French Navy Rafale F1 declared operational

[fantassin]

Thales welcomes the entry of the Rafale F1 standard into operational service, announced by the French Navy at the Landivisiau naval airbase on 25 June 2004. The entry into operational service is a sign of the Rafale's operational success with the Aéronavale (the French Navy's air arm) and confirms the programme as a key element of France's defence for the coming decades.

The air defence mission of France's Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier is conducted using the ten Rafale F1 standard aircraft that make up 12F Squadron. Thales supplies most of the onboard equipment needed to ensure system implementation and mission success, including the RBE2 electronic scanning radar, the Spectra electronic warfare suite (in partnership with MBDA), the IFF identification system and airframe equipment such as the mission and data-storage computer, displays, communication systems, backup instruments and electric power generation systems.

The entry into operational service of the Rafale F1 standard and the success of the Agapanthe 04 mission are the results of major development efforts conducted since the Héraclès campaign, in which Thales played a major role. Initial feedback in 2002, following deployment in critical naval operating conditions, led to a series of modifications to the onboard equipment in order to optimise its implementation and operational deployment. These modifications were made in close collaboration with French Navy’s pilots and technicians. The current success is the result of all the development, production engineering and final adjustment efforts that have gone into the F1 standard.

The entry into operational service is the first vital stage in this long-term programme. The subsequent stages are already scheduled. They include the development of the F2 standard, the first multi-role standard that will support additional air-to-surface functions, and the production of forty-eight aircraft. In addition to improvements to the existing equipment, the F2 standard will feature new equipment, including the forward sector optronics system (in partnership with Sagem), the MDPU1 modular computer and the MIDS2 tactical datalink. The entry into operational service will commence with an initial testing phase at Mont-de-Marsan military flight test centre from September 2004.

1. Modular Data Processing Unit

2. Multifunctional Information Distribution System

The F3 standard, which entered development in early 2004, will give the Rafale complementary operational capabilities, including deployment and fire control of ASMP-A medium-range air-to-ground missiles and AM39 anti-ship missiles, as well as accommodating the RECO NG optronics pod and high-resolution air-to-ground mapping with the RBE2 radar. Finally, Thales is preparing for the future with new developments planned: these include the integration of the Damocles laser designation pod and improvements to the forward sector optronics system, Spectra electronic warfare suite and RBE2 active antenna.

(From the Thales website)

Agapanthe was the name of a four-month deployment carried out by the French Navy.

11 ships (including one british, HMS Gloucester) and one submarine were part of Agapanthe 2004, for a total of 4500 sailors and 30 aircrafts.

The Charles de Gaulle based Rafale and Super Etendard jets flew several mission in support of ground troops in Afghanistan during that period.

The Aéronavale

The Aéronavale of the Marine Nationale is currently undergoing an extensive modernisation. Some ageing aircraft types were retired during the past years such as the F-8P Crusader, the Etendard IVP and the Br1050 Alizé as well as the aircraft carrier Foch which was replaced by the new carrier Charles de Gaulle.

The backbone of the Aviation Navale is the Super Etendard which will soldier on until at least 2010. Most of the surviving aircraft were recently upgraded to Super Etendard Modernisé (SEM5) standard. After the SEM modernisation the aircraft is also capable of performing reconnaissance tasks resulting in the retirement of the dedicated Etendard IVP which served the French navy for forty years and the disbandment of 16F at Landivisiau.
The Super Etendard is serving with two squadrons at Landivisiau after 14F was disbanded some years ago. 12F has reformed as the first Rafale M unit with 12 aircrafts. 11F and 17F will follow in 2006/2008 The current Rafale order is for 19 Rafale Ms and 41 Rafale BMs (two seaters).
A type which was withdrawn from service in late 2000 was the Br1050 Alizé. The last unit operating the Alizé was 6F at Nimes-Garons which was disbanded. The other Alizé unit was 4F at Lann-Bihoué which received the first of three E-2F Hawkeyes in December 1998.

[Uncle Chô]

http://lrm34.free.fr/Photos/rencontre-08-09-02/rafale.jpg
EXCLUSIVE! Dassault Aviation groundcrew working on the only flyable model of the Rafale Marine ;)

[moughoun]

http://lrm34.free.fr/Photos/rencontre-08-09-02/rafale.jpg
EXCLUSIVE! Dassault Aviation groundcrew working on the only flyable model of the Rafale Marine ;)

Meowwwww :lol:

[gilgoul]

Was about time
When was it supposed to enter service, 1994?

[fantassin]

yes, that what's happen when you produce most of your weapons yourself rather than benefit from FMS funds from good ol' US of A.

It's called independence and it's got a price, both in money and delays. Also, it could have been operational much earlier if the previous government had not constantly delayed the program.

But at least, now it's operational.

[Uncle Chô]

€45 M per aircraft... And I have just read the Armée de l'Air is worried to engage such a pricy flying wonder for CAS missions... The old but cheap and trusty Sepecat Jaguar is going to be retire soon, leaving a gap. They plan to use the ...Army helo Tiger instead! :roll:

[gilgoul]

yes, that what's happen when you produce most of your weapons yourself rather than benefit from FMS funds from good ol' US of A.

It's called independence and it's got a price, both in money and delays. Also, it could have been operational much earlier if the previous government had not constantly delayed the program.

But at least, now it's operational.
Hey fantassin, don`t give me **** about FMS, I didn`t intend that as a flame war, but more as a constattion of the poor defense budget France is granting to it`s forces.
As a matter of fact the "good ol` US of A" are granting US this FMS as a suvention to thier own arm industry, after we signed a peace deal, and those programs are more of a handicap for our R&D than anytinh else.
As for calling Israel not being independant is an insult close to the lamest "franchouilarde" mentality, Israel is independant to the core, it`s MBT is not an Abrams so far, it retains industrial capacity for all of it`s strategic needs, and still most of it`s equipement is made in Israel, and those equipement are often so good that even european countries and USA buy them, because they are good ( ATGM GIL/Body armor/estra tank armour/popeye and so on).
France prides itself in it`s "independance", good for her, but it had the terrible effect to let people go in ops with material more than obsolete, and being injured or killed because of that.
The first FAMAS I`ve been given was so worn out it was a danger, fortunately the first legionnaire armourer who saw it changed it immediately. Did you serve in the time of the AA52? with 7.5 mm chains such in bad condition that you would rather not fire it?
What about the Marmont truck, very good, in the 60`s! Not for DOM TOM deployement while 200 TRM3000 where rusting in Rochambeau.
I am pretty happy to see the rafale being finally out, just like we`ve been waiting for the casque spectram for a long time, while more than one soldier died of head injury sustained in FOR****U deployement.
That might be the big difference between france and Israel, hte price of every soldier, the feeling that he is given the best equipement available and not some crapy "brelage" (that we replaced by south african webbing indeoendentely),In France the officer say "en avant" (forward), in Israel they say "follow me"

[fantassin]

They have God knows how many Mirage 2000Ds, that could do just that too, as well as the SEM and the Mirage F1 CTs depending on the threat level.

Nothing to worry about....


Hey, Gilgoul, easy on the paranoia; FMS is not JUST for Israel and there was no reference to Israel in my post.

Take a deep breath and stop thinking the world is out to get you !

As for the rest of your comment, it was maybe true 10 years ago with the draftee army you served in, it's no longer like that.

[Uncle Chô]

Nothing to worry about....
I feel better (http://www.lexpress.fr/info/france/dossier/armee/dossier.asp?ida=428548) now ;)

The French Army made with no doubt a giant step those last 5 years toward the average "grunt" personnal equipment. Even if you still meet a lot of guys buying stuff on the civil market (ie : boots / thermal underware / hydratation system).

[IDFM203]

They have God knows how many Mirage 2000Ds, that could do just that too, as well as the SEM and the Mirage F1 CTs depending on the threat level.

Nothing to worry about....


Hey, Gilgoul, easy on the paranoia; FMS is not JUST for Israel and there was no reference to Israel in my post.

Take a deep breath and stop thinking the world is out to get you !oh knock it off, it was quite evident which nation you meant even if you now say its in general................

Anyways even if you didn’t mean just for Israel, well still you did mean also Israel then, and well as gilgoul showed you in Israel’s case at least, your comments before were worng!!!


He doesn’t think the world is out to get him, but what’s clear is that your last response was a sign of YOUR paranoia that it was he out to get you when in fact as he explained he was just commenting from a French POV on how its sad that the your armed forces aren’t treated by your own government as they should be in terms of your military arms industry and its relation to its army..

So please look first in the mirror when you come at him with those "Paranoia” comments


Oh and to gilgoul..........great post :D

Paix :D

[fantassin]

I have l'"Express"on my desk as I write...

Every country uses personal kit depending on preferences; esp. the Brits and even the US units are getting more freedom on that aspect now.

It's very good the average soldier buys his own kit; it shows a lot of motivation and it shows that he wants to be have the best possible kit to be the most efficient soldier possible.


Oh no, the Israeli brigade is back.... ;)

BTW, when the IDF got its 102 F16I trough Peace Marbles, the FaF got 7 planes in the same time frame; that's what FMS means.

Please don't hijack yet another thread with those israeli related topics, it's getting tiresome. As a reminder, it started with the French navy....

[Pille1234]

They plan to use the ...Army helo Tiger instead! :roll:
After the third downed tiger they are going to reconsider that. :roll:

[Uncle Chô]

Please don't hijack yet another thread with those israeli related topics, it's getting tiresome. As a reminder, it started with the French navy....
Back to the roots! woot

http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow03/riat/partthree/rafale.jpg

[fantassin]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! :D


BTW, looks much better than the Lavi..... ;)

just joking....

[IDFM203]

Oh no, the Israeli brigade is back.... ;)

BTW, when the IDF got its 102 F16I trough Peace Marbles, the FaF got 7 planes in the same time frame; that's what FMS means.

hehe :lol: wow I as a individual says one thing and walla, you liken it to a brigade :roll: ;) :D

Now for your point here, indeed there is no denying that we do get things from FMS, however its not MOST of our stuff for our military budget each year is almost three times more then what we get from the "aid".

Btw you’re a much bigger nation with a much bigger economy, as such I simply don’t buy your argument that you only get 7 because you don’t get any FMS, well that doesn’t’ fly considering how big your nation and economy is.

Anyways I could go on much more on that and other points but indeed I am trying very hard to just limit my Reponses directly to the points that you made.


Please don't hijack yet another thread with those israeli related topics, it's getting tiresome. As a reminder, it started with the French navy.... :cantbeli: funny that’s exactly what I was thinking when you FIRST responded with your over the top response to gilguls little post and I thought, oh no not again :roll:


Lets get this clear, you hijacked this thread with your snide remark that IMO was clearly directed about Israel, so its quite disingenuous and absurd to see you now harp on others hijacking it when all I and gilgul were doing were RESPONDING to your initial hijack in this thread!!!!!

Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Oh I thought you were trying to not further discuss Israel here :roll:


anyways...........


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! :D


BTW, looks much better than the Lavi..... ;)

just joking....Actually to me it looks almost like a copy of it ;) ..................oh of course they improved on it, but the external similarities are striking p-) :D

Anyway indeed its an impressive aircraft, hey I would hope so, I mean you are a huge nation with a huge economy and as such I would think you should be able to produce something like that ;) …………to me I in Israel’s case I find it to be a great achievement that with the small size that we are, we were able to produce a very high quality aircraft, though indeed we were too small then to mass produce it but that should not take away from the accomplishments of the design and prototypes that we did make.


Shalom :D

[fantassin]

You just forget one thing: France is not at war so every year the MoD has to fight for its budget.

For once this year, it won and the finance minister was told in no uncertain terms by Chirac that the armed forces' budget would not be slashed like he asked.

That's why france has 12 times less MBTs than Israel, about 3 times less arty pieces, about 150 less cbt jets and so on.

[IDFM203]

You just forget one thing: France is not at war so every year the MoD has to fight for its budget.

For once this year, it won and the finance minister was told in no uncertain terms by Chirac that the armed forces' budget would not be slashed like he asked.

That's why france has 12 times less MBTs than Israel, about 3 times less arty pieces, about 150 less cbt jets and so on.I didn’t forget it and indeed I understand it..........however I simply note that you don’t get any less because you don’t get FMS, which (FMS) is something that you (wrongly) brought up as a comparison at first to show why one has more or less then the other.


Anyways indeed your not at war, but I believe gilguls initial point and also his other post is that even still, your own military is not treated as it should be by your own MoD even in your non-war settings and I believe even you can agree with that, or at least it was like that in his time? (I don’t know much about your military but that is what I got from both of your posts)


Shalom :D

[tooms]

€45 M per aircraft... And I have just read the Armée de l'Air is worried to engage such a pricy flying wonder for CAS missions... The old but cheap and trusty Sepecat Jaguar is going to be retire soon, leaving a gap. They plan to use the ...Army helo Tiger instead! :roll:

Hey hey fais gaffe a pas trop acheter air & cosmos, c'est cher comme magasine. ;)

[fantassin]

C'est pas "Air&Cosmos", dans le métier on dit "Air&Couscous"....

[tooms]

C'est pas "Air&Cosmos", dans le métier on dit "Air&Couscous"....

Eclaire ma lanterne, ou c'est juste un jeu de mot? p-)

[Uncle Chô]

Hey hey fait gaffe a pas trop acheter air & cosmos, c'est cher comme magasine. ;)
Aviation is my business... I need it because it is the only one in French with professional informations on the domestic market. I subscribe to several magazines (French, English and American) because I have to!

PS : tu noteras qu'ils chiffrent le Rafale à 100 M alors que sur le site du Ministère de la Défense il est quoté à 45 M "fly away" :cantbeli: J'ai corrigé mon post en conséquence ;)

[fantassin]

Tooms, check your messages....

[tooms]

[quote=tooms]

PS : tu noteras qu'ils chiffrent le Rafale à 100 M alors que sur le site du Ministère de la Défense il est quoté à 45 M "fly away" :cantbeli: J'ai corrigé mon post en conséquence ;)

C'est peut etre le prix de revient total du programme par avion ?

[Zarathustra]

Vous aller recevoir un avertissement à parler français tout le temps...

[gilgoul]

Oh I thought you were trying to not further discuss Israel here :roll:


anyways...........


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! :D


BTW, looks much better than the Lavi..... ;)

just joking....Actually to me it looks almost like a copy of it ;) ..................oh of course they improved on it, but the external similarities are striking p-) :D Anyway indeed its an impressive aircraft, hey I would hope so, I mean you are a huge nation with a huge economy and as such I would think you should be able to produce something like that ;) …………to me I in Israel’s case I find it to be a great achievement that with the small size that we are, we were able to produce a very high quality aircraft, though indeed we were too small then to mass produce it but that should not take away from the accomplishments of the design and prototypes that we did make.


Shalom :D





Thanks IDF :D
You simply put the words I couldn`t at the time.
To go back on topic, the rafale seems to be a very advanced aircraft, and the failure of the eurofighter shows the pertinency of the french approach when it comes to strategic asset, if you can`t do it with everyone, then do it alone, better.
Still, I`m sure that the french army did a enormous leap forward, went for brigade type, improved it`s general capacity and it`s "culture".
I don`t really apreciate the contempt of fantassin about this "conscription" army, just if a all professional one was the "top". At the time, most of the unit that were deployed in ex yugoslavia, as wel as other theater were conscript based and did a great job. Still, the mentality, the weight of the chain of command, the culture of "no initiative" impaired largely on the capavcities.
And at last, not to brag, we, the EED 2 got the chance to train and work with a lot of profesional and foreign forces during my little "conscript" time, and were always praised for our results and competences.
we weren`t the 2eme REP, far from it, but definitely in the higher pack.

[obd]

Ugh...what I am about to say is very difficult for me.....it takes courage and humility (and possibly lack of knowledge) to say this but I must be honest and I must get it off my chest........argh......ok...here....goes...

I really like the Rafale. Hats off to the french...They have produced an absolutely beautiful aircraft......in fact (I never thought I would say this) but I find it even more beautiful than the General Dynamics F-16 "fighting falcon" which for the last 15 years I have felt was the most beautiful flying object in the entire world...........I mean, just look at that picture of it!!!! Its FUxKING GORGEOUS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!

The rafale is a seriously capable aircraft as well......very high tech avionics and some really trick systems....great weapons.....limited stealth.....great cockpit layout.......etc etc etc......

Although the Rafale cannot match the F-22a "Raptor" in capability such as range (legs), sustained speed, mission turnaround, stealth, maximum payload, etc... ( and the JSF will be more advanced), for the amont of $$ the french spent on it they have done some amazing things....I mean, the French spent much less $$ than other European nations did on the vaunted and already out of date Eurofighter "Typhoon" and the Rafale is a better aircraft in many ways.....(although I think the Typhoon is more manueverable and can carry more missiles???)

So in closing: Good job France....

Oh waite, I ALMOST FORGOT!!!! JEEZ HOW COULD I FORGET!!!!!! The P-51D Mustang is the most beautifil flying object the world has ever seen......ok so the Rafale comes in a close second

ok, now I will shoot myself...goodbye.....cruel cruel world....

[obd]

Ugh...what I am about to say is very difficult for me.....it takes courage and humility (and possibly lack of knowledge) to say this but I must be honest and I must get it off my chest........argh......ok...here....goes...

I really like the Rafale. Hats off to the french...They have produced an absolutely beautiful aircraft......in fact (I never thought I would say this) but I find it even more beautiful than the General Dynamics F-16 "fighting falcon" which for the last 15 years I have felt was the most beautiful flying object in the entire world...........I mean, just look at that picture of it!!!! Its FUxKING GORGEOUS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!

The rafale is a seriously capable aircraft as well......very high tech avionics and some really trick systems....great weapons.....limited stealth.....great cockpit layout.......etc etc etc......

Although the Rafale cannot match the F-22a "Raptor" in capability such as range (legs), sustained speed, mission turnaround, stealth, maximum payload, etc... ( and the JSF will be more advanced), for the amont of $$ the french spent on it they have done some amazing things....I mean, the French spent much less $$ than other European nations did on the vaunted and already out of date Eurofighter "Typhoon" and the Rafale is a better aircraft in many ways.....(although I think the Typhoon is more manueverable and can carry more missiles???)

So in closing: Good job France....

Oh waite, I ALMOST FORGOT!!!! JEEZ HOW COULD I FORGET!!!!!! The P-51D Mustang is the most beautifil flying object the world has ever seen......ok so the Rafale comes in a close second

ok, now I will shoot myself...goodbye.....cruel cruel world....

[Uncle Chô]

I really like the Rafale. Hats off to the french...They have produced an absolutely beautiful aircraft......in fact (I never thought I would say this) but I find it even more beautiful than the General Dynamics F-16 "fighting falcon" which for the last 15 years I have felt was the most beautiful flying object in the entire world...........I mean, just look at that picture of it!!!! Its FUxKING GORGEOUS!
Since you are a good boy, you too could have even more fun with live action (http://www.dassault-aviation.com/passion/gb/mediatheque/telechargements/videos_avions.cfm) :D

Warning : avoid the soundtracks which are just plain horrible. Turn off the sound for your mental safety.

[gilgoul]

I really like the Rafale. Hats off to the french...They have produced an absolutely beautiful aircraft......in fact (I never thought I would say this) but I find it even more beautiful than the General Dynamics F-16 "fighting falcon" which for the last 15 years I have felt was the most beautiful flying object in the entire world...........I mean, just look at that picture of it!!!! Its FUxKING GORGEOUS!
Since you are a good boy, you too could have even more fun with live action (http://www.dassault-aviation.com/passion/gb/mediatheque/telechargements/videos_avions.cfm) :D

Warning : avoid the soundtracks which are just plain horrible. Turn off the sound for your mental safety.

Oncle cho, you re great :D

[gilgoul]

You just forget one thing: France is not at war so every year the MoD has to fight for its budget.

For once this year, it won and the finance minister was told in no uncertain terms by Chirac that the armed forces' budget would not be slashed like he asked.

That's why france has 12 times less MBTs than Israel, about 3 times less arty pieces, about 150 less cbt jets and so on.I didn’t forget it and indeed I understand it..........however I simply note that you don’t get any less because you don’t get FMS, which (FMS) is something that you (wrongly) brought up as a comparison at first to show why one has more or less then the other.


Anyways indeed your not at war, but I believe gilguls initial point and also his other post is that even still, your own military is not treated as it should be by your own MoD even in your non-war settings and I believe even you can agree with that, or at least it was like that in his time? (I don’t know much about your military but that is what I got from both of your posts)


Shalom :D

BTW, what was the first operational combat jet with the "bec de canard" (manoeuver fins before the wings)?

THE KFIR :D

[fantassin]

Which was a copy of the Mirage....

The first canards were seen as early as 1906 on the Santos-Dumont 14a...

[gilgoul]

Which was a copy of the Mirage....

The first canards were seen as early as 1906 on the Santos-Dumont 14a...

I talk about "OPERATIONAL" bec de canard. :D

You know if you keep reacting like that it will become a real pleasure to tease you :D
BTW , you are refering to the Mirage 5, developped according to the israeli "cahier des charges", payed for in part, and sold to LYBIA.
Something france doesn`t heve to pride itself for :bash:

[fantassin]

Unfortunately, about 50 mirage V remained in the Armée de l'Air where they proved less than popular with their clear weather only capabilities since they were based in the east of France, a place known for its sunny weather...not.

France had a foreign policy with the arab world before Israel existed; it should not come as a surprise that those links were maintained, especially with Charles de Gaulle in power.

[IDFM203]

Your welcome Gilgoul :D


Since you are a good boy, you too could have even more fun with live action (http://www.dassault-aviation.com/passion/gb/mediatheque/telechargements/videos_avions.cfm) :D

Warning : avoid the soundtracks which are just plain horrible. Turn off the sound for your mental safety.hehe :lol: I didn’t watch the videos but your warning here reminds me of the one I gave a while back with my post and link (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=220644&highlight=corner+shot#220644) to a video promotional of the Israeli corner shot weapon and well there too I warned to ignore the music.

gees, what’s up with “both of us” making great military products but having very ****ty "marketing" departments or at least very ****ty music people working in them :roll: ;)



Which was a copy of the Mirage....

hehe ;) I knew that was coming however I belive the canards were first put on the Kfir and not on the mirage (and like gilgul says, the Mirage was built to our specifications and modifcations that we requested and added before we were forced to buid our own and improve on the Mirage which the Kfir is indeed an improvement :D )

I believe gilgul is right in that indeed the first jet to have canards was the Israeli Kfir


Shalom :D

[OldRecon]

You just forget one thing: France is not at war so every year the MoD has to fight for its budget.

For once this year, it won and the finance minister was told in no uncertain terms by Chirac that the armed forces' budget would not be slashed like he asked.

That's why france has 12 times less MBTs than Israel, about 3 times less arty pieces, about 150 less cbt jets and so on.I didn’t forget it and indeed I understand it..........however I simply note that you don’t get any less because you don’t get FMS, which (FMS) is something that you (wrongly) brought up as a comparison at first to show why one has more or less then the other.


Anyways indeed your not at war, but I believe gilguls initial point and also his other post is that even still, your own military is not treated as it should be by your own MoD even in your non-war settings and I believe even you can agree with that, or at least it was like that in his time? (I don’t know much about your military but that is what I got from both of your posts)


Shalom :D

BTW, what was the first operational combat jet with the "bec de canard" (manoeuver fins before the wings)?

THE KFIR :D

Sorry to arrest you there buth this was the first canard wing combat jet in regular service:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/viggen_p3.jpg
http://user.tninet.se/~xpz458v/FC-rote.jpg
http://user.tninet.se/~xpz458v/37-7.jpg
http://www.vectorsite.net/avvig_1.jpg

The SAAB AJ37 Viggen.
First flight: 8. February 1967
First flight of series production aircraft: 23. February 1971

[gilgoul]

You just forget one thing: France is not at war so every year the MoD has to fight for its budget.

For once this year, it won and the finance minister was told in no uncertain terms by Chirac that the armed forces' budget would not be slashed like he asked.

That's why france has 12 times less MBTs than Israel, about 3 times less arty pieces, about 150 less cbt jets and so on.I didn’t forget it and indeed I understand it..........however I simply note that you don’t get any less because you don’t get FMS, which (FMS) is something that you (wrongly) brought up as a comparison at first to show why one has more or less then the other.


Anyways indeed your not at war, but I believe gilguls initial point and also his other post is that even still, your own military is not treated as it should be by your own MoD even in your non-war settings and I believe even you can agree with that, or at least it was like that in his time? (I don’t know much about your military but that is what I got from both of your posts)


Shalom :D

BTW, what was the first operational combat jet with the "bec de canard" (manoeuver fins before the wings)?

THE KFIR :D

Sorry to arrest you there buth this was the first canard wing combat jet in regular service:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/viggen_p3.jpg

The SAAB AJ37 Viggen.
First flight: 8. February 1967
First flight of series production aircraft: 23. February 1971


Ouuppsss, my bad, I forgot this one :oops:

I`ll have to go to do penitence now bro`s , I think that a jaegermaester will do the trick. :D

[OldRecon]

You just forget one thing: France is not at war so every year the MoD has to fight for its budget.

For once this year, it won and the finance minister was told in no uncertain terms by Chirac that the armed forces' budget would not be slashed like he asked.

That's why france has 12 times less MBTs than Israel, about 3 times less arty pieces, about 150 less cbt jets and so on.I didn’t forget it and indeed I understand it..........however I simply note that you don’t get any less because you don’t get FMS, which (FMS) is something that you (wrongly) brought up as a comparison at first to show why one has more or less then the other.


Anyways indeed your not at war, but I believe gilguls initial point and also his other post is that even still, your own military is not treated as it should be by your own MoD even in your non-war settings and I believe even you can agree with that, or at least it was like that in his time? (I don’t know much about your military but that is what I got from both of your posts)


Shalom :D

BTW, what was the first operational combat jet with the "bec de canard" (manoeuver fins before the wings)?

THE KFIR :D

Sorry to arrest you there buth this was the first canard wing combat jet in regular service:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/viggen_p3.jpg

The SAAB AJ37 Viggen.
First flight: 8. February 1967
First flight of series production aircraft: 23. February 1971


Ouuppsss, my bad, I forgot this one :oops:

I`ll have to go to do penitence now bro`s , I think that a jaegermaester will do the trick. :D

Or a Vodka shot (Absolut) ;) :)

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

French aircrafts used by the IAF :

-OURAGAN
-MYSTERE IVA
-VAUTOUR
-SUPER MYSTERE B2 (SMB2)
-MIRAGE III CJ

http://www.geocities.com/zkrisher/frnchfrm.htm
Look at the article by Jean Paul Viaud on http://www.chez.com/mirage3/

Several French pilots served in Israel in 1956 and perhaps also later. At first they were mainly French instructors on Ouragan and Mystère IVA and after that 1 French pilot generally flow with 4-6 Israeli pilots when transfering the planes from France to Israel.

In 1956, an agreement beween France and Israel led to the decision that the French Air Force will participate to the Israeli air space, allowing the maximum of the IAF to first attack the Egyptian air bases and second to provide support to the ground forces, especially the armored units of Moshe Dayan. Several Mystère IV and F-86 Sabre squadrons from Dijon and Saint-Dizier (with Israeli markings, not French markings) will be sent to Israel. Other French units equipped with Noratlas transport aircrafts provided supply to Tsahal in the Sinai. And concerning the French navy, several ships ('Kersaint', 'Surcouf' and 'Bouvet') were deployed along the coast to provide protection.

See : http://medintelligence.free.fr/BdSuez.htm

Note : in a little aside, some of the victories and losses only related to the Israeli Mirage aircrafts :

During 1963-1967 the victories include :
1x Hunter
2x MIG-17
2x MIG-19
9x MIG-21
...

During the 6-days war in 1967 the IAF lost 6 Mirage and the victories include :
6x Hunter
9x MIG-17
16x MIG-19
30x MIG-21 (incuding 3 piloted by Soviet instructors ... 2 other Soviet piloted MIG-21s have been shot down by Phantoms)
4x SU-7
1x TU-16
2x IL-28
...

During 1967-1973 the victories include :
19x MIG-17
116x MIG-21
10x SU-7
2x IL-28
...

Kippur war in 1973 : 12 Mirage losses and 110 victories to the credit of the Mirage, including this incomplete listing :
1x Hunter
2x MIG-17
42x MIG-21
5x SU-7
4x Mirage V (Lybia)
6x unknown aircrafts
1x MI-8 helicopter
and ... 1x Kelt missile


I would say that the French Mirage III (and its derivatives Mirage V and Mirage 50) was one of the most successful aircraft ever created in French aero-industry. It is a fighter/bomber and interceptor but its enormous robustness and multi-role capability of the aircraft led to the development of other versions, including reconnaissance and ground-attack versions. This plane allowed France to enter the still very select club of mach 2 in 1960. It remained in service until 1994 in France and it is still used by several countries.

http://www.chez.com/mirage3/

http://www.vectorsite.net/avmir3.html#m6

http://www.ksurf.net/~fanakit/docphoto/mirage3/3e.jpg

- Mirage IIIA: Pre-production aircraft.
- Mirage IIIB: Biplace version of the Mirage IIIA.
- Mirage III-BJ/L/S/Z: Similar to the IIIB, built for Israel (BJ), Lebanon (BL), Switzerland (BS) and South Africa (BZ);
- Mirage IIIC: All-weather interceptor, with daylight attack capability, equipped with SNECMA Atar 09B turbijets.
- Mirage III-CJ/CZ: Similar to the IIIC, built for Israel (CJ) and South Africa (CZ);
- Mirage IIIE: Long-range version, evolved from the C version. Largest built variant of the Mirage III family;
- Mirage III-EL/EP/EZ/EBR/EA/EAD/EV/EE/CJ: Variants of the IIIE built for Lebanon (EL), Pakistan (EP), South Africa (EZ), Brazil (EBR), Argentina (EA), Abu Dhabi (EAD), Venezuela (EV), Spain (EE) and Israel (CJ);
- Mirage III-O: Variant of the Mirage IIIE built for Australia;
- Mirage III-S: Variant of the Mirage IIIE licence-built in Switzerland;
- Mirage IIID: Biplace variant of the IIIE, known as IIIDBR in Brazilian service;
- Mirage IIIR: Reconnaissance variant of the IIIE;
- Mirage III-RD: Similar to the IIIR, built for France (RD), South Africa (RZ and RDZ), Pakistan (RP) and Switzerland(RS);
- Mirage 5: Ground-attack version, with or without radar; and
- Mirage 50: Upgraded version of the ground-attack Mirage 5.

The Mirage III has been used all over the world and delivered to 21 countries :

- Israel : the IAF used it successfully during the different wars and the Mirage III showed its superiority towards its "Russian" counterparts like the Mig-21. Israel have built its own variants : Nesher and Kfir.
- Australia : replacing the Sabre, the Mirage was the RAAF's first supersonic aircraft, being selected over the F-104 Starfighter, F-5 Freedom Fighter, the Phantom II and the English Lightning. From the third Mirage, the aircraft were assembled in Australia from French components. The last public flights of RAAF Mirage aircraft were in September 1988 at the Bicentennial Air Show at Richmond, NSW, and a few weeks later, at Avalon air show. In 1990, fifty were sold to the Pakistan Air Force.
- South Africa : the Cheetah
- Argentinia : the Dagger
- Chile : the Pantera
- Belgium
- Spain
- Abu Dhabi
- Brazil
- Columbia
- Egypt
- Gabon
- Lebanon
- Libya
- Pakistan
- Switzerland : now they have been replaced by US F/A 18
- Venezuela
- Zaire
...

Regards,

David

[IDFM203]

Well on the point of between the Kfir and the Mirage, it was on the Kfir I believe where it was first put on by Israel ;) :D



Ouuppsss, my bad, I forgot this one :oops:

I`ll have to go to do penitence now bro`s , I think that a jaegermaester will do the trick. :D

Or a Vodka shot (Absolut) ;) :)Well I guess I need a shot of it as well since I backed gilgoul on this ;)

Anyways yes I like your choice of Absolut especially this Version (http://www.judaicaheaven.com/stores/judaicaheaven/catalog/absolutisrael_2.jpg) ;) :D

Shalom :D

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

I just wanted to share some photos with you :

RAFALE :

http://netaviation.free.fr/normal/rafale/galerie/gd17.jpg

http://netaviation.free.fr/normal/rafale/galerie/gd7.jpg

http://netaviation.free.fr/normal/rafale/galerie/gd10.jpg

http://netaviation.free.fr/normal/rafale/galerie/gd22.jpg

http://netaviation.free.fr/normal/rafale/galerie/gd25.jpg

http://netaviation.free.fr/normal/rafale/galerie/gd27.jpg

http://www.aircity.org/gen8/avions/rafale/10.jpg

http://www.aircity.org/gen8/avions/rafale/12.jpg


TIGER MEET :

- MIRAGE 2000C :

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/mediatheque/phototeque/img9.jpg

see also :

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photog/0303/000906.jpg

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photog/0203/000473.jpg


- MIRAGE 2000-5 :

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photog/0203/000477.jpg



MIRAGE 2000-5 :

http://netdefense2.free.fr/images/france/armee_de_air/mirage2000/mirage2000-9.jpg

see also :

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photog/0203/000477.jpg


MIRAGE 2000D :

go to these photos

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photog/0103/000323.jpg

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photog/0103/000333.jpg

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photog/0203/000868.jpg

Regards,

David

(I have not put all the photos on screen because several are big ones)

[OldRecon]

Well on the point of between the Kfir and the Mirage, it was on the Kfir I believe where it was first put on by Israel ;) :D



Ouuppsss, my bad, I forgot this one :oops:

I`ll have to go to do penitence now bro`s , I think that a jaegermaester will do the trick. :D

Or a Vodka shot (Absolut) ;) :)Well I guess I need a shot of it as well since I backed gilgoul on this ;)

Anyways yes I like your choice of Absolut especially this Version (http://www.judaicaheaven.com/stores/judaicaheaven/catalog/absolutisrael_2.jpg) ;) :D

Shalom :D

Ah the land of milk and hony! :)
Is that a common perception of your own country among Israelis?
(Sort of one of the impressions I came away with from my UN service, though I never heard it spoken as openly as presented i this pic.
As a comparison the general perception of Norwegians on their own country is more like: "Despite the winter months, we ain't all that bad off after all" :) )

[David Lehmann]

French Fleet Air Arm in operation over Afghanistan :

http://netdefense1.free.fr/CDG-1.rar (43.9 MB) ... links seems momently broken but I have the video in my HD, very good one.
I have found the video here again : http://www.atwar.net/content.php?article.116 but apparently you need to signup or to have a Gamespy account or something like that.

http://download.go-legion.com/movies/air%20force/super%20etandard/af_etendard.mpg (75,1MB)

Super Etendard, Rafale, Hawkeye and Dauphin/Panther in action on the Charles de Gaulle carrier and USAF tanker.

Virtual visit of the CdG : http://www.defense.gouv.fr/visites_virtuelles/version_anglaise/cdg_ang/embarquez/

... and a few more few Rafale photos :

http://www.netmarine.net/forces/aviat/rafale/photo25.jpg

http://planete.air.free.fr/images/Millitaires/Rafale%2010.jpg

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/porteavi/cdg/photo63.jpg

http://www.netmarine.net/forces/aviat/rafale/photo03.jpg

http://www.netmarine.net/forces/aviat/rafale/photo16.jpg

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/romain.g/rafale-B.jpg


Among current planes my favorites are the Rafale and the Grippen ... and for the oldies my favorite is the Skyraider.

David

[David Lehmann]

Other French aircrafts photos :

Mirage 2000D :

http://www.ec3-3ardennes.com/photo/vol28.jpg

http://www.ec3-3ardennes.com/fond/ec3_3_010.jpg

http://www.ec3-3ardennes.com/fond/ec3_3_012.jpg


Mirage 2000B crew

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=583f0aae0d5497a


Mirage 2000D

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=1194051cd4583fdb

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=13ebf738a7e65e


Mirage IVP : first developped to deliver the 300 kt ASMP nuclear missile and then used for recon mission (20,000m high and mach 2.2)

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=121407806c9a4966

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=10040129612798b0

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photom/0203/000789.jpg

http://pegase.foxalpha.com/photom/0203/000879.jpg


C-SAR team :

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=804077ee6ec3d47

Regards,

David

[David Lehmann]

About the Rafale :
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/rafale/index.html

Although the site is not up to date ... there are currently more Rafale on the Charles De Gaulle.

The Dassault Rafale program is composed of three versions of multi-purpose twin-engine combat aircraft : single-seat air version Rafale C, two-seat air version Rafale B and single/two-seat navy version Rafale M. These three versions are fitted with the same engines, the same navigation and attack system, the aircraft management system and the flight control system. They are all able to perform all types of missions from ground attack to air superiority.
The flight qualities and performances stem from the "delta-canard" aerodynamic concept combining a delta wing and an active foreplane judiciously located in relation to the wing so as to optimize aerodynamic efficiency and stability control without impeding the pilot's visibility. Moreover, shapes and materials have been continuously selected to minimized the aircraft observability to both electro-magnetic and infra-red sensors. For the moment only 12 Rafale in duty in the French Navy. The total program for France, Air Force and Navy, is set at 294 aircraft.

A totally new protection system called SPECTRA.
Aiming with the helmet
A very modern radar RBE-2 (electronic scanning)

Up to 9500 kg external charges and 14 weapons load points.
Armament consists of :
- one 30 mm DEFA 791B cannon
- short range AA IR missile Matra R550 Magic 2
- medium range AA EM and/or IR missile MICA
- the future long range AA EM missile METEOR
- stand-off cruise missile APACHE and SCALP/STORM SHADOW (single charge or sub-munitions, special version for anti-airbase operations)
- anti-ship missile AM-39 EXOCET
- stand-off missile laser guided AS30L
- the nuclear missile ASMP
- different laser guided bombs or classical bombs
- the future ASMPA Air Ground missile with classical payload
- the future AASM (armement air sol modulable) GPS guided bombs
etc.

Concerning the Aircraft Carriers ... Currently there is only one in duty, a nuclear powered AC the R91 Charles de Gaulle (entered in service in 2001). One or two other ones will be acquired but with a different design, not nuclear powered and developped together with Great-Britain.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/gaulle/index.html

The R98 Clemenceau (from the 60's but several times modernized) has been disarmed and the R99 Foch (also from the 60's but several times modernized) has been sold to Brazil and is now the Sao Paulo

David

[David Lehmann]

French aircrafts with weapons display ... I was looking or this kind of photo with a Rafale but could not find one :

http://falcon4.0.free.fr/image/Mirage%202000.jpg

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/532807/L/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/161888/L/

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=1194051cd4583fdb

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=724051cd7a3fd53

http://www.airpixel.com/recherche/multicriteres.phtml?link=oui&ref=283ee5991fae43f

Regards,

David

[szr]

Great Pics! Thanks David!

[Zarathustra]

Pretty job david, thanks so lot ! woot

[OldRecon]

To say that the Rafale is a copy of the Lavi..., well for one the Lavi was a single engined aircraft, and seccond it had an F-16 style chin intake.
If there's anything of a copy about the Rafale vs. the Lavi, I guess that would be more ****ounced with regards to cockpit layout than airframe.
Understand it so that the Lavi was once a a milestone and benchmark in combat jet cockpit layout and that some features of that layout was copied in the F/A-18 Hornet amongst others?
As for beauty I think the Rafale is even more of a beauty than the F-16 and much more of a beauty than either the Eurofighter or Raptor, with its more smoothly rounded countours.
As for the Eurofighter and failure, the program is still on with regards to aircraft procurement for the air forces of Germany, Italy and Great Brittain isn't it?

http://aircraftstories.free.fr/mono/lavi/proto/17.jpg

[David Lehmann]

The Lavi is more of a kind of modernized 'copy' of the F16 in the pure upgrade/amelioration tradition of the IAF and Tsahal in general, able to make new and efficient things with older ones (tanks or planes) ... the Rafale has absolutely nothing to do with it.

David

[usa320]

it might look nice, but it still remains unproven in combat, and chances are with the french being how they are, it never will see combat.

[DLodge]

An interesting fact about the Lavi that a lot of people don't know is the "Pratt and Whitney PW1120 engines; graphite epoxy composite materials; electronic countermeasures (ECM) parts; radar-warning receivers and their logarithms; wide-angle, heads-up display; programmable signal-processor emulator; flight-control computer; single-crystal turbine technology; and computer and airframe system" were all made in the U.S. of A.

"At the time the Lavi program was terminated, US contractors were building approximately 40 percent of the aircraft's systems."

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/3fal90.html

[IDFM203]

Well on the point of between the Kfir and the Mirage, it was on the Kfir I believe where it was first put on by Israel ;) :D



Ouuppsss, my bad, I forgot this one :oops:

I`ll have to go to do penitence now bro`s , I think that a jaegermaester will do the trick. :D

Or a Vodka shot (Absolut) ;) :)Well I guess I need a shot of it as well since I backed gilgoul on this ;)

Anyways yes I like your choice of Absolut especially this Version (http://www.judaicaheaven.com/stores/judaicaheaven/catalog/absolutisrael_2.jpg) ;) :D

Shalom :D

Ah the land of milk and hony! :)
Is that a common perception of your own country among Israelis?
(Sort of one of the impressions I came away with from my UN service, though I never heard it spoken as openly as presented i this pic.
Well its like the pic there says, in 1948 (and before) basically “hell no”, not even close, though through hard sweat and determination and a huge will to survive and prosper and with a lot of ingenuity, I believe we have enabled a lot of us to think we have archived a lot to where we can somewhat think that, though I will say that a land of milk and honey and the way it implies, I don’t think anyone of us think we are fully there.


Now in biblical times, well that’s a whole other matter on what most of us believe from that time and how the land indeed was the land of milk and honey.


An interesting fact about the Lavi that a lot of people don't know is the "Pratt and Whitney PW1120 engines; graphite epoxy composite materials; electronic countermeasures (ECM) parts; radar-warning receivers and their logarithms; wide-angle, heads-up display; programmable signal-processor emulator; flight-control computer; single-crystal turbine technology; and computer and airframe system" were all made in the U.S. of A.

"At the time the Lavi program was terminated, US contractors were building approximately 40 percent of the aircraft's systems."

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/3fal90.htmlwell well nice to see you back, I had missed those “fun” pilot and air force superiority arguments ;) :P ………..(oh and I stayed out of it but just recent while back on this forum there was another “fun” back and forth involving the IAF and the USAF in “mock battles”, though this time it didn’t involve our IAF ;) )


Anyways as for what you wrote here, well from that U.S. source, to me 40 percent seems a bit of a exaggeration, though I will admit that some percentage was not Israeli made.

And?

That’s normal as I believe almost all (or I will say a lot of) arms producing nations use foriegn parts or “borrow” ideas from others and use it in their “own” designs and they still call it thier own, I mean besides the U.S. having a lot of Israeli innovations and avionics in its planes, even in the Abrams tanks for example, you have German engines, though its still a U.S. made tank.

Well the same here, the Lavi is still mostly a Israeli made and invented plane and in fact a lot of the avionics and electronic systems that Israel pioneered from that plane were later used for upgrades on our F16’s to where I believe even now (from those programs) the F-16I has over 25 percent of it to be Israeli made!! :D

Shalom :D

[AFACadet]

Which was a copy of the Mirage....

The first canards were seen as early as 1906 on the Santos-Dumont 14a...

Wright Flyer of 1903 anyone?????? :P

;)

[fantassin]

Quote:

It might look nice, but it still remains unproven in combat, and chances are with the french being how they are, it never will see combat


Another stupid comment; all current French combat aircrafts have seen action several times. France was the second most important provider of bombers both in Kosovo and Afghanistan.

-Jaguar: Mauritania, Chad, GW1, Bosnia, Kosovo
-Mirage F1:Chad, Bosnia, Kosovo, GW1
-Mirage 2000: GW1, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan
-Super Etendard: Lebanon, Bosnia, Kosovo (with the highest hit ratio of all NATO aircrafts), Afghanistan (777 missions flown with the Rafale in support of OEF)

This is not taking into accounts deployments in Africa like Rwanda, Congo etc.

The Ouadi Doum raid against the Lybian in 1987:

While Transalls of the French AF began deploying 1.400 French troops and support equipment to N’Djamena, 12 Jaguars and eight Mirage F.1C-200s, supported by at least two C-135FR tankers and one Atlantique, took off from Bangui airfield in Central African Republic for a tremendous strike against Ouadi Doum AB. Eight of Jaguars were equipped with BAP.100 anti-runway bombs (BAP = "bombe anti-pist"), while four carried standard 250kg "iron" bombs: one had to abort shortly before the take off because of technical problems, so that eventually only eleven took part in the attack.

The Libyans at Ouadi Doum never expected such an action and were taken completely by surprise: the air defence sites were first hit by the four Jaguars dropping 250kg bombs, and then the remaining fighters plastered the runway with BAP.100s. The damage was considerable, and the airfield remained closed for several days.

(From ACIG)

[Miles Teg]

Usa320 : 3557+ pieces of bull****.

it never will see combat.
Yes! And we are proud of this fact!

David? Any chance to see you on check six?


Typhoon? Failure? That's a little bit harsh. I hope to see it operationnal too !

[WestCoastG's]

Did you know a fully loaded rafale cant take off of frances only aircraft carrier( he he they only have one) the Charles Degaulle. The Charles Degaulle only has a submarine nuclear reactor which means it cant go as fast or as far as the US Carriers. Also when the reactor goes offline all power is lost and all systems including the radio are useless. Thats what happens when you build an aircraft carrier on the cheap.

[Miles Teg]

Charles Degaulle only has a submarine nuclear reactor

2 reactors...
http://www.netmarine.net/bat/porteavi/cdg/9406.jpg


( he he they only have one) the Charles Degaulle
WWoohoo! What a scoop!
But we are in discussion for a second one.


as far as the US Carriers
:|


when the reactor goes offline all power is lost and all systems including the radio are useless
False
It's also equiped with diesel power units.



it cant go as fast
33,6 for Entreprise
35 for Nimitz
28 for Charles De Gaulle

[Uncle Chô]

Did you know a fully loaded rafale cant take off of frances only aircraft carrier( he he they only have one) the Charles Degaulle. The Charles Degaulle only has a submarine nuclear reactor which means it cant go as fast or as far as the US Carriers. Also when the reactor goes offline all power is lost and all systems including the radio are useless. Thats what happens when you build an aircraft carrier on the cheap.
rofl Interesting comments from a 15 years old US student who early wrote in his profile : " interest = anything military related, **** " then later pled to have the right to come back to this Forum after some insulting posts...

[BlackRain]

The Ouadi Doum raid against the Lybian in 1987:

While Transalls of the French AF began deploying 1.400 French troops and support equipment to N’Djamena, 12 Jaguars and eight Mirage F.1C-200s, supported by at least two C-135FR tankers and one Atlantique, took off from Bangui airfield in Central African Republic for a tremendous strike against Ouadi Doum AB. Eight of Jaguars were equipped with BAP.100 anti-runway bombs (BAP = "bombe anti-pist"), while four carried standard 250kg "iron" bombs: one had to abort shortly before the take off because of technical problems, so that eventually only eleven took part in the attack.

The Libyans at Ouadi Doum never expected such an action and were taken completely by surprise: the air defence sites were first hit by the four Jaguars dropping 250kg bombs, and then the remaining fighters plastered the runway with BAP.100s. The damage was considerable, and the airfield remained closed for several days.


You left out the part about how the French had to rely on the good old USA to bail them out there.


This, however, couldn’t prevent the Libyan Air Force to strike back in a similar way. Only one day later, a single Tu-22B approached N’Djamena flying along commercial route, then accelerated to Mach 1 and climbed to 5.030m before dropping three heavy bombs against the airfield near the Chadian capital, where French troops were still landing. Despite the considerable speed and height, the attack was extremely precise: two bombs hit the runway, and one demolished the taxiway, and the airfield of N’Djamena was closed for three following days as a consequence! Subsequently, the French were fast to charter a USAF C-5 Galaxy transport, which flew in a battery each of Crotale and MIM-23B I-Hawk SAMs to bolster the defences. Also, two Jaguar As and a single KC-135F were deployed to Chad. By that time, however, the message was delivered: the Libyans would not left anybody to throw them out of Chad that easy.

[OldRecon]

The Ouadi Doum raid against the Lybian in 1987:

While Transalls of the French AF began deploying 1.400 French troops and support equipment to N’Djamena, 12 Jaguars and eight Mirage F.1C-200s, supported by at least two C-135FR tankers and one Atlantique, took off from Bangui airfield in Central African Republic for a tremendous strike against Ouadi Doum AB. Eight of Jaguars were equipped with BAP.100 anti-runway bombs (BAP = "bombe anti-pist"), while four carried standard 250kg "iron" bombs: one had to abort shortly before the take off because of technical problems, so that eventually only eleven took part in the attack.

The Libyans at Ouadi Doum never expected such an action and were taken completely by surprise: the air defence sites were first hit by the four Jaguars dropping 250kg bombs, and then the remaining fighters plastered the runway with BAP.100s. The damage was considerable, and the airfield remained closed for several days.


You left out the part about how the French had to rely on the good old USA to bail them out there.


This, however, couldn’t prevent the Libyan Air Force to strike back in a similar way. Only one day later, a single Tu-22B approached N’Djamena flying along commercial route, then accelerated to Mach 1 and climbed to 5.030m before dropping three heavy bombs against the airfield near the Chadian capital, where French troops were still landing. Despite the considerable speed and height, the attack was extremely precise: two bombs hit the runway, and one demolished the taxiway, and the airfield of N’Djamena was closed for three following days as a consequence! Subsequently, the French were fast to charter a USAF C-5 Galaxy transport, which flew in a battery each of Crotale and MIM-23B I-Hawk SAMs to bolster the defences. Also, two Jaguar As and a single KC-135F were deployed to Chad. By that time, however, the message was delivered: the Libyans would not left anybody to throw them out of Chad that easy.

The Crotale crew according to the published memoir of a Norwegian ex-legionnaire were also caught napping on a later occasion by the Libyan T-22's. Though on that occasion or a further one still the French managed to shoot one of the Tupolevs down, upon which the burned corpse of the pilot was identified as belonging to an East-German national.

[David Lehmann]

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_360.shtml

David