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Ordie
01-04-2010, 03:47 AM
I wouldn't go as far as comparing it with Aparthied, but there are civil rights issues in regards to equal access.


Akiva Eldar / Is there really a difference between Israel and apartheid South Africa?

By Akiva Eldar

Tags: South Africa, Israel News




The day after the murder of the settler Meir Hai about 10 days ago, Major General (res.) Amos Gilad was asked to comment on the claim by settlers that the attack was able to take place because roadblocks had been lifted on West Bank roads. The security-political coordinator at the Defense Ministry told his radio interviewer that the policy of thinning out internal roadblocks has greatly contributed to the West Bank's impressive economic growth. According to Gilad, who until recently was coordinator of activities in the territories, the improvement of the Palestinians' economic lot has contributed substantially to Israelis' security.

An army man, who is not suspected of belonging to a human rights organization, thus upsets the simplistic and most accepted formula: restrictions on Arabs means more security for Jews. The Supreme Court ruling last week to lift the ban on Palestinians using Route 443 shows that members of the judiciary also no longer stand at attention when they hear the magic word security. Nonetheless, the judiciary members, like politicians and the media, still find it hard to let go of their paralyzing dependency on this term. This is intentional: If discrimination is not mandated by security considerations stemming from the threat of Palestinian terrorism, how can we diagnose this regime as segregationist? If it is not diagnosed as such, there is no need to treat it.

The Association for Civil Rights in Israel, which appealed against the ban on Route 443, dared suggest the word apartheid and was reprimanded for it. In her ruling, Supreme Court President Dorit Beinisch wrote that "the great difference between the security means adopted by the State of Israel for defense against terrorist attacks and the unacceptable practices of the policy of apartheid requires that any comparison or use of this grave term be avoided." A similar argument was voiced during the days of Israel's military administration over its Arab citizens, which was lifted in 1966, and which is today considered a dark period in the country's history.
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Beinisch herself is a co-author of about a dozen rulings that exposed the malicious use of the segregation regime in an effort to take over Palestinian land. In some cases, most notably one concerning the separation fence near Bil'in, she wrote that the invasive route set by the army was inferior from a security point of view to the route proposed by experts at the Council for Peace and Security. In another case the state admitted that the person in charge of planning the fence did not inform government lawyers that the route had been adjusted to the blueprint for expanding the settlement of Tzofin. Were it not for human rights organizations and conscientious lawyers, who would prevent shortsighted politicians from annexing more and more territory "for security against terrorism"? asked Beinisch.

One of the myths among whites in South Africa was that "blacks want to throw us into the sea." Many of apartheid's practices were formally based on security, mostly those involving restrictions on movement. Thus, for example, at a fairly early stage, black citizens needed permits to move around the country. During the final years of apartheid, when the blacks' struggle intensified as did terrorism, its practices became more severe.

To avoid the rude word apartheid, Beinisch pulled out the well-known argument that apartheid is "a policy of segregation and discrimination based on race and ethnicity, which is based on a series of discriminatory practices designed to achieve the superiority of a certain race and oppress those of other races." Indeed, systematic segregation (apartheid) and discrimination in South Africa were meant to preserve the supremacy of one race over others.

In Israel, on the other hand, institutional discrimination is meant to preserve the supremacy of a group of Jewish settlers over Palestinian Arabs. As far as discriminatory practices are concerned, it's hard to find differences between white rule in South Africa and Israeli rule in the territories; for example, separate areas and separate laws for Jews and Palestinians.

Last Wednesday, Israeli policemen blocked the main road linking Nablus and Tul Karm. Dozens of taxis with Palestinian workers on their way home from another day on the job in the settlements were told to park on the side of the road. Cars with yellow license plates passed by. There was no roadblock for security inspections; it was just the memorial ceremony for Rabbi Meir Hai. Just as long as they do not say that there is apartheid.

Source:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1139724.html

Rudolph
01-04-2010, 05:10 AM
What's gonna happen now is some South Africans will defend apartheid, and its reality-based security concerns. That will be a sub-thread in itself, and will end with Cold War politics. Then some Israelis will level their disgust at apartheid South Africa. Then some SAricans will prove how co-dependend the two countries were during apartheid, and then Israelis will say they were just being practical, yadayadayada.... so, close thread, thanks.

Rudolph
01-04-2010, 06:14 AM
^The blind faith towards Israel by Americans is very odd though... from an outsider's view. It has always intrigued me how the Israelis managed to convince the Americans of their POV. I know Israel and apartheid SA also had meetings on how to do proper PR despite the sometimes harsh realities, but Israel far surpassed anything SA ever accomplished in that regard.

dracon49
01-04-2010, 06:18 AM
Akiva Eldar..the most radical left wing journalist...(maybe execpt Gideon Levy).

limbic
01-04-2010, 06:19 AM
Rather than waste time on answering this, a quick Google reveals adequate responses:

http://www.zionismontheweb.org/israeli_apartheid/ <-- multiple articles listed.

A decent overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy

OrangeWolf
01-04-2010, 07:37 AM
^He post articles taken from Israel press.

Just because the author comes from Israel and speaks about Israel doesn't mean he isn't wrong. Like any democratic modern society Israel has radicals on all sides who will tell their ideas. Maybe it's a bad joke but my dad always told me before I went to travel in Israel that for every 2 Jews there are at least 3 opinions :)


^The blind faith towards Israel by Americans is very odd though... from an outsider's view. It has always intrigued me how the Israelis managed to convince the Americans of their POV. I know Israel and apartheid SA also had meetings on how to do proper PR despite the sometimes harsh realities, but Israel far surpassed anything SA ever accomplished in that regard.

Well, both South Africa and Israel were very interesting locations for the Cold War era. Some people in the West have felt a moral obligation towards Israel to make sure Israel continues to exist, though I am not sure what that kind of feeling meant in actual deeds. Frankly less Evangelical Christians are interested in South Africa than Israel, so logically they would be more interested in helping Israel out. I mean, I have seen plenty of Christian charity work for Israel coming from the Netherlands. But I don't recall for such special support for South Africa, well my grandpa spend his holidays there back in those days :)

I have read a book or two about South Africa, so I am not an expert, but I don't how existential the threats on South Africa were back then. No Egypt-like country strong enough to make a full military push into South Africa. I'm not sure if that comparison works because there were of course terrorist infiltrations, much like there were in Israel.

I guess I am right to say security wise Israel and South Africa had a lot in common but their domestic policies were not quite the same (no apartheid in Israel)? I think it's good they worked together and the who controversy sounds a bit lame to me, I'm pretty sure the majority of African countries in the cold war had a worse human rights record than South Africa had.

And if people do believe Israel is an apartheid state at this point, I hope they don't think it's worth changing it into a Zimbabwe.

Octavariable
01-04-2010, 09:42 AM
Is there a difference between Israel & apartheid South Africa?

Yes


/thread

AZZenny
01-04-2010, 10:16 AM
I was at a big CT conference in Israel in 2008. A couple Black South Africans stood up, not especially relevant to the topic, and started complaining that Israel was nothing like real apartheid, they'd spent enough time in Israel to know that, and were sort of 1) insulted that people were minimizing how bad SA apartheid had really been, and 2) falsely accusing democratic Israel of fitting that mold when it took necessary security measures. They kept demanding why didn't Israelis make people understand this wasn't true?
The Israelis just shrugged and said nobody listens to what Israel says about it, and maybe it would help if more South Africans like themselves spoke out.

budgie
01-04-2010, 10:16 AM
While Israel's treatment of Palestinians is far from exemplary, it is far from Apartheid. I predict a short life for this thread when He-who-slaps-down-those-who-criticize-Israel returns from holiday.

Hollis
01-04-2010, 10:20 AM
This is from Haaretz a Isreali news service. Now can we find a similar article critical the PA government published in the PA area? Hell no.

If anything this also show the freedom that is in Israel. As with all Western Countries the media is free to rip the leaders and government a new AH for what ever reason.

In the US, a media can come out and claim POTUS is the messiah or POTUS is the next despotic dictator etc. Wild claims and accusations happen. We even have tabloids in the West that "make things" up as they go. Is POTUS really gay?


Again where are the articles publish in the PA areas that are critical? Maybe ask the reporters in the PA control areas that have had their bones broken or shot or ?? for saying something critical.


Haaratz will publish more tomorrow, the writer will live a normal life, collect a pay check which is much different than that reporters in the PA areas.

Ozzy[NO]
01-04-2010, 10:20 AM
If Israel is to be considered an apartheid-regime, what would be the fitting description of some of the Arab neighbours? Hell on Earth?

seraosha
01-04-2010, 10:24 AM
"Apartheid" is a trigger word, used to elicit an emotional response, not actual debate on Israeli policies.

kamaz
01-04-2010, 10:33 AM
"Apartheid" is a trigger word, used to elicit an emotional response, not actual debate on Israeli policies.

obviously.

Elemental666
01-04-2010, 10:52 AM
I gave up on this a long time ago. I say we wall off that whole part of the ME and let them kill themselves off any way they choose. It's their choice.

The world doesn't need them in my opinion.

Says the representative of the most peaceful nation on earth.

http://www.youtube.com/v/WIf7_ZDGSHQ

USMCRTop
01-04-2010, 08:11 PM
"Apartheid" is a trigger word, used to elicit an emotional response, not actual debate on Israeli policies.

times a million--just like Zionism is racism

Isaac Kasabian
01-04-2010, 08:14 PM
If you Ordie had any decency you wouldn't post this crap about apartheid South Africa.

As for Akiva Eldar, and I really don't care if he is left or not, one thing for sure I can say he's ridiculously stupid, insulting the people of South Africa who went through such hardship.
Black South Africans were treated and considered objects who were segregated for being different.


In Gazastan of Judea and Samaria if a wall exist or a barrier/checkpoint or any suspicion is because of the centuries of Arab barbarity and terrorism committed.

Any person who comes with same analogy should feel ashamed for insulting the victims of apartheid and terrorism.

Ordie
01-04-2010, 08:17 PM
If you Ordie had any decency you wouldn't post this crap about apartheid South Africa.

Don't blame the messenger. The article is written by an Israeli for an Israeli publication.

If you bother reading the first post, I didn't agree with the anology.

Snoshi
01-04-2010, 08:20 PM
I for one am not bothered by Ordie posting these articles. The only problem is that Ordie does not partcipate in the topic he just created...

Yehuda
01-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Don't blame the messenger. The article is written by an Israeli for an Israeli publication.

If you bother reading the first post, I didn't agree with the anology.

if you don't agree,why do you post it?

HellToupee
01-04-2010, 09:11 PM
probably to inspire discussion

digrar
01-04-2010, 10:11 PM
If you've just received an infraction and had your post deleted, you've offered nothing to the thread. Contribute, or don't, but don't ****e up a thread if you have nothing to offer.

BorisA
01-04-2010, 10:29 PM
centuries of Arab barbarity and terrorism committed.

why not millennia :roll:

Rudolph
01-05-2010, 01:41 AM
If you Ordie had any decency you wouldn't post this crap about apartheid South Africa.

As for Akiva Eldar, and I really don't care if he is left or not, one thing for sure I can say he's ridiculously stupid, insulting the people of South Africa who went through such hardship.
Black South Africans were treated and considered objects who were segregated for being different.

I think the fact that black South Africans are 15 years after apartheid poorer proves that simple-minded racism theory wrong. Apartheid was about class and two dominant cultures 1000's of years apart technologically.

GB_FXST
01-05-2010, 09:25 AM
Eldar is simply and plainly wrong in his assertion.

He employs a simplistic world view that posits Israelis as villians and Palestinians as victims, and thereby completely whitewashes Palestinian responsibility for their current predicament.

BMUS
01-05-2010, 09:33 AM
Speaking of Apartheid, how's the Jews doing in Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Ethiopia, Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Turkey and, oh, the Palestinian authorities' area?

Candy dandy I assume?

muck
01-05-2010, 09:36 AM
Yes

/threadx2

Yes.

I might add that the restrictions Israel has imposed upon Palestine were a reaction to terrorism and not vice versa.

/thread

BorisA
01-05-2010, 03:19 PM
Speaking of Apartheid, how's the Jews doing in ... Turkey

Yeah, how are they doing in Turkey when they go there to make holidays, business or excersizes? Nice that you know so much about their history in Turkey. :bash:

BMUS
01-05-2010, 03:31 PM
Yeah, how are they doing in Turkey when they go there to make holidays, business or excersizes? Nice that you know so much about their history in Turkey. :bash:
Yeah. Those two bombings of synagogues 7 years ago really showed how tolerant some of you Turks really are... And your taste in literature. Mein Kempf being a best-seller and all. :roll:

Yehuda
01-05-2010, 03:53 PM
well,to be fair,in turkey,they are not too bad,and in morrocco,also,but waith until the current kingdom in morroco falls,and the islamist in turkey could take power,without the threat of the army,and we wil lhave a houston we have a problem situation

for the rest,almost judenrein,empty of jews

BorisA
01-05-2010, 04:00 PM
Yeah. Those two bombings of synagogues 7 years ago really showed how tolerant some of you Turks really are... And your taste in literature. Mein Kempf being a best-seller and all. :roll:


At the attacks the overwhelming majority of victims were muslim Turks. And next to the synagogues also other places were targeted. The attacs were condemd by the grand majority of the Turkish population. Also till this attacks the security situation was relatively good for the Turkish Jews (and i believe its still is).
If it would not have been the case why Israelis came and still come to Turkey? "Apartheid activity holidays" are en vogue there or what?


Maybe you wish to write to the Turkish Community in Israel and ask them what they think that you culo put Turkey in the same league like the arab states and Iran. http://www.arkadash.org/99510/עעע


PS its "Mein Kampf", and good to know that you are such an expert on the bestseller rankings in Turkey.

Yehuda
01-05-2010, 04:08 PM
At the attacks the overwhelming majority of victims were muslim Turks. And next to the synagogues also other places were targeted. The attacs were condemd by the grand majority of the Turkish population. Also till this attacks the security situation was relatively good for the Turkish Jews (and i believe its still is).
If it would not have been the case why Israelis came and still come to Turkey? "Apartheid activity holidays" are en vogue there or what?


Maybe you wish to write to the Turkish Community in Israel and ask them what they think that you culo put Turkey in the same league like the arab states and Iran. http://www.arkadash.org/99510/עעע (http://www.arkadash.org/99510/%D7%A2%D7%A2%D7%A2)


PS its "Mein Kampf", and good to know that you are such an expert on the bestseller rankings in Turkey.

the majority of the victims where muslim and many of the buildings affected where non jewish,but the OBJECTIVE of the attack,where the jews,the rest,got hit by chance

BorisA
01-05-2010, 04:17 PM
the majority of the victims where muslim and many of the buildings affected where non jewish,but the OBJECTIVE of the attack,where the jews,the rest,got hit by chance


HSBC and the British Consulate have nothing to do with Israel or the Jewish Relgion. The "Objectives"/targets were, obviously, Turkish Jews, "western"-foreigners and the secular Turkish Republic/Society.
And the attack on the Synagogues was not only against the Jews, but against the whole Turkish society (eventough some retards won't support that) since they (the Turkish Jews) are also bound to my state and its folk.