Google Has More Guts Than the U.S. Government

[Ordie]

Google Has More Guts Than the U.S. Government
What the four-stars are reading -- a weekly column from Small Wars Journal.

BY ROBERT HAD**** | JANUARY 15, 2010

Google goes where the U.S. government has feared to tread

In a dramatic statement posted on the company's official blog this week, Google sparked a confrontation with the Chinese government that will likely end with the company exiting the Chinese market. Google's statement all but accuses the Chinese government of "a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure." The Chinese government has long been suspected of directly performing, or facilitating proxies to perform, a wide range of cyberwarfare activities. Google's forceful response against the Chinese government has gone further than the U.S. government, a daily large-scale victim of cyberattacks, has ever gone. The Pentagon's forthcoming Quadrennial Defense Review will likely feature discussions concerning "high-end asymmetric threats" such as cyberwarfare; but ironically it is a private company that is taking action against the Chinese government, a leading high- end asymmetric threat. Finally, Google's decision to likely abandon China could reveal a major crack in China's authoritarian model for economic growth and development.

Google stated that the attacks targeted at least 20 other large companies and the email accounts used by prominent Chinese human rights activists. The company did not directly accuse the Chinese government of these attacks, but its response indicates that it believes the Chinese government is responsible. If Google thought the culprits were lone-wolf Chinese computer hobbyists or cybercriminals, one would think that their response would have called on the Chinese government to police lawless behavior. In this case, it has obviously concluded that it is the government itself that is lawless.

Google has shown the courage to name the villain and accept the consequences for doing so. This is more than the U.S. government has ever done, in spite of many years of regular cyberattacks from China and Russia. Belatedly, and only after Google had acted, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton issued a four-sentence statement calling on the Chinese government to explain its actions.
More:ttp://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/15/this_week_at_war_google_has_more_guts_than_the_us_government?page=full

[Mencius]

The German government has advised people not to use IE. It's most likely related to recent alleged "Chinese" hackers mentioned in another article than the one I posted.

http://thenextweb.com/europe/2010/01/15/germany-giving-internet-explorer-boot-due-security-flaws/

[pg_ord]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/world/asia/15diplo.html

It managed to gain access to a computer in Taiwan that it suspected of being the source of the attacks. Peering inside that machine, company engineers actually saw evidence of the aftermath of the attacks, not only at Google, but also at at least 33 other companies, including Adobe Systems (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/adobe_systems_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org), Northrop Grumman (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/northrop_grumman_corporation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and Juniper Networks, according to a government consultant who has spoken with the investigators.I would assume nobody in the right mind would connect a Northrop Grumman computer with company secrets on to the internet or would they? serious question. :|

[Invisigoth]

Google doesn't have more guts than anyone. They didn't have the guts to refuse the censorship in the first place and now they are making a big marketing move in anticipation of closing their stagnant China business. (correction: not stagnant, but by and large not as stellar as elsewhere)

If they had guts they wouldn't have agreed to censor in the first place, "do no evil" my a$$.

[MaNiC]

Google doesn't have more guts than anyone. They didn't have the guts to refuse the censorship in the first place and now they are making a big marketing move in anticipation of closing their stagnant China business.

If they had guts they wouldn't have agreed to censor in the first place, "do no evil" my a$$.

Yea but then they wouldn't have had an opportunity to negotiate with the Chinese government to try to convince them to change their ways when it comes to the internet and human rights. They simply wouldn't have entertained Google's ideas and in fact could have pointed to such posturing as "evidence" that the US through proxies is somehow trying to meddle in internal affairs. There's nothing wrong with trying the diplomatic route first. I commend Google for what they have tried to accomplish.

[pg_ord]

Google doesn't have more guts than anyone. They didn't have the guts to refuse the censorship in the first place and now they are making a big marketing move in anticipation of closing their stagnant China business.

If they had guts they wouldn't have agreed to censor in the first place, "do no evil" my a$$.
Not to disagree with you completely, what you said is a possibility, but it is also quite possible that they went in with the mindset that censoring of content would reduce gradually as time progressed. I guess Chinese hectoring interfered way too much in their day to day operations.

[Delay]

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/01/google-islam-censorship/

[pg_ord]

^
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/006070.html ;)

Understand what I am showing you here? Either by their own decision or at someone’s request, Google is actively suppressing its own suggestions feature when someone types in “Islam is…” None of the other religions seem to get such special treatment. Interestingly, the suggestions are also suppressed if someone types in “Christians are,” “Hindus are,” “Muslims are,” etc. My point? This sort of selective suppression is incredibly stupid. People, however bigoted in their intentions, should be able to search for anything they want. This is akin to a form of censorship in my view. It is also kind of patronizing. Does Google think followers of Islam need extra shielding from bad intentions? I don’t want this same treatment given to the other religions either. I should be able to search for hateful terms if I want to.

[Nano]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/world/asia/15diplo.html
I would assume nobody in the right mind would connect a Northrop Grumman computer with company secrets on to the internet or would they? serious question. :|
Sometimes they are delivered hard copy as well.lol
Almost every major U.S defense company has the same problem. Boeing just seems to hand IP out like candy at times. The best company thus far as I could tell/know on this issue is Lockheed Martin. There definitely needs to be an FBI investigation into how these defense companies handle IP given that most of it is tax payer paid/funded/subsidized and is of vital importance to the defense of the nation.

[dttk0009]

Not to disagree with you completely, what you said is a possibility, but it is also quite possible that they went in with the mindset that censoring of content would reduce gradually as time progressed. I guess Chinese hectoring interfered way too much in their day to day operations.
Bullcrap. Google is still actively blocking content on youtube in Thailand that the Thai government deems 'offensive'. They've been playing the censorship game for a good number of years now and not just in China. To me it is pretty obvious that they'll do whatever they can for to turn a profit, but hey, it's a corporation.

[cn_habs]

More:ttp://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/15/this_week_at_war_google_has_more_guts_than_the_us_government?page=full

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/111657-google_china-0
http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/15/baidu-china-search-intelligent-technology-google.html?boxes=Homepagechannels
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Foremski/?p=1049

Do you believe that anyone who possesses enough common sense and background knowledge would believe this Ordie type of propaganda? Of course, it's because of censorship!! :lol:

[cn_habs]

On a sidenote, anyone who uses Chrome, Picasa and other Google-made software should be aware of what GoogleUpdaterService does in the background....

[Clockwinder]

But Ordie - this means (HORRORS) that (GASP) the Bush Administration was at fault too!! Oh say it ain't so Oh Right Winged One.

[pg_ord]

Bullcrap. Google is still actively blocking content on youtube in Thailand that the Thai government deems 'offensive'. They've been playing the censorship game for a good number of years now and not just in China. To me it is pretty obvious that they'll do whatever they can for to turn a profit, but hey, it's a corporation.
Yeah may be, but once you have a government which hacks into email accounts of people in far off countries you begin to draw a line. It will affect profits, google has to bother about its clients privacy. Any decent company would. Freedom and good business go hand in hand. ;)

[budgie]

Unfortunately over issues such as trade, human rights and finance the US has been a bit of a sissy toward China for the past decade or more. The last time I saw anyone truly stand up to them was in 1996 when Clinton sent carriers to show support for Taiwan's free elections.

[vinny_121_ND]

I don't get the point of the chinese hackers. It's like vandalism, small scale terrorism if you don't bend over backwards to accommodate their communist ideology.

[cn_habs]

I don't get the point of the chinese hackers. It's like vandalism, small scale terrorism if you don't bend over backwards to accommodate their communist ideology.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Foremski/?p=1049


Google, the biggest information "gatherer" on the planet, wasn't the only victim.

[Clockwinder]

I don't get the point of the chinese hackers. It's like vandalism, small scale terrorism if you don't bend over backwards to accommodate their communist ideology.
Huh? They steal CODE dude - then Phish your ID and other info or clone the programs and load them with sleeper viruses or bot Malware. They can blackmail the companies involved, and the users they have data for. They can clone identities and flood other government and business sites and clog hubs. It's business terrorism and a National Security Threat.

[vinny_121_ND]

Huh? They steal CODE dude - then Phish your ID and other info or clone the programs and load them with sleeper viruses or bot Malware. They can blackmail the companies involved, and the users they have data for. They can clone identities and flood other government and business sites and clog hubs. It's business terrorism and a National Security Threat.


http://blogs.zdnet.com/Foremski/?p=1049

Google, the biggest information "gatherer" on the planet, wasn't the only victim.

Really? That I did not know. I thought it was, in retaliation to any site who was pro Tibet and pro Dalai Lama. I'm so glad google got out of China.

[pg_ord]

Google would care two hoots about tibet. They are there to do business. If the CCP starts interfering in day to day activities by hacking in to email accounts and affecting business, they would obviously be inclined to walk.

[dttk0009]

Google would care two hoots about tibet. They are there to do business. If the CCP starts interfering in day to day activities by hacking in to email accounts and affecting business, they would obviously be inclined to walk.
Very true, but only if they started seeing losses, and considering the market size and their share in that market in China I doubt they'll be leaving any time soon.

[pg_ord]

Very true, but only if they started seeing losses, and considering the market size and their share in that market in China I doubt they'll be leaving any time soon.

It is not really as big as the rest of the world combined. There are no copyright laws as far as CCP is concerned, google would lose technological edge due to industrial espionage in a society controlled by Chinese govt. Which company would risk it?

[dttk0009]

It is not really as big as the rest of the world combined. There are no copyright laws as far as CCP is concerned, google would lose technological edge due to industrial espionage in a society controlled by Chinese govt. Which company would risk it?
Google. Industrial espionage via the internet is not limited to China by any means. To step out of the market because of that would be naive, in my opinion. The government wants absolute control of the content that is allowed to its citizens (the same as Thailand) and as long as Google obliges with their requests there won't be a problem.

[Universal_Soldier]

Google doesn't have more guts than anyone. They didn't have the guts to refuse the censorship in the first place and now they are making a big marketing move in anticipation of closing their stagnant China business. (correction: not stagnant, but by and large not as stellar as elsewhere)

If they had guts they wouldn't have agreed to censor in the first place, "do no evil" my a$$.

what are you talking about? it's a marketing move to leave china?? Business potential in China is huge and leaving that market will be spell doom for Google down the line. I think they'll work something out in the end however.

[pg_ord]

Google. Industrial espionage via the internet is not limited to China by any means. To step out of the market because of that would be naive, in my opinion. The government wants absolute control of the content that is allowed to its citizens (the same as Thailand) and as long as Google obliges with their requests there won't be a problem.
Then why did CCP have to hack into a e-mail account of a student in US? Student was tibetan activist. It is here the CCP's hectoring comes into picture and clashes with Google's business interests and this combined with industrial espionage and lack of respect for copyright by CCP, that can have deadly implication for google's survival as a company worldwide. It is not a pretty situation to be in. It might be prudent to cut your losses by moving out.

[BlackFlag]

Google doesn't have more guts than anyone. They didn't have the guts to refuse the censorship in the first place and now they are making a big marketing move in anticipation of closing their stagnant China business. (correction: not stagnant, but by and large not as stellar as elsewhere)

If they had guts they wouldn't have agreed to censor in the first place, "do no evil" my a$$.

Word.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[dttk0009]

Then why did CCP have to hack into a e-mail account of a student in US? Student was tibetan activist. It is here the CCP's hectoring comes into picture and clashes with Google's business interests and this combined with industrial espionage and lack of respect for copyright by CCP, that can have deadly implication for google's survival as a company worldwide. It is not a pretty situation to be in. It might be prudent to cut your losses by moving out.
Ah ok, I see what you mean now. This is true, but I believe that exposure and general knowledge of these attacks are going to stay at a minimum which is beneficial for Google. Once we see that there is public outrage over their actions they might change course, but until then they will do whatever is necessary to maintain the image of a morally upstanding, ethical and all American freedom supporting corporation, and for a lot of people that's enough to garner support.

[pg_ord]

Ah ok, I see what you mean now. This is true, but I believe that exposure and general knowledge of these attacks are going to stay at a minimum which is beneficial for Google. Once we see that there is public outrage over their actions they might change course, but until then they will do whatever is necessary to maintain the image of a morally upstanding, ethical and all American freedom supporting corporation, and for a lot of people that's enough to garner support.
Ah well that is the whole point, to keep these intrusions to the minimum. Who knows may be something good will come out of it for both the Chinese people and to google if a deal is reached. ;)

[sujithkochi]

More:ttp://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/15/this_week_at_war_google_has_more_guts_than_the_us_government?page=full

Simple - because Google doesnt have to adhere to International rules of Diplomacy unlike the US govt

[cn_habs]

Really? That I did not know. I thought it was, in retaliation to any site who was pro Tibet and pro Dalai Lama. I'm so glad google got out of China.


If you wanted to hack into a popular web service and collect data on its users what would be the best strategy?
You could secretly spread millins of infected links around the Internet that download spyware and then silently collect that data and analyze it.
That’s the hard way. Easier: Hack into a system that is already collecting that user data.
That’s what the Chinese hackers did to Google. They managed to get into its ‘internal intercept’ system, this is its internal spying system that automatically collects data on its users so that it can rapidly comply with the many search warrants it receives. When Google found out about the hack it went ballistic.
I wonder why no important media paper/publisher dared to write some headlines in the lines of: the biggest user-data spying engine upset at hackers? Or the so-called human rights defending wiretapper wiretapped:lol:

[cn_habs]

I Guess Google will simply have to comply whatever they are told to do to stay in business. In the business world, their CEO will be forced to resign before he pulls the corporation out of the Chinese market for good. The CCP has been accused for the same things for decades now and won't change its stance, especially after this marketing campaign of Google's.

[IconOfEvi]

Invisigoth said it. This is pure spin. Admirable business skills, but they really don't - they went charging into the PRC in the first place, and agreed to censor their results. They just understand they'll never beat Baidu. They weighed business vs marketing ploy, and this side finally won out.

Ultra cynicism is off now.

[Ordie]

I Guess Google will simply have to comply whatever they are told to do to stay in business. In the business world, their CEO will be forced to resign before he pulls the corporation out of the Chinese market for good. The CCP has been accused for the same things for decades now and won't change its stance, especially after this marketing campaign of Google's.

It's not just google that is getting frustrated, but many other corporations that are fed up with violations of intellectual property rights through industrial espionage, cyber attacks, and protectionism of Chinese state-owned businesses.

In a normal country, these actions are settled in court under the rule of law. The fact of the matter is that China is lawless.
Corporations are just tired of shooting arrows at straw boats to arm the competition.

My brother once worked at a major American based software corporation in Latin America. Every time he would try to sell a product, the Chinese company would offer an exact copy at a fraction of the cost. Much of it was stolen technology.

If China wants to be respected in the world, then it should, stop cheating, stop stealing, stop copying, and start innovating the old fashion way...trial and error...and taking risks.

[cn_habs]

It's not just google that is getting frustrated, but many other corporations that are fed up with violations of intellectual property rights through industrial espionage, cyber attacks, and protectionism of Chinese state-owned businesses.

In a normal country, these actions are settled in court under the rule of law. The fact of the matter is that China is lawless.
Corporations are just tired of shooting arrows at straw boats to arm the competition.

My brother once worked at a major American based software corporation in Latin America. Every time he would try to sell a product, the Chinese company would offer an exact copy at a fraction of the cost. Much of it was stolen technology.

If China wants to be respected in the world, then it should, stop cheating, stop stealing, stop copying, and start innovating the old fashion way...trial and error...and taking risks.

Is it something members here don't know? You should create threads at other forums as well on a daily basis as well.

One simple question, is it b/c that Google has more guts to stand up to the CCP that they went public with this? Derailing the essence of the subject that you created yourself while knowing the real motive behind is a waste of time of everyone else here. Simple lack of respect and other people's intelligence.

Bye.

[BloodyTalon]

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Foremski/?p=1049


Google, the biggest information "gatherer" on the planet, wasn't the only victim.
An oft-frequented website with its own e-mail system collects the IPs and personal data of its userbase? Shocker of all shockers! :roll:

Take a good guess what your internet history and account on this website is.

[Blue P]

Yeah may be, but once you have a government which hacks into email accounts of people in far off countries you begin to draw a line. It will affect profits, google has to bother about its clients privacy. Any decent company would. Freedom and good business go hand in hand. ;)


Indian police beat man Google helped arrest (http://valleywag.gawker.com/344918/indian-police-beat-man-google-helped-arrest)

http://valleywag.com/assets/resources/2008/01/Goolag-thumb.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/phauly/100732484/)Remember the man Google and an Indian ISP helped Indian cops arrest (http://valleywag.com/tech/politics/google-helps-india-jail-the-wrong-guy-320818.php) for the crime of posting an allegedly defamatory picture on Orkut? He now says that during the 50 days he spent in jail, Indian police beat him and made him eat from the same bowl he used as a toilet.
The accused, Lakshmana Kailas K, has sued the ISP, Airtel, for more than $4 million, according to Techgoss (http://www.techgoss.com/fullstory.aspx?storyid=c22113522220011508011508%205:12:14%20AMS14347).
But thanks to the vagaries of Indian law, if Lakshmana has a case, it's not because he was arrested for an act the right to free speech should protect. It's because he was wrongly accused of that crime.
The story goes like this. After a Google user posted a profane picture of the Hindu saint Shivaji to Google's social network, Orkut, Indian authorities contacted Google to ask for his IP address. Google complied. Then, Indian cops took that information to the ISP, Airtel. Airtel handed over a physical address that it claimed corresponded with Google's data. But it was the wrong physical address, leading to Lakshmana Kailas K's subsequent arrest, harassment and beatings.
Here's the scary part. If Airtel had been more competent in its record-keeping, Indian authorities would have likely arrested and beaten the actual poster, and you'd never have heard about any of this.Amen !! ......

[pg_ord]

[URL="http://valleywag.gawker.com/344918/indian-police-beat-man-google-helped-arrest"]Amen !! ......
You still don't get it do you? :roll:
It is one thing for government to *ask* for information. It is another for it to *steal* it. Oh well who am I trying to explain? :roll:
any ways I know you are jealous. p-)

[sujithkochi]

pg_ord,

they dont know the difference, no point trying to explain, they will never understand

[Blue P]

You still don't get it do you? :roll:
It is one thing for government to *ask* for information. It is another for it to *steal* it. Oh well who am I trying to explain? :roll:
any ways I know you are jealous. p-)

so if asked, google should give away the clinets' personal informaltion which would lead to their inhumane treatment in indian prison?

shouldn't i jealous my indian friends, because of their easy access to a toilet bowl for holding dinners?

[BloodyTalon]

[URL="http://valleywag.gawker.com/344918/indian-police-beat-man-google-helped-arrest"]Amen !! ......
...seriously?

Firstly, Google isn't at fault in this case, it's the Indian police and Airtel. Judging by the article, either Airtel screwed up their records or the user in question was using a proxy-IP that another user had and Indian coppers decided to go with the beating stick policy rather than investigator further.

Secondly, the fact that google has the IPs and personal information of its users is nothing that is either new or shocking. For instance, how do you think this website keeps track of your username and what you post? Magic? It's because the servers for this site collect all of the IPs in order to keep your username and posts. Email addresses, school websites, and MMOs do the same thing for the same reasons.

Finally, the case you've posted is controversial for everything but the fact that google complied with the Indian authorities since its been long established that search warrants can also apply to what the suspect does on the Internet. For example, if a user of this site is suspected of committing a crime the authorities in his country have enough corresponding evidence to allow a search warrant, they can request hood to give away the username, IP, personal data, and the post history of the individual in question to use as further evidence. However, there is a stark difference between a search warrant that is based on probable cause of illegal activity and the Chinese government hacking into accounts whenever the hell they feel like it.

[Blue P]

...seriously?

Firstly, Google isn't at fault in this case, it's the Indian police and Airtel. Judging by the article, either Airtel screwed up their records or the user in question was using a proxy-IP that another user had and Indian coppers decided to go with the beating stick policy rather than investigator further.

Secondly, the fact that google has the IPs and personal information of its users is nothing that is either new or shocking. For instance, how do you think this website keeps track of your username and what you post? Magic? It's because the servers for this site collect all of the IPs in order to keep your username and posts. Email addresses, school websites, and MMOs do the same thing for the same reasons.

Finally, the case you've posted is controversial for everything but the fact that google complied with the Indian authorities since its been long established that search warrants can also apply to what the suspect does on the Internet. For example, if a user of this site is suspected of committing a crime the authorities in his country have enough corresponding evidence to allow a search warrant, they can request hood to give away the username, IP, personal data, and the post history of the individual in question to use as further evidence. However, there is a stark difference between a search warrant that is based on probable cause of illegal activity and the Chinese government hacking into accounts whenever the hell they feel like it.

a search warranty, base on someone's online thead critising the indian goverment/politicians, itself seems to be a violation of freedom of speech to me. i'm just wondering why google, self claimed 'human right guadian', did not stand up for its indian clinets. on the other hand, when the similar matter occured in china, it acted like a real saint. which one, is the true face of google? or does the company think, the freedom of indian is cheap than that of chinese?

[Ordie]

a search warranty, base on someone's online thead critising the indian goverment/politicians, itself seems to be a violation of freedom of speech to me. i'm just wondering why google, self claimed 'human right guadian', did not stand up for its clinets.

Probably because the Indian government didn't hack into the Gmail accounts of dissidents.

[BloodyTalon]

a search warranty, base on someone's online thead critising the indian goverment/politicians, itself sounds illegal to me.
Says the fellow trying to defend the Chinese government hacking into Google.


i'm just wondering why google, self claimed 'human right guadian', did not stand up for its clinets.
Because the method the Indian police got that information was perfectly legal; they got a warrant and asked permission. Now the reason why they had a warrant in this case is extremely questionable, but unlike China they went through the proper channels to obtain this information.

What the Chinese did was violate the privacy of the users and Google by arbitrarily hacking into the system. I understand that the Chinese people have a masochistic relationship with their government and are thus okay with this, but everyone else in the world isn't exactly keen on the idea of a government entity, especially a foreign one, breaking into their private info without reason.

[Blue P]

Says the fellow trying to defend the Chinese government hacking into Google.


Because the method the Indian police got that information was perfectly legal; they got a warrant and asked permission. Now the reason why they had a warrant in this case is extremely questionable, but unlike China they went through the proper channels to obtain this information.

What the Chinese did was violate the privacy of the users and Google by arbitrarily hacking into the system. I understand that the Chinese people have a masochistic relationship with their government and are thus okay with this, but everyone else in the world isn't exactly keen on the idea of a government entity, especially a foreign one, breaking into their private info without reason.

if you read my posts carefully, you will find i never tried to defend chinese goverment's behaviour. and i myself have many complaints about it. but it's another story. all i want to point out here is, google is far from the 'human right guadian' he wants us seem him to be. just like cooperating with indian goverment, he could have handled its clinents' information to chinese goverment, as long as the price is right.

the whole 'google leaving china' drama was plotted by google himself, which got pushed out by its chinese rival company called 'baidu', in order to blackmail chinese goverment while gainning international support from sympathy. now, google has taken back its words, saying they will stay 'for the love of chinese people'.(lulz) it looks the company's bet has failed, in china at least. after all, chinese goverment would prefer a a chinese search provider, which is partly controlled by the goverment, over a foreign one, no matter how cooperative it is.

[BloodyTalon]

if you read my posts carefully, you will find i never tried to defend chinese goverment's behaviour. and i myself have many complaints about it. but it's another story. all i want to show here is, google is far from the 'human right guadian' he wants us seem him to be. just like cooperating with indian goverment, he could have handled its clinents' information to chinese goverment, as long as the price is right.

the whole 'google leaving china' drama was plotted by google himself, which got pushed out by its chinese rival company called 'baidu', in order to blackmail chinese goverment while gainning international support from sympathy. now, google has taken back its words, saying they will stay 'for the love of chinese people'.(lulz) it looks the company's bet has failed, in china at least. after all, chinese goverment would prefer a a chinese search provider, which is partly controlled by the goverment, over a foreign one, no matter how cooperative it is.
You don't know what a search warrant is, do you? The Indian government got a search warrant and asked for the IP info and Google complied. The Chinese government said "fvck due process!" and hacked into their system.

Yes, what Google did was for business purposes but chickening out of a confrontation against the government-subsidized and monitored Baidu wasn't the main reason. It's one thing if one specific part of Google complies with censorship laws in the country it operates in and an entirely different issue if they allow the aforementioned government to hack into their system and thus interfere with people outside of the country with impunity. Being the search engine that is the Chinese government's bitch might be appealing in China but it isn't in the rest of the world, and if Google did not at least indicate that the company does not tolerate this blatant privacy infringement that has absolutely zero legal justification and would be willing to take drastic measures to maintain their integrity and relationship with their customers, they would've lost a significant amount of users on principle.

[FabeYond]

Invisigoth said it. This is pure spin. Admirable business skills, but they really don't - they went charging into the PRC in the first place, and agreed to censor their results. They just understand they'll never beat Baidu. They weighed business vs marketing ploy, and this side finally won out.

Ultra cynicism is off now.

China has 350 million internet users, Google has a market share of more than 20%, which means more users use Google in China than in most others countries.

[Ordie]

China has 350 million internet users, Google has a market share of more than 20%, which means more users use Google in China than in most others countries.

How would 350 internet users feel they have no choice but to use Baidu or state owned search engines?

[Blue P]

You don't know what a search warrant is, do you? The Indian government got a search warrant and asked for the IP info and Google complied. The Chinese government said "fvck due process!" and hacked into their system.

Yes, what Google did was for business purposes but chickening out of a confrontation against the government-subsidized and monitored Baidu wasn't the main reason. It's one thing if one specific part of Google complies with censorship laws in the country it operates in and an entirely different issue if they allow the aforementioned government to hack into their system and thus interfere with people outside of the country with impunity. Being the search engine that is the Chinese government's bitch might be appealing in China but it isn't in the rest of the world, and if Google did not at least indicate that the company does not tolerate this blatant privacy infringement that has absolutely zero legal justification and would be willing to take drastic measures to maintain their integrity and relationship with their customers, they would've lost a significant amount of users on principle.

i have to say, your accusation that the chinese goverments' hacking into gmail is inacurrate. the thing started when googel saying its pulling out because of cyber attacks from china. nothing has proven its the chinese goverment behind the hacking. many chinese hackers are good at 'human flesh search' to get personal information, which is how many corrupt officers got revealled recent years. attack from china =/= attack from chinese goverment. just like a brits hacked into pentagon =/= british goverment hacking us military.

i think the truth is as simple as anyone can image, google, a company unfavoured by chinese goverment, made a move to change the situation. a money-whore wants money making easier, yet to be seen as a saint. but unfortunate to the company, the chinese goverment hate it more than estimated. a replacement has been found long time ago. but would love to see the google gone for good. now google is saying they ain't leaving china. but how long can they stay?

and yes, consership is stupid. the propaganda department (yes, it exists, but mainly supplies jokes to chinese online population) of the goverment is such a failure, they had to use the last and most ugly defensive movement.

[BloodyTalon]

i have to say, your accusation that the chinese goverments' hacking into gmail is inacurrate. the thing started when googel saying its pulling out because of cyber attacks from china. nothing has proven its the chinese goverment behind the hacking. many chinese hackers are good at 'human flesh search' to get personal information, which is how many corrupt officers got revealled recent years. attack from china =/= attack from chinese goverment. just like a brits hacked into pentagon =/= british goverment hacking us military.
And yet the targets listed were part of Human Rights groups attacking the policies of China. Course there is always a chance that the hackers were simply independant Jingoist but, especially considering the potential scope of the attacks, it doesn't look favorable on China's end. Also, considering that Gmail was the site in question that got hacked en masse, Google probably has a good idea on the origin of these attacks.


i think the truth is as simple as anyone can image, google, a company unfavoured by chinese goverment, made a move to change the situation. a money-whore wants money making easier, yet to be seen as a saint. but unfortunate to the company, the chinese goverment hate it more than estimated. a replacement has been found long time ago. but would love to see the google gone for good. now google is saying they ain't leaving china. but how long can they stay?
And once again you can't see the forest for the trees. Why am I not surprised?

Believe it or not Google has business interests outside of China. The company already got a lot of flak for complying with censorship laws in China to do business there and any implication that the company was fine and dandy with deliberate intrusions into their userbase by a foreign entity would have cost them badly. What they did was damage control.

[Blue P]

And yet the targets listed were part of Human Rights groups attacking the policies of China. Course there is always a chance that the hackers were simply independant Jingoist but, especially considering the potential scope of the attacks, it doesn't look favorable on China's end. Also, considering that Gmail was the site in question that got hacked en masse, Google probably has a good idea on the origin of these attacks.


And once again you can't see the forest for the trees. Why am I not surprised?

Believe it or not Google has business interests outside of China. The company already got a lot of flak for complying with censorship laws in China to do business there and any implication that the company was fine and dandy with deliberate intrusions into their userbase by a foreign entity would have cost them badly. What they did was damage control.

well, many groups are human right fighter to you, but separatists or even terrorists to chinese. nationalism driven chinese hackers seems more reasonable suspects than chinese offical. google knows the sources of hacking or no, they never indicated if it was chinese goverment hacking them.

and yes, google has business outside of china. that's why they can say 'my investment in china has failed', especially to the share holders. playing victim seems to be a good choice. the best way to make people think their personal data is safe is keeping the mouth shut, not making a drama out of it. but well plotted drama still better than a notification of loss. is it not?

[Ordie]

well, many groups are human right fighter to you, but separatists or even terrorists to chinese. nationalism driven chinese hackers seems more reasonable suspects than chinese offical. google knows the sources of hacking or no, they never indicated if it was chinese goverment hacking them.

and yes, google has business outside of china. that's why they can say 'my investment in china has failed', especially to the share holders. playing victim seems to be a good choice. the best way to make people think their personal data is safe is keeping the mouth shut, not making a drama out of it. but well plotted drama still better than a notification of loss. is it not?

Why not absolve Google from the censorship role and let the Chinese Government do that job? This way both parties got what they want.

Google can claim it's not doing the evil work.
Chinese government can claim that it is safe to do business in China.

And the Chinese consumer have a choice.

[Blue P]

Why not absolve Google from the censorship role and let the Chinese Government do that job? This way both parties got what they want.

Google can claim it's not doing the evil work.
Chinese government can claim that it is safe to do business in China.

And the Chinese consumer have a choice.

ordie, you have a point. but it might face technocal difficulty. that might require some software made by chinese goverment to be intergrated into the search engine itself. then would the page still be 'google' after that?

and after all, being a american company, bounded by patriotic act, holding such a large amount of data, i'm afraid no matter how they comply, google will never be trusted by the chinese goverment. i think from this drama google itself has learnt the bottom line of the party, "get out of china".

i personally prefer google, and i've been using for almost a decade. but if i was sitting in the chair, i would try to get rid of google too. image allowing amerian servicemen using 'baidu' on their computers? i guess you get my point.

[Ordie]

ordie, you have a point. but it might face technocal difficulty. that might require some software made by chinese goverment to be intergrated into the search engine itself. then would the page still be 'google' after that?.

I thought the "Great Firewall of China" took care of filtering sensitive information.

[Blue P]

I thought the "Great Firewall of China" took care of filtering sensitive information.

that thing is just another failure from the propaganda department. its pretty easy to penetrate. and i'm sure the chinese goverment prefer people don't know the existence of the pages at all, rather than 'found but cant open'.

[Ordie]

that thing is just another failure from the propaganda department. its pretty easy to penetrate. and i'm sure the chinese goverment prefer people don't know the existence of the pages at all, rather than 'found but cant open'.

That is not Google's problem.

[sujithkochi]

well, many groups are human right fighter to you, but separatists or even terrorists to chinese. nationalism driven chinese hackers seems more reasonable suspects than chinese offical. google knows the sources of hacking or no, they never indicated if it was chinese goverment hacking them.

and yes, google has business outside of china. that's why they can say 'my investment in china has failed', especially to the share holders. playing victim seems to be a good choice. the best way to make people think their personal data is safe is keeping the mouth shut, not making a drama out of it. but well plotted drama still better than a notification of loss. is it not?

so u r saying they should have cheated people into making them believe everythings safe, is it?

nice line of thought

[Blue P]

That is not Google's problem.

no, not at all. but it's the reality google must face, but can't beat. sadly, the reason google getting kicked out is the same why it was loved in china: so powerful, and it's american.

[Blue P]

so u r saying they should have cheated people into making them believe everythings safe, is it?

nice line of thought

how often do you see google mentioning 'patriotic act' to american people? and how often do you see indian goverment talking about that quarter of populaton starving?

nice try.

[sujithkochi]

how often do you see google mentioning 'patriotic act' to american people? and how often do you see indian goverment talking about that quarter of populaton starving?

nice try.

Unlike what u think, Indian govt didnt hide facts, they acknowledged the problem and has been taking steps to eradicate it

Since 1970, the Indian government has implemented a number of programs designed to eradicate poverty, and has had some success with these programs. The government has sought to increase the GDP through different processes, including changes in industrial policies. There is also a Public Distribution System, which has been somewhat effective so far. Other programs include the Integrated Rural Development Programme, Jawahar Rozgar Yojana, the Training Rural Youth for Self Employment (TRYSEM) and to the credit of the government, other on-going initiatives.

http://www.economywatch.com/indianeconomy/poverty-in-india.html


After a yearlong pilot program, India has launched what many consider the world’s largest anti-poverty program. It covers roughly 300 million people at a cost of $4 billion.
The program hires mostly rural, unskilled laborers to work on a variety of public works projects and pays them more than what they normally would earn. It guarantees 100 workdays a year. That's enough to make a big difference for many of India's poor.


http://www.worldvisionreport.org/Find-Stories/Week-of-June-15-2008/India-s-Poverty-Program

btw, u get statistics because India is a democracy and doesnt conceal facts or figures


try harder

[Connaught Ranger]

Google may come and go, China and its human Rights Abuses will remain.

Comments by Google mean diddly-squat.

[Flamming_Python]

This is because Google is a cover for CIA activities

Amazing how you guys think a multi-millionaire and the shareholders of his company will risk meddling into politics if they didn't think that it would bring them dividends.

[Nano]

The only thing Google has more than the U.S. government is business sense. It is business nothing more nothing less. Google gives two ****s about any human rights written or presumed. Just ask Google about who it keeps tabs on and for whom. It won't even mention it or bother bringing it up in the open.

[IconOfEvi]

Hell, they want all your computer operations to be run through their servers (thats their future business model). They want all the data. They don't give two ****s

[Flamming_Python]

Hell, they want all your computer operations to be run through their servers (thats their future business model). They want all the data. They don't give two ****s

Well, if not them than somebody else. Might as well be them, from their perspective.