Israel's 10 worst errors of the decade

[Ordie]

Israel's 10 worst errors of the decade

By Bradley Burston

Tags: Israel News, Gaza War




In the Mideast, dreams can only end badly. Not because messianic messages are, in and of themselves, bad dreams, but because of the nature of this place, the history which is as much imagination as it is record, as much sacred hallucination as it is shared memory. And because the dreamers of this place fail again and again because they are under the illusion that they are realists.

The decade just passing is one in which Middle East dreams came to die. It began, appropriately, with an Israeli leader who saw his place in history as dependent on imposing a peace plan on the entire Arab world, and a Palestinian icon who saw his place in history as dependent on saying no.

In no decade of the modern Middle East has the roll of failure been so democratic. The titans Arafat and Sharon fought their battle to the death, and both lost. Bill Clinton, Ehud Barak, Hassan Nasrallah, Ahmed Yassin, hilltop youth, Al Aqsa Martyrs, Yossi Beilin, the Yesha Council, even Jimmy Carter - all dreamed Icarus dreams and realized, only too late, that in the brilliant sun of the Holy Land, wings of feathers and wax reveal their true selves, which is to say, nothing more than feathers and wax.

It was a decade framed by a fundamentalist Palestinian belief in salvation through suicide and a fundamentalist Israeli belief in salvation through brutality.

The decade ends as it began, clueless, hopeless, exhausted. For having lived through this, we are, all of us, somehow much more than 10 years older, yet none the wiser. In fact, what passed for our wisdom had died with our dreams. Socialist collectivism, rabid Revisionism, Reagan-Thatcher neo-conservatism, none of them has anything to teach us.

The Palestinians are ideological orphans as well. Ten years ago, they were promised that the armed struggle would cause the Jewish state to collapse like a spider's web. Ten years ago, they might have had a state of their own. Now they can barely breathe.

For both peoples, the lessons of this decade are unbearable. No Greater Israel, no Peace Now, no Wholly Palestinian Palestine, no Two State solution. Perhaps this is truly what the messiah has decided to settle for: a situation in which every single inhabitant of the land is unhappy to the same extent.

In this regard, there is perhaps no better time than this to review Israel's 10 Worst Mistakes of the Last 10 Years:

1. The Siege of Gaza - The stated goal of the siege was to undermine Hamas and to goad Gazans into rejecting Hamas rule. The effect of the siege has been to focus and intensify Palestinian anger against Israel, increase Gazans' dependency on Hamas social welfare arms, enrich Hamas coffers through tunnel taxation and foreign donations, and sap Palestinian support for Fatah, which, through its back-channel encouragement for the siege, is seen as a betrayer and a boot-licker in the eyes of many Palestinians.

2. The Siege of Gaza - The blockade was ostensibly a means to stem the influx of weaponry into Gaza. In practice, with shipments the size of automobiles flowing through the tunnels, the Hamas arsenal has grown ever more sophisticated, now believed to include Iranian-manufactured rockets capable of striking Tel Aviv and Ben-Gurion Airport from the Strip.

3. The Siege of Gaza - In the eyes of the world community, the overwhelming collective punishment - and the relative silence of Israelis in response - has gutted Israeli claims to the moral high ground. It has undercut sympathy for Israelis living within Qassam range. It has kept open the moral wounds of the Gaza War, cramping rebuilding efforts, enshrining universal unemployment, and ensuring agonizing homelessness as the coastal winter gathers full force. Israeli officials have quietly take steps of astounding insensitivity, arbitrarily barring such goods as school supplies.

4. The Siege of Gaza - The siege has been presented in the past as a means of pressing Hamas to release Gilad Shalit. Not only does he remain captive, the terms of a prospective deal appear not to include lifting the siege. The siege has been presented in the past as a means of pressuring Gazans to end rocket fire. But rocket fire only increased after the siege was put in place. Finally, Cast Lead, the Gaza war a year ago, might have been prevented altogether, had Israel adhered more closely to the Egyptian-brokered Hamas-Israel truce agreement of June, 2008, and lifted the siege more completely in response to a drop in rocket fire.

5. The Siege of Gaza - The siege works to the detriment of U.S. support for Israel. In February, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton signaled anger at Israel over obstacles to humanitarian aid entering the strip. The message came soon after Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman John Kerry, visiting Gaza, learned that Israel had blocked shipments of pasta, ruling it off the list of permitted humanitarian aid items.

6. The Siege of Gaza - The fact that the siege has failed so completely in achieving its stated aims, reinforces the impression that its real purpose is punitive.

7. The Siege of Gaza - The siege places Israeli officials in jeopardy of being charged with violating the Fourth Geneva Convention and other international codes, as outlined in detail in the Goldstone Report. Referring to the siege, paragraph 1335 of the report states that: "From the facts available to it, the Mission is of the view that some of the actions of the Government of Israel might justify a competent court finding that crimes against humanity have been committed."

8. The Siege of Gaza - With the siege under the direct aegis of Defense Minister Ehud Barak and his deputy, Matan Vilnai, the moral failings of the siege could prove the coup de grace to an already foundering Labor Party.

9. The Siege of Gaza - The siege threatens to destabilize the rule of Hosni Mubarak in Egypt, posing a potential threat to Israeli-Egyptian peace and Israeli security.

10. The Siege of Gaza - The siege corrupts the moral values of all Israelis, who, whether or not they are aware of what is being done to the people of Gaza, bear ultimate responsibility for all acts being carried out in their name.
Source:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1138809.html

[Octavariable]

Ordie is the new Vettec (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=31145)...

get a life

[BlackFlag]

What's that 4-5 flame destined threads in the last day or so?

Take a chill pill, Ordie.

[RoyB]

Perhaps this is truly what the messiah has decided to settle for: a situation in which every single inhabitant of the land is unhappy to the same extent.
His use of the Messiah as some kind of responsible figure, and him using it kinda gives us a clue of who he thinks is to blame.
That use is both absurd, and might be offending for some.

The Siege of Gaza
If there wasn't any other option, than how is it a mistake?
Instead of repeating the same ten times in a row he should have come up with a fitting solution.
If he doesn't have one, how can he shed his judgment on Israel?

the overwhelming collective punishment
How is this a collective punishment?
The People of Gaza had chosen Hamas as their government, as their representative officials.
What is the purpose of them if not to represent the wills of the Gazan's?
The fact that Hamas were brought to power by the Gazan's in a democratic way gives Israel every right to hold Hamas, and the whole territory and population residing in this territory responsible for the actions of their elected officials.
While I'm in this matter, I was surprised(or was I?) to find a spike of hypocrisy, regarding this issue.
While the author of the article finds it fit to announce Israel's actions as "overwhelming collective punishment", turning the Palestinians of Gaza unresponsible for their officials actions, he proudly declare Israelis as a whole, as responsible for what is being done in Gaza.
Better said in his words-

The siege corrupts the moral values of all Israelis, who, whether or not they are aware of what is being done to the people of Gaza, bear ultimate responsibility for all acts being carried out in their name.
Now isn't that pure hypocrisy? being brought to us on a silver platter.
The People of Gaza are unresponsible for their democratically elected officials actions, while the People of Israel are.

What an asswipe reporter.:roll:

[clean]

What's your opinion, Ordie? I like that you post these things, it stirs debate, but would like to hear where you stand.

[Mordoror]

The fact that Hamas were brought to power by the Gazan's in a democratic way gives Israel every right to hold Hamas, and the whole territory and population residing in this territory responsible for the actions of their elected officials.this argument is specious to say the least
and was previously used to promote Fatwahs against civilians and justify the killing of women and children during the 9/11
i dare to say that in both cases (your post/view and the imams justifying to target western civies because they elected their govs) i deeply disagree both from a moral and a technical point of view

targetting people because they elected their govs that became warmongering and engaged in hostilities (or perceived as such) is forgetting
* that there is never 100 % votes for these govs...not everybody is guilty (if guilt could be used as an excuse)
* that govs could and do change their policies when they are in charge....
* that this kind of collective punishment is a counter-intuitive and very bad approach of democracy we western try to promotes ("we elected somebody democratically, yet we are punished?? WTF...")

it is a very slippery way of thinking that leans toward the same things promoted by religious extremism ("kill them all, God will recognize who is worthy to save") that i though forgot in the dark ages

[grasulas]

On the same idea, i want to see other opinions was an execution or just a fail mission ?


The orders prepared by the Judea and Samaria Division for the IDF operation in Nablus last week by a Duvdevan commando unit stated clearly that the unit "was to carry out a raid and capture the wanted men." This wording of the order was passed on to the unit with the approval of GOC Central Command. It was received on Friday December 25, several hours before the raid on the homes of the three suspects in the murder of Rabbi Meir Hai the previous day near Shavei Shomron.

The orders did not include instructions to kill any of the three wanted men. The senior officers who spoke with Haaretz stressed that the soldiers were not given any verbal instructions that were different from those in writing.

An evaluation of the testimonies of family members and the IDF officers suggests that this was not an operation to assassinate. However, the three, Adnan Subuh, Raad Sarkaji and Ghassan Abu Shreikh, were killed by the soldiers, even though two of them were not armed, and it does not even appear that they were trying to escape - a fact that the IDF does not dispute.



Family members of the dead are alleging that the three were executed, and say that the Israeli claims that the three were involved in the killing of Rabbi Hai, 32 hours prior to the incident, are lies. The weapon that the security establishment in Israel says were used to kill the rabbi was found in the home of the third wanted man, Subuh. A ballistic examination proved it was the weapon.

But it is difficult not to wonder how two unarmed men, nearly 40 years old, sleeping in bed near their children and not behaving as wanted men, were killed without even having attempted to escape. It appears that, like in many other operations of this sort, the reality on the ground, and especially early intelligence on the three suspects, predetermined the result of the operation.

The Duvdevan commandos were told that the suspects might be armed and that they murdered Rabbi Hai.

Sources in the IDF argue that the information on the role of the three in the murder was "certain." In such case, any unnecessary movement by one of the "targets" may be life-threatening because it might mean they are going for a weapon. Indeed, an examination of the testimonies of the families and the IDF officers involved in the details of the operation suggests that the two wanted men hesitated in surrendering to the soldiers who came to arrest them, and did move suspiciously, which in turn led to the opening of lethal fire against them.

"We did not murder or assassinate," one of the IDF officers said. "In such instances the security of our forces precedes the security of the enemy."

The Abu Shreikh home

A huge poster of the elder brother, Nayef, was at the top of the stairs in the Abu Shreikh home. He was one of the leaders of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades at the start of the second intifada and was killed by the IDF. Another brother, Nihad, has been in an Israeli prison for the past three years.

The mother of Ghassan, Umm Nayef, says that during the night she heard sounds in the street, and at 2 A.M. she heard a blast. "They blew up the entrance to the inner yard and there was a lot of shouting and smoke. I shouted at them that I was old and told my family 'the Jews, the Jews.' Jihad, my son, went down first, and then his wife and their children. The soldiers beat them and asked them where Ghassan was."

"We all came down and Ghassan was last. But when he was coming downstairs, when he reached the last step, they shot and killed him. They did not say anything, they did not warn - they just shot him. They claimed that there is another person in the house, but we explained that there is no one. They searched the house, turned it over and found no weapons," she continued.

"Ghassan was never a wanted man and had never been arrested," his mother insisted. "He had no connection with the [Palestinian] factions. All his life he was a car electrician. Now his child has nightmares, wakes up shouting 'father, father.' What do you think he will do when he grows up?"

The IDF officers' version is that "the brother came down first. He came slowly, as he had been told to do, and turned before the soldier in order to show that he had nothing under his shirt. The rest of the family did the same except for the wanted man. After a few minutes delay, two stun grenades were thrown in, and the wanted man came out running down the stairs. The soldiers called out in Arabic for him to stop but he continued running. When he came within 2.5 meters away from one of the soldiers, there was no choice but to shoot him."

The run down the staircase may suggest that he was trying to escape through the yard, without realizing that the soldiers had surrounded it. "You must understand that once we surprised the wanted man, each minute that passes he could be surprising us," one of the officers explained.

The Sarkaji home

Raad Sarkaji opened a business selling refrigerators recently. He had been released less than a year ago from an Israeli prison after a seven-year sentence. His wife, Thani, is pregnant in her fifth month. She still wears the blood-soaked nightgown she wore that night. "These are his brains," she says, pointing to the bloodstained wall.

"A little before 3 A.M., I heard a huge blast. We were in bed and said that it must be the army. I heard them speaking Hebrew, and the shooting began before they said a thing. We got to the first door and Raad shouted in Hebrew 'wait, wait.' We went outside, he in front, and the minute he passed the door they shot and killed him. I was injured in the leg and fell backward, and he fell into my arms. I shouted 'Raad, Raad,' and then all his brain fell onto my hands," she recounts.

"Seven soldiers jumped in, and one of them walked up to him and shot him a few times. I shouted that I am pregnant, and to leave me. They began searching the house and told me to call the children, who were in their grandmother's house on the other side."

Walid, a 10-year-old, says that the officer "asked me in Arabic where is my father's weapon and I told him that he had none."

In this case too, the IDF version is different. "The wanted man came out of the room and realized that it was the army, and rushed back inside," an officer who was on the scene says. "The force commander called to his soldiers to make sure he did not have a weapon. Several minutes later he came out again, behind his wife. His hands were hidden. The soldiers called out to him repeatedly, in Arabic, to lift his hands, and he did not do so. There was little choice. The threat to the soldiers was just too great."

Source : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1139218.html

Personally i think this news site is not entirely fair to the IDF, second my opinion is that IDF is one of the most professional army i know thinking that they are incapable to apprehend 3 suspects alive when they have orders to do it so is like saying that you have an adict who dont know how to inject his dose.

[Snoshi]

^^ If its true then i applaud the Dudevan.. Its useless to arrest some murders to put them to a comfortable Israeli jail and later see them released as a part of some crappy deal where 1000000 Palestinians terrorists would be let for one Israeli corpse.

[RoyB]

this argument is specious to say the least
and was previously used to promote Fatwahs against civilians and justify the killing of women and children during the 9/11
...

You must have misunderstood me.
I'm in no way advocating the targeting of civilians just because of their government's actions.
I suggest you read my post again, all the way down.
I'll explain myself better later, because I'm out of time here, but feel free to address me.

[Mordoror]

You must have misunderstood me.
I'm in no way advocating the targeting of civilians just because of their government's actions.
I suggest you read my post again, all the way down.
I'll explain myself better later, because I'm out of time here, but feel free to address me.

well i don't see where i misunderstood you
i know that you are not advocating the targeting of civilians because of their gov
but as far as i understood you are advocating some kind of collective responsability by the people because they elected their gov
i'll wait your further explanation to see in a clearer way

[GB_FXST]

Israel's 10 worst errors of the decade

By Bradley Burston

Tags: Israel News, Gaza War




In the Mideast, dreams can only end badly. Not because messianic messages are, in and of themselves, bad dreams, but because of the nature of this place, the history which is as much imagination as it is record, as much sacred hallucination as it is shared memory. And because the dreamers of this place fail again and again because they are under the illusion that they are realists.

The decade just passing is one in which Middle East dreams came to die. It began, appropriately, with an Israeli leader who saw his place in history as dependent on imposing a peace plan on the entire Arab world, and a Palestinian icon who saw his place in history as dependent on saying no.

In no decade of the modern Middle East has the roll of failure been so democratic. The titans Arafat and Sharon fought their battle to the death, and both lost. Bill Clinton, Ehud Barak, Hassan Nasrallah, Ahmed Yassin, hilltop youth, Al Aqsa Martyrs, Yossi Beilin, the Yesha Council, even Jimmy Carter - all dreamed Icarus dreams and realized, only too late, that in the brilliant sun of the Holy Land, wings of feathers and wax reveal their true selves, which is to say, nothing more than feathers and wax.

It was a decade framed by a fundamentalist Palestinian belief in salvation through suicide and a fundamentalist Israeli belief in salvation through brutality.

The decade ends as it began, clueless, hopeless, exhausted. For having lived through this, we are, all of us, somehow much more than 10 years older, yet none the wiser. In fact, what passed for our wisdom had died with our dreams. Socialist collectivism, rabid Revisionism, Reagan-Thatcher neo-conservatism, none of them has anything to teach us.

The Palestinians are ideological orphans as well. Ten years ago, they were promised that the armed struggle would cause the Jewish state to collapse like a spider's web. Ten years ago, they might have had a state of their own. Now they can barely breathe.

For both peoples, the lessons of this decade are unbearable. No Greater Israel, no Peace Now, no Wholly Palestinian Palestine, no Two State solution. Perhaps this is truly what the messiah has decided to settle for: a situation in which every single inhabitant of the land is unhappy to the same extent.

... snip ...

10. The Siege of Gaza - The siege corrupts the moral values of all Israelis, who, whether or not they are aware of what is being done to the people of Gaza, bear ultimate responsibility for all acts being carried out in their name.


Source:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1138809.html

I would like to know understand how Burton holds Israel responsible for Palestinian intransigence and rejectionism?

I would like to know what alternative policy Burston would have israel follow that does not endanger the lives of Israeli citizens?

I would like to know why Burston castigates Israel for supposed collective punshment against Palestinians but then holds all Israeli accountable for the policies of the Government of Israel? If all Israelis are accountable for the policies of the Government of Israel, then are not all Palestinians eqaully accountable for the policies of their governing bodies, namely Hamas?

The only thing that I know with certainty is that Burston has entered this new decade with the same morally bankrupt views that he held the last decade.

[tanks_alot]

Well, since It's an Ordie thread, i knew it's going to have a certain flavor when i clicked, but i thought it's going to be some serious review (even if obviously leaning towards one political view) of Israel's actions in the last decade, from steps like the pullout from south Lebanon and up to operation Cast Lead.

Now, since the author decided to approach the situation of the Gaza "blockade" in a childish manner (while of course not offering any serious alternatives), then how about we touch the real Israeli mistake which led to it, the 2005 disengagment from the Gaza Strip?

[Player]

then how about we touch the real Israeli mistake which led to it, the 2005 disengagment from the Gaza Strip?

Or even more correctly the occupation since 1967 that led to such consequences in the first place?

No illegal settlements - no disengagement; no occupation - no seed for hatred.

[GiladS]

Or even more correctly the occupation since 1967 that led to such consequences in the first place?

No illegal settlements - no disengagement; no occupation - no seed for hatred.


As if Fedayeen weren't conducting cross border attacks from the Gaza Strip long before 1967 :roll:

[tanks_alot]

Or even more correctly the occupation since 1967 that led to such consequences in the first place?

No illegal settlements - no disengagement; no occupation - no seed for hatred.

Thread title is Israeli mistakes in the last decade, or we could go all the way down to not creating Israel in Uganda instead. p-)

[RoyB]

Or even more correctly the occupation since 1967 that led to such consequences in the first place?

No illegal settlements - no disengagement; no occupation - no seed for hatred.
No Israel - no hatred.
You're way over simplifying things.

[Kaplanr]

Or even more correctly the occupation since 1967 that led to such consequences in the first place?

No illegal settlements - no disengagement; no occupation - no seed for hatred.

Then you'd be talking about a different thread altogether - Egypt's worst errors of the 20th Century.
- Closing the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping.

That action, paired with the expulsion of UNEF leads to a straight line of action, Israeli reaction and the ultimate occupation of Gaza and Sinai.

[deagle]

why are all the numbers of the same thing ? is it a typo ?

[Hollis]

why are all the numbers of the same thing ? is it a typo ?


He was using the binary 10 thingie.

There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary and those who do not.

[Ordie]

What's your opinion, Ordie? I like that you post these things, it stirs debate, but would like to hear where you stand.

Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have pretty much written off the Palestinian cause. Economic liberalization and civil society are starting to emerge in these countries with a rising middle class. They are not going to risk war and lose everything.

In hindsight, Israel shouldn't never kept the West Bank and Gaza after 1967.
If you break it, you own it.

The fact of the matter its that Israel has the sole ownership of the Palestinian issue.

And now that Israel has the military leverage, what is next?

[gilgoul]

Or even more correctly the occupation since 1967 that led to such consequences in the first place?

No illegal settlements - no disengagement; no occupation - no seed for hatred.

What happened to you dude?
You happen to screw some Beersheva U dudette with huge **** who has been brainwashing you? Or did you find your new self with the ISM?
Sometimes I wonder why you ever bother to resume the entire history of this country to it's last 42 years.

[GB_FXST]

What happened to you dude?
You happen to screw some Beersheva U dudette with huge **** who has been brainwashing you? Or did you find your new self with the ISM?
Sometimes I wonder why you ever bother to resume the entire history of this country to it's last 42 years.

That is not only funny, but absoluetly plausible ... :)

[Clockwinder]

The Palestinians are ideological orphans as well. Ten years ago, they were promised that the armed struggle would cause the Jewish state to collapse like a spider's web. Ten years ago, they might have had a state of their own. Now they can barely breathe.
Seems to me the "Siege of Gaza" is working just fine - in the author's own words.

[Mavet]

I am thoroughly proud that an American who can't get his hand off both China and Israel, kind of praising China for kind of resembles Israel. And Israel is seen as a 'cool' country in China, and we are willing to write of 1/2 of US debts to be just like them. :)

[Arnie100]

Can we see a "terrorists' 10 worst errors of the decade" thread??

[Hoodless]

The Palestinians are ideological orphans as well. Ten years ago, they were promised that the armed struggle would cause the Jewish state to collapse like a spider's web. Ten years ago, they might have had a state of their own. Now they can barely breathe.

so its our fault they broke their promise?

[Ordie]

so its our fault they broke their promise?

Israel owns the PA by default.
One could say that the PA is a dependency of Israel.
Therefore it has responsibility.

[dudski]

On the same idea, i want to see other opinions was an execution or just a fail mission ?



Source : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1139218.html

Personally i think this news site is not entirely fair to the IDF, second my opinion is that IDF is one of the most professional army i know thinking that they are incapable to apprehend 3 suspects alive when they have orders to do it so is like saying that you have an adict who dont know how to inject his dose.
:roll:
WOW, you totally went against your own words right there the SAME professionalism that you speak of implies that they knew what the hell they were doing and did what trained professionals do in that specific situation.

[Fat Lazy American]

Israel owns the PA by default.
One could say that the PA is a dependency of Israel.
Therefore it has responsibility.

In other words, no matter what happens, it's Israel's fault.

So why bother listening to anyting you say?

[GB_FXST]

Israel owns the PA by default.
One could say that the PA is a dependency of Israel.
Therefore it has responsibility.

Israel owns the PA??? The PA is dependent on Israel??? Those comments require an explanation.

The notion that Israel is responsible for the political decisions made by the PA also requires explanation.

The PA is an internationally recognized, independent political entity. The idea that Palestinians are absolved of responsibility for their actions because Israel is at fault for all is nonsensical and morally bankrupt. Even worse, that sort of thinking will only prolong the conflict.

[Sidhardha]

Israel owns PA just as a sick "owns" a hemorrhoids.

While PA is indeed considered a separate state, its not that anyone really sees it ever without a relation to Israel. Most of solutions include it either being one or two state solutions with Israel as the both countries put their rights on same territory where they historical lived and where their relatives still live.

So the situation is technically more similar to Russia-Chechnya, Georgia-South Ossetia.

While its technically not separatist substance of Israeli state, most of the world wouldn't oppose much if you occupy it (you already do anyway, and theres no end to territorial dispute too) and call it your territory - as long as you can settle peaceful existence there after that.

As much Russia was blamed for Chechnya, the situation there is already comparably settled and forgotten. The problem is that, Israel couldn't solve the problem with PA for a very long time, and the direct occupation wouldn't bring peace because theres already too much hate created and likely increase of attacks on Israeli territory - so instead PA now acts like kind of a big ghetto.

And you cant also tell as example "Bah, we dont need you. Go become part of Egypt and leave us alone!" because PA considers its large part of territory that currently belongs to Israel, and opposite - none side would as example give up Jerusalem.

At one thing that i agree - Siege of Gaza was a failure, because instead there should have been occupation of whole Palestina. The casualties from both sides would be probably greater (though not fact, because with PA military itself Israel could dead quickly and controlling the territory its easyer to prevent insurgency) and citizens of Israeli itself would be at higher danger due to terracts e.t.c - but by now the situation probably would be settled.

[Ordie]

Israel[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] owns the PA??? The PA is dependent on Israel??? Those comments require an explanation.

The West Bank and Gaza are dependent on Israelis goods and services, electricity, fuel, jobs, income, tourist, food, water, medicine, currency, etc....

Most importantly the West Bank and Gaza is dependent upon Israeli checkpoints for the movement of goods and people to get through. Especially if Palestinian towns are cut off from each other by settlements, walls, roads and checkpoints.

Therefore Israel is responsible for the well being of the folks within the PA.

Many of you do not wish for a two state solution. If that is the case, then you should entertain the idea of a single democratic state with one person, one vote.

If not, in order to maintain its Jewish identity, Israel should bend over backwards to make the Palestinian State successful reality at all costs.

[OrangeWolf]

If not, in order to maintain its Jewish identity, Israel should bend over backwards to make the Palestinian State successful reality at all costs.

I sure hope there will be a Palestinian leadership who is actually remotely comitted to the idea of living besides Israel.

[NimDod]

Most importantly the West Bank and Gaza is dependent upon Israeli checkpoints for the movement of goods and people to get through. Especially if Palestinian towns are cut off from each other by settlements, walls, roads and checkpoints.

Therefore Israel is responsible for the well being of the folks within the PA.


How is Israel responsible for the well being of the folks within the Gaza strip?
there isnt a single checkpoint, settlement, wall or a roadblock there, and they even have a boarder with Egypt.

as if you give a flying crap about the 'folks within the Gaza strip'...

[GB_FXST]

The West Bank and Gaza are dependent on Israelis goods and services, electricity, fuel, jobs, income, tourist, food, water, medicine, currency, etc....

Most importantly the West Bank and Gaza is dependent upon Israeli checkpoints for the movement of goods and people to get through. Especially if Palestinian towns are cut off from each other by settlements, walls, roads and checkpoints.

Therefore Israel is responsible for the well being of the folks within the PA.

... snip ...



I'll agree the PA in the WB is connected to Israel in the ways you mentioned. However, such a connection does not confer upon Israel a responsibility for either the "well-being" of Palestinians or the political actions of the PA.

The question of gas masks for Palestinians residing in areas governed by the PA is illustrative. Both the GOI and the Supreme Court of Israel hold the PA responsible for the safety of Palestinians residing in areas governed by the PA.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2776357.stm





... snip ...

Many of you do not wish for a two state solution. If that is the case, then you should entertain the idea of a single democratic state with one person, one vote.

If not, in order to maintain its Jewish identity, Israel should bend over backwards to make the Palestinian State successful reality at all costs.

I'll agree that a two-state solution is the best long term solution for all.

However, the Palestinians have a long history of rejecting compromises geared toward a two state system.

As long as they retain the dream of destroying Israel and replacing it with a Judenrein state of Palestine, the status quo is just fine.

[Victor1]

Ordie's clearly got a beef with Israel, I'm thinking he's an anti-semite.

[Ordie]

Ordie's clearly got a beef with Israel, I'm thinking he's an anti-semite.

How can I be anti-semitic if Jesus Christ was Jewish?

[RoyB]

How can I be anti-semitic if Jesus Christ was Jewish?
No one here really thinks you're an anti-Semite, relax.

[Yehuda]

No one here really thinks you're an anti-Semite, relax.

you are wrong with the nobody
and jesus,is long gone,im talking about the present times,in nazi germany,many nazis,where praying to jesus in their spare time,and killing jews as a profession

[tanks_alot]

Did dracon49 multiply or something? what's up lately with the influx of over nationalistic psychopaths?

[Yehuda]

Did dracon49 multiply or something? what's up lately with the influx of over nationalistic psychopaths?

what's the over nationalistic of psycopatyic in my post??

sorry,but saying that you like Jesus and for that you are not an antisemitic,its plain stupid

the Spanish inquisition also loved Jesus

btw ,you should stop insulting me,i never insulted you

[Victor1]

How can I be anti-semitic if Jesus Christ was Jewish?

You might wanna let the spanish inquistion in on that little detail.

[Ordie]

You might wanna let the spanish inquistion in on that little detail.

You're right.

But as a Christian (Roman Catholic), I recognize in much of what we believe came from Judaism.

Ironically it was the Muslim Ottomans that provided refuge and settlements for the Spanish Jewish refugees throughout its Empire, including Sarajevo, Salonica and Jerusalem.

One could argue that the Spanish Jews were the first of the Diaspora to return to the Holy Land.

I understand there are Ladino (Spanish Speaking) communities within Turkey today.

[Hollis]

what's the over nationalistic of psycopatyic in my post??




Maybe take Tanks a lot hint and simmer down.


Also to other members, be careful of the implied insults or playing certain cards,

Civility is expected.

[500]

Egypt builds wall with Gaza:

http://af.*******.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE5BU06120091231

http://electronicintifada.net/artman2/uploads/2/DSC_0325.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8354/334ke.jpg

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3535/344w.jpg

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5015/345r.jpg

http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/gaza_barrier.gif

[Yehuda]

Maybe take Tanks a lot hint and simmer down.


Also to other members, be careful of the implied insults or playing certain cards,

Civility is expected.


sorry,i m checking my post,and i don't see anything inflamatory or racist in them,on the other hand,calling somebody crazy,it is,in fact,an insult

[Yehuda]

the rigth wall is the Israeli and the left one Egyptian?????

[BlackWarder]

For anyone who care to take a look, here is a piece about Gaza legal status:
Is Gaza Occupied? (http://www.biu.ac.il/Besa/MSPS83.pdf)

Warder

[NimDod]

the rigth wall is the Israeli and the left one Egyptian?????

Both are Egyptian.

[Yehuda]

ahh,thanls
i though so,because the truck passing in the middle,looks like an israeli army international harvester

[Karaahmetoglu]

I understand there are Ladino (Spanish Speaking) communities within Turkey today.

When my father did his National Service, he did it with a bunch of Separdic Jews. My father was shoked it just so happened that such a small community just happened to be very large group of them with him.

[gilgoul]

When my father did his National Service, he did it with a bunch of Separdic Jews. My father was shoked it just so happened that such a small community just happened to be very large group of them with him.
I once met a good man who spent a while chasing PKK in the mountains
He is a jew from Istanbul
And checking his options out

[LineDoggie]

This is getting to be like the Chinabots Ordie. I'm beginning to think you are Obssessed.

[Lokos]

IMO, Israel's worst mistake of the decade was the campaign against Hizbullah in Lebanon, back in 2006. Without taking into account actual and perceived justifications for the war (in fact, steering well clear of them), the conduct thereof was not advantageous to Israeli interests. Firstly, it was indecisive. Hizbullah was neither defeated, nor made to look impotent. Do not put too much stock into how much Hizbullah lost materially. This was a relatively low-key conflict, in that sense, despite its high intensity. When properly scaled, Israel's losses were the more costly (obviously, not in an absolute sense). Which brings us to the second point. It was just that; a costly maneuver. In terms of lives lost and materiel, yes, but more-so as a vast and relatively fruitless expenditure of political and moral capital. Most of the Lebanese victims were (or allegedly were) civilians, and this did no favors for the Israeli case, irrespective of how much care they took in selecting and engaging targets. Antipathy was generated, whereas the kidnapping of the soldiers that gave rise to the conflict was a sympathy generating incident.

Thirdly, regional power perceptions were inevitably altered. The IDF, despite its excellent equipment, training and leadership did not conduct its campaign on its own terms. It did not set clear goals for the campaign, nor did it apportion requisite means to meet these vague KPIs. Hizbullah lost more men, assuredly. Maybe twice as many. Maybe four times as many. But it was vindicated as an organization by this conflict. Certainly, its political clout in Lebanon is on the ascent. This was not an Israeli objective. And that is perhaps the best rebuttal for an argument stating that Israel accomplished its punitive mission. Hizbullah was not cowed by the war. Certainly, material losses might force a degree of restraint upon that organization for a time - but this baptism of fire has shown their mettle.

When the cost-benefit calculation is done thoroughly, I believe that Israel did not gain from the 2006 Lebanon War.

Cast Lead, at least, was a highly decisive operation. The political/moral capital expended there can be justified more successfully.

All IMHO, and admittedly simplified.

L.

[gilgoul]

IMO, Israel's worst mistake of the decade was the campaign against Hizbullah in Lebanon, back in 2006. Without taking into account actual and perceived justifications for the war (in fact, steering well clear of them), the conduct thereof was not advantageous to Israeli interests. Firstly, it was indecisive. Hizbullah was neither defeated, nor made to look impotent. Do not put too much stock into how much Hizbullah lost materially. This was a relatively low-key conflict, in that sense, despite its high intensity. When properly scaled, Israel's losses were the more costly (obviously, not in an absolute sense). Which brings us to the second point. It was just that; a costly maneuver. In terms of lives lost and materiel, yes, but more-so as a vast and relatively fruitless expenditure of political and moral capital. Most of the Lebanese victims were (or allegedly were) civilians, and this did no favors for the Israeli case, irrespective of how much care they took in selecting and engaging targets. Antipathy was generated, whereas the kidnapping of the soldiers that gave rise to the conflict was a sympathy generating incident.

Thirdly, regional power perceptions were inevitably altered. The IDF, despite its excellent equipment, training and leadership did not conduct its campaign on its own terms. It did not set clear goals for the campaign, nor did it apportion requisite means to meet these vague KPIs. Hizbullah lost more men, assuredly. Maybe twice as many. Maybe four times as many. But it was vindicated as an organization by this conflict. Certainly, its political clout in Lebanon is on the ascent. This was not an Israeli objective. And that is perhaps the best rebuttal for an argument stating that Israel accomplished its punitive mission. Hizbullah was not cowed by the war. Certainly, material losses might force a degree of restraint upon that organization for a time - but this baptism of fire has shown their mettle.

When the cost-benefit calculation is done thoroughly, I believe that Israel did not gain from the 2006 Lebanon War.

Cast Lead, at least, was a highly decisive operation. The political/moral capital expended there can be justified more successfully.

All IMHO, and admittedly simplified.

L.

I am on line with you.
This is what happens when you let politicians enter the war room, change their mind in the middle, and change objectives three times in 3 weeks.
The army was pathetic too at some levels.
But the one who nailed the coffin was the Biatch Livni who got us gang raped by 1701.
And told us it was the best for us.

I start to understand more and more a good friend of mine, who simply refuses to go on reserves as long as Ehud Barak is not investigated for his role in the calamitous withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000.

[NimDod]

Some might say that Israel's biggest mistake was to leave they Buffer Zone in Lebanon back in 2000 - which catalyzed the second Intifada a few months later and allowed the Hezbullah to build up it's strength and become what it is today.
And even though I supported it back then, the 2006 disengagement from Gaza was pretty much a repetition of that mistake - which allowed the Hamas to take power in the Gaza Strip and become like a second Hezbullah - a terrorist organizations that takes over a country.

[GB_FXST]

Some might say that Israel's biggest mistake was to leave they Buffer Zone in Lebanon back in 2000 - which catalyzed the second Intifada a few months later and allowed the Hezbullah to build up it's strength and become what it is today.
And even though I supported it back then, the 2006 disengagement from Gaza was pretty much a repetition of that mistake - which allowed the Hamas to take power in the Gaza Strip and become like a second Hezbullah - a terrorist organizations that takes over a country.

Yeah; with the benefit of hindsight, the lesson learned is that unilateral withdrawal in the absence of a strong state power creates instability. I suspect that had Israel stayed in Gaza and S. Lebanon the number of casualties across the board would have been less.