Google says it might end operations in China over compromise of dissidents’ e-mail ac

[Blackcatnursery]

Sorry no main news links yet
http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/google-says-it-might-end-operations-in-china-over-compromise-of-dissidents-e-mail-accounts/
E-mail leak has Google threatening to leave China
SAN FRANCISCO — Google Inc. said Tuesday it might end its operations in China after it discovered that the e-mail accounts of human rights activists had been breached.
The company disclosed in a blog post that it had detected a "highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China." Further investigation revealed that "a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmailaccounts of Chinese human rights activists," Google's post said.
Google did not specifically accuse the Chinese government. But the company added that it is "no longer willing to continue censoring our results" on its Chinese search engine, as the government requires. Google says the decision could force it to shut down its Chinese site and its offices in the country.
Google first agreed to censor search results in China in 2006 when it created a version of its search engine bearing China's Web suffix, ".cn." Previously, Chinese-language results had been available through the company's main Google.com site.
To obtain its Chinese license, Google agreed to omit Web content that the country's government found objectionable. At the time Google executives said they struggled with how to reconcile the censorship concessions with the company's motto of "don't be evil." By then Yahoo had come under fire for giving the Chinese government account information of a Chinese journalist who was later convicted for violating state secrecy laws.

EDIT - Direct from Google - http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html

[Ordie]

I hope google lives by its motto.


Google hints at quitting China over cyber attack on e-mail accounts


By Ellen Nakashima
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, January 12, 2010; 6:17 PM

Google, the world's largest Internet search engine, said Tuesday that it may pull out of China because of a sophisticated computer network attack originating in China and targeting its e-mail service.
"We're reviewing our operations there," a company spokesperson said. "If it comes down to it, we may" leave.
Google said it had evidence to suggest that "a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts" of Chinese human rights activists. The attack was discovered in December.
Based on its investigation to date, Google said it does not believe the attack succeeded. "Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves," the post said.
At least 20 other large companies have been similarly targeted with such attacks, Google said. The firms' industries range from finance and technology to media and chemicals.
China is among a handful of countries considered to have impressive cyber offensive capabilities, but U.S. officials have refrained from publicly accusing the country because determining with certainty who is behind an attack is quite difficult.
Attacks against China rights activists have been growing, however, and suspicion has fallen on the Beijing government or its broad army of proxies.
Source:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/12/AR2010011203024_pf.html

[Blackcatnursery]

Ordie
Already dropped it here
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?172394-Google-says-it-might-end-operations-in-China-over-compromise-of-dissidents-e-mail-ac

Looks like Google are not going to filter China's results any more, this could go balistic

[Sidhardha]

"Threaten" ?

Did i miss something, like a reason why poor Chinese people would cry about absence of Google corporation at their internal market? Baidu would be just happy. As far i remember Google works for profits, and if it "threatens" to cut own profits - he is free to do so, but why would Chinese care?

It doesn't provide no irreplaceable service that they would absolutely miss.

[TheSteve]

"Threaten" ?
That's not in the actual title of the article, only Ordies post title. And Google leaving is not just a matter of profit, maybe the company doesn't want to take part in the oppression of the Chinese people.

[Ordie]

That's not in the actual title of the article, only Ordies post title. And Google leaving is not just a matter of profit, maybe the company doesn't want to take part in the oppression of the Chinese people.

People use and value Google gmail for its security.
If the Chinese government is breaking into gmail to seek dissenter, who is to say they can break into any gmail account?

[Blue P]

actually, google got banned in mainland china about 10 months ago. and their former rival 'baidu' took over the business just fine. so as a matter of fact, google can not 'pull out' from china any more. since it hasn't been there for a while.

[Solvent]

People in China use Daidu anyway.

[Clockwinder]

Google motto - "Do no harm"

[skyeye]

That's what happens when you dance with the Devil.

My blog was blocked in China years ago. :)

[MaNiC]

It's nice to see a company (especially as big as Google) stand on its principles for once.

[dttk0009]

Google? Principles? Is that a joke?
I doubt they'll pull out of China. Way too much money to be lost.

[acosta]

well, heard baidu.com just got attacted by iran cyber army.

but for your topic, i'd like to post my view,

baidu is just ****ty profit driver, it fails at the core of an internet company, just like yahoo and aol. but very rich, bring back u.s. investor huge money every year.

google.cn need good people there to manage and operate. a company as the mass of google has its responsibily of being a leader in china.

to lead the inovation spirits of IT firms, google.cn obvious ignored this, or google does not fund its inovation efforts in china.
to fight for the motto, as posted above, be brave. pulling out by whatever reason is a shame.

[SBL]

actually, google got banned in mainland china about 10 months ago. and their former rival 'baidu' took over the business just fine. so as a matter of fact, google can not 'pull out' from china any more. since it hasn't been there for a while.
It was ?

[TheSteve]

an interview with googles chief legal officer.


http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/01/12/business/1247466517265/google-may-close-operations-in-china.html

[Nietz]

Great excuse

[Blue P]

i'm wondering what google has been doing during last 10 months, during which their webpages got placed on the black list of chinese goverment and nobody from mainland china was able to get access to them. why are they talking about 'pulling out' that long after the business was literally over?

[seruriermarshal]

That's Great .

[MaNiC]

i'm wondering what google has been doing during last 10 months, during which their webpages got placed on the black list of chinese goverment and nobody from mainland china was able to get access to them. why are they talking about 'pulling out' that long after the business was literally over?

Originally they went in thinking that they could open up the market in that country and apparently that's what they have been trying to do all that time (through negotiations with the government, etc.). Again, it points to the fact that it was more than just about the "business" in the sense of the bottom line alone, but rather about the idea of possibly changing human rights for the better in that part of the world (at least as far as internet practices are concerned).

[ZeroZen]

whats the point of having Google in China where the gov't heavily favored Baidu search engine. We all know chinese market has great potential to make money even if the search restrictions were in place. To the point, Chinese gov't beginning to kill off the competition favoring more chinese brands. Soon, other foreign companies will be next...

[cn_habs]

Baidu has already taken most of the market share anyway.

[Ordie]

whats the point of having Google in China where the gov't heavily favored Baidu search engine. We all know chinese market has great potential to make money even if the search restrictions were in place. To the point, Chinese gov't beginning to kill off the competition favoring more chinese brands. Soon, other foreign companies will be next...

Businesses and tycoons are seduced with the idea of selling to billions of new customers. That's what happened to Rupert Murdoch. He tried to expand his media business into China with Sky TV. Only to have the Communist government stall, regulate and protect the local (state owned) industry. The only good that Murdoch got out of China was his wife.

Ever since then Murdoch never misses an opportunity to take a swipe at China with his publications.

[clue]

A very VERY nice PR spin. Like google actually cared for doing the "right" thing.

[xav]

Respect.
Now let's see if it is just talks or if they actually do it.

[JJHH]

That Chinese "control freak" government annoys me...

[hskywalker]

Google was much better than baidu. The gap has almost closed, but I still think google is better.

The problem is google have become too powerful due to the imformation it processed and stored. And the patriot act have given american government rights to examine all google data, be it american or chinese. Chinese government won't tolerate this.

Many people support stealing personal information on the internet for some "public good", like preventing terrorism, child ****, nazism, racism...depending on what they think is more evil. Then every country can add their own concern to the evil list, like blasphemy, drugs, anti government acts...

Hilary clinton has called for uncensored internet. If she really believes that, USA should lead in example.

[Rayber]

Google was much better than baidu. The gap has almost closed, but I still think google is better.

The problem is google have become too powerful due to the imformation it processed and stored. And the patriot act have given american government rights to examine all google data, be it american or chinese. Chinese government won't tolerate this.

Many people support stealing personal information on the internet for some "public good", like preventing terrorism, child ****, nazism, racism...depending on what they think is more evil. Then every country can add their own concern to the evil list, like blasphemy, drugs, anti government acts...

Hilary clinton has called for uncensored internet. If she really believes that, USA should lead in example.

So as long as the goal is holy everything is OK ? i just feel for posting this picture : 104175
It says it all imho

[eskachig]

Hilary clinton has called for uncensored internet. If she really believes that, USA should lead in example.Internet is not censored in America. Also, I believe any data that the government wants from Google has to be subpoenaed. The patriot act allows for electronic surveillance, not access to private corporate data.

[plato]

Great move by google. They will not get much share in tightly controlled Chinese market anyway. Might as well win some PR points in the west.

[Ordie]

Great move by google. They will not get much share in tightly controlled Chinese market anyway. Might as well win some PR points in the west.

For a company with a high profile such as Google threatening to pull out, its sends a message to the other high tech companies that business in China is not worth the risks.

It also says that there is a greater market than China with India and the rest of the world.

[Solvent]

For a company with a high profile such as Google threatening to pull out, its sends a message to the other high tech companies that business in China is not worth the risks.

It also says that there is a greater market than China with India and the rest of the world.

High tech? Isn't high tech sanctioned for China by western countries?

Feel free to leave. "Thanks, come again."

[Blue P]

For a company with a high profile such as Google threatening to pull out, its sends a message to the other high tech companies that business in China is not worth the risks.

It also says that there is a greater market than China with India and the rest of the world.

well, ordie, here is the problem: they are not pulling out. they got kicked out long time ago.

[SBL]

well, ordie, here is the problem: they are not pulling out. they got kicked out long time ago.
I asked about this earlier. When did it happen? Have ye linkage?

[pg_ord]

I asked about this earlier. When did it happen? Have ye linkage?
If Xinhua or China Daily reported it everybody would have picked up from there. There were none AFAIK. So I call BS.

[Blue P]

I asked about this earlier. When did it happen? Have ye linkage?

didn't see it, sorry, here is the link: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/167282/china_appears_to_block_google_sites.html

i haven't been china for a while, so i cant tell for sure. but as far as i know, google has been negotiating with the goverment since that but with little success. google's former rival 'baidu.com' is firmly backed by the goverment, if not partly owned. and although less favoured by by many people at first, it turned out to be working just fine.


and to my beloved indian elite friends, i hope you enjoy your google and freedom: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/maybe-a-little-evil-google-outs-indian-man-to-authorities.ars


An Indian man was arrested over the weekend for allegedly posting derogatory and vulgar content about Indian politician Sonia Gandhi on Google's social networking site, Orkut. 22-year-old Rahul Krishnakumar Vaid had posted his comments in an Orkut community called "I hate Sonia Gandhi" through an Orkut account associated with his Gmail account. With Google's help, local authorities were able to verify Vaid's identity and make the arrest.
Vaid was charged under the Indian Penal Code as well as the Information Technology Act, according to expressindia (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Gurgaon-techie-held-for-posting-derogatory-messages-against-Sonia-Gandhi-on-Orkut/311070/). Perhaps surprisingly, the creator of the "I hate Sonia Gandhi" group was left alone, as hating prominent politicians is not illegal in India. Posting vulgar comments about that someone is, however, leading authorities to pursue Vaid.
Google admitted today that it had forked over Vaid's information after it was requested by Indian law enforcement. A spokesperson for Google told IDG News Service (http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/146049/google_defends_helping_police_nab_defamer.html) that, while the company is committed to protecting user privacy, it must obey local laws and legal processes.
http://media.arstechnica.com/news.media/google_logo.jpg Google's part in the arrest has hit a nerve with those who hold Google on a pedestal for its commitment against evil-ness, but the search giant is far from the only company to give up the good on its users to law enforcement in other countries. Yahoo is perhaps the most famous (or is that infamous?) for having done so with a number of dissidents in China (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070730-chinese-dissident-e-mails-what-did-yahoo-know-and-when-did-it-know-it.html), resulting in their arrest. Since then, the whole issue of complying with local authorities has become a large blip on Congress' radar, which remains unimpressed with Yahoo's defenses (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071106-yahoo-calls-withholding-of-info-on-chinese-arrests-a-misunderstanding.html). And, both Microsoft and Google regularly censor things in China, with Microsoft blocking certain terms from blogs hosted on MSN Spaces (http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2006/1/3/2309), and Google censoring search results (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060125-6051.html).
Could Google et al. be forced to change their ways? Earlier this month, Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ) announced his plans (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080501-bill-would-penalize-companies-for-aiding-internet-censorship.html) to push the Global Online Freedom Act (HR 275 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-275)) to the House floor for voting, which would bar US companies from disclosing personally-identifiable information about users except for "legitimate foreign law enforcement purposes."
The problem is that "legitimate law enforcement" is vague and left up to the US Department of Justice's discretion. Would Vaid's case be considered legitimate or not? What is the threshold for legitimacy? Also, the bill has a convenient exit plan for anyone who tries to apply its rules to the US, and the President would have the authority to waive the provisions of the Act as long as "the important national interest of the United States requires the exercise of such waiver authority."
This much is sure: multinational digital giants like Google have to play ball with governments—repressive and otherwise—if they want to continue operating in those countries. Making sure they do so without angering activists, shareholders, US authorities, and foreign authorities is another matter entirely.

[gazell]

didn't see it, sorry, here is the link: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/167282/china_appears_to_block_google_sites.html

'aid had posted his comments in an Orkut community called "I hate Sonia Gandhi" through an Orkut account associated with his Gmail account. With Google's help, local authorities were able to verify Vaid's identity and make the arrest.'

Well, then, I'm not surprised, Google does not want to participate in this shyte. I would not either. If this is is true, of course. Somehow nicely got onto India blamed, we were talking China, I thought.

[Blue P]

'aid had posted his comments in an Orkut community called "I hate Sonia Gandhi" through an Orkut account associated with his Gmail account. With Google's help, local authorities were able to verify Vaid's identity and make the arrest.'

Well, then, I'm not surprised, Google does not want to participate in this shyte. I would not either. If this is is true, of course. Somehow nicely got onto India blamed, we were talking China, I thought.

i thought we have been talking about google's unsuccessful business. and it happened to be in china. so it was automatically concluded to be red evil chi-com's fault by many......

and i hate sonia gandhi too. oops, i hope mp.net wouldn't sell me out to the indian goverment like google did. or i get arrested in the airport if i visit there. :)

[Solvent]

i thought we have been talking about google's unsuccessful business. and it happened to be in china. so it was automatically concluded to be red evil chi-com's fault by many......

and i hate sonia gandhi too. oops, i hope mp.net wouldn't sell me out to the indian goverment like google did. or i get arrested in the airport if i visit there. :)

Man, you never know. Silence is gold. :)

[pg_ord]

i thought we have been talking about google's unsuccessful business. and it happened to be in china. so it was automatically concluded to be red evil chi-com's fault by many......

and i hate sonia gandhi too. oops, i hope mp.net wouldn't sell me out to the indian goverment like google did. or i get arrested in the airport if i visit there. :)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126239086161213013.html?mod=rss_Today%27s_Most_Popular

There are several user groups on Orkut with harsh rhetoric targeting political and religious figures. One anti-Sonia Gandhi group has an "X" through her photo and describes her as "Lady Hitler," accusing her of not supporting the cause of ethnic Tamil separatists in Sri Lanka. (Ms. Gandhi's husband, former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, was assassinated in 1991 by a Tamil Sri Lankan extremist.) Congress Party representatives didn't return calls seeking comment. Well he was not arrested for just hating her. :roll: I mean even I hate Sonia Gandhi.....but going to call a National Leader Hitler and go on to support internationally banned terrorists groups (LTTE) is going too far. Anyways if tommorrow anybody opens a site supporting Al Qaeda in India it would be banned too. :-|

Gitanjali Duggal, Google's in-house litigator in India, says Google now has an organized approach. The company tries -- even if doesn't always succeed -- to resist many requests to remove material. "We do have elbow room in exercising our discretion," she said. "Literally on a daily basis we push back on these kinds of complaints."
Ms. Duggal says she has argued to authorities that whatever is allowed in print should be allowed online. The Indian press is full of biting political commentary. Newspaper and television journalists regularly skewer public figures for being corrupt, ineffective, or soft on Pakistan, India's rival. Ms. Duggal says there has to be something especially incendiary in Internet content to warrant intervention by Google. The company declined to provide any data on the proportion of complaints that result in content removal.
"Saying 'I hate Shiv Sena' is one thing, but saying 'I Hate Shiv Sena because they hate Muslims' is another thing," Ms. Duggal said, because it "brings in the concept of religion." She said Google is especially sensitive to any comments that might be seen as defamatory against a public figure, since libel in India is a criminal offense punishable by jail time.

As usual chicoms twisting the facts to suite their agenda. Anyways back on topic (CHINA).

[BearInBunnySuit]

Apologies for the off-topic question but why do you guys hate Sonia Gandhi?

[Blue P]

She said Google is especially sensitive to any comments that might be seen as defamatory against a public figure, since libel in India is a criminal offense punishable by jail time. sounds extremely suppressing to me...... i can post 'i hate mao' or 'mao was stupid' without be jailed in china, you know? but, oh, sorry, no,no, a demacratic country cant be suppressing. it cant be. :p

and back to the topic, google's business in china has failed. conclusive?


Apologies for the off-topic question but why do you guys hate Sonia Gandhi?

elitism. ran the country like a family business.

[pg_ord]

Apologies for the off-topic question but why do you guys hate Sonia Gandhi?
Has a very tight leash on the PM. Favors dynastic politics (her son is a minister, daughter a start campaigner and a potential PM candidate). Plays vote bank (appeasement) politics. States have lost considerable freedom in self governance IMHO.

[Clockwinder]

This much is sure: multinational digital giants like Google have to play ball with governments—repressive and otherwise—if they want to continue operating in those countries. Making sure they do so without angering activists, shareholders, US authorities, and foreign authorities is another matter entirely.And there it is. The bottom line - play the game or get off the field. We hear about the "repressive" Chinese bullying poor old Google, but what about the "progressive" French? They are all about keeping the big bad Yankee hi-tech companies honest. Microsoft, Intel, Google, Amazon and Yahoo have all felt the wrath of French lawsuits.
Also watch this space as Yahoo and AT&T lead the pack to lobby Congress for "pay to play" internet content providers. Make no mistake - big business has only one priority - make money. Nothing else counts or matters.

[pg_ord]

Deleted......Way off topic.

[Blue P]

Try posting "I love tibet" and let me know. p-) ... oh yes Indians can get away with saying "I love Prabhakaran" for example.

i love tibet, of course i do. do you not love other parts of your country?

"I love Prabhakaran" but no "i hate sonia ganhdi". wow, thats something interesting. no.1 democratic country for sure.

and now we are getting further and further from the topic, so if you want to know the other things about china, pm me please, my friend. :)

[pg_ord]

i love tibet, of course i do. do you not love other parts of your country?

"I love Prabhakaran" but no "i hate sonia ganhdi". wow, thats something interesting. no.1 democratic country for sure.

and now we are getting further and further from the topic, so if you want to know the other things about china, pm me please, my friend. :)
Did you even bother to read my previous posts. There is a big difference in saying "I hate Sonia Gandhi" and "I hate Sonia Gandhi, a lady Hitler". As usual twisting facts to suite your agenda. :roll:
Anyways why do you care about India so much. I mean really we talking about Google and China and since you claim Google was kicked out whats your problem now anyways? Google is out of China problem solved no?

[Lazy Lob]

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/6044/ttm143311ccrgbonl671993.jpg......
..............................................

[Ordie]

Google is out of China problem solved no?

Baidu stands to gain in the short term as a monopoly.
However, monopolies have no incentive to innovate and will suffer as a result.

[Solvent]

Besides Baidu, there are many similar websites. For example, Sogou.com must feel very excited now.

[pg_ord]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/technology/14google.html

In a world where vast amounts of personal information stored online can quickly reveal a network of friends and associates, Google’s move to protect individuals from government surveillance required quick action.In early January, Tenzin Seldon, a 20-year-old Stanford student and Tibetan activist, was told by university officials to contact Google because her Gmail account had been hacked.
Ms. Seldon, the Indian-born daughter of Tibetan refugees, said she immediately contacted David Drummond (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/david_c_drummond/index.html?inline=nyt-per), Google’s chief legal officer.
“David informed me that my account was hacked by someone in China,” Ms. Seldon said in a telephone interview. “They were concerned and asked whether they could see my laptop.”
Ms. Seldon immediately changed her password and became more careful of what she wrote. She also allowed Google to examine her personal computer at the company’s request. Google returned it this week, saying that while no viruses or malware had been detected, her account had indeed been entered surreptitiously.

[Blue P]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/technology/14google.html



Indian police beat man Google helped arrest (http://valleywag.gawker.com/344918/indian-police-beat-man-google-helped-arrest)

http://valleywag.com/assets/resources/2008/01/Goolag-thumb.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/phauly/100732484/)Remember the man Google and an Indian ISP helped Indian cops arrest (http://valleywag.com/tech/politics/google-helps-india-jail-the-wrong-guy-320818.php) for the crime of posting an allegedly defamatory picture on Orkut? He now says that during the 50 days he spent in jail, Indian police beat him and made him eat from the same bowl he used as a toilet.
The accused, Lakshmana Kailas K, has sued the ISP, Airtel, for more than $4 million, according to Techgoss (http://www.techgoss.com/fullstory.aspx?storyid=c22113522220011508011508%205:12:14%20AMS14347).
But thanks to the vagaries of Indian law, if Lakshmana has a case, it's not because he was arrested for an act the right to free speech should protect. It's because he was wrongly accused of that crime.
The story goes like this. After a Google user posted a profane picture of the Hindu saint Shivaji to Google's social network, Orkut, Indian authorities contacted Google to ask for his IP address. Google complied. Then, Indian cops took that information to the ISP, Airtel. Airtel handed over a physical address that it claimed corresponded with Google's data. But it was the wrong physical address, leading to Lakshmana Kailas K's subsequent arrest, harassment and beatings.
Here's the scary part. If Airtel had been more competent in its record-keeping, Indian authorities would have likely arrested and beaten the actual poster, and you'd never have heard about any of this.



you sure the attack was from china? she might be a gandhi hater too you know. or her neighbour is. :)

i guess i wouldn't be using google in china in any near future, nor in india.

[Holmes85]

This comes from: http://www.thebigmoney.com/blogs/feeling-lucky




Google's Finest Moment

By Chris Thompson (http://www.thebigmoney.com/users/christhompson)
Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 7:30am

Consider the solemnity Google (http://www.thebigmoney.com/search/quotemedia/goog)'s (GOOG) lawyer David Drummond used in the following statement (http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html). Consider how much money is at stake, and how much of Google's soul is on the line.
In the last two decades, China's economic reform programs and its citizens' entrepreneurial flair have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. Indeed, this great nation is at the heart of much economic progress and development in the world today.

We launched Google.cn in January 2006 in the belief that the benefits of increased access to information for people in China and a more open Internet outweighed our discomfort in agreeing to censor some results. At the time we made clear that 'we will carefully monitor conditions in China, including new laws and other restrictions on our services. If we determine that we are unable to achieve the objectives outlined we will not hesitate to reconsider our approach to China.

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.
The attacks Drummond refers to started last month when hackers from China hit Google with a "highly sophisticated and targeted" attempt to accomplish the "theft of intellectual property from Google." As Google's engineers investigated the hack, they realized that organizations in China had been trying to penetrate the security systems of at least 20 American companies in the following fields: finance; technology; media; chemicals; the Internet. Moreover, the hackers' main targets appeared to be the Gmail accounts of human rights activists who specialize in China.

For years, Google has swallowed the gorge of its toxic relationship with China, undermining its own ideals in the hope that information and constructive engagement will make the lives of Chinese citizens better, even as the company cashes in on ad revenues. For years, that deal has proven harder and harder to sell to the rest of the world, or perhaps even to Google's own employees. Now, with this latest and most provocative incident, the company's leaders have finally tried to live up to their motto.

This couldn't have been easy for Google. As the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/asia/13beijing.html?hp) put it, "While Google’s business in China is now small, analysts say that the country could soon become one of the most lucrative Internet and mobile markets, and a withdrawal would significantly reduce Google’s long-term growth."

In fact, this may well be the moment when Google's best and worst impulses come together in a grand moral drama. The company sits on piles of cash for now, but everyone knows that without China, the future is terminally uncertain. Google has done something remarkable today. We'll follow up with the consequences.



The Chinese Respond to Google's Move

By Chris Thompson (http://www.thebigmoney.com/users/christhompson)
Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 11:19am

Well, its leaders haven't. But Xinhua (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2010-01/13/content_12804080.htm), the official press organ of the Chinese government, just weighed in on Google's (http://www.thebigmoney.com/search/quotemedia/goog) (GOOG) announcement that it was discontinuing its practice of complying with government censorship and rethinking its Chinese operation entirely. The story leads with a report that government officials were seeking more information before making any public ****ouncements, mentions that some 700 employees would lose their jobs if Google leaves, and hands it over to Guo Ke, a communications professor at Shanghai University. Guo stated that the odds of Google leaving China were virtually nil, but that even if it did, the country would do just fine. "It will not make any difference to the government if Google quits China, however Google will suffer a huge economic loss from leaving the Chinese market," he said. "Chinese Internet users are the real victims if Google quits China. I think Google is just playing cat and mouse, and trying to use netizens' anger or disappointment as leverage."

Meanwhile, Marke****ch (http://www.marke****ch.com/story/tech-stocks-flat-as-google-slips-on-china-news-2010-01-13?reflink=MW_news_stmp) reports that Google's stock has fallen almost 2 percent so far today and is driving the Nasdaq to trade flat on the news. Industry analysts are torn between admiration and worry for the company's valuation. "While we commend Google's management for 'doing the right thing' on important issues of human rights and online censorship, the company's inability to participate in China's growth will be seen as a long-term negative, and therefore cause a valuation discount in the stock," Jeffries & Company analyst Youssef Squali wrote. Baidu, the main Chinese search engine and chief rival to Google, saw its stock rise 15 percent (http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/186812/the_cost_of_google_pulling_out_of_china.html) on Google's announcement.




White House: We Back Google All the Way

By Chris Thompson (http://www.thebigmoney.com/users/christhompson)
Posted Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 3:46pm

Although the 20 companies allegedly hacked by Chinese cybercriminals have yet to come forward, Google (http://www.thebigmoney.com/search/quotemedia/goog) (GOOG) has at least one entity in its corner: the U.S. government.

According to Agence France Presse (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hshVQCFb905pAEEjaNm3pqdzERgw), Obama spokesperson Robert Gibbs has confirmed that Google's representatives consulted with the White House about their present crisis with the Chinese government and that the Obama administration backs the company's commitment to free speech. "The right of a free Internet is what many of you heard the president talk about in China, taking a question over the Internet about the freedom of the Internet, something he talked about there," Gibbs told the White House press corps. Gibbs added that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had asked Beijing to explain how Chinese hackers had so systematically targeted American companies. "We look forward to the response from the Chinese," he concluded.

Clinton also issued her own statement on Google and China (http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/01/135105.htm).


Google Vs. China: Day Three

By Chris Thompson (http://www.thebigmoney.com/users/christhompson)
Posted Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 11:32am

When Google's (http://www.thebigmoney.com/search/quotemedia/goog) (GOOG) top guys decided to confront China over censorship and a spate of cyberattacks originating from that country, they surely knew that the Chinese government wouldn't back down and that the ultimatum would inevitably mean they would have to leave the country. And sure enough, ******* (http://in.*******.com/article/technologyNews/idINIndia-45387920100114?sp=true) reports that China's State Council Information Office minister Wang Chen has steadfastly reiterated his country's policy on censorship and the Internet. Although Chen never mentioned Google by name, he insisted that China would continue to keep the Internet from fostering opinions deemed unhealthy by the state. "We must make truly improving our capacity to guide opinion on the Internet a major measure for protecting Internet security," Chen declared.
Our country is at a crucial stage of reform and development, and this is a period of marked social conflicts. ... Properly guiding Internet opinion is a major measure for protecting Internet information security. Internet media must always make nurturing positive, progressive mainstream opinion an important duty. Currently, the Internet gives space for spreading rumours and issuing false information and other actions that diminish confidence, and this is causing serious damage to society and the public interest.
So much for China backing down. But then, the Wall Street Journal reports, the three men at the top of Google knew what they were in for. In a fascinating piece published this morning (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704675104575001281662251848.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond), but available only to Journal subscribers, Jessica Vascellaro reports that Larry Page, Sergey Brin, and Eric Schmidt debated how to respond to the hacks for weeks. As you might expect, Schmidt was the most cautious of the three, arguing that over the long term, Google's role in sharing information would go a long way toward liberalizing the country. But Brin would have none of it in the end. His childhood in Russia left him particularly antagonistic toward authoritarian governments, and Brin had long been confiding to friends that cooperating with censorship left him feeling guilty and sick. He put his foot down. Although it's not entirely clear, the three men may have felt particularly exasperated by a "conspiracy" of silence among American companies doing business in China, in which these firms put up with constant government provocations and piracy epidemics in order to access the emerging market for consumer goods.

And sure enough, it looks like Google will stand alone on this issue. A Yahoo (http://www.thebigmoney.com/search/quotemedia/yhoo) (YHOO) spokesman offered a statement of support for Google, but according to the Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3fce5488-0075-11df-b50b-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss), the rest of Silicon Valley appeared content to work with China on the country's terms. Microsoft (http://www.thebigmoney.com/search/quotemedia/msft) (MSFT) CEO Steve Ballmer dismissed Google's complaints and said, "Every large institution is being hacked. I don’t think it’s a fundamental change in the security environment on the internet." Hewlett-Packard (http://www.thebigmoney.com/search/quotemedia/hpq) (HPQ) boss Mark Hurd agreed, emphasizing how important Chinese demand for electronics has been for the American economy.

Still, it doesn't look like Google has taken a major hit so far. The company's stock is still hovering around $590, right where it was before the announcement. But CNBC's Jim Goldman made a very important point yesterday: It's not in search that Google has to worry about China—it's in mobile smartphones, the very industry Google appears to believe will remake communications in the future. Motorola and Samsung are both releasing Android phones to the Chinese market, which is easily going to be the largest in the world if it isn't already. Google may have just jeopardized the very industry that will determine its future earnings. Goldman writes (http://www.cnbc.com/id/34845692):
Ask many China experts about the government and you'll hear a couple of consistent trends: The State doesn't forget; and the State can be very vindictive. If Google angers the Chinese political machine enough, that machine might sanction anything with Google's fingerprints on it. Is it realistic to think that China could issue some kinds of access restrictions on phones running software from Google? Absolutely, say the experts I'm talking to.
Chris Thompson is a writer living in Brooklyn.

[acosta]

have been closely watch what's happening. at the moment it seems that google get a backlash.

friends told me things are pretty weird from the beginning. baidu was attacked by irani cyber army right before google's announcement. this obvious grabbed the kodak moment and make google the unimportant supporting actor.

chinese forum(which signal the free opinion as seen by western media) are mixed by google's leave. but the new development is clearly at odds with google. more people shocked by baidu's incident start blame google.

google's supporters quote google a coward though, the patriots are saying google's announcement bluntly gossip the government's regulations(censorship), by which google stands with the west politicians.(that's the worst thing, as governments are all evil).

the mainstream opinion is by google's announcement, it brags itself a human right fighter, a righteous judge, which obvously annoy more people.

tune in, fantastic play is on.

[Russianlynxy]

how many more posts are we going to see about Google and China.

it's really not that big of a deal. Not worth 10 simultaneous threads...

[acosta]

how many more posts are we going to see about Google and China.

it's really not that big of a deal. Not worth 10 simultaneous threads...

at least this thread is written originally by poster, not a copy click plus a paste click.

copyright reserved, mp.net.

[plato]

at least copyright is "somewhat" respected in the West. Compared to China.

[acosta]

at least copyright is "somewhat" respected in the West. Compared to China.

yeah, you remind me that google has been in talk's with one chinese writers copyright association, its online chinese library plan been paused by court for copyright infraction, that might also contribute to the showdown?

[vinny_121_ND]

hahahaha, chinese knockoffs. Will never forget the time when Trijicon flipped out when their ACOG knockoffs were being sold a few booths away.

Whatever, Google rules, if the chinese government doesn't like it, so what.

[plato]

See! told you copyright is respected. That is why there is the showdown

[acosta]

hahahaha, chinese knockoffs. Will never forget the time when Trijicon flipped out when their ACOG knockoffs were being sold a few booths away.

Whatever, Google rules, if the chinese government doesn't like it, so what.

so fight to survive, do the founders know they have 30 million users in china? that's rather selfish. that's the real backlash.

[cn_habs]

Doesn't Echelon violate and intercerpt everything without 99% of the inhabitants' knowledge besides anything involving Skype? What does the Patriot Act do? :lol:

Regardless, Google is going to lose this their so-called ethical war against the CCP unless its CEO formally apologizes or gets out the Chinese market. Just let the stockholders decide...

[vinny_121_ND]

well, the knockoff company got their asses kicked out of the convention. 30 million is nothing, they'll fight to survive like using other internet search engines like yahoo and use yahoo mail. Chinese users understand the dilemma, their government needs to chill with all these restrictions. It's impossible to censor the internet. Iran tried it, and failed miserably.

[acosta]

well, the knockoff company got their asses kicked out of the convention. 30 million is nothing, they'll fight to survive like using other internet search engines like yahoo and use yahoo mail. Chinese users understand the dilemma, their government needs to chill with all these restrictions. It's impossible to censor the internet. Iran tried it, and failed miserably.

i would say what google's leave hurts is the innovation spirits google briing there, which would benefit chinese people a lot.

and the defacto monopoly by baidu

[domokun]

As Patriot-act has been mentioned, I have heard that some technology companies don't carry sensitive information to USA and have policy of removing any sensitive business or IP material from laptops and cell phones of personnel visiting even their own US subsidiaries. In other words they prefer to only transport information only out from USA.

Good for Chinese government if google leaves.

[Blue P]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=ax3R._M1rgys


Google Denies Media Reports on Closure of China Site, Office
(javascript:togShareLinks('shr_v');)[/URL]


By Wing-Gar Cheng


Jan. 16 (Bloomberg) -- [URL="http://www.militaryphotos.net/apps/quote?ticker=GOOG%3AUS"]Google Inc. (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#), operator of the world’s most-popular Internet search engine, denied media reports that it has decided to shut Google.cn (http://www.google.cn/) site and close its China office.
Hong Kong’s Chinese-language newspaper Sing Tao Daily (http://www.singtao.com/) reported Google has made the decision to close its China office, citing a mainland Chinese Web site (http://www.ccidcom.com/) sponsored by a government ministry.
Google earlier this week said it would no longer censor search results on its Web site in China and is considering shutting down Google.cn and closing its offices there. The company came to the decision after a “highly sophisticated” attack on its computer system and evidence that human-rights activists were targeted.
Today, Google is operating its business as usual in China and is still censoring search results on Google.cn, a spokeswoman, who declined to be identified, said. Its employees in China are still going to work, she said.
Sing Tao cited ccidcom.com (http://www.ccidcom.com/html/yaowen/201001/15-91949.html), which is sponsored by the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (http://www.miit.gov.cn/), as saying employees at Google China would be paid six months’ salary as compensation.
The story was not accessible on the ccidcom.com’s Web site this morning.
To contact the reporter on this story: Wing-Gar Cheng (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Wing-Gar+Cheng&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) in Hong Kong at wgcheng@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: January 16, 2010 00:28 EST

pffffffff........

'human right guardian' turned out to be a pussy. ending a drama like this is really disappointing, my dear google.

[cn_habs]

pffffffff........

'human right guardian' turned out to be a pussy. ending a drama like this is really disappointing, my dear google.

Did someone on MP really believe for a second that Google didn't feed that "threat" to boost its own image? When they see the dollar sign, everything else becomes secondary. Not many were born yesterday...at least I hope not.

[pg_ord]

pffffffff........

'human right guardian' turned out to be a pussy. ending a drama like this is really disappointing, my dear google.
oh wait I thought google was kicked out 9 months ago or something. p-)

[cn_habs]

oh wait I thought google was kicked out 9 months ago or something. p-)

Kicked out? It never owned enough market share to begin with. Then why would someone believe this Google bs declaration in the first place? Just go to previous pages to see what some posters wrote. :lol:

Personally, I wouldn't come on here to talk about it with limited knowledge on this specific matter.

[pg_ord]

Kicked out? It never owned enough market share to begin with. Then why would someone believe this Google bs declaration in the first place? Just go to previous pages to see what some posters wrote. :lol:

Personally, I wouldn't come on here to talk about it with limited knowledge on this specific matter.
IOW there was never any problems to begin with. This was all a western propaganda to begin with to shame China, which failed. Good for china. :-)

[cn_habs]

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/111657-google_china-0

one dog cannot serve two master. How to follow the Chinese way when it already has a master in the CIA.

[plato]

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/111657-google_china-0

one dog cannot serve two master. How to follow the Chinese way when it already has a master in the CIA.

who do you follow? Canada or China?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/111657-google_china-0

one dog cannot serve two master. How to follow the Chinese way when it already has a master in the CIA.Your quoting Pravda which is an epic fail. p-)

[cn_habs]

who do you follow? Canada or China?

I work for neither of them and live my own life. You wouldn't want to get a PM for derailing the subject would you? What's the subject again? :lol:

[cn_habs]

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Foremski/?p=1049


If you wanted to hack into a popular web service and collect data on its users what would be the best strategy?
You could secretly spread millins of infected links around the Internet that download spyware and then silently collect that data and analyze it.
That’s the hard way. Easier: Hack into a system that is already collecting that user data.
That’s what the Chinese hackers did to Google. They managed to get into its ‘internal intercept’ system, this is its internal spying system that automatically collects data on its users so that it can rapidly comply with the many search warrants it receives. When Google found out about the hack it went ballistic.

Here is IDG reporter Robert McMillan with a report (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9144221/Google_attack_part_of_widespread_spying_effort?):
…they [hackers] apparently were able to access a system used to help Google comply with search warrants by providing data on Google users, said a source familiar with the situation, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak with the press. “Right before Christmas, it was, ‘Holy s***, this malware is accessing the internal intercept [systems],’” he said.
Google co-founder Larry Page called an emergency meeting on Christmas Eve to assess the situation and decided that Google could walk away from China because of what happened.
Google was pissed that the Chinese hackers hacked into its internal spying system. Those hackers were trying to get data on ALL Google users, not just Chinese human rights activists.
Google exposed all of its users precisely because it had an internal spying system.
One of my readers, Kimo Crossman, pointed out that “wiretapping systems increase attack vectors.”
This is very true. Wiretapping systems increase security risks because the target is perfect — wiretap the wiretapper. That’s the honeypot. Why buzz around collecting all that data when someone else has done it for you?
Google’s ‘internal intercept’ system increased the risk of Google user data being pirated. If it didn’t exist it would be very hard for outsiders to collect it.
The irony that wiretapping systems increase security risk is interesting, and it makes perfect sense. But why is Google invoking ‘human rights’ as a pretext for possibly leaving China when it was embarrassed by its internal spying system being compromised . . . by other spies?
I wonder if MS uses something similar too...I hope not.

[pg_ord]

I work for neither of them and live my own life. You wouldn't want to get a PM for derailing the subject would you? What's the subject again? :lol:
Google can claim the same you know. Just sayin'. ;)

[plato]

I work for neither of them and live my own life. You wouldn't want to get a PM for derailing the subject would you? What's the subject again? :lol:

good response. The subject is about google trying to make money.

[Eventine]

For a company with a high profile such as Google threatening to pull out, its sends a message to the other high tech companies that business in China is not worth the risks.

It also says that there is a greater market than China with India and the rest of the world.

This could be a good thing. I've long since questioned the "received wisdom" of letting foreign companies control most of your economy. Not that I'm an economic nationalist by any means, but judging by the way the USG has moved to protect native corporations, as of late, there's no reason to expect other countries to do any less. Countries like Japan and Korea have prospered largely because they were able to create native companies and brands that now compete at the international level. China must do the same; it cannot rely on playing second fiddle to foreign names.