Bliar's Iraq Mass Graves Claims Untrue

[OB Kenobi]

Tony Bliar lies again. I remember during the Kosovo invasion, he made similar claims about the Serbs. Those turned out to be lies too.

PM admits graves claim 'untrue'
Peter ********, foreign affairs editor
Sunday July 18, 2004
The Observer

Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that '400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves' is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered.

The claims by Blair in November and December of last year, were given widespread credence, quoted by MPs and widely published, including in the introduction to a US government pamphlet on Iraq's mass graves.

In that publication - Iraq's Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves produced by USAID, the US government aid distribution agency, Blair is quoted from 20 November last year: 'We've already discovered, just so far, the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves.'

On 14 December Blair repeated the claim in a statement issued by Downing Street in response to the arrest of Saddam Hussein and posted on the Labour party website that: 'The remains of 400,000 human beings [have] already [been] found in mass graves.'

The admission that the figure has been hugely inflated follows a week in which Blair accepted responsibility for charges in the Butler report over the way in which Downing Street pushed intelligence reports 'to the outer limits' in the case for the threat posed by Iraq.

Downing Street's admission comes amid growing questions over precisely how many perished under Saddam's three decades of terror, and the location of the bodies of the dead.

The Baathist regime was responsible for massive human rights abuses and murder on a large scale - not least in well-documented campaigns including the gassing of Halabja, the al-Anfal campaign against Kurdish villages and the brutal repression of the Shia uprising - but serious questions are now emerging about the scale of Saddam Hussein's murders.

It comes amid inflation from an estimate by Human Rights Watch in May 2003 of 290,000 'missing' to the latest claims by the Iraqi Prime Minister, Iyad Allawi, that one million are missing.

At the heart of the questions are the numbers so far identified in Iraq's graves. Of 270 suspected grave sites identified in the last year, 55 have now been examined, revealing, according to the best estimates that The Observer has been able to obtain, around 5,000 bodies. Forensic examination of grave sites has been hampered by lack of security in Iraq, amid widespread complaints by human rights organisations that until recently the graves have not been secured and protected.

While some sites have contained hundreds of bodies - including a series around the town of Hilla and another near the Saudi border - others have contained no more than a dozen.

And while few have any doubts that Saddam's regime was responsible for serious crimes against humanity, the exact scale of those crimes has become increasingly politicised in both Washington and London as it has become clearer that the case against Iraq for retention of weapons of mass destruction has faded.

The USAID website, which quotes Blair's 400,000 assertion, states: 'If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II.'

It is an issue that Human Rights Watch was acutely aware of when it compiled its own pre-invasion research - admitting that it had to reduce estimates for the al-Anfal campaign produced by Kurds by over a third, as they believed the numbers they had been given were inflated.

Hania Mufti, one of the researchers that produced that estimate, said: 'Our estimates were based on estimates. The eventual figure was based in part on circumstantial information gathered over the years.'

A further difficulty, according to Inforce, a group of British forensic experts in mass grave sites based at Bournemouth University who visited Iraq last year, was in the constant over-estimation of site sizes by Iraqis they met. 'Witnesses were often likely to have unrealistic ideas of the numbers of people in grave areas that they knew about,' said Jonathan Forrest.

'Local people would tell us of 10,000s of people buried at single grave sites and when we would get there they would be in multiple hundreds.'

A Downing Street spokesman said: 'While experts may disagree on the exact figures, human rights groups, governments and politicians across the world have no doubt that Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people and their remains are buried in sites throughout Iraq.'

[Romulus]

according to the best estimates that The Observer has been able to obtain, around 5,000 bodies.

No hard facts I see.

[One?]

Whats next? Saddam's Iraq was a eutopia?

[mobster]

Someone should tell Mr. BLAIR that someone is trying to impersonating him. Scoundrel.

[OB Kenobi]

according to the best estimates that The Observer has been able to obtain, around 5,000 bodies.

No hard facts I see.

Just like all of Bliar's claims.

[Kilgor]

No.. see.. saddam was a good man. Its bush and blair that made up all these lies... Infidel lies i tell you !!!

[usa320]

holy **** OB Kenobi, go find osama and screw him and shut the hell up already if you love these scum bags so much.

god damn...

[He219]

Now I've heard it all; 'Bosnian and Iraqi Mass Grave claims untrue' ...

Some people also claim the Holocaust never happened.

:cantbeli:

[ShadowNeo]

So, if these mass grave claims are untrue, how many people must be dead and buried to constitute a mass grave?

[Helly]

So, if these mass grave claims are untrue, how many people must be dead and buried to constitute a mass grave?

If you ask OB Kenobi, 5,000 bodies are not enough. ;)

Shia News: Horrors of Iraq's Mass Graves (http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000374.php)

[Deuterium]

Have you ever been to Iraq OB? If not, I would respectfully ask you to go there and ask ANY family a few questions about the Saddam regime. Although not scientific by any means EVERY family I ever talked to had stories of murder by Saddam’s regime. I'd be willing to bet my paycheck the number is far higher than 5,000.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

rofl
You know, I can now tell who the author of these threads are, without even looking. Right again!

The only thing this article accomplishes is to justify Blair's own inaccuracies.

Summary; Blair lied! His numbers were inflated! But we can't exactly tell you the real numbers because gosh, these things are really hard to figure out. Security is bad - the locals exaggerate - man, it's a bitch. So yeah, we really have no clue either. But it's not like Blair said - honest.

[panzerjager]

All of Obi's post are troll flame posts. Any reason the mods don't ban him? Also, his name is spelled " Blair."

[BlackRain]

OB Kenobi is definitely mentally ill.

Since he will not believe Blair or Bush or the Iraqi victims regarding Saddam's mass graves; here is visual proof:



http://massgraves.info/13.jpg

http://massgraves.info/26.jpg

Goto to this website in Arabic: http://massgraves.info/

[BlackRain]

Investigators Say Iraqi Mass Graves Hold 300,000

BAGHDAD (*******) - Iraqi and U.S. rights investigators said on Saturday they suspected Iraq had up to 260 mass graves containing the bodies of at least 300,000 people murdered by the former regime of Saddam Hussein.

They told a conference that the task of identifying bodies and preparing evidence for tribunals could take years and millions of dollars, but the long process would be worth it to heal the wounds of three decades of brutal Baath Party rule.

"We have reports of 260 mass graves and we have confirmed approximately 40 of them," said Sandra Hodgkinson, director of the Coalition Provisional Authority's (CPA) mass grave action plan'.

"We believe, based on what Iraqis have reported to us, that there are 300,000 dead and that's the lower end of the estimates.

"In Bosnia it's now eight or nine years since similar atrocities and only 8,000 bodies out of 30,000 have been uncovered. Here in Iraq it's 300,000," said Hodgkinson, a human rights lawyer brought in by the CPA after U.S.-led forces toppled Saddam in April. More sites could still be found.

The three-day conference aims to prepare Iraqi rights workers and officials of the Iraqi human rights ministry for the process of disinterring graves and convincing families that they should wait rather than rush to dig up bodies themselves.

Hodgkinson said only 11 of the 260 sites had been disturbed since the graves were first discovered in May, when distraught families frantically dug around for the remains of loved ones.

Iraqi officials, who will gradually take over control of the investigations, also called for patience.

"Iraq doesn't have the capability at present to do the work of investigation. The main task for the moment is how to protect the sites which have been opened," Human Rights Minister Abdel-Basset Turki told the meeting.

KURDS VICTIMISED

The U.S. military has footed the bill for satellite imaging to identify sites, but Turki said more money would be needed.

Iraq's Governing Council asked an international donor conference in Madrid last month for $100 million to be spent on equipment and manpower over the next five years, but Turki said little has been forthcoming yet.

A team of forensic experts will arrive in Iraq in January to begin work on up to 20 sites around the country where evidence will be collected for future trials of regime figures. Work to identify bodies has begun at the other 200-odd sites.

Investigators have identified six major crime periods: 1983 attacks on Kurds, a 1988 campaign against Kurds, chemical weapons attacks on Kurds 1986-88, the 1991 crushing of a southern Shi'ite revolt, 1991 crushing of Kurdish insurrection, and crimes against all sectors of the population during the entire period of Baath rule.

Rafid al-Husseiny, a doctor who has led disinterring work at the Mahaweel site near Hilla south of Baghdad, is leading efforts to train Iraqis in the gravedigging process.

"Since May we have investigated a mass grave there of 3,115 people. We identified 2,115 bodies, which were reburied by their families," he said, stressing reconciliation among Iraqis.

"Iraqi citizens must look with both eyes, one looking to the future and one looking toward the past."



Source: (*******)

[BlackRain]

Most of the graves discovered to date correspond to one of five major atrocities perpetrated by the regime.

The 1983 attack against Kurdish citizens belonging to the Barzani tribe, 8,000 of whom were rounded up by the regime in northern Iraq and executed in deserts at great distances from their homes.
The 1988 Anfal campaign, during which as many as 182,000 people disappeared. Most of the men were separated from their families and were executed in deserts in the west and southwest of Iraq. The remains of some of their wives and children have also been found in mass graves.
Chemical attacks against Kurdish villages from 1986 to 1988, including the Halabja attack, when the Iraqi Air Force dropped sarin, VX and tabun chemical agents on the civilian population, killing 5,000 people immediately and causing long-term medical problems, related deaths, and birth defects among the progeny of thousands more.
The 1991 massacre of Iraqi Shi’a Muslims after the Shi’a uprising at the end of the Gulf war, in which tens of thousands of soldiers and civilians in such regions as Basra and Al-Hillah were killed.
The 1991 Kurdish massacre, which targeted civilians and soldiers who fought for autonomy in northern Iraq after the Gulf war.

Source: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm

[oldsoak]

All of Obi's post are troll flame posts. Any reason the mods don't ban him? Also, his name is spelled " Blair."

Its a deliberate misspelling to emphasise the liar - an attempt to irritate.

Funny, theres plenty of Shiite Iraqis to whom mass graves are not a figment of the imagination. Also, where possible, relatives of the victims did attempt to recover their bodies and give them a decent burial according to their customs and beliefs - this is quite important to ME cultures. Theres quite a few victims in the public cemetaries as well as those in unknown graves

[Midtown]

OB Kenobi is definitely mentally ill.

Since he will not believe Blair or Bush or the Iraqi victims regarding Saddam's mass graves; here is visual proof:



http://massgraves.info/13.jpg

http://massgraves.info/26.jpg

Goto to this website in Arabic: http://massgraves.info/

I DO SO BELIVE YOUR DUMB ASS WAS JUST SERVED OB KENOBI

[Kitsune]

He219 wrote:
Now I've heard it all; 'Bosnian and Iraqi Mass Grave claims untrue' ...

Some people also claim the Holocaust never happened.



Hehe, no you didn't. In Japan there is actually a small ultraright movement that claims that Japan won WWII. The defeat is, according to them, just a propaganda trick. The American troops stationed in Japan were originally not an occupation force but POWs who had to work for the victorious Japanese.
This is actually true. And now you have heard it all. ;)

[OB Kenobi]

Now I've heard it all; 'Bosnian and Iraqi Mass Grave claims untrue' ...

Some people also claim the Holocaust never happened.

:cantbeli:

Kosovo, not Bosnia. Where are the mass graves in Kosovo?

The Iraq claims are also untrue and if you have any evidence to the contrary maybe you should let the Pentagon know about it!

Bush and Blair got caught lying, and now they're busted. Maybe they were set up, but that would be one hell of a conspiracy, wouldn't it? 10 years of false intel? Usually the simplest explanation is the correct one, and the simplest explanation is that Bush and Blair pushed for this war despite a lack of conclusive evidence.

Some call this "faith-based intelligence." Sort of like believing in Santa Claus.

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

I don't even bother to read anything OB posts anymore. It's gotten so ridiculous.

[cut]

according to the best estimates that The Observer has been able to obtain, around 5,000 bodies.

No hard facts I see.

you can tell that from the title ('untrue') the fact that in inverted commas tells you it's not strickly factual from the start.

[He219]

Kosovo, not Bosnia. Where are the mass graves in Kosovo?
Some call this "faith-based intelligence." Sort of like believing in Santa Claus.

http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3686/3686061.jpg

These May 15, 1999 and June 3, 1999 pictures provided by the U.S. Department of Defense ,Wednesday, June 9, 1999, shows suspected mass grave tampering near Izbica, Kosovo. As some 50,000 international peacekeepers prepare to enter Kosovo, NATO will have the opportunity to take full measure of alleged atrocities.
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3693/3693830.jpg

The remains of charred bodies lay on the floor of a crumbling house in Koronica, in western Kosovo, Tuesday, June 15, 1999. Three more mass graves were reportedly discovered Tuesday in western Kosovo, the second straight day of atrocities being unearthed by NATO forces. The graves, just off the road leading through Koronica, six miles west of Djakovica, hold as many as 150 bodies, residents said
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3703/3703700.jpg

A female interpreter points at the posts marking a possible mass grave in the Kosovo town of Podujevo, Friday, June 18, 1999. Around her are British NATO soldiers who swept into the town early Friday morning. The rough graves are in an overgrown area of an Albanian cemetery, next to the railway track. There are approximately 19 marked pieces of wood but up to 35 earth mounds in total. Some of the graves are shallow and have sunk with the recent rain. In one of the graves there is a child's shoe lying near the marker.
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3715/3715841.jpg


German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer leaves the site of the Velika Krusa mass grave, west of Prizren, Wednesday, June 23, 1999, where dozens of remains believed to be massacred ethnic Albanians were found. Fischer visited the mass grave together with German Secretary of Defense Rudolf Scharping during a one-day trip to Kosovo.
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/4683/4683498.jpg

The chief prosecutor of the International War Crimes Tribunal for former Yugoslavia, Carla del Ponte, center, visits a mass grave site in the village of Qirez, central Kosovo on Wednesday, June 21, 2000. Del Ponte is on the second day of her visit to Kosovo where she met with UN and KFOR officials as well as Albanian and Serb community leaders
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3747/3747594.jpg

Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) soldiers stand at attention in the foreground as mourners look on at the graves of sixty-four men, women and children reportedly killed by Serb forces at a mass burial and memorial service in a field near the village of Bela Crkva in western Kosovo, Monday, July 5, 1999. The bodies were found in mass graves in and around Bela Crkva.
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3747/3747627.jpg
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3747/3747859.jpg

Chairman of the International Committee on Missing Persons, former Sen. Bob Dole, is escorted by Spanish and Italian NATO soldiers as he visits a mass grave near the northwestern Kosovo town of Istok, Monday, July 5, 1999. Dole is on a three-day visit to Kosovo and Macedonia.
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3907/3907432.jpg

Ethnic Albanian farmer Abedin Ademi trys to look under a tarpaulin on a mound of earth at a site in the village Ljubidza, near Prizren, 45 miles south west of Kosovo's capital, Pristina, Thursday, September 2, 1999. It is believed that human bodies or their clothing lie under the sheet after having been unearthed by investigators. Britain's foreign minister Robin Cook said, Thursday, that British forensics experts found 50 bodies at this site
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3847/3847762.jpg

Mourners prepare to lower the first of 75 coffins into graves for reburial in the Kosovo village of Velika Krusa, 55 miles south west of the capital, Pristina, Yugoslavia, Thursday, August 12, 1999. The dead were ethnic Albanian men, women and children killed and dumped in mass graves during the Serb crackdown on Kosovo Albanians
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/3923/3923962.jpg

An Austrian police forensic expert, left, working for the International War Crimes Tribunal places a body part into a body bag held by ethnic Albanians at a mass grave in the southern Kosovo village of Kotlina, Thursday, Sept. 9, 1999. The 22 massacred villagers were reportedly shot by Yugoslav troops and dumped into two abandoned wells.
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/4820/4820065.jpg

British forensic experts with the help of NATO-led peacekeepers, exhume bodies from a mass grave in village of Makovc, 9 kilometers (6 miles) north of Pristina, Kosovo, Tuesday, August 8, 2000. The victims are alleged to have been killed by the Serbian army and buried in mass graves during last year's crisis in Kosovo.
http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/5910/5910331.jpg

A group of journalists look at a mass grave which used to contain more than 30 bodies of ethnic Kosovo Albanians, including civilians, at a police compound in Belgrade suburb of Batajnica, on Monday, July 9, 2001. Serbian police have accused former president Slobodan Milosevic of ordering that bodies of Kosovo victims be buried in Serbia proper. About 800 bodies are believed buried in several mass graves.

To answer your question; "Yes! There too .."
:slap:



The Iraq claims are also untrue
Do you want me to draw you a picture?

[OB Kenobi]

All of Obi's post are troll flame posts. Any reason the mods don't ban him? Also, his name is spelled " Blair."

Its a deliberate misspelling to emphasise the liar - an attempt to irritate.

Funny, theres plenty of Shiite Iraqis to whom mass graves are not a figment of the imagination. Also, where possible, relatives of the victims did attempt to recover their bodies and give them a decent burial according to their customs and beliefs - this is quite important to ME cultures. Theres quite a few victims in the public cemetaries as well as those in unknown graves

More faith-based intelligence. Where's the proof? This is precisely my point, the Kosovars spread the same lies. "Oh Milosevic is killing millions of us, look we're all dead! Milosevic is the new Hitler, he's trying to exterminate all Muslims! We love America! Send us $$$!"

This kind of thing leads to no good, no matter how good the intentions supposedly are. This is why we have a system of checks and balances that is supposed to prevent our leaders from going to war for their own personal reasons. Bush lied to Congress and the UN to get his half-baked war, he misled the world, and Bliar helped him do it by backing those lies. Not a single shred of evidence has emerged to confirm those claims, as time goes by just the opposite has happened.

As for those Osama comments. Explain to me how saying Bliar lied about Kosovo, or Iraq, has anything to do with Osama?

[Fintin]

about Kosovo, or Iraq?


i smell horse ****...but maybe we need to wait for tanes oppinion...he is the resident cowboy after all...it could be bull****

[He219]

All of Obi's post are troll flame posts. Any reason the mods don't ban him? Also, his name is spelled " Blair."

Its a deliberate misspelling to emphasise the liar - an attempt to irritate.

Funny, theres plenty of Shiite Iraqis to whom mass graves are not a figment of the imagination. Also, where possible, relatives of the victims did attempt to recover their bodies and give them a decent burial according to their customs and beliefs - this is quite important to ME cultures. Theres quite a few victims in the public cemetaries as well as those in unknown graves

More faith-based intelligence. Where's the proof?

O.K. numbnuts, 32 pages of proof (http://editorial.*****images.com/source/cfw/FrameSet.aspx?s=ImagesAdvancedSearchState|2|15||0||1|||7%2f19%2f2004|4%2f19%2f2003|0|0|0||0||7|-1|Mass+grave+iraq|0||0|0|0&p=0&pk=4) ...

http://cache.*****images.com/thumb/1970179.jpg?x=x&a=1970179&b=afp&t=1http://cache.*****images.com/thumb/1970203.jpg?x=x&a=1970203&b=afp&t=1http://cache.*****images.com/thumb/1998136.jpg?x=x&a=1998136&b=editorial&t=1http://cache.*****images.com/thumb/2032062.jpg?x=x&a=2032062&b=editorial&t=1

[5jumpchump]

Now I've heard it all; 'Bosnian and Iraqi Mass Grave claims untrue' ...

Some people also claim the Holocaust never happened.

:cantbeli:

Kosovo, not Bosnia. Where are the mass graves in Kosovo?

The Iraq claims are also untrue and if you have any evidence to the contrary maybe you should let the Pentagon know about it!

Bush and Blair got caught lying, and now they're busted. Maybe they were set up, but that would be one hell of a conspiracy, wouldn't it? 10 years of false intel? Usually the simplest explanation is the correct one, and the simplest explanation is that Bush and Blair pushed for this war despite a lack of conclusive evidence.

Some call this "faith-based intelligence." Sort of like believing in Santa Claus.

OK we lied , i give up . Queation is WTF are YOU going to do about it ?
Not a damn thing rofl

[OB Kenobi]

Kosovo, not Bosnia. Where are the mass graves in Kosovo?
Some call this "faith-based intelligence." Sort of like believing in Santa Claus.

The Iraq claims are also untrue
Do you want me to draw you a picture?

Nice photos. Very emotional. Plays well in the media.

Now how about a body count. Bliar claimed "At least 100,000 Kosovar men of fighting age" were killed.

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3818c7645e0e.htm
http://g2mil.com/Jun2004.htm
http://www.insightmag.com/news/1999/12/06/FairComment/Was-Serbian.genocide.In.Kosovo.Just.Propaganda.To.Start.An.Air.War-215573.shtml

[American Patriot]

:sniff: :sniff: Smells like UN pussy.

[Marsuitor]

Kosovo, not Bosnia. Where are the mass graves in Kosovo?

Sort of graphic, human remains:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/431_1090262625_imga0131.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/431_1090262658_div1.jpg

OB, we uncoverd and guarded this site for two days, not so ignorant arrseholes like you could come here and claim this never happened. But to make sure we did our part to make those responsible get caught. I rest my case!
Btw, these are photos taken by the UNMIK police during investigation.

[OB Kenobi]

:sniff: :sniff: Smells like UN pussy.

Simply brilliant! You always manage to add something really "special" to any discussion.

[OB Kenobi]

Kosovo, not Bosnia. Where are the mass graves in Kosovo?

Sort of graphic, human remains:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/431_1090262625_imga0131.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/431_1090262658_div1.jpg

OB, we uncoverd and guarded this site for two days, not so ignorant arrseholes like you could come here and claim this never happened. But to make sure we did our part to make those responsible get caught. I rest my case!
Btw, these are photos taken by the UNMIK police during investigation.

Wow, a photo of a skull.

One of you here prove Bliar's claim that "At least 100,000" were killed and I'll kiss everyone's ass on this forum.

Otherwise don't post any more of these tearjerker photos of Clinton's dead Islamic terrorists, *cough*, I mean "freedom fighters."

http://www.pvda.be/images/Solidair/sol3601/p02Albright_Thaci.jpg

[BlackRain]

Based on OB Kenobi's refusal to accept visual proof or 1st hand accounts of those who bore witness to the mass graves in these two countries, I can only come to a few conclusion about OB Kenobi:

1) He just enjoys being a troll and likes to throw unsupportable bombs.

OR

2) He is extremely ignornant or ill-informed or poorly educated or mentally defective.

OR

3) A combination of above.


Either way, he is just a waste of time. This thread removes any doubt about his veracity or true intentions.

[Marsuitor]

Wow, a photo of a skull.

One of you here prove Bliar's claim that "At least 100,000" were killed and I'll kiss everyone's ass on this forum.

Otherwise don't post any more of these tearjerker photos of Clinton's dead Islamic terrorists, *cough*, I mean "freedom fighters."

http://www.pvda.be/images/Solidair/sol3601/p02Albright_Thaci.jpg
Btw, did you see the documentary "The Valley - The Killing Fields Of Kosovo" yet? Suggest you do.

[budanski]

Btw, did you see the documentary "The Valley - The Killing Fields Of Kosovo" yet? Suggest you do.
Don't bother unless its a Michael Moore shockumentary.

[American Patriot]

According to this article Blair is a ****ing liar which has nothing to do with the fact that Kosovo was a humanitarian disaster and that Iraqi Freedom was part of the GWoT and was also one of the most successful military operations in the history of warfare. Apples and oranges.

[OB Kenobi]

According to this article Blair is a f*** liar which has nothing to do with the fact that Kosovo was a humanitarian disaster and that Iraqi Freedom was part of the GWoT and was also one of the most successful military operations in the history of warfare. Apples and oranges.

Yes, that's what it said. Except Bliar also claimed that there are 400,000 found in mass graves in Iraq. Read the first post in this thread again.

I'm going to say it again. Does anyone here have proof that "At least 100,000 Islamic Albanians" were massacred in Kosovo, or that 400,000 dead were found in mass graves in Iraq?

The mistake you're making is that you act like this is *me* making these claims, when it is something backed up by dozens of news sources and investigators. Do you honestly think that someone would write that Bliar was lying if it could be proven that he wasn't? The fact is, once again, Bliar has lied his way through two wars now.

I'm not even going to get into the CIA-KLA regime change thing, the real reason there was a war in Kosovo, that would definitely be too much for some of you to handle at this point. So pretend I never said it. :P

[SFontaine]

Hey it's ONLY 5,000 dead. Noone important at all.

Give it a break, Ob. He got the initial estimates wrong and admitted so.
I mean you guys need to get some real material.

You guys act like Tony Blair and President Bush's only intentions in Iraq where to crack open Iraqi skulls and feast, vampire like, upon the sweet sweet oil within.

Fact is Ob you're just some "Jedi Master" sitting at home being a **** disturber on the internet, thinking you know all the answers. Anything anti-Coalition comes out and your kind posts it on the forums instantly, and anything pro-American, pro-Coalition you guys try to debunk best you can with stupid insults or dumbassed conspiracy theories (HALLIBURTON HALLIBURTON! FREE MASONS! OIL!). It get's old. Right now all any of us can do is sit and wait.

Iraq is at present the freest country in the Middle East, and can only get better. 5-10 years down the line Iraq will probably be an example of nationbuilding done right.. Bush will be commended for staying the course, freeing two countries and turning them both into democracies that are a shining example to the Iran's and Syria's of the world, ignoring all the critics and naysayers who didn't have the testicular fortitutde to hold out. Hell Saddam's downfall has already attributed to one madman disarming. Who knows what other effects it'll have on the world and the region?


P.S.

I'm not even going to get into the CIA-KLA regime change thing, the real reason there was a war in Kosovo, that would definitely be too much for some of you to handle at this point. So pretend I never said it.

Ohhhh! You have the big info none of us have! You is teh spy mastor. Good job, super sleuth
:roll:

[OB Kenobi]

Hey it's ONLY 5,000 dead. Noone important at all.

Not unusual at all for a conflict of this type. The trouble is that if you admit that's all that happened then the whole ethnic cleansing case goes out the window and those that pushed for the war look like they had alterior motives. Which they did, btw. The motive was to get rid of Milosevic by any means necessary, exactly what we are seeing in Iraq with Saddam.

No one would vote for that, so they had to invent all these lies to justify their conquests.


You guys act like Tony Blair and President Bush's only intentions in Iraq where to crack open Iraqi skulls and feast, vampire like, upon the sweet sweet oil within.

No, it's not just about oil.


Fact is Ob you're just some "Jedi Master" sitting at home being a **** disturber on the internet, thinking you know all the answers.

The fact is, you assume too much.


Iraq is at present the freest country in the Middle East, and can only get better. 5-10 years down the line Iraq will probably be an example of nationbuilding done right.. Bush will be commended for staying the course, freeing two countries and turning them both into democracies that are a shining example to the Iran's and Syria's of the world, ignoring all the critics and naysayers who didn't have the testicular fortitutde to hold out. Hell Saddam's downfall has already attributed to one madman disarming. Who knows what other effects it'll have on the world and the region?

Nice speech. But you know what? You're wrong.



P.S.

I'm not even going to get into the CIA-KLA regime change thing, the real reason there was a war in Kosovo, that would definitely be too much for some of you to handle at this point. So pretend I never said it.

Ohhhh! You have the big info none of us have! You is teh spy mastor. Good job, super sleuth
:roll:

Go back to playing with your X-box, junior.

[Macs.]

There is no "Iraq" !

[SFontaine]

Nice speech. But you know what? You're wrong.


Where can I get the same crystal ball that you have?

[Sayeret]

What's with you OB Kenobi?

You should be ashamed of yourself for posting such crap.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/legacyofterror.html


"We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

[Wilco]

There is no "Iraq" !

Genius! It is just a figment of our imagination and our soldiers aren't really being killed, it's all Hollywood.

It's getting to that point Macs, boy oh boy.

[He219]

^ Macs was being facetious, Wilco ...

.......... emulating OB's denialist tone!

;)

[bishop1]

Well, this is the first post ive really seen by OB and its pretty pathetic. No doubt a tree hugging liberal, or at least he has the traits, the ability to see true viable printed facts in front his face and still deny them and keep the argument coming is something inspired by Micheal Moore type liberalism, although most liberals are somewhat astute, he lacks that as well, so who knows.
But appearently to him 5,000 innocent deaths isnt alot and not a very big deal, and since it is so few and no one misses them, why couldnt it be 5001, because whats one more, especially if its an ignortant dumbass?

What do we have to do to get him banned?

[moughoun]

Hand's up anyone who has personal knowlage or had friend's serve in Kosovo and saw what the place was like....hand shoot's up.............OB, you know anyone who can give first hand knowlage to back up those claim's?

[bison3255]

the kla is an islamist terrorist group, nothing else to it

[Uncle Sam]

OB Kenobi - You're what they call a "puppet"

[jmatucd]

why is ob allowed to post? he cannot accept anything as the truth, he should not be allowed to operate on these boards if he will not use facts as opposed to propogating his lies on mere supposition

[Seiyuuki]

"1 death is a tragedy, 1,000 deaths is a statistic." - Stalin...(Is it 1,000 or a bigger number in the quote?)

[moughoun]

"1 death is a tragedy, 1,000 deaths is a statistic." - Stalin...(Is it 1,000 or a bigger number in the quote?)
I think it was a million :|

[usa320]

Would someone ban this bloody bufoon already?

Ive had enough of his crap.

Hes been spouting so much **** for the past 6 months that every single decent post is outweighed by 20 of his BS posts...

[Beowulf]

Bliar, who's that?

Oh you mean the Right Honourable Tony Blair, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Of course OB, I forgot you're better than all of the world's elected officials and can just insult them at will based upon....well nothing really.

On a side note: If this thread wasn't meant to be taken seriously(i.e. off topic) the name changing would be slightly less annoying. But you are trying to persuade ( I guess) by insulting, that's not usually very effective.

[usa320]

OB strikes me as the kind of person who, regardless of who holds office, will complain about the government just for the sake of complaining.

[VorpalDoom]

someone needs a hug... come on everyone, group hug!

[Sayeret]

OB lives in his own little fantasy world.

[Raistlin]

"1 death is a tragedy, 1,000 deaths is a statistic." - Stalin...
I don't think Stalin actually said that.

[Seiyuuki]

"1 death is a tragedy, 1,000 deaths is a statistic." - Stalin...
I don't think Stalin actually said that.

I did a quick Google search, the actual thing, "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic," by Stalin.

[Raistlin]

When did he say that?

[OB Kenobi]

Tony Bliar lied. George Bush lied. You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't change the facts. Bush's time will be up soon whether he is re-elected or not. He is going to destroy himself one way or another, it is inevitable because he's a lying crook and he's gone too far, the world was watching this time.

http://www.fujichia.com/billboards/bush_lied_pirates.jpg
http://www.fujichia.com/billboards/fact_bush_lied.jpg
http://www.spofga.org/flag/2004/feb/images/gpu_2.jpg
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/presidents/george-hw-bush/read_my_lips_shrunk.jpghttp://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/9598/Presidential/bush-baseball.jpghttp://bootnewt.tripod.com/poppypuppet.jpg

[Royal]

OB, you're a prick. But hey, you know what I think of you anyway.

Blair's a liar! Hold the front page, tell me something we didn't know, he's a f**king politician - it's what we pay them for. Did 100,000 fighting age Kosovar Albanians die in Serb 'etnicko ciscenje', no probably not. Were thousands of civilians from both sides murdered. Yes. Have I seen the graves of more of them than I care to remember? Yes. Did we bomb the wrong side in Kosovo? Probably.

Was Sadaam a monster? Yes. Did he kill hudreds of thousands (if not millions) of civilians? Yes. Were we right to invade Iraq? IMHO no.

Difficult isn't it? No black and white, whether you're a Neocon or a bed wetting liberal...

[fantassin]

Quote Royal:


Did we bomb the wrong side in Kosovo? Probably.


Too bloody true.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Is OB confused about which man is the current US President? We all recognize that he has a terrible time separating facts from opinion, but I thought he at least was aware of which "Bush" is currently in the Oval Office. Oh well, par for the course I guess.

[Raistlin]

Words of wisdom, Royal.

[usa320]

Someone ban the fecking prick already.

[Sayeret]

Someone ban the fecking prick already.

I bet he goes around to a ton of forums spreading this propaganda.l

[Raistlin]

Someone ban the fecking prick already.
You're talking about OB, right?

[RavenW]

Someone ban the fecking prick already.
You're talking about OB, right?

He's just a moron. But it's interesting to see how the brains of left-wing guys work. I say fry him! ;) p-) woot

[Argyll]

My gut instinct says OB and Mustamoto are one and the same!! ;)

[Raistlin]

*cough*IP*cough* ?

[BarkingSquirrel]

Someone ban the fecking prick already.No way. Then we'd only have Secret Squirrel, and OBD left to laugh at. We'd be one stooge short.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Parasaur/d022.gif

[RavenW]

The best way I think is just ignore them.

People, who represent human and moral degredation should not be given that much attention. Let them believe what they want.

To try to establish dialogue is a Waste of Time.

e.g.
On every suggestion that the land is disputed and belongs to Jews no less than to Arabs, you'ld get only "Zig Heil!"... or "Free Palestine!"... well maybe "viva la France" p-)

[Elmo]

moral degredation


I have a suggestion: write your thesis on: "My Moral Supremacy" by RavenW, Introduction by God himself

Give it a rest, will ya?

[BarkingSquirrel]

I presume your introduction will be by Big Bird? :lol:

[OB Kenobi]

On every suggestion that the land is disputed and belongs to Jews no less than to Arabs, you'ld get only "Zig Heil!"... or "Free Palestine!"... well maybe "viva la France" p-)

On every criticism of Israel, we have to hear **** like the above. We heard it a thousand times. So what do you want to us to do? Do you want us to give you our blessing to exterminate the Palestinians? What?

[OB Kenobi]

My gut instinct says OB and Mustamoto are one and the same!! ;)

Last time I checked, I was still not Mustamoto.

[OB Kenobi]

Hand's up anyone who has personal knowlage or had friend's serve in Kosovo and saw what the place was like....hand shoot's up.............OB, you know anyone who can give first hand knowlage to back up those claim's?

I don't care if you or whoever was there saw some mass graves, you did not see 100,000 dead Albanians there, and that's a fact. It's a fact because not a single count by any organization on this planet has backed that 100,000 number, or anything remotely close to it.

How much more PROOF do you want? How about instead of the apologists on this forum patting each other on the back in every thread, THEY start providing some PROOF?

You hear that, apologists? Go ahead, someone show me the figures to back up Tony Bliar's and Clinton's claims... or Bush's for that matter.

Where are the 100,000 dead Albanians?
Where is the WMD?
Where's Bin Laden?
Who sent the Anthrax letters? :P

[cut]

*yawn*

[Sayeret]

I agree with RavenW that we need to just ignore this troll, OB Kenobi, however I believe I should address one thing he said.


Kerry got the liberal AND moderate vote, while Bush only won the conservative vote. Kerry also got 76% of the Jewish vote, which may send Sayaret, SeanAshi and the other Zionists on this forum into shock.

This may surprise you OB but I already knew that, probably because most of my family are Democrats and most of my Jewish friends are Democrats. One thing you fail to mention is that the Republicans got more Jewish votes this year than they usually do and that most of the Americans with a dual Israeli citizenship are Republicans.

The fact that you deny genocide just because you hate Bush shows really how low you are and I hope that the other people at this forum realize that.

[OB Kenobi]

*yawn*

*FART*

[OB Kenobi]

I agree with RavenW that we need to just ignore this troll, OB Kenobi, however I believe I should address one thing he said.

I think everyone is aware of your pro-Israeli leanings and why you are desperate to silence me at any opportunity. I'm sorry if you think that the world is obligated to worship Israel as the Holy Land, but a few billion people tend to disagree with that belief. I will gladly eat my pork chops and bacon, keep my lights on on Fridays, and the only Sabbath I observe is Black Sabbath.

Let me know if you find any proof of your God's existence, in the meantime, I will classify you in with the Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Asatru-whatever they're called and other loonies.




Kerry got the liberal AND moderate vote, while Bush only won the conservative vote. Kerry also got 76% of the Jewish vote, which may send Sayaret, SeanAshi and the other Zionists on this forum into shock.

This may surprise you OB but I already knew that, probably because most of my family are Democrats and most of my Jewish friends are Democrats. One thing you fail to mention is that the Republicans got more Jewish votes this year than they usually do and that most of the Americans with a dual Israeli citizenship are Republicans.

The fact that you deny genocide just because you hate Bush shows really how low you are and I hope that the other people at this forum realize that.

What genocide did I deny? Let me say it again, come up with some PROOF of this "genocide" and I won't question it anymore. But it has been proven that Bliar lied about the "genocide" in Kosovo, and he lied about it continuing in Iraq. In both cases, he took past incidents (Srebrenica for Kosovo, and the attacks on the Kurds and Iranians for post-Desert Storm genocide) and misrepresented them. It is precisely the same as Bush linking 9/11 and Al Qaeda to Saddam to get his war.

I'd also like to hear what you think of the genocide against the Kurds by Turkey, Iran, and Syria. You make it sound like this is something Saddam alone is responsible for.

[BarkingSquirrel]

Let me know if you find any proof of your God's existence, in the meantime, I will classify you in with the Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Asatru-whatever they're called and other loonies.If we're going down this road, then where's your proof that a god doesn't exist?

Or perhaps you would like to play the Double Standards game that you do so enjoy in your other threads.

[Paxaran]

As a New Yorker from Manhattan, I am appalled not only at OB Kenobi's rediculous statements, but his quote under his username, LOCATION: "Building a cold fusion reactor underneath the NYC subway system" is on the verge of treason if he is American and if not American, a statement worthy of a terrorist. Even if the damn fool does not know that cold fusion is not currently possible or necesarily explosive, the meaning of the statement is implied. As someone who has lost personal friends in the 9/11 event, one who jokes about the possibility such a "reactor" is as bad as anyone we are fighting in this war and his IP address should be recorded AND reported to the FBI and the NSA.

He is also insane. I meet and hear people like him every day in this city and I have learned to ignore such insane line of thought. It is hard, but I try. I have been reading posts in this site for 2 years now, joined 2 months ago and this topic is the first thing to make me get off my lazy ass and login and write something. Most people here are better much better writers than I and I appreciate a lot of the posts, good or bad. Forgive me if I am ranting.

OB is a defender of murderers.

[mocking_loudly_died]

As a New Yorker from Manhattan, I am appalled not only at OB Kenobi's rediculous statements, but his quote under his username, LOCATION: "Building a cold fusion reactor underneath the NYC subway system" is on the verge of treason if he is American and if not American, a statement worthy of a terrorist. Even if the damn fool does not know that cold fusion is not currently possible or necesarily explosive, the meaning of the statement is implied. As someone who has lost personal friends in the 9/11 event, one who jokes about the possibility such a "reactor" is as bad as anyone we are fighting in this war and his IP address should be recorded AND reported to the FBI and the NSA.

He is also insane. I meet and hear people like him every day in this city and I have learned to ignore such insane line of thought. It is hard, but I try. I have been reading posts in this site for 2 years now, joined 2 months ago and this topic is the first thing to make me get off my lazy ass and login and write something. Most people here are better much better writers than I and I appreciate a lot of the posts, good or bad. Forgive me if I am ranting.

OB is a defender of murderers.

Oh please, yeah - I'm a terrorist too. Awesome, please waste the FBI's time with complaints about people on forums.

"Then they said they hated bush.....then I was ridiculed...they must be terrorists!"

Another reason to randomly shoot strangers – more bullets for less plebs.

[OB Kenobi]

Let me know if you find any proof of your God's existence, in the meantime, I will classify you in with the Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Asatru-whatever they're called and other loonies.If we're going down this road, then where's your proof that a god doesn't exist?

Or perhaps you would like to play the Double Standards game that you do so enjoy in your other threads.

I said his God's existence, not the existence of a God, or some other still unexplainable supernatural force.

So, care to enlighten me about this double standards game I'm supposedly enjoying?

[Paxaran]

As a New Yorker from Manhattan, I am appalled not only at OB Kenobi's rediculous statements, but his quote under his username, LOCATION: "Building a cold fusion reactor underneath the NYC subway system" is on the verge of treason if he is American and if not American, a statement worthy of a terrorist. Even if the damn fool does not know that cold fusion is not currently possible or necesarily explosive, the meaning of the statement is implied. As someone who has lost personal friends in the 9/11 event, one who jokes about the possibility such a "reactor" is as bad as anyone we are fighting in this war and his IP address should be recorded AND reported to the FBI and the NSA.

He is also insane. I meet and hear people like him every day in this city and I have learned to ignore such insane line of thought. It is hard, but I try. I have been reading posts in this site for 2 years now, joined 2 months ago and this topic is the first thing to make me get off my lazy ass and login and write something. Most people here are better much better writers than I and I appreciate a lot of the posts, good or bad. Forgive me if I am ranting.

OB is a defender of murderers.

Oh please, yeah - I'm a terrorist too. Awesome, please waste the FBI's time with complaints about people on forums.

"Then they said they hated bush.....then I was ridiculed...they must be terrorists!"

Another reason to randomly shoot strangers – more bullets for less
plebs.

I never said anything about Bush. And just like OB you seem to take things quite literally. That's the problem with you people. Things are not that cut and dry. And though I am aware that OB is not really building a bomb under NYC, the simple statement is offencive as f@#k. As for more bullets, yes please. And not for stangers, though perhaps, in agreement with you, for fewer plebs.

[OB Kenobi]

As a New Yorker from Manhattan, I am appalled not only at OB Kenobi's rediculous statements, but his quote under his username, LOCATION: "Building a cold fusion reactor underneath the NYC subway system" is on the verge of treason if he is American and if not American, a statement worthy of a terrorist. Even if the damn fool does not know that cold fusion is not currently possible or necesarily explosive, the meaning of the statement is implied. As someone who has lost personal friends in the 9/11 event, one who jokes about the possibility such a "reactor" is as bad as anyone we are fighting in this war and his IP address should be recorded AND reported to the FBI and the NSA.

rofl

Who is this? 5JumpChimp again? Mods, check this posters IP.

These apologists are getting so desperate they're even making duplicate accounts to attack me. I like this part especially:


Even if the damn fool does not know that cold fusion is not currently possible or necesarily explosive, the meaning of the statement is implied.

Now, just what the hell is that supposed to mean!? Maybe I was going to save America by eliminating it's dependence on terrorist oil, dumbass! rofl

Or maybe I wasn't? :-*$

[BarkingSquirrel]

Let me know if you find any proof of your God's existence, in the meantime, I will classify you in with the Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Asatru-whatever they're called and other loonies.If we're going down this road, then where's your proof that a god doesn't exist?

Or perhaps you would like to play the Double Standards game that you do so enjoy in your other threads.

I said his God's existence, not the existence of a God, or some other still unexplainable supernatural force.

So, care to enlighten me about this double standards game I'm supposedly enjoying?You asked him to prove his god exists. You gave no evidence to prove that his didn't exist. I know complete and utter denial is your way of life, but I'm sure even you can see the double standard.

[Secret Squirrel]

Let me know if you find any proof of your God's existence, in the meantime, I will classify you in with the Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Asatru-whatever they're called and other loonies.If we're going down this road, then where's your proof that a god doesn't exist?

Or perhaps you would like to play the Double Standards game that you do so enjoy in your other threads.

I said his God's existence, not the existence of a God, or some other still unexplainable supernatural force.

So, care to enlighten me about this double standards game I'm supposedly enjoying?You asked him to prove his god exists. You gave no evidence to prove that his didn't exist. I know complete and utter denial is your way of life, but I'm sure even you can see the double standard.

Why would you try to disprove something that hasnt been proven? That's like starting at square one just to get back to square one when if you just stopped at the beginning, you're already there.

[BarkingSquirrel]

Why would you prove something that hasn't been disproven? Works boths way. Well unless your a hypocrite. That explains why you and OB only see it one way.

[Secret Squirrel]

Why would you prove something that hasn't been disproven? Works boths way. Well unless your a hypocrite. That explains why you and OB only see it one way.

You prove something that hasnt been proven because for most normal and rational people, proving something is the first step to accepting it. If you cant prove something, why even bother with it? But nice try though. ;)

[BarkingSquirrel]

According to your logic, in a trial the defense has to prove he didn't do it, and the prosection is only there to keep the chair warm and nothing more. If he has to prove his side, you have to prove yours. Simple as that.

[Secret Squirrel]

According to your logic, in a trial the defense has to prove he didn't do it, and the prosection is only there to keep the chair warm and nothing more. If he has to prove his side, you have to prove yours. Simple as that.

Correction, before the trial begins, someone has to be arrested and charged based on sufficent evidence. Thus a certain level of "proving" has to be met before the trial process begins. Once the trial begins the prosecution has the burden of proof. ;)

[BarkingSquirrel]

Changing the subject so soon? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

[Secret Squirrel]

Changing the subject so soon? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Just deconstructing your agruments. ;) You wanted to use a trial example so I decided to start at the beginning. Unless you think trials magically happen after a crime is committed? ;) And again, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. If they cant prove their case (ie. insufficent evidence), then the matter wont make it to trial. If we apply this to the God question, there has to be a certain level of rational proof obtained before the issue can be discussed. ;) You see, the existence of God cannot be proven because religion rests on faith. And faith is an irrational argument because you cant prove faith; you either believe or you dont believe. And when you consider that faith is a personal issue, asking someone to believe something you have faith in, is asking someone to share in your irrational belief.

[vampireuk]

Does anybody else get the impression that OB whips it out and starts jerking off everytime a coalition soldier is killed?

[BarkingSquirrel]

Changing the subject so soon? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Just deconstructing your agruments. ;) You wanted to use a trial example so I decided to start at the beginning. Unless you think trials magically happen after a crime is committed? ;) And again, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. If they cant prove their case (ie. insufficent evidence), then the matter wont make it to trial. If we apply this to the God question, there has to be a certain level of rational proof obtained before the issue can be discussed. ;)You went off on a tangent "deconstructing" a hypothetical situation used in an analogy. Good job!

Wanna talk about reasonable doubt to support the existence of a god? Okay, where did everything come from? The "Big Bang"? Although an unprovable theory itself, let's assume it was true. What caused the big bang? What created the materials used during the big bang? What created the creator of those materials? More importantly can you prove it?

Where would you like to try and divert the topic now?

[mocking_loudly_died]

As a New Yorker from Manhattan, I am appalled not only at OB Kenobi's rediculous statements, but his quote under his username, LOCATION: "Building a cold fusion reactor underneath the NYC subway system" is on the verge of treason if he is American and if not American, a statement worthy of a terrorist. Even if the damn fool does not know that cold fusion is not currently possible or necesarily explosive, the meaning of the statement is implied. As someone who has lost personal friends in the 9/11 event, one who jokes about the possibility such a "reactor" is as bad as anyone we are fighting in this war and his IP address should be recorded AND reported to the FBI and the NSA.

He is also insane. I meet and hear people like him every day in this city and I have learned to ignore such insane line of thought. It is hard, but I try. I have been reading posts in this site for 2 years now, joined 2 months ago and this topic is the first thing to make me get off my lazy ass and login and write something. Most people here are better much better writers than I and I appreciate a lot of the posts, good or bad. Forgive me if I am ranting.

OB is a defender of murderers.

Oh please, yeah - I'm a terrorist too. Awesome, please waste the FBI's time with complaints about people on forums.

"Then they said they hated bush.....then I was ridiculed...they must be terrorists!"

Another reason to randomly shoot strangers – more bullets for less
plebs.

I never said anything about Bush. And just like OB you seem to take things quite literally. That's the problem with you people. Things are not that cut and dry. And though I am aware that OB is not really building a bomb under NYC, the simple statement is offencive as f@#k. As for more bullets, yes please. And not for stangers, though perhaps, in agreement with you, for fewer plebs.

Well n00b, don't align me with the rabid left -it just ****s me no end when people can't fight back on forums and resort to complete bollocks aka reporting people to authorities in regards to alleged text dissention.

If you don't agree with OB fight him with factual information - only little bitchs take it offline.

[Secret Squirrel]

Changing the subject so soon? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Just deconstructing your agruments. ;) You wanted to use a trial example so I decided to start at the beginning. Unless you think trials magically happen after a crime is committed? ;) And again, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. If they cant prove their case (ie. insufficent evidence), then the matter wont make it to trial. If we apply this to the God question, there has to be a certain level of rational proof obtained before the issue can be discussed. ;)You went off on a tangent "deconstructing" a hypothetical situation used in an analogy. Good job!

Wanna talk about reasonable doubt to support the existence of a god? Okay, where did everything come from? The "Big Bang"? Although an unprovable theory itself, let's assume it was true. What caused the big bang? What created the materials used during the big bang? What created the creator of those materials? More importantly can you prove it?

Where would you like to try and divert the topic now?

Divert a theory based discussion that involved elucidation? :| Yes I ripped apart your analogy and you quickly abandoned it. I guess considering that you believe that discussions on this forum are games, it means that I won that game? ;) There's a number of theories that attempt to explain where everything came from and how we have arrived where we are. And none can be proven to be a 100% true. However, there are basics of logic and rationality for each discussion which support various arguments. But when you speak of "God" you have to have faith that God exists. Someone can tell me that God exists. And I can say, "prove it" and they simply cant prove God's existence because their argument is based on faith. And again, faith is irrational. ;)

[BarkingSquirrel]

I have not abandoned the demand that you back up your own arguments and quit being a hypocrite, or shut the f**k up. You continue to demand for proof that a god exists, while continuing to dodge the demands placed on you. That guy can't prove a god exists, and you sure as hell can't prove one doesn't exist. You have no grounds to try and win an argument by asking the impossible(because you have no other way to win), knowing full well you can't do it either.

One would think you'd have the grey matter to know that Theory does not constitute Proof. But as you would say: Nice try though ;)

[Paxaran]

As a New Yorker from Manhattan, I am appalled not only at OB Kenobi's rediculous statements, but his quote under his username, LOCATION: "Building a cold fusion reactor underneath the NYC subway system" is on the verge of treason if he is American and if not American, a statement worthy of a terrorist. Even if the damn fool does not know that cold fusion is not currently possible or necesarily explosive, the meaning of the statement is implied. As someone who has lost personal friends in the 9/11 event, one who jokes about the possibility such a "reactor" is as bad as anyone we are fighting in this war and his IP address should be recorded AND reported to the FBI and the NSA.

He is also insane. I meet and hear people like him every day in this city and I have learned to ignore such insane line of thought. It is hard, but I try. I have been reading posts in this site for 2 years now, joined 2 months ago and this topic is the first thing to make me get off my lazy ass and login and write something. Most people here are better much better writers than I and I appreciate a lot of the posts, good or bad. Forgive me if I am ranting.

OB is a defender of murderers.

Oh please, yeah - I'm a terrorist too. Awesome, please waste the FBI's time with complaints about people on forums.

"Then they said they hated bush.....then I was ridiculed...they must be terrorists!"

Another reason to randomly shoot strangers – more bullets for less
plebs.

I never said anything about Bush. And just like OB you seem to take things quite literally. That's the problem with you people. Things are not that cut and dry. And though I am aware that OB is not really building a bomb under NYC, the simple statement is offencive as f@#k. As for more bullets, yes please. And not for stangers, though perhaps, in agreement with you, for fewer plebs.

Well n00b, don't align me with the rabid left -it just ****s me no end when people can't fight back on forums and resort to complete bollocks aka reporting people to authorities in regards to alleged text dissention.

If you don't agree with OB fight him with factual information - only little bitchs take it offline.

Good point.

[Secret Squirrel]

I have not abandoned the demand that you back up your own arguments and quit being a hypocrite, or shut the f**k up. You continue to demand for proof that a god exists, while continuing to dodge the demands placed on you. That guy can't prove a god exists, and you sure as hell can't prove one doesn't exist. You have no grounds to try and win an argument by asking the impossible(because you have no other way to win), knowing full well you can't do it either.

One would think you'd have the grey matter to know that Theory does not constitute Proof. But as you would say: Nice try though ;)

Again, why would you even begin to discuss something if you cant establish at least a minimal level of proof that the subject is worth discussing? You either believe in God or you dont believe. You either have faith that God exists or you dont have faith. But again, why disprove something that hasnt been proven? ;) Oh and nice try though. rofl

[usa320]

Shouldnt you be battering down for the impending assault secret squirrel?

[Sir Zach of R.]

Shouldnt you be battering down for the impending assault secret squirrel?

Ooooh, that's a zinger. USA230 gets the zinger of the day award.

[Secret Squirrel]

Shouldnt you be battering down for the impending assault secret squirrel?

Ooooh, that's a zinger. USA230 gets the zinger of the day award.

It never ceases to amaze me how simplistic some people want their world. rofl

[Sir Zach of R.]

I'm just trying to not be serious. I slept peacefully for the first time last night, and I'm a very, very happy camper, whatever the hell that is.

[usa320]

It never ceases to amaze me how simplistic some people want their world

It never ceases to amaze me how twisted some people's worlds are...

[Secret Squirrel]

It never ceases to amaze me how simplistic some people want their world

It never ceases to amaze me how twisted some people's worlds are...

Welcome to reality, where merely knowing if something is good or bad (or even using those simplistic labels) isnt enough to deal with it either permanently or effectively.

[Haiw]

My gut instinct says OB and Mustamoto are one and the same!! ;)
Nope...definately not.