conflict in Chechnya

[R935]

I just have a question about the Chechnya. It seems that for some time Russian forces are fighting in Chechnya and there seems to be no end to it. Coming from a country that had a large number of conventional weaponry and mandatory military service it seemed impossible to win a “civil” war when basically everyone over 18 was a possible soldier. Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?

[sergey31]

It's pretty much over with...
Chechen rebels will never be able to make a stand against Russian army as they did in 1994-96 and beginning of 1999.
Most are killed or hunted down, a few that survived fleed to Georgia. They tried to make a come-back but were defeated. Now a few that are left are trying to recruit young kids, just like Palestinians against Israel.
Sooner or later they will die-off and Russian will never leave them alone to be independed....... It just take a bit more time.

[Russian Texan]

I just have a question about the Chechnya. It seems that for some time Russian forces are fighting in Chechnya and there seems to be no end to it. Coming from a country that had a large number of conventional weaponry and mandatory military service it seemed impossible to win a “civil” war when basically everyone over 18 was a possible soldier. Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?

There is very little to none understanding in the west about what is going on in Chechnya, it is being trivialized to the war for independence or "war on terror" depending on your political views and perception of the situation, WTF is "war on terror"?

Chechnya is a very, extremely complicated issue. Chechen conflict is not about independece, struggle for freedom, fight against terrorism or whatever, it is about money. It started because of money and it is going on because of money. War is a huge money making business and if it stops - lots of people in Russia will be very upset.
Russian soldiers and policemen are not fighting against Chechens, they are fightings against all odds, odds created by the corruption that infiltrated every aspect of the Russian society. The issue is extremely complicated and is a source for lots of lenghty discussions and arguements.
In short Russian soldiers were and still are, although on a lesser level because of Putin, being betrayed by their own generals and government.

Try to imagine situation when Iraqi insurgents spoke the same language as the US forces, were equiped with the latest and the best US armories had to offer, had full access to all of the radio com frequencies, were warned and given detailed information about all of the upcoming raids by the US forces, etc. - complete sell out...
Oh, one more thing: Chechens have also went through the soviet conscription system...

Add all those things up and you'll get a partial picture of what ****hole Chechnya is...

Frankly, I can't think of any other military, except Russian, that is capable of dealing with all that ****.

[SeanAshi]

I can't think of any other military, except Russian, that is capable of dealing with all that ****.C'mon now....the gool ol USA can deal with it just like the Russian military now....

[MEGR]

Whatever happened to that 16 OBr guy? He really knows his stuff aboot anything Russian.

[Dennis G]

Whatever happened to that 16 OBr guy? He really knows his stuff aboot anything Russian.

He is still around

[SeanAshi]

Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?Urban warefare is a bitch but looking at Grozny I don't know if you can call that urban...Russians in Checnya is like Americans in Iraq...neither of us want to hear that we are not achieving our objectives and creating more problems.

[Russian Texan]

I can't think of any other military, except Russian, that is capable of dealing with all that ****.C'mon now....the gool ol USA can deal with it just like the Russian military now....

With all due respect, but US has hard time dealing with Iraq and its relatively peacefull population.
Now, what if

Try to imagine situation when Iraqi insurgents spoke the same language as the US forces, were equiped with the latest and the best US armories had to offer, had full access to all of the radio com frequencies, were warned and given detailed information about all of the upcoming raids by the US forces, etc. - complete sell out...
Oh, one more thing: Chechens have also went through the soviet conscription system... + US had to operate in a terrain covered with mountains and dense forests (there goes your airpower), add to that some real, Stalingrad style, urban fighting, factor in climate conditions: Chechnya is made out of mud, M-16, Abrams and Apaches don't like mud...
And Chechens are not Iraqis, Chechens pride themselves on being warriors, its a different mind set.

Think about allof the things and factors I just have mentioned, think about US tollerance towards casualties...

US military is the best funded military in the world, it looks great, it is high tech, it can deliver the punch, but can it take one?
In boxing there is a term - "glass chin". The boxer can be very strong, athletic, have great technique and endurance but there is one flaw - he can not take a punch and therefore...

Could US military handle Chechnya given the similar situation - I don't know, and you don't know either.
As far as I am concerned, modern US military is remains unprowen in a battle versus determined, well trained and well equiped enemy, the last real war US had was the Vietnam...
So like I said: I don't know and neither do you.

[SeanAshi]

With all due respect, but US has hard time dealing with Iraq and its relatively peacefull population.
With all due respect if our military surrounded Baghdad and pounded them with artillery and sorties and indiscriminate bombing like Russian military forces around Grozny then Baghdad wouldn't be much of a problem.

[garyfanclub]

With all due respect, but US has hard time dealing with Iraq and its relatively peacefull population.
With all due respect if our military surrounded Baghdad and pounded them with artillery and sorties and indiscriminate bombing like Russian military forces around Grozny then Baghdad wouldn't be much of a problem.

pwnd :backhand:

[Russian Texan]

Did you ever wonder why Russians had to bomb Grozny into stone age? Think about it. I'll give you a hint - Stalingrad.

[obd]

With all due respect Russian Texan, the United States military has gone toe to toe and defeated some of the mightiest and most fierce fighitng forces in the entire world..........It is not so much a factor of this army or that army being able to absorb casualties and suffering....Everyone knows that it is the politics that matter....Any "Army" can keep being fed raw recruits and "fresh meat" and equipment if it has the right political apparatus in place to keep feeding it.....In the case of America, since it is a free democracy where people have the rights to express themselves and have access to information, if things go poorly they can more easly pull out using the political process........

the American army is not having a "tough time" as you say in Iraq....In point of fact Russian Texan, we are doing far far better than Russians were doing in Chechnya over the last several years (even Russian official casualties are in the many thousands and "Russian Soldiers Mothers Association" disputes it as a cover up and that many many more Russian boys have died and never been acknowledged and have just "dissappeared" off the records).......I remmember daily reports of Russian news Pravda and others of Russian casualties and they were MUCH higher than American casualties in Iraq...MUCH HIGHER!!! Are you saying the American Army is not holding up because that makes no sence at all!!!!! The American Army is doing just fine thank you....in fact Iraq experience will only make it stringer......it is the political will behind the army that is not doing so will.....the "civilian boys in Washington".....

In Russian however, the political system uses disinformation and control of the media to basically stifle opposition to the war.....So, the Russian Army was crushed in the first Chechen war and then it came back again..and it lost thousands again but pushed forward.....I ask you this: Was it the Russian Army itself, which by all accounts is full of corruption and poorly trained conscripts and has one of the lowest morals and highest suicide rates of any armed force in the world (which is hardly surviving if you ask me and represents a "slow death" from the glory days of 1945 if you ask me), that was responsible for its own continued existence in Chechnya or was it more so the reason of the political apparatus behind the army that caused it to survive???? I think this is an important question to consider.......Armies are simply huge machines.....as long as they get thier fuel (flesh and steel), they will survive (at least most of time)......What is more important is the survival of the political system beind the army...Often if that goes, then the Army will collapse into factions as will the rest of the country......

JUST A THOUGHT.....Please dont flame me!!!

[OB Kenobi]

Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?Urban warefare is a bitch but looking at Grozny I don't know if you can call that urban...Russians in Checnya is like Americans in Iraq...neither of us want to hear that we are not achieving our objectives and creating more problems.

Except the Chechens attacked Russia on Russia's land, while Iraq has never attacked America. Russia has an excuse, America has little excuse for invading Iraq except vague moral claims and social theories.

[nasredeenn]

I think that as was posted early - a big mess - a ****hole. If Russian military got more money, the conflict would end very quick. If Russians got as much $ as US spends on military, there wouldn't be any 'chechnya conflict' in a cople of month.

[Deuterium]

Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?Urban warefare is a bitch but looking at Grozny I don't know if you can call that urban...Russians in Checnya is like Americans in Iraq...neither of us want to hear that we are not achieving our objectives and creating more problems.

Except the Chechens attacked Russia on Russia's land, while Iraq has never attacked America. Russia has an excuse, America has little excuse for invading Iraq except vague moral claims and social theories.

Like hey! Don't kill those people for just being Kurdish. Or hey! Don't kill those people to keep yourself in power. Or hey! Don't invade your neighbors to steal their oil. Yeah strange social theories.


http://img13.exs.cx/img13/4592/BUDANSKI.jpg

[Deuterium]

I think that as was posted early - a big mess - a ****hole. If Russian military got more money, the conflict would end very quick. If Russians got as much $ as US spends on military, there wouldn't be any 'chechnya conflict' in a cople of month.

I ain't buying that argument.

[Dennis G]

Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?Urban warefare is a bitch but looking at Grozny I don't know if you can call that urban...Russians in Checnya is like Americans in Iraq...neither of us want to hear that we are not achieving our objectives and creating more problems.

Except the Chechens attacked Russia on Russia's land, while Iraq has never attacked America. Russia has an excuse, America has little excuse for invading Iraq except vague moral claims and social theories.

Yeah you’re right because Saddam brutally murdering civilians is none of our business.

[16 OBr SpN]

I just have a question about the Chechnya. It seems that for some time Russian forces are fighting in Chechnya and there seems to be no end to it. Coming from a country that had a large number of conventional weaponry and mandatory military service it seemed impossible to win a “civil” war when basically everyone over 18 was a possible soldier. Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?

Currently, most of the Ops are performed by SOF. The heaviest burden of the 2nd Chechen war lies particularly on Spetsnaz GRU (especially 22nd Brigade), and 45th Regiment of VDV. Tactics are refined and tuned up with every op. New weapons and equipment is tested and implemented as needed.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Russian Texan]

In the case of America, since it is a free democracy where people have the rights to express themselves and have access to information,
You must be kidding, right? :lol: :lol: :lol:

if things go poorly they can more easly pull out using the political process........
You mean like in Vietnam and Iraq?

the American army is not having a "tough time" as you say in Iraq....
So they are having a picnic over there, ok then...

In point of fact Russian Texan, we are doing far far better than Russians were doing in Chechnya
Of course you are, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts, duh...

remmember daily reports of Russian news Pravda and others of Russian casualties and they were MUCH higher than American casualties in Iraq...MUCH HIGHER!!!
Here is the link to the article that says that US is loosing more men in Afganistan then USSR did http://www.kp.ru/daily/23160/24792/, so what's your point?

Are you saying the American Army is not holding up because that makes no sence at all!!!!!
I suggest you read my posts again...

In Russian however, the political system uses disinformation and control of the media to basically stifle opposition to the war.....
Do you speak russian or may be you can read russian? You statement is a complete BS/myth/misconception and if you spoke or were able to read russian, you'd knew it. Here is one link to one of the "state controlled, censored media sourceshttp://www.newsru.com/index.html Oh, I am sorry you don't unerstand russian....

So, the Russian Army was crushed in the first Chechen war
Uh?????? WTF are you talking about?

and then it came back again
Why did it come back again?

..and it lost thousands again but pushed forward.....I ask you this: Was it the Russian Army itself, which by all accounts is full of corruption
Yeah, that what i use to think also, wake up and smell the roses http://militarycorruption.com/

and poorly trained conscripts
And how would you know that? Oh, wait, you heard it somewhere from someone on internet :roll:

and has one of the lowest morals
Ever heard of the 6th company? 90 conscripts vs about 2000 mercenaries, so much for the poor training and low morale...
If you think all of the US forces in Iraq are in high spirit, well, then you need a reality check. And notice Iraq - is not Chechnya...

and highest suicide rates of any armed force in the world
Survival of the fittest.

(which is hardly surviving if you ask me and represents a "slow death" from the glory days of 1945 if you ask me), that was responsible for its own continued existence in Chechnya or was it more so the reason of the political apparatus behind the army that caused it to survive????
WTF did you just say???

I think this is an important question to consider.......Armies are simply huge machines.....as long as they get thier fuel (flesh and steel), they will survive (at least most of time)......What is more important is the survival of the political system beind the army...Often if that goes, then the Army will collapse into factions as will the rest of the country......
You mean like in Russia after USSR dissolvement?

JUST A THOUGHT.....Please dont flame me!!!
Your thoughts are based on myths, misconceptions and rumors. No flame just education and sarcasm...

[16 OBr SpN]

I think that as was posted early - a big mess - a ****hole. If Russian military got more money, the conflict would end very quick. If Russians got as much $ as US spends on military, there wouldn't be any 'chechnya conflict' in a cople of month.

I ain't buying that argument.

Depends on what he meant.

1) We had plenty of problems in terms of material support. Guys bought their own stuff (boots; watches; items of clothing; etc.)
2) We had only 2 night capable helicopters. Considering the frequency of engagements by our mobile units, this is NOT enough. They wouldn't even cover an area of Argun, leave alone Vedeno.
3) Shortage of armored vests.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[garyfanclub]

The whole "Russia would kick Chechnya's ass if it had the amount of money the US Military has" holds absolutely no water. It negates doctrinal and training differences, and not to mention the differences in mentality of the two nation's militaries.

[OB Kenobi]

Except the Chechens attacked Russia on Russia's land, while Iraq has never attacked America. Russia has an excuse, America has little excuse for invading Iraq except vague moral claims and social theories.



Like hey! Don't kill those people for just being Kurdish. Or hey! Don't kill those people to keep yourself in power. Or hey! Don't invade your neighbors to steal their oil. Yeah strange social theories.

How about Turkey? I guess they're allowed to kill people for being Kurdish.

Saddam invaded Kuwait not to steal their oil but because he considered Kuwait historically part of Iraq, whatever "Iraq" is exactly, since the British created the artificial divisions now in the region.

But, are you implying we invaded Iraq just because Saddam was such a bad guy? Ok, but now what? What is the alternative to Saddam?

And, what happened to all those claims Bush made? Does that mean Bush lied to Congress, the UN, the American people, and the world?

[Dennis G]

Its cowards like you Kenobi that keep tyrants in power

[MEGR]

This thread seems to be spiriling outta control. Kinda reminds me of Woodland, and all the Russian members back in the old days.. Brings back memories.

[Abbyy]

I think that as was posted early - a big mess - a ****hole. If Russian military got more money, the conflict would end very quick. If Russians got as much $ as US spends on military, there wouldn't be any 'chechnya conflict' in a cople of month.

I ain't buying that argument.

I agree with 16th. We're not talking about those endless billions of dollars which US army spends monthly. But several billions to equip forces in Chechnya with all requied gear, communication equipment, IR and NV equipment, more precise munitions are very needed + NO any political games

And situation will improve significantly within couple of months.

[SeanAshi]

if things go poorly they can more easly pull out using the political process........
You mean like in Vietnam and Iraq?
Like the Soviet pull out of Afghanistan. Iraqi rebels are the ones abuducting anyone that they can get their hands on in Iraq, but in Chechnya its the Russian soldiers who abduct the Chechens. I really don't see the point in Russian soldiers dragging dead Cheches behind their vehicles, bbc had video to back that up, that ranks up there with the prison photos coming out of Iraq.

[2RHPZ]

Everything deserves to be posted, only good thing deserve to be remembered ...


21/06 23:10 the rebels entered Nazran (the capital of Ingushetia), Nesterovskaya, Sleptsovskaya, Ordzhonikidzevskaya, Troitskaya, Karabulak and probably some others. As it was stated only two cities - Magas and Malgobek remained intact (according to some sources there were clashes on the outskirts of Magas). Simultaneously the Resistance Forces assaulted and took control over every militia checkpoint along the Rostov-Baku highway. There were seen bodies of killed FSBists, militiamen and Federal soldiers. A group of TV reporters was stopped at some GAI (traffic militia) checkpoints on the border of the republic. When they got out of their car they saw several gunmen who called themselves "separatists" and said they were going to overrun the republic.

But the main events took place in Nazran. Here the rebels assaulted on the building of the Inferior Ministry of Ingushetia and set it on fire. Inferior Minister Kostoev was killed. So were his two deputies and the minister's brother (militia officer) as well as every defender. Next target was the GOVD (City Inferior Ministry Detachment). At first the defending militiamen were suggested to give up but after they refused the building was destroyed by RPGs and burnt down. All the 30 defenders died. In the same way the rebels destroyed a local OMON (special militia unit) base and the Special Nazran Border Guard Unit. Another attack was against the jail aimed to release detainees kidnapped by the FSB but this attempt failed.

Most of local militia bases and FSB HQs were assaulted and destroyed in the rest attacked areas. As witnesses reported the streets of Nazran were COVERED BY DOZENS OF COPRS. So were the roadsides of major highways. Many soldiers and militiamen were disarmed and released by rebels. Outside Troitskaya they assaulted and destroyed a military base (casualties are unknown). Outside Nazran the rebels destroyed several military trucks, in one of them 10 OMON soldiers burnt away. All together Federal losses are estimated as several hundreds of KIAs. The Kremlin officially says about 70 KIAs. Officially confirmed are the deaths of the Inferior Minister, all his deputies, the Chief Republican Prosecutor and his two deputies, the commander of the Ingushetian Inferior Forces Regiment, Colonel Katsiev, and several other prosecutors and militia officers. The Resistance Forces lost at least two gunmen. Local civilians tried to talk to rebels. All of them (rebels) seemed to be Ingushs. They said their aim is to overthrow the regime of Zyazikov and to save their relatives from FSBist "death squadrons". One of them said they were assisted by Shamil Basayev.

Sharply at 03:00 the rebels all together left the attacked areas using captured military trucks. Local firefights in the Southern Ingushetia have been lasting up to now. A couple of hours ago the rebels interecepted a military column advancing on the village of Galashki and killed up to 15 soldiers. The rebels also report about captured armoured vehicles and a big amount of ammo and military supplies.

This is a story of one traffic militia (GAI) officer taken in prison by the rebels and published by Ingushetiya.ru in my translation:

"My car was stopped by several armed people. I showed my militia officer paper. They screamed at me, tied me up and put into a GAI checkpoint. Everyone spoke Ingush. "We don't kill GAI officers. We kill only prosecutors, investigators and judges who kidnapp and kill Ingushs and who have sold themselves to the Russian special services" - a rebel said. I watched as they stopped a car with two officers who called themselves investigators. They were shot down and the bodies put aside together. Then they stopped a white Mercedes with prosecutors Oziev, Busurtanov and two men else. After the rebels recognized them as prosecutors all the four were taken out of the car and executed. Each got a control shot to his head. Then they opened fire and destroyed a military jeep that had refused to stop. I saw the body of the Nazran market's director. He was taken as a militia officer because he had a holster with a pistol. Several GAI officers were lying near me. [At last] a rebel said that we were free and told us to run to Nazran. We went to the city. My car and my weapon had been confiscated. I met several fighters' checkpoints on the main highway, who checked my papers and seeing that I'm a GAI officer didn't detain me. They said to be taking revenge for kidnapped and killed guys. They were killing investigators, spetsnaz and OMON officers because those assist the Russian special services."

Meanwile the two last days have been the days of analysis for the both sides. The main question is about the numbers of casualties and involved troop. According to Ingush Resistance leader Assadulla the action was conducted by an enforced battalion. The losses were 6 KIA and 14 WIA. All the WIA were evacuated. Of the 6 one rebel was killed in the fight at the checkpoint nearby Ekazhi by OMON soldiers, in response the checkpoint was destroyed and 8 OMON servicemen were killed, 5 else were killed in a incoming jeep while trying to join their comrades. Another rebel was killed in the street firefights in Nazran. The rest four died under massive air and artillery strikes on the mountain regions next morning. The Federal losses reached 150-200 KIA and 300WIA. These estimates are close to the witnesses' evidences. Moscow officially reported at first about 18 KIA, then 70 KIA, now it admits 95 KIA. The published listing of casualties includes 3 colonel, 3 lieutenant-colonels of the Ingushetian militia. Also it's been reported about the death of the Magas airbase commander, his assistant, OMON deputy commander and three elite spetznaz Vympel unit's officers - the names and ranks are unknown. Besides killed and wounded a big number of soldiers were disarmed and released by the rebels or deserted from their position and got hidden somewhere.

Some interesting details have been also highlighted. The Izvestia paper reports that the 503d Regiment of the 58th Army (1500+ servicemen) had been blocked for 6 hours by a unit of 15-20 rebels. Their fire was so effective that the Federals couldn't neither pass off nor suppress the enemy. In result all the militia units were left with no army support. An unknown intelligence officer tells Grani.ru that the rebels' primary aim was heavy trucks that they would intercept on the roads. Then the column made up of the trucks moved to the 58th Army's warehouses, loaded up and passed away to the mountains. It has been reported about 300 stolen AKs, 215 pistols, 6 MGs and a great amount of ammo.

The number of tropheys is impressive, as well as the casualties' ratio - 1/30 or up to 1/100 if we take only the night assault. Another impressive thing is that how the Federals didn't try to pursue the retreating enemy. Next day the NTV said they had noticed no firefight in the mountain and pre-mountain areas. In fact the military forces IGNORED Putin's strict order "to pursue and eliminate every bandit" and to "put under a trial every survivor" just to eliminate him after the trial. The soldiers weren't in hurry and they were bloody right of course because in the mountains they would have met nothing but more ambushes and more casualties.

On June 23 Putin personally took part in military exercizes in the Far East. Here the Federals proved their best - a brigade-size "terrorist unit" was successfully blocked and destroyed by combined air and marine infantry strikes - and got high praises from Putin. The idiocy of all this is beyond any comment. Besides his decisive strong orders (that no-one would perform) and idiotic shows Putin gave several briefings full of senseless idiotic statements. Putin: "so they gave several shots and run away..." (actually as we know it was the 503d's soldiers who run away after several enemy's shots), Ivanov (Minister of Defence): "our units worked well... we have enough forces to control the situation.." (shortly afterward he deployed one more regiment to there), Gryslov (the Duma speaker): "it's the result of the successful work of our military services" (as Grani.ru commented - thankfully the military services are still not so successfull in Moscow otherwise we would see nothing but ruins here" ). Also they several times repeated and refuted themselves about "hostages kidnapped by the criminals". Also it was said about "international terrorists" but now it has been already officially admitted that all the attackers were Ingushs with a small number of Chechens. Ingushetia the authorities reacted with a new wave of repressions, massive arrests and pogroms in the refugee camps. The arrests of innocent refugees were assisted by drubbing and mockeries. As usually Moscow hopes that more kidnapped and killed hostages will prevent the rebels from their new actions.

But, as it has been noticed by almost every world paper, the main failure of the Kremlin isn't military but political. Previously Fuhrer's propagandist campaign had based on three "self-evident" statements:

1 all the crimes in Chechnya are performed by foreign Islamist fighters,
2 they had built their strongholds there while Chechnya was independent in 1997-1998
3 their aim is a new great Islamic Amirate over all the world.

Now each peace of this is proven as BS:

1 all the rebels were ethnic Ingushs
2 Ingushetia, unlike Chechnya, hasn't been independent
3 the ONLY aim of the rebels (as EVERY of them said) was to stop FSB's cruel crimes against local civilians.

The Kremlin's failure in the propagandist war is already evident. Lets look out for the incoming military defeat.

[RuSoKaR]

"My car was stopped by several armed people. I showed my militia officer paper. They screamed at me, tied me up and put into a GAI checkpoint. Everyone spoke Ingush. "We don't kill GAI officers. We kill only prosecutors, investigators and judges who kidnapp and kill Ingushs and who have sold themselves to the Russian special services"
hm.. They were killing everyone who was in military uniform, in other way how would they know if he was in militia, spicially rebels would consider those GAI officers as betraders.


Sharply at 03:00 the rebels all together left the attacked areas using captured military trucks. Local firefights in the Southern Ingushetia have been lasting up to now. A couple of hours ago the rebels interecepted a military column advancing on the village of Galashki and killed up to 15 soldiers. The rebels also report about captured armoured vehicles and a big amount of ammo and military supplies.
WOW! rebels reported, interesting who have ties with those rebels :roll:


Moscow officially reported at first about 18 KIA, then 70 KIA, now it admits 95 KIA. The published listing of casualties includes 3 colonel, 3 lieutenant-colonels of the Ingushetian militia.
wait.. didn't this article said that they don't kill local militia?
and it does takes time until information will get to the federal center, plus this happend at night.


But, as it has been noticed by almost every world paper, the main failure of the Kremlin isn't military but political. Previously Fuhrer's propagandist campaign had based on three "self-evident" statements:

1 all the crimes in Chechnya are performed by foreign Islamist fighters,
2 they had built their strongholds there while Chechnya was independent in 1997-1998
3 their aim is a new great Islamic Amirate over all the world.
what Furer have to do with this one?
1 They sure don't know that coloner who is sitting right now in prison, he killed/raped a chechen women who was a sniper, which was killing his soldiers, but he commited a crime and now he is getting his part, He was a coler of Russian army(not a foreign Islamist fighter)
2 someone else have a better version of this? p-)
3 Well it was establishment of an Islamic country over there, if it isn't then why did they even invaded Dagest?

[R935]

I just have a question about the Chechnya. It seems that for some time Russian forces are fighting in Chechnya and there seems to be no end to it. Coming from a country that had a large number of conventional weaponry and mandatory military service it seemed impossible to win a “civil” war when basically everyone over 18 was a possible soldier. Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?

Currently, most of the Ops are performed by SOF. The heaviest burden of the 2nd Chechen war lies particularly on Spetsnaz GRU (especially 22nd Brigade), and 45th Regiment of VDV. Tactics are refined and tuned up with every op. New weapons and equipment is tested and implemented as needed.


Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Tnx 16 OBr SpN. So i guees regular conscript wasn't able to finish the job.

[aartamen]

Stating that the Chechens fight for the money is not correct. Read books about the conflict written by neutral observers or foreign fighters, who went there not for the money but to fight in Jihad. It's about as accurate to as to say that the Mudj of Afghanistan fought for money or the VC. It is often argued that the Russian ruling class is keeping the war going (instead of scoring a quick and decisive vicotry :lol: ) because it profits from the war. That's for those who know what and how the Russian elites think to decide. It does not sound logical to me.
The Chechens have deep seated hatred of the Russians. Again read up on the history of that people. Many quickly volunteered to fight for the Nazis. And were once more repressed after that war. After the events of the first war an individual Chechen needs no other incentive to go and kill the Russians. However I will readily accept that many if not most Chechen commanders will not turn down an opportunity to make a profit on this conflict.

If you read Olga Oliker's of RAND work about both conflicts you will see the picture much more clearly. But basically what happened was -
a. The initail assault on Grozny was piss-poor prepared, planed and executed. It resulted in horrible casualtiess and tremendous loss of face for the Russians.
b. Russians got really nasty toward all Chechens, leveling cities, rampaging and in general behaving very reprehensively.
c. Chechens, realizing that they once again were in a fight for their people's survival, behaved accordingly. They got a lot of foreign help.
d. Eventually Russians beat the Chechens almost into submission. Just recently there was another raid that killed over 50 pro-Moscow cops in a neighboring Caucasus nation.

I intentionally left out the questions who was to blame for the wars and who's more at fault. I do not think either of the two sides wil ever assume any repsonsibility. And yeah the Russains could have done a LOT better, given training and funds, especially in '94.


Actually Chechnya is very much like Vietnam (only on a small scale), where the NVA and VC knew about the upcoming operations before the untis that were to take part in them, had nearly inexaustible supply of arms and personnel, and almost inhuman zeal for the fight. Whereas their opposition did not want to be there, had vague idea about the purpose of the war and was tremendously hampered by their own political elites. There's plenty of differences of course.

[Russian Texan]

Hey, aartamen, wazzup bitch :D

So what happened to us getting together and having a little chit chat, you use to be so brave and vocal about your shooting skills...

Tell me, cowardness - is it a hereditary thing in your family or something that you have acquired on your own?

Basically what I am trying to say: F*** your momma, cracker!
P.S. and daddy too (in a sense f*** your daddy also)

God, I am so childish today, I LOVE IT!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


As for your "uptake on the situation" - there is only one thing that is true


That's for those who know what and how the Russian elites think to decide. It does not sound logical to me.
Well, duh, you moron... you are not Russian, that is why it doesn't sound logical or makes no sense to you, Russia - is not a logical place.

[RuSoKaR]

speaking about logic ;)

"Ymmom Rocciy ne poniat, arshinom ne izmerit, V rocciy moshno tolko verit" :P (Maykovckii?)

Man I can't really believe that I remember that one woot

[Russian Texan]

Тютчев, классиков, батенька, надобы знать :)

[Kilgor]

Saddam invaded Kuwait not to steal their oil but because he considered Kuwait historically part of Iraq, whatever "Iraq" is exactly, since the British created the artificial divisions now in the region.

?

I guess tha that hitler after ww1 had the right to reclaim territories that he thought where rightfully german and launch ww2 ?

You are a twisted idiot arnt you ?

Back to topic.

Im sure American commanders would love to have the freedom of action russian ones do in their conflict. US soldiers cant as much fart without it being a war crime, yet russian soldiers can conduct open, free combat without the whole world bitching about it.

[Russian Texan]

Im sure American commanders would love to have the freedom of action russian ones do in their conflict.
You must be kidding, right. If the military was in charge it would be over back in 95.

US soldiers cant as much fart without it being a war crime, yet russian soldiers can conduct open, free combat without the whole world bitching about it.
:cantbeli: Dude, c'mon man, you can't be serious...

[Kilgor]

Yes, I am serious.

There is so so rarely and I mean never any news about chechnya here. Or im sure in other western countries. Compare it to the coverage of Iraq or Israel.

No one cares about chechnya and Russians can do as they please.

Americans get caught beating and humiliating some prisioners and the media considers it the second holocaust . Some child in palistine accidently cops a bullet and the world media calls isreal bloody murderers.

Seriously, consider it lucky the world doesnt care about that place.

[DE_Six]

Im sure American commanders would love to have the freedom of action russian ones do in their conflict.
You must be kidding, right. If the military was in charge it would be over back in 95.


That's scary... :|

Do you remember the sh*tstorm that followed two years ago when a US stray bomb hit a wedding in Afghanistan? Imagine if they the US levelled Bagdhad...
The Russian army may not go unbridled, but they still have the freedom to use artillery and aerial bombings liberally in an urban center, an option the US will never have.


US soldiers cant as much fart without it being a war crime, yet russian soldiers can conduct open, free combat without the whole world bitching about it.
:cantbeli: Dude, c'mon man, you can't be serious...

It's partly true what he says. The world also bitch about Chechnya, especially human right groups, but at least here in the West, gotta admit Chechnya never made frontpage on the morning papers. Yet, Iraq did in the US, in Canada, in western Europe. The proportions of the diplomatic process that preceded the war, the opposition from Europe gave a higher profile to the war, and the result is that the Coalition is under close scrutiny. Casualty counts are monitored, abuses overexposed, to a point where the feeling that Iraq is a waste might cost a president his next elections. Was Putin's position ever threatened by body counts and abuse committed in Chechnya?

[Russian Texan]

There is not much on a news about Chechnya here because it is not a point of interest, hell, 99.999999% westerners wouldn't even be able to find it on the map.
It is a local conflict 10000 miles away that in no way affects an average american, briton or whoever...
In Russia and other former Soviet republics it is a different story: the media is all over war crimes, humanitarian crisis, refugees, fighting for the right cause and all that...


Seriously, consider it lucky the world doesnt care about that place
It's like WOW! And why is that, I mean why Russia is lucky?
What "the world" would or could possibly do about it, send UN peacekeepers or may be US can intervene and remove "Putin's regime" :D :D :D
Chechens would love that because they can get much bigger ransom for the american, german , british or other foringer than for a simple russian conscript from some remote village.
Personally, I'd love to see UN peacekeepers in Chechnya, civilized westerners vs barbaric warriors, oh, that would be something... :lol:

[Russian Texan]

Do you remember the sh*tstorm that followed two years ago when a US stray bomb hit a wedding in Afghanistan? Imagine if they the US levelled Bagdhad...
Imagine if Iraqis turned Bagdad into second Stalingrad, because that what Chechens done with Grozny, literally.
What would US forces do if they entered a city in which every basement was a fortified machine gun position, RPG would rain down on tanks by the thousands from highrises.
The difference is that Chechens were trained, prepared, willing and more than well eqiped to fight, while Iraqis simply gave up.

The Russian army may not go unbridled, but they still have the freedom to use artillery and aerial bombings liberally in an urban center, an option the US will never have.
So, hold on a second, US doesn't/didn't drop bombs in urban centers? I though I heard it on the news, just the other day, an airstrike was called in Falluja or some other Iraqi city, no?

It's partly true what he says. The world also bitch about Chechnya, especially human right groups, but at least here in the West, gotta admit Chechnya never made frontpage on the morning papers.
That's 'cause no one cares...

Yet, Iraq did in the US, in Canada, in western Europe. The proportions of the diplomatic process that preceded the war, the opposition from Europe gave a higher profile to the war, and the result is that the Coalition is under close scrutiny. Casualty counts are monitored, abuses overexposed, to a point where the feeling that Iraq is a waste might cost a president his next elections.
That is because Chechnya is a local/internal conflict, while OIF is an attack on a sovereign nation...

Was Putin's position ever threatened by body counts and abuse committed in Chechnya?
No, because he has complete support of his country, unlike Bush (50% at best)

[DE_Six]

Do you remember the sh*tstorm that followed two years ago when a US stray bomb hit a wedding in Afghanistan? Imagine if they the US levelled Bagdhad...
Imagine if Iraqis turned Bagdad into second Stalingrad, because that what Chechens done with Grozny, literally.
What would US forces do if they entered a city in which every basement was a fortified machine gun position, RPG would rain down on tanks by the thousands from highrises.
The difference is that Chechens were trained, prepared, willing and more than well eqiped to fight, while Iraqis simply gave up.

That is a big IF as far as I'm concerned. Initially, a strong urban warfare-type resistance was expected in Baghdad. All the military analysts were predicting an Iraqi Stalingrad, in fact (ironic, isn't it?). To counter this possibility, the US and British forces adopted a strategy based on small, fast units performing small raid-type incursions in Baghdad, while straight-up avoiding other major cities. Obviously, they were not intent on besieging the urban centers, had the Iraqi resistance been stiffer. However, I agree with you that the Iraqi didn't put up a fraction of the fight the Chechens did, no argument there.



The Russian army may not go unbridled, but they still have the freedom to use artillery and aerial bombings liberally in an urban center, an option the US will never have.
So, hold on a second, US doesn't/didn't drop bombs in urban centers? I though I heard it on the news, just the other day, an airstrike was called in Falluja or some other Iraqi city, no?

Yes, but those were precision strikes. Of course, they induced a limited number of collateral damage, but nothing on the scale of the devastation in Grozny. Note how I said "artillery and aerial bombing liberally"? ;)



It's partly true what he says. The world also bitch about Chechnya, especially human right groups, but at least here in the West, gotta admit Chechnya never made frontpage on the morning papers.
That's 'cause no one cares...


That's my whole point about scrutiny. The US are not as free to act as they please to the same extent as Russia, because the whole world cares about what happen in Iraq and many are those with an agenda who watch closely, awaiting a faux-pas that could be used against the US.


Yet, Iraq did in the US, in Canada, in western Europe. The proportions of the diplomatic process that preceded the war, the opposition from Europe gave a higher profile to the war, and the result is that the Coalition is under close scrutiny. Casualty counts are monitored, abuses overexposed, to a point where the feeling that Iraq is a waste might cost a president his next elections.
That is because Chechnya is a local/internal conflict, while OIF is an attack on a sovereign nation...


Very true, sadly. See my point above.



Was Putin's position ever threatened by body counts and abuse committed in Chechnya?
No, because he has complete support of his country, unlike Bush (50% at best)

My point again. Russia doesn't even have to thread lightly in fear of internal dissent. They can level a city, no one lifts an eyebrow, not the world, not the Russian people, no one.

[Helios X]

A little OT but if Chechen conflict happened early, say during the 70s or 80s, would the situation be the same or much different? And also did the Russian Air Force was played roles in Chechen conflicts or it had too many problems to be involved in?

[DE_Six]

Airpower was quite present, here's a good text about it. Well, it's really about airpower in LIC, but it uses Chechnya as case in point.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj97/win97/thomas.pdf

Also,

http://www.da.mod.uk/CSRC/documents/Russian/B59

[Russian Texan]

DE6, I see your points and I do agree.

[Kilgor]

What are the death tolls over the years in chechnya ?

It would be more than gw1 gw2 and the isl/pal crisis ?

We arent being critical of russia here, just the worlds press.
Ill say it again, just be lucky that you dont have all the worlds press running around the place making things extremely complicated ;)

[Russian Texan]

What are the death tolls over the years in chechnya ?
1st Chechen approx 5800 KIA
2nd Chechen approx 3100 KIA

It would be more than gw1 gw2 and the isl/pal crisis ?
Well, duh...for the reasons that were pointed in my previous posts

We arent being critical of russia here, just the worlds press.
Ill say it again, just be lucky
And I'll ask again - WHY?
that you dont have all the worlds press running around the place making things extremely complicated
Like how?
Let me repeat myself just in case you didn't get it first time:
What "the world" would or could possibly do about it, send UN peacekeepers or may be US can intervene and remove "Putin's regime"
Chechens would love that because they can get much bigger ransom for the american, german , british or other foringer than for a simple russian conscript from some remote village.
Personally, I'd love to see UN peacekeepers in Chechnya, civilized westerners vs barbaric warriors, oh, that would be something...

[Kilgor]

I thought the civilian death toll , was much much higher ?

Why?

Because people have forgotten what wars are all about. Collaterial damage, accidential civilian deaths, interrogation of prisioners the eventual death of your own soldiers and countrymen. All of its not pretty, and the media play it hard for their own ratings and headlines. People become revolted, it plays into politics and that eventually reduces the ability of armed forces to do their job.

I have no idea of what its like to be in conflict or in a war, but I know for a second that despite this modern age, geneva conventions and all the other "rules" that is ever gonna take the horror out of any type of conflict.

Like I said, what happens in chechnya is just the usual occurances of the horrid nature of conflict and war. Just be glad you dont have the world media around, making unrealistic expectations that everything will be short, clean, precise and totally lawful.

Vietnam was lost because of the power of media and politicians. War hasnt change, cameras and media just got alot better.

[Russian Texan]

I thought the civilian death toll , was much much higher ?
I thought you were talking about Russian military casualties. Civilian losses numbers are absolutely unreliable and conflicting, in short - I don't know.


Just be glad you dont have the world media around, making unrealistic expectations that everything will be short, clean, precise and totally lawful.
Ha, I wish you could read or understand russian, trust me "independent" Russian media is obsessed with the "humanitarian crisis" and is slinging dirt at the military on a daily basis.

Vietnam was lost because of the power of media and politicians. War hasnt change, cameras and media just got alot better.
True, sad but true...

[Kilgor]

ah... ok you probably do have your fair shair of internal critics..

But remember, when the US or Israel does something, the whole world screams about it.

[Operation Ivy]

Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?Urban warefare is a bitch but looking at Grozny I don't know if you can call that urban...Russians in Checnya is like Americans in Iraq...neither of us want to hear that we are not achieving our objectives and creating more problems.

Except the Chechens attacked Russia on Russia's land, while Iraq has never attacked America. Russia has an excuse, America has little excuse for invading Iraq except vague moral claims and social theories.

somebody needs a rimjob

[Russian Texan]

But remember, when the US or Israel does something, the whole world screams about it.

Thats 'cause they care too much...

[SeanAshi]

Russian criticism of Israel on the intifada and the US in Iraq...my point being is that Russia is not all innocent regarding the Russian Chechen war. The 3 nations fighting terrorism and taking international criticism for they way its being fought.

MOSCOW, Feb 17 /Prime-TASS/ -- The Russian armed forces in Chechnya lost 4,739 servicemen during its military operations in Chechnya in 2002, 13,108 were wounded and 29 are missing in action, ITAR-TASS said Monday, quoting the Northern Caucasus military district headquarters.

Out of the Defense Ministry's troops 2,752 died, 6,471 were wounded and 27 are missing in action. The headquarters did not issue any information regarding the rest of the casualties.

Colonel General Ivan Chizh who heads up the defense ministry's medical department, said that 1,257 servicemen from Chechnya are now in military hospitals, most of them wounded.

Analysts say that the real number of casualties in Chechnya is much higher than that usually presented by the government.
Any feedback on these numbers...?

[APOCALYPSE]

Analystis who say the losses are higher are LIERS you know how, because if they were (which they are not) the same Analysts who say they are HIGHER would give the real statistics.

[SeanAshi]

Analystis who say the losses are higher are LIERS you know how, because if they were (which they are not) the same Analysts who say they are HIGHER would give the real statistics.They not being pro-Russian or inmpartial makes them liers?

[The Clip]

I have been away for a couple of months testing some new equipment and improving my english. If you have any questions run them through me because the conflict is BS, We will not give up a Russian region not for anyone. American aid to Chechen rebels is common in first and second wars but now they have stopped! The rebels are good snipers and most of the time combat there is mostly with an invisible enemy, mostly you do not see them until a back up unit arrives and elimiates them. The total figure we talk about is 4612. Not tens of thousands because casualties never go that high anymore! Rebel casualties are in between 20 and 30 thousand. Still most battle we win some battles(very little) they win because of superior forces and well organised ambush. Those rebels get financed through international businesses and business men from other countries that is the only reason the was continued. Don't tell me America is doing well in Iraq, over 1000 casualties in 1 year sad but true. plus the fact that they are not being financed from abroad but businesses and businessmen. My entire squad came back unharmed apart from a small injury which happened during decent of a rockface. Mostly operations require going out and patroling a chosen area or simply peacekeeping in a town. The reason for difficulty is because Chechnya is filled with caves and gorges and all sorts of tough ground. A tough place to fight especially in winter!

[Abbyy]

I have been away for a couple of months testing some new equipment and improving my english. If you have any questions run them through me because the conflict is BS, We will not give up a Russian region not for anyone. American aid to Chechen rebels is common in first and second wars but now they have stopped! The rebels are good snipers and most of the time combat there is mostly with an invisible enemy, mostly you do not see them until a back up unit arrives and elimiates them. The total figure we talk about is 4612. Not tens of thousands because casualties never go that high anymore! Rebel casualties are in between 20 and 30 thousand. Still most battle we win some battles(very little) they win because of superior forces and well organised ambush. Those rebels get financed through international businesses and business men from other countries that is the only reason the was continued. Don't tell me America is doing well in Iraq, over 1000 casualties in 1 year sad but true. plus the fact that they are not being financed from abroad but businesses and businessmen. My entire squad came back unharmed apart from a small injury which happened during decent of a rockface. Mostly operations require going out and patroling a chosen area or simply peacekeeping in a town. The reason for difficulty is because Chechnya is filled with caves and gorges and all sorts of tough ground. A tough place to fight especially in winter!

It seems you forgot to send your credentials to 16 OBr SpN. Get lost!!!

[Abbyy]

What are the death tolls over the years in chechnya ?
1st Chechen approx 5800 KIA
2nd Chechen approx 3100 KIA


Last number is army losses only. At the end of 2002 total amount was about 4600 KIA.

I suppose it is already crossed margin of 500 long ago.

[Helios X]

Geez, will the Russian military ever be good as armies of Western world or will always be ****ty as it was in past history? BTW, why did we sent aid to Chechen terrorists, despite being terrorists and doing all kinds of bad things? I read an article last year, that a Chechen religious war wants the Chechens to declare jihad on Americans.

[Russian Texan]

Geez, will the Russian military ever be good as armies of Western world or will always be ****ty as it was in past history?


Occupation: Student
Interests: Too many to list

Student, I suggest you sign up for a world history class and may be include reading books in your "too many to list interests".

Are you really that poorly educated ot you are just trolling?

[aartamen]

Hey, aartamen, wazzup bitch :D

Basically what I am trying to say: F*** your momma, cracker!
P.S. and daddy too (in a sense f*** your daddy also)

you are not Russian,


I love you too.

My great-granddaddy was a cossack. I would not be mistaken for a Russian.

[Romulus]

somebody needs a rimjob

rofl

[aartamen]

It would be more than gw1 gw2 and the isl/pal crisis ?

Chechen civilian death toll is huge, and largely impossible to ascertain. Ten's of thousands is the number being talked about.

[aartamen]

Im sure American commanders would love to have the freedom of action russian ones do in their conflict.

I am not as sure about that one. It's got something to do with the sense of decency and humanity that most Americans possess. Especially the ones who dedicate their lives to serving a greater cause that themselves. As it is a huge number of servicemen require psychological decompression and intervention. I've seen numbers in double-digit percentiles. Imagine what would happen if they were to inflict and witness the devastation comparable to what happens in North Caucasus.

[aartamen]

Ha, I wish you could read or understand russian, trust me "independent" Russian media is obsessed with the "humanitarian crisis" and is slinging dirt at the military on a daily basis.



Most international autorities on the subject agree that there's no truly independent media left in Russia. The murder of Khlebnikov just underscored the point about the dangers of being a journalist in Russia today.

During the first Chechen conflict it was an owerwhelmingly bad and pro-Chechen press that made it very difficult to go on. Putin did not make that mistake. There's no discussion of Chechen conflict in Russian press. They had a Presidential election just now. It was not even debated.

[Russian Texan]

My great-granddaddy was a cossack. I would not be mistaken for a Russian.

Clearly there is nothing in you that could be traced back to him, cossaks had balls.

Yo mama so ugly when she joined an ugly contest, they said "Sorry, no professionals."

[Russian Texan]

Most international autorities on the subject agree that there's no truly independent media left in Russia. The murder of Khlebnikov just underscored the point about the dangers of being a journalist in Russia today.


Most international authorities, if not all of them, have no clue on what is going on in Russia and why, so cut the BS.

What in a world does Khlebnikov's murder has to do with the Chechen war?

There is no such thing as an "independent media", it is always dependent on whoever finances it.

[The Clip]

Abbyy shut you pig hole!!!! I already did that and it checked out fine! Helios X I can say even worse for the US military! ****ty as it is I want to stress that you blunder in Vietnam was good for the economy and the reputation of the Army! Afghanistan, we set up a communist government for 10 years until we decided whats the point and packed up and left! Until september 11th the US government supported Chechen rebels. With money and most importantly clothes an military equipment moved in from Georgia because you ****ers have base there. 1000+ casualties in Iraq and counting. LOL ****ty military you Americans rely to heavily on technology which gets people killed enemies and friendlys! **** heads! :bash: rofl :fork: :-*$

[Russian Texan]

Everyone, except Helios, please ignore what Clip is saying, Helios X you can flame with him sinse you are both appear to be on the same level of intelligence and education wise.

[The Clip]

Clearly there is nothing in you that could be traced back to him, cossaks had balls.

Yo mama so ugly when she joined an ugly contest, they said "Sorry, no professionals."[/quote]


rofl

[The Clip]

Everyone, except Helios, please ignore what Clip is saying, Helios X you can flame with him sinse you are both appear to be on the same level of intelligence and education wise.


intelligence your not getting the full picture! So your Russian and American, ok. Please don't talk to me about intelligence my IQ is 135 so **** you!

[aartamen]

Yo mama so ugly when she joined an ugly contest, they said "Sorry, no professionals."

You sound bitter. Was it something I said?

[aartamen]

Most international authorities, if not all of them, have no clue on what is going on in Russia and why, so cut the BS.



There's BS and there's the ultimate form of denial when people start saying that their country is unique and totally inscrutable by ages-proven anaylisis techniques. The US analysts have had always very good grip on what was going on in Russia and why. That's why Russia is in such a mess currently.

[Russian Texan]

intelligence your not getting the full picture! So your Russian and American, ok.

Not really, I am just Russian that loves Texas ;)

[Russian Texan]

The US analysts have had always very good grip on what was going on in Russia and why. That's why Russia is in such a mess currently.


rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Now that is some funny **** rofl rofl rofl rofl

No comments...

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

[aartamen]

Let me repeat myself just in case you didn't get it first time:
What "the world" would or could possibly do about it, send UN peacekeepers or may be US can intervene and remove "Putin's regime"


Even though it is neither possible nor even conceivable in todays immediate situation*, purely theoretically "the world" could do exactly what it did during 1979-88 - arm and support the insurgents to the tune of several billion dollars. The Turkey and S.A. would LOVE to be conduits for the money and volunteers once more. As it was, without any governmental support thousands of arab volunteers found their way into Chechnya. Even some Western Europeans and Americans did. Given the comparative economic strenghts of the S.U. and Russia, it would not even take as much money to achieve the same results.


*It would have been quite concievable if today was 1999.

[aartamen]

Now that is some funny **** rofl rofl rofl rofl



De Nile

[Russian Texan]

The Turkey and S.A. would LOVE to be conduits for the money and volunteers once more. As it was, without any governmental support thousands of arab volunteers found their way into Chechnya. Even some Western Europeans and Americans did. Given the comparative economic strenghts of the S.U. and Russia, it would not even take as much money to achieve the same results.

*It would have been quite concievable if today was 1999.

Let me update on a situation: all of the things you have mentioned DID happen during 2nd Chechen war, apparently didn't make a difference...
So what's your point?

Btw, supplying with whatever "rebels" in Chechnya is not exactly the same as supplying mujahadeen in Afghanistan, that would be in the geography 101 section...

[Russian Texan]

Now that is some funny **** rofl rofl rofl rofl



De Nile

US "intelligence services" are in De Nile and US foreign policy resides nearby ;)

[The Clip]

If the US did not supply the rebels for long then how do you explain the ****ty and most recognisable pattern of camoflauge on dead rebels and in their safe houses??? **** head! :bash: :fork: :-*$ rofl Most, rebels wear civilian clothes it is only the dumb ones which Mix winter and flora at night time. Any others which get killed easily from the support fire team with a KSVK. Getting back to the topic, The US is a capitalist pig which throws money and men at everything. Just look at your special forces, lol obese bunch of no nos!

[aartamen]

Let me update on a situation: all of the things you have mentioned DID happen during 2nd Chechen war, apparently didn't make a difference...
So what's your point?


First of, it probably did make a difference. It did not win the war for the Chechens, because it was not nearly at the level that was afforded to the mudjahedeen. Except may be the Saudis, and then nobody ever could prove anything, no rich foreign government aided the rebels. Geograpgically it was not difficult to move arms and volunteers into Chechnya while the Russians were not controlling the entry areas. And that held true for years. There were plenty of private donors, but they could not come anywhere close to what a well-run and financed insurrection support looks like. After all the Chechens were still only ex-Soviet soldiers and officers. They had a lot to learn, and nobody to teach it to them.

[aartamen]

US "intelligence services" are in De Nile and US foreign policy resides nearby ;)

Seeing how that policy turned the most dangerous opponent this country had ever had into a bunch of circus poodles prancing on their hind legs begging for table scraps, I think it was pretty effective and realistic.

Putin said that there might be a day when Russia will join NATO. The only other Russian leader who could potentially say that was Brezhnev and then only because he was senile.

[SeanAshi]

f*** have base there. 1000+ casualties in Iraq and counting. LOL ****ty military you Americans rely to heavily on technology which gets people killed enemies and friendlys!The Clip are you ****ting on the memory of the soldiers who have died in Iraq? ****ty military indeed thats why we are the only superpower in the world, Russia can't even pay the gas bill...go crawl back under that bottle of vodka.

[Helios X]

Geez, will the Russian military ever be good as armies of Western world or will always be ****ty as it was in past history?


Occupation: Student
Interests: Too many to list

Student, I suggest you sign up for a world history class and may be include reading books in your "too many to list interests".

Are you really that poorly educated ot you are just trolling?

1.I'm not trolling
2.I already took world history and i read a couple of history book several times.

[SeanAshi]

Does it even matter who's military is the best? Russians will say their military is the best, Americans will vouch for theirs and so on....Russians will point out Vietnam Iraq as failures..well you know the Russian military has it faults as well so don't act like the Russian military is perfect because its not.
f*** have base there. 1000+ casualties in Iraq and counting. LOL The Clip you wanker explain this retarded comment?

[Russian Texan]

Does it even matter who's military is the best? Russians will say their military is the best, Americans will vouch for theirs and so on


Ahhh, the voice of wisdom :)

[Russian Texan]

Seeing how that policy turned the most dangerous opponent this country had ever had into a bunch of circus poodles prancing on their hind legs begging for table scraps, I think it was pretty effective and realistic.
??????

Putin said that there might be a day when Russia will join NATO.
Yeah rrright...

Yo mama so stupid you have to dig for her IQ!

[RuSoKaR]

There should be an ignore list here so people will no waist their time talking to those, who don't really know what they are saying people.

[Helios X]

I'm sorry for the trouble i caused in thread.

[SeanAshi]

FIRST IN A SERIES
War Has No Rules for Russian Forces Battling Chechen Rebels

Troops admit committing atrocities against guerrillas and civilians. It's part of the military culture of impunity, they say. But many now have troubled consciences.

By MAURA REYNOLDS, Times Staff Writer

"I remember a Chechen female sniper. We just tore her apart with two armored personnel carriers, having tied her ankles with steel cables. There was a lot of blood, but the boys needed it."

MOSCOW--They call it bespredel--literally, "no limits." It means acting outside the rules, violently and with impunity. It translates as "excesses" or "atrocities."
It's the term Russian soldiers use to describe their actions in Chechnya.

YURI KOZYREV / For The Times

"Without bespredel, we'll get nowhere in Chechnya," a 21-year-old conscript explained. "We have to be cruel to them. Otherwise, we'll achieve nothing."
Since Russia launched a new war against separatist rebels in its republic of Chechnya a year ago, Russian and Western human rights organizations have collected thousands of pages of testimony from victims about human rights abuses committed by Russian servicemen against Chechen civilians and suspected rebel fighters.
To hear the other side of the story, a Times reporter traveled to more than half a dozen regions around Russia and interviewed more than two dozen Russian servicemen returning from the war front. What they recounted largely matches the picture painted in the human rights reports: The men freely acknowledge that acts considered war crimes under international law not only take place but are also commonplace.
In fact, most admitted committing such acts themselves--everything from looting to summary executions to torture.
"There was bespredel all the time," one 35-year-old soldier said. "You can't let it get to you."

The servicemen who discussed these issues with The Times did so on the condition that they not be identified. As a result, this report has omitted or changed their names and omitted their hometowns and the identity of their units.

"Your army is based on professionalism," said a 27-year-old
"What rules? What Geneva Conventions? What difference does it make if Russia has signed them?" said a 25-year-old army officer. "I didn't sign them, none of my friends signed them. . . . In Russia, these rules don't work."

[APOCALYPSE]

Which Time Mag article reported this what year and what was month? Thanks

[DE_Six]

September 2000. It's quite old but interesting, I've read it before.

http://www.calguard.ca.gov/ia/Chechnya/Chechnya%20-%20Russians%20LATimes1.htm

Also, worth checking out is the second part

http://www.calguard.ca.gov/ia/Chechnya/Chechnya%20-%20Grimmest%20Indus%20%20LATimes2.htm

[Sayeret]

I'm not sure of all the reasons but probably a big reason why Russia has had trouble defeating the Chechens is because they are using guerilla tactics and guerilla warfare can become an equalizer so that is why Russia is probably having trouble.

[SeanAshi]

I'm not sure of all the reasons but probably a big reason why Russia has had trouble defeating the Chechens is because they are using guerilla tactics and guerilla warfare can become an equalizer so that is why Russia is probably having trouble.Same trouble the US had in Vietnam.

[APOCALYPSE]

Wrong both Russia and America have antiguerilla tactics to take care of guerillas US spent 10 lost 58,000+ troops (and don't know the battle wonded ones though) but they ended up killing 3million north vietnamies, Russiaspent 9years in Afgainistan and lost under 15,000 soilders and under 36,000 wounded they(Russkis) ended up killing 1.3million afgainistanies so both Russia (I'm not saying this to be politicaly correct this is truth) and America didn't lose those wars militaraly but politicaly, I'm not sure on why U.S.A. pulled out of vietnam, but Russia pulled out simpley because they knew that under no secumstances could they "MENTALLY" make the Afgans acsept Socialism, so they pulled out.Russia did better in Afgan war than U.S. did in vietnam so no American can say Rus can't fight with tactics Russia's tactics have changed since ww2 no more human waves and the real reason Stalin ordered human wave atacks was (this may sound crazy but its 100% true and most of this info I found out is from "AMERICAN" authors) to sacrifice all those RussianOrthodox Christians to SATAN, communisim was a big Satanic plot to destroy and rebuild the whole world under a one world socialist order I have a book here with Karal Marxs prayers to Satan the book is called "Karal Marx a prophet of our times" written by a "Deirdre Manifold, get the book and read it and you'll see all that stuff Lennin and Stalin and Krushev said about being athiests was all a lie they were Satanists.

[DE_Six]

^

Dude...seriously, use punctuation, take the extra time. I can't decypher what you just said...

[Sayeret]

Both the US and Russia have counter-guerilla tactics but so does most countries but the problem isn't the tactics still don't allow you to win a war quickly which is what people want. The Chechens, Palestinians, Iraqis, and many other people are use guerilla and terrorist tactics since they are very hard to counter.

[Sergei]

Russian Texan, I just love your stamina in managing a communication with the dumb folks like aartamen and Helios X. I takes a lot of time and desire to communicate to such thick skulls. :D

[Sergei]

Dumb quote of the Day

Geez, will the Russian military ever be good as armies of Western world or will always be ****ty as it was in past history?

Are you da Fuhrer? He thought so too!
Russian army managed to kick everybody's ass with whom its fought so take a hike dumb student. Read some history books idiot. :bash:

[Abbyy]

Dumb quote of the Day

Geez, will the Russian military ever be good as armies of Western world or will always be ****ty as it was in past history?

Are you da Fuhrer? He thought so too!
Russian army managed to kick everybody's ass with whom its fought so take a hike dumb student. Read some history books idiot. :bash:

Mmmm... Poland? :)

[APOCALYPSE]

Don't waste your time Sergi these people will only learn when they get wipped in a head on conventional war with no hiding behind nuke as they are always saying about Russia, and whaen nato attacks Srbia again which there planning it Russia will show them, and they see Russia did it with out help from China, as many people belive that the next big military power is HAHAHAHA Russia has always been and always will be "THE MOST HARD CORE TOUGHER THAN TITAINIUM STEEL NAILS AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY :D

[Tom The Hunter]

I just have a question about the Chechnya. It seems that for some time Russian forces are fighting in Chechnya and there seems to be no end to it. Coming from a country that had a large number of conventional weaponry and mandatory military service it seemed impossible to win a “civil” war when basically everyone over 18 was a possible soldier. Are Russian forces implementing some special tactics or is this conflict just going to finish up with large number of casualties and nothing achieved?

There is very little to none understanding in the west about what is going on in Chechnya, it is being trivialized to the war for independence or "war on terror" depending on your political views and perception of the situation, WTF is "war on terror"?

Chechnya is a very, extremely complicated issue. Chechen conflict is not about independece, struggle for freedom, fight against terrorism or whatever, it is about money. It started because of money and it is going on because of money. War is a huge money making business and if it stops - lots of people in Russia will be very upset.
Russian soldiers and policemen are not fighting against Chechens, they are fightings against all odds, odds created by the corruption that infiltrated every aspect of the Russian society. The issue is extremely complicated and is a source for lots of lenghty discussions and arguements.
In short Russian soldiers were and still are, although on a lesser level because of Putin, being betrayed by their own generals and government.

Try to imagine situation when Iraqi insurgents spoke the same language as the US forces, were equiped with the latest and the best US armories had to offer, had full access to all of the radio com frequencies, were warned and given detailed information about all of the upcoming raids by the US forces, etc. - complete sell out...
Oh, one more thing: Chechens have also went through the soviet conscription system...



Add all those things up and you'll get a partial picture of what ****hole Chechnya is...

Frankly, I can't think of any other military, except Russian, that is capable of dealing with all that ****.

The most honest and true point of view I have ever seen about Chechen war!

[Kilgor]

Dumb quote of the Day

Geez, will the Russian military ever be good as armies of Western world or will always be ****ty as it was in past history?

Are you da Fuhrer? He thought so too!
Russian army managed to kick everybody's ass with whom its fought so take a hike dumb student. Read some history books idiot. :bash:

Like Finland ? :P

[Abbyy]

Dumb quote of the Day

Geez, will the Russian military ever be good as armies of Western world or will always be ****ty as it was in past history?

Are you da Fuhrer? He thought so too!
Russian army managed to kick everybody's ass with whom its fought so take a hike dumb student. Read some history books idiot. :bash:

Like Finland ? :P

Wrong. We won against Finland though it takes a long time (my respect to defenders). We passed Mannergeim line and it was only question of time to finish the job.

[Kilgor]

maybe you did win in the end.

But admit it, you got your arses booted by a much smaller well trained force , that were expert in winter warfare and skirmish combat.

Maybe some of the finnish people here could explain better, but it was a very difficult struggle for russia.

edit: reading up more about it now

It would be a "walk over;" General Meretskov estimated it would take only 10 to 12 days for his 26 well equipped 14,000 man divisions to reach Helsinki. Russian propaganda had been so convincing that it was felt that the Finns would be waving flags and welcoming the Red Army with open arms. Opposing him were nine poorly equipped 11,000-man Finnish divisions.

:lol:

[Abbyy]

Opposing him were nine poorly equipped 11,000-man Finnish divisions.

:lol:

+ Mannerheim line. This matters.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Dumb quote of the Day

Geez, will the Russian military ever be good as armies of Western world or will always be ****ty as it was in past history?

Are you da Fuhrer? He thought so too!
Russian army managed to kick everybody's ass with whom its fought so take a hike dumb student. Read some history books idiot. :bash:

Mmmm... Poland? :)

What "Poland"...?

Aahhh, yeah, we've kicked your asses in 1920 ;) :D

[Durandal]

Russian army managed to kick everybody's ass with whom its fought so take a hike dumb student. Read some history books idiot. :bash:

Oh yeah, the Russian Army kicked absolute ass in:

World War I

Or maybe...

The Russo-Japanese War

Or maybe something a bit more current...

Afghanistan.

It isn't too much a stretch to claim that Russian forces failed in the abortion that is Chechnya.

[RomanS]

Holly ****,
I just found this fukin thread.
Oh I'm so IN now, standing next to my Russian brothers.

Here is what I have to say.

Russian military will be in Chechnya untill we think is enough. Which is up to us Russians to decide.
NOBODY will do anything to stop us, do anything about or even try.

The world knows, mess with Russia and we change your history.

[Durandal]

rofl

[StukaJr]

It isn't too much a stretch to claim that Russian forces failed in the abortion that is Chechnya.


That's not logical, even in the least - if that statement is not a stretch, I don't know what is. Failure in term of Chechnya would be letting it slide back into the terrorists' hands like it happened in '96 - so far, that hasn't happened and will not happen again.

[Durandal]

That's not logical, even in the least - if that statement is not a stretch, I don't know what is. Failure in term of Chechnya would be letting it slide back into the terrorists' hands like it happened in '96 - so far, that hasn't happened and will not happen again.

Sorry, last time I checked Grozny was a sh*thole.

In fact, Russia did SO well, they came back a second time.

Way to go Russia!

Sh*tting on smaller nations and provinces since 1917!

rofl

[RomanS]

That's not logical, even in the least - if that statement is not a stretch, I don't know what is. Failure in term of Chechnya would be letting it slide back into the terrorists' hands like it happened in '96 - so far, that hasn't happened and will not happen again.

Sorry, last time I checked Grozny was a sh*thole.

In fact, Russia did SO well, they came back a second time.

Way to go Russia!

Sh*tting on smaller nations and provinces since 1917!

rofl

and nobody can do a damn thing about it. WAY TO GO RUSSIA

[StukaJr]

That's not logical, even in the least - if that statement is not a stretch, I don't know what is. Failure in term of Chechnya would be letting it slide back into the terrorists' hands like it happened in '96 - so far, that hasn't happened and will not happen again.

Sorry, last time I checked Grozny was a sh*thole.

In fact, Russia did SO well, they came back a second time.

Way to go Russia!

Sh*tting on smaller nations and provinces since 1917!

rofl

What are the alternatives? Let it become a terrorist camp, ala Georgia, and let other neighboring countries come under attacks/become yet another camp? 2nd war was instigated by terrorist acts in Moscow and military excursions into Inguchetia.

Grozny is being rebuilt and there are major plans to start rebuilding city's infrastructure in the very near future.

I'm somewhat taken back by you finding something amuzing in the events that take place in Chechnya - perhaps, you can stop farting near open flame, especially since you have nothing but misinformation/old information about the region. These topics have been discussed to death and I don't quite get how the same sh*t misinformation keeps on popping up - spreading the same bullsh*t about Iraq would get one banned

[Durandal]

I'm somewhat taken back by you finding something amuzing in the events that take place in Chechnya - perhaps, you can stop farting near open flame, especially since you have nothing but misinformation/old information about the region.

What I find amusing is bravado laid on by a bunch of Russian 20 somethings.

I find little in Chechnya amusing...on either side of the conflict or the civilians caught in between. In fact quite the opposite.

[APOCALYPSE]

You just proved that Russia is tough all you said was Russia had 11,000 troops and Finland had 99,000 troops so ofcourse Russia lost you didn't PROVE anything if you stated Russia had 11,000 troops AND Finland had 11,000 troops and Finland won then you proved your point Russia is just a big dumb country that can't fight but picks on smaller countries, but that's NOT what happend so you lost the Finlan beet up Rus arguement, ww1 even the Eretrians have found the archive and read that most of The Tzar's generals were communist sypathizers and the allowed Russia to lose so that the Russia's will listen to the Revolutionaries to overthrow the Tzar. Did you say Afgainistan how many times do I have to prove you donno ANYTHING you say, Rus lost just under 15,000 and just under 36,000 wounded, in 9 years of fighting they killed 1.3 million they beet up those Afghans baddly why did us have to "AID" them if Rus wasn't supirior hu? whats your answer on that one prove they didn't kill 1.3 million , U.S. fought in Vietnam 10 years and 58,000 dead, (we don't even need to know the battle wonded now that it has totaly surpassed Russia's Afgahs losses don't give me that) well if thats the case us is the weaker one prove me wrong buddy please gotta hear dis one.

[StukaJr]

I'm somewhat taken back by you finding something amuzing in the events that take place in Chechnya - perhaps, you can stop farting near open flame, especially since you have nothing but misinformation/old information about the region.

What I find amusing is bravado laid on by a bunch of Russian 20 somethings.

I find little in Chechnya amusing...on either side of the conflict or the civilians caught in between. In fact quite the opposite.

Then perhaps you should state your case as such - all I see are a bunch of smileys next to innacurate portrayal of political/military events - not everybody can see that clearely through flamebait.

As for 20 somethings - it's sh*t like this that drives everybody with experience worth the post, off this board. What goes around, comes around

[Durandal]

Then perhaps you should state your case as such

I did. p-)

[R935]

Don't waste your time Sergi these people will only learn when they get wipped in a head on conventional war with no hiding behind nuke as they are always saying about Russia, and whaen nato attacks Srbia again which there planning it Russia will show them, and they see Russia did it with out help from China, as many people belive that the next big military power is HAHAHAHA Russia has always been and always will be "THE MOST HARD CORE TOUGHER THAN TITAINIUM STEEL NAILS AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY :D

And who exactly will Russia help? Please don't be blinded by your patriotism and perhaps even nationalism! Russian politicians will sell their own mother for a dozen $$$. They did it before and there is no reason not to do it again.I give a huge respect to Russian people but for a nation that is so reach with natural resources and yet imports grain from Canada- makes you wonder what's happening there. Serbian people ( if i read your article correct) are better off to leave the Russia behind and turn to EU.

Regards
R935

[APOCALYPSE]

Eu is not saying nato was wrong are they? theres your answer they are the enemies of Srbia, most of Rus's enemies have said that in the past and they were destroyed remember the leadres who chalenged Rus had thier media/presses saying same thing AND they were all destroyed with their socalled more powerful army than RUSSIAN rofl rofl rofl rofl

[Abbyy]

Durandal

You know it is very unusual to see someone except Polish and other european "human rights" defenders and some rednecks in threads about Chechnya. You're welcome :)

Peronally for you some photos from Chechnya dated by 2004 :)

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d199/331.JPG


CHECHNYA, RUSSIA. JULY 20. Acting President of Chechnya Sergei Abramov (L) and Chairman of the Audit Chamber Sergei Stepashin (R) during conference of Chechen government.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d198/538.JPG


CHECHNYA, RUSSIA. JULY 9. Sergei Abramov (in pic, left) visits a vinery owned by state enterprise "Avangard" in the village of Kalinovskaya.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d197/935.JPG


GROZNY,RUSSIA . JULY 2. Chechen Interior Minister Ali Alkhanov, a leader of the regional branch of the "United Russia" party Lecha Magomadov and chairman of the republican council of labour veterans Magomed Shuirbiyev (L-R) at the meeting of the Chechen public, on July 1,2004

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d197/114.JPG


CHECHNYA,RUSSIA. JUNE 24. Chief of the Chechen State Council Taus Dzhabrailov (2nd L) and Chechen Minister of Interior Alu Alkhanov (C) head to the Chechen Electoral Committee Alu Alkhanov declared that he will participate in the Chechen Presidency as a candidate.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d195/407.JPG
http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d195/409.JPG

CHECHNYA, RUSSIA. JUNE 4. A public rally in support of the Chechen authorities and the demand to stick to a political course of President of the Chechen Republic Akhmat Kadyrov, killed in a terror act on May 9, was held in Grozny.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d194/923.JPG


MOSCOW, RUSSIA. MAY 29. President of the Plaza Group Umar Dzhabrailov (left), First Vice Premier of Chechnya Ramzan Kadyrov (centre), acting President of Chechnya Sergei Abramov celebrate the win of "Terek" (Grozny) football team at the Russian Football Cup, as the final match vs "Krylya Sovetov" (Samara) ended with the score 1:0.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d193/596.JPG


CHECHNYA, RUSSIA. MAY 13. A combine operator of the state farm "Melchikhinsky" of Gudermes region seen in the fields where the farmers planted with grain-crops and sugar-beet about 1400 hectares.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d193/384.JPG


CHECHNYA, RUSSIA. MAY 10. WWII veterans carrying wreaths during a ceremony of laying flowers at the Memorial to Chechen servicemen perished in the Great Patriotic War and also at a new Memorial to Chechens lost in Afghanistan, in Gudermes

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d193/358.JPG


CHECHNYA,RUSSIA. MAY 10. Picture shows a worker operating in a shop of the "Transmash" plant that resumed manufacturing tractor-trailers in Grozny ,the capital of Chechnya.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d192/161.JPG

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d192/164.JPG

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d192/165.JPG

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d192/166.JPG

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d187/425.JPG


CHECHNYA,RUSSIA. FEBRUARY 23. Servicemen of a special police unit from Moscow patrol a market in Grozny.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d187/426.JPG


CHECHNYA,RUSSIA. FEBRUARY 23. Commander of a special police unit from Moscow Vsevolod Ovsyannikov (R) talks with refugees in Grozny.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d183/572.JPG


CHECHNYA, RUSSIA. DECEMBER 23. The city's main Christmas tree being installed in the centre of Grozny.

[Russian Texan]

Oh yeah, the Russian Army kicked absolute ass in:

World War I
????
In case you didn't know since 1905 Russia was preoccupied with Revolution, no one, except monarchy, cared/wanted to fight in that war. Dessertions were massive, on a "grande scale"... Actually, largely because of this highly unpopular war bolsheviks were able to come to power.Or maybe...

The Russo-Japanese War
I thought it was a series of naval battles for the remote port Arthur. Russian navy base and forces in the area simply had no supplies to fight with, because there was no way to deliver them, that was before Trans-Siberian Railroad. Once the railroad was in place, it was a different ball game (1939 and 1945).
Although I think it was one of the finest moments in the Russian Naval history: During the Russo-Japanese war of 1904-1905, Varyag accepted a badly uneven battle with a Japanese squadron in the Tsushima Strait on February 9th, 1904. When outmanned and outgunned, the crew decided not to surrender, but to sink the ship and die.
Any stories like this in your country's navy history?



Or maybe something a bit more current...

Afghanistan.
A big, costly mistake, USSR should have never engaged into civilizing a barbaric (I am not using this term as a derrogatory but rather as a descriptive) nation. But of course, if you's like to compare *****es - talk to me in 10 years of US forces control/presence in all of the 357 (I believe thats the number) major population centers in Afghanistan.
An interesting fact: in its first year US has lost more man over there than USSR. I believe that if it was the other way around you'd say:"inferrior training, equipment, etc..." What should I say?

It isn't too much a stretch to claim that Russian forces failed in the abortion that is Chechnya.
Why is that? Did the region become vahhabit enclave - no, so how is that a failure?

Look at the map, which is the largest and richest, natural resourses wise, country in the world? Right - Russia... You know why - because of its military strength.
For a thousand years Russian sorldier was under equiped, uner fed, etc but it always managed to prevailed over better suplied and nourished opponents and I have no reason to doubt that it will ever change, that is called "character".
You can talk smack all you want, but the fact remains - Russia won numerous wars and conflicts: mongol hordes, knights, french, japanese, turks, polish, germans, swedes, etc, etc, etc...
It all amounts to a proven "track record", now lets look at the US military - looks good, it sure does have the appearance, but does it have the substance? US military has never played in the super bowl - an all out war for the survival of the country/nation/ethnicity (Scrimadge for Independence doesn't count) , Russian did and won multiple times, and that's the bottom line...

[Kilgor]

again.... look at Finland, it was disaster for russia.

[2RHPZ]

Terror and Equity in Russia and America

Robert Bruce Ware

Consider this scenario: a powerful country – call it country A – is suddenly attacked by terrorists. Innocent civilians are murdered. The attackers come from training camps in country B. The leader of country A offers to negotiate with the government of country B on three conditions: first, the leaders of B must disavow terrorism; second, they must close terrorist training camps in their country; third, they must extradite the leaders of the attack. The government of country B refuses the offer. Country A declares the government of country B a terrorist organization and attacks.

Sound familiar? This is what happened in the last days of September 2001 as President Bush called upon Taliban leaders to sever ties with al Qaeda and extradite its leaders to the United States. The war in Afghanistan occurred because Afghan leaders declined to treat the 9/11 attacks in criminal terms and to negotiate the extradition of al Qaeda leaders.

But this is also what happened in the last days of September 1999, when Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov declined the offer of Vladimir Putin, then Russian Prime Minister, to negotiate following the invasions of Dagestan. Dagestan is the Russian republic wedged between Chechnya and the Caspian Sea. On August 2, 1999, and again on September 5, 1999, Dagestan was invaded by about 2,000 militants who were based in al Qaeda-supported camps in Chechnya. The invaders murdered dozens of civilians, and displaced 32,000 people. Though 90 percent of Dagestanis are Muslim, they wanted nothing to do with the radical fundamentalism of the invaders. They organized citizen militias, fought back, and appealed for support from Russian federal troops. On September 29, Putin offered to negotiate with Maskhadov and his government on essentially the same terms that President Bush offered to negotiate with the Taliban government two years later. When Maskhadov refused, Russia did in Chechnya what America did in Afghanistan. It invaded.

Now consider this scenario: after a murderous terrorist attack on country A, and after the leadership of country B refuses country A’s offer to negotiate the problem in criminal terms, country A attacks country B. Throughout most of the world, public opinion is hostile towards whom? Country A or country B? The United States was fortunate in that most of the world supported its invasion of Afghanistan. By contrast, world opinion turned fiercely against Russia as soon as it invaded Chechnya in 1999.

In both Chechnya and Afghanistan, early military victories by both Russia and the United States gave way to a stubborn guerilla resistance, punctuated by terrorist attacks. Human rights violations occurred, and prisoners were systematically abused. In Chechnya, abuses were much worse.

Now consider this scenario: a leading member of the Taliban is found in a country, such as Pakistan, where he is vociferously defending Taliban policies. American officials seek his extradition. The Taliban leader appeals for asylum. Taliban supporters in Pakistan defend the Taliban leader, organizing a popular campaign that plays upon anti-American prejudices. The Pakistani government caves in and grants asylum to the Taliban leader. They justify it by pointing to prisoner abuse by Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq, along with America’s policy of systematic abuse for al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners, arguing that a Taliban leader would not receive due process in the United States.

Of course, this scenario is not occurring in Pakistan. It is occurring in America. Illyas Akhmadov was the foreign minister of Chechnya during the invasion of Dagestan. Like the Taliban, his government did not support those attacks publicly, but neither did they repudiate them nor seek to prevent them while they were in progress. Afterwards, when they were given the opportunity to avoid war and to negotiate the matter in criminal terms by condemning terrorism, closing terrorist bases and extraditing terrorist leaders, they refused. Hence, Russia declared the Chechen government a terrorist organization, just as America declared the Taliban government a terrorist organization.

Mr. Akhmadov is now in America, where he has been defending claims of the Chechen government and where he has applied for asylum. A Boston immigration judge granted asylum on the ground that he would not receive due process in Russia. The Department of Homeland Security is appealing the decision, arguing that Mr. Akhmadov should not receive American asylum because he has been connected with terrorism. Perhaps the DHS is motivated by concern that Mr. Akhmadov’s presence could make it all the more difficult for America to justify the extradition of al Qaeda and Taliban leaders from other countries.

What is to be done? First, the same standards must be applied to the judgment of Russia, America and their respective adversaries. If the government of Afghanistan was wrong to harbor terrorists, then the government of Chechnya was also wrong. And if Americans wish to condemn failures of due process in other systems, then they must also look to their own. Second, we must maintain standards of due process because any individual case is subtle and complex. Therefore, it must be left to an appellate judge to determine if Mr. Akhmadov receives American asylum. At a minimum, Mr. Akhmadov should now do what he failed to do in September 1999: renounce any connection to the Chechen government and firmly repudiate terrorism.



Robert Bruce Ware is an associate professor at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville and is a specialist on the Caucasus.

Source (http://www.inthenationalinterest.com/Articles/Vol3Issue28/Vol3Issue28Ware.html)

There is an interesting implication in it if you want to run the Chechnyan situation in analogy with Afghanistan. In Afghanistan the coalition is setting up a democratic government and is then planning on leaving...

[hank]

an all out war for the survival of the country/nation/ethnicity (Scrimadge for Independence doesn't count) , Russian did and won multiple times, and that's the bottom line...

Well in the 1860's we had a little thing over on this side of the pond called the Civil War. Brother fighting brother about somebody trying to split off about half of the US and start another country called the CSA. I think that counts as a war for the survival of the United States.

Why are you always so derogatory about the US? You chose to live here. I mean, you are worse than derogatory, you are downright insulting. You slander everything we do, everything we have accomplished, and everything we try to accomplish. Yet, you live here freely expressing views that make a lot of us want to vomit. Just think about it and ask yourself if you really feel this way about the US and if you do then why do you stay?

hank

[APOCALYPSE]

hdhdhdhdhdh i belive history CLEARLY shows it was / is US who started and is continuing the slandering of Russia and U.S.A. is NOT A Democracy the founders of this Country created a Constitutional REPUBLIC!! learn that MY fellow AMERICAN?

[Abbyy]

hdhdhdhdhdh i belive history CLEARLY shows it was / is US who started and is continuing the slandering of Russia and U.S.A. is NOT A Democracy the founders of this Country created a Constitutional REPUBLIC!! learn that MY fellow AMERICAN?

Get lost man.

[APOCALYPSE]

HAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH HIT A NERVE!! HU HHHHHHHHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH YOU KNOW IT HOME BOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!

[Sergei]

again.... look at Finland, it was disaster for russia.

Where do you see a disaster? The fact that the city Viipuri is called Vyborg now tells you something?

[Abbyy]

again.... look at Finland, it was disaster for russia.

Where do you see a disaster? The fact that the city Viipuri is called Vyborg now tells you something?

We already discussed Finland issue with Scandinavian folks a lot.
They fought good but we won. Point.

Losses in this war wasn't great blow to Soviet army though they was big.

So better to stop now.

[Sergei]

Russian army managed to kick everybody's ass with whom its fought so take a hike dumb student. Read some history books idiot. :bash:

Oh yeah, the Russian Army kicked absolute ass in:

World War I

Or maybe...

The Russo-Japanese War

Or maybe something a bit more current...

Afghanistan.

It isn't too much a stretch to claim that Russian forces failed in the abortion that is Chechnya.

Now let's be consistent here, Durandal, shall we?

Russo-Japanese War - 1905, major changes in Russia, first revolution, nobody is willing to fight that war.
The same goes for WW1, this is the reason how bolsheviks got into power in Russia, the dumb tsar just decided to involve Russia into a world war it had nothing to gain from.

Afganistan - pure political decision to withdraw troops, the fact that the Soviet 40th Army was beating the living crap out of mujahedeen on a daily basis just doesn't cut with you, does it?
Now tell me about american success in Afganistan? We don't hear much lately. Oh, yes, I forgot, they control only Kabul and Bagram airbase and they don't show their faces outside the base perimeter, while the Soviet Union controlled all the major cities and provinces in Afganistan with the force of a little bit over 100,000 troops. Come back to me in say 10 years and tell me about successes of western armies in Afganistan, also don't forget the bodycount figures too.

[hank]

Russian Texan wrote:


An interesting fact: in its first year US has lost more man over there [in Afghanistan] than USSR. I believe that if it was the other way around you'd say:"inferrior training, equipment, etc..." What should I say?

I must say that I had no idea if this was true when I read it, but it was such a bold assertion that I wondered enough to dig a little. Here is what I found. Before anybody gets their panties in a bunch, I doubt the accuracy of these numbers even as I post them. There is not a lot of information about Soviet casualties in Astan from 1979 until they pulled out. So, don't go crazy. If something is obviously wrong just point it out and give me another source to look up. I DO NOT WARRANT these results, they are simply what I found tonight in searches.


December 24 Russian soldiers begin to move into Afghanistan and secure airports and an attack on Darulaman the presidential Palace.


USSR completed its invasion of Afghanistan very quickly at the end of 1979 and lost 86 dead in total that year. This can be seen as the equivalent of the period of ‘major combat operations’ that cost the Coalition 170 troops killed and were declared as being over by President Bush on May 1, 2003.
In 1980 the USSR suffered 1,484 dead (both combat and non-combat deaths included), while the first year of occupation of Iraq (May 2003 to April 2004) cost the Coalition 697 killed (not including allied Iraqi’s – the Soviet figures also do not include allied Afghans). This means that the Soviet Union suffered just over 2 times the casualties in its first year of occupation of Afghanistan as the Coalition suffered in the first year of occupation of Iraq.
The worst year for the USSR in terms of deaths was 1984. During that year the Soviet Forces suffered 2,343 dead – just over 3 times the number that the Coalition has suffered in its first year of occupation of Iraq.
In total the USSR lost 13,833 soldiers during 10 years of occupation of Afghanistan the peak strength of Soviet Forces in Afghanistan was about 100,000 troops (compared to 150,000-160,000 Coalition troops currently in Iraq). That is an average death of 1,383 soldiers per year for Soviet forces – less than 2 times the loss of Coalition troops in the first year.

I cannot vouch for the numbers in this narrative. If you have more accurate numbers, then please post them. I know that USSR casualty figures from Astan were secretive, but I mean I got goose eggs for a long time looking. Anyway, these are the only ones I found and I looked quite a bit. They do seem reasonable though because all estimtes run around 12,000 to 15,000 lost by USSR in Astan. Over the whole time that woudl be about 1300 a year and the fighting in the beginning would probably be as tough as any. Again, if this is mistaken correct the error with facts.

From this, it appears that USSR lost around 1400 men in 1980. Seeing as how they invaded in December, 1979, and lost 86 in that year, it looks to me like USSR lost around 1550 from December, 1979 until the end of 1980, a little more than a year, but close.

Now, we sent our first combat troops to Astan in October, 2001. AP recently reported that the 100th US casualty in Astan occurred on Jan 12, 2004. So, from October, 2001 until Jan, 2004 we lost 100 in Astan.

Everybody with me so far? If these numbers are correct, and I'm not sure they are, then USSR lost 1550 in a little more than a year in Astan and we lost 100 in about 2 years and 3-odd months we lost 100. That does not wash with your statement.

Do you want to provide some numbers to back your contention? If my numbers are incorrect please excuse my error. I have no doubts that you will have access to more accurate information. All I ask is that you post factual information with source. As for my sources they are globalsecurity and google searches. Certainly not anything I'd want to swear to.

Before you respond, think about this first. I'm not being derogatory about USSR soldiers in Astan. I'm not saying anything about their training or equipment. I am merely trying to sort through the facts in your assertions to ferret out reality. So don't read anything into it other than objectively verifiable information. It makes me no difference one way or another. As far as I'm concerned, we'd be better off if none had died and I don't want anyone to think that I am dishonoring our boys or yours by counting the numbers. Just help me understand why a roughly 30-45 minute search of the internet so easily refutes a purely factual claim you made.

Ok, now have at it.

hank

[Durandal]

The Russo-Japanese War
I thought it was a series of naval battles for the remote port Arthur. Russian navy base and forces in the area simply had no supplies to fight with, because there was no way to deliver them, that was before Trans-Siberian Railroad. Once the railroad was in place, it was a different ball game (1939 and 1945).

Read a book. There were several land battles one of which was Shenyang (Feb.–Mar., 1905) in addition to Port Arthur. Parts of CHina and North Korea were under contention.


I think it was one of the finest moments in the Russian Naval history.

Man, talking about rewriting history. A) I completely ignored this since we were talking about land battles and B) Russia got their asses handed to them on a plate regardless of how "gallant" their men were, getting your ass kicked is STILL getting your ass kicked. The destruction of fleet (because that is what happened) is NOT a victory.


f you's like to compare *****es

I did no such thing. in fact, I made no comparisons to my nation or any other nation's past military experience. So rather than throw out some straw man argument. keep it on topic. If you want to talk about other nations, or compare them to Russian experiences then start a new thread. Unlike you, I will admit my nation's failures.


For a thousand years Russian sorldier was under equiped...

Wait, I get to go back that far?


You can talk smack all you want, but the fact remains - Russia won numerous wars and conflicts: mongol hordes, knights, french, japanese, turks, polish, germans, swedes, etc, etc, etc...

The Mongols owned Russia...

Genghis died in 1227, and two years elapsed before his son Ögödei was enthroned as the Great Khan. The Mongols pursued their military campaigns throughout Ögödei's reign, and their empire expanded even more dramatically. A large expedition overwhelmed the Russian states, reaching Kiev in 1240 and venturing into Poland and Hungary in 1241.

Then there was The Crimean War:1853-1856 were a good chunk of Europe had to force policy (or at least that is what it turned into).

The point is, Russia has won lots of conflicts, some of them at a HORRIBLE cost. Russia has also lost its fair share of conflicts.

This is not a testosterone fight. It is simple history.

If you want to talk about the United States. Cool. We certainly lost our share. Britain? Same goes for them. I have not said otherwise.

[Beowulf]

Now tell me about american success in Afganistan? We don't hear much lately. Oh, yes, I forgot, they control only Kabul and Bagram airbase and they don't show their faces outside the base perimeter, while the Soviet Union controlled all the major cities and provinces in Afganistan with the force of a little bit over 100,000 troops


awwww hell no. Keep your man-pleasers off the keyboard if you are gonna just make **** up.

[hank]

Now tell me about american success in Afganistan? We don't hear much lately. Oh, yes, I forgot, they control only Kabul and Bagram airbase and they don't show their faces outside the base perimeter, while the Soviet Union controlled all the major cities and provinces in Afganistan with the force of a little bit over 100,000 troops


awwww hell no. Keep your man-pleasers off the keyboard if you are gonna just make **** up.

Like 2 short used to say, everyday its the same, its the saem everyday. I think he is just a pathological liar. Plus he would argue about the lenght of a day or the number of days in a week. He'll wait a while though before he pops up b/c he's been called out a lot lately.

Fun, ain't it.

hank

[Durandal]

Now let's be consistent here, Durandal, shall

I have been. I have yet to pick a conflict that I think Russia/USSR has won.


I mean, using your silly "political decision" argument will allow me to claim Vietnam was a victory. Which, quite obviously it was not.

The absurdity to somehow disassociate Russia failures because of political nightmares, civil wars, and political upheaval is preposterous.

Regardless of the reasons, Russia lost these conflicts. Russia/USSR had a goal upon entering into the conflict and that goal was not met.

If anything, I have been the most consistent contribute to this discussion.

[APOCALYPSE]

Russia lost 1905 war and semi lost ww1 not that much crimea ya but the ww2 korea rus kiked us airforce up and down wait I'll give you the us airforces own admition of this Rus did better in Afgan than us in Nam and iraq us lost 2500 soildersNOT THIS 1000 EVERY TIME WE SEE ONE SOILDER SHOT TWO SHOT OH NO GET EUROPEAN NEWS CHANNELS ON THE RADIO YOU'LL BE SHOCKED EEVEY DAY FOR THE LAST 9 MONTHS FROM MARCH 2003 TO DEC 2003 U.S. lost 20-50 soilders daily no 1 down here and one wounded there, that all fairy tails fantasy stuff the gov knows Americans will belive, so they tell Americans that threw c.n.n thats why their always haveing BIG not little rotations,the Republican gaurd is about to unleash nostop counter offensives in iraq Rus specops gave them micro nukes look at the craters that those supposed 1000lb. CAR bombs cause thats car bombs don't even come close to making those type of craters go back and look at it carfully and ask an explosive exp he might not tell you it's micronukes from Rus but he will tell you there's no way a 1000 pound car bomb can make 6-15 meter holes in the ground ,you thought they were scared of us no way there just going to wait and fight in an asemetrical way they calculated perfectly wait till paul leaves then strike over and over again thats what Russian Spetznas addviced Iraqi specops THE MAIN RESON FOR DRAFT IS TO TRULY PACIFY IRAQ, WHY DID REPUB GUARD WAIT TILL pAUL LEAVE CUZ THEY KNOW US CANT HANDDLE IRAQ WITH 138,000 TROOPS SO AFTR HE LEAVES STRIKE AND AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL NOT WANT TO SEND MORE TROOPS AND THEY WILL FORCES BUSH TO PULL TROOPS OUT THE FIRST HINT BUSH SAYS WE NEED ANOTHER 10-20,000 MORE THATS WHY THEY CHOSE TO WAIT THIS LONG.

[Durandal]

Stay on topic man and learn to construct complete sentences and entire words.

No one can understand you.

[hank]

Is anybody going to help call out RussianTexan's bullshyt?

Am I right about this?

Durandal or Zapp, help a brother out?

hank

[Durandal]

Is anybody going to help call out RussianTexan's bullshyt?

Am I right about this?

Durandal or Zapp, help a brother out?

hank

I did. My response is above on this page. For some reason he needs to compare the United States with the Russia. Not too sure why. I never once said anyone was better than the other. Russia has lost wars and military campaigns, period. Regardless of the reason. He spouts a lot of nationalism in his posts so my response is rare since I normally tend to ignore his stuff. His reply, however, was wrong regarding facts and directed at me so I replied.

;)

[Durandal]

Hank

Two other things are also overlooked when we look at Russian military campaigns. The cost and the end result. Winning the conflict at what cost?

For example.

A little known campaign was fought in 1839 called the Russo-Khivan War. Ultimately the Russian won the conflict but at a horrible rate of casualties.

They kicked ass in World War II, but the cost in lives was amazing. When you considered they, in a couple instances, herded asiatic-russians through hi-density minefields in front of tanks you have to wonder at the cost. Sure they won the war, but the cost in humanity both in terms of numbers and the moral concept was huge. In many ways, they were no different than the people they were fighting.

Then there is the outcome. Several Russo-Turkish wars were fought and won by the Russians. A couple of the conflicts were forced to treaty by the Austrians who negotiated quite well either during the actual treaty or following it in an independent treaty. In several cases the Russians lost land , trade rights, etc in these treaties, even though they were the conflict winners.

This of course is not something special that happens to ONLY Russia, but it is a valid point. Military victories are not necessarily overall victories.

We can also look at how a region was benefited by the Russian possession following invasion.

Eastern Europe, as a whole suffered under Soviet victory. One can look at the disparity in development between West and East to see that. Eastern Europe is playing catch up following the Soviet withdraw. Afghanistan, though not the hotbed of democracy, was MUCH better off before Soviet invasion. Standard of living and education was higher, freedoms of women were better, the infrastructure on a whole was better. In came the Soviets and destroyed it. Today, we can attribute MUCH of A-stan's problems with the Soviet invasion.

Were they victories? Militarily, maybe. The invasion of Europe to defeat the Germans certainly was. To control all of Europe eventually and force the Americans out? Nope. That failed.

For all its "military greatness" Russian does well inside the confines of its political borders, but outside of it...it is hated and becomes the enemy rather than the liberator.

The point of the whole conversation is that Russia has lost wars, whether they like to admit it or not. Even great wars, like the Great Northern War, fought against the Swedes was a minor victory at best. The Swedes made the mistake of invading central Russia to take Moscow and the Russians fought the Swedes with the help from the Danes and the Saxons. The war went on for a dozen years with the Swedes spending more time in Russian than the reverse at an absolutely HORRIBLE price to the Russians. Yeah, the Russians won, they got some land from Sweden and that was about it.

So who knows. Russian military history is colorful and exciting. The Russians have won more than they have lost, but the Russian people and those in occupied lands have suffered those victories greatly.

[hank]

Is anybody going to help call out RussianTexan's bullshyt?

Am I right about this?

Durandal or Zapp, help a brother out?

hank

I did. My response is above on this page. For some reason he needs to compare the United States with the Russia. Not too sure why. I never once said anyone was better than the other. Russia has lost wars and military campaigns, period. Regardless of the reason. He spouts a lot of nationalism in his posts so my response is rare since I normally tend to ignore his stuff. His reply, however, was wrong regarding facts and directed at me so I replied.

;)

Thanks, you are doing the Lion's share. I was referring to the fatalities in the first year of Soviet/Astan conflict v. US action in Astan. He claimed we lost more soldiers in combat in Astan in year 1 than Soviets did on year 1. I don't think that is even close to being accurate. Is it? My numbers are above.

hank

[16 OBr SpN]

Is anybody going to help call out RussianTexan's bullshyt?

Am I right about this?

Durandal or Zapp, help a brother out?

hank

I did. My response is above on this page. For some reason he needs to compare the United States with the Russia. Not too sure why. I never once said anyone was better than the other. Russia has lost wars and military campaigns, period. Regardless of the reason. He spouts a lot of nationalism in his posts so my response is rare since I normally tend to ignore his stuff. His reply, however, was wrong regarding facts and directed at me so I replied.

;)

Thanks, you are doing the Lion's share. I was referring to the fatalities in the first year of Soviet/Astan conflict v. US action in Astan. He claimed we lost more soldiers in combat in Astan in year 1 than Soviets did on year 1. I don't think that is even close to being accurate. Is it? My numbers are above.

hank

Comparing these numbers or operations overall is absolutely pointless. Two operations took part in absolutely different times, under different circumstances, both military and geopolitical. Do you agree?

The only common ground of both missions is the geographical location. Besides, I'm stating my opinion based on my presence there for almost 6 years during the conflict.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[hank]

Comparing these numbers or operations overall is absolutely pointless. Two operations took part in absolutely different times, under different circumstances, both military and geopolitical. Do you agree?

The only common ground of both missions is the geographical location. Besides, I'm stating my opinion based on my presence there for almost 6 years during the conflict.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

I agree 100%. That was in fact exactly my point.

Even if the casualty figure comparisons were relevant, casualty figures are not indicative of the skill of the soldiers involved. Russian Texan said in a post earlier that whoever had the highest casualty count was less skilled. That is ridiculous.

The other point I was making was that your buddy RussianTexan had made a claim that was factually inaccurate once again. As you have so perceptuvely pointed out, even if RussianTexan's claim were true it would be pointless and stupid. The fact that this claim is also false makes it even worse. Thanks for acknowledging that Russian Texan is not only wrong but irrelevant and pointless.

Are the numbers that I found accurate? I am only curious.

hank

[Kilgor]

Finland's losses in the war were about 25,000 dead, 10,000 permanently disabled, and another 35,000 wounded, out of a population of only 3.5 million. Estimates of Soviet losses vary greatly. A subsequent Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev, estimated in his memoirs that the Soviet losses were about one million men.



http://countrystudies.us/finland/19.htm

Sounds like a typical soviet victory.

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

[Durandal]

I was referring to the fatalities in the first year of Soviet/Astan conflict v. US action in Astan. He claimed we lost more soldiers in combat in Astan in year 1 than Soviets did on year 1. I don't think that is even close to being accurate. Is it? My numbers are above.

hank

I am going to agree with 16 OBr SpN on this one. The casualties do not matter. Yes, the Russians took more than the United States and Nato troops, but I think the more important issues are mission goals and the stability of A-stan. The first mission was to dethrone the Taliban and eliminate AQ and capture Bin Laden. We currently have two of three.

That being said, I think the allied mission is doing more than the Soviets, but then, lets revisit this in a decade to make a better comparison.

I will say that if the international community gets off its ass and gets the money they promised to Afghanistan, rebuild the infrastructure, get the schools going again, and provide enough protection for the government to "jumpstart" the nation and its economy things will get to a point where the nation can manage itself...till then, our actions there really, regardless of the differences in casualties are no more "victorious" than the Russian's failed occupation.

[16 OBr SpN]

I agree 100%. That was in fact exactly my point.

Even if the casualty figure comparisons were relevant, casualty figures are not indicative of the skill of the soldiers involved. Russian Texan said in a post earlier that whoever had the highest casualty count was less skilled. That is ridiculous.

The other point I was making was that your buddy RussianTexan had made a claim that was factually inaccurate once again. As you have so perceptuvely pointed out, even if RussianTexan's claim were true it would be pointless and stupid. The fact that this claim is also false makes it even worse. Thanks for acknowledging that Russian Texan is not only wrong but irrelevant and pointless.

Are the numbers that I found accurate? I am only curious.

hank

Your numbers are accurate.

I'm not going to enter this argument any further. For you guys these are plain numbers, but for me it's something different.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[16 OBr SpN]

That being said, I think the allied mission is doing more than the Soviets, but then, lets revisit this in a decade to make a better comparison.

I will say that if the international community gets off its ass and gets the money they promised to Afghanistan, rebuild the infrastructure, get the schools going again, and provide enough protection for the government to "jumpstart" the nation and its economy things will get to a point where the nation can manage itself...till then, our actions there really, regardless of the differences in casualties are no more "victorious" than the Russian's failed occupation.

Good point.
Let's look at the example of Serbia. The government was overthrown, then here came peacekeepers, foreign aid, etc. But still there are no signs of a long term stability there. Latest clashes just prove it. Keep in mind that unlike Afghanistan it's in Europe.

But in Afghanistan racial tensions, religious fundamentalism, and rivalry between warlords had been there forever. I think, as long as the Western powers pour money there, the situation will be somewhat under control. Again, it also comes down to the political will of certain leaders.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Durandal]

Let's look at the example of Serbia. The government was overthrown, then here came peacekeepers, foreign aid, etc. But still there are no signs of a long term stability there. Latest clashes just prove it. Keep in mind that unlike Afghanistan it's in Europe.

But in Afghanistan racial tensions, religious fundamentalism, and rivalry between warlords had been there forever. I think, as long as the Western powers pour money there, the situation will be somewhat under control. Again, it also comes down to the political will of certain leaders.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Hmmm, wait a second now...

"But in Afghanistan racial tensions, religious fundamentalism..."

That can be said about Serbia...hell...that entire region. For centuries...

[hank]

I agree 100%. That was in fact exactly my point.

Even if the casualty figure comparisons were relevant, casualty figures are not indicative of the skill of the soldiers involved. Russian Texan said in a post earlier that whoever had the highest casualty count was less skilled. That is ridiculous.

The other point I was making was that your buddy RussianTexan had made a claim that was factually inaccurate once again. As you have so perceptuvely pointed out, even if RussianTexan's claim were true it would be pointless and stupid. The fact that this claim is also false makes it even worse. Thanks for acknowledging that Russian Texan is not only wrong but irrelevant and pointless.

Are the numbers that I found accurate? I am only curious.

hank

Your numbers are accurate.

I'm not going to enter this argument any further. For you guys these are plain numbers, but for me it's something different.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

Please don't misunderstand me. I know you were there and that this is more than a numbers game for you. While I dont; know how you must feel since I did not experience Astan in the 80's, I can appreciate that your friends who remained there are not numbers. I meant no disrepsct to them or to you. And, even though I was not there, I feel the same way. Loss of human life in war is sometimes necessary, but always tragic.

If I offended you 16, I am sorry. In my original post I asked for people for whom this issue was personal to please understand that I meant no disrespect by checking this claim, only to show that RussianTexan needed to stop with the insults, and if he must insult to at least be factually accurate. I won't mention the matter again. I have nothing but respect for the efforts of Soviet soldiers in Astan, or anywhere else for that matter, even if ideologically I may disagree with your government.

Durandal, we are on the same page. I know these comparisons prove nothing and I did not verify the information in an attempt to state US or Soviet superiority/inferiority. It just pisses me off the people make insulting and pointless remarks that are not even relevant if they were true. When those comments are also false, it is often more than I am willing to refrain from commenting about.

hank

[16 OBr SpN]

Hmmm, wait a second now...

"But in Afghanistan racial tensions, religious fundamentalism..."

That can be said about Serbia...hell...that entire region. For centuries...

True, but there are differentiating factors such as: geographical location, social structure, and mentality.

Even if we "equalize" both Serbia and Afghanistan, as we saw recently, the security hasn't stabilized in Balkans.
There might be more provocations, which will again, lead to violence.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[GazB]

Sure they won the war, but the cost in humanity both in terms of numbers and the moral concept was huge.

Yes, they paid a huge price, but the alternative was not really an option.


In many ways, they were no different than the people they were fighting.


So you think they were nazis?

They actually fought to the death for what they had and their way of life in their millions instead of running away or surrendering like the rest of Europe did and you compare them to nazis?


Eastern Europe, as a whole suffered under Soviet victory. One can look at the disparity in development between West and East to see that.

But those, what do you americans call them... cheese eating surender monkeys helped the germans destroy most of European Russia. How was Stalin supposed to treat them?
After all they were as you say very nazi like with their own people... why should they treat their neighbours any better?


Eastern Europe is playing catch up following the Soviet withdraw.

Catch up or suck up?(to Uncle Sams big firm nipple)


Afghanistan, though not the hotbed of democracy, was MUCH better off before Soviet invasion. Standard of living and education was higher, freedoms of women were better, the infrastructure on a whole was better.

Rubbish. Afghan traditions for the treatment of women have always been poor. It was only when the communists were in power that they were treated anywhere near equal to their menfolk. The Standard of living was not that great. The entry of the Soviets changed rural life in only one aspect. Whereas before the soviet invasion a feud between villages would consist of a 303 rifle shot every once and a while, after their invasion and the CIA's flooding of the country with Chinese made weapons that feud was more likely to consist of a burst of AK rounds or an RPG round.
During the war the soviets spent money both destroying their enemies and building schools and planting trees and building roads and bridges. The CIA spent money only on the destruction of Afghanistan... and they spent trillions.
And you forget to mention what a utopian paradise was created after the Soviets left. The CIA could have spent a fraction of what it spent to get rid of the soviets and covered the country in gold coins... Or was the CIAs goal not actually to help the Afghans, but hurt the Soviets.


Today, we can attribute MUCH of A-stan's problems with the Soviet invasion.


The CIA was interfering in Afghanistan 6 years before the Soviets attacked... if they hadn't gone in and agitated the Afghans wouldn't have become anti Russian and the Russians wouldn't have had to go in and "fix the problem".


To control all of Europe eventually and force the Americans out? Nope. That failed.


WTF are you talking about? WWII for the Soviets was about defeating Germany and making sure it never became powerful enough to hurt Russia again. The division of Germany into East and West was a successful achievement of that goal. Currently the Germans understand the Russians rather better than any western country and tend to respect Russias position rather more than Russia's former allies of France, Britain, and the US.


For all its "military greatness" Russian does well inside the confines of its political borders, but outside of it...it is hated and becomes the enemy rather than the liberator.

An Iraqi reading this might think the same about America right at this moment.


The Russians have won more than they have lost, but the Russian people and those in occupied lands have suffered those victories greatly.

Reading your post this last comment sounds like a contradiction. Of course you are emphasising what you think were defeats... I am surprised you haven't mentioned the fins... but you also haven't mentioned the Japanese just before WWII. The sound drubbing that Zhukov gave them probably prevented the second front from being opened during WWII.


He claimed we lost more soldiers in combat in Astan in year 1 than Soviets did on year 1.

I disagree with his assertion, but I also disagree that the figures mean anything. The Soviet goal was to control the country, which by and large they did by the mid 80s. The US goal was to replace the government. If the Soviets had used the tactics of the US... ie airpower plus special forces on the ground leading Northern Alliance troops I am sure their casualties would have been comparable. There is always going to be a difference between several hundred thousand troops occupying a country against forces actively aided and supported by a super power and a force of less than 30,000 special forces and special troops that don't even have to bother about holding any territory and just conduct a few sweeps for one faction.


Sounds like a typical soviet victory.

Against a country that actively fought for the Nazis during WWII. Interesting who is a cheese eating surrender monkey and who isn't...

[Sergei]

That being said, I think the allied mission is doing more than the Soviets, but then, lets revisit this in a decade to make a better comparison.



That has to be the dumbest quote of the day. Do you know how many schools, hospitals, maternity wards, etc the Soviets built in Afganistan? The whole Afganistan operates right now on an old Soviet infrastructure, without this they would have no life whatsoever. Once again the allied mission is located in Kabul, they are doing something for the Kabul citizens, what about the rest of the country? The rest of the country is growing pot and sells it through CIA to Europe and other countries.