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Thugut
12-29-2009, 01:48 AM
So that's it. The world's worst polluters - the people who are drastically altering the climate - gathered here in Copenhagen to announce they were going to carry on cooking, in defiance of all the scientific warnings. They didn't seal the deal; they sealed the coffin for the world's low-lying islands, its glaciers, its North Pole, and millions of lives.



Those of us who watched this conference with open eyes aren't suprized. Every day, practical, intelligent solutions that would cut our emissions of warming gases have been offered by scientists, developing countries, and protesters - and they have been systematically vetoed by the governments of North America and Europe.



It's worth recounting a few of the ideas that were summarily dismissed - because when the world resolves to find a real solution, we will have to revive them.



Discarded Idea One: The International Environmental Court. Any cuts proposed at Copenhagen were purely voluntary. If a government decides not to follow them, nothing will happen, except a mild blush, and disastrous warming. After all, Canada signed up to cut its emissions at Kyoto, and then increased them by 26 percent - and there were no consequences. Copenhagen could unleash a hundred Canadas.



The brave, articulate Bolivian delegation - who have seen their glaciers melt at a terrifying pace - objected. They said if countries are serious about reducing emissions, their cuts need to be policed by an International Environmental Court that has the power to punish people who endanger our shared stable climate. This is hardly impractical. When our leaders and their corporate lobbies really care about an issue - say, on trade - they pool their sovereignty this way in a second. The World Trade Organization fines and sanctions nations severely if (say) they don't follow strict copyright laws. Is a safe climate less important than a trade-mark?



Discarded Idea Two: Leave the fossil fuels in the ground. At meetings here, an extraordinary piece of hypocrisy has been pointed out by the new international chair of Friends of the Earth, Nnimmo Bassey and the environmental writer George Monbiot. The governments of the world say they want to drastically cut their use of fossil fuels, yet at the same time they are enthusiastically digging up any fossil fuels they can find, and hunting for more. They are holding a fire extinguisher in one hand and a flame-thrower in the other.



Only one of these instincts can prevail. A study published earlier this year in the journal Nature showed that we can only use - at an absolute maximum - 60 percent of all the oil, coal and gas we have already discovered if we are going to stay the right side of catastrophic runaway warming. So the first step in any rational climate deal would be an immediate moratorium on searching for more fossil fuels, and fair plans for how to decide which of the existing stock we will leave unused. As Bassey put it: "Keep the coal in the hole. Keep the oil in the soil. Keep the tar sand in the land." This option wasn't even discussed by our leaders.



Discarded Idea Three: Climate debt. The rich world has been responsible for 70 percent of the warming gases pumped into the atmosphere - yet 70 percent of the effects are being felt in the developing world. Holland can build vast dykes to prevent its land flooding; Bangladesh can only drown. There is a cruel inverse relationship between cause and effect: the polluter doesn't pay.



So we have racked up a climate debt. We broke it, they paid. At this summit, for the first time, the poor countries rose in disgust. Their chief negotiator pointed out that the compensation offered "won't even pay for the coffins." The cliche that environmentalism is a rich person's ideology just gasped its final CO2-rich breath. As Naomi Klein put it: "At this summit, the pole of environmentalism has moved South."



When we are dividing up who has the right to emit the few remaining warming gases that the atmosphere can absorb, we need to realize that we are badly overdrawn. We have used up our share of warming gases, and then some. Yet the US and EU have dismissed the idea of climate debt out of hand. How can we get a lasting deal that every country agrees to if we ignore this basic principle of justice? Why should the poorest restrain themselves when the rich refuse to?



A deal based on these real ideas would actually cool the atmosphere. The alternatives championed at Copenhagen by the rich world - carbon offsetting, carbon trading, carbon capture - won't. They are a global placebo. The critics who say the real solutions are "unrealistic" don't seem to realize that their alternative is more implausible still: civilization continuing on a planet whose natural processes are rapidly breaking down.



Throughout the negotiations here, the world's low-lying island states have clung to the real ideas as a life-raft, because they are the only way to save their countries from a swelling sea. It has been extraordinary to watch their representatives - quiet, sombre people with sad eyes - as they were forced to plead for their own existence. They tried persuasion and hard science and lyrical hymns of love for their lands, and all were ignored.



Yet their discarded ideas - and dozens more like them - show once again that man-made global warming can be stopped. The intellectual blueprints exist just as surely as the technological blueprints. There would be sacrifices, yes - but they are considerably less than the sacrifices made by our grandparents in their greatest fight. We will have to pay higher taxes and fly less to make the leap to a renewably-powered world - but we will still be able to live an abundant life where we are warm and free and well-fed. The only real losers will be the fossil fuel corporations and the petro-dictatorships.



But our politicians have not chosen this sane path. No: they have chosen inertia and low taxes and oil money today over survival tomorrow. The true face of our current system - and of Copenhagen - can be seen in the life-saving ideas it has so casually tossed into the bin.

Buried deep in our subconscious, there still lays the belief that our political leaders are collective Daddies and Mummies who will – in the last instance – guarantee our safety. Sure, they might screw us over when it comes to hospital waiting lists, or public transport, or taxing the rich, but when it comes to resisting a raw existential threat, they will keep us from harm. Last week in Copenhagen, the conviction was disproved. Every leader there had been told by their scientists – plainly, bluntly, and for years – that there is a bare minimum we must all do now if we are going to prevent a catastrophe. And they all refused to do it.

To understand the gravity of what just happened, you need to know a few facts about global warming that, at first, sound odd. The world's climate scientists have shown that man-made global warming must not exceed 2 degrees Celcius. When you hear this, a natural reaction is – that's not much; how bad can it be if we overshoot? If I go out for a picnic and the temperature rises or falls by 2C, I don't much notice. But this is the wrong analogy. If your body temperature rises by 2C, you become feverish and feeble. If it doesn't go back down again, you die. The climate isn't like a picnic; it's more like your body.

Two degrees is bad: 2C means we lose much of the world's low-lying land, from the island-states of the South Pacific to much of Bangladesh to swathes of Florida. But at every step up to and including 2C, if we reduce our emissions, we can stabilise the climate at this new higher level. If we go beyond 2C, though, the situation changes. The earth's natural processes begin to break down – and cause more warming. There are massive amounts of warming gases stored in the Siberian permafrost; at 2C, they melt and are released into the atmosphere. The world's humid rainforests store huge amounts of warming gases in their trees. Beyond 2C, they lose their humidity and begin to burn down – releasing them too into the atmosphere.

These are called "tipping points". Because of them, the world gets warmer and warmer beyond 2C. They stand at the climate's Point of No Return, beyond which there lies only warming. We are only 6C away from the last ice age; we are setting ourselves on course to go that far in the opposite direction.

So what do we need to do to stay this side of 2C? There is a very broad, rock-solid scientific consensus that we need a cut of 40 per cent in the most polluting countries' emissions by 2020 if we are going to have even a 50-50 chance of doing so. Then, by 2050 we need an 80 per cent cut from everyone. The fact we are only aiming for a 50 per cent goal of avoiding calamity is a sign of how far we have already made a terrible compromise with fossil fuels – but our leaders are refusing to aim even for those odds.

There was plenty of disgrace to go around in Copenhagen. The world's worst per capita warmer is the US, yet its President turned up offering a pathetic 4 per cent cut by 2020 – and once you factor in all the loopholes his negotiators demanded, he was actually demanding the right to a significant increase in US emissions. He caved to the oil and gas lobbies who virtually own the Senate. It was – apart from anything else – a terrible betrayal of his own country's national security. In 2004, a leaked Pentagon report warned that unchecked global warming would ensure "disruption and conflict will be endemic ... [and] once again, warfare would define human life."

Similarly, the Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao behaved appallingly. His country is the single largest overall emitter of gases, albeit with a far larger population, and much more need for development. Yet he vetoed the 80 per cent target by 2050, and refused to allow other countries to carry out basic checks to ensure China was carrying out the smaller cuts they were committed to. Again, he is betraying his own people: most of China's population depend on rivers that flow down from the Himalayan glaciers, yet they are rapidly disappearing. His name will be cursed in the Chinese history books.

The European Union was hardly better. They sat inert, refusing to make any larger offer to get the ball rolling. Only President Lula da Silva of Brazil came out boldly with an ahead-of-the-curve offer – but his heroism was met with awkward silence and avoided glances from the other leaders.

So here's the situation. There is no deal. The world's leaders refused to agree to limit our emissions of warming gases. The most they could agree was to officially "note" the scientific evidence about C – with no roadmap to keep us this side of it. You get a sense of how valuable this "noting" is when you look at the things the conference also "noted": the hard work of the airport security staff, and the quality of the catering in the Bella Centre. It seems impossible, but our leaders really did give the stability of our climate the same status as their praise for Danish sandwiches.




http://www.johannhari.com/2009/12/18/they-didnt-seal-the-deal-they-sealed-the-coffin

wildcat
12-29-2009, 03:03 AM
I am so glad it ended in FAIL. If and IF GW has a small part made by man, then we need to be sensible about it, so far, it is raging loonies, and power grabbers. If they really wanted a win at events like the one in Copenhagen, why don't they get the science nail down first, with good solid evidence, so there is no excuses in anyones eyes. One way or the other, these scientist need to prove or disprove GW is man made, reservable, and what the solution is, or they need to debunk it right it off to nature and plan for us to adapt, because it going to get cold again one day.

JBH22
12-29-2009, 03:03 AM
Only President Lula da Silva of Brazil came out boldly with an ahead-of-the-curve offer – but his heroism was met with awkward silence and avoided glances from the other leaders


sheer hypocrisy that guy they just discovered large amount of petrol off the coast of Brazil,so to protect the environment will they not drill the petrol

wildcat
12-29-2009, 03:09 AM
IF these people really believe that GW is man made, and that we need to take action, then why oh why did they pollute so much to make the conference. it is like putting fuel on the fire while telling every one to put it out.

Thugut
12-29-2009, 03:36 AM
IF these people really believe that GW is man made, and that we need to take action, then why oh why did they pollute so much to make the conference. it is like putting fuel on the fire while telling every one to put it out.


Hahhhaha, man, are you naive or what?

These are politicians we are talking about:

All they believe in is personal profit.
They don't give a **** about the current generation, let alone the next one.
Priority number 1 is keeping the dumb populace happy while skimming off the top whatever they can with their grubby paws.

Measures against pollution will piss off most voters, as they have the attention span and deduction capabilities of a squirrel on crack (90% of the populace).
It will also piss-off the lobbying petrol-companies (you don't bite the hand that feeds you, donates for your campaigns).

So they have zero incentive for any change, and will happily do nothing, with that ****-eating grin plastered on their face as they whole thing comes down crashing on all of us.

vryhpyammoadded
12-29-2009, 02:39 PM
The whole political cultural con job of, climate change is a man made crises and fault of the wealthy who must now be yoked under mob decried wealth redistribution coercion managed by their carbon profiting managerial elite demagogues, has got to be put down, killed, utterly wiped out as a political force before it creates an tyrannical international bureaucratic monster that enslaves another fraction of human liberty.

There are better ways to go about doing this that don’t require the political strong arm, silencing of scientific dissent or a massive public con job. All that simply de-legitimizes the movement making it appear the construct of powerful, avaricious con men. Meanwhile, the research is still out on this subject and if you push too hard, getting what you want leaving a third of humanity yoked to your benefit, there will be severe consequence.

Statement for the crazed carbon zealots and their megalomaniacal leaders: This is neither a statement that human induced climate change is as much of an influence on our atmosphere or not. It is a statement against your ancient, retrograde tyrannical political method of frenzied mob coercion, demagogic leadership cons and backwards flawed collectivist philosophies always wrapped up in a multitude of slick new, more palatable redefined marketing lies.

RSone
12-29-2009, 03:10 PM
The danger to The Netherlands is that we while we have the resources and the know how to enlarge our dikes, we can only make them so big. Our problem is that our country is 'sinking'/settling while we are heightening dikes. This morning i was mountainbiking near the Schoorl dunes, and first took a little tour towards Petten first alongside the Hondsbosscher and Pettemer Seawall, then back towards the Schoorl parcours over the seawall. It is a marvelous piece of engineering, and testament to our understanding of hydrodynamics. 11.5 meters tall, at least a 100 meters wide, paved with asphalt and lined with wavebreakers. Yet it is deemed not enough. We can enlarge it, and we will. However, we realize we live on borrowed soil, on borrowed time. One day, the 'Water' as we like to call it, will come for us oncemore, and we won't be able to stop it. The country will not be destroyed, but it will be forever changed. Our own little contribution to a greener planet is, and will be only a droplet on a glowing plate, even if we were to reach carbon neutrality by some means, the sea would still continue to rise if ice stores continue to melt. If that is the case, then some day there WILL be no more 'Holland' as we will have been swallowed by the north sea, Mother Nature will have reclaimed her property. It will not be anytime soon, but in centuries, we simply won't be able to continue making our defences bigger, to realise that one in a 10.000 years golden standard.

And lets not forget that aside from the sea levels, the weather itself is getting more violent as well....... Like i said, we will fight, but if the world does not take action within the foreseeable future, the kids of my great-grand children(or perhaps even further down the road) will lose the fight. It was, and always has been a uphill struggle.

seraosha
12-29-2009, 03:32 PM
The International Environmental Court? rofl

Leave the fossil fuels in the ground? :cantbeli:

Climate debt? :backhand:

Ok, I think I've reached chicom levels of silly animated gifs on this one; just beyond hilarity. Lowland dwellers better brush up on their refugee skills. They are going to need them.

wildcat
12-29-2009, 03:37 PM
The danger to The Netherlands is that we while we have the resources and the know how to enlarge our dikes, we can only make them so big. Our problem is that our country is 'sinking'/settling while we are heightening dikes. This morning i was mountainbiking near the Schoorl dunes, and first took a little tour towards Petten first alongside the Hondsbosscher and Pettemer Seawall, then back towards the Schoorl parcours over the seawall. It is a marvelous piece of engineering, and testament to our understanding of hydrodynamics. 11.5 meters tall, at least a 100 meters wide, paved with asphalt and lined with wavebreakers. Yet it is deemed not enough. We can enlarge it, and we will. However, we realize we live on borrowed soil, on borrowed time. One day, the 'Water' as we like to call it, will come for us oncemore, and we won't be able to stop it. The country will not be destroyed, but it will be forever changed. Our own little contribution to a greener planet is, and will be only a droplet on a glowing plate, even if we were to reach carbon neutrality by some means, the sea would still continue to rise if ice stores continue to melt. If that is the case, then some day there WILL be no more 'Holland' as we will have been swallowed by the north sea, Mother Nature will have reclaimed her property. It will not be anytime soon, but in centuries, we simply won't be able to continue making our defences bigger, to realise that one in a 10.000 years golden standard.

And lets not forget that aside from the sea levels, the weather itself is getting more violent as well....... Like i said, we will fight, but if the world does not take action within the foreseeable future, the kids of my great-grand children(or perhaps even further down the road) will lose the fight. It was, and always has been a uphill struggle.

if we reversed CO2, it will not stop GW, it is not mans fault, it part of nature.

RSone
12-29-2009, 03:40 PM
if we reversed CO2, it will not stop GW, it is not mans fault, it part of nature.

True, but (most likely) we are making it worse. Every Dutchman knows it is a fight we, bar some miracle, cannot win in the long haul. Greenhouse gasses are only making it harder for us.

Thugut
12-29-2009, 03:41 PM
The whole political cultural con job of, climate change is a man made crises and fault of the wealthy who must now be yoked under mob decried wealth redistribution coercion managed by their carbon profiting managerial elite demagogues, has got to be put down, killed, utterly wiped out as a political force before it creates an tyrannical international bureaucratic monster that enslaves another fraction of human liberty.

Never knew there was a "pollute as much as you want" ammendment in the constitution. I guess it must be right under the "I loves my guns" one.


if we reversed CO2, it will not stop GW, it is not mans fault, it part of nature.

Wow, we have an atmospheric scientist among us.
Wait, no, you are just talking out of your ass. Go get a relevant degree and then your opinion on climate change might be worth listening to. For the meantime I will listen to the scientists.

vryhpyammoadded
12-29-2009, 03:45 PM
Never knew there was a "pollute as much as you want" ammendment in the constitution. I guess it must be right under the "I loves my guns" one.



Wow, we have an atmospheric scientist among us.
Wait, no, you are just talking out of your ass. Go get a relevant degree and then your opinion on climate change might be worth listening to. For the meantime I will listen to the scientists.

It's cool, you are free to be as ignorant as you please, making whatever stupid assumptions and smart assed comments you desire in ignoring the warnings.

wildcat
12-29-2009, 03:53 PM
Never knew there was a "pollute as much as you want" ammendment in the constitution. I guess it must be right under the "I loves my guns" one.

Wow, we have an atmospheric scientist among us.
Wait, no, you are just talking out of your ass. Go get a relevant degree and then your opinion on climate change might be worth listening to. For the meantime I will listen to the scientists.
Does Al Gore have a degree on climate change? I just not going to drink the GW: evil capitalist, people are stupid, long live socialism koolaid.

Al Gore did invent the internet.

Thugut
12-29-2009, 03:56 PM
It must be uncomfortable wearing a tin foil hat, when your head is up your own ass.

Ok, seriously though, Why do you have to find political aspects to this?

It's simple: Polluting is bad, it also has the side effect of changing the Earth's climate. That's all its about.

You can hate the stupid leftist morons like Al Gore or Ed Begley (he should stick to his lame movies). You can also hate the fact that things will be more expensive if measures are taken (it might require an increase in taxes even!). You can also hate any idea of an international bureaucratic system that will try to regulate things.

You still need to get something done about CO2 emissions, and inventing conspiracy theories, or being in denial, just isn't going to cut it.


@wildcat: Who gives f@ck about Al Gore? He is a mouthpiece. Is that your entire argument? Al gore has no science degree either, so I'm free to make up scientific facts? Pretty pathetic.

seraosha
12-29-2009, 04:24 PM
It must be uncomfortable wearing a tin foil hat, when your head is up your own ass.

Well you would know, honey.
Really, you lemmings would do better trying to get your propaganda out the door if your first reaction to opposition wasn't to go off on hysterical rants that just make you look like a fool.

wildcat
12-29-2009, 04:34 PM
his?

It's simple: Polluting is bad, it also has the side effect of changing the Earth's climate. That's all its about.



I agree Polluting is bad

seeing you think I am an uneducated moron, who never bothered to read up, I will tell you why I do not think CO2 GW is man made.

C02 is a trace gas, and yes, it does help the planet to regulate heat to a small degree. The largest concentration of C02 on the planet is the oceans, the oceans will store C02 as it cools. but seeing the planet is heating up due to solar activity more C02 is released

here is an article from NG talking about the increase in temperatures on Mars and Earth (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html)

I beleive C02 rises because of the warming of the planet based on this data

taken from ice cores (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/283/5408/1712)

another source http://www.daviesand.com/Choices/Precautionary_Planning/New_Data/

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/co2-in-ice-cores/

so far I believe the C02 lag theory, where the science is based around up to 420,000 years of recorded data, in the form of ice cores.

the reason I cannot buy the Man made GW augment is one

1) Science has become corrupt, and the process of peer review is floored. GW gives scientist lots of research money.

2) the leftist movement on GW seems more about power than saving the planet.

I do how ever, think it is important for us to pollute less, that is the moral thing to do.


I am open minded, but I not buying the argument of the industrial revelation being the cause, may add a little to the GW, but I doubt it is significant in the scheme that our planet natural evolution of heating and cooling. The science needs to be better, the GW alarmist science is mainly based of computer models that now seem to be floored.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8583

Thugut
12-29-2009, 04:38 PM
Well you would know, honey.
Really, you lemmings would do better trying to get your propaganda out the door if your first reaction to opposition wasn't to go off on hysterical rants that just make you look like a fool.

I'm not your honey, sugar :roll:

And how one can seriously consider CO2-emission effects to be propaganda is beyond me. The pinko commies must be behind it eh?

@wildcat: studying the subject is admirable. But you have to admit there is a difference between that, and having atmospheric science as your entire career. Scientists are humans like the rest of us, they do make mistakes. But when the scientific community reaches a consensus, you had better listen up. Climate change is not 100% understood, just as Quantum mechanics is not exactly complete (when compared to classical mechanics, or electromagnetism), so there will be some differences in opinion. It is not enough of a reason though to discredit the fact that the CO2 increase is caused by us, and it is changing our environment.

wildcat
12-29-2009, 04:43 PM
I'm not your honey, sugar :roll:

And how one can seriously consider CO2-emission effects to be propaganda is beyond me. The pinko commies must be behind it eh?

maybe should put you money where you month is and share some links to prove the theory you believe.

Thugut
12-29-2009, 04:49 PM
maybe should put you money where you month is and share some links to prove the theory you believe.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Climate+change

RSone
12-29-2009, 04:51 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Climate+change

Hate to break it to you, but lmgtfty is hardly a sound argument in this little shindig called a debate.

Thugut
12-29-2009, 04:52 PM
Hate to break it to you, but lmgtfty is hardly a sound argument in this little shindig called a debate.

Any of the links it comes up with are though.

wildcat
12-29-2009, 05:15 PM
Any of the links it comes up with are though.

hmm so you really did drink the koolaid. I rest my case. you like to attack people who might have a different opinion to yours, but it seems you just go with what is feed to you in the media.

tea drinker
12-29-2009, 05:18 PM
I agree Polluting is bad

seeing you think I am an uneducated moron, who never bothered to read up, I will tell you why I do not think CO2 GW is man made.

C02 is a trace gas, and yes, it does help the planet to regulate heat to a small degree. The largest concentration of C02 on the planet is the oceans, the oceans will store C02 as it cools. but seeing the planet is heating up due to solar activity more C02 is released

here is an article from NG talking about the increase in temperatures on Mars and Earth (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html)

I beleive C02 rises because of the warming of the planet based on this data

taken from ice cores (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/283/5408/1712)

another source http://www.daviesand.com/Choices/Precautionary_Planning/New_Data/

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/co2-in-ice-cores/

so far I believe the C02 lag theory, where the science is based around up to 420,000 years of recorded data, in the form of ice cores.

the reason I cannot buy the Man made GW augment is one

1) Science has become corrupt, and the process of peer review is floored. GW gives scientist lots of research money.

2) the leftist movement on GW seems more about power than saving the planet.

I do how ever, think it is important for us to pollute less, that is the moral thing to do.


I am open minded, but I not buying the argument of the industrial revelation being the cause, may add a little to the GW, but I doubt it is significant in the scheme that our planet natural evolution of heating and cooling. The science needs to be better, the GW alarmist science is mainly based of computer models that now seem to be floored.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8583
QFT - you said everything I wanted to say.

Scientists are wrong more than they are right in relation to complex theories, it takes a long time and many cul de sacs before the right answer can be found. GW theory is the same.

About the developing countries stealing my money because of "damage" I have done - how much will they give me in return for the deforestatation they have carried out? I am talking mostly about historical problems in Africa, and the current one in South America.

vryhpyammoadded
12-29-2009, 05:47 PM
Thugut, you do know that it hurts whatever points your making running amuck at the half **** so often not reading all what people write or is it that I didn’t make the point clear enough to you that it’s the specific political method of dealing with carbon favored that I find incorrect and that there are better ways to go about regulating this issue.

Or, are you just another GW STFU and do what I say case? If so, get bent and hope to meet you on the battlefield when the time comes.

gazell
12-29-2009, 05:54 PM
Hey, another one! There is plenty to read of at least FIFTY or so years of science for most here, preferably, before posting, next time.

We are f$cked as per said. Not exactly so, but more or less. People still arguing this, do not seem to amaze me. So again: WE ARE ****ED, IS IT CRYSTAL CLEAR?

Thugut
12-29-2009, 06:24 PM
I didn’t make the point clear enough to you that it’s the specific political method of dealing with carbon favored that I find incorrect and that there are better ways to go about regulating this issue. .

Hey, no disagreement there, though if you don't like the suggested political method, you should come up with an alternative.

All I've seen though is attacks against the science and the scientists. And that is pure, undiluted idiocy. Armchair-Scientists, really :cantbeli:

sheikhness
12-29-2009, 08:05 PM
I for one would welcome every dutchman immigrated to the land of Israel ;)

wildcat
12-29-2009, 08:07 PM
Hey, no disagreement there, though if you don't like the suggested political method, you should come up with an alternative.

All I've seen though is attacks against the science and the scientists. And that is pure, undiluted idiocy. Armchair-Scientists, really :cantbeli:

you just another GW Al Gore fanboy

Thugut
12-29-2009, 08:38 PM
you just another GW Al Gore fanboy

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5663/algorethumbsup.jpg

Amstrup
12-29-2009, 08:42 PM
Global warming is real, only rednecks and right winged americans think its a lie.

vryhpyammoadded
12-29-2009, 09:42 PM
Hey, no disagreement there, though if you don't like the suggested political method, you should come up with an alternative.


All I've seen though is attacks against the science and the scientists. And that is pure, undiluted idiocy. Armchair-Scientists, really

I have talked about alternatives many times on previous threads which pretty much all boil down to my preference to no government profit, fee's, monopoly etc... from said carbon trading in the US specifically other than the normal taxation of commodities trading profits. The current favored US and international models being debated have subtle and not so subtle differences that make carbon trading more another government graft over and above simple taxation.

Yes, I know a great deal of people are ok with extensive, intrusive, centralized, one size fits all, government redistribution of personal wealth to command economic segments of economies systems, in this case ramping up alternative energies. That’s fine for those who enjoy that life but my tastes in that manner of regulation result from my direct experiences learning to distrust elected and appointed bureaucrats running vast, near immortal bureaucracies with such influence over individual effort.

Innovation can and has evolved in a free market but the issue today is that our markets are not free and subject to the whims of powerful individuals and collectives (under all political/economic systems especially ones more centrally controlled) manipulating and coercing regulation and legislation to create artificial dependencies and unnecessary monopolies to the detriment of innovation, competition and the betterment of all.

In other words, government and the people who brought us to this level of corruption have to regain my trust by loosening the death grip on competition before I’ll allow them one more iota of control over my time and effort and every time they swindle another measure of license and steal a fraction of my effort they simply dig a deeper hole for themselves.

If people, primarily in the US, want me to stop making noise against them and support carbon commodities trading then they had better turn 180 about from any more forcing of government controlled answers on me.

Which if you haven't figured out yet does imply that I am a radical who desires the purging of incumbents, the US managerial elite and the reformation of their political parties. Yeh, I know, not gonna happen by a long shot. Meh, whatever, I say they're destined all to do it one day later long after I'm dead anyway...

As for attacking the science, I’ve never done so. I like to keep an open mind and hear out all sides and have noted, on my own and not via talk radio and whatnot, that for the past decade several doubting scientists with perfectly valid hypotheses have experienced political STFU pressure. That pisses me the hell off.

Science is about open discussion, testing and peer review and the thought of political power shutting the process down, especially when some individuals stand to make a tidy profit and gain power over billions, simply reduces said issues credibility into the unimportant for me.

Clockwinder
12-29-2009, 10:31 PM
Get your bunker built, cos this is happening. Isn't it ironic that the very guys who have prepared for the Apocalypse are the same ones who don't believe it's upon us?
Copenhagen was a fraud - the organization of the event was a total mess. Delegates (sic) had no idea what was happening - how could we be expected to? The science was brought into discussion instead of solutions to already proven problems. Third world (non polluting nations - oxymoron) countries saw it as an opportunity to screw the developed world out of money. Developed countries saw it as an opportunity to show their "leadership". What a farce. Waterworld here we come.