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2RHPZ
07-17-2004, 05:59 PM
Kosovo Mig Kills

From the Cockpit (unabridged)

Editor's note: This account was snagged off the internet. The kills happened and the account is simply too accurate not to be just what it seems - a fighter pilot so stoked that he has got to tell his buddies. It contains a number of technical references. Most the reader can surmise, so they've been left as is so as not to destroy the telling of a might fine sea story (even if it is by a scarf-wearing zoomie). Be advised: Salty language.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monday, June 07, 1999 8:32 AM
As told by "Claw" Hwang - MiG killer:

Well, I'm finally back in England after being TDY since the end of January, at least for two weeks anyway. Got sent direct to Cervia AB, Italy, from Operation Northern Watch in Turkey after being at the Incirlik AB for over 7 weeks ("Luv the 'Lik" no 'mo ! ). My house and yard is a total mess! There doesn't seem to be an end in sight in the Kosovo situation, but the war is over for me for a while. Some of you probably already heard throught the grapevine about what happened to "Boomer" Mcmurry and I. Here's the proverbial "Rest of the Story"...

Boomer and I were tasked as Bosnia-Herzgovinia DCA on 26 Mar, vul time from 1500Z to 1900Z. We were established on CAP over Tuzla for about an hour after initial refueling. At 1602Z, while eastbound approaching the Bosnia/Yugoslavia border, I got a radar contact 37 nm to the east, 6k', beaming south at over 600kts. Of course AWACS had no clue and did not have any inkling of someone was flying on the other side of border (although he was real good at calling out every single friendly WEST of us!).

I called out the contact and Boomer was locked same. Without an ID and not tactically sound to cross the border at the time, I elected to pump our formation in a right hand turn through south and called "PU**** UP, BURNER, TAPES ON!" (we were initially flying .85M, 28K') and rolled out heading west/southwest. At that time I didn't think anything much would happen. I figured the contact would probably continue south or turn east and remain well on the east side of the border. Nevertheless, I called the flight lead of the south CAP over Sarajevo and gave him a craniums up on the posit of contact, altitude, and the heading. This entire time AWACS still had no radar contact, even after I called it out on the radio.

Man, running away with the contact at our six o'clock with AWACS not having any clue was NOT comfortable! Boomer and I continued west for a total of 60 sec (about 10 nm) before I directed the formation to turn back hot, again turning through south in an attempt to get some cut-off. Boomer was on the northside of the formation(left side as we rolled out heading east). We both got contact 070 degrees for 37 nm, 23k', target now heading west (hot towards us). AWACS finally woke up and starting seeing the same thing. Now, I'm starting to think, "@#%$ IS GONNA HAPPEN" (evident with the increase of about two octaves in my voice!).

Checked AAI for friendly squawk: nobody home! We still needed to get clearance from AWACS to engage, so I requested (codeword) and got no reply from the controller (pretty sure he had no 'freakin clue what that codeword meant!). About this time both Boomer and I got good ID on the target in our own cockpit and with threat hot towards us inside 30 nm decided to blow off the AWACS/clearance to engage restriction and go for it!

Target was now inside 30 nm and I directed Boomer to target the single group. I broke lock and went back to search in 40 nm scope and 120 sweep. The target check turn towards northwest (about 14L aspect) and descend to high teens. Boomer and I checked about 30 deg left to northeast for cutoff. This check turn slung me aft in the formation so I stroke it up to full AB to get more line abreast. I called "COMBAT 1, ARM HOT" and saw Boomer's wing tanks come off with bright flames under the wing. Pretty impressive!

I was well over the Mach when I punched my tanks off and the jet jumped up abruptly (you can see it in the HUD). Took a quick look back to check and see if my stabs were still intact... I rolled my elevation coverage looking from about 5K' to 21K' and no kidding stay in search for at least one full frame (believe me, I wanted to go back to single target track SO DAMN BAD !!!)

Ed note: They have an system identification that they've got at least one MiG. Claw had the discipline to break lock and search.

AWACS started calling out two contacts, lead trail. Sure enough, I was starting to see the breakout on my scope! At about 20nm, Boomer called "FOX 3, 18K' !". I saw the cons/smoke came from his jet and thought: SONOFABITCH!!!! I gotta get me some!!! I commanded mini-raster on the leader and as soon as the radar lock (about 17nm), immediately thumb forward to HDTWS. My first shot came off inside 16 nm from the leader. When I pressed the pickle button, it seemed like an ETERNITY before the missile actually launched, but when it did...WOW!!!! I have never shot an AMRAAM or AIM-7 before at WSEP (and I don't think I have a chance in hell of shooting more missiles at WSEP after this!). The missile came off with such a loud roar/whoosh, I not only heard it clearly in the cockpit above the wind noise, radio comm, ear plug, and helmet, I actually FELT the rocket motor roar! In the HUD, you can see the flames shooting out from the tail end of the missile, and the smoke and cons following it!

Stepped immediately to the trailer in HDTWS and press and held the pickle button for at least 3 seconds. Again, thinking: COME ON, DAMN IT! LAUNCH!!! The second missile came off just as impressive as the first after the same painful delay. I yelled "Dirk 1, Fox 6, lead trail!" ("Cricket" Renner later critique my comm as incorrect 3-1 terminology... EAT ME!!!)

Since Boomer was the primary shooter, I assumed he was locked to the leader, so I kept the trailer as the PDT. Didn't want to screw with a good thing, I stayed in HDTWS inside 10nm ("Dozer" Shower, our WIC dude, promptly crititiqued me for NOT going STT inside 10nm upon reviewing my VSD tape, thus I still have to pass my Intercept ride!). Both targets started a check turn to the southwest (14L to 16R aspect) and continued to descent to low teens. Approaching 10nm, checking RWR to make sure we weren't targeted: "Dirk 1 naked !" "Dirk 2 naked !"

"Dirk, let's go pure! "From 30K', both of us rolled our jets inverted and pointed nose low directly at the TD box on the HUD, and pulled throttle to idle. I think my heart rate at this time was reaching my aerobic limit for my age (you know, that formula: 220 minus age...)! Against a broken cloud background, I saw a tiny dot in the TD box about 7 to 8 nm out. "Dirk 1, tally ho nose 7 nm, low ! "Realizing I saw the trailer, I was praying Boomer would soon follow up with a tally call on the leader. Approaching 5 nm, I'm scanning in front of the trailer for the leader but no joy. @#%$! The trailer continued his left turn to southwest and I was looking at approx 14R aspect. Inside of 5 nm, thumb aft to AIM-9 and tried twice to uncage but the tone was not there.

Just then, between the HUD and the canopy bow (about right 12:30 to 1 o'clock position), I saw the leader explode! The best visual description I can think of is if you held a torch from one of those Hawaiian Luau party, and swing it through the air. The flame with a extended tail trailing the torch is exactly what I saw! Turning my attention back to the trailer, the trailer exploded into a streaking flame seconds later just as I tried to uncage the missile the third time! Never mind! "DIRK 1, SPASH TWO MIG-29s, B/E 360/35 !!!

"Heater, I'm ashamed... I was screaming like a woman! Didn't really bothered to keep an eye on the fireballs, so I didn't see any chutes. Later report confirmed both pilots ejected safely. Not that neither Boomer nor I would've felt bad if they morted. Anyway, I called for Boomer and I to reference 080 heading and short range radar. Thumbed aft to AUTOGUNS and plug in full AB and accelerated to 460 kts at 20K'. My cranium was on a swivel and breathing like I just ran a full sprint! "Dirk 2, blind!" Crap!!!! I looked north and it took me a few seconds to find Boomer (about 3.5nm left and stacked high). Tried to talk his eyes back to me, but Boomer called out to west in a right turn. I waited a few seconds to sanitize and turned west as well. During the turn, I immediately pulled into double beeper due to airspeed and Gs (looking back, I should've over G so the mission would've been more impressive...).

Rolling out, I was 3nm in trail of Boomer, so I had him shackle to the south to pick up line abreast. The fun wasn't over yet. Boomer got an AUTOGUN snap lock less than 10 nm south of us, low alt, with no ID. I told him to press for VID while I followed him 3 nm in trail. We were diving back down to the low teens and I saw ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on my radar! Boomer all of a sudden pulls up and yells "Dirk 2, unable ID!" That's BAD!!!

I just about @#%$ in my pants! I saw nothing and after a few seconds I asked Boomer if he saw ANYTHING at all. Boomer said he didn't see anything, so we just stroke it up and separate to the northwest for a while, then came back for a second look. Nobody home! Boomer thought it may have been a bad radar lock. I sure hope so! The rest of the sortie was one excitement after another.

While on the boom, AWACS controller started calling out every single ground traffic as possible contact crossing the border into Bosnia. For a while it sounded like amass attack on Tuzla! By now it was night time, and Boomer (in an offset3~5 nm trail) and I were still running around with our hair on fire! One time AWACS called out contacts very low alt moving towards Tuzla westbound. I didn't see squat on my tube, neither did Boomer. As the position of group started getting closer to Tuzla, I expected to see a burst of explosion from the airfield underneath! Boomer and I were gonna go from "heros to zeros" real soon! Finally I turned the GMTR setting on my trusty APG-70 to low and immediately saw the targets. Locked them up and show 80 kts ground speed! I wanted to reach through the mic and strangle the @#%$ out the controller! [vehicles]

AWACS later called out MiG CAPs just 15 nm northeast of the border! Boomer and I were ready to "Pop a cap in their ass" across the border as soon as we got contact and ID! Again, nothing on the radar. We even did two iterations of grinder with a two ship of Vipers and no one got a solid radar hit. That night we committed and armed hot THREE MORE TIMES AFTER the MiG kills based on ridiculous AWACS calls! No kidding, by the time our replacement showed up (4 hours of vul time later), I was totally exhausted and drained!

The flight across Adriatic was uneventful, and Boomer and I finally had a moment to think about what happened. After I landed and pulled into de-arm, I saw a freak in flight suit and wearing a reflective belt, jumping up and down. Sure enough, it was "Freak" O'Laughlin welcoming us back! Taxi back to the chocks was like having a bunch of kids following an ice cream truck! Everyone came running out and waited at the parking spot for Boomer and I. Boomer taxied in front of me as I pulled into my spot. Losing all professionalism and radio discipline (yada yada...), I called out on Ops freq: "Boomer, YOU'RE the @#%$!!!"

Getting out of the jet and greeting all the bros and maintainers was THE GREATEST MOMENT OF MY CAREER!!! Our Ops Group commander "Wilbur" Eddy was first to shake my hand, followed by the mob! We were laughing, shouting, hooting, high-fiving, and hugging! It was awesome! Couldn't wait to review the tapes, we all piled into the "Turtle" and watched my HUD tapes. Thank God it recorded everything clearly, including the fireball from the trailer. "Homer" Samuel and "Bull" Mitchum almost knocked me over when they came storming into the Turtle! We were all screaming and jumping so hard in the Turtle I though it was going to tip over! Too bad Boomer's VSD tape did not run, and his HUD tape was washed out due to high aperature setting. Boomer and I were laughing and high-fiving entire car ride home! We weren't even suppose to fly that day!

Some afterthoughts:
It no kidding took over a day for this to finally sink in. It felt almost surreal that day/night. "Fish" Bonita, our MX officer, said it best when he saw me hours after I shut down engines: "So, Claw, have you landed yet?" Only one word can describe this event: @#%$_UNBELIEVABLY_LUCKY!!! Not the fact we shot them down, but that they were airborne during our watch. Any Eagle driver could've easily done what Boomer and I did, but as "Heater" Griffin said: "You guys won the lottery!"

The sequence of events happened in our favor like the planets lining up. The jets, the missiles, the radar (well, at least mine) performed marvelously! Our MX dudes deserve the bulk of the credit. We had no spares that day. The crew chiefs and the Pro Super, Jim Snyder, absolutely BUSTED THEIR ASS working red balls and launched us on time! Boomer, my wingman, what can I say? Regardless of whose missile hit which MiG, WE shot down two Fulcrums that afternoon. We succeed as a team, and fail as a team (good thing it was the former)! Boomer did an OUTSTANDING job of finding the group, working the ID matrix, and target according to plan. If I didn't have faith in him, I would not have broken lock to break out the lead trail formation.

Of course I'm proud of what we did, but there's one thing I'll really stick out my chest for: To everyone who taught me and influenced me on my tactical flying and gave me long debriefs (though painful at times), especially "Razor" Johnson, "Elwood" Amidon, "Heater" Griffin (even though he's a meat gazer...), "Homer" Samuel, "Dozer" Shower, "Nuts" Destasio, and "Bear" Gibbs, I DID NOT LETYOU GUYS DOWN!!! It doesn't get much better than this guys! Well, maybe two more kills would be pretty cool...That's all I have to say about that!

Claw out...

Commander Cool
07-17-2004, 07:26 PM
Do all pilots talk like that? I could barely make out half of what he's saying. :roll:

Fox2
07-17-2004, 08:04 PM
Do all pilots talk like that?

Yep. ;)

You can almost taste this Eagle driver smoothing this story over with some hot waitress at the bar. "No ****, there I was..." :lol:

Awesome article, though. Thanks, CAG 147.

soma
07-17-2004, 08:27 PM
About this time both Boomer and I got good ID on the target in our own cockpit and with threat hot towards us inside 30 nm decided to blow off the AWACS/clearance to engage restriction and go for it!

IS why Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan... :bash:

DE_Six
07-17-2004, 08:35 PM
About this time both Boomer and I got good ID on the target in our own cockpit and with threat hot towards us inside 30 nm decided to blow off the AWACS/clearance to engage restriction and go for it!

IS why Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan... :bash:

Why d'you cut the first part? ;)


Checked AAI for friendly squawk: nobody home! We still needed to get clearance from AWACS to engage, so I requested (codeword) and got no reply from the controller (pretty sure he had no 'freakin clue what that codeword meant!). About this time both Boomer and I got good ID on the target in our own cockpit and with threat hot towards us inside 30 nm decided to blow off the AWACS/clearance to engage restriction and go for it!


IFF negative response...that's as far you can go in air-to-air BVR. Can't afford visual all the time (although some F-15Cs flying CAP over Bosnia were outfitted with the "Eagle Eye", a 10x telescope mounted next to the HUD for visual ID :P )

Good read, CAG.

Deuterium
07-17-2004, 09:03 PM
Thanks for the read although after spending WAY too much time at Eagle Base (Tuzla) the part about Tuzla getting hit is a bit of an exageration for the time frame. The only thing they were in threat of was being hit by drunks on the road(probably the ones going 80kts).

ibstolidude
07-18-2004, 12:46 AM
after spending WAY too much time at Eagle Base (Tuzla)

http://ajmani.org/~mjfrazer/sounds/simpsons/nelson/haha.wav
http://www.worldwide-web.com/JeffreyBabad/Simpsons/Nelson/nelson.gif

Midav
07-18-2004, 01:13 AM
Good read!

APOCALYPSE
07-18-2004, 05:03 AM
NATO LOST between 388-400 planes in Kosavo bombings.

2RHPZ
07-18-2004, 05:16 AM
NATO LOST between 388-400 planes in Kosavo bombings.

Yes, you are right. Yesterday I´ve read through an interview with Elvis Presley. He mentioned that he was really disturbed by wreckages of NATO aircrafts during his, BTW very excellent, holiday in Kosovo. He wonders why they don´t remove them. Unfortunatelly it was not approved by Enver Hoxha. Some sources say that Hoxha made an agreement with Tito that these wrecks stay in Kosovo until VSICG conquer their holy land again.

APOCALYPSE
07-18-2004, 05:21 AM
Thanks now time to prove you WRONG!! :D Question #1. How many war planes did NATO start with in the beginning on March 24,1999 bombing Kosavo, don't be affraid to answer rofl

2RHPZ
07-18-2004, 05:25 AM
Thanks now time to prove you WRONG!! :D Question #1. How many war planes did NATO start with in the beginning on March 24,1999 bombing Kosavo, don't be affraid to answer rofl

Did I make mistake previously? Probably I don´t speak English properly because I don´t understand what is your question about? How do you want put number of sorties together with number of lost aircrafts?

APOCALYPSE
07-18-2004, 05:29 AM
Just say "I Don't Know?" it was 160 planes

2RHPZ
07-18-2004, 05:37 AM
It was 160 planes


NATO LOST between 388-400 planes in Kosavo bombings.

???

If you ask me for the real, exact number, I must admit that I don´t know. But I know that you can use your fingers to count them. Your fingers are enough. And please, don´t turn this discussion to the flamewar. No offences, please. Otherwise I must ask mods to lock this (my own) topic. That´s my rule.

APOCALYPSE
07-18-2004, 05:40 AM
Well I'm just responding to that us piolet who was saying what he did in Srbia, and I found a lot of shocking things out about the battles,

DLodge
07-18-2004, 11:15 AM
NATO LOST between 388-400 planes in Kosavo bombings.
Oh here we go again. It seems like every few months one of you fellas comes along.

Look, why don't you not hijack this thread and go read this
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12061&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=site+b2&start=64
Scroll down to about the middle of the page to see where the fun begins.

BTW, are you also one of those folks who thinks a B-2 got shot down?

DLodge
07-18-2004, 11:29 AM
Question #1. How many war planes did NATO start with in the beginning on March 24,1999 bombing Kosavo, don't be affraid to answer rofl

Just say "I Don't Know?" it was 160 planes
In a word...no. You're wrong.

The U.S. alone had committed some 250 aircraft by March 24, including 120 land-based fighters (of which 26 were F-15Es), 7 B-52s, 6 B-2s, 10 reconnaissance aircraft, 10 CSAR aircraft, 3 ABCCC aircraft and 40 tankers.

In addition, 13 NATO members also committed aircraft.

Deuterium
07-18-2004, 12:12 PM
NATO LOST between 388-400 planes in Kosavo bombings.

Please explain. It's a slow Sunday. I need a good laugh.

Midav
07-18-2004, 12:44 PM
I still wonder if Venik's natodown site was a joke, or if he was actually trying to be serious.... :lol:

Commander Cool
07-18-2004, 01:51 PM
Given the information at that time, it was difficult to determine whether a plane was shot down. For example, a sam operator would fire on a plane, and the plane would jetisson its external fuel tanks to be more maneuverable, and the missile would hit the fuel tanks and cause a big explosion, and to the soldiers on the ground, it would look like a direct hit. So they would swear to everyone they saw that they scored a hit. That's one reason for the confusion over number of hits. Also about 30 or so UAV's were shot down, and someone on the ground probably wouldn't be able to distinguish a real plane from a high-flying UAV, another reason for so many claims.

P.S. Interesting fact, Serbian Mig-29 9.12B's (least capable version of the Mig-29) had no chaff dispensers, which means they had no way to counter a radar-guided missile, except by maneuvers. So killing one of these Mig-29's with a AIM-120 is not exactly a big accomplishment worth bragging about.

Deuterium
07-18-2004, 03:17 PM
Given the information at that time, it was difficult to determine whether a plane was shot down. For example, a sam operator would fire on a plane, and the plane would jetisson its external fuel tanks to be more maneuverable, and the missile would hit the fuel tanks and cause a big explosion, and to the soldiers on the ground, it would look like a direct hit. So they would swear to everyone they saw that they scored a hit. That's one reason for the confusion over number of hits. Also about 30 or so UAV's were shot down, and someone on the ground probably wouldn't be able to distinguish a real plane from a high-flying UAV, another reason for so many claims.

P.S. Interesting fact, Serbian Mig-29 9.12B's (least capable version of the Mig-29) had no chaff dispensers, which means they had no way to counter a radar-guided missile, except by maneuvers. So killing one of these Mig-29's with a AIM-120 is not exactly a big accomplishment worth bragging about.

East to say from your armchair. I'd be bragging my ass off if it was me.

DLodge
07-18-2004, 03:39 PM
P.S. Interesting fact, Serbian Mig-29 9.12B's (least capable version of the Mig-29) had no chaff dispensers, which means they had no way to counter a radar-guided missile, except by maneuvers. So killing one of these Mig-29's with a AIM-120 is not exactly a big accomplishment worth bragging about.
Fact is it didn't even matter, because the Mig-29s never saw the Eagles (nobody was spiked). The Migs were already dead, they just didn't know it yet. Chaff wouldn't have made any difference.

And BTW, it's easy to say that the kill is not "a big accomplishment," but the only reason it looks 'easy' to us is because Eagle drivers are so well trained that they can pull that sorta thing off like clockwork. Notice that even in this kill the pilots still made several mistakes and were criticized for them in the debrief.

Commander Cool
07-18-2004, 04:07 PM
East to say from your armchair. I'd be bragging my ass off if it was me.
I'd probably be bragging too, but shooting down a dilapidated malfunctioning Mig-29 with a modern plane that's maintained in tip-top condition is not that big of a deal. There are pilots who have accomplishmed much more difficult feats.


Fact is it didn't even matter, because the Mig-29s never saw the Eagles (nobody was spiked). The Migs were already dead, they just didn't know it yet. Chaff wouldn't have made any difference.
How could a chaff not make any difference? Chaffs are always used to evade radar guided missiles. And the reason the Mig never saw the Eagle is because his radar was broken (due to sanctions they were unable to get the parts to keep their planes in good condition).

DLodge
07-18-2004, 04:29 PM
How could a chaff not make any difference? Chaffs are always used to evade radar guided missiles. And the reason the Mig never saw the Eagle is because his radar was broken (due to sanctions they were unable to get the parts to keep their planes in good condition).
Given that they had extremely poor SA it is highly unlikely that they would have been able to succesfully evade the missiles, chaff or no chaff. And they certainly would have been splashed with subsequent shots.

I'd probably be bragging too, but shooting down a dilapidated malfunctioning Mig-29 with a modern plane that's maintained in tip-top condition is not that big of a deal. There are pilots who have accomplishmed much more difficult feats.
Errr, obviously this dude knows that. In fact, he says so:

Only one word can describe this event: @#%$_UNBELIEVABLY_LUCKY!!! Not the fact we shot them down, but that they were airborne during our watch. Any Eagle driver could've easily done what Boomer and I did, but as "Heater" Griffin said: "You guys won the lottery!"

Deuterium
07-18-2004, 04:34 PM
East to say from your armchair. I'd be bragging my ass off if it was me.
I'd probably be bragging too, but shooting down a dilapidated malfunctioning Mig-29 with a modern plane that's maintained in tip-top condition is not that big of a deal. There are pilots who have accomplishmed much more difficult feats.


Fact is it didn't even matter, because the Mig-29s never saw the Eagles (nobody was spiked). The Migs were already dead, they just didn't know it yet. Chaff wouldn't have made any difference.
How could a chaff not make any difference? Chaffs are always used to evade radar guided missiles. And the reason the Mig never saw the Eagle is because his radar was broken (due to sanctions they were unable to get the parts to keep their planes in good condition).

Sorry you're wrong. Any man that enters the arena and walks away gets to brag, whoever the opponent. I could say the same thing about going to Iraq. I had night vision, thermal sights, Satellite radio with CAS and QRF on call, Imagery and GPS that showed me were to go, a robust CASEVAC system, quality weapons and ammo, terrific training, years of experience, and superior leadership. My enemy had none of these. And none of these made me 100% sure I'd come back with all my parts attached.

el borracho
07-18-2004, 05:02 PM
Sounds like accurate pilot chatter, almost too accurate like you said CAG, I hope for the pilot's sake that information has been declassified. I have read accounts like that which were meant to stay on the "down low," perhaps this was declassed, or at any rate it leaked from the sources.

Also, pilots are not known to be the most humble of people. I don't have first hand experience but if I got the jump on some Mig's (dilapidated or not) I bet my heart would be pounding.

Interesting read...I really enjoy stuff like this (my Air Force pride seeping in). :)

DLodge
07-18-2004, 05:06 PM
Here's a transcript of the engagemen, courtesy of Randy Haskin at www.studentpilot.net:

March 26th, 1999 - USAF F-15C's piloted by J. Hwang and J.McMurray shoot down 2 Serbian MiG-29s. Serb pilots: Peric and Radosavljevic. Weapons AIM-120s.

This was recorded using a scanner, so some of the main radio comm is missing due to frequency hopping. This also accounts for the two spurious transmissions in the middle of the engagement.

MAGIC 77 (AWACS) DIRK FLIGHT (2-ship F-15C)

Magic 77 (AWACS): “All players, Magic-77 ... Magic clean, Bull, zero-three-zero, 45…[unintelligible] break, break”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “All players, Magic, picture - bogey, Bull, zero-two-zero, forty-five, westbound, twenty thousand, radar track.”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Dirk 1, contact there”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Arm hot”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Magic, Dirk, request ‘Purple Onion’”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “Standby”

Unknown: “Clear”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Two, print, MiG-29..” (comm stepped on by wingman)

Dirk 2 (F-15 wingman): “…bandit, one-four, forty-five, twenty-three thousand”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “Magic, the same contact…bogey…radar, twenty-two thousand”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Dirk 2, print hostile, hostile”

Dirk 2 (F-15 wingman): “Dirk 2, engaged there”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Bogey, bandit maneuvering northbound”

Dirk 2 (F-15 wingman): “2 shows same…two's engaged”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Press”

Dirk 2 (F-15 wingman): “Zero-five-five, twenty-four, BRAA, twenty thousand”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Dirk, Combat jett”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “Maneuvering north, twenty-four thousand”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “Magic shows two contacts”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Copy, two contacts there”

Dirk 2 (F-15 wingman): “Fox 3!”

Unidentified: “I have, eh, Frank 35 up, that's about it, it's all yours.”

Unidentified: “Oh, he's uh descending to two-three-zero if he's not there already”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “One bandit’s turning hot [unintelligible]…Dirk, Magic, zero forty-one”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “..pure”

F-15 – “..een thousand.. nose - 8 miles”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “Dirk 1, tally ho nose”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “He's up, twenty-four thousand…southbound”

Dirk 2 (F-15 wingman): “Splash 2, splash 2 MiG-29s! Bullseye, three-six-zero, thirty six!”

F-15 – “Switch radar”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “Do you copy Splash 2?”

Dirk 1(F-15 lead): “A-firm, splash 2”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “At this time picture clean, picture clean”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “Please…give me your…give me the bogey’s position”

Magic 77 (AWACS): “Magic, [unintelligible], bull, zero-zero-five, thirty-five, eastbound”
BTW, some of it is incorrect, oh well...

Commander Cool
07-18-2004, 06:09 PM
Here is an article which describes in detail sorties that Serbian Mig-29's flew during Operation Allied Force. This is probably the most detailed article available about that topic:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_380.shtml

APOCALYPSE
07-19-2004, 01:49 AM
Venik's site is acurate can you please explane why the b.b.c. MADE US AIRFORCE ADDMIT Srbian MiG29 shot down an F15 in a 1 on 1 dogfight? oh let me guess your answer b.b.c. is working with Srbs to discredit U.S. dog fighting tactics rofl hahahahahahahaha

APOCALYPSE
07-19-2004, 01:53 AM
Dloge nato started with 160 plane then increased to 1000 double what they went into iraq with your wrong they didn't startb with 250 it was 160, thats what they (nato) said on cnn so what do you have to say about that ? oh let me guess c.n.n. is working with the Srbs to discredit NATO statements! rofl hahahahahahah

Midav
07-19-2004, 02:17 AM
Venik's site is acurate can you please explane why the b.b.c. MADE US AIRFORCE ADDMIT Srbian MiG29 shot down an F15 in a 1 on 1 dogfight? oh let me guess your answer b.b.c. is working with Srbs to discredit U.S. dog fighting tactics rofl hahahahahahahaha

Of course Ven's site is accurate for you. Because it agrees with your views.

I'm still waiting for the pics of the shot down B-2 or the pics of the other three downed F-117's ;)

Argyll
07-19-2004, 06:32 AM
Who is this coconut?

oldsoak
07-19-2004, 07:44 AM
Dunno, but is good news if he's working for the opposition.

DLodge
07-19-2004, 01:45 PM
Venik's site is acurate can you please explane why the b.b.c. MADE US AIRFORCE ADDMIT Srbian MiG29 shot down an F15 in a 1 on 1 dogfight? oh let me guess your answer b.b.c. is working with Srbs to discredit U.S. dog fighting tactics rofl hahahahahahahaha
Can you post any links to this info? Or am I supposed to believe you when you tell me BBC reported a Mig-29 shot down an F-15?

Dloge nato started with 160 plane then increased to 1000 double what they went into iraq with your wrong they didn't startb with 250 it was 160, thats what they (nato) said on cnn so what do you have to say about that ? oh let me guess c.n.n. is working with the Srbs to discredit NATO statements! hahahahahahah
Again, got a source? A link maybe to the CNN website? Here's where I got my info: http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1365/

And do you have to use so many obnoxious icons?

Here is an article which describes in detail sorties that Serbian Mig-29's flew during Operation Allied Force. This is probably the most detailed article available about that topic:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_380.shtml
I wouldn't trust ACIG farther than I could throw 'em...

Midav
07-19-2004, 02:43 PM
Who is this coconut?

This is an older page of NATO losses (http://www.warinfo.org.yu/natodown.html)

His newer one is here (http://www.aeronautics.ru/yugoslavia/index.htm)

His official site (http://www.aeronautics.ru/) isn't bad, really, if you don't take much of it seriously. ;)

ibstolidude
07-19-2004, 07:52 PM
I heard the VJ stormed across central and southern Europe to take SHAPE and successfully eliminated NATO C4, but the west would not admit this on their propaganda news stations.

Deuterium
07-19-2004, 08:00 PM
I heard the VJ stormed across central and southern Europe to take SHAPE and successfully eliminated NATO C4, but the west would not admit this on their propaganda news stations.

Yeah and they secretly sent their women to marry our single Joes. It's all a plot. Breed us out, those darn sneaky Serbs.

ibstolidude
07-19-2004, 08:30 PM
I heard the VJ stormed across central and southern Europe to take SHAPE and successfully eliminated NATO C4, but the west would not admit this on their propaganda news stations.

Yeah and they secretly sent their women to marry our single Joes. It's all a plot. Breed us out, those darn sneaky Serbs.
They must have known how vulnerable the American fighting man is to bright red and died orange hair.
Sneaky, I'd say so.. you know what they say!
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/509_1090283085_camoclogacrbinacpacava.jpg
Camo Ckopcko (pivo) Crbina Cpacava or something like that.
If they can't beat us - make us join'em

Midav
07-19-2004, 08:32 PM
rofl

wyrm_142
07-19-2004, 08:42 PM
The MiG-29's that were shot down did have chaff/flare:

http://web.pdx.edu/~schmidtk/pics/dirk_results_6.jpg

Large image of above MiG-29 (http://web.pdx.edu/~schmidtk/pics/dirk_results.jpg)

My unit has a slab of the rudder from one of Claw's MiGs.

DLodge
07-19-2004, 11:10 PM
The Migs were also carrying AA-10A and AA-11 missiles, both of which could have ruined those F-15 pilots' day real fast.

Shooting down a Mig-29 with AA-10s, AA-11s, functional countermeasures and a SLOTBACK radar is nothing to sneer at...

APOCALYPSE
07-20-2004, 02:58 AM
I lack the ability to adhere to forum norms; it must be a NATO conspiracy!!

Deuterium
07-20-2004, 03:24 AM
ONE OF THE MAIN WAYS YOU CAN TELL EVERTHING NATO IS SAYING ABOUT THE WAR IN SERBIA IS A LIE, IS THAT SRBIA ONLY HAS 79 WARPLANES, BUT NATO LIKES TO SAY 238 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT SRBIA LOST ONLY 18 WARPLANES THEY DIDN'T WANT TO FIGHT NATO CUZ NATO DID USED NUMBERS, 1000 NATO PLANES VS. 79 SRBIAN PLANES.

Yeah they didn't want to fight NATO they just wanted to keep killing Albo men, women and children. The nerve of NATO.... Sheesh...

APOCALYPSE
07-20-2004, 03:48 AM
where is the live satalite images of the "thousands or hundreds" of inocent Albainians being killed uh, WHY!! caN'T NATO JUST SHOW THIS TO PROVE THIRE CASE ?????????? BECAUSE THERE BWAS NEVER ANY ETHNIC CLEASING JUST SRBIAN ARMY MOPPING UP "ARMED" REBLES OH BUY THE WAY WHY IS U.S.A. FIGHTING SMALL BASICALY 3 WORLD ARMIES THEN TURNING AROUND AND SAYING WE ARE THE MOST POWERFULL ARMY IN THE WORLD HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

mack pl
07-20-2004, 04:34 AM
where is the live satalite images of the "thousands or hundreds" of inocent Albainians being killed uh, WHY!! caN'T NATO JUST SHOW THIS TO PROVE THIRE CASE ?????????? BECAUSE THERE BWAS NEVER ANY ETHNIC CLEASING JUST SRBIAN ARMY MOPPING UP "ARMED" REBLES OH BUY THE WAY WHY IS U.S.A. FIGHTING SMALL BASICALY 3 WORLD ARMIES THEN TURNING AROUND AND SAYING WE ARE THE MOST POWERFULL ARMY IN THE WORLD HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Militaryphotos rule 69-Don't use Caps Lock.

Argyll
07-20-2004, 03:09 PM
Could this be AK Lover/Serbian boy back for another bite at the cherry?

APOCALYPSE
07-20-2004, 03:34 PM
bring it on guy what do you have to say hu? I'll smash it to pices with the truth if it concerns Rus/Srbia 1. question 1. how come we can't see any stars in the U.S.Space missions? rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

ibstolidude
07-20-2004, 04:11 PM
ONE OF THE MAIN WAYS YOU CAN TELL EVERTHING NATO IS SAYING ABOUT THE WAR IN SERBIA IS A LIE, IS THAT SRBIA ONLY HAS 79 WARPLANES, BUT NATO LIKES TO SAY 238 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT SRBIA LOST ONLY 18 WARPLANES THEY DIDN'T WANT TO FIGHT NATO CUZ NATO DID USED NUMBERS, 1000 NATO PLANES VS. 79 SRBIAN PLANES.continue to post ini all caps you will find yourself on the long walk off the short plank.

Follow forum rules.

DLodge
07-20-2004, 04:25 PM
bring it on guy what do you have to say hu? I'll smash it to pices with the truth if it concerns Rus/Srbia 1. question 1. how come we can't see any stars in the U.S.Space missions? rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
I can't believe I'm actually indulging you, but...

I'll say this here now, and return to it many times: the Moon is not the Earth. Conditions there are weird, and our common sense is likely to fail us.

The Moon's surface is airless. On Earth, our thick atmosphere scatters sunlight, spreading it out over the whole sky. That's why the sky is bright during the day. Without sunlight, the air is dark at night, allowing us to see stars.

On the Moon, the lack of air means that the sky is dark. Even when the Sun is high off the horizon during full day, the sky near it will be black. If you were standing on the Moon, you would indeed see stars, even during the day.

So why aren't they in the Apollo pictures? Pretend for a moment you are an astronaut on the surface of the Moon. You want to take a picture of your fellow space traveler. The Sun is low off the horizon, since all the lunar landings were done at local morning. How do you set your camera? The lunar landscape is brightly lit by the Sun, of course, and your friend is wearing a white spacesuit also brilliantly lit by the Sun. To take a picture of a bright object with a bright background, you need to set the exposure time to be fast, and close down the aperture setting too; that's like the pupil in your eye constricting to let less light in when you walk outside on a sunny day.

So the picture you take is set for bright objects. Stars are faint objects! In the fast exposure, they simply do not have time to register on the film. It has nothing to do with the sky being black or the lack of air, it's just a matter of exposure time. If you were to go outside here on Earth on the darkest night imaginable and take a picture with the exact same camera settings the astronauts used, you won't see any stars!
Of course you'll just claim that this is Western propaganda...

Why don't you take me up on my earlier challenge, show me something, from a reputable source, that supports any of your loony arguments?

Upfrontreporting
07-20-2004, 05:47 PM
Apocalypsebollocks:


Sta, sta, sta, mane jebem (not sure of the spelling)



regards

APOCALYPSE
07-20-2004, 06:09 PM
theres no stars cuz they are not on the moon nor were, thats why they don't give you a panaramic view of space they havent mastered the "art of stars and the sun in a picture perfect way, your answer is exactly what I suspected it would be you either read that in a book and or you just assume thats why we don't see the stars nasa loves people to think that so people don't "relise" they've been fooled, let me ask you this if rocks always hit the moon which they do how come they didn't hit the astronauts, the moon dosen't revole so how come no telascope agencieys show us the flag on the moon? let me take a guess it was planted on the dark side of the moon? where did they get the flag? where did they get the flag?

2Sheds_Jackson
07-20-2004, 06:23 PM
I must urge you all to exercise restraint and compassion as you systematically debunk APOCALYPSE's posts. As a medical doctor, ordained minister, and fully licensed plumber, I must ask you to heed my warning. He has constructed a very complete and logical alternate reality for himself, and is only trying to include us into it as an act of friendship.

This type of dissociative disorder is developed as a highly creative survival technique and an attempt to preserve some sort of healthy function. Normally this results from some traumatic episode in the person's past, such as excessive toilet splashdown due to poor diet, the inability to retrieve rectally inserted objects (Legos, small animals), or watching one's mother do it with a circus clown.

This relentless caplocking of his is a brave assertion of his belief system. I applaud his conviction, if not his mental state. His inability to recognize events occurring in a standard three dimensional universe as it exists in time should not be condemned by us. Don't act like dimensionists.

Much like waking a sleepwalker, abruptly dissolving this pretend world could have serious long term consequences for APO. If he is not let down gently, he may face years of marathon masturbatory sessions, a series of jobs requiring the wearing of a nametag and/or paper hat, and uncontrolled flatulence.

Upfrontreporting
07-20-2004, 06:25 PM
Help me anyone, is this guy on drugs???

Commander Cool
07-20-2004, 06:46 PM
The MiG-29's that were shot down did have chaff/flare:
It did not infact have a chaff dispenser. I don't know about flares but a guy who claims to actually flew these planes said on a message board that they did not have chaffs. Your picture is not very clear so I can't tell from it. Or maybe it did have a chaff dispenser but no chaffs to dispense, I don't know, all I know is the guy swears they did not have chaffs.


Shooting down a Mig-29 with AA-10s, AA-11s, functional countermeasures and a SLOTBACK radar is nothing to sneer at...
But that's just it, they weren't functional. You didn't read the link (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_380.shtml) I provided, I know it's long so I'll save you the trouble and highlight the important parts:


Maj. Ljubisa Kulacin evaded several missiles fired at him while fighting to bring his malfunctioning systems back in working order. Eventually realizing that he could not do anything, and with Batajnica AB under a severe attack, he diverted to Belgrade IAP, and landed safely. Kulacin's experience was not much different to that of his three other colleagues, all of which experienced immense problems with weapons and navigational systems on their aircraft: on the 18112, flown by Maj. Arizanov, both the radio and SPO-15 malfunctioned; on 18104, flown by Maj. Ilic, the radar failed; on 18111, flown by Maj. Nikolic, both the radar and the SN-29 missile guidance systems were inoperative, and apparently the SPO-15 also did not function properly.


The fifth and last MiG-29 to get airborne on that night was 18106, flown by Maj. Predrag Milutinovic. Immediately after take-off his radar failed and even the electrical generator malfunctioned.


While pursuing their target their aircraft again suffered several malfunctions: their radars failed, and then also the SPO-15 on Peric’s aircraft.


18101 was the first to be made flyable and Maj. Bora Zoraja flew a single mission with it on 5 April, but he again experienced several malfunctions and returned safely, without engaging any opponent. The engineers stripped the damaged 18104 for spares to repair 18101, but on its next mission, two days later, the aircraft continued suffering similar problems, and the pilot Maj. Milenkovic, returned to base without engaging in combat.


In the meantime, on 6 April, Maj. Ermeti flew MiG-29 18109 – repaired by spares taken from 18105 – into a single mission north of Belgrade, but, after experiencing similar problems with different systems, he failed to engage any of USAF aircraft operating in the area. His aircraft was subsequently declared unfit even for training purposes. After a pause of almost a month, on 4 May finally Lt.Col. Milenko Pavlovic scrambled on MiG-29 to intercept a NATO strike in the area of his home-town Valjevo, which the previous night was first hit by an earthquake and then by a heavy NATO-strike. Appearing too late on the scene and experiencing one malfunction of the weapons and navigation systems on his aircraft, Lt.Col. Pavlovic was eventually intercepted by two USAF F-16Cs

b33f
07-20-2004, 07:16 PM
I know that the author of the article added that "contains a number of technical references. Most the reader can surmise, so they've been left as is so as not to destroy the telling of a might fine sea story" comment...

but could someone with more insight than me (can't understand a lot of his "pilotspek") explain some statements? (e.g. : (NUMBER)nm, we were initially flying ".85M, 28K'", about "14L", WSEP, etc...)

tnx in advance

ibstolidude
07-20-2004, 07:19 PM
the moon dosen't revole actually you are not correct. The moon revolves around the Earth in approx 27 days 8 hours. It rotates around its own axis in the same time. It is in a synchronous rotation with the Earth; thus the same side always faces. And we have yet to talk about libration or the "rocking of the moon; which infact discloses close to 60& percent of the moon to the earth despite that same side always facing. Lets not try and explain the barycenter or the .88 hour advancement.


http://www.digicamhistory.com/earthrise%20large.jpg
that is some great mastery.

Here this is for you - ! http://www.moontruth.com/clips/moontruth.mpg
http://www.moontruth.com/full.htm

and during the daylight hours the sky IS black on the moon - that is this wonderful invention we have called science. See the earth has what is commonly refered to as atmosphere which will diffuse light ( we have these crazy things called water, ozone, you know atmosphere) it diffuses sunlight across the sky Lighting the sky! Hey for en experiment get up really early before the sun comes up and you will notice how the sky gets lighter and lighter before you can actually see the sun. You could even make what is called a "scientific experiment" out of it. If you were REALLY REALLY smart you would purchase a high speed limited exposure 1960's tube camera (the same type used then IS available) and snap a photo and see if the rapid exposure would capture the stars on the film - just be certain to place something brighter (like a light reflected object) in between you and stars - or you could just keep posting "NUHA I told you so!"

Midav
07-20-2004, 07:23 PM
I must urge you all to exercise restraint and compassion as you systematically debunk APOCALYPSE's posts. As a medical doctor, ordained minister, and fully licensed plumber, I must ask you to heed my warning. He has constructed a very complete and logical alternate reality for himself, and is only trying to include us into it as an act of friendship.

This type of dissociative disorder is developed as a highly creative survival technique and an attempt to preserve some sort of healthy function. Normally this results from some traumatic episode in the person's past, such as excessive toilet splashdown due to poor diet, the inability to retrieve rectally inserted objects (Legos, small animals), or watching one's mother do it with a circus clown.

This relentless caplocking of his is a brave assertion of his belief system. I applaud his conviction, if not his mental state. His inability to recognize events occurring in a standard three dimensional universe as it exists in time should not be condemned by us. Don't act like dimensionists.

Much like waking a sleepwalker, abruptly dissolving this pretend world could have serious long term consequences for APO. If he is not let down gently, he may face years of marathon masturbatory sessions, a series of jobs requiring the wearing of a nametag and/or paper hat, and uncontrolled flatulence.

rofl

DLodge
07-20-2004, 08:12 PM
I don't know about flares but a guy who claims to actually flew these planes said on a message board that they did not have chaffs. Your picture is not very clear so I can't tell from it. Or maybe it did have a chaff dispenser but no chaffs to dispense, I don't know, all I know is the guy swears they did not have chaffs.
And you believe some random dude on a message board over a guy who's AD Air Force and serving with a fighter squadron? Cause I don't.

But that's just it, they weren't functional. You didn't read the link (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_380.shtml) I provided, I know it's long so I'll save you the trouble and highlight the important parts:
And you didn't read what I wrote, which is that I consider ACIG to be a less-than-trustworthy source. I did read the article, but considering the absence of sources and the sketchy track record of Tom Cooper in particular, and ACIG in general, I am loath to accept it as gospel.

gaz
07-20-2004, 10:06 PM
question 1. how come we can't see any stars in the U.S.Space missions?

Because NASA are holding out for the biggest star of all to go on one of their space missions.... That's right..... Mr Tom Jones.

http://img25.exs.cx/img25/7678/tom_jones.jpg

That is what you meant isn't it?

oates
07-21-2004, 01:30 AM
Hate to bring this back to the original topic, but people keep saying this was a 2 ship Eagle formation, but doesn't the pilot refer to their planes as Vipers, making this story about F-16's, not F-15's?

Just a random point

APOCALYPSE
07-21-2004, 01:38 AM
WATCH CNN RIGHT NOW NOW THERE SHOWING PICTURES OF SPACE AND STARS LOOK NOW ANY ONE BEFORE THE SHOW CHANGES

hank
07-21-2004, 01:43 AM
WATCH CNN RIGHT NOW NOW THERE SHOWING PICTURES OF SPACE AND STARS LOOK NOW ANY ONE BEFORE THE SHOW CHANGES

WATCH OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW NOW THERE SHOWING PICTURES OF SPACE AND STARS LOOK NOW ANY ONE BEFORE THE SHOW CHANGES

WATCH OUTSIDE TOMORROW NIGHT THERE GOING TO SHOW PICTURES OF SPACE AND STARS LOOK NOW ANY ONE BEFORE THE SHOW CHANGES

WATCH OUTSIDE THE NIGHT AFTER NEXT THERE GOING TO SHOW PICTURES OF SPACE AND STARS LOOK NOW ANY ONE BEFORE THE SHOW CHANGES

. . . . .

hank

Midav
07-21-2004, 02:04 AM
rofl

APOCALYPSE
07-21-2004, 02:05 AM
For those how might have seen it did you notice it was a picture FROM space and it showed suns in far galaxies and other stars ( guess there called planets right) NOW!! (remember if you just saw the cnn broadcast it was with Aaron Brown just a few minutes ago) how come we don't see the stars and other suns (just like that outer space view on Aaron Browns Broadcast) when those supposed astronuts walked on the moon, (the cnn show showed an outerspace picture not a earth picture looking out into space,) can someone explane. I asked this before where did they get the flag that they supposedly planted on the moon? have you ever looked at the real footage of them on the moon with the flag I heard/saw in weightlessness you move slow and on the moon with 1/3 the gravity you move a little faster than in absolute space but it's still slow did you notice when they walked on the moon the where floating and walking much slower than earth? I know you did, NOW!! DID YOU NOTICE AT TIMES THE FLAG MOVES NOT!! IN A SLOW MOTION BUT JUST LIKE A FLAG ON EARTH HU????? LOOK AT THE FOTAGE YOUR SEE EXACTLY WHAT YOUR SEEIN a facked studio footage some were in the Nevada desert, oh space isn't hot it isn't cold it's the closest thing you can get to " to a nothingness" temprature didn't "(for those who saw the moon fooptage) you hear the astronNUTS complaining about it's to COLD atimes a cold THAT DOESN'T EXIST in space? hu? anyone one chalege me on this? remember Superman part 2 notice when the three bad guys flew to the moon notice the special effects still made the astronuts LOOK like they were moving in slow motion hu? there are few ways to do that 1. film actors normaly walking in a moke moon then have the three bad guys stand in front of a BIG screen AND PLAY "IN SLOW MOTION" THE astronuts ( i don't know how to spell astronuts properly so don't go of the DEEEEP END LIKE THE GOOD OL' DOC HERE AND THINK I'm trying to give you subliminal messages) anyways, walking or 2. just put clear wires on the suits and have the astonuts seming to walk in semi weightlessnes on the moon in the move, now do you see how EASY it is to FAKE being on the moon? people back in 69 there wasn't that many movies out there that showed this type of special effects (not because they didn't exist though) so people can eazaly belive "they were really there?"

Midav
07-21-2004, 02:10 AM
Pulls out police loudspeaker

Put the doobie down and back away! You are having a bad trip. Eat lot's of snickers, potato chips and pop tarts, then go to sleep.

mack pl
07-21-2004, 03:58 AM
"THE TRUTH MUST BE OUT THERE"
Fox Apoca...ekhmm...Mulder.

-Archon-
07-21-2004, 08:27 AM
oh space isn't hot it isn't cold it's the closest thing you can get to " to a nothingness" temprature didn't "(for those who saw the moon fooptage) you hear the astronNUTS complaining about it's to COLD atimes a cold THAT DOESN'T EXIST in space? hu? anyone one chalege me on this?

My field of expertise so I'll challenge you on this subject.

It is usually said that there is no temperature in space. However space isn't empty. Due to background radiation and quantum mechanics there is a temperature of 2.7289K in the "perfect" vacum of space. That is, far away from any galaxies and stars.

Near Earth objects that transfer heat efficiently will become around 5K if sheilded from the sun and about 280K if not (as the background radiation is higher near stars).

The astronaut's suit will have a temperature and it will lose temperature to the surrounding space, this is called heat dissipation through radiation. This will continue until thermodynamic equilibrium is achieved. That is, the background radiation does not heat the body, nor does the body heat the surrounding particles in space.

So in the end this means that The Astronaut will lose heat to the suit that radiates heat into space and therefore the astronaut may feel a chill.

Sources:
Degree in Engineering Physics
Physics Handbook ISBN91-44-16575-7
Common Sense

Commander Cool
07-21-2004, 12:51 PM
And you didn't read what I wrote, which is that I consider ACIG to be a less-than-trustworthy source. I did read the article, but considering the absence of sources and the sketchy track record of Tom Cooper in particular, and ACIG in general, I am loath to accept it as gospel.
This is a surprise, I always thought Acig is one of the best sources on the internet. What reason do you have to believe that Acig is not credible? I think Tom Cooper has personally travelled to these airbases and spoken with pilots themselves. If you doubt his information why don't you go to that forum and ask him to clarify his sources?