Vietnam Sniper Question?

[MN_Air]

On another non-military forum I frequent, there is a discussion on whether these two ex-marine snipers are either lying about being snipers, or are ignorant of some things.

Basically the question is, if a sniper trained for the Vietnam conflict, would he know that the calibre of a bullet means its diameter? The two people in question both said length.

We are debating whether it would have been something that was taught in a sniper school (calibre meaning) or wasn't really of much importance.

EDIT:

Also, was there an M16 DMR during the vietnam conflict? I find it hard to believe that there was because of the infancy of the rifle, but the two men in question say they used an M16 as their rifle.

[jklv]

Not to be disrespectful or anything like that, I know a veteran from that war. He has made mistakes when naming calibers and weapon names as well. Just remember that age takes it's toll and it's been more than 40 years since he was in combat.

[Winger]

I've been taught both ways and with regards to artillery/gunnery but it has a different meaning with hand held weapons. So, caliber can be the ratio between width and length of the barrel, it can be the weight of the shot, or the width of the round; dependent on context. Now, if they are getting mixed up and saying that caliber is just the length? Well, that's only half right on one of 3 possibilities. Gotta toss out the BS flag on this one. Other Marine's here can testify that no matter how old you get there are some things you will not forget.

[Hollis]

Ask them what there MOS was, what unit they where in and what year. Division Snipers had Bolt guns. on a company end, a company sniper was not a trained or MOSed sniper, more in the the line of a Designated Marksman. He would have a M14 with iron sights. I run this pass another friend.

[MN_Air]

Thanks for all the information! What would have been the calibre of the bolt action gun? I know that the M14 is .308, but I am curious about the bolt rifle. Also, what were the rifles that were used?

[LineDoggie]

As to an M16 DMR (or what we today see as a typical DMR platform), doubtful on anything other than an adhoc basis. IIRC Frankford Arsenal started in 67 to develop a reflex sight system and finally finished in 75. In 1967 384 Colt "Realist" Scopes (3-9X)were incountry with USARV for evaluation. This all goes for regular units, USSF, MACV-SOG obviously could get whatever they desired comparitively speaking. I read a Book about an Army officer who was an ARVN Advisor and pictures show him with a scoped M16A1 that he purchased himself.

[Hollis]

Thanks for all the information! What would have been the calibre of the bolt action gun? I know that the M14 is .308, but I am curious about the bolt rifle. Also, what were the rifles that were used?


30-06. Rifles where either Remingtons or Winchesters. This is from memory. I sent a Email to a friend who enlisted before me and retired as a Sgt Maj. I will post his reply after I receive it.

[Jacknola]

Well re: scoped M-16s.... when I finally was issued an M-16 after being in country for 4 months or so... I "found" a small scope made for the M-16, that I put on my weapon for a while. Damn if I could tell you what it was, or where it came from or its make, model, etc. I can tell you it did not have a "crosshairs" when you looked through the lens, but instead had a kind of black line post projection, kind of like an iron sight ... for some reason I remember it extending down from the top of the lens.

I couldn't hit a dog at pont blank with it ... never did get it zeroed, or properly, centered so I took it off. I may have a picture somewhere.

Keep something in mind about all wars. The guys that are finghting them are not weapons, equipment, clothing gurus. You guys, much later, are much more expert about all that stuff than the guys who were actually doing it. For instance, I have extensively studied the actions of the 508th PIR in Normandy. When I interveiw troopers who were actually there, I know a LOT more about what they did and where they went then they do. So... I ask questions such as "what color were your undershirts?"... etc.

In Vietnam, I had no idea that there where several different "patterns" of jungle fatigues... or several styles of tiger fatigues, or whatever. I probably could not tell you what the "caliber" of an M-14 (which I trained with) or an M-16 was, much less an M-1 (which I used in ROTC in college). I've had experts relatively recently tell me that I was mistaken about using a BAR belt for my personal field kit because "pictures did not back that up." I can assure you, we all tried to secure a BAR belt as fast as we could... and they were carefullly passed down to to the next SF replacement that you particularly liked.

I cannot answer anything about a "marine sniper" or conventional TO&E organization. A lot of Viet organization was improvizational. I wonder if an official org chart for "the Marine combat platoon" shows a position of "sniper." Probably not... but that doesn't mean exclude the case that sometimes certain good-shooting men were sent out to a hidden remote outpost to "snipe" and scoot.

I can tell you this... a lot of such "missions" were inanely dreamed up by someone in an air-conditioned headquarters as a "bright idea." And sometimes the men assigned to such "bright idea" missions went 500 m into the hills, found a convenient RON and slept for a day or two, carefully perserving their hide (pun intended).

Now VERY INTERESTING for understanding war in Vietnam. Go to this site, page down a bit and read the daily action reports of a battalion of the 4th Infantry in May-June 1968 near Dak To - Ben Het. You will begin to understand the nature of the war.

http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/1683/168300010327.pdf

Maps are avialable here:

http://www.rjsmith.com/topo_map.html#toumorong

I may make this a separate post.

[Hollis]

Marines snipers where issued Remington 700 only and the spotter a M14, That was TO from the the Marine Corps. Also what was strange was that the could not remember what 7.62 meant. Maybe because of age or ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


It is possible they could have picked up something unusual but it would not have been issued. DMR was not a Marine term. My source retired after 29 years in the Corps.

[MN_Air]

Thank you for the fantastic replies! I will definitely be checking out those links you posted Jack!

Also, Hollis, would it be alright if I quoted post number 4 from this thread and pasted it into the thread on the other forum? It seems like the only way to find out if they are lying or not is to ask them those questions!

[Hollis]

Sure, go ahead.

[skyeye]

DMR was not a Marine term. My source retired after 29 years in the Corps.

DMR must be a recent designation, not from Viet Nam era.

Designated Marksman is also an Army designation. Due to the Iraq experience, the Army is increasing Designiated Marksmen to have one per company, and working toward having more. Sort of a sniper lite.

Being just an old Army doggie, I had to Google DMR and found this:

The United States Marine Corps Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR, NSN 1005-01-458-6235; more formally the United States Rifle, 7.62 mm, M14, DMR) is a semi-automatic, gas-operated rifle chambered for the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. It is a modified version of the M14 rifle built and utilized by the United States Marine Corps (USMC).

The DMR is issued with match-grade M118LR 175-grain Long Range ammunition. The "basic" DMR (i.e., without secondary sight, magazine, sling, basic issue items, cleaning gear, suppressor and bipod) weighs 11 pounds (5 kg) or less. The DMR design allows the sight mount, barrel, bolt, and other key assemblies to be repaired or replaced at the third echelon maintenance level. All DMRs are built at the USMC Precision Weapons Shop at Quantico, Virginia.

[JUNKHO]

A friend served in N/75 LRRP with the 173rd at English in 1969. He was sent to in-country sniper school at (?Vung Tau?) for a week or so. Said the school was great and the training and shoots were excellent. Sent him back to the unit with a M-14 all tricked out. Says the last he saw of it was the day he got back and someone took it and put it in a conex for storage. He said he was never on a sniper mission, but believes the other teams pulled some. Says "I thought" they used bolt action rifles.

[Hollis]

Skyeye, thanks for the update.

[California Joe]

It's been a long time since I read the book but I'm pretty sure Gunny Hathcock was using a Winchester Model 70 target model in 30.06 caliber with match grade ammo and a Unertl target scope. I think the guy that set up the Marine Corps sniper school during Vietnam was a Colonel named E. J. Land

[Hollis]

It's been a long time since I read the book but I'm pretty sure Gunny Hathcock was using a Winchester Model 70 target model in 30.06 caliber with match grade ammo and a Unertl target scope. I think the guy that set up the Marine Corps sniper school during Vietnam was a Colonel named E. J. Land


I believe your correct on the Gunny. IMHO the Corps did it best to save money, one way to get something was to steal it from the Army. Problem is memory, It can get muddled over time, especially if that time is more than 5 minutes.

[California Joe]

I think James has one of those Model 70s. I have a couple of books on Marine snipers written by a guy named Peter Senich. He has every configuration of sniper rifles and the quantities and when they were issued etc. Kinda dry reading but interesting to gun nuts...

[Hollis]

One of the mod the Marines did to the Remington 700s was to remove the mag and add the Winchester mag. From what I heard it preformed better. The other scope I remember is the Redfield. How accurate that is, I don't know. We never had any snipers, that I remember, assigned to my unit. I talked with Bob, at the battle of Dai Do, he knew the sniper there and has kept in touch with him. He had something like 30+ kills. (http://www.174ahc.org/daido.htm + http://www.combatwife.net/golf24marines.htm) Bob was a MGer there.

[LineDoggie]

Somewhere, I have a 1965 issue of American Rifleman with the results of the National Matches in it.

I used to love showing dudes the Wimbeldon Cup Match winner

L/Cpl Carlo Hathcock

[LAMMMACV]

I thought they were 7.62 x59 but time takes a toll, there slightly different at the neck verses the .308. I had a .22mag center fire I was given to me 66 in Siagon prior to going to Thiland for a short stay upon return was given a m14 w/silincer nice weapon and 1st gen night scope left in 68