[brainplay]

First line should have sent up red flags for anyone who read it. The idea that China and India wouldn't do their best to come out on top of this being surprising still blows my mind. India while still being boosted by service industry tech is till developing its manufacturing to compete with China who is the manufacturing king right now. In their shoes who wouldn't try to minimize as many restrictions against them. Especially from non-producing, low population (compared to theirs), consumer-centric countries that make up most of the EU and who will try to manipulate pricing as financial districts.


You are correct, however, California in being the most populated state in California has influence over the rest of the country.

Most specifically in auto emission standards. If California requires a stricter emissions standards, all auto manufactuers (domestic and international) will build all of its cars for the US market to California standards. Thus benefitting the rest of the country.

Same will be true with new California TV energy standards. TV manufactuers in China will re-tool its factory to meet California standards and export them anywhere.

That's a big negative there. Manufacturers build according to their own standards and retrofit exported models to California. This has been a standard operating procedure on many items now for years. The higher prices they can charge in that state is what's keeping those exports flowing in. If (or when) the economy there crashes the entire state will find itself short on many many items.

Yes, California's "green" attempts. Those non-air conditioned wire cage-like buildings. You're going it wrong.

[Nightsky]

Clearly we do, mate if you think a nation can survive with no primary industry and rely on making cups of tea for tourists and financial mockery (shuffling a whole heap of things that don't exist around in circles and printing money out of nothing - think the derivatives thing that just happened in the states) then I wish you the best of luck because you are going to need it.


Mate, you are confusing facts with wishes. I do not wish for the banking industry to entirely taking over. I am merely stating the fact that we have outsourced much of the secondary sector (industry), keeping a highly subsidised primary sector (agriculture) where we just put money in. The sector where most money is earned is services (tertiary sector), which is more than just banks.

However, yes, most money is made "out of nothing" as you put it, with banks an the like. All the bailout stuff is ridiculous, but necessary, unless you are prepared to be set back by 20% or so (in terms of the economy). Which might be healthy, but noone will be with you on that one - everyone just loves his own dollars too much.

[joka]

EU practice what you preach try to prevent POLAND from using coal to produce more electricity then will voluntarily follow suit..

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4412/ewea3.jpg

Its not coal thats the problem, its gas.

[pg_ord]

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4646854&postcount=1

Above all, Obama needed to be able to demonstrate to the Senate that he could deliver China in any global climate regulation framework, so conservative senators could not argue that US carbon cuts would further advantage Chinese industry. With midterm elections looming, Obama and his staff also knew that Copenhagen would be probably their only opportunity to go to climate change talks with a strong mandate. This further strengthened China's negotiating hand, as did the complete lack of civil society political pressure on either China or India. Campaign groups never blame developing countries for failure; this is an iron rule that is never broken. The Indians, in particular, have become past masters at co-opting the language of equity ("equal rights to the atmosphere") in the service of planetary suicide – and leftish campaigners and commentators are hoist with their own petard.
p-)

[hskywalker]

I have been tring to find some tables, only steel productions...
http://www.heybrain.com/notheal/article/uploads/200909/21_230658_1.png
But I have checked some other links:
China steel production, almost equal to rest of world. China export less than 10% of steel, so it closely consumes half of world steel.
China is currently expanding infrastracture. Rails, subway, highway. Read another table more than 50% expanding of rail way system is planned(Can't find it). Reorganize of cities, tearing old buildings down, building new ones in a more scientific way. And there is still potential. Big country big population. People need to see it to understand.

China is in the process of urbanization, rural people will move to cities. But income is low, most the new urban people won't ever be able to afford a house. The solution is...To build more in big cities. And to expand transportation network to small towns. There are just too many rural populations.

Estimates is chinese population will peak around 1.5billion, the infrastracture expansion will end one day, maybe 20 to 30 years. Probably that day China will side with western countries, and denouncing india and african nations: "Why don't you love the earth and stop emmitting CO2?" At that time the commodity price will be more expensive, india and the rest developing countries will have a more difficult time than China in modernization. Good luck to our indian and r.o.w developing nations.:) If I was still on mpsite, I sure won't play green hypocrates at that time.

[dredger14]

Estimates is chinese population will peak around 1.5billion, the infrastracture expansion will end one day, maybe 20 to 30 years. Probably that day China will side with western countries, and denouncing india and african nations: "Why don't you love the earth and stop emmitting CO2?" At that time the commodity price will be more expensive, india and the rest developing countries will have a more difficult time than China in modernization. Good luck to our indian and r.o.w developing nations.:) If I was still on mpsite, I sure won't play green hypocrates at that time.

The day hypocrites like yourself start preaching to "underdeveloped" countries is the day pollution becomes extinct in China??

What a smelly pile of BS...LOL

[cn_habs]

Its simple. Russia found the UK was using false data that was in many eyes deliberatly falsified to push through a world wide 'Green Government'.


Climate change is BS pure and simple - a fear tool to herd the masses. By all means protect the planet, keep it as clean and well kept as possible and curb pollution, but Al Gore et al stand to make billions from the carbon credit trading scheme whilst we the people get taxed to death for it.

Well done China / Russia for exposing their hypocritical lies.

One is entitled to his/her opinion no matter how much common sense and critical thinking he or she possess..woot

[cn_habs]

Well, to our defence: When we did most of our poluting nobody knew it would have negative consequenses (or atleast not like this). Now that we have found out how damaging carbon emition can be, things have changed. China, India and Africa can't just say that because we (the western world) have poluted in the past its A-OK for them to polute just as mutch in the future.

My 2c...

No, it's not right for the us the Chinese to pollute as much as we can. the CCP won't last long if there's no fresh water left.

Nevertheless, double standards...So much hypocrisy in such a short paragrah. No wonder the planet is so fvcked up.

BS.

[cn_habs]

I'm glad to hear.

The sooner the better.

You guys ****ed up the world by emitting all those pollutions in the past century and that's ok? If all you can do is too blame China, most middle-class in the West will still get ripped off by the wealthy corporate owners and "ethical" politicians.

It's time to find a solution instead of blaming it on the Chinese.

The human race is doomed to failed with great minds like you. :)

[cn_habs]

The day hypocrites like yourself start preaching to "underdeveloped" countries is the day pollution becomes extinct in China??

What a smelly pile of BS...LOL

How did the Earth degrade at an exponential rate in the past couple of centuries? That's right keep polluting and blame it on the Chinese.rofl

[Ordie]

It's time to find a solution instead of blaming it on the Chinese.



I agree.

Now lets go back to riding our bikes.

[acosta]

i would say, whether this UN climate change talk continue to proceed or not, china is always the winner. I will put china to the neutral position and it has no intention to sab it.

CHINA is more than happy to provide all new energy equipments to other nations and be the largest contractor in the world.

and only china can make wind, solar and hydro thing economically possible. that's just the harsh fact.

[gazell]

We are not killing ourselves. The thing you don't understand is only growth can solve the problem for developing countries. Otherwise, they will be stuck in poverty forever.

Sorry, for being dumb, but it seems to me, the choice is different right now. What you describe is theoretical in my view, the reality being: to survive or not, or something like that.

You might be right though, in the sense as Mastermind pointed out earlier: a lot of people die in the process, so those, who survive will be more prosperous, maybe.

[gazell]

i would say, whether this UN climate change talk continue to proceed or not, china is always the winner. I will put china to the neutral position and it has no intention to sab it.

Of course, the neutral winner... Neutral is the Judge, the referee..., or supposed to be.



CHINA is more than happy to provide all new energy equipments to other nations and be the largest contractor in the world.

and only china can make wind, solar and hydro thing economically possible. that's just the harsh fact.

Are you in a funny mood? A lot of technologies, China has, are foreign, some stolen, otherwise she is 70% coal reliant and quite a number of countries are way ahead of that level.

Also, the sorry thing about this bubble is, that probably such cheap workforce economies with disposable quality products will only be supported until it does not hurt customer countries' economies.

How that will be materialised and work out, I do not know, however, I think, such a fight back is inevitably going to happen.

[acosta]

Are you in a funny mood? A lot of technologies, China has, are foreign, some stolen

look who's talking? who's in the delusional middle ages high?

china has been space club since 1960s-1070s. china's been exporting weaponries for a long time. which were long before foreign tech even went to china after 1984.

what do you mean technologies are foreign? are stolen? are you stealing moral standard? is it for you to judge? you are so funny!

modern tech are assets of all mankind. are you saying europe steal compass,gunpowder,papermaking technologies from china? those are the key elements of explore the world. western nations only surpass china for 400 years in technologies. before 1500, it's all china leading the world in the domain of technologies.

china has the highest train line in tibet-qinghai region, fastest bullet trains and most advanced infrastructure in the world, they are all china tech made.

the newly opened wuhan-guanzou line are longest in the world at this level and part of china's super-railway system.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8406910.stm

you really have no idea of today's china. because you are scared to realize it. yeah, china's comeback will be scary, little cat.

[King of the Grey]

Are you in a funny mood? A lot of technologies, China has, are foreign, some stolen, otherwise she is 70% coal reliant and quite a number of countries are way ahead of that level.


well i while I hate to agree on that, yes, China do 'steal' from foreign countries. One thing to note though...too bad u weren't living in Hong Kong during the 60s, cos ppl like parents n relatives recall the general low-quality goods coming from Japan. Yup, the same low-quality radios from Sony, cheap and flimsy cars from Toyota, sad tin robot toys...everything that the Japanese can get their hands on, they copied, slapped their own logo, sold it...to buy Japanese, would mean ur a richman-wannabe...not enough money to buy Western, but too rich for common stuff.

While in Japan, Toyota, sony etc...used their researchers to investigate, develop, refine. Now they have fu*kin walking talking robots who will take over the world some day.

ya sure, China isn't the biggest 'green' economy in the world, but she is doing a damn lot more than the States. Instead of using that money to build schools, hospitals, social benefits, China is gonna do this:
http://solar-energy-expert.blogspot.com/2009/03/dunhuang-solar-project-china.html
And they're doing it knowing the firm WILL lose money, so only state enterprises will take this bid...

but why waste this 5billion yuan? cos this will benefit the entire country in the nxt 100 years. If ur mindset is still stuck in the zone where Made in China = cheap, well, thats cos the only stuff u can afford are those that are cheap. Wal-Mart doesn't really demand high-quality stuff. Apple does...yes thats right, ur IMacs, Iphones, Zune, HTC Diamond are all assembled in China. You can say assembly doesn't require a lot of skill, yeah, but why not outsource to Lagos?

The obvious thing is, that Chinese factories, with the right investment and management, can offer high-grade products and still be cheaper than being assembled in Wisconsin. Whats to say China won't be provinding that sort of product internally? Wind turbines don't need to be top-notch at start when the blades and control systems can be easily upgraded every 2-3 years!

you need to tour China.

[gazell]

look who's talking? who's in the delusional middle ages high?

True, I'm about 400 years old.


china has been space club since 1960s-1070s. china's been exporting weaponries for a long time. which were long before foreign tech even went to china after 1984.

what do you mean technologies are foreign? are stolen? are you stealing moral standard? is it for you to judge? you are so funny!

I'm entitled to my opinion. Have you put any arguments forward?


modern tech are assets of all mankind. are you saying europe steal compass,gunpowder,papermaking technologies from china? those are the key elements of explore the world. western nations only surpass china for 400 years in technologies. before 1500, it's all china leading the world in the domain of technologies.

We are talking today here. The era of industrial espionage.

Are you saying, past 'tech' were/are not an asset of all mankind - whereas modern ones are, just so as to be fair or what -, but exclusive to countries who invented them, whatever many years ago? Do you want us to pay China for having invented gunpowder? Just make this a general law, I'm happy with that, a lot is gonna be paid to Hungary.:lol::lol:


china has the highest train line in tibet-qinghai region, fastest bullet trains and most advanced infrastructure in the world, they are all china tech made.

Yes, are these the one of those, constantly fixed for not to collapse?


the newly opened wuhan-guanzou line are longest in the world at this level and part of china's super-railway system.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8406910.stm

you really have no idea of today's china. because you are scared to realize it.

I hope, I'm wrong. You just do not forget, you live in a communist country. That's how all of them forever worked: lying the stars off the sky, how much better themselves were doing than anybody else, when in fact, they were always far from it. All of them were forever based on huge lies. Try to keep that in mind.

I'm not scared of the Chinese. I am very worried about communism and all the eval it entails. Good luck and we all need that, but most of all a country with 20% of the world's population and 7% of its drinking water.


yeah, china's comeback will be scary, little cat.

Do not call me little cat, or such like. If nothing else, we did not herd sheep together.

[gazell]

Sorry, I missed your post, Grey.


well i while I hate to agree on that, yes, China do 'steal' from foreign countries. One thing to note though...too bad u weren't living in Hong Kong during the 60s, cos ppl like parents n relatives recall the general low-quality goods coming from Japan. Yup, the same low-quality radios from Sony, cheap and flimsy cars from Toyota, sad tin robot toys...everything that the Japanese can get their hands on, they copied, slapped their own logo, sold it...to buy Japanese, would mean ur a richman-wannabe...not enough money to buy Western, but too rich for common stuff.

I did not live there, but I'm aware of it. It's a big 'invention', to make things that need replacing soon. It's a deliberate marketing ploy, to boost sails, just like the tricks of crooks in margarine tabs, where you can't get the goods out off and so on. Unfortunately, it put a big weight on the environment.


While in Japan, Toyota, sony etc...used their researchers to investigate, develop, refine. Now they have fu*kin walking talking robots who will take over the world some day.

Do not forget, Japan's military spending was limited - maybe near to zero - after WWII. They had plenty to invest in research.


ya sure, China isn't the biggest 'green' economy in the world, but she is doing a damn lot more than the States. Instead of using that money to build schools, hospitals, social benefits, China is gonna do this:
http://solar-energy-expert.blogspot.com/2009/03/dunhuang-solar-project-china.html
And they're doing it knowing the firm WILL lose money, so only state enterprises will take this bid...

but why waste this 5billion yuan? cos this will benefit the entire country in the nxt 100 years. If ur mindset is still stuck in the zone where Made in China = cheap, well, thats cos the only stuff u can afford are those that are cheap. Wal-Mart doesn't really demand high-quality stuff. Apple does...yes thats right, ur IMacs, Iphones, Zune, HTC Diamond are all assembled in China. You can say assembly doesn't require a lot of skill, yeah, but why not outsource to Lagos?

I can only hope, she is doing something meaningful now. No, I do not think the US is leading the way in any jolly respect.


The obvious thing is, that Chinese factories, with the right investment and management, can offer high-grade products and still be cheaper than being assembled in Wisconsin. Whats to say China won't be provinding that sort of product internally? Wind turbines don't need to be top-notch at start when the blades and control systems can be easily upgraded every 2-3 years!

I do not know. If there is no work, peole will take any underpayed jobs too, anywhere. And will riot. And, as I know, one of them being my brother's firm going bankrupt, being pushed out of the market by a much cheaper, though worse quality Chinese product. The EU is going to have to do something about it, if it wants to survive.

Outsourcing does not always work. All call centers have been put outside. Nobody uses them: Sorry, I cannot understand a thing you are saying. Put the phone down.


you need to tour China.

Indeed. One of those countries I always fancied to visit and never have done. It's very due.:):)

[Solvent]

Do not forget, Japan's military spending was limited - maybe near to zero - after WWII. They had plenty to invest in research.

I can only hope, she is doing something meaningful now. No, I do not think the US is leading the way in any jolly respect.

I do not know. If there is no work, peole will take any underpayed jobs too, anywhere. And will riot. And, as I know, one of them being my brother's firm going bankrupt, being pushed out of the market by a much cheaper, though worse quality Chinese product. The EU is going to have to do something about it, if it wants to survive.

Outsourcing does not always work. All call centers have been put outside. Nobody uses them: Sorry, I cannot understand a thing you are saying. Put the phone down.

Indeed. One of those countries I always fancied to visit and never have done. It's very due.:):)

China didn't put lots of money in military before either. The fund for military was so limited, to the extent that the army had to operate its own companies to support itself. Thanks for GDP growth, the military spending and R & D investing are picking up recently.

As for the outsourcing, as long as there is still free market, the manufacturing will always flow to the low-cost places. The trend is happen in America as well as Europe. Probably, it will happen in China in the future.

Of course, countries can always raise the tariffs. But do you want to take the risk that lose the international market? Meanwhile, I think there is always somebody who is more than happy to take over the place you give up. It's quite dilemma, isn't it?

Every country has its own strength. China and other developing countries have cheap and dedicated workforces. Europe has advanced technology and matured management experiences. I think the best chance for Europe is to focus on the technology, especially on green technology because mankind is gonna need it very soon.

[gazell]

I think the best chance for Europe is to focus on the technology, especially on green technology because mankind is gonna need it very soon.

That's one of the few and very important things where we differ. I think, we are a bit past of having too much of a chance to help it.

I know, China has a political, an economical reason to state it's not so, the West has otherwise. This is not politics for me though. We are far in to head for a disaster, we could have helped about, still could somewhat. Some think otherwise, it's not politics though. This is going to fock all, who ignore it, for sure in my mind. This has nought to do with call centers and whatever else.

[Solvent]

That's one of the few and very important things where we differ. I think, we are a bit past of having too much of a chance to help it.

I know, China has a political, an economical reason to state it's not so, the West has otherwise. This is not politics for me though. We are far in to head for a disaster, we could have helped about, still could somewhat. Some think otherwise, it's not politics though. This is going to fock all, who ignore it, for sure in my mind. This has nought to do with call centers and whatever else.

Yes, we are different. I actually is more optimistic.Human being as animals, breeding and expanding are in our blood. So we are heading that way from the beginning already, without major technology breakthrough, the day is coming, just matter of times. The difference is just starving to death today, or to die in disaster in the future. But I do agree with you though. We need to protect the environment to buy some time for the coming of new technology.

As for China, I think the gov already realize the importance of the issue after years' suffering of desperately looking for resource all around the world. That's why they are determined to be the leader of green technology according to a article I read not long ago). There are many projects of solar , wind and hydra power plants going on everywhere. And they are going to build 100 nuclear plants too. I think when they keep this in mind, it will happen. Not participating the legally binding agreement doesn't mean China doesn't want to go green. The green technology is the future where China wants to be as well.

[Kilgor]

At the end of the China cannot keep building 1-2 fired power plants per day. The environmental concerns with pollution are already lethal, and she must on one hand deliver rising standards of living to keep the CCP legitimate but without choking everyone to death.

[gazell]

Yes, we are different. I actually is more optimistic.Human being as animals, breeding and expanding are in our blood. So we are heading that way from the beginning already, without major technology breakthrough, the day is coming, just matter of times. The difference is just starving to death today, or to die in disaster in the future.

Sorry, you are making me confused about whether to cry or laugh.


As for China, I think the gov already realize the importance of the issue after years' suffering of desperately looking for resource all around the world. That's why they are determined to be the leader of green technology according to a article I read not long ago). There are many projects of solar , wind and hydra power plants going on everywhere. And they are going to build 100 nuclear plants too. I think when they keep this in mind, it will happen. Not participating the legally binding agreement doesn't mean China doesn't want to go green. The green technology is the future where China wants to be as well.

We have been in this for decades, take it from me, it's called Duma ('sick talk' in slang), have a nice time though. I'm having some red wine right now, so cheers!

[Mastermind]

At the end of the China cannot keep building 1-2 fired power plants per day. The environmental concerns with pollution are already lethal, and she must on one hand deliver rising standards of living to keep the CCP legitimate but without choking everyone to death.
Oh, I don't know...they still have not exceeded the pollution levels of turn of the century (1900) London, Berlin, St. Louis, Chicago (on a sultry day), Philadelphia, or Pittsburgh. Besides, China can do what ever Chinese Communist Leaders want...I see they still worship Maoism and Big Daddy Mao was not one to hesitate over the loss of a few million Chinese or ten million for that matter.

[Ordie]

Oh, I don't know...they still have not exceeded the pollution levels of turn of the century (1900) London, Berlin, St. Louis, Chicago (on a sultry day), Philadelphia, or Pittsburgh. Besides, China can do what ever Chinese Communist Leaders want...I see they still worship Maoism and Big Daddy Mao was not one to hesitate over the loss of a few million Chinese or ten million for that matter.

The Commies in China worship Adam Smith more than Mao. They also fear the Chinese more so than anyone else. If the Chinese are not happy about the quality of life ( clean water , clean air, and normal babies) they will overthrow the government.

The more China pollutes, the better the chances of the Communist to lose their power.

[clue]

The Commies in China worship Adam Smith more than Mao. They also fear the Chinese more so than anyone else. If the Chinese are not happy about the quality of life ( clean water , clean air, and normal babies) they will overthrow the government.

The more China pollutes, the better the chances of the Communist to lose their power.

Is there a reason why you desire chaos in China?

[HellToupee]

They will? Why didn't it happen then in the past where quality of life was much lower, periods of widespread famine etc.

[edi_]

They will? Why didn't it happen then in the past where quality of life was much lower, periods of widespread famine etc.
Indeed.
I doubt anything bad will happen in China, especially now when economy is booming.