Americans blame Britain for rise of Islamic extremism

[Macaca sylvanus]

Americans blame Britain for rise of Islamic extremism

Britain has been accused of being a “menace to the outside world” as American anger over the UK’s perceived failure to tackle Islamic extremism intensified.

By Toby Harnden in Washington
Published: 10:03PM GMT 30 Dec 2009



Senior policymakers in the United States said the attempted suicide bomb attack by Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who is thought to have become radicalised in London, was further evidence that one of the biggest threats to US security came from Britain, where the capital has been dubbed “Londonistan” by critics. There was also criticism of the “ghettoisation” of British Muslims, compared with the “assimilation” of Muslims in America.




Muslim immigrants to the US were much better integrated in society and considered themselves Americans “within a generation” because the US embraced the “melting pot” concept, said Marc Thiessen, former chief speechwriter for President George W Bush and a former Pentagon aide.
“That doesn’t exist in Europe in the same way and particularly in Britain, which is a more socially stratified society than the US,” he said. “They live in Muslim ghettoes and feel alienated from the larger society and not accepted.”





Abdulmutallab was president of the Islamic Society at University College London between 2006 and 2007, while he was studying for an engineering degree. UCL, together with many other British universities, has been accused of failing to stop radical preachers giving talks on campus for fear of being accused of Islamophobia. Daniel Pipes, a scholar on radical Islam and former adviser to Rudolph Giuliani during his presidential campaign, said: “The UK is a menace to the outside world. It’s been a problem for years now. This is just one more example.”





The Home Office refused Abdulmutallab a student visa in May and put him on an immigration watch list but did not pass this information to the US. While some officials have said the information could have helped American agencies, others have more fundamental worries about Britain and Europe.
“We are in grave danger as a result of the fact that we are lowering our defences by doing away with vital tools in the war on terror that have proven successful – all in response to the hue and cry from the European Left and to appease European opinion,” said Mr Thiessen. “You are still in the law enforcement approach to terrorism in Britain – the one that we seem to be returning to here in the US.





“The fact is there is no shame in aggressively interrogating terrorists or treating them as enemy combatants as opposed to criminals. What was attempted in Detroit, what was done to you on the London Underground, these were not crimes, they were acts of war.” Charles Allen, a recently-retired veteran CIA officer who was intelligence chief at the Department of Homeland Security under Mr Bush, said: “The British have an immense problem. There are more challenges in Muslim immigrants integrating into British society than there is in America, a lack of assimilation, a great deal of alienation.”




As a result, al-Qaeda had “worked much harder to get Westerners, people who live in the West, who may be citizens of the West” to become recruits and train in places like the tribal areas of Pakistan and Yemen. “The British have the most immediate and serious problem.”




www.telegraph.co.uk

[Atlantic Friend]

“We are in grave danger as a result of the fact that we are lowering our defences by doing away with vital tools in the war on terror that have proven successful – all in response to the hue and cry from the European Left and to appease European opinion,” said Mr Thiessen. “You are still in the law enforcement approach to terrorism in Britain – the one that we seem to be returning to here in the US.

That's confusing to me : what are these vital anti-terrorist tools that are non-related to law enforcement?

[Ordie]

This is a result of "multiculturalism" as a policy where you allow exceptions to the rule of law to appease cultural norms.

[Macaca sylvanus]

That's confusing to me : what are these vital anti-terrorist tools that are non-related to law enforcement?

He probably means more stringent controls and measures like security profiling people by race or religion in places like airports. I can see the UK left kicking up a stink about this sort of thing, leading to them being relaxed.

[JoaMei]

That's confusing to me : what are these vital anti-terrorist tools that are non-related to law enforcement?

Well, Military and intelligence agencies. They are not exactely law enforcement.

[JJC]

There will be a day when scores are killed in a U.S. city and we will learn that the terrorists came and trained not from overseas but here at home. Then the media will start to focus on cities like Dearborn and start blaming the government for failures to detect them.

[Derbedeu]

This is a result of "multiculturalism" as a policy where you allow exceptions to the rule of law to appease cultural norms.

You mean like minarets? p-)

[Atlantic Friend]

Well, Military and intelligence agencies. They are not exactely law enforcement.

The intelligence option is alive and kicking in every country that deals with terrorism, and there's been no demands from the public opinion that the guard should be lowered in this respect.

As for the military option... if that means Iraqi Freedom, I'm afraid the "let's fight terrorists over there so we don't fight them in our backyard" is a lot of hooey. If that means military means can sometimes be used to attack a terrorist target, that's already done and to the best of my knowledge no-one is asking that they should be banned.

[Ordie]

You mean like minarets? p-)

Nope

We're talking not treating everyone equally under a common law.

[Derbedeu]

Nope

We're talking not treating everyone equally under a common law.

p-) <--- denotes sarcasm.

[tyovan]

It's true. Remember the Danish cartoon protests in London? Or the fact the UK gives refuge to some of the absolute scum of the earth?

Go to Whitechapel.. the only British things are the architecture, the money, and the Tube to get out.

[khukuri]

Nope

We're talking not treating everyone equally under a common law.

So in what way are muslims not treated equally and given privileges? Oh yea, that in some schools they get halal food and that girls are allowed to wear hijab whilst performing school sports...

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

It's true. Remember the Danish cartoon protests in London? Or the fact the UK gives refuge to some of the absolute scum of the earth?

Go to Whitechapel.. the only British things are the architecture, the money, and the Tube to get out.And despite all this the two UK plane bombers Richard Reid and Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab were not Pakistani, and before you go pointing fingers remember some of the scum the US hosted such as the 911 hijackers and a whole host of IRA terrorists.

[JBH22]

Kick the scum out and let the people who can adapt to UK society in,simple as that.

[The_Android]

Kick the scum out and let the people who can adapt to UK society in,simple as that.

Many Islamic extremists in the UK are second generation immigrants which are born there and hence British citizens. It's not an option in practice to kick someone out who has lived in the country for his/her entire life.

[afreu]

Nope

We're talking not treating everyone equally under a common law.

You're saying immigrants in the UK are privileged when in conflict with the law?

[Connaught Ranger]

Dare we mention the US failure to catch the 9/11 perpetrators

despite the more than adequate intelligence.p-)

As for integration the US has far more space to locate people to.

However in the U.K. most of the ethnic groups going back with time to the Irish, Poles, Africans, West Indians, Chinese, etc..etc.. tend to congregate together in large cities and towns with very few choosing to go out into the countryside or the wilds, out of choice, if they create a ghetto mentality, then what right has some eijeet in the U.S. to comment on it and blame "the British.":roll:

Connaught Ranger.

[muck]

This is a result of "multiculturalism" as a policy where you allow exceptions to the rule of law to appease cultural norms.Yes, absolutely.

[IDF_TANKER]

I think people on this thread very quickly forgot that tiny incident in an American military base, which happened only two months ago. The article does make some valid points, however singling out UK as western worm bed of Islamic terror is a bit exaggeration, IMHO.

[muck]

I think people on this thread very quickly forgot that tiny incident in an American military base, which happened only two months ago. The article does make some valid points, however singling out UK as western worm bed of Islamic terror is a bit exaggeration, IMHO.The United Kingdom is just a symbol for an European kind of politics which will never sanction those who get out of line. That said, there are always exceptions to the rule and he who suggests that political tools alone could provide absolute protection against acts of Islamist violence ignores the sheer fact that fanatics don't need reasonable reasons to wreak havoc.

[Muzungu]

well how can americans blame britain for rise of islamic extremism when thousands of american soldiers converted to islam during Gulf War 1 & 2, when they were based in KSA?

the recent case of the army major who is a muslim fired on fellow american soldiers!

again the discussion diverts from its topic to immigrants joining the main stream society of the adopted country!

anyway those people who dont adopt to the laws of the new country they move to, they should be sent back! 1st gen, 2nd gen or 3rd generation!

[PeterG]

I know a guy originally from Iran, who came here as an asylum seeker and who now work with asylum seekers himself - a few days ago he told me he didn't understand why the norwegian authorities were so eager to involve the local mosque and members of the islamic community, in the new arrivals.. Afghan youths. He said that these young kids were here precisely because they wanted to get away from such people.. He has also told me before how mystified he has been of our authorities who always seem to want to make imam's 'representatives' of their communities. Imam's who would have no power or influence at all back home, are suddenly elevated to 'leaders' and representatives of their 'communities'.

We will increasingly be paying the price for this folly.

[RSone]

Yes, absolutely.

While i agree with you and Ordie that it is a result of multiculturalism, the american 'meltingpot' principle does not work well in Europe. Americans, except the natives, are all immigrants, or their ancestors were at some point in history, with the native population playing an extremely small part in American politics for the last couple of centuries. In Europe, every country has a aboriginal population, which is in control of their country. It is felt that immigrants should adapt to the original populace, not the other way around. Personally i feel it would be for the best, and if immigrants don't like it that way, they can GTFO and try their luck somewhere else. Unfortunately our government seems very slow to realise that.

An example being muslim populations. I'm not against Islam, far from it, as i was raised in the belief that you should allow everyone their own religion. It becomes a problem however, when you allow hardliners to strongarm and blackmail the natives with religious guilt, over their secular constitution that guarantees freedom of religion. There should be no concessions towards religious groups as far as education, law, and public space is concerned.

If a native population places high value on the equality of women, burqa's and niqaabs shouldn't be allowed under any circumstance. Religious schools of any kind should be made illegal if you want equality and assimilation between your various ethnic and religious groups, history has shown that these schools often offer substandard education and are often used to sow the seeds of religious hate and jigoism, ruining our young new countrymen.

Europe is secular as far as government and law is concerned, and it should remain so. We as population should see to it. However, always remember 'He who fights monsters, should take care not to become one himself'

[Ordie]

In the US we have a live and let live policy as long as you respect common law. This works well for both the faith and individual alike.

Muslims in America enjoy equal protection of the law. They are not patronized, nor do they expect to be treated differently.

We Americans do not give a crap about headscrafs, burkhas, or minarets. We do pay any tribute to any one Muslim leader nor we give any authority to any faith on matters of civil affairs.

We respect and protect the rights for those who want a new life outside their cultural norms.

[Muzungu]

In the US we have a live and let live policy as long as you respect common law. This works well for both the faith and individual alike.

Muslims in America enjoy equal protection of the law. They are not patronized, nor do they expect to be treated differently.

We Americans do not give a crap about headscrafs, burkhas, or minarets. We do pay any tribute to any one Muslim leader nor we give any authority to any faith on matters of civil affairs.

We respect and protect the rights for those who want a new life outside their cultural norms.

so what different britain is doing from the americans?

[2495]

so what different britain is doing from the americans?

In the UK, a muslim is held in higher regard than a non-muslim by the authorities. The Police treat them with respect, hold their faith in high esteem and make it a point to consult them on every issue, the government bend backwards to make sure they are not 'affronted / confronted', and when muslims protest and do terrible things the police back off in fear. Any one else did what muslims did in a protest and they would get the sh1t kicked clean out of them.

Add to this that UK Immigration hold muslim refugees in higher esteem and do more to assist them than non-muslims, then you see the problem.

[tea drinker]

In the UK, a muslim is held in higher regard than a non-muslim by the authorities. The Police treat them with respect, hold their faith in high esteem and make it a point to consult them on every issue, the government bend backwards to make sure they are not 'affronted / confronted', and when muslims protest and do terrible things the police back off in fear. Any one else did what muslims did in a protest and they would get the sh1t kicked clean out of them.

Add to this that UK Immigration hold muslim refugees in higher esteem and do more to assist them than non-muslims, then you see the problem.
Well, the last thing that people should have is an entitlement complex courtesy of positive discrimination. I suppose the difference between Europe and US, is that in US people come to get a job and make a better life. In EU, people often come to get the dole, and to have kids that do the same. Of course, that's not always the case....

Anyway not just UK problem, theo van Gogh, the danish cartoons, the hamburg cell, the french riots etc etc
Who ever thinks it's solely a UK problem is lying, or should be sterilised for stupidity.

[tea drinker]

...... in the new arrivals.. Afghan youths. He said that these young kids were here precisely because they wanted to get away from such people.. He has also told me before how mystified he has been of our authorities who always seem to want to make imam's 'representatives' of their communities. Imam's who would have no power or influence at all back home, are suddenly elevated to 'leaders' and representatives of their 'communities'.

We will increasingly be paying the price for this folly.
Disengage from Afghanistan completely, stop military actions and you don't need to show how nice you REALLY are by taking in their refugees...
you get a bonus in that your internal security is boosted, allegedly the remit for current military actions

[Ordie]

so what different britain is doing from the americans?

We don't patronize them.

Moreover, the majority of Muslims in the US are not from Arab speaking countries, more affluent, educated, and live in mixed communities.

Any Middle Eastern 'clusters' tend to be more ethnic than religious based and mixed with other faiths from the same countries.

Iraqis in San Diego tend to be both Christians and Muslims.
Persians in Los Angeles are both Muslims and Jews.
Palestinians in San Francisco are either Muslims or Greek Orthodox.
Lebanese in Michigan is a mirror image of Lebanon.

If there is an incident, we treat it as an individual criminal act under our existing laws.

[DeltaSI]

In the UK, a muslim is held in higher regard than a non-muslim by the authorities. The Police treat them with respect, hold their faith in high esteem and make it a point to consult them on every issue, the government bend backwards to make sure they are not 'affronted / confronted', and when muslims protest and do terrible things the police back off in fear. Any one else did what muslims did in a protest and they would get the sh1t kicked clean out of them.

Add to this that UK Immigration hold muslim refugees in higher esteem and do more to assist them than non-muslims, then you see the problem.


You must have spent a lot of time in the UK working with the authorities and police then to draw those conclusions?

[Muzungu]

We don't patronize them.

Moreover, the majority of Muslims in the US are not from Arab speaking countries, more affluent, educated, and live in mixed communities.

Any Middle Eastern 'clusters' tend to be more ethnic than religious based and mixed with other faiths from the same countries.

Iraqis in San Diego tend to be both Christians and Muslims.
Persians in Los Angeles are both Muslims and Jews.
Palestinians in San Francisco are either Muslims or Greek Orthodox.
Lebanese in Michigan is a mirror image of Lebanon.

If there is an incident, we treat it as an individual criminal act under our existing laws.

well i dont want to offend any american by saying this> 9/11 happened in usa, not in uk!

[coltfan111]

Our government is far too soft of radical Islam, and in general the increased ghettoisation of many areas does not help things. But to try and single out the UK is definitely a miss diagnosis.

[hsh2]

Moreover, the majority of Muslims in the US are not from Arab speaking countries, more affluent, educated, and live in mixed communities.

Yeah and let's not forget the fact that there are much much less Muslims and/or Arabs living in the USA than in Europe. That doesn't do any harm either.



If there is an incident, we treat it as an individual criminal act under our existing laws.It's exactly the contrary in Europe.

They come and demand demand demand.

"Give us free language courses, otherwise it's your fault that we aren't integrated". That's the kind of stuff one regularly hears.

We then give them the free language courses...but they remain emtpy and the cycle continues...

It's truely a folly which could have been so easily avoided. It's like a person that came to a dinner because he knew an invited guest attending the dinner and keeps the entire evening blaming the host for the food and wine selection.

Me personally I think we should instore some kind of a law which states that whenever a foreigner commits a serious crime (ie not a shoplifting) we send back a number of his compatriots. It's easy to endure the repercussions of Swiss authorities and "prisons", less so the wrath of a violent, clan based society. Wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen.


Our government is far too soft of radical Islam, and in general the increased ghettoisation of many areas does not help things. But to try and single out the UK is definitely a miss diagnosis.

x2

[Hollis]

This is all news to me and I live in the states. A hint to non-Americans never ever pay attention to US politicians, they are just pandering to the electorate. The more mud slung the more votes. Typical political BS like shifting blame, never address the issue but blame someone else is all to common. D's do it to R's, R's do it to D's both blame outsiders.

News in the States is blaming the other party and right wing media is blaming Obama. So this is a UK article, maybe it is the UK politicians playing the same shift the blame game.

[szr]

Articles like this are a reminder to all Americans that as hyperbolic as the American press can be at times, it could be worse.

[Kitsune]

The UK is a menace to the outside world. It’s been a problem for years now.
That's a great statement to frame and to hang over your writing desk, isn't it? p-)

[JBH22]

In the UK, a muslim is held in higher regard than a non-muslim by the authorities. The Police treat them with respect, hold their faith in high esteem and make it a point to consult them on every issue, the government bend backwards to make sure they are not 'affronted / confronted', and when muslims protest and do terrible things the police back off in fear. Any one else did what muslims did in a protest and they would get the sh1t kicked clean out of them.

Add to this that UK Immigration hold muslim refugees in higher esteem and do more to assist them than non-muslims, then you see the problem.

THIS IS CALLED VOTE BANK POLITICS better adapt urself Congress does this in India

[bersaglieri]

Which of the two countries, UK or USA, has done the most to kow tow to the Saudis , because Saudi is where the rise of Islamic terrorism originates.

[Ordie]

Which of the two countries, UK or USA, has done the most to kow tow to the Saudis , because Saudi is where the rise of Islamic terrorism originates.

I guess the Saudis need to be more conservative than the fundamentalist in order to legitimize their rule over the country.

Which has its unintended consequences.

[Victor1]

Political correctness strikes again.

[Universal_Soldier]

In the UK, a muslim is held in higher regard than a non-muslim by the authorities. The Police treat them with respect, hold their faith in high esteem and make it a point to consult them on every issue, the government bend backwards to make sure they are not 'affronted / confronted', and when muslims protest and do terrible things the police back off in fear. Any one else did what muslims did in a protest and they would get the sh1t kicked clean out of them.

Add to this that UK Immigration hold muslim refugees in higher esteem and do more to assist them than non-muslims, then you see the problem.

Agree 1000%.

I saw a documentary on that and couldn't believe it's happening in UK. It was like Pakistan...fundamentalist preachings, anti-western Chants etc. That will never happen in the US today. Very disappointed with the Brits on this one.

[VAMAN]

Agree 1000%.

I saw a documentary on that and couldn't believe it's happening in UK. It was like Pakistan...fundamentalist preachings, anti-western Chants etc. That will never happen in the US today. Very disappointed with the Brits on this one.
UK has Pakistan phobia. After independence of India and Pakistan from Britain, Pakistanis were given more preference than Indians, for immigration into Britain. It was much easier for Pakistanis. Before World Trade Center 9/11 episode, Pakistanis were the good guys.

[Britishhawk]

I dont think the British isolate immigrant communities, I believe they do that to themselves. As far as I can see in my area, all immigrants stay together. Southhall in London is a good example of this, 70,000+ population.. less that 10% are white British. If you go through the town you are looked at as if you dont belong there, the roadsigns are in another language.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

In the UK, a muslim is held in higher regard than a non-muslim by the authorities. The Police treat them with respect, hold their faith in high esteem and make it a point to consult them on every issue, the government bend backwards to make sure they are not 'affronted / confronted', and when muslims protest and do terrible things the police back off in fear. Any one else did what muslims did in a protest and they would get the sh1t kicked clean out of them.

Add to this that UK Immigration hold muslim refugees in higher esteem and do more to assist them than non-muslims, then you see the problem.Having Asian relatives and friends I can honestly say that I have never heard of religion being determined at stop or arrest and one of those Asians is a police officer. After custody you are as in many other states asked about dietary preferences whether it be Kosher, Halal or veggi, food allergies and the such. I certainly think the police used to treat elements of British society with kid gloves but I am going 20 years or so but these days they seem pretty egalitarian.

[BMF_EOD]

Well I personally blame our foreign policies in the middle east post Gulf War 1 and more importantly the administration in power during Khobar, Word Trade Center 1, and the USS Cole.

I've been doing this EOD thing for a almost two decades now. I first learned of AQ and Bin Ladin early 1990's. We had plenty of intel. I read a lot of it personally and wondered why we were letting this go. I even taught a class on AQ at the US Navy EOD school circa 1998.

OUR government did not take it seriously. The blame rests solely on our American shoulders. We need to look in the mirror before pointing fingers.

[welshmann]

Americans blame Britain for rise of Islamic extremism

Britain has been accused of being a “menace to the outside world” as American anger over the UK’s perceived failure to tackle Islamic extremism intensified.

By Toby Harnden in Washington
Published: 10:03PM GMT 30 Dec 2009



Senior policymakers in the United States said the attempted suicide bomb attack by Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, who is thought to have become radicalised in London, was further evidence that one of the biggest threats to US security came from Britain, where the capital has been dubbed “Londonistan” by critics. There was also criticism of the “ghettoisation” of British Muslims, compared with the “assimilation” of Muslims in America.




Muslim immigrants to the US were much better integrated in society and considered themselves Americans “within a generation” because the US embraced the “melting pot” concept, said Marc Thiessen, former chief speechwriter for President George W Bush and a former Pentagon aide.
“That doesn’t exist in Europe in the same way and particularly in Britain, which is a more socially stratified society than the US,” he said. “They live in Muslim ghettoes and feel alienated from the larger society and not accepted.”





Abdulmutallab was president of the Islamic Society at University College London between 2006 and 2007, while he was studying for an engineering degree. UCL, together with many other British universities, has been accused of failing to stop radical preachers giving talks on campus for fear of being accused of Islamophobia. Daniel Pipes, a scholar on radical Islam and former adviser to Rudolph Giuliani during his presidential campaign, said: “The UK is a menace to the outside world. It’s been a problem for years now. This is just one more example.”





The Home Office refused Abdulmutallab a student visa in May and put him on an immigration watch list but did not pass this information to the US. While some officials have said the information could have helped American agencies, others have more fundamental worries about Britain and Europe.
“We are in grave danger as a result of the fact that we are lowering our defences by doing away with vital tools in the war on terror that have proven successful – all in response to the hue and cry from the European Left and to appease European opinion,” said Mr Thiessen. “You are still in the law enforcement approach to terrorism in Britain – the one that we seem to be returning to here in the US.





“The fact is there is no shame in aggressively interrogating terrorists or treating them as enemy combatants as opposed to criminals. What was attempted in Detroit, what was done to you on the London Underground, these were not crimes, they were acts of war.” Charles Allen, a recently-retired veteran CIA officer who was intelligence chief at the Department of Homeland Security under Mr Bush, said: “The British have an immense problem. There are more challenges in Muslim immigrants integrating into British society than there is in America, a lack of assimilation, a great deal of alienation.”




As a result, al-Qaeda had “worked much harder to get Westerners, people who live in the West, who may be citizens of the West” to become recruits and train in places like the tribal areas of Pakistan and Yemen. “The British have the most immediate and serious problem.”




www.telegraph.co.uk


So every1 who is refused a student visa we got to report them to the USA???

looking at the news,did his father NOT inform the CIA??????

just because you cocked up,dont point the finger

[kkbou]

So every1 who is refused a student visa we got to report them to the USA???

looking at the news,did his father NOT inform the CIA??????

just because you cocked up,dont point the finger


Well thats just it, his old man on NUMEROUS separate occasions informed US and Nigerian security services.

[timetraveller]

In the UK, a muslim is held in higher regard than a non-muslim by the authorities. The Police treat them with respect, hold their faith in high esteem and make it a point to consult them on every issue, the government bend backwards to make sure they are not 'affronted / confronted', and when muslims protest and do terrible things the police back off in fear. Any one else did what muslims did in a protest and they would get the sh1t kicked clean out of them.

Add to this that UK Immigration hold muslim refugees in higher esteem and do more to assist them than non-muslims, then you see the problem.


You really sure about that ....

Any of your family serve as police ????

[Geezah]

well how can americans blame britain for rise of islamic extremism when thousands of american soldiers converted to islam during Gulf War 1 & 2, when they were based in KSA?

Got any proof of these thousands that have converted?

[Geezah]

Our government is far too soft of radical Islam, and in general the increased ghettoisation of many areas does not help things. But to try and single out the UK is definitely a miss diagnosis.

I know that over the years I saw Hounslow change, and Southall was always Asian, but I do believe that the current Government in the UK is on the PC overdrive train.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I know that over the years I saw Hounslow change, and Southall was always Asian, but I do believe that the current Government in the UK is on the PC overdrive train.I very much doubt they are Mooslim appeasers as they have sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Geezah]

I very much doubt they are Mooslim appeasers as they have sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Would the British Government ever say it is a war against Islam?

Now, lets look at old Captain Hook, a fine example of how long it took the Government to get it's arse into gear and do something, and there are many like him out there.

[Derbedeu]

Would the British Government ever say it is a war against Islam?


So the two wars are wars against Islam?

:roll:

[Geezah]

So the two wars are wars against Islam?

:roll:

Reread my response, I am trying to make a point.

[gaijinsamurai]

well how can americans blame britain for rise of islamic extremism when thousands of american soldiers converted to islam during Gulf War 1 & 2, when they were based in KSA?



I never heard of any Marines in my battalion converting to Islam during Gulf War I, and I doubt if there were many in the US Army, either. Sure, there could have been a couple of isolated incidents, but to say there were thousands of converts is simply not true.


And I disagree that the UK is to blame for the rise of Islamic extremism, however much I'd like to see some of the Muslims in the UK deported back to their (or their family's) countries of origin.

And I miss the old UK that made me feel proud of my English/Welsh/Scotch-Irish ancestry.

[gaz]

....said Marc Thiessen, former chief speechwriter for President George W Bush and a former Pentagon aide.

I can't help but notice that Mr Thiessen has a book coming out in a few weeks. I'm certainly not suggesting that what he said was wrong or right but drumming up some publicity probably won't hurt his sales...

[wotsnext]

Would the British Government ever say it is a war against Islam?
I would hope not................:roll:

[Atlantic Friend]

anyway those people who dont adopt to the laws of the new country they move to, they should be sent back! 1st gen, 2nd gen or 3rd generation!

A 3rd-generation immigrant doesn't move to the UK. He's born there, and so were his parents. Most probably he's also a British citizen. So where does he get deported back to?

Also, do we apply that system to the other, pure-bred citizens of the UK that regrettable are also tens of thousands to break the laws of the UK? Maybe we could look into their family tree to see if there isn't a great-grandad that came from another country and deport the great-grandson there?

[CMNot]

Our government is far too soft of radical Islam

They've enacted the most hardcore, invasive and liberty defying legislation seen in Western *cough*Democracies*cough* for the sole purpose of going after the Muslim community. Detention without trial (YAY! for democracy), control orders, all aimed firmly at the Muslims. Travel bans, visa withdrawals. The press miss most of the action because they are too fired up about whatever Cheryl Cole is wearing on any given day. I sincerely hope we are not thinking we are in a war with Islam; if so, the results so far are about as blindly comic as that other great non-War, the 'War on Drugs' (can I get a lol). Although God knows, the US/UK economies could do with a good old protracted conflict far from home.

The article itself is worth a good chortle, nothing more.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

It's always easier to blame someone else instead of your own fcuked up foreign policy record isn't it :roll:

[kkbou]

You really sure about that ....

Any of your family serve as police ????

x2

I don't know where ''these muslims get preferential treatment'' idiots get their information.

Water-boarding and extraordinary rendition is preferential treatment, so I suppose they are getting preferential treatment.

Maybe we should roll it out to the masses.

[kkbou]

Would the British Government ever say it is a war against Islam?

Now, lets look at old Captain Hook, a fine example of how long it took the Government to get it's arse into gear and do something, and there are many like him out there.


Reread this post several times.

I guess the british gov. is being PC when they say they are not in a war against islam? and you would like them to be less PC?

[gaijinsamurai]

A 3rd-generation immigrant doesn't move to the UK. He's born there, and so were his parents. Most probably he's also a British citizen. So where does he get deported back to?

Also, do we apply that system to the other, pure-bred citizens of the UK that regrettable are also tens of thousands to break the laws of the UK? Maybe we could look into their family tree to see if there isn't a great-grandad that came from another country and deport the great-grandson there?

While it may be a nice "band-aid" for societies to "just get rid of" all their undesirable elements (look at Australia), what we're seeing in the UK, and elsewhere in Europe, as well as the US, are immigrants and even sons and daughters of immigrants (to a lesser extent) that refuse to respect the cultural norms of the countries which are taking them in.

So yeah, if they don't seem willing to respect the UK's culture and laws, then by all means, get rid of them. Of course, that does not mean all Muslims.

[Atlantic Friend]

While it may be a nice "band-aid" for societies to "just get rid of" all their undesirable elements (look at Australia), what we're seeing in the UK, and elsewhere in Europe, as well as the US, are immigrants and even sons and daughters of immigrants (to a lesser extent) that refuse to respect the cultural norms of the countries which are taking them in.

So yeah, if they don't seem willing to respect the UK's culture and laws, then by all means, get rid of them. Of course, that does not mean all Muslims.

Okay for an immigrant, since he's right to live in the country can easily be revoked if he doesn't respect the laws (I'm not too keen on deporting people for not rspecting cultural norms myself, as it opens too many cans of worms to my taste, like the definition of what is a cultural norm for example).

But the next-generation immigrants, and by that I mean those who are no longer immigrants but citizens, I don't see how they could be deported.

We don't strip a 10th-generation Briton/French/American of his citizenship even if he knifes pensioners, desecrates churches and rapes little children, for example. We judge him and punish him as a citizen. The idea of treating someone differently because his parents or grandparents were immigrants is not easily defendible.

[gaijinsamurai]

Agreed, Atlantic Friend, and that seems to be the rub. For example, the five Muslim-Americans who were recently caught in Pakistan while trying to link up with Al-Queda were all born in the US.

[gaijinsamurai]

Pat Buchanan was accused of being a racist for saying it, and maybe he is, but years back, he suggested that the US take into consideration issues of cultural adaptability when deciding which people to grant immigrant visas to.

[tyovan]

Pat Buchanan was accused of being a racist for saying it, and maybe he is, but years back, he suggested that the US take into consideration issues of cultural adaptability when deciding which people to grant immigrant visas to.

It's not racist, it's simply not being 'politically correct' by pointing out there are vastly different cultures - some of which have vastly different values and will clash if they are close proximity in large numbers.

[Atlantic Friend]

Pat Buchanan was accused of being a racist for saying it, and maybe he is, but years back, he suggested that the US take into consideration issues of cultural adaptability when deciding which people to grant immigrant visas to.

It certainly used to be like that - but as that's also what led many countries to refusing immigration visas to Jews on cultural grounds, it's the kind of issue that needs to be given a lot of consideration.

It's also tricky to determine how people will adapt before they move to another country, at least if one doesn't want to resort to massive generalizations about foreign societies.

[JBH22]

UK has Pakistan phobia. After independence of India and Pakistan from Britain, Pakistanis were given more preference than Indians, for immigration into Britain. It was much easier for Pakistanis. Before World Trade Center 9/11 episode, Pakistanis were the good guys.

SO basically Britain reaped what it has sown???

[dracon49]

If i remember well i read that by 2050 the muslims will be 25% of the population in Europe/or single country that i forogot her name i think Britain. Its a lot.

[Mordoror]

If i remember well i read that by 2050 the muslims will be 25% of the population in Europe/or single country that i forogot her name i think Britain. Its a lot.bwahhaha
not that Foxnews issued Eurabia again !!
let's be clear the immigration laws are getting harsher and harsher in Europe
so there is less and less (in absolute value) muslim immigrants for the past years than in the 60-70-80s
moreover birth rates of muslims living on the european soil are joining the birth rate of the non muslim population
of course you can point out the legendary 8 child families
even if there is some i can point out also the 8 child families in fundamentalist catholic circles
the "outbreed" thingy is a basic propaganda far right issued (the same you have in Israel concerning the Israeli Arabs vs the Jews) for internal political purpose

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Would the British Government ever say it is a war against Islam?Dis any UK government ever say they were at war with Irish Catholics during the Troubles.

[dracon49]

bwahhaha
not that Foxnews issued Eurabia again !!
let's be clear the immigration laws are getting harsher and harsher in Europe
so there is less and less (in absolute value) muslim immigrants for the past years than in the 60-70-80s
moreover birth rates of muslims living on the european soil are joining the birth rate of the non muslim population
of course you can point out the legendary 8 child families
even if there is some i can point out also the 8 child families in fundamentalist catholic circles
the "outbreed" thingy is a basic propaganda far right issued (the same you have in Israel concerning the Israeli Arabs vs the Jews) for internal political purpose
In Israel 20% are arabs....A lot...but their birth rate is decreasing.

[coltfan111]

They've enacted the most hardcore, invasive and liberty defying legislation seen in Western *cough*Democracies*cough* for the sole purpose of going after the Muslim community. Detention without trial (YAY! for democracy), control orders, all aimed firmly at the Muslims. Travel bans, visa withdrawals. The press miss most of the action because they are too fired up about whatever Cheryl Cole is wearing on any given day. I sincerely hope we are not thinking we are in a war with Islam; if so, the results so far are about as blindly comic as that other great non-War, the 'War on Drugs' (can I get a lol). Although God knows, the US/UK economies could do with a good old protracted conflict far from home.

The article itself is worth a good chortle, nothing more.

The point I was going to make but was too lazy to type. is that our intelligence service has been great time and time again at tracking down and closing down Islamic terror cells. But we still allow radical Islamic groups like "Islam 4 UK" to hold weekly marches demanding Shariah law. But when it has really counted they have been shut down. Although I don't like the fact that a man who has sponosred Jihad is allowed to organize rallies to promote civil unrest in the name of Islam.

[Hollis]

The point I was going to make but was too lazy to type. is that our intelligence service has been great time and time again at tracking down and closing down Islamic terror cells. But we still allow radical Islamic groups like "Islam 4 UK" to hold weekly marches demanding Shariah law. But when it has really counted they have been shut down. Although I don't like the fact that a man who has sponosred Jihad is allowed to organize rallies to promote civil unrest in the name of Islam.


I think that points out a conundrum that all Western counties have with this issue. I also think all countries, maybe mostly Western countries are watching each other to see if there is a better solution being developed out there. There are other similar problems that do not result in terrorism but in other crimes. Where does freedom end and restrictions begin.

[SilentType]

I always loath such broad and sweeping statements like "Americans blame...."

America is a nation where individuality is highly prized. We are not some monolithic group of clones and I know for a fact that all 320,000,000 Americans do not blame Britain, because I am an American citizen and I do not blame Britain. Although I have no poll to support it I would be greatly surprised if the majority of Americans place any blame on Britain.

The blame lies with the terrorists who attack us and with those politicians who make us vulnerable to those attacks through improper funding, poor appointments to executive agencies, poor oversight, and poor policies concerning national defense.

Janet Napolitano, Hillary Clinton, Leon Panetta, and on and on in this administration within KEY areas are all absolutely and totally unqualified for their positions. The British certainly played NO part in their appointments.

[Nano]

Wow what a broad generalization of people. I don't know anyone who blames Britain for Islamic extremism at least not when it concerns us. The U.S. government has done more than enough on its own to incur the wrath of many a people in the world without Britain's help thank you very much. Give credit where credit is due. No credit is due to Britain.

[bluffcove]

mohammed atta was trained in the Uk, Im inclined to agree

[Nano]

mohammed atta was trained in the Uk, Im inclined to agree

wat what lolroflroflI hear it was the juice who trained the 9-11 guys as well. Any info on that by any chance? /sarcasm rofl

[Mordoror]

mohammed atta was trained in the Uk, Im inclined to agree
you are kidding right ??
he also graduated in Germany : blame ze evilz germanz

and and i forgot some of the 9/11 hijackers trained to fly (not to take of or land actually) in Florida in US
blame ze evilz USz......

[Corrupt]

mohammed atta was trained in the Uk, Im inclined to agree
So obviously Extremism the fault of a whole country for not keeping tabs on one bloke 24/7?
Yes its terrible, and yes there may well be Issues that need to be addressed. But terrorism/islamic extremism cannot be blamed on the UK. Certainly (for better or worse) Americas role as world police has led to some rancour from Islamic communities. Note Im not blaming the US for anything here, just playing Devils advocate in response to that stupid post about Atta and the UK being a hotbed of terrorism...

[Atlantic Friend]

Janet Napolitano, Hillary Clinton, Leon Panetta, and on and on in this administration within KEY areas are all absolutely and totally unqualified for their positions. The British certainly played NO part in their appointments.

Er... the article seems based upon the perceptions of Mr Thiessen, who doesn't seem to be connected to the present US Administration.

[NavyTimes]

Glad to see so much common sense in this thread.

[bluffcove]

oops my mistake, no he was a palestinian recruited in germany, and trained to fly planes in the US.

maybe the British didnt create extremism then!

[szr]

6 pages of posters being played like stringed instruments. Looks like this Daily Telegraph article has achieved its desired effect.

[English John]

Muslim ghettoes, what a load of rubbish. This guy just does not know what he is talking about.

In the UK they have Muslim MPs in all three of the main parties, and a number in the house of Lords.

Writing crap like this does more damage, than help.

[Geezah]

Reread this post several times.

I guess the british gov. is being PC when they say they are not in a war against islam? and you would like them to be less PC?

I would prefer they call as it is, a war against Islamofascists. After all, it's a minority of Muslims that have taken up arms against the West, but due to the silent majority, we seldom hear about the Islamic Radicals being condemed.



Britain Drops 'War on Terror' Label

The words "war on terror" will no longer be used by the British government to describe attacks on the public, the country's chief prosecutor said Dec. 27.

Sir Ken Macdonald said terrorist fanatics were not soldiers fighting a war but simply members of an aimless "death cult."

The Director of Public Prosecutions said: 'We resist the language of warfare, and I think the government has moved on this. It no longer uses this sort of language."

London is not a battlefield, he said.

"The people who were murdered on July 7 were not the victims of war. The men who killed them were not soldiers," Macdonald said. "They were fantasists, narcissists, murderers and criminals and need to be responded to in that way."

His remarks signal a change in emphasis across Whitehall, where the "war on terror" language has officially been ditched.

Officials were concerned it could act as a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, which is determined to manufacture a battle between Islam and the West.

The term "Islamic terrorist" will also no longer be used. Officials believe it is unhelpful because it appears to directly link the religion to terrorist atrocities.

In an interview with BBC Radio's World at One, Macdonald made a fresh attack on plans to extend beyond 28 days the length of time a terror suspect can be held without trial.

He said that the evidence had shown that the existing limit was working well and he accused ministers of legislating on the basis of 'hypotheticals'.

Link (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,159067,00.html)

Unfortunate as it is, the current threat comes from Radical Muslims, there is no getting away from that, so why not call a spade a spade?

[pg_ord]

I would prefer they call as it is, a war against Islamofascists. After all, it's a minority of Muslims that have taken up arms against the West, but due to the silent majority, we seldom hear about the Islamic Radicals being condemed.

Any criticism of Islamofacists/radical ideology can be spun around to mean attack on Islam. That will help silencing moderates and mobilizing more fundamentalists. Ideological wars are way too difficult. ;)

[Geezah]

Any criticism of Islamofacists/radical ideology can be spun around to mean attack on Islam.

When I referenced a silent majority, I was talking about the majority of Muslims that do not feel it is necessary to take the teachings in the Koran to mean kill everything and anything that is not Muslim.

[pg_ord]

When I referenced a silent majority, I was talking about the majority of Muslims that do not feel it is necessary to take the teachings in the Koran to mean kill everything and anything that is not Muslim.
That is because few people can come out and outrightly say wahabi interpretation is incorrect. ;)

[MkH]

If you welcome extremists and murder-preaching imams, you get extremists and murder-preaching imams. Seems kind of logical to me.

[Niall]

The USA blame everything on everyone else.

Damn you Britain for not constantly watching every 60 million residents of the nation! Damn you Yemen for failing to keep tabs on every citizen.

Damn you USA for not having intercept aircraft near the twin towers?


Governments are rarely thanked for stopping and arresting terrorists. The UK has stopped attacks on more than one occasion and when something slips the net then the Americans must therefore pass on their displeasure.

Does it give the right to the rest of the world to say how the USA is not protecting it's CIA when 8 of them were killed by a suicide bomber in a base?

[Hollis]

The USA blame everything on everyone else.

Damn you Britain for not constantly watching every 60 million residents of the nation! Damn you Yemen for failing to keep tabs on every citizen.

Damn you USA for not having intercept aircraft near the twin towers?


Governments are rarely thanked for stopping and arresting terrorists. The UK has stopped attacks on more than one occasion and when something slips the net then the Americans must therefore pass on their displeasure.

Does it give the right to the rest of the world to say how the USA is not protecting it's CIA when 8 of them were killed by a suicide bomber in a base?



Maybe you should have read through this whole thread. What one partisan political talking head is saying it not worth listening too. He is at best, a rumor in his own mind.


Most Americans do not believe what US tabloids say, I would assume most people in the UK don't pay attention to their tabloids either. This thread seems to contradict that. What it has done was just at to the blame game.