The role of light recon helicopters today

[arcadian]

Not quite sure if this is the area for this subject. I'm just wondering what use a light recon helicopter such as the OH-58 or the Gazelle has in modern warfare with the availability of the AH64 or Tiger?

To clarify my question, why would a major power such as the US use a light observation helicopter to gather intel when it has UAV's, satellites and more powerful AH64 gunships at its disposal? Does the OH58 for example offer an advantage over the Apache or Havoc when it comes to intelligence gathering on the battlefield

[Vandervahn]

Not quite sure if this is the area for this subject. I'm just wondering what use a light recon helicopter such as the OH-58 or the Gazelle has in modern warfare with the availability of the AH64 or Tiger?

To clarify my question, why would a major power such as the US use a light observation helicopter to gather intel when it has UAV's, satellites and more powerful AH64 gunships at its disposal? Does the OH58 for example offer an advantage over the Apache or Havoc when it comes to intelligence gathering on the battlefield

Well, main impetus is costs on all levels. Opposed to combat helicopters recon helicopters are cheaper to acquire, to maintain, to service, to train the crews and, morbid but true, both equipment and crew is cheaper to replace in case of a loss. Even the mighty US military has a finite budget.

The Kiowa in specific reportedly has not only the highest combat readiness percentage, but also the least maintenance hours of the whole US Army arsenal. Smaller, more conventional helicopters also offer certain flexibilities that attack helicopters do not offer, namely a cargo/passenger hold, more maneuverability and enough firepower for the occasional fire support.

Compared to UAV and satellite recon, I wouldnt underestimate their operating costs and availability. Specifically satellites are heavily restricted and it is almost impossible to get approval for using them for "menial" tactical surveillance. Most are useless for that anyway due to an unavoidable delay in sending the data to ground control, from there to the theater, from there to the commanders in situ.

Lastly, you´ll have to have luck to find a satellite with the imaging capabilities you require ready at the right spot at the right time. You cant exactly fly them where you need them in a hurry - and even the dozens, possibly hundreds of active spy satellites in the sky can only cover a tiny fraction of the earth at any given time.

And with UAV, well, there still is no camera- and image recognition technology that can rival biological eyes within normal sight parameters. Humans can not only register approximately 1 Gigabyte of information per second, but also process, validate and categorize the information almost instantaneous.

[S.P]

multitasking is extremely useful, for example the kiowa is armed, can guide other aircraft, can be used for observation can perform emergency evacuation if necessary (just like the apache was used)

[Spliffer]

Per Vandervahn, they're cheaper and easier to maintain.
Availability is directly related to cost. Why go to work in the Mercedes when you've got a perfectly good Toyota for day-to-day commuting.
And I'd rather get a ding in the Toyota than the Mercedes...

So why put a Puma (or G~d forbid a Rooivalk) in harms way when there's a perfectly good Alouette capable of doing the same thing...

Incidentally, how would you use an Apache for evacuation? I don't doubt that it's been done. I'm just interested in how exactly it was used...

[arcadian]

The only time I have ever heard of an Apache being used for "evac" was by the AAC in Afghan to evac the body of a dead colleague (not too sure of name and regiment). Quite inventive the way they did it. A small team of infantry quite literally sat on the stubwings and leapt off during the assault phase if I remember correctly (feel free to expand on this anyone, don't know full details).

I understand whats been said, but in todays wars...for example Afghanistan...would it not be easier to have an armed flight of two Apaches carrying twice or three times the payload of a pair of OH58s report on enemy movement then engage and potentially destroy them at the same time?

I'm sure certain nations would prefer a light observation helicopter because the haven't got the resources to purchase and maintain a heavier weapon and a light attack helicopter would work just as well in any potential conflict...for example Kenyan MD500 Defenders or Ecuadorian Gazelles...but for a major nation fighting a small scale or low intensity conflict wouldn't it be easier to send gunships out on search and destroy type missions

[Scoobz187]

I just want to say that the german forces never had have a heavy gunship in the last 50 years. Until now our forces used the BO-105 in different versions. It can be used as FOB as AT Heli and communications and small transport Helicopter. It was used because the roll of german forces in cold war was clearly the anti tank role. But this helicopter was the most agible one over a lot of years. Now the Tiger is introduced to german forces and this will be the end of the 105. The Tiger brings a new technical level to our forces with FLIR and stuff. He has a good flight pattern but is a much bigger one then the 105. I think both would be the perfect team (something like scout/sniper^^) but it would be to expensive to let them both stay in duty.


A BO-105 PAH (AT) without HOT tubes on the weaponstation

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/4/0/1125049.jpg

[Vandervahn]

The only time I have ever heard of an Apache being used for "evac" was by the AAC in Afghan to evac the body of a dead colleague (not too sure of name and regiment). ...

In 2007 near Ramadi/Iraq an US Apache crew succesfully medevaced a critically shot infantryman by putting him in the gunner seat, while the gunner strapped himself to the wing and fuselage of the aircraft for the ride.

[Britishhawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epyJl6btNq8

Apache Rescue's have been done a few times.

[JUNKHO]

I realize you are asking for "today's role", but you might want to go back and search for articles relating to the LHX/Comanche program. Many of the same aspects considered then are probably still important. If I remember correctly there was also UAV research being done at that time (late 80s) that may also hold some valid information. Unfortunately, the issue often goes the same way as many comparison threads, ie. the loach is better than the 58, the gazelle wins over the alouette, the BO couldn't handle the mission like the agusta, etc, etc, etc. Hope you can get input from real, live scout/recon pilots and from those who have recent and active experience with helicopter recon both in what works from the current inventory and what is needed that is not available.

Good luck in shaping and updating the general discussion.

[ayanami_tard]

some choose light helos because they can't afford to own a dedicated attack helo



just saying

[arcadian]

That's true, and as I said for many nations the light observation helicopter suits the role of attack too, eg again Kenyan Defenders or Ecuadorian Gazelles. What I do find rather interesting is to my knowledge, Russia/the USSR nor China ever operated a light observation helo. The Z-11 has only recently been kitted out for this role hasn't it? And the Chinese Gazelles were more for "Op-For" type roles than actual front line use.
Did the Russians intend the Ka-50 to be used as an observation platform?
I know the Russian army/air force operates a couple of Ka-32 fitted with radar so are these battlefield observation choppers?

Also would todays modern attack helicopters such as the Havoc, Alligator, Mangusta, Tiger or Apache be a good recon tool for their respective armies

[Scoobz187]

MI - 2 and 4 where also used as observation Helos together with MI-8 as flying HQ´s. But that was more related to other warzsaw pact country.

To the second question:

I think they will do good enough for this job. They are more one component of modern recon i guess. Together with UAV´s, modern survillance tech. and so on they will fit their role.

[baboon6]

That's true, and as I said for many nations the light observation helicopter suits the role of attack too, eg again Kenyan Defenders or Ecuadorian Gazelles. What I do find rather interesting is to my knowledge, Russia/the USSR nor China ever operated a light observation helo. The Z-11 has only recently been kitted out for this role hasn't it? And the Chinese Gazelles were more for "Op-For" type roles than actual front line use.
Did the Russians intend the Ka-50 to be used as an observation platform?
I know the Russian army/air force operates a couple of Ka-32 fitted with radar so are these battlefield observation choppers?

Also would todays modern attack helicopters such as the Havoc, Alligator, Mangusta, Tiger or Apache be a good recon tool for their respective armies

Yes, though it may not be their primary role, the fact that they have the sensors that they do enables them do this job effectively, even if it is only to find their own targets.

[dedbunniez]

Light helicopters cost less.

Fuel, materials etc. All cost somoething.

[Corrupt]

The only time I have ever heard of an Apache being used for "evac" was by the AAC in Afghan to evac the body of a dead colleague (not too sure of name and regiment). Quite inventive the way they did it. A small team of infantry quite literally sat on the stubwings and leapt off during the assault phase if I remember correctly (feel free to expand on this anyone, don't know full details).


It was the Royal Marines at Jugroom Fort. Ed Macy (one of the apache crews involved) descirbes it very well in his book (Apache)

Basically due to using names and not Zap numbers, a casualty got left behind as there were two Marines called ford. The Apaches kept the taliban away from him while the Marines got ready to go back in and collect him. After lots of delays with things going through the wrong channels, the crews decided to break every rule in the book and lifted in 4 Marines on the sides of the helos who grabbed him, strapped him onto the helo and flew him to safety. Unfortunately he was dead when they landed, but his body had stayed warm on the FLIR and they assumed he was only wounded.

Needless to say they got in an apocalyptic amount of trouble. They landed close to the enemy, 2 of the 4 crew left the helos to help the marines, the strapping on technique was only cleared for use on trained apache crews if their birds went down behind enemy lines and there were insufficient straps so some of the marines just had to hold on and possibly people would expect Apache evacuation services in future. However the RSM of the marines personally thanked the crews with the words "I told my boys we wouldnt leave anyone behind no matter what. But you guys proved that we mean it. It meant a lot to all the young marines." Eventually further up the chain of command the furour "dissapeared"

Oh and one of the crew whose name escapes me had the dubious honour of being the british Serviceman to get the furthest into the compound when he was disorientated by dust and ran the wrong way straight into half a dozen taliban, The two marines following him were surprised when he came sprinting the otherway followed by a hail of Ak rounds...

The Apaches involved in the incident expended £1,499,000 worth of ordanancein the incident

Il get the book later and clarify those facts and add some more later...

[baboon6]

It was the Royal Marines at Jugroom Fort. Ed Macy (one of the apache crews involved) descirbes it very well in his book (Apache)

Basically due to using names and not Zap numbers, a casualty got left behind as there were two Marines called ford. The Apaches kept the taliban away from him while the Marines got ready to go back in and collect him. After lots of delays with things going through the wrong channels, the crews decided to break every rule in the book and lifted in 4 Marines on the sides of the helos who grabbed him, strapped him onto the helo and flew him to safety. Unfortunately he was dead when they landed, but his body had stayed warm on the FLIR and they assumed he was only wounded.

Needless to say they got in an apocalyptic amount of trouble. They landed close to the enemy, 2 of the 4 crew left the helos to help the marines, the strapping on technique was only cleared for use on trained apache crews if their birds went down behind enemy lines and there were insufficient straps so some of the marines just had to hold on and possibly people would expect Apache evacuation services in future. However the RSM of the marines personally thanked the crews with the words "I told my boys we wouldnt leave anyone behind no matter what. But you guys proved that we mean it. It meant a lot to all the young marines." Eventually further up the chain of command the furour "dissapeared"

Oh and one of the crew whose name escapes me had the dubious honour of being the british Serviceman to get the furthest into the compound when he was disorientated by dust and ran the wrong way straight into half a dozen taliban, The two marines following him were surprised when he came sprinting the otherway followed by a hail of Ak rounds...

The Apaches involved in the incident expended £1,499,000 worth of ordanancein the incident

Il get the book later and clarify those facts and add some more later...

The RSM of 45 Commando was one of the four men who went in strapped to the Apaches, the other three being a Royal Engineers Captain and two Marines from 45.

[yasotay]

There is more to it than just cost, although given the mission they perform big expensive helicopters are a liability (from a cost perspective). Light scouts operate in support of the ground forces (in the U.S.Army at least) and they operate forward and around the ground forces trying to find the bad guys first. I know this is a no s**t statement but let me get on with it. Small scouts can see things that UAS cannot, like footprints in the snow on mountain ridges where they there should be none. I know fellows who found ammo cache by following bicycle tracks. Aero Scouts have found the enemy by smelling cooking smoke where their ought not to be any. Also smaller scout helicopters are not as noisy so you can sneak up on folks but more importantly you can hear people shooting at you (really you can). They have found the bad guy in the crowd because they made eye contact with him. UAS have followed groups of men for hours without being able to tell if the group is carrying weapons. Aero Scouts can get as close as need be to figure out post haste who the group are and what their intensions are. Carrying rockets, guns and missiles if need be they can without further discussion deal with anyone who takes exception to them being there.

UAS are marvelous tools that help the ground commander execute his mission and they can hang around for hours and up to a day. Their biggest drawback is that they have very narrow fields of view and very poor eyesight at that (i.e.image quality). More importantly they are a single sensor compared to a human who has vision, hearing and smell all tied to the most advanced processor on the planet (the brain).

If we ever go back to fighting in big mechanized formations then the UAS will no doubt be of tremendous use until the air defenses in the formation deal with them, but that is another argument.

[Corrupt]

The RSM of 45 Commando was one of the four men who went in strapped to the Apaches, the other three being a Royal Engineers Captain and two Marines from 45.

You're quite right he was. I think it was just a general "thanks for looking out for younger booties" kind of thing. Il quote the book directly....


An older Royal marine wearing a WO1's rank slide stepped out infront of us. "Excuse me gents, did you two fly at Jugroom Fort today, by any chance"
We nodded
"Im the RSM of 42 Commando" he grabbed both our hands and gave them a bone crunching shake "What you boys did there was outstanding. Thank you for bringing him back. We always tell them this, but you showed all my young lads for real that we never leave anyone behind"
We were gobsmacked by the strength of his emotiont
"If there is ever anything I can ever do for you or any of the other Apache guys just tell me"

[arcadian]

O.K. so in terms of future aircraft what shoud we expect to see in the way of light attack/observation helicopters or will the role eventually be taken over by more advanced UAV's? Would the US re-consider the RAH-66 Commanche at some stage? The idea of a light attack/observation platform incorporating stealth characteristics seems to have been given the "ok" by Japan with the Ninja...albeit an aircraft that was ordered in small numbers...so would the US opt for perhaps a cheaper Commanche at some stage or perhaps improve their UAV technology?

Could Russia and China do with producing a dedicated light attack/observation platform? Perhaps an improved Chinese Z-11 (I'm working on the assumption that the Z-11 is not too hightech) or recon platform based on the Russian Ansat for example.

Would a stealth helicopter like the Commanche be a good idea given recent conflicts like Afghanistan and Iraq were most enemy fire comes from assault rifles and RPG's or older MANPADs that are fired by indiviudals who have seen their target rather than radar targeted defences? Or would it be worth considering the threat of conflict with a modern enemy who has advanced defences where a stealth helicopter would have an increased chance of survivability?

[yasotay]

There are different sorts of stealth. Radar stealth is an awful waste of money and there has yet to be a helicopter shot down by a radar guided system (to my knowledge). Rotor systems make it hard to evade radar anyway. Infra-red stealth (making the aircraft colder) might be worth the investment. For my money what would really pay of is making the aircraft quieter. Almost all recorded shoot downs are to eyeball directed weapons. Most eyeball engagements are cued by hearing the helicopter first.

While attack helicopters can do the mission for my money to air scout need a small quiet helo that does not have a lot of high tech. A FLIR and a radio are the most important thing for a scout. A reliable gun (.50cal is enough) and an ability to carry a couple light precision ranged missile are still the order of the day if you ask me.

[Alfacentori]

Are any LRH's still used as lead in elements for gunships, like the Kiowa was supposed (in Cold War doctrine) to scout ahead of Apache units and identify enemy armoured formations using its speed and agility, the Apaches then being able to launch a BVR or behind cover strike without having to reveal their location using the scouting helicopters targeting info?

Alfa

[JUNKHO]

If you work a scenario where it has been decided that there is a role for recon helicopters then I think there are several other points that have to be accepted -

There has to be a minimum of 2 person crew. Pilot will be to busy flying and manging flight systems. Observer does recon. (May wish to consider enlisted pilot and observer for crew)
Armament is strictly for target development, target marking/exploitation, and protection/disengagement.
Pilot manages the fixed guns/rockets, observer needs separate flex gun capability.
Recon is primarily for the heavy bird, but not limited to it. Must be multi-capable and integrated. Arty, air assets (UAV also), naval, ground, all must be integral, inter-acted with.
I agree with previous suggestion about the recon helicopter not needing to be low viz to radar, but AO will also have an impact on this. In AO with terrain definition, there will not be as much need as flat ground or top of tree areas. The recon helicopter will need to be small, have redundant systems and deep protection on critical component areas. Much of the pertinent data exists as a results of the LHX/Comanche studies.
to be continued/

[JUNKHO]

Are any LRH's still used as lead in elements for gunships, like the Kiowa was supposed (in Cold War doctrine) to scout ahead of Apache units and identify enemy armoured formations using its speed and agility, the Apaches then being able to launch a BVR or behind cover strike without having to reveal their location using the scouting helicopters targeting info?

Alfa

Good question - why I was hoping to see some of those people currently "whirlin' n twirlin" in the discussion. Not necessarily to say exactly what they are doing but to kind of (?guide?) the discussion so it doesn't stray.

[yasotay]

While not "whirlin' n twirlin" I'll give it my best shot since I still have a hand in the mix, although I agree it would be nice to here from someone still in the business. The modern US aeroscout is not as frequently being used to scout ahead of the guns. That does not mean they don't ever work together, but if you look at the organizations these days the Apaches and KW's are not in the same battalions any more. They can be formed into Task Forces, but that is commonly done to allow both aircraft to operate in a particular AO as opposed to the old fashion teaming from my Cobra days. Today the old "pink team" is more likely to be a Shadow UAS finding something and bringing in the guns to shoot. Right now the KW acts as both scout and guns so if they find something they try to deal with unless the situation dictates bringing in the heavys. Remember that all of the US Apaches are now "D" models capable of having the Longbow radar installed to allow them to detect armored formations (I think the UK flies them still using the terrain mapping capability). The Apache's are now getting the new MTADS (Modernized Target Acquistion Designation System) that gives them fantastic long range sensor capabilities. Apaches are big, noisy and much more expensive to fly than the smaller KW. Because of there accoustic signature the current target set has a tendency to stop doing bad things when Apache shows up knowing it can take a long time to get permission to shoot. Because KW is quieter they tend to be able to sneek up on the target set and get EYES on and engage before the enemy realizes they are watching. Apaches does catch targets in the act many times but the number of times the targets stop before authorization to shoot comes through is a lot more than with the KW crews. The new upgrades for the KW will see the sensor moved off the top of the rotor system (put there so it could peek over ridge lines and buildings in Germany in the Cold War) to under the nose so they can look down without having to look through the rotors. Probably along the same improvements as the Apache got.
Other than tactics there is also the reality that an Apache runs about ~$30Mil (US) while the replacement for the KW is most likely going to be ~10 to ~15$ Mil(US). I don't have the cost per flying hours for the aircraft but I would bet that the KW is much less to operate per hour than an AH-64D. In fact I think an Apache could only run for about half an hour on a full bag of gas for a KW. So there is no doubt that money is part of the game.
The US Army will likely soon send out its requirements for a KW replacement since they still have a requirement.
Almost forgot the next version of the Longbow Apache (Block 3) will have the ability to do manned-unmanned teaming, so the traditional scout-weapon team of the future is likely to be a "remotely" manned platform working with the guns, while the manned scout will continue to go out and use three fused sensors linked to a realtime central processor.

[JUNKHO]

While not "whirlin' n twirlin" I'll give it my best shot since I still have a hand in the mix, although I agree it would be nice to here from someone still in the business.
Almost forgot the next version of the Longbow Apache (Block 3) will have the ability to do manned-unmanned teaming, so the traditional scout-weapon team of the future is likely to be a "remotely" manned platform working with the guns, while the manned scout will continue to go out and use three fused sensors linked to a realtime central processor.

Nice input. Thank you. Sorry about the corny reference to "W and T". It speaks to the amount of time I have been away from the "business" as it were.

In your reference to the "manned scout", can you say if this is an extension of the OH-58D or evolution/development of a light recon system?

[yasotay]

Kiowa Warrior is likely to be around for a while still. As to how fancy the "replacement" gets (new airframe or souped up existing airframe) will depend on a lot of things besides just what the troops want or need. Aerospace industry is a Machiavellian supper club at best. Add politics and government bureaucracy and we might well have a moon base before we get a new scout.

My humble opinion.

[arcadian]

Yep a very true sad fact is that militaries around the world seem to take forever these days to purchase replacements for old equipment.