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2RHPZ
07-17-2004, 06:23 AM
Anti-Americanism and its threat to transatlantic cooperation and security

The Eurasian Politician - July 2004

by Christian Jokinen 31.5.2004;
Published originally in Turkish Policy Quarterly, June 2004,
http://www.turkishpolicy.com

Anti-Americanism has became fashionable and is now a threat to the transatlantic cooperation. The risks of anti-Americanism are numerous and severe. Protests against "American imperialism" connected with almost all recent international summits recall the year 1968 and the wave of radicalism and terrorism in the 60s and 70s. A significant part of anti-American rhetoric is aimed at undermining the "legitimacy" of the hegemonic position of the US. The result of this could be that the key-player of world security may turn to neo-isolationism and turn its back to Europe. The old continent lacks the "power-political" resources to take the lead in world politics. Europe lacks the means to challenge the US in political influence, economic power or military might in the foreseeable future. If America is criticized in an irrational and emotional way, the outcome will be a US disengagement from the transatlantic pact and Europe's marginalization in global politics. it is desirable for Europe to balance the disparity of power between the US and Europe, but it would be most irresponsible and inconsiderate for Europe to choose a path leading to multipolarism and confrontation with the US, instead of co-operation.

The defeat and collapse of state communism and of the Soviet Union left the United States as the sole world superpower. As America's leadership of the West and the "New World Order" or "Pax Americana" became more obvious, a side effect was that the US also became a target for various forms of dissatisfaction, jealousy and resistance to the existing status quo. This has had an effect on transatlantic relations. The Atlantic seems to be wider than it has been for a long time, and the mantra that America and Europe share the same values, often repeated on both sides of the ocean, often sounds rather hollow.

There seemed to be a temporary break in the vicious cycle on 12 September 2001, when the French newspaper Le Monde went into mourning on its front page and declared: "We are all Americans," but the groundswell of sympathy soon turned into a backlash of anti-Americanism. Even before September 11 and the war in Iraq, the Bush administration trampled on European sensitivities by rejecting the Kyoto protocol and the war crimes tribunal in the Hague, and by insisting on missile defense and steel quotas. For many Europeans, these were clear evidence that the US exercised double standards in its foreign policy.
The Roots of Anti-Americanism

The newly popular anti-Americanism in Europe has a certain intellectual tradition, extending from Oswald Spengler through Martin Heidegger and Jean-Paul Sartre to the present-day critics of the US. Although very different in the articulation of their accusations against the US, they all share a negative attitude towards America: for them the United States represents a civilization "without culture," "materialistic" and "artificial," technologically complex, but at the same time "soulless." Another, and in the long run perhaps even more relevant source of anti-Americanism, has been that of the geopolitical traditions - first and foremost those of Germany and Russia, including different variations on the Heartland theory of Sir Halford Mackinder, Karl Haushofer's Geopolitik, and the Eurasianist anti-Atlanticism of Russian geopolitics throughout imperial, Soviet and contemporary times.[1]

Anti-Americanism is not merely criticism of particular policies or of a particular US president. It has become a sort of radical view that the USA is both wrong in principle and wrong in practice. It has become a generic, overt attack on America and on American standards, values and approaches, everywhere and in everything. It seems that people get obsessed about the United States for various reasons but first and foremost because of its immense wealth and power. It has became fashionable to be anti-American and the anti-American rhetoric has almost become a parody of the postmodern world: a radical youth of today can wear jeans and Nike's sneakers and drink Coca Cola, while wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt and preaching against the US and "globalization." Yet it is exactly this culture of radicalism that is truly global in nature: the same symbols are displayed and the same slogans cried out in France, Germany, Palestine, India, Indonesia or Brazil. Everywhere, the accusations against the US are essentially the same: accusations regarding imperialism and capitalism, hegemonic influence, arrogance, disregard of supposed local interests or sensitivities.[2]

In a recent discussion on the topic, a colleague of mine made the following conclusion about the situation, stating that "while in the 19th and early 20th centuries the Europeans could always blame the Jews and their greed for gold, today we can always blame the Americans and believe that all conflicts are just about oil." The scenery of riots and violent protests against "globalization," "capitalism" and "American imperialism" connected with almost all recent international summits recalls the year 1968 and the wave of radicalism and terrorism in the 60s and 70s. The elements for such a "cultural conflict" seem to be surprisingly similar: a young generation willing to revise the prevalent values of the society; an unpopular war receiving the attention of the world's media; frustration about an unpredictable world, and alienation from the guiding structures of an increasingly global economy and politics.

One regularly expressed accusation is that the US is basically unilateral in its approach to foreign policy, preferring bilateral agreements over multilateral ones. Although at first glance these accusations may seem to be based on Europe's own true desires for multilateralism, in fact, this is not the case. The profound issue lays in the question of "legitimacy." A significant part of anti-American rhetoric is aimed at undermining the "legitimacy" of the hegemonic position of the US. As Robert Kagan has pointed out in his landmark book Paradise and Power, the European assaults on the legitimacy of American actions and American power "may be an effective if unconventional way of constraining and controlling the American superpower."[3] He tracks these European ambitions to Europe's "strategy of weakness." In Mr. Kagan's words, the fundamental difference between the US and Europe is highlighted by their different approaches to a perceived threat. Due to Europe's military weakness, Europe has to rely on diplomacy and "soft-power" tools like economic influence. The consequence of this is that Europe has a greater tolerance for today's threats and at times a greater risk for denial, as Mr. Kagan quite vividly shows. On the other hand the US has the power and the capacity to try to "fix" these problems. These differences are grounded in a practical reality that is another consequence of the disparity of power and the structure of the present international order.
The Geopolitical Background

In the past, anti-Western, anti-British, and anti-American currents in continental European thought stemmed from the geopolitical theories of the 19th century. In his writings, the British geopolitician Sir Halford Mackinder advocated the idea that a continental Heartland power would constitute the main threat to Western coastal and insular powers. Thus, the potential threats were Russian and German imperialism, which also challenged "Western values" based on liberty and the rule of law with their traditions of autocracy and despotism.[4] The responses by German and Russian geopoliticians were a direct confirmation of Mackinder's warnings, manifested in the Russo-British "Great Game" over Eurasia as well as in both the world wars. The torch of Western liberty was formally passed over the Atlantic on 21 February 1947, when Britain told the US that it would give up the protection of Greece and Turkey within 38 days, and when consequently, the US assumed this duty on 22 May 1947. This also meant the shifting of Western leadership from Britain to the US.[5]

Throughout the Cold War, the world was still essentially dominated by a geopolitical rivalry, although now more evidently between two diametrically opposed ideological blocks. US attention was still tied to territorial aspects, especially along the Iron Curtain running across Europe. The US was the source of Western regional power in Europe. When the Cold War ended and the Soviet empire collapsed, the world came under the global hegemony of the US. At the same time, the European front became secondary in the global sense, when US attention gradually shifted to the Asia-Pacific region on one hand, and to the Middle East and Central Asia on the other. The most rapidly expanding markets of consumption as well as production are in the Asia-Pacific, while the essential new energy resources coincide with supposed future "instability" (i.e. geopolitical rivalry over the spheres of interest) in the "Muslim Crescent".

This coincides with the general trend, which has been for the dynamic of civilization to move westwards, as has been marvelously studied by the historian Felipe Fernández-Armesto in Millennium.[6] After Europe lost its dynamic edge at the end of the world wars, it was first shifted to the East Coast of the USA, while at the end of the Cold War this dynamic of both economical and innovative initiative had further shifted to California (home to the Silicon Valley) and East Asia (home to the supposed next economic motor of the world). European intellectuals quite correctly observed that with the liberation of Eastern Europe in 1989-1992, Europe had been given a new chance to take over the initiative, but in many senses, Europe was simply unprepared to "seize the day." It took 14 years for the EU to finally realize the first enlargement of its club to include former socialist countries (with the exception of East Germany), and the ambitious Lisbon Declaration, which promised to make the EU "the most competitive knowledge-based society of the world" by 2010, has failed in practically all of its mid-term goals.
Western Hegemony - with or without Europe?

It cannot be argued, however, that the US approach to the world is essentially different from Europe's in the sense that the US has a global approach while Europe has a regional one. Europe is deeply interested in global affairs, and does not seem to be prepared to accept the role of a regional player only. On the other hand, Europe, although an economic superpower, lacks the muscle in military and consequently to some extent the political muscle to influence the rest of the world. Besides, Europe has not succeeded very well in the regional role either, as its conduct in conflicts in the Balkans, the Caucasus and the Cyprus imbroglio, as well as the failures of political policy in Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine and Russia, demonstrate. It seems that it is not so much the role of the US that is the core problem, but the role of Europe.

Indeed, the catastrophes of Bosnia and Kosovo alarmed the Europeans to slowly start a process of meeting the needs of the security responsibilities in their home continent and the chance that America might not be there forever. Vested in the efforts to form "autonomous European security policy", especially advocated by France and manifested with the Artémis operation in the Congolese "Heart of Darkness", there is a genuine and sincere process of constructing a credible European defence. The question is whether this process can speed up to meet the process of shifting American attention. It is also important to which extent the Western European reduction in defence capacity (though with simultaneous investment in rapid reaction forces to meet the "new threats" far away from the traditional European fronts, as favored by Britain) will be compensated by better employment of the more traditional defence concepts on Europe's eastern flank, where the strong defence of Finland and Turkey might need to be completed with strengthening Polish and Romanian defence.

Besides Europe, the current American supremacy is opposed by the other would-be hegemonic powers of Eurasia: especially Russia, China, India and Iran, all four of which share traditions and geopolitical ideas with imperial ambitions. All of them share a negative attitude towards Western hegemony, towards the advocacy of "Western forms" of democracy, human rights and the market economy, and all of them explicitly advocate "a multipolar world order" in their global strategies. Among them, China is gaining strength with the fastest speed, while Russia, too, still possesses very strong political influence worldwide.

In the long run, the US core interest is related to the question of whether or not it is capable of maintaining its supremacy and a positive hegemony, Pax Americana, in world politics, or whether it will have to give in to a multipolar system, where the world will be divided into spheres of interest between the emerging rival hegemonies. Such a world would probably resemble Samuel Huntington's "clash of civilizations" much more than the present world.[7] This is also a crucial question for Europe's destiny, because ultimately it is Europe that will have to decide whether it will share the Western hegemony with the US, or break it, pushing the world towards a multipolar system.

There are reasons to believe, though, that if Europe chooses the multipolar system, it will be on the losing side. Why is this so? First, the internal tensions within Europe can barely compete with Iran and India, and much less so with the highly centralized poles of the US, Russia and China. An alarming piece of evidence suggesting this is the nature of European diplomacy, which continues to be dominated by ad hoc reactive policies instead of proactive or long-term strategic unity. Secondly, Europe seems to lack continuity in its foreign policy. The US has been often criticized for short-sightedness in its foreign policy, resulting from the four-year cycle in presidential elections. In fact, the European cycle is far shorter, because the Union chairmanship rotates on a half year basis, in the addition to all the national elections in the member states. Thirdly, in a crisis situation Europe still lacks military muscle and firm command, as witnessed in the recent Balkan wars.

These weaknesses of Europe do not, of course, predestine Europe's fate forever, since there has in fact been movement towards solutions in all the identified problem areas. However, Europe is still clearly unprepared to drive the world towards a multipolar system. For the time being, tt is in Europe's best interest to contribute to a US-led world order, however "unipolar" it may be. In the long run it may be in Europe's interest to seek more influence and thereby equality with the US, but as the US generally has only a positive attitude towards such strengthening of Europe's position (i.e. European ability to stand for itself), such emancipation of Europe as an equal player to the US should not be performed through a confrontation with the US.
What could be done?

The "West," as a power bloc, has moved further west and it seems that the "West" is today essentially a synonym for the US and its current supporters. This has given rise to a new possibility for continental Europe to assume an opposing role. Some Europeans indeed have shown willingness to adopt such a role, but solemn will is not enough: The Europeans lack the means to challenge the US in political influence, economic power or military might in the foreseeable future.

Turning against America would leave Europe without strategic US protection in the event that Europe should have need of it again. Russia may not be a serious threat to Europe today, except indirectly, but, to its neighbors, especially in the Caucasus region, Russia still poses a threat. Indirectly, Russia has been trying to stop the advance of NATO and the EU in its "backyard," and there are many signals that Russia would try once again to expand its sphere of influence as soon as it has gained back its previous strength. Besides the southern front in Central Asia, the Caucasus and the Middle East, the threat may reappear also on the Western front, concerning especially those states which have remained outside the Atlantic structures, i.e. Finland, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, and the South Caucasus. However, in the event that NATO loses significance due to disputes, or degenerates into a mere discussion forum, the threat may again encompass all the countries between "the Old Europe" and Russia, from Finland to Turkey.

Continued anti-Americanism could also result in the US disengaging from the rest of the world, in a neo-isolationistic way, which could lead to dangerous, even catastrophic consequences. Anti-Americanism is deeply corrosive to a relationship that is critically important for the overall security of the world. If America is criticized in an irrational and emotional way, the outcome will be a US disengagement from the transatlantic pact and Europe's marginalization in global politics. In the long run, US isolationism could be more dangerous to everybody than American involvement or interventionism.

One way to avoid the most devastating effects of such a development to European security, while trying to answer the basic reasons behind the anti-American mood, might be a strategy of truly reforming European conceptions of security cooperation and revision of the role of the NATO. NATO actually ceased to be "North Atlantic" a long time ago. Meanwhile, the US interests increasingly lie outside of the northeastern coasts of the Atlantic. Rival blocks which cannot be expected to accept American hegemony, will most probably emerge under the leadership of China and Russia, while "new threats" of instability will be concentrated in the crescent from North Africa through the Middle East to South Asia.[8]

This would call for a three-pillar security structure for the support of a Western supremacy, extended from a Pax Americana to a Pax Occidentalis. The American pillar would be Pan-American, consisting of the US, Canada and Latin America. The Western Eurasian pillar would essentially consist of a European common security policy (based on NATO), with an increasing emphasis on the eastern and Mediterranean flanks of Europe - highlighting the role played by countries such as Spain, Turkey, Romania, Poland and Finland. The Pacific pillar would balance the growing Chinese power in the Pacific rimlands of eastern and southeastern Asia, from Japan to Thailand, Indonesia and Australia. Furthermore, the US would probably need to develop a southern dimension of this global security structure, linking Turkey and Europe, through Muslim allies (like Morocco, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Pakistan) with India and the southeastern Asia. Obviously, a fundamental reform in Iran would be about the best thing that could happen for a stable Pax to become a reality.

Many may argue that such a global security framework might seriously alarm the obvious rivals, Russia and China. However, the fundamental difference between such a unipolar Western hegemony with some elements of genuine multipolarism is that in the former system the Western economic, political and military supremacy efficiently contains aggressive efforts by rivals to disrupt the order, while in a genuinely multipolar system there would be an endless power struggle between the poles, plaguing all the frontier zones, "fault lines" and the edges of the spheres of interest with continuous instability, externally fed subversion and terrorism.
Concluding remarks

As with any problem, the finding of a solution starts with the recognition that there is a problem. Europe and the US have been drifting apart since the Cold war was won. It took a while for both continents to recognize this. The wars in the Balkans, the war in Afghanistan and finally the war in Iraq have shown this clearly.

The transatlantic drift seems to cause more trouble in Europe than in the US. It is a problem for Europe if the US no longer considers it necessary to listen to what Europe has to say. America is acting globally, and it may be nowadays more interested in China, Russia or Pakistan than in some issues that are important for Western Europeans. In conclusion, it is desirable for Europe to balance the disparity of power between the US and Europe, but it would be most irresponsible and inconsiderate for Europe to choose a path leading to multipolarism and confrontation with the US, instead of co-operation.

In fact, the bilateral relations with the US of such European statesmen as Anders Fogh Rasmussen and Tony Blair have shown that Europeans can actually influence America. For the first time, Finland has also explicated the necessity of maintaining a friendly and effective transatlantic relationship in the government program of Matti Vanhanen's government. Other European governments have been moving in the same direction. Moderate statesmen like Fogh Rasmussen and Blair can greatly contribute to improving the transatlantic relations, but in the long run, the model they have shown in bilateral relations should be extended to the common European foreign and security policy, since only with a united voice can Europe be strong and be heard and respected in the way it actually wants.

Summa summarum, what should be done now is the following:
1) Recognize that there is a drift.
2) Recognize that Europe would not be what it is without the American contribution.
3) Actively challenge anti-American stands; remind the audience of the cultural and ideological roots that America stands for, so that values such as liberty are not considered empty slogans in Europe, and such absurd statements as "America has no culture" are not taken as seriously.
4) Stop to look at the whole picture from a distance in order to form a consistent, balanced and objective view of the world, with some recognition of the proportions.

When Sir Winston Churchill had to resign due to his weakened health in 1955, he gave his ministers two pieces of advice: "Man is spirit," and "Never be separated from the Americans."[9] This is good advice, indeed.

Mr. Jokinen (christian.jokinen @ utu.fi), Master of Science, is a researcher within the Research Unit for Conflicts and Terrorism at the University of Turku, Finland. His colleague, Mr. Anssi Kullberg, Master of Science, has contributed to the article.

[1] Anssi Kullberg: Kaukasia geopoliittisen toiminnan näyttämönä. Kaukasian alueen geopoliittista tarkastelua läntisten, venäläisten, turkkilaisten ja iranilaisten intressien ristipaineessa. University of Jyväskylä, 17 Jan. 2003, p. 33-41, 60-61, 155-160, 174-195.

[2] Jean-François Revel: La obsesión antiamericana: Dinámica, causas e incongruencias. Barcelona, Tendencias, 2003. See also Samuel Huntington: The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. New York, Simon & Schuster, 1996, p. 56-59.

[3] Robert Kagan: Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order. London, Atlantic Books, 2003, p. 27-42, 113-121.

[4]Sir Halford Mackinder: The Geographical Pivot of History, Geographical Journal, 23, 1904; Geoffrey Sloan: Sir Halford Mackinder: The Heartland Theory Then and Now, in Colin S. Gray & Geoffrey Sloan (eds.): Geopolitics: Geography and Strategy. Frank Cass Publishers, Chippenham, 1999.

[5] Antero Leitzinger: Lännen lyhyt historia, 4/5, Vapaasana.net, 13 Oct. 2003.

[6] Felipe Fernández-Armesto, Millennium. Toinen vuosituhat. WSOY, Porvoo 1996, see especially p. 771-803, 864-865.

[7] Huntington: The Clash of Civilizations, 1996.

[8] Pekka Visuri: Maailmanpolitiikan muutos: Arvio syksyn 2001 terrori-iskujen vaikutuksista. EVA, Vantaa, 2002, p. 109-113.

[9] Martin Gilbert: Winston S. Churchill, Bungway, London, 1988.

fantassin
07-17-2004, 06:55 AM
Look no further than where this article is coming from:

Published originally in Turkish Policy Quarterly, June 2004,

http://www.turkishpolicy.com


-Bush said he wanted Turkey to join the EU

-The EU is not all that keen to welcome millions of Turks (ask the Germans what they think of them) and Chirac tells Bush Europe does not tell the US how to deal with Mexico so he'd better not dwell into that sort of business

-To say thank you, the Turks write nice articles about nasty EU which does not want to fall in line behind Uncle Sam

Enough said.

2RHPZ
07-17-2004, 07:25 AM
Look no further than where this article is coming from:

Published originally in Turkish Policy Quarterly, June 2004,

http://www.turkishpolicy.com

-Bush said he wanted Turkey to join the EU

-The EU is not all that keen to welcome millions of Turks (ask the Germans what they think of them) and Chirac tells Bush Europe does not tell the US how to deal with Mexico so he'd better not dwell into that sort of business

-To say thank you, the Turks write nice articles about nasty EU which does not want to fall in line behind Uncle Sam

Enough said.

Well, I agree that this article was published in Turkey for some reasons, but I am on doubt that this was an intention, order or something. BTW, it was written by Finish guys. After all emotions the facts still remain here: Europe is sick and weak ... My personal opinion is that Anti-Americanism is based on envy. There is nothing but envy ...

Ahriman
07-17-2004, 07:48 AM
I thought the article made some good points.

Europe is less relevent in world politics now then it has been since the times of the Greek and Roman Empires. The article does not say that the EU is "bad" or "nasty", in fact it sees the EU as a necessary part of world order. It clearly says that a stronger EU is beneficial as it can handle problems in it's region rather then relying on US intervention.

The article just seems to council against the EU countering every American move to the extent that the US just leaves the rest of the world to deal with any problems that arise.

kris777
07-17-2004, 09:12 AM
CAG 147 when you refer to Europe as "sick and weak" which countries are you referring to; every one? :|

oldsoak
07-17-2004, 09:29 AM
Referring to Europe as "sick and weak" is not going encourage Europe to pop in for tea.

moughoun
07-17-2004, 09:34 AM
It use to be the case where the US did the bombing and Europe paid to rebuild, maybe he is just pissed that we aren't going to pay for their little adventures anymore

2RHPZ
07-17-2004, 09:46 AM
CAG 147 when you refer to Europe as "sick and weak" which countries are you referring to; every one? :|

Except UK. Poland is doing good also. Another Central EU countries forgot very quickly the times of oppression. Don´t blame for my opinion, but bring any evidence of strong Europe, the real eveidence ... there is nothing ... without U.S. we would lost current war that people around EU haven´t understood yet ... they put their heads to the sand and think that war is too far away. Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schröder would learn Daladier lesson from 1938. He stated after the return from Germany: "I save the peace". Instead of that his act started the biggest mankind atrocity ever. Unfortunatelly Europe will follow current direction and I know that, sooner or later, everybody over here will regret such cowardly times we are living now.

-Max2-
07-17-2004, 09:55 AM
Except UK. Poland is doing good also. Another Central EU countries forgot very quickly the times of oppression. Don´t blame for my opinion, but bring any evidence of strong Europe, the real eveidence ... there is nothing ... without U.S. we would lost current war that people around EU haven´t understood yet ... they put their heads to the sand and think that war is too far away. Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schröder would learn Daladier lesson from 1938. He stated after the return from Germany: "I save the peace". Instead of that his act started the biggest mankind atrocity ever. Unfortunatelly Europe will follow current direction and I know that, sooner or later, everybody over here will regret such cowardly times we are living now.

:roll:

And what Europe should do according to you ?

Saranof
07-17-2004, 09:55 AM
CAG 147 when you refer to Europe as "sick and weak" which countries are you referring to; every one? :|

Except UK. Poland is doing good also. Another Central EU countries forgot very quickly the times of oppression. Don´t blame for my opinion, but bring any evidence of strong Europe, the real eveidence ... there is nothing ... without U.S. we would lost current war that people around EU haven´t understood yet ... they put their heads to the sand and think that war is too far away. Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schröder would learn Daladier lesson from 1938. He stated after the return from Germany: "I save the peace". Instead of that his act started the biggest mankind atrocity ever. Unfortunatelly Europe will follow current direction and I know that, sooner or later, everybody over here will regret such cowardly times we are living now.


Sick and week..

Hmm..

As of what I rembember from 2 days ago, Norway and Sweden were at the top of the best countrys to live in list.

It's not that people hate you as a people, it's because of things like this that we get pissed of. "Old Europe" or "Sick and weak". Stop saying things like that, and bombing places, and people might starts to like you as a nation.

mack pl
07-17-2004, 10:13 AM
go, Norway and Sweden were at the top of the best countrys to live in list. Im guess CAG wasn't talk about economy, and live standards, but about politic.



It's not that people hate you as a people, it's because of things like this that we get pissed of. "Old Europe" or "Sick and weak". Stop saying things like that, and bombing places, and people might starts to like you as a nation.He is not American, but Czech, If you dont know that.. :roll:


Ps. No, im not his lawyer or spokesman :lol:

zdarec CAG :)

2RHPZ
07-17-2004, 10:24 AM
go, Norway and Sweden were at the top of the best countrys to live in list. Im guess CAG wasn't talk about economy, and live standards, but about politic.



It's not that people hate you as a people, it's because of things like this that we get pissed of. "Old Europe" or "Sick and weak". Stop saying things like that, and bombing places, and people might starts to like you as a nation.He is not American, but Czech, If you dont know that.. :roll:


Ps. No, im not his lawyer :lol:

zdarec CAG :)

Thanx Mack. BTW, I am so sorry for delay with latest payment . Please, check your bank account in two days, it won´t happen again. :lol:



[quote=Saranof] go, Norway and Sweden were at the top of the best countrys to live in list. Im guess CAG wasn't talk about economy, and live standards, but about politic.

Yes, of course, I didn´t speak about such matters. I have some friends - Swedes - I know that you live in (socialistic) paradise.


And what Europe should do according to you ?

Start to protect our civilization, our values. Message for them who are object to is only one ... http://img6.exs.cx/img6/6628/snipersmilie.gif
[/img]

Pille1234
07-17-2004, 11:29 AM
Start to protect our civilization, our values. Message for them who are object to is only one ... http://img6.exs.cx/img6/6628/snipersmilie.gif
I fully agree with you. Question is, was Iraq a thread to our civilization (since you refered to Hitler and appeasement)? In fact he wasn't, while the real (terror) threads increased. Europe sick and weak? No, but Europe is not a fan of destabilizing adventures, although there're good reasons to try to change the middle east.

Midav
07-17-2004, 12:54 PM
Very interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

kinghk
07-18-2004, 06:16 PM
As of what I rembember from 2 days ago, Norway and Sweden were at the top of the best countrys to live in list.

From a UN point of view ofcourse. Living in Norway and Sweden is okay, if you like to pay an assload of money in tax, ****** discrimination is OK if is suits the womens, getting social benefits for being to lazy to work etc.

martinexsquaddie
07-19-2004, 01:29 AM
Go europe

jedisponge
07-19-2004, 05:02 AM
great read; it points out many things that i was thinking.

i admit that i might be biased in some things, and that i'm full of pride that i am american. we are a great country, full of great people. unfortunately, as with any group, there are bad apples. but that doesn't change the fact that we are full of courageous people. and while everyone else might view our country as corrupt because of our politicians (and i'm sure some of our politicians are corrpt), it doesn't mean that the rest of the population is. we're all taught here that our freedoms are important, and when we grow up it's instilled in us. we all want to be the next astronaut, pro sports player, singer, artist etc., but as we grow up we look around and realize how lucky we are. that's why we have young, and not so young ( :D )soldiers going off trying to help. i can guarentee you that 99%+ of the people who join our armed forces has atleast somewhere on their agenda the want to help people, whether it be our own countrymen or some foreign land in need of help. and you'll also notice that the majority of US posters on the board say how bad the abu prison scandal was, and how not all of us are like that, only to be eclisped the minority posters saying how evil we are, how we're satan, the black of the earth.

i don't think many people in the rest of the world realizes what we're doing. we're sending our lives, our futures to help you. we've sent our young men off for almost 100 years to help, from europe to korea to kuwait. think of what these people, who died for YOUR country could've been. cure to aids? cure to the cold? discoverer of hyperspaceganja technology? what about the people who were saved from your countries? accomplished musicians, fathers, mothers, scientists. how many more would've perished if it wasn't for us? it angers me to think that the hundreds of thousands we've sent off to help in the world wars, the cold war, only to be spat on, graves desecrated, memories distained.

and yet, the whole world goes off to the moon and says how evil we are when a US serviceman or woman for doing something as evil as rape, when a citizen of that country commits the same crime (and which occurs more frequently), i doubt you'll hear about if it didn't happen in your country.

imagine if we pulled out of every place we are deployed to. it would be bad for us and everywhere else. do you really think al qaeda will pack its bags and dissappear? do you really think that all terrorism will stop? do you really think that a nearby neighboring country won't invade yours? the point is the world needs us just as we need the rest of the world. at this point in my young life of 18 years, i've already grown tired of these remarks of the next nazi-like organization.

part me wants to give up, demand all our forward deployed military to come back home and go back to their interupted lives where they're also needed. yet the nerd side of me doesn't, the side that loved starwars and grew up wanting to be jedi to help save the galaxy, turning into wanting to contribute what small amount i can to make the world a better place as i grew up.

you really want us to pull out? what happened after ww1? our contributions were in nay, we go back to isolationism, another world war develops. though i doubt it, it just might happen again one day. what will happen when that happens? hopefully, we won't see.

szr
07-19-2004, 05:56 AM
People say they don't hate America, just Bush, but we've always been dealing with anti-Americanism ..far longer than just the last 4 years.

People will give all sorts of long convoluted explanations of their beef with the US, but I've never been convinced that it's really anything more than simple hatred of the biggest kid in the school yard or the nerdy kid with the good grades.

It's kinda like how all baseball fans not from NY, hate the Yankees. Ya.. I really do feel it's that simple. Not much we can really do about that kind of hatred. It just is.

We'd have to prostrate ourselves before the world, for opinions to change. To hell with the world, if that what it takes.

The few real friends we have in the world, are quality ones. We're lucky to have them, and I would take them over broadbased general approval, anyday.

I feel sorry for the US Olympic athletes, this year.

Edit: And I don't hate the world. I love traveling, and there are friendly people everywhere, but I get annoyed with the random hate, just "because they're america!"

cut
07-19-2004, 07:17 AM
In my experience, Europe is no more anti-american now then it was 15 years ago. This whole anti-american thing comes across as media hype, especially from the american media.

The only differences are Bush, universally disliked, and 9/11 which caused the american media to look outside of america. Then the media took this anti-american feeling (which I would compare to the way americans feel about canadians) and blew out of proportion.

BlackRain
07-19-2004, 08:26 AM
The only differences are Bush, universally disliked, and 9/11 which caused the american media to look outside of america. Then the media took this anti-american feeling (which I would compare to the way americans feel about canadians) and blew out of proportion.


ANTI-AMERICANISM IN EUROPE

Introduction

As the diplomatic relations between the United States and some of its traditional European allies grew strained after September 11, so too did the attitudes of Europeans regarding the United States decline considerably. Positive opinions of the United States dropped in France from 62 percent in 1999/2000 to 43 percent in June 2003, as reported by the Pew Global Attitudes Project (discussed in chapter 1). In Germany
the fall was even more dramatic, from 78 percent to 45 percent, and in Spain, from 50 percent to 38 percent. One can clearly conclude that large majorities in key Western European countries have ceased to be positively predisposed to the United States.

Several objective and strategic factors help explain this growth in anti-Americanism. The collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war have meant that Western Europe no longer needs the protection of U.S. troops, which in turn makes a public anti-American rhetoric more permissible than in the past. In addition, as the United States emerged as the single superpower (a tendency long before 1989 but only explicit after
the demise of the Soviet empire), it became a more obvious target; Europeans could resent American power more while also paradoxically expecting the United States to shoulder more international responsibilities.

In retrospect, the period between the fall of the Berlin wall on November 9, 1989, and the terrorist attacks in Washington, D.C., and New York City on September 11, 2001, can be viewed as a transition period in the emergence of a new international system, including a profound transformation of European attitudes toward the United States.

The United States responded to terrorism robustly with the wars against the Taliban and against Saddam Hussein. Although a minority of Europeans genuinely supported these wars, there was also extensive opposition, based on an underlying inclination toward a policy of appeasement. This difference heightened tensions across the Atlantic. For the United States, September 11 indicated the need for strategies to reduce security threats. For many Europeans, September 11 was taken as evidence of how American behavior elicits hostility and how it would therefore be up to Americans to repent and change their ways. September 11 and its aftermath proved to be a turning point in European anti-Americanism, which has become an increasingly open and acceptable attitude.

Yet this transformation of European attitudes regarding the United States would not have been as pointed had it not been for another factor, related to the strategic post–cold war changes. As the process of European unification progressed, anti-Americanism proved to be a useful ideology for the definition of a new European identity.

Currently, the main way Europe defines itself as European is precisely by underscoring its difference from the United States. To be sure, this is not the only way to define Europe, nor must it remain that way in the future. If the European political class were to speak out more forcefully against anti-Americanism, other understandings of “Europe” might be possible.

Yet in the meantime, treating the United States as the alternative to Europe—rather than as a partner— retains considerable attraction.

Writing in February 2002, after the success of the Afghanistan war, the author Salman Rushdie commented: “Anybody who has visited Britain and Europe, or followed the public conversation there during the past five months, will have been struck, even shocked, by the depth of anti-American feeling among large segments of the population, as well as the news media. Western anti-Americanism is an altogether more petulant
phenomenon than its Islamic counterpart and, oddly, far more personalized. Muslim countries don’t like America’s power, its ‘arrogance,’ its success; in the non-American West, the main objection seems to be to American people.”1 Anti-Americanism, in other words, may take this or that policy dispute as a pretext for criticism about the United States.

European anti-Americanism, however, involves a hostility that goes far beyond specific policies and entails a much larger and generalized disdain for America and Americans. It has elements of ideology and obsession; it is cultural and irrational; and it is likely to remain a feature of relations between the United States and Europe for the foreseeable future.

Particularly in the cultural elite, but by no means only there, the animosity toward the United States is deep. As celebrated German theater director Peter Zadek has put it with admirable clarity: “I think that it is cowardly that many people distinguish between the American people and the current American administration. The Bush administration was more or less democratically elected, and it had the support of the majority of Americans in its Iraq war. One can therefore be against the Americans, just as most of the world was against the Germans in the Second World War. In this sense, I am an anti-American. This one example stands for many instances of the European culture of anti-Americanism. This book explores various dimensions of contemporary European anti-Americanism. Because anti-Americanism is a cultural problem—albeit with enormous consequences for policy— the tools of cultural analysis are necessary to understand it.

Chapter 1 examines several recent surveys in order to determine
the quantitative scope of anti-American sentiment, especially since September 11. The focus is on Germany, the key continental European ally during the cold war but also the site of the initial dispute over Iraq policy. German attitudes to the United States are interesting in various ways: the positive image of the United States has declined there more rapidly than in other European countries, whereas on various cultural questions, the Germans (or the West Germans, at least) are more like Americans than other Europeans. German anti-Americanism has features
that are peculiarly German, as well as epitomizing a larger European phenomenon.

Because anti-Americanism is so much a matter of culture, the subsequent chapters examine various cultural traditions, intellectual historical lineages, and the attitudes of members of the cultural elite.

Chapter 2 describes how anti-Americanism goes beyond rational debates over policy—a critic of this or that American policy is hardly necessarily an anti-American—and takes on an obsessive character. Anti-Americanism operates like a prejudice and a stereotype in the sense that it is impervious to rational arguments or factual proof.

In general, European anti-Americanism has deep cultural roots, stretching back for centuries. The discovery of a “new world” challenged the European worldview and self-understanding, leading to various preconceptions about America: too violent, too democratic, too powerful.

In addition, this chapter suggests a typology of three different variants of anti-Americanism: a predemocratic cultural elitism that dismisses American mass culture; the antidemocratic legacy of the Communist attacks on the United States, left over from the cold war; and a postdemocratic resentment that the United States retains an independence and sovereignty while the European nations submit increasingly to transnational forms of governance.

Chapter 3 examines the shape of anti-Americanism in the debates over the Iraq war. The sudden rage that erupted against the United States in major Western European cities, examined closely, is symptomatic of the emerging European identity. Although critics of the war regularly warned against upheavals around the world, it was primarily in Western Europe that anti-American demonstrators took to the streets. By supporting a policy of appeasement toward Saddam Hussein and opposing
the democratization of Iraq, the Europeans, in the streets and in some governments, shed light on the political substance at stake.

Their reluctance to criticize authoritarian regimes has led them to a position hostile to any “regime change.” Indeed, for European anti-Americanism, no regime is so bad that it could ever warrant supporting the United States in bringing that regime to an end: not in Serbia, not in Afghanistan, and not in Iraq.

Chapter 4 explores the roots of anti-Americanism in this reluctance to criticize bad regimes for fear of siding with the United States. The historical and metaphorical frame around the two Iraq wars—the comparison of Saddam and Hitler—turns out to be quite illuminating on this point. When all is said and done, the world did not rush to oppose either dictator; on the contrary, appeasement and a certain reality denial defined the relationship to Nazi Germany as much as it did to Saddam’s
Iraq. For Western Europeans, and perhaps for many others, it has always been more comfortable to ignore the violence of totalitarian states.

Because the United States sets a higher moral standard in a way that causes discomfort to the appeasers, it becomes the target of resentment: another source of anti-Americanism.

The fifth and final chapter looks at another variation of anti-Americanism: the movement against globalization. Antiglobalization has become the most prominent form of anticapitalism since the collapse of Communism.

As post-Communist anticapitalism, it overlaps considerably with anti-Americanism. This chapter examines the rhetoric of anti-Americanism in the writings of the French philosopher and social theorist Jean Baudrillard and the Indian author Arundhati Roy; Roy’s anti-American writings have been widely circulated in Western Europe in the context of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Both writers lodge the critique of the United States within frameworks of antiglobalization.

Their positions are contrasted with an alternative judgment from an earlier historical period, that of the German philosopher Theodor Adorno, some of whose writings on the legacy of Nazi Germany explore the overlap between anti-Americanism and antimodernization. Adorno suggests that the greater orientation toward democratic and free market structures in England and America explains their historical willingness
to confront totalitarianism, just as continental European statism contributed to a predisposition to collaboration. This thesis implies that contemporary Western European anti-Americanism is not just a response to U.S. policies in Afghanistan and Iraq but a much deeper rejection of those free market principles that Germans sometimes call “American conditions.”

Anti-Americanism is not going to disappear in Western Europe overnight. The debate that erupted in the wake of September 11 has not been just a friendly disagreement. A deep divide has emerged. This book is intended as a contribution to understanding this important ideological challenge.

Source: http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/books/fulltext/antiamer/xi.pdf

cut
07-19-2004, 09:02 AM
what's that supposed to mean? You can't think of anything to say so you post an article?

Obviously the french were offended by the whole freedom fries episode, but anti-americanism in France didn't increase all that much. The US media was the one going overboard on the whole thing exacerbaiting Bush's unpresidential comments.

In my last post I said over the past 15 years.. 15 years ago was 1989, read the article if you still don't know what I mean.

Like many other sources of information you bring up, this article bunches together the war in Iraq with the war on terrorism, I think all europeans will agree that the war in Iraq was not in our opinion a fight against terrorists (although it has created new ones that we are now fighting).

This article says a minority of european countries took part in the two wars following 9/11. This is misleading a majority of European countries took part in the war against terror. This is often overlooked by the americans who seek to make an enemy out of France.

OldRecon
07-19-2004, 09:43 AM
Just reading the heading of this thread makes me wanna scream

"Off course it's all our fault" :backhand:

We're quite content with supporting you in Afghanistan cause Al Qaida is a common enemy (even the French help you there).
We're not so "sheepflock" with regards to Iraq though, because of the harebrained character of the scheme (and because it draws away resources from the fight against the most dangerous long term enemy). Not because of any endemic anti-americanisms in particular.
As for the "anti-americanists" here, don't be surprised if a lot of them love rock'n roll, are regular Coke drinkers & good customers at Mc Donald's rofl rofl.
So it's not that simple as "either / or" (if you get the point).

OldRecon
07-19-2004, 09:47 AM
Edit double post

oldsoak
07-19-2004, 10:07 AM
I wouldnt say Europe is anymore anti American than its ever been. It was probably far more anti American during the Vietnam war era than it is now.

BlackRain
07-19-2004, 10:18 AM
what's that supposed to mean? You can't think of anything to say so you post an article?

Obviously the french were offended by the whole freedom fries episode, but anti-americanism in France didn't increase all that much. The US media was the one going overboard on the whole thing exacerbaiting Bush's unpresidential comments.

In my last post I said over the past 15 years.. 15 years ago was 1989, read the article if you still don't know what I mean.

Like many other sources of information you bring up, this article bunches together the war in Iraq with the war on terrorism, I think all europeans will agree that the war in Iraq was not in our opinion a fight against terrorists (although it has created new ones that we are now fighting).

This article says a minority of european countries took part in the two wars following 9/11. This is misleading a majority of European countries took part in the war against terror. This is often overlooked by the americans who seek to make an enemy out of France.

I posted the article by an American Ivy Leaque college to illustrate what scholars believe is the source of European Anti-Americanism.

Your response highlights the European disconnect with American views on terrorism (e.g. "war in Iraq with the war on terrorism"). We disagree.

"Most french were offended by the whole freedom fries episode", this is an American reaction to the French having large demonstrations and protests where Bush is depicted as a Nazi and a terrorist. You have not seen the scale and breadth of protests and visible hatred in the USA against Europe as was seen prior to the War in Iraq. We can not understand it.

Many see Chirac playing on the unpopularity of the war to advance his EU-centric policies rather than being truly horrified of the prospect of Saddam being removed from power.

RS_Leo1A5
07-19-2004, 11:16 AM
"Most french were offended by the whole freedom fries episode", this is an American reaction to the French having large demonstrations and protests where Bush is depicted as a Nazi and a terrorist.
In fact all of my friends here in Germany found that "Freedom Fries" thing rather funny.
I mean, pommes frites were invented in Belgium! I don't even know why the Americans call them "French Fries"...

This is not meant as an offense, just the opinion many Europeans had:
"Those ignorant Americans. They don't even know who they insult with their actions."

BlackRain
07-19-2004, 12:19 PM
Something similar happened in the WWI era. America tried to "de-Germanize" some familar terms.

American's renamed the Frankfurter the "Hotdog" despite the American origin of the meal.

The town I once lived in was "German Valley" until it was renamed "Long Valley".

Most American's still call them "french fries" but wanted to "de-French" the term. Not that renaming a heart-attack inducing meal would affect the French economy in the slightest way. It was more symbolic.

2Sheds_Jackson
07-19-2004, 12:50 PM
If you ask me, the most interesting tidbit in the article was this:


Due to Europe's military weakness, Europe has to rely on diplomacy and "soft-power" tools like economic influence. The consequence of this is that Europe has a greater tolerance for today's threats and at times a greater risk for denial, as Mr. Kagan quite vividly shows. On the other hand the US has the power and the capacity to try to "fix" these problems. These differences are grounded in a practical reality that is another consequence of the disparity of power and the structure of the present international order.

I think that's key to understanding Europe's position. They're much closer to the tiger, so they're less likely to poke at him. Also, when something does need to be done - who gets the call, and why?

Europe gets to be a glorious place to live - plenty of money for cradle-to-grave social programs - well funded state medical systems - free or reduced cost education, - top of the "best places to live" lists etc.. And when the sh*t hits the fan, Europe calls in the Americans, because Europe has no money for a properly sized military force. It's all been spent on social programs.

When America has to militarily assist Europe, does Europe reciprocate by paying for our kids to go to college? Pay our medical bills? Nope.

Thus Europe gets to be the high-minded, sophisticated society, while they quickly forget about all the dirty work that America has to shoulder to provide security and stability. Must be nice.

It's enough to make a country think hard about pulling the carpet out from under & see how well Europe can provide for 100% of their own requirements, security included. But that won't happen, all the old money wants to stay at the top of those "best places to live" lists.

cut
07-19-2004, 02:19 PM
what's that supposed to mean? You can't think of anything to say so you post an article?

Obviously the french were offended by the whole freedom fries episode, but anti-americanism in France didn't increase all that much. The US media was the one going overboard on the whole thing exacerbaiting Bush's unpresidential comments.

In my last post I said over the past 15 years.. 15 years ago was 1989, read the article if you still don't know what I mean.

Like many other sources of information you bring up, this article bunches together the war in Iraq with the war on terrorism, I think all europeans will agree that the war in Iraq was not in our opinion a fight against terrorists (although it has created new ones that we are now fighting).

This article says a minority of european countries took part in the two wars following 9/11. This is misleading a majority of European countries took part in the war against terror. This is often overlooked by the americans who seek to make an enemy out of France.

I posted the article by an American Ivy Leaque college to illustrate what scholars believe is the source of European Anti-Americanism.

Your response highlights the European disconnect with American views on terrorism (e.g. "war in Iraq with the war on terrorism"). We disagree.

"Most french were offended by the whole freedom fries episode", this is an American reaction to the French having large demonstrations and protests where Bush is depicted as a Nazi and a terrorist. You have not seen the scale and breadth of protests and visible hatred in the USA against Europe as was seen prior to the War in Iraq. We can not understand it.

Many see Chirac playing on the unpopularity of the war to advance his EU-centric policies rather than being truly horrified of the prospect of Saddam being removed from power.

The article agrees with me it's been around since 1989, although there are still faults in it like I said. Just because it's from an Ivy League college doesn't make it infallible.

yes, Chirac has played on the unpopularity of the war, but the Bush administration played on the fact that France was not going to war in Iraq to make it seem they were somehow supporting terrorists. So Chirac is no worse then his right-wing collegues across the pond. ;)

2RHPZ
07-19-2004, 02:37 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

Midav
07-19-2004, 03:24 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

That's a very good point. Much like some Romanian friends I had in Germany. They had lived under the Ceausescu rule. After the first gulf war they said that the US needs to get rid of Saddam. They really hated the guy and I never quite understood why.

Now it all falls into place....

OB Kenobi
07-19-2004, 03:33 PM
Anti-Earthism in America.

martinexsquaddie
07-19-2004, 05:07 PM
well if the war against terror had been finished in afghanistan first.
big probelms with iraq
no wmds found
no links with aq
but plenty of al q there now :(
unfortunatly there is no big threat to europe requiring help from uncle sam so no real need to tow bush's line.
terrorism does'nt need a cag to deal with
and if your such great allies
HOW THE **** DID YOU ALLOW TERRORISTS TO RAISE FUNDS AND SHIP ARMS TO IRELAND cheers for that :(

budanski
07-19-2004, 05:30 PM
well if the war against terror had been finished in afghanistan first.


I guess we should'nt have invaded Normady in 1944, because we sure hadn't finished the job in Italy or in the Pacific.

I guess Grant shouldn't have taken Vicksburg for another two years, then, because the North still hadn't defeated Robert E. Lee in the east.

Heck, we shouldn't even have bothered with Hitler until we defeated Japan first. After all, they were the ones that attacked us first, not the Germans.

Secret Squirrel
07-19-2004, 05:36 PM
well if the war against terror had been finished in afghanistan first.


I guess we should'nt have invaded Normady in 1944, because we sure hadn't finished the job in Italy or in the Pacific.

I guess Grant shouldn't have taken Vicksburg for another two years, then, because the North still hadn't defeated Robert E. Lee in the east.

Heck, we shouldn't even have bothered with Hitler until we defeated Japan first. After all, they were the ones that attacked us first, not the Germans.

So you think Iraq ( before the invasion ) was another front on the war on terror? :roll: Also, just wondering why you're trying to compare conventional wars to the war on terror? Or has Bush's "world war" phrase gotten to you too (though at least Bush stopped calling it "the crusades" after someone gave him a quick history lesson) ? ;)

cut
07-19-2004, 05:36 PM
well if the war against terror had been finished in afghanistan first.


I guess we should'nt have invaded Normady in 1944, because we sure hadn't finished the job in Italy or in the Pacific.

I guess Grant shouldn't have taken Vicksburg for another two years, then, because the North still hadn't defeated Robert E. Lee in the east.

Heck, we shouldn't even have bothered with Hitler until we defeated Japan first. After all, they were the ones that attacked us first, not the Germans.

germany declared war on the US, Iraq didn't. Iraq could've and should've waited. Afterall the war on terrorism should be far more important.

cut
07-19-2004, 05:40 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

I grew up in the Soviet Union and I answered this thread :P

budanski
07-19-2004, 05:42 PM
well if the war against terror had been finished in afghanistan first.


I guess we should'nt have invaded Normady in 1944, because we sure hadn't finished the job in Italy or in the Pacific.

I guess Grant shouldn't have taken Vicksburg for another two years, then, because the North still hadn't defeated Robert E. Lee in the east.

Heck, we shouldn't even have bothered with Hitler until we defeated Japan first. After all, they were the ones that attacked us first, not the Germans.

germany declared war on the US, Iraq didn't. Iraq could've and should've waited. Afterall the war on terrorism should be far more important.
The Islamist terrorists have declared war on us just as surely as Germany or Japan did.

Some were have been in Florida prior to 9/11, dont for a moment think that they wouldnt have been in Iraq prior to the invasion.

And Iraq couldn't "have waited." It was the single most LIKELY place for terrorists to gain WMDs and/or money. This is especially true since (as we now know) we had already moved Kaddhafi off the dime. No, Iraq was indeed "Normandy" to Afghanistan's "Italy."

budanski
07-19-2004, 05:46 PM
well if the war against terror had been finished in afghanistan first.


I guess we should'nt have invaded Normady in 1944, because we sure hadn't finished the job in Italy or in the Pacific.

I guess Grant shouldn't have taken Vicksburg for another two years, then, because the North still hadn't defeated Robert E. Lee in the east.

Heck, we shouldn't even have bothered with Hitler until we defeated Japan first. After all, they were the ones that attacked us first, not the Germans.

So you think Iraq ( before the invasion ) was another front on the war on terror? :roll: Also, just wondering why you're trying to compare conventional wars to the war on terror? Or has Bush's "world war" phrase gotten to you too (though at least Bush stopped calling it "the crusades" after someone gave him a quick history lesson) ? ;)
The strategic significance of Iraq is vast. That alone is an excellent reason for us to have taken Iraq when we did.

The WOT is global. It is not a specific place, which means you have many "fronts." The idea that we have to fight the WOT on a serial basis, i.e., finish one task before moving to the next, is nonsense. Moreover, we are fighting a global enemy who has cells all over the world. The AQ bombings in Turkey, Bali, Spain, Kenya, etc. demonstrate that you can't focus on one physical location. Even if you get bin Laden, you still have to deal with the rest of AQ.

If Saddam were still in power, the US would be bogged down in maintaining the no-fly zones; the Oil for Food Program would still be operating fueling Saddam's aid to terrorists including AQ; Iraq would become more of a haven for AQ and other terrorists; and Saddam could purchase weapons from North Korea and provide them to terrorists to act as surrogates. We would have Iraq under Saddam followed by Uday and Qusay causing mayhem in the region for decades.

Iraq is part of the WOT. It has been listed on the State Department's report of state sponsors of terrorism for over a decade. After 9/11 containment was no longer an option for Saddam.

mack pl
07-19-2004, 06:00 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

I grew up in the Soviet Union and I answered this thread :P
are you Russian?

anyway, I agree with CAG, people from this part of Europe know something about living under strict rules etc. etc. :| So, maybe that why we are supporting this war(iraq, A-stan), and we are American allie....


Anti-Earthism in America.
Anti-OB Kenobism in Militaryphotos :roll:

Regards

cut
07-19-2004, 06:04 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

I grew up in the Soviet Union and I answered this thread :P
are you Russian?

anyway, I agree with CAG, people from this part of Europe know something about living under strict rules etc. etc. :| So, maybe that why we are supporting this war(iraq, A-stan), and we are American allie....


No, I'm English (although one of my great grandmothers was Welsh). Which at the time meant my family could not leave Moscow without 2 weeks notice and had other foreigners restrictions.

budanski
07-19-2004, 06:07 PM
Didnt your dad opened up that McDonalds in Moscow? *cough CIA front *cough ;)

Secret Squirrel
07-19-2004, 06:10 PM
[quote=martinexsquaddie]well if the war against terror had been finished in afghanistan first.


I guess we should'nt have invaded Normady in 1944, because we sure hadn't finished the job in Italy or in the Pacific.

I guess Grant shouldn't have taken Vicksburg for another two years, then, because the North still hadn't defeated Robert E. Lee in the east.

Heck, we shouldn't even have bothered with Hitler until we defeated Japan first. After all, they were the ones that attacked us first, not the Germans.

So you think Iraq ( before the invasion ) was another front on the war on terror? :roll: Also, just wondering why you're trying to compare conventional wars to the war on terror? Or has Bush's "world war" phrase gotten to you too (though at least Bush stopped calling it "the crusades" after someone gave him a quick history lesson) ? ;)


The strategic significance of Iraq is vast. That alone is an excellent reason for us to have taken Iraq when we did.

Ah now you may have hit the nail on the head (about time ;) ) Trumped up intelligence got the war rolling, once it starts it doesnt matter if the evidence is determined to be weak or non-existent. However, having a puppet state in the middle east with 5 borders is a very enticing acquisition.


The WOT is global. It is not a specific place, which means you have many "fronts." The idea that we have to fight the WOT on a serial basis, i.e., finish one task before moving to the next, is nonsense.

Whats wrong with finishing Ghanny instead of funneling resources away into a pre-emptive war? Why take the pressure off to start something else?


Moreover, we are fighting a global enemy who has cells all over the world. The AQ bombings in Turkey, Bali, Spain, Kenya, etc. demonstrate that you can't focus on one physical location. Even if you get bin Laden, you still have to deal with the rest of AQ.

Hrm, why wasnt more resources funneled to places where AQ was?


If Saddam were still in power, the US would be bogged down in maintaining the no-fly zones; the Oil for Food Program would still be operating fueling Saddam's aid to terrorists including AQ; Iraq would become more of a haven for AQ and other terrorists; and Saddam could purchase weapons from North Korea and provide them to terrorists to act as surrogates. We would have Iraq under Saddam followed by Uday and Qusay causing mayhem in the region for decades.

How many resources do think it took to enforce the no fly zone? Which aid to AQ are you refering to? Saddam was on friendly relations with North Korea? Both Uday and Qusay? Are you sure?


Iraq is part of the WOT. It has been listed on the State Department's report of state sponsors of terrorism for over a decade. After 9/11 containment was no longer an option for Saddam.

What other countries are listed as state sponors of terrorism? ;) After 9/11 containment was no longer an option? So basically you've made arguments that Iraq was invaded because of its location and as an act of revenge because of 9/11? I guess you'll be advocating an invasion of Iran soon?

cut
07-19-2004, 06:12 PM
Didnt your dad opened up that McDonalds in Moscow? *cough CIA front *cough ;)

Yep, well, funded it anyway.

Nice use of the search button, trying to dig up **** on me per chance? :P

mack pl
07-19-2004, 06:26 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

I grew up in the Soviet Union and I answered this thread :P
are you Russian?

anyway, I agree with CAG, people from this part of Europe know something about living under strict rules etc. etc. :| So, maybe that why we are supporting this war(iraq, A-stan), and we are American allie....


No, I'm English (although one of my great grandmothers was Welsh). Which at the time meant my family could not leave Moscow without 2 weeks notice and had other foreigners restrictions.
ohhh, ok. But thats mean, you havent got very big experience in living under regime... :roll:

nevermind, Im not antiamerican, so my contribution to this thread couldnt be constructive :lol:

Go USA !

;)

2RHPZ
07-19-2004, 06:36 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

I grew up in the Soviet Union and I answered this thread :P
are you Russian?

anyway, I agree with CAG, people from this part of Europe know something about living under strict rules etc. etc. :| So, maybe that why we are supporting this war(iraq, A-stan), and we are American allie....


No, I'm English (although one of my great grandmothers was Welsh). Which at the time meant my family could not leave Moscow without 2 weeks notice and had other foreigners restrictions.
ohhh, ok. But thats mean, you havent got very big experience in living under regime... :roll:

nevermind, Im not antiamerican, so my contribution to this thread couldnt be constructive :lol:

Go USA !

;)

Hey mate, thanx for support! http://img8.exs.cx/img8/258/4_17_209.gif

Zdarec,
CAG 147 http://img8.exs.cx/img8/3971/beret.gif

Anyway, thanx to all for contributions to this topic ... also to opponents

Tane Angle
07-19-2004, 06:41 PM
I think I have to disagree with the good chimp candidate on this one, sorry bud. There is no war on terror, there cannot be. It is impossible to attack each and every terrorist group at the same time. There can, however, be wars against specific groups. That is extremely viable.


I guess we should'nt have invaded Normady in 1944, because we sure hadn't finished the job in Italy or in the Pacific.

I guess Grant shouldn't have taken Vicksburg for another two years, then, because the North still hadn't defeated Robert E. Lee in the east.

Heck, we shouldn't even have bothered with Hitler until we defeated Japan first. After all, they were the ones that attacked us first, not the Germans.

Actually, there was a "Europe First" policy. Also, the Union was fighting the same Confederates, be it at Vicksburg or Richmond. Same entity. See my previous point about fighting specific groups, not a tactic. The same for WWII.

We simply don't have the numbers in terms of units with a few specific capabilities to be fighting too many campaigns. Better to do things fully against AQO than half-way in Iraq and against AQO. I'm not saying focus on one area, I'm saying focus on a small number of groups, not all terrorists.

There also isn't much such thing as an Islamist. To be honest, it's a really poor term that doesn't accurately and precisely decribe much of anything. There are violent, fundamentalist Whahabi militants. There are violent, fundamentalist Shiites (who can be further broken down into sects of Shiitism). Both groups are technically Islamists. However, they are extremely different and for decision-makers to view them as the same is dangerously naive and stupid.

Want to hit terrorist camps in Iraq? Fine by me. Shoot, have the 82nd Airborne and friends occupy the eastern edge of Iraqi Kurdistan (where the Ansar al-Islam camps were). When trying to remove a mole on one's skin, does the doctor use an ax to chop off the whole arm or does the doctor use very small, precise tools to hit the specific target?

Believe me, if numbers were no item, than I would support going into Iraq on the humanitarian reasons alone. Numbers are an item, however, and an important one.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

mack pl
07-19-2004, 06:41 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

I grew up in the Soviet Union and I answered this thread :P
are you Russian?

anyway, I agree with CAG, people from this part of Europe know something about living under strict rules etc. etc. :| So, maybe that why we are supporting this war(iraq, A-stan), and we are American allie....


No, I'm English (although one of my great grandmothers was Welsh). Which at the time meant my family could not leave Moscow without 2 weeks notice and had other foreigners restrictions.
ohhh, ok. But thats mean, you havent got very big experience in living under regime... :roll:

nevermind, Im not antiamerican, so my contribution to this thread couldnt be constructive :lol:

Go USA !

;)

Hey mate, thanx for support! http://img8.exs.cx/img8/258/4_17_209.gif

Zdarec,
CAG 147 http://img8.exs.cx/img8/3971/beret.gif

Anyway, thanx to all for contributions to this topic ... also to opponents

Hahah, no problem ;)

Zdarec :)

Zarathustra
07-19-2004, 06:44 PM
Since at least 10 years, I still support the american civilization, not especially clinton, bush or ( maybe soon ) kerry, I don't care if the president is republican or democrat but I think it is the last country with israel who protect our western civilization against the Islamic barbary...

But saying that most of Europeans are a gang of anti-american commies is not far from the true, I just hope they will change their ideas and thus supporting the truth...

cut
07-19-2004, 06:58 PM
Antiamerikanism = Anti-Bush = Anti - Iraq War = Europe is OK

Do you know what is funny? No one from Central and Eastern Europe contributed to such a "hot" discussion. Do you know why? They know what does it mean to live under strict rules, opression, where law means nothing, where people are killed by their own people without trials. I wish to have a power to take European anarcho - lefties scum back to the 80´s and let them live somewhere in the above mentioned areas. Antiamerikanism in Europe is based on envy, it is nothing else.

I grew up in the Soviet Union and I answered this thread :P
are you Russian?

anyway, I agree with CAG, people from this part of Europe know something about living under strict rules etc. etc. :| So, maybe that why we are supporting this war(iraq, A-stan), and we are American allie....


No, I'm English (although one of my great grandmothers was Welsh). Which at the time meant my family could not leave Moscow without 2 weeks notice and had other foreigners restrictions.
ohhh, ok. But thats mean, you havent got very big experience in living under regime... :roll:

nevermind, Im not antiamerican, so my contribution to this thread couldnt be constructive :lol:

Go USA !

;)

I still have a better grasp of what it was like to live under the regime then the vast majority of europeans, let alone CAG.

'ave it ;)

2RHPZ
07-20-2004, 01:19 AM
OK Cut, I don´t want to make people over here at forum angry. Neither I want to start another flames, but ... I can´t help myself :) I must bring all news. Suddenly (trust me, please, no searching) I run into this article:

Australian Anti-Americanism

By Rob Foot
Quadrant Magazine | July 19, 2004

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14268

Kilgor
07-20-2004, 01:59 AM
excellent article.. thanks

mack pl
07-20-2004, 03:58 AM
But saying that most of Europeans are a gang of anti-american commies is not far from the true..
its only generalistation mate ;)

hehe, Im socialist, and Im not Ant-American :lol:

@cut-yes, I think you know more than other people about living under regime.....happy now ;)

PS. damn, even Aussies are antiamericans :cantbeli: geez, who next? Brits :cantbeli:

;)

uTu
07-20-2004, 05:27 AM
I can vouch for OZ antiamericanism having just got back from there. There is quite a bit here in NZ too which absolutely sucks and the only americans I seem to meet here feel guilty and apologetic about their country. It makes me very angry and I'm always arguing with people over their irrational anti american dribbling. Of course that's not everyone, I like to think the sensible majority keep quiet?

good articles too, cheers!!

cut
07-20-2004, 06:55 AM
since, anti-american seems to have such a broad meaning, I think it would be far simpler listing the countries that aren't anti-american, so far I have... Israel and, I'm not sure about this one, Antartica? Anywhere else?

oldsoak
07-20-2004, 08:17 AM
I think the term is getting mis-used. I dont always agree with what the US does - does that make me Anti American ? I'd argue that some chap who does his level best to repeatedly run the place and its people down or commits terrorist acts against the US gets that prize. Its a great pity that we dont always exercise tact in pointing out the specks in each others eye. Suggesting to someone that their interests could be better served by a different course of action gets a happier response than telling them there a bunch of morons. It would certainly help re-define "Anti American".

2RHPZ
07-20-2004, 11:45 AM
Anti-Americanism in Korea

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-07-11-1.html