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JBH22
12-25-2009, 06:42 AM
Shashank Joshi (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/shashank-joshi)
guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Friday 25 December 2009 10.00 GMT



In the 19th century, Indian armies twice crossed the Hindu Kush (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6pbIziLpG7cC&lpg=PA33&dq=anglo-afghan%20wars&pg=PA33#v=onepage&q=anglo-afghan%20wars&f=false), hoping to stitch together the patchwork political authority of the territory in the service of their British masters. Over a century later, the sovereign republic of India once more has a renewed presence in what was once its mountainous buffer from the Tsarist, and then Soviet, giant to the north.

A year ago, Indians completed the construction of Afghanistan's new parliament building and, to compound the symbolism, provided training to the legislators who would make the country's laws. Over a billion dollars in aid and investment, multiple consulates, and a little-reported thousand-strong troop presence all testify to the flourishing ties (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7492982.stm) between the two democracies.

India is Afghanistan's fifth-largest donor (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125061548456340511.html), pledging $1.2bn since 2001 and providing aid that spans education, health and infrastructure. The most eye-catching project, a 215km road connecting the Iranian border to Afghanistan's arterial highway, will eventually allow India to transport goods by sea to an Iranian port (http://www.livemint.com/2009/03/25230754/Afghanistan-keen-to-promote-al.html) it is developing, and thence to Afghanistan and beyond. This circumvents the overland route, blocked by Pakistan (http://www.thepresidency.org/pubs/Afghan_Study_Group_final.pdf), but also gives a fillip to Indo-Afghan trade ($538m during 2007-8). Hamid Karzai, himself educated in India and the beneficiary of Indian military support (http://www.cfr.org/publication/6486/new_priorities_in_south_asia.html) during the 1990s, visited India four times in the first five years of his tenure. The Afghan national army, the linchpin of the new American strategy to pacify the country, receives training across India.

Not everyone is happy with the widening Indian footprint (http://www.cfr.org/publication/17474/indiaafghanistan_relations.html). Pakistan, long reliant on Afghanistan as a source of "strategic depth (http://www.jstor.org/pss/2645079)" has invoked fears of encirclement (http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/sam117.pdf) and Indian-sponsored separatism (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/afghanistan-rubbishes-pak-claims-of-indian-i/494623/). This is in addition to the panoply of wild "conspiracy theorists who insist that every one of Pakistan's ills are there because of interference by the US, India, Israel and Afghanistan", says Ahmed Rashid (http://newsalerts.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8369914.stm), a noted Pakistani journalist.

Among other attacks (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/IA27Df04.html), a car bomb at the Indian embassy in Kabul killed 41 in July 2008. According to the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/world/asia/01pstan.html?em), American officials quickly presented "intercepted communications between Pakistani intelligence officers and militants who carried out the attack" to demonstrate Pakistani culpability and "the ISI officers had not been renegades".

Then in September 2009, General Stanley McChrystal, the commander of the International Security Assistance Force, suggested in a leaked assessment (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/21/AR2009092100110.html) of the war that "while Indian activities largely benefit the Afghan people, increasing Indian influence in Afghanistan is likely to exacerbate regional tensions and encourage Pakistani countermeasures in Afghanistan or India". The scarcely veiled threat of further bloodbaths such as Mumbai (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/mumbai-terror-attacks) prompted renewed anger (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/world/asia/01pstan.html?em) in the Indian media.

India has responded cautiously. Indian defence minister AK Antony insisted (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/antony-rules-out-military-involvement-in-afghanistan/534402/) "categorically … there is no question of Indian military involvement in Afghanistan … not now, not in the future". A former head of India's foreign intelligence service has said (http://soodvikram.blogspot.com/2009/10/us-just-cant-leave-afghans-to-their.html) that "sending troops … is not an option".

There are sound and perhaps compelling reasons for this reticence. There remain bitter memories (http://in.rediff.com/news/2000/mar/28lanka.htm) of the 1,200 deaths suffered by an Indian peacekeeping force in Sri Lanka, and although Indian security forces have six decades of counterinsurgency experience (http://www.routledgestrategicstudies.com/books/India-and-Counterinsurgency-isbn9780415491037), they face multiple intensifying guerilla wars (http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpapers27%5Cpaper2629.html) at home from Maoists (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/16/naxalite-rebels-india) and separatists. Moreover, India's coalition politics, featuring local parties with parochial interests, is hardly suited to sustaining ambitious foreign policies.

Yet more than 1,000 (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZmFiMzA2OGMwMmFmYmQxNWUxYjY2ZWNjNWYyZmViNzc) members of the paramilitary Indo-Tibetan Border Police (http://itbpolice.nic.in/) are deployed in Afghanistan. President Obama's affirmation to withdraw US forces by 2011 has generated a prospective vacuum (http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?263039), inducing Pakistan to renew its support for the Taliban. This has produced loudening, though still marginal, Indian voices in favour of more boots on the ground.

Amir Taheri, writing in The Times, suggests (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4295636.ece) that a military commitment is "surprisingly popular in India". One former diplomat argues (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KJ10Df01.html) that "influential sections of Indian opinion are stridently calling for an outright Indian intervention in Afghanistan without awaiting the niceties of an American invitation letter".

The editor of the "realist" journal Pragati writes (http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Current-Affairs/Security-Watch/Detail/?ots591=4888CAA0-B3DB-1461-98B9-E20E7B9C13D4&lng=en&id=88656) that "military involvement … will shift the battleground away from Kashmir and the Indian mainland". An affiliated blog draws (http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2009/12/19/why-india-should-send-troops-to-afghanistan/) on the idea of "force fungibility" to argue that "since it is not feasible for Indian troops to directly attack Pakistan's military-jihadi complex, India should ensure that US troops do so" by "reliev[ing them] of duties in areas where they are not actually fighting the Taliban – especially in western and northern Afghanistan".

Others have suggested (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/debating-indias-stand-on-military-aid-to-afghanistan/486099/2) that "the best contribution … might be in the areas of combat training and creating capacities in logistics and communications", still sorely lacking in the embryonic Afghan national army (http://www.fpri.org/enotes/200911.haynes.reformingafghannationalarmy.html).

Support for the war is faltering (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6930423.ece) in western capitals, partly because citizens cannot see how it furthers homeland security. The frequency and scale of attacks on India mean that Indians have no such trouble. National caveats on force employment – particularly (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/10/afghan-war-france-germany-europe) from France, Italy, and Germany – hinder the efficacy of Nato troops, but Indian casualty sensitivity is almost certainly less than that in, say, Britain.

India's longstanding cultural ties (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4188462.stm) to Afghanistan – Bollywood movies are wildly popular there, for instance – mean that Indian soldiers would be less likely to be stigmatised as occupiers, with 73% of Afghans professing a favourable view (http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/story?id=6787686) of India (and 91% holding the opposite view of Pakistan).

India is also experienced at counterinsurgency, enjoys good relations (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HH12Df01.html) with regional powers such as Iran and Russia (including bases in Tajikistan (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/tajik-air-base-is-ready-gives-india-its-first-footprint-in-strategic-central-asia/24207)), and the large reserves of available forces. India has nearly 9,000 troops with the UN, and just withdrew 30,000 (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/-30-000-troops-withdrawn-from-J-K-but-AFSPA-to-stay-/556002/) from Jammu and Kashmir.

The obstacle (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/09/pakistan-dangerous-escalation-barack-obama) to India's involvement is Pakistan. Yet few stop to evaluate the absurdity (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/14/world/main5976236.shtml) of having "today's most active sponsor of terrorism" as a frontline ally (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ommRmaG8Q4wC&lpg=PA1&ots=t8wbvBZsVo&dq=daniel%20byman%20terrorism&lr=&pg=PA155#v=snippet&q=Pakistan%20most%20active&f=false) against terrorists. In December 2009, the New York Times reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/world/asia/15haqqani.html) Pakistan's refusal to crack down (http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2007/10/targeting_taliban_co.php) on Siraj Haqqani, the strongest Taliban commander in Afghanistan, on the basis that he was a "longtime asset of Pakistan's spy agency".

The truth downplayed in western capitals (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmfaff/302/30208.htm) is that India is one of the only interested parties, the US included, that has an interest in both state-building and counterterrorism on the Afghan side of the Durand line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durand_Line). Creating incentives for it to expand its provision of security could lay the groundwork for a commitment that will last long after the last western soldier (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/18/afghanistan-way-out-of-the-mire) is flown – or desperately airlifted – out of Kabul.

dredger14
12-25-2009, 11:35 AM
^^ More than half is total BS

India should sit back and enjoy the match with a cup of tea.

WingCommander
12-25-2009, 12:15 PM
^^ More than half is total BS

India should sit back and enjoy the match with a cup of tea.

Agreed.


India's longstanding cultural ties to Afghanistan – Bollywood movies are wildly popular there, for instance – mean that Indian soldiers would be less likely to be stigmatised as occupiers, with 73% of Afghans professing a favourable view of India (and 91% holding the opposite view of Pakistan).

No wonder pak are always pissed p-)

Scythian
12-25-2009, 01:37 PM
Every time the Indians crossed the Hindhu Kush (Hindhu Killer) they were cut down.

dredger14
12-25-2009, 01:49 PM
Every time the Indians crossed the Hindhu Kush (Hindhu Killer) they were cut down.

Thats quite a skewed way to see history.. Firstly Hindu Kush comes from the Hindu Kushan dynasty period(who occupied that territory and built the bamiyan Buddhas among other things), that nonsense about Hindus being killed there is false because more Hindus died in India proper than on the far side of the River Indus(traditional boundary of India).
Second-Only time Indians crossed that mountain range was during the Colonial era... and the Afghans lost half of their best lands thanks to the Durand Line.
Most Afghans conveniently forget to mention that half their territory was lost to first the Sikhs and then the Brits all at the hands of the hated "Hindus".
Those lands are still lost and might never be recovered,hardly something to be proud of..
http://i46.tinypic.com/9ucjo5.gif
Those "lost" pakhtuns now enjoy "Punjabi" hospitality and please tell us who lost more land.

kadu
12-25-2009, 11:23 PM
Thats quite a skewed way to see history.. Firstly Hindu Kush comes from the Hindu Kushan dynasty period(who occupied that territory and built the bamiyan Buddhas among other things), that nonsense about Hindus being killed there is false because more Hindus died in India proper than on the far side of the River Indus(traditional boundary of India).
Second-Only time Indians crossed that mountain range was during the Colonial era... and the Afghans lost half of their best lands thanks to the Durand Line.
Most Afghans conveniently forget to mention that half their territory was lost to first the Sikhs and then the Brits all at the hands of the hated "Hindus".
Those lands are still lost and might never be recovered,hardly something to be proud of..

Those "lost" pakhtuns now enjoy "Punjabi" hospitality and please tell us who lost more land.

You are absolutely right my friend.

Clockwinder
12-25-2009, 11:28 PM
Yeah, right - this would be an ideal way to placate the Pakistanis into coming into the fight properly. NOT. The fight will be better fought without the Indians. I'm sure they're fine with sitting back and watching Pakistan implode. Kashmir is one of the most volatile borders in the world and India is quite happy to have Pakistan's focus elsewhere.

JBH22
12-25-2009, 11:48 PM
Every time the Indians crossed the Hindhu Kush (Hindhu Killer) they were cut down.

Pure delusional attitude,besides its HIndu not hindhuroflrofl

Muzungu
12-26-2009, 09:41 AM
Maharaja Ranjit Singh had parts of Afghanista under his kingdom. he had muslim/hindu/sikhs in his army.

ever heard about Sikh General Hari Singh Nalwa (Nalua), whose name rang fear in afghans?

wigon
12-26-2009, 10:04 AM
A Indian peacekeeping force would only fly if the commander of the Indian contingent was Muslim and if a good percentage of the Indian soldiers were Muslim. Even then Taliban propaganda would still likely say that the entire Indian force was a pagan invasion force there to steal Afghanistan like they took Kashmir... etc... etc...

So while I'm sure America would welcome any extra assistance that helps reduce the load on our troops, I serioiusly doubt India would want to get heavily involved in such a bloody nasty conflict that would likely only further fuel Muslim extremists within India.

tyovan
12-26-2009, 12:11 PM
Any Indian boots on the ground would create more problems than they stopped - not due in any way to India's competence, but because our erstwhile 'allies' in the Land of the Pure would do their utmost to instigate violence throughout Afghanistan to make sure India won't be able to 'threaten' them (or else the Land of the Pure will have to face conspiracies by the Hindoos, Joos, Crusaders, Iranians, and the frickin Easter Bunny)..

dredger14
12-26-2009, 12:49 PM
There already are 1000+ Indian soldiers from the elite border paramilitary force the ITBP(Indo-Tibetan Border Police).

This number is greater than most minor contributors to the ISAF.

AL-Khalid
12-27-2009, 12:56 PM
Learning your lessons from indians land of pure ?

JBH22
12-28-2009, 11:16 AM
Learning your lessons from indians land of pure ?

Good jokeroflrofl

Muzungu
12-29-2009, 07:35 AM
Learning your lessons from indians land of pure ?

i didnt understand what you are trying to say and to who!

Scythian
12-29-2009, 08:22 AM
Thats quite a skewed way to see history.. Firstly Hindu Kush comes from the Hindu Kushan dynasty period(who occupied that territory and built the bamiyan Buddhas among other things), that nonsense about Hindus being killed there is false because more Hindus died in India proper than on the far side of the River Indus(traditional boundary of India).
Second-Only time Indians crossed that mountain range was during the Colonial era... and the Afghans lost half of their best lands thanks to the Durand Line.
Most Afghans conveniently forget to mention that half their territory was lost to first the Sikhs and then the Brits all at the hands of the hated "Hindus".
Those lands are still lost and might never be recovered,hardly something to be proud of..
http://i46.tinypic.com/9ucjo5.gif
Those "lost" pakhtuns now enjoy "Punjabi" hospitality and please tell us who lost more land.

You mean the "zero line' aka the Durand line.You can cross it at will the so called border means nothing.

Kind of hard to take serious a country that use to be part of Pakistan and Bangladesh seriously.That was drawn up in London and has been invaded and conquered by every one from the Aryans to the British and being well known for Gandhi not fierce warriors.

pg_ord
12-29-2009, 09:42 AM
You mean the "zero line' aka the Durand line.You can cross it at will the so called border means nothing.

Kind of hard to take serious a country that use to be part of Pakistan and Bangladesh seriously.That was drawn up in London and has been invaded and conquered by every one from the Aryans to the British and being well known for Gandhi not fierce warriors.
Well atleast we are not trigger happy tribals running around with AKs, setting off IEDs and committing suicide. ;)

Muzungu
12-29-2009, 10:11 AM
You mean the "zero line' aka the Durand line.You can cross it at will the so called border means nothing.

Kind of hard to take serious a country that use to be part of Pakistan and Bangladesh seriously.That was drawn up in London and has been invaded and conquered by every one from the Aryans to the British and being well known for Gandhi not fierce warriors.

we dont go on invading countries in the name of religion to make them part of our country.

creation of bangladesh is the finest example how Gandhi didnt make it a part of india!

if required again for the security of india, india will send its soldiers to A-stan!

Scythian
12-29-2009, 01:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/P5C647YXAlM

dredger14
12-29-2009, 02:22 PM
You mean the "zero line' aka the Durand line.You can cross it at will the so called border means nothing.

Kind of hard to take serious a country that use to be part of Pakistan and Bangladesh seriously.That was drawn up in London and has been invaded and conquered by every one from the Aryans to the British and being well known for Gandhi not fierce warriors.(Tell that to the Khalsa of Ranjit Singh-10 dead Pashtuns for every dead Sardar:) your ancestors weren't very amused-they knew who had the last laugh)
Keep clutching at straws, keep making yourself look like an idiot, keep longing for that glorious past--it is the only thing you have to be proud of..
Didn't the Yamrikis overrun that sorry piece of real estate in something like 4 hours. So much for Pahh-tun fighting prowess.
Atleast India is not run on the whims of the hated "Punjabis" and Yamrikis. Keep living in the past, in the present there is nothing to be proud of HEHEHE!!.

A nation of has-beens, attention seekers and delusional fools, now why does that sound so familiar (just like cousin pakistan)....p-)

Scythian
12-29-2009, 03:35 PM
Cousin Pakistan.So you must be talking about India no?

dredger14
12-29-2009, 03:41 PM
Cousin Pakistan.So you must be talking about India no?

Their culture has evolved into a mixture of Afghan, Irani and to a smaller extent Arab.

For Eg:- Perhan Tonban, Chinese missiles named after Afghan kings etc-etc. They ARE your cousins whether you like it or not, they do after-all claim your culture and history as their own. ASA and Sher Shah are all Pakistani kings:)