PDA

View Full Version : The Conservative Case for Gay Marriage



Parx400
01-11-2010, 06:27 PM
Together with my good friend and occasional courtroom adversary David Boies, I am attempting to persuade a federal court to invalidate California's Proposition 8—the voter-approved measure that overturned California's constitutional right to marry a person of the same ***.

(http://ad.doubleclick.net/click%3Bh=v8/391f/3/0/%2a/l%3B216091290%3B0-0%3B0%3B32930029%3B4307-300/250%3B32417172/32435048/1%3Bu%3Do%2A_5bCS_5dv1_7c4A0DDE4B00002D83_2dA290B6C00000E05_5bCE_5d%3B%7Esscs%3D%3fhttp://twitter.com/newsweek)


My involvement in this case has generated a certain degree of consternation among conservatives. How could a politically active, lifelong Republican, a veteran of the Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush administrations, challenge the "traditional" definition of marriage and press for an "activist" interpretation of the Constitution to create another "new" constitutional right?
My answer to this seeming conundrum rests on a lifetime of exposure to persons of different backgrounds, histories, viewpoints, and intrinsic characteristics, and on my rejection of what I see as superficially appealing but ultimately false perceptions about our Constitution and its protection of equality and fundamental rights.
Many of my fellow conservatives have an almost knee-jerk hostility toward gay marriage. This does not make sense, because same-*** unions promote the values conservatives prize. Marriage is one of the basic building blocks of our neighborhoods and our nation. At its best, it is a stable bond between two individuals who work to create a loving household and a social and economic partnership. We encourage couples to marry because the commitments they make to one another provide benefits not only to themselves but also to their families and communities. Marriage requires thinking beyond one's own needs. It transforms two individuals into a union based on shared aspirations, and in doing so establishes a formal investment in the well-being of society. The fact that individuals who happen to be gay want to share in this vital social institution is evidence that conservative ideals enjoy widespread acceptance. Conservatives should celebrate this, rather than lament it.

Legalizing same-*** marriage would also be a recognition of basic American principles, and would represent the culmination of our nation's commitment to equal rights. It is, some have said, the last major civil-rights milestone yet to be surpassed in our two-century struggle to attain the goals we set for this nation at its formation.
This bedrock American principle of equality is central to the political and legal convictions of Republicans, Democrats, liberals, and conservatives alike. The dream that became America began with the revolutionary concept expressed in the Declaration of Independence in words that are among the most noble and elegant ever written: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Sadly, our nation has taken a long time to live up to the promise of equality. In 1857, the Supreme Court held that an African-American could not be a citizen. During the ensuing Civil War, Abraham Lincoln eloquently reminded the nation of its found-ing principle: "our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
At the end of the Civil War, to make the elusive promise of equality a reality, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution added the command that "no State É shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person É the equal protection of the laws."
Subsequent laws and court decisions have made clear that equality under the law extends to persons of all races, religions, and places of origin. What better way to make this national aspiration complete than to apply the same protection to men and women who differ from others only on the basis of their ****** orientation? I cannot think of a single reason—and have not heard one since I undertook this venture—for continued discrimination against decent, hardworking members of our society on that basis.
Various federal and state laws have accorded certain rights and privileges to gay and lesbian couples, but these protections vary dramatically at the state level, and nearly universally deny true equality to gays and lesbians who wish to marry. The very idea of marriage is basic to recognition as equals in our society; any status short of that is inferior, unjust, and unconstitutional.
The United States Supreme Court has repeatedly held that marriage is one of the most fundamental rights that we have as Americans under our Constitution. It is an expression of our desire to create a social partnership, to live and share life's joys and burdens with the person we love, and to form a lasting bond and a social identity. The Supreme Court has said that marriage is a part of the Constitution's protections of liberty, privacy, freedom of association, and spiritual identification. In short, the right to marry helps us to define ourselves and our place in a community. Without it, there can be no true equality under the law.
It is true that marriage in this nation traditionally has been regarded as a relationship exclusively between a man and a woman, and many of our nation's multiple religions define marriage in precisely those terms. But while the Supreme Court has always previously considered marriage in that context, the underlying rights and liberties that marriage embodies are not in any way confined to hetero******s.
Marriage is a civil bond in this country as well as, in some (but hardly all) cases, a religious sacrament. It is a relationship recognized by governments as providing a privileged and respected status, entitled to the state's support and benefits. The California Supreme Court described marriage as a "union unreservedly approved and favored by the community." Where the state has accorded official sanction to a relationship and provided special benefits to those who enter into that relationship, our courts have insisted that withholding that status requires powerful justifications and may not be arbitrarily denied.
What, then, are the justifications for California's decision in Proposition 8 to withdraw access to the institution of marriage for some of its citizens on the basis of their ****** orientation? The reasons I have heard are not very persuasive.
The explanation mentioned most often is tradition. But simply because something has always been done a certain way does not mean that it must always remain that way. Otherwise we would still have segregated schools and debtors' prisons. Gays and lesbians have always been among us, forming a part of our society, and they have lived as couples in our neighborhoods and communities. For a long time, they have experienced discrimination and even persecution; but we, as a society, are starting to become more tolerant, accepting, and understanding. California and many other states have allowed gays and lesbians to form domestic partnerships (or civil unions) with most of the rights of married hetero******s. Thus, gay and lesbian individuals are now permitted to live together in state-sanctioned relationships. It therefore seems anomalous to cite "tradition" as a justification for withholding the status of marriage and thus to continue to label those relationships as less worthy, less sanctioned, or less legitimate.
The second argument I often hear is that traditional marriage furthers the state's interest in procreation—and that opening marriage to same-*** couples would dilute, diminish, and devalue this goal. But that is plainly not the case. Preventing lesbians and gays from marrying does not cause more hetero******s to marry and conceive more children. Likewise, allowing gays and lesbians to marry someone of the same *** will not discourage hetero******s from marrying a person of the opposite ***. How, then, would allowing same-*** marriages reduce the number of children that hetero****** couples conceive?
This procreation argument cannot be taken seriously. We do not inquire whether hetero****** couples intend to bear children, or have the capacity to have children, before we allow them to marry. We permit marriage by the elderly, by prison inmates, and by persons who have no intention of having children. What's more, it is pernicious to think marriage should be limited to hetero******s because of the state's desire to promote procreation. We would surely not accept as constitutional a ban on marriage if a state were to decide, as China has done, to discourage procreation.
Another argument, vaguer and even less persuasive, is that gay marriage somehow does harm to hetero****** marriage. I have yet to meet anyone who can explain to me what this means. In what way would allowing same-*** partners to marry diminish the marriages of hetero****** couples? Tellingly, when the judge in our case asked our opponent to identify the ways in which same-*** marriage would harm hetero****** marriage, to his credit he answered honestly: he could not think of any.
The simple fact is that there is no good reason why we should deny marriage to same-*** partners. On the other hand, there are many reasons why we should formally recognize these relationships and embrace the rights of gays and lesbians to marry and become full and equal members of our society.
No matter what you think of homo******ity, it is a fact that gays and lesbians are members of our families, clubs, and workplaces. They are our doctors, our teachers, our soldiers (whether we admit it or not), and our friends. They yearn for acceptance, stable relationships, and success in their lives, just like the rest of us.
Conservatives and liberals alike need to come together on principles that surely unite us. Certainly, we can agree on the value of strong families, lasting domestic relationships, and communities populated by persons with recognized and sanctioned bonds to one another. Confining some of our neighbors and friends who share these same values to an outlaw or second-class status undermines their sense of belonging and weakens their ties with the rest of us and what should be our common aspirations. Even those whose religious convictions preclude endorsement of what they may perceive as an unacceptable "lifestyle" should recognize that disapproval should not warrant stigmatization and unequal treatment.
When we refuse to accord this status to gays and lesbians, we discourage them from forming the same relationships we encourage for others. And we are also telling them, those who love them, and society as a whole that their relationships are less worthy, less legitimate, less permanent, and less valued. We demean their relationships and we demean them as individuals. I cannot imagine how we benefit as a society by doing so.
I understand, but reject, certain religious teachings that denounce homo******ity as morally wrong, illegitimate, or unnatural; and I take strong exception to those who argue that same-*** relationships should be discouraged by society and law. Science has taught us, even if history has not, that gays and lesbians do not choose to be homo****** any more than the rest of us choose to be hetero******. To a very large extent, these characteristics are immutable, like being left-handed. And, while our Constitution guarantees the freedom to exercise our individual religious convictions, it equally prohibits us from forcing our beliefs on others. I do not believe that our society can ever live up to the promise of equality, and the fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, until we stop invidious discrimination on the basis of ****** orientation.
If we are born hetero******, it is not unusual for us to perceive those who are born homo****** as aberrational and threatening. Many religions and much of our social culture have reinforced those impulses. Too often, that has led to prejudice, hostility, and discrimination. The antidote is understanding, and reason. We once tolerated laws throughout this nation that prohibited marriage between persons of different races. California's Supreme Court was the first to find that discrimination unconstitutional. The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously agreed 20 years later, in 1967, in a case called Loving v. Virginia. It seems inconceivable today that only 40 years ago there were places in this country where a black woman could not legally marry a white man. And it was only 50 years ago that 17 states mandated segregated public education—until the Supreme Court unanimously struck down that practice in Brown v. Board of Education. Most Americans are proud of these decisions and the fact that the discriminatory state laws that spawned them have been discredited. I am convinced that Americans will be equally proud when we no longer discriminate against gays and lesbians and welcome them into our society.
Reactions to our lawsuit have reinforced for me these essential truths. I have certainly heard anger, resentment, and hostility, and words like "betrayal" and other pointedly graphic criticism. But mostly I have been overwhelmed by expressions of gratitude and good will from persons in all walks of life, including, I might add, from many conservatives and libertarians whose names might surprise. I have been particularly moved by many personal renditions of how lonely and personally destructive it is to be treated as an outcast and how meaningful it will be to be respected by our laws and civil institutions as an American, entitled to equality and dignity. I have no doubt that we are on the right side of this battle, the right side of the law, and the right side of history.
Some have suggested that we have brought this case too soon, and that neither the country nor the courts are "ready" to tackle this issue and remove this stigma. We disagree. We represent real clients—two wonderful couples in California who have longtime relationships. Our lesbian clients are raising four fine children who could not ask for better parents. Our clients wish to be married. They believe that they have that constitutional right. They wish to be represented in court to seek vindication of that right by mounting a challenge under the United States Constitution to the validity of Proposition 8 under the equal-protection and due-process clauses of the 14th Amendment. In fact, the California attorney general has conceded the unconstitutionality of Proposition 8, and the city of San Francisco has joined our case to defend the rights of gays and lesbians to be married. We do not tell persons who have a legitimate claim to wait until the time is "right" and the populace is "ready" to recognize their equality and equal dignity under the law.
Citizens who have been denied equality are invariably told to "wait their turn" and to "be patient." Yet veterans of past civil-rights battles found that it was the act of insisting on equal rights that ultimately sped acceptance of those rights. As to whether the courts are "ready" for this case, just a few years ago, in Romer v. Evans, the United States Supreme Court struck down a popularly adopted Colorado constitutional amendment that withdrew the rights of gays and lesbians in that state to the protection of anti-discrimination laws. And seven years ago, in Lawrence v. Texas, the Supreme Court struck down, as lacking any rational basis, Texas laws prohibiting private, intimate ****** practices between persons of the same ***, overruling a contrary decision just 20 years earlier.
These decisions have generated controversy, of course, but they are decisions of the nation's highest court on which our clients are entitled to rely. If all citizens have a constitutional right to marry, if state laws that withdraw legal protections of gays and lesbians as a class are unconstitutional, and if private, intimate ****** conduct between persons of the same *** is protected by the Constitution, there is very little left on which opponents of same-*** marriage can rely. As Justice Antonin Scalia, who dissented in the Lawrence case, pointed out, "[W]hat [remaining] justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homo****** couples exercising '[t]he liberty protected by the Constitution'?" He is right, of course. One might agree or not with these decisions, but even Justice Scalia has acknowledged that they lead in only one direction.
California's Proposition 8 is particularly vulnerable to constitutional challenge, because that state has now enacted a crazy-quilt of marriage regulation that makes no sense to anyone. California recognizes marriage between men and women, including persons on death row, child abusers, and wife beaters. At the same time, California prohibits marriage by loving, caring, stable partners of the same ***, but tries to make up for it by giving them the alternative of "domestic partnerships" with virtually all of the rights of married persons except the official, state-approved status of marriage. Finally, California recognizes 18,000 same-*** marriages that took place in the months between the state Supreme Court's ruling that upheld gay-marriage rights and the decision of California's citizens to withdraw those rights by enacting Proposition 8.
So there are now three classes of Californians: hetero****** couples who can get married, divorced, and remarried, if they wish; same-*** couples who cannot get married but can live together in domestic partnerships; and same-*** couples who are now married but who, if they divorce, cannot remarry. This is an irrational system, it is discriminatory, and it cannot stand.
Americans who believe in the words of the Declaration of Independence, in Lincoln's *****sburg Address, in the 14th Amendment, and in the Constitution's guarantees of equal protection and equal dignity before the law cannot sit by while this wrong continues. This is not a conservative or liberal issue; it is an American one, and it is time that we, as Americans, embraced it.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/229957/output/print

GregHJ
01-11-2010, 07:40 PM
This hits the nail right on the head. Good article.

seraosha
01-11-2010, 08:30 PM
Excellent article, thanks for posting. But, while I support gay rights in the case of marriage, it doesn't superseed a States vote on the subject.

2Sheds_Jackson
01-12-2010, 01:44 AM
The article makes some interesting points - only some of which I can agree with. Approaching this from the angle of conservatism is silly however - one would have to be some kind of new-wave, secular humanist half-assed "conservative" - who puts their traditionalist moral stake in the ground in 1970's California to buy that argument. Sorry, but that's not conservative enough for me. The author seems to think that as long as the law says it's groovy, all is forgiven. But the law changes from year to year - pushed ever-leftward by an increasingly nihilistic society committed to granting itself things it can't pay for on a number of levels - therefore there is no real continuity to be found there - the law provides no line in the sand at all.

By that standard, somebody in the future could look at laws that created the bloated, broken, unsustainable, over-leveraged nanny state of the US in 2010 as "traditional" America. No thanks. By then, we'll be able to look upon our progressive body of laws to grant citizenship to sea creatures, marry them, and grant them government health care, all propped up and paid for by borrowing against future generations of as-yet-unnamed constituency species. In short, I think that if a behavior or practice would appear out of place in small town USA in say, 1900 (never mind when the country was founded), then I don't think any conservative can realistically hang their hat on it.

Gunge
01-12-2010, 05:50 AM
whats the downside to allowing civil unions that have the same rights/priviledges as marraige?
i havent thought that much about the issue, but it seems like that could be a solution

TheSteve
01-12-2010, 06:20 AM
It's only a matter of time before all Americans are treated equally. Gunge, how would that be any different than not allowing the label of marriage to a union of a inter-racial couple?


Excellent article, thanks for posting. But, while I support gay rights in the case of marriage, it doesn't superseed a States vote on the subject.
Majority rule, minority rights? Leave it to the masses to vote. Luckily we have courts to decide these issues.

MaNiC
01-12-2010, 06:30 AM
The author seems to think that as long as the law says it's groovy, all is forgiven. But the law changes from year to year - pushed ever-leftward by an increasingly nihilistic society committed to granting itself things it can't pay for on a number of levels - therefore there is no real continuity to be found there - the law provides no line in the sand at all.

That's not the way I interpreted what the author was saying. The subsequent laws that you refer to as "changing from year to year" has to do more with the interpretation of our founding articles/documents/constitution than actually amending them as per some far left agenda. The notion of interpretation as oppose to actually and physically changing the laws are two completely separate beasts.

One example of this is segregation as he sites. Even though the 14th amendment guarantees all citizens "equal protection of the laws" it wasn't until explicit laws and court decisions finally forced the Executive Branch to enforce the constitution which ended the policy of segregation once and for all.


By that standard, somebody in the future could look at laws that created the bloated, broken, unsustainable, over-leveraged nanny state of the US in 2010 as "traditional" America. No thanks. By then, we'll be able to look upon our progressive body of laws to grant citizenship to sea creatures, marry them, and grant them government health care, all propped up and paid for by borrowing against future generations of as-yet-unnamed constituency species. In short, I think that if a behavior or practice would appear out of place in small town USA in say, 1900 (never mind when the country was founded), then I don't think any conservative can realistically hang their hat on it.

I think we have to be careful as a society and a country when we try to interpret our founding articles and specifically the constitution. The whole point and beauty of it is that it can be amended so that it can be updated to reflect the times that we live in. Otherwise we would be no different than radical Muslims (or the Amish, LOL) for example who preach that to live a righteous life one must be forever stuck in the 6th century.

BTW, I'm not saying that the constitution should be amended to include gay rights or whatever, I think that it speaks clearly enough for the equality of all and as a result the entire gay rights issue shouldn't even be an issue (as it isn't for the most part in Europe and other Western and secular societies who have similar constitutions as we do).

And that's the point I will end on for now. I think that if we take religion out of the equation, this issue wouldn't even be an issue to begin with. If there was truly a separation of church and state there would be no way that overly religious activists would get away with denying the rights of gay people for so long.

PS - The argument that children who grow up with gay parents is somehow "traumatizing" is a bunch of horse plop. History has unfortunately shown that children can be abused, mistreated, and neglected in all sorts of environments. And the majority of those environments often includes a bitch for a mother and an alcoholic dirtbag for a father (if he's there at all).

NeedsABetterName
01-12-2010, 01:04 PM
The article makes some interesting points - only some of which I can agree with. Approaching this from the angle of conservatism is silly however - one would have to be some kind of new-wave, secular humanist half-assed "conservative" - who puts their traditionalist moral stake in the ground in 1970's California to buy that argument. Sorry, but that's not conservative enough for me. The author seems to think that as long as the law says it's groovy, all is forgiven. But the law changes from year to year - pushed ever-leftward by an increasingly nihilistic society committed to granting itself things it can't pay for on a number of levels - therefore there is no real continuity to be found there - the law provides no line in the sand at all.

By that standard, somebody in the future could look at laws that created the bloated, broken, unsustainable, over-leveraged nanny state of the US in 2010 as "traditional" America. No thanks. By then, we'll be able to look upon our progressive body of laws to grant citizenship to sea creatures, marry them, and grant them government health care, all propped up and paid for by borrowing against future generations of as-yet-unnamed constituency species. In short, I think that if a behavior or practice would appear out of place in small town USA in say, 1900 (never mind when the country was founded), then I don't think any conservative can realistically hang their hat on it.

And if not those morals, than whose? Mine? Yours? Pastor Bob's? Are you implying that there is some sort of "correct" moral code? If yes, please enlighten us and put an end to the debates going on in countless Philosophy classrooms across the nation.

I believe the point behind your statement here (and please, feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted it) is that "conservative" is vested in ideas like Reagan's moral majority. To me, conservatism has never been about the social issues it currently seems to represent. It's about adherence to the Constitution. So in my eyes you're right in some ways and wrong in others. Yes, our society has transformed from self-reliance to entitlement -- and there is no room for that in the Constitution. However, to claim to support it and then conveniently ignore the parts that you don't like isn't traditional conservatism, but rather hypocrisy.


All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

- 14th AmendmentIn plain English it says that, because I am a citizen, the State cannot infringe upon my civil rights without due process. In 1868, the implicit purpose was to grant former slaves the same rights as whites, but it's interesting to note that the Amendment makes no mention of race -- this implies that this applies to all citizens, no matter what race, creed, religion, belief, etc. they may hold. Full stop. There isn't a footnote that says "this only applies when I agree with the lifestyle of those whom the rights are extended to."

It's unfortunate that this issue is still being debated when it comes to its legality. Once upon a time, allowing interracial marriages was probably considered "activism," "immoral," and "unconstitutional" as well. If you want to call enforcing the Constitution "activism" when it comes to giving them thar' hedonistic sodomites the same rights that you and I hold, be my guest. But by no means should you hide behind the banner of conservatism when doing so.

And on the States' rights issue: currently, none of the states in the Union can deny somebody something upon basis of their race, religion, creed, gender, etc. I've read that same basic message (in different forms) all over the country, from elementary school cafeterias to the DMV. Currently, I have to go to the county clerk's office (a government official) to get a marriage license*. That most states still deny gays the same rights they give straights is not only ridiculous, it's hypocritical and against the law (remember all those equal opportunity signs in the government offices?). The only reason I see why this hasn't been seriously challenged is because many Americans seem to believe their personal religion supersedes the law on certain issues.

*Whether I choose to get married in a church is another story, however, and it's perfectly fine if a church does not want to host a gay marriage.

wildcat
01-12-2010, 01:18 PM
My only problem with gay marriage passing, is will this effect religions from not support gay marriage, will this force religions to have to accept what they believe is wrong. Or would churches end up getting sued for discrimination, and therefore forced to accept what they do not believe. Personally I do not care if 2 people want to get marriage, or 3 or 4 or 5, why should marriage be limited to only 2 people. My only concern is that religions maintain the right to worship under the 1st Amendment.

as for the 14th Amendment

I don't thing it applies in this case, Seeing that due process of law has happen, twice, with the people voting the law.

brainplay
01-12-2010, 01:35 PM
And on the States' rights issue: currently, none of the states in the Union can deny somebody something upon basis of their race, religion, creed, gender, etc. I've read that same basic message (in different forms) all over the country, from elementary school cafeterias to the DMV. Currently, I have to go to the county clerk's office (a government official) to get a marriage license*. That most states still deny gays the same rights they give straights is not only ridiculous, it's hypocritical and against the law (remember all those equal opportunity signs in the government offices?). The only reason I see why this hasn't been seriously challenged is because many Americans seem to believe their personal religion supersedes the law on certain issues.

I hate to point this out to you but since homo******ity is classed as a "lifestyle" it can be regulated accordingly. It it not a gender, race, religion, creed, etc. Legal framework is trying to rate it as something much different. Take note though, should it truly pass then you open up the door for other marriage types including polygamy and polyandry.

No other accredited medical foundation wants touch the subject and declare it as anything else let alone study it. No institution wants to risk that kind of flak unless they have an agenda.

NeedsABetterName
01-12-2010, 01:46 PM
My only problem with gay marriage passing, is will this effect religions from not support gay marriage, will this force religions to have to accept what they believe is wrong. Or would churches end up getting sued for discrimination, and therefore forced to accept what they do not believe. Personally I do not care if 2 people want to get marriage, or 3 or 4 or 5, why should marriage be limited to only 2 people. My only concern is that religions maintain the right to worship under the 1st Amendment.

as for the 14th Amendment

I don't thing it applies in this case, Seeing that due process of law has happen, twice, with the people voting the law. "Tolerance" is not the same thing as "acceptance."

Some religious groups have a problem with being in the military; the State doesn't turn around and deny them rights because of this. Sure, the thought of gay marriage offends many religious groups. Personally, the thought that a law would be made to placate religion at the expense of anybody, no matter how small the minority, is offensive to me. Nobody said that we would force religious groups to perform gay marriages; that is just as wrong as denying marriage to gays. Nobody said we would force religious groups to alter their traditions, ceremonies, etc. Marriage is not the sole property of religion, however -- there are plenty of secular marriages out there. As I've stated previously: I have to go to the county clerk, not the local minister, to get a marriage license.

Re: due process and voting not to allow gay marriages. Where does it stop? If the majority can vote to take rights away from the minority, what do we have left as a nation? But that's all beside the point when you consider the following: where in the Constitution does it say that a state can vote to nullify the supreme law of the land? South Carolina tried that several times -- it never ended well. There's also the full faith and credit clause to consider: it's unconstitutional for one state to not give recognition to a legal document (like a marriage certificate) from another state. There are all sorts of constitutional issues to consider here. If Americans feel that gay marriage is wrong, there are ways to make it illegal. But if you must do that (I certainly don't feel it's right, but there are options), do it the right way -- amend the Constitution and strike those clauses that currently give gays that right. Keep in mind that by taking those away, you're taking us back to a time when certain races were property, not people (remember, those same clauses give rights to every race, gender, religion, creed, etc.).

My main point in all of this is tolerance. I may not like something, but that doesn't give me the right to take that something away from somebody else.


I hate to point this out to you but since homo******ity is classed as a "lifestyle" it can be regulated accordingly. It it not a gender, race, religion, creed, etc. Legal framework is trying to rate it as something much different. Take note though, should it truly pass then you open up the door for other marriage types including polygamy and polyandry.

No other accredited medical foundation wants touch the subject and declare it as anything else let alone study it. No institution wants to risk that kind of flak unless they have an agenda.Well, a lifestyle is certainly progress from the last classification (mental disorder).

I wasn't aware that the government had the right to regulate my lifestyle. Lifestyle is a very broad term, encompassing everything from who I sleep with to what music I listen to and everything in between. I see that statement as pretty absurd, but please feel free to provide Constitutional justification for the government regulating who I'm allowed to love. Keep in mind that simply because the government's done it before does not make it legal; the government does plenty of unconstitutional things on a daily basis.

One more thing: I was paraphrasing those equal opportunity signs that seem to be everywhere now. Those are completely separate from the 14th Amendment (posted above). Re-read it if you have to, but it doesn't say anything about any particular "thing" (race, gender, ****** preference, or color of hair); it simply says "all persons."

As for polygamy et. all: valid point. Having said that (and you can call me what you will), I don't see anything wrong with those choices. I just choose not to do so (in this case, be polygamous). Bringing up an even "worse" lifestyle isn't going to work on me.

wildcat
01-12-2010, 01:51 PM
"Tolerance" is not the same thing as "acceptance."

Some religious groups have a problem with being in the military; the State doesn't turn around and deny them rights because of this. Sure, the thought of gay marriage offends many religious groups. Personally, the thought that a law would be made to placate religion at the expense of anybody, no matter how small the minority, is offensive to me. Nobody said that we would force religious groups to perform gay marriages; that is just as wrong as denying marriage to gays. Nobody said we would force religious groups to alter their traditions, ceremonies, etc. Marriage is not the sole property of religion, however -- there are plenty of secular marriages out there. As I've stated previously: I have to go to the county clerk, not the local minister, to get a marriage license.



agreed



Re: due process and voting not to allow gay marriages. Where does it stop? If the majority can vote to take rights away from the minority, what do we have left as a nation? But that's all beside the point when you consider the following: where in the Constitution does it say that a state can vote to nullify the supreme law of the land? South Carolina tried that several times -- it never ended well. There's also the full faith and credit clause to consider: it's unconstitutional for one state to not give recognition to a legal document (like a marriage certificate) from another state. There are all sorts of constitutional issues to consider here.

My main point in all of this is tolerance. I may not like something, but that doesn't give me the right to take that something away from somebody else.

The fact that the federal government has not dealt this this issue, therefore the the law in California is constitution, because due process has happened, but if federal law dictates other wise this will over turn California and all other states, maybe this is what is trying to be won in federal court.

SoftLion
01-12-2010, 01:52 PM
whats the downside to allowing civil unions that have the same rights/priviledges as marraige?
i havent thought that much about the issue, but it seems like that could be a solution

Because then you will have people like me that lived with a girlfriend for years argue that relationship should constitute a "civil union" as we co-habitated, split bills, and owned property together, and now I want the same privileges as gay and lesbian couples. And believe me, I will be the first mother****er in line to get on that train.

Hollis
01-12-2010, 01:55 PM
I think civil unions are a great idea. When probably in reality a decent percentage of marriages are just that.

NeedsABetterName
01-12-2010, 02:18 PM
So you're saying that the 14th Amendment, which says that the government can deprive no citizen of his/her rights without due process, does not handle the issue? Just because the Constitution doesn't explicitly say that "Bob and Steve have the right to be married" does not mean that it doesn't speak on the issue. The 14th Amendment was a very progressive amendment by virtue of its vagueness; it opened up the door to civil rights for all people, not just the former slaves (though that was its immediate goal).

Since federal law supersedes state law, a state law depriving a certain group of its civil rights (and this is any group, not just gays) is unconstitutional by the 14th Amendment. It may be in California's constitution, but that doesn't make that law constitutional.

brainplay
01-12-2010, 03:24 PM
Just because the Constitution doesn't explicitly say that "Bob and Steve have the right to be married" does not mean that it doesn't speak on the issue.

You're confusing rights and privileges. Legal framework determines the bonuses, taxation, etc on a co-joined couple. These are not rights. There is no right to be married under the constitution. Marriage is the agreement of two individuals to share resources. The state in turn recognizes the benefits of this union and provides special treatment. This varies from state to state. This is a privilege. This special treatment can be taken away and in this day and age more and more people are avoiding this kind of union as it has it's legal downsides as well.

Kit
01-12-2010, 03:35 PM
Civil Unions for everybody. I don't care. Hell, I'll get a Civil Union with my family if I suits my interests in the future. I think the state should stop sponsoring marriages. Marriage licenses were invented in the first place to stop black men from marrying white women. State marriage is archaic and useless. Marriage is such a private matter, I don't like the idea of lawyers meddling with it.

2Sheds_Jackson
01-12-2010, 04:05 PM
And if not those morals, than whose? Mine? Yours? Pastor Bob's? Are you implying that there is some sort of "correct" moral code? If yes, please enlighten us and put an end to the debates going on in countless Philosophy classrooms across the nation.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You, I and everybody else is free to love, hate or be indifferent to the concept of gay marriage - we all have different moral compasses. But a "conservative" has no place underpinning an argument starting with legislation and/or court decisions pushed by liberal organizations. If they do, they're not very conservative, are they?


There isn't a footnote that says "this only applies when I agree with the lifestyle of those whom the rights are extended to."

Well, yeah actually it does. There are all sorts of behaviors that society discriminates against both implicitly and explicitly, and for all sorts of reasons. We don't let people ingest any chemicals they would like - even if it's done completely in the privacy of their own homes. We don't let people marry inanimate objects, children or pets. My career as a male prostitute was cut short, and now I can't even expose my genitalia in public, despite the fact that I've shown repeatedly that no real harm is done. So the question isn't can we discriminate, but should we.

eskachig
01-12-2010, 04:27 PM
Because then you will have people like me that lived with a girlfriend for years argue that relationship should constitute a "civil union" as we co-habitated, split bills, and owned property together, and now I want the same privileges as gay and lesbian couples. And believe me, I will be the first mother****er in line to get on that train.I don't get it, why don't you just get married then?


Civil Unions for everybody. I don't care. Hell, I'll get a Civil Union with my family if I suits my interests in the future. I think the state should stop sponsoring marriages. Marriage licenses were invented in the first place to stop black men from marrying white women. State marriage is archaic and useless. Marriage is such a private matter, I don't like the idea of lawyers meddling with it.Also this.

NeedsABetterName
01-12-2010, 08:48 PM
You're confusing rights and privileges. Legal framework determines the bonuses, taxation, etc on a co-joined couple. These are not rights. There is no right to be married under the constitution. Marriage is the agreement of two individuals to share resources. The state in turn recognizes the benefits of this union and provides special treatment. This varies from state to state. This is a privilege. This special treatment can be taken away and in this day and age more and more people are avoiding this kind of union as it has it's legal downsides as well.

OK, fair point. I don't have a "right" to be married, anymore than I have a "right" to drive.

Having said that, marriage is, as you've said, an agreement between two individuals. If two consenting individuals want to enter into that sort of contract, what reason is there to deny that apart from the gender of the two? That's the point I'm getting at. I see no reason to deny that privilege soley on the basis of the gender of the participants. If it were a mixed couple, one would call it a violation of their civil rights. Having said that, you and I aren't going to convince each other that it's right/wrong for gays to marry; we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.


I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You, I and everybody else is free to love, hate or be indifferent to the concept of gay marriage - we all have different moral compasses. But a "conservative" has no place underpinning an argument starting with legislation and/or court decisions pushed by liberal organizations. If they do, they're not very conservative, are they?



Well, yeah actually it does. There are all sorts of behaviors that society discriminates against both implicitly and explicitly, and for all sorts of reasons. We don't let people ingest any chemicals they would like - even if it's done completely in the privacy of their own homes. We don't let people marry inanimate objects, children or pets. My career as a male prostitute was cut short, and now I can't even expose my genitalia in public, despite the fact that I've shown repeatedly that no real harm is done. So the question isn't can we discriminate, but should we.

Your views on conservatism are different than mine. As I've said previously, I don't see conservatism as being about the social issues that it's come to be about. I see it as being fiscally responsible and adhering to the Constitution. Social issues boil down to morality, and I don't think it's reasonable to disagree with something simply because it came from a "liberal organization." (off topic, but I know several gays that vote Republican, though a Libertarian streak is more common).

The 14th Amendment doesn't say to discriminate. It says that those civil rights shall not be removed without due process. So, we take away the "right" to shoot up meth because it's harmful to self and others; by causing harm to others, it infringes upon their rights. The same could be said about many harmful behaviors, and I agree with much of that. Having said that, I don't see homo******ity as being harmful to anybody (well, except some peoples' sensibilities).

brainplay
01-13-2010, 12:00 AM
OK, fair point. I don't have a "right" to be married, anymore than I have a "right" to drive.

Having said that, marriage is, as you've said, an agreement between two individuals. If two consenting individuals want to enter into that sort of contract, what reason is there to deny that apart from the gender of the two? That's the point I'm getting at. I see no reason to deny that privilege soley on the basis of the gender of the participants. If it were a mixed couple, one would call it a violation of their civil rights. Having said that, you and I aren't going to convince each other that it's right/wrong for gays to marry; we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

I'm afraid you're still a little confused here. First, homo****** couples can enter into a union with each other at will. The only difference is that the state will not recognize it nor any claims to property or tax bonuses. Second, it's not based on gender. As noted, it's a lifestyle. Until that terminology is changed there isn't much that can be done legally except by referendum or a state law enacted. This is why such things are not immediately addressed under the 14th amendment.


The 14th Amendment doesn't say to discriminate. It says that those civil rights shall not be removed without due process. So, we take away the "right" to shoot up meth because it's harmful to self and others; by causing harm to others, it infringes upon their rights. The same could be said about many harmful behaviors, and I agree with much of that. Having said that, I don't see homo******ity as being harmful to anybody (well, except some peoples' sensibilities).

Once again you're confusing rights and privileges. Shooting up meth or some other drug has never been a "right". Harmful acts upon one's self are not a "right" except in very limited circumstances under the "Right to Die" which is still not recognized from state to state. There have been various legal attempts at making this a right but have been met with little success.

Your actual "rights" are actually fairly limited in scope. Liberties and privileges are not the same.

Parx400
01-13-2010, 12:54 AM
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You, I and everybody else is free to love, hate or be indifferent to the concept of gay marriage - we all have different moral compasses. But a "conservative" has no place underpinning an argument starting with legislation and/or court decisions pushed by liberal organizations. If they do, they're not very conservative, are they?



Well, yeah actually it does. There are all sorts of behaviors that society discriminates against both implicitly and explicitly, and for all sorts of reasons. We don't let people ingest any chemicals they would like - even if it's done completely in the privacy of their own homes. We don't let people marry inanimate objects, children or pets. My career as a male prostitute was cut short, and now I can't even expose my genitalia in public, despite the fact that I've shown repeatedly that no real harm is done. So the question isn't can we discriminate, but should we.


It is ok to be conservative and in favor of the courts when they are doing their job. We have courts to keep the people in check when they discriminate against a minority.

Parx400
01-13-2010, 12:57 AM
The Terminology needs to be changed. I live in CA and have had Gay Family friends my whole life. In no way is it a lifestyle for them. I look at the kids I went to high school with that came out in college and i can say that each one of them was gay way before that.

GregHJ
01-13-2010, 11:02 AM
The fact of the matter is, homo******ity is not a lifestyle choice, it's something you are born with. Because of this, you can't discriminate against them and deny them marriage. Of course, even if it was a lifestyle, you still can't legally deny them the right to marry (pursuit of happiness, freedom of expression, etc...). For those who would say "well, marriage is sacred, but we an give them civil unions with the same rights and privileges," well, that doesn't work either. The reason being: segregation. "Separate but equal" is first and foremost not equal and is illegal. All citizens have to have the same rights in a free society. Every American has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

Kaplanr
01-13-2010, 12:01 PM
The Newsweek piece actually contains two articles, one about Olsen and the other by him. He uses two arguments very cogently. The first is that California's law is unconstitutional because it denies due process and equal treatment under the law. The second argument, which which he uses as a club to question the intent of the law, is the Declaration's premise/promise of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

His conservative argument is the truly libertarian one that government has no business regulating behavior as morality. I'm sorry if his conservative credentials are no longer valid within Limbaugh World, but you can't question his professional/political pedigree.

NeedsABetterName
01-13-2010, 08:46 PM
I'm afraid you're still a little confused here. First, homo****** couples can enter into a union with each other at will. The only difference is that the state will not recognize it nor any claims to property or tax bonuses. Second, it's not based on gender. As noted, it's a lifestyle. Until that terminology is changed there isn't much that can be done legally except by referendum or a state law enacted. This is why such things are not immediately addressed under the 14th amendment.



Once again you're confusing rights and privileges. Shooting up meth or some other drug has never been a "right". Harmful acts upon one's self are not a "right" except in very limited circumstances under the "Right to Die" which is still not recognized from state to state. There have been various legal attempts at making this a right but have been met with little success.

Your actual "rights" are actually fairly limited in scope. Liberties and privileges are not the same.

Well, maybe I can't read, but I'm pretty sure that the Amendment states that no State can make a law "which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

I'm pretty sure the bolded phrases back up my points. We don't have a right to work, either, nor do we have a right to education -- having said that, I think you'd be hard-pressed to justify taking those two things away from people on the basis of something they cannot control (the obvious one being race).

You also define homo******ity as a "lifestyle," something that can be snapped out of on a whim. I know several homo******s, both male and female, who would beg to differ. By your assertion, you would be correct; the State can restrict certain lifestyles (gang activity immediately springs to mind). However, you are classifying homo******ity as something it is not.

I also think that you're confusing "rights" with "civil rights/liberties." There is a difference between what is listed out in the Bill of Rights and what have come to be known as civil rights.