Is China becoming arrogant?

[Ordie]

A China that says "no" casts economic shadows
Alan Wheatley, China Economics Editor - Analysis
BEIJING
Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:18pm EST


12:00am PST
BEIJING (*******) - A deepening chill in the Chinese political atmosphere is as deadening as the harsh winter weather that has been gripping the capital. For global economic policy-making, that could magnify friction on everything from trade to exchange rates and global warming.

In areas as diverse as Internet security and human rights, China has staked out a hard line that is increasingly putting it at odds with the international community.

Beijing's virtual snub of talks in New York on Saturday on Iran's nuclear program was just the latest example of what many China watchers see as a growing assertion of its self-interest.

One Western political leader, according to an associate, said after Beijing took the lead in blocking a deal at last month's Copenhagen climate talks, he had not expected China to be throwing its weight around in such a way for another 10 to 15 years.

Some diplomats bluntly say China is becoming arrogant.

"There is a fundamental change unfolding in the way China sees itself relating to the outside world," said Manu Bhaskaran with Centennial Asia Advisors, a strategic advisory firm, in Singapore.

CHINA RISING

Some trace the change to the run-up to the 2008 Olympics, when China closed ranks in a display of nationalist fervor after protesters angry at Beijing's policy in Tibet disrupted the relay of the Olympic torch in Britain, France and the United States.

The global financial meltdown has further buttressed China's confidence. Whereas the West suffered a deep recession because of reckless bankers and feckless regulators, China escaped with barely a scratch.

As such, stability obsessed Beijing is in no mood to take lessons about the merits of unfettered markets, as U.S. President Barack Obama and top EU officials discovered in November when they pressed China to let the yuan rise.

The role of the state in restoring China's blistering growth has further emboldened the central government and state-owned enterprises, whose influence has grown at the expense of private and foreign companies.

Overseas businessmen are aghast over recent rules to promote technological innovation that they say blatantly discriminate in favor of national champions.

Political maneuvering ahead of leadership changes at the top of the ruling Communist Party in two years' time is also hardening Beijing's stance, some analysts believe.

Making what could be construed as concessions to the outside world is not generally a passport to promotion in China.

Bhaskaran sees things differently: "I think this change goes beyond the jockeying for position ahead of the handover of power in 2012. It reflects the very real shift in the balance of power in the world."

According to this line of thinking, China can afford to be more assertive because it sees the United States stretched militarily and weakened financially; Japan in irreversible decline; and Europe unable to get its act together.

MISUNDERSTANDINGS

In such circumstances, there is a risk of policy missteps if China is perceived by its partners as digging in its heels, potentially ushering in a cycle of tit-for-tat retaliation and resentment.

Take trade. The temptation to blame China for "stealing" American jobs can only grow if U.S. unemployment remains in double digits.

"Recent calls in editorial pages for a campaign of tariff retaliation against China's exchange-rate policy are setting a worrisome tone for trade relations in 2010, and the fact of the U.S. midterm congressional elections in November likely will keep 'fair trade' a live political issue - and market risk - for the duration of the year," said Michael Kurtz, head of Asian equity strategy at Macquarie in Shanghai, in a report.

Or take the recent cyber-attacks on Google (GOOG.O) in China, the latest episode in a long-running battle for control of the Internet.

Eurasia Group, a New York based political risk consultancy, said the incident could cause the U.S. business community to turn sour on China, eroding an important support base for Beijing.

"The globe is looking at China as the world's first major economy to recover from the financial crisis and expectations of the ensuing responsibilities that Beijing should be picking up as a result of their new-found stature are growing very rapidly," said Nick Consonery, a Eurasia Group analyst.

However, Beijing does not look ready to take up the leadership role being thrust upon it, Consonery said.

"The fundamental driver -- and you can talk about this for the currency and especially for climate change -- is that Beijing is simply not going to be willing to sacrifice any of its domestic growth or domestic political and economic stability goals for any kind of global agreement or cooperation," he said.

PERCEPTIONS COUNT

Some other China watchers dismiss the idea that policy is being hijacked by nationalist hardliners.

"China's economic integration globally has been steadily increasing. That leaves them more dependent on good relationships, both economically and politically, but it also means they're going to run into more headaches and conflicts," said one analyst, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue.

Largely, he said, the problems were being managed satisfactorily: there was every chance that Beijing would resume the yuan's appreciation, frozen since mid-2008; China had handled nearly all trade spats disputes according to World Trade Organization rules; and China boosted its net purchases of U.S. Treasury securities last year -- hardly the hallmark of a country looking to pick a fight.

"That said, the Chinese government's management of the perceptions of all these things has been pretty bad. So the really interesting issue is whether the perception is much worse than the reality and what does that mean in the U.S. political context," the analyst said.

(Editing by Mathew Veedon)

Source:http://www.*******.com/article/gc04/idUSTRE60H3YS20100118

[Confuse]

Source:http://www.*******.com/article/gc04/idUSTRE60H3YS20100118


I wouldn't say it is becoming arrogant, it would be coming more in line with the attitudes of the US or Russia at their early times of rising power.. would a weaker china that gives in to what others want be considered normal ? ,, all countries have their own interests to look at first and foremost, others just need to adjust to the change while at the same time china should really try to not become "arrogant" as to a point of not co-operate at all.. I would say no to becoming arrogant, but yes to being less accommodating due to the fact that it has now more cards to play with as compared to before where accommodating was given to smooth foreign relations due to being in a weaker position

[Smitty_Damitty]

I wouldn't say it is becoming arrogant, it would be coming more in line with the attitudes of the US or Russia at their early times of rising power.. would a weaker china that gives in to what others want be considered normal ? ,, all countries have their own interests to look at first and foremost, others just need to adjust to the change while at the same time china should really try to not become "arrogant" as to a point of not co-operate at all.. I would say no to becoming arrogant, but yes to being less accommodating due to the fact that it has now more cards to play with as compared to before where accommodating was given to smooth foreign relations due to being in a weaker position
I second your observation. I mean, take a look at their propaganda posters for Christ's sake:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r160/Smitty_Damitty/mirrion.jpg

[Confuse]

I second your observation. I mean, take a look at their propaganda posters for Christ's sake:
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r160/Smitty_Damitty/mirrion.jpg



WTF is a mirrion dorrar ??? ..plus that looks like a WW2 anti japanese poster

[Mango Madness]

WTF is a mirrion dorrar ??? ..plus that looks like a WW2 anti japanese poster

"Million dollar", say it in an Asian accent

[Smitty_Damitty]

WTF is a mirrion dorrar ??? ..plus that looks like a WW2 anti japanese poster
Wow man, you're good. No fooling you I see.:roll:

[nighthawk936]

It's really about national interests at the end of the day. Another thing is, if China/US/(put a country in here) does everything what others say, then they will not only never get anywhere, but also become other's puppet.

[MaNiC]

In areas as diverse as Internet security and human rights, China has staked out a hard line that is increasingly putting it at odds with the international community.

Well, let's just say that it ain't getting any nicer.

I'm reminded of the recent visit by President Obama where his speech to students was not allowed to be televised on state television at the very last minute (only on local stations instead) whereas when President George W. Bush and President Bill Clinton gave similar speeches it was allowed.

For such a historic visit and with such a willingness by an American administration to re-engage the world diplomatically, I found it kind of insulting to snub the President in that way.

[Atlantic Friend]

It's really about national interests at the end of the day. Another thing is, if China/US/(put a country in here) does everything what others say, then they will not only never get anywhere, but also become other's puppet.

But it's not a binary "either/or" world. A nation can stand firm on its principles, and defend its interests without being arrogant about it. That China can speak for itself, push its own world agenda and affirm its full sovereignty is acknowledged by all nations.

[seraosha]

I for one fully anticipate us all welcoming our middle kingdom overlords in due course.

[MaNiC]

I for one fully anticipate us all welcoming our middle kingdom overlords in due course.

ZOMG! Traitor!

(USA! USA! USA!) p-)

[Bohemoth]

Yes, they are already arrogant.

The more we buy from China and the more we sacrifice of our western values for the sake of commerce, the bigger the yellow dragon will rise. The irony is, we may enjoy their cheap labor and products now, but we will all pay a very high price for that eventually.

God Bless the Free World.

[Solvent]

Arrogant? We just speak out a little bit, not as quiet as before.

[Smitty_Damitty]

"Million dollar", say it in an Asian accent
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r160/Smitty_Damitty/thats_racist_animated1.gif
.............

[Laworkerbee]

Arrogant? We just speak out a little bit, not as quiet as before.

And the West isn't used to it, you need to take it slow with white people, they are a paranoid bunch.

[Confuse]

And the West isn't used to it, you need to take it slow with white people, they are a paranoid bunch.

to make a comparison the west is already what you would call china "arrogant" .. the question of is the "west" becoming arrogant" in the same context would have been asked in the beginning of the world colonization era some where around the 1750's-1850's the beginnings of the industrial revolution ... pre industrial era "west aka. white europeans" were not "arrogant" and did have respect for other non european cultures of similar development .. after that it rapidly advanced over others with the industrial revolution and thus came to see others "non-white europeans" cultures as inferior and thus the mindset of white man's burden, which in reality is still around today but in a much more subtle non obvious manner as it has had centuries to set in and become a sort of norm, any change to that would make some people paranoid while others have no problem with it

[nighthawk936]

to make a comparison the west is already what you would call china "arrogant" .. the question of is the "west" becoming arrogant" in the same context would have been asked in the beginning of the world colonization era some where around the 1750's-1850's the beginnings of the industrial revolution ... pre industrial era "west aka. white europeans" were not "arrogant" and did have respect for other non european cultures of similar development .. after that it rapidly advanced over others with the industrial revolution and thus came to see others "non-white europeans" cultures as inferior and thus the mindset of white man's burden, which in reality is still around today but in a much more subtle non obvious manner as it has had centuries to set in and become a sort of norm, any change to that would make some people paranoid while others have no problem with it

agree
in contrasts, western imperialism led to slavery, colonization of africa, head tax, racisms against minorities, racial stereotypes, discrimination, colonization of india, spheres of influences, colonization, imperialism, unequal treaties in china(mind you, this was great humiliation to the chinese, which also shaped why we're very sensitive to any harassments by foreign powers today)

by definition of arrogant, it depends if we consider ourselves better than everyone else and in the process, bash everyone else's cultures. or applying gunboat diplomacy everywhere, using ultimatums and threats, and to marginalize others. this is what i consider arrogant. of course bigotry, racism, discriminations are included

[deagle]

some say arrogant, others say confident.

if only we were more assertive too.

[Estopped]

I don't think they are arrogant. If anything China has played second fiddle for so long, and now they are saying they are going to look out for their own self-interest. If anything these diplomats are clutching at straws because 'arrogant' to them means not going along with their agenda.

[JPBaz]

agree
in contrasts, western imperialism led to slavery, colonization of africa, head tax, racisms against minorities, racial stereotypes, discrimination, colonization of india, spheres of influences, colonization, imperialism, unequal treaties in china(mind you, this was great humiliation to the chinese, which also shaped why we're very sensitive to any harassments by foreign powers today)

by definition of arrogant, it depends if we consider ourselves better than everyone else and in the process, bash everyone else's cultures. or applying gunboat diplomacy everywhere, using ultimatums and threats, and to marginalize others. this is what i consider arrogant. of course bigotry, racism, discriminations are included

Yup, sounds like the foreign policy of the middle kingdom to me...

[dttk0009]

Don't think I'd call it arrogance, but rather new found confidence.

[JPBaz]

Don't think I'd call it arrogance, but rather new found confidence.

Hey you are welcome to it...good luck. I am sure that the Chinese people will vote with the best interest of the Thai people in mind. Oops, they don't vote.

[TheKorean]

I will say this once again, China will be the death of us all.

[junglejim]

Care to explain? At it's peak it never had ideas of colonization but rather more of enforcing trade.

[TheKorean]

China dominating the world economy is not a good thing. Plus with its huge populations, god knows how powerful their military can become. And we all know how corrupt their government is. None of these are a good sign for the rest of us.

[dttk0009]

Hey you are welcome to it...good luck. I am sure that the Chinese people will vote with the best interest of the Thai people in mind. Oops, they don't vote.
I'm not Thai, but relations between the two countries are rather good.

[junglejim]

China dominating the world economy is not a good thing. Plus with its huge populations, god knows how powerful their military can become. And we all know how corrupt their government is. None of these are a good sign for the rest of us. Well, maybe Im not as pessimistic since it was the only super power that at its height actually traded with my country as an equal. Rather than blowing parts of it up.

[Byrdalak]

I don't think they are arrogant. If anything China has played second fiddle for so long, and now they are saying they are going to look out for their own self-interest. If anything these diplomats are clutching at straws because 'arrogant' to them means not going along with their agenda.

I agree. I also think there is elements of racism and fascism in their culture and government. I think that can potentially lead to nothing but problems.

As to their rising power and their arrogance it is pointless to criticize. Who gave them the power while surrendering their own for a profit?

[cn_habs]

WTF is a mirrion dorrar ??? ..plus that looks like a WW2 anti japanese poster

EPIC FAIL :lol:

A Japanese-looking pilot with traditional Chinese written on the plane.. that could only be found in Taiwan nowadays... The creator couldn't be more stupid.

[cn_habs]

Hey you are welcome to it...good luck. I am sure that the Chinese people will vote with the best interest of the Thai people in mind. Oops, they don't vote.

LOL. Your ignorance in such a short comment is so funny to read..

[cn_habs]

The Europeans weren't arrogant back in the day? They did what they thought was the best thing for them b/c of survival of the fittest will always apply.

Don't they say that nice guys finish last...or in the shower.

[Mavet]

Prior to the end of WWII, chinese characters used in China and Japan are the same before both countries simplified them. And there's so many retarded know it all ppl. Which is more arrogant i have to ask.

On the issue of Google, I use Google more than Baidu because I personally don't like censorship. But till now i don't think they will pull out because they are there for $, and any fuss it is creating is prob for their further negotiations with the govt. Plus, someone who fights for the lack of rule of law should be supported and the govt is just an ass suppressing it. But a 'Tibetan activist' is only there to damage Chinese interests, I don't really care if his account is hacked, too bad for him.

On the issue of Iran, if we help the west, what do we get in return, until we are shown with what we get for helping you, we'll talk more about Iran. According to Capitalism, you do work, and you'll get stuff in return. China =/= Charity.

And I agree that if Europeans who care to read something, read your history and compare with us, see who's more arrogant?

[plato]

The Europeans weren't arrogant back in the day? They did what they thought was the best thing for them b/c of survival of the fittest will always apply.

Don't they say that nice guys finish last...or in the shower.

yes, Europeans were arrogant back in the day. Some are still arrogant, today. We Americans might be arrogant, too.

So, how is this related to today's China? BTW, I think China was somewhat arrogant to decide they had nothing to learn from the outside world, and stopped those sea explorations back in the day. China was also somewhat arrogant to cut European delegations' heads off, and only to suffer a major defeat afterwards. So, let us not talk about "back in the day". Shall we?

[Ordie]

China dominating the world economy is not a good thing. Plus with its huge populations, god knows how powerful their military can become. And we all know how corrupt their government is. None of these are a good sign for the rest of us.

The US is still the largest economy by a wide margin. As for the PLA, there is no doubt they are modernizing. However it's size and quality is much debated. It may have over a million troops, but an estimated 200,000 of them are highly trained and equipped by western standards.

Like the US, China will have an increasing aging population. A country of geriatrics will take fewer risks and be more conservative. One could argue that China is catching up so it can coast during the golden years.

[hskywalker]

China is not arrogant, it is the west that asks China to be a "responsible power", meaning responsible to western interests. China just want to do our own bussiness, we never pointed our fingers at things not involving China or chinese citizens. China haven't voiced any protest when indonesia mobs targeted ethnic chinese. Not chinese citizen, not in China, China won't say one word.

Copenhagen, if uncontrolled carbon emission does more good to China than bad, why should Chian give a damn.
Iran, why should China care about israel secutiry, it's none of our bussiness. Let israel and it's neigbours sort the mess out.
Darfur, even it is true, again none of China's bussiness.
Radical islam...They can't win against west, and they won't target China until they finish off west. So, they won't target China.
Chinese human rights... Those useless liberal lawyers deserve what they get. If someone want justice to prevail in China, those dirty lawyers are the last one we can count on. There is a good case going on, lying scum gangster lawyer get what he deserve, and people are happy. Who really cares he breaks the law or not. The same goes with professional political dissident, we don't need them.

Better get whatever you can get when you still can and ignore other's opinion, than give up your oppotunity and later asking for international aid.

[Confuse]

EPIC FAIL :lol:

A Japanese-looking pilot with traditional Chinese written on the plane.. that could only be found in Taiwan nowadays... The creator couldn't be more stupid.


simplified chinese characters only went into widespread use after WW2 in both mainland china and japan, during WW2 and before japanese written script had much more kanji and less katakana and hiragana...
either way I was just saying that it fit better with a japanese poster due to the type of poster's time period in a war propaganda WW2 setting.

[Confuse]

The US is still the largest economy by a wide margin. As for the PLA, there is no doubt they are modernizing. However it's size and quality is much debated. It may have over a million troops, but an estimated 200,000 of them are highly trained and equipped by western standards.

Like the US, China will have an increasing aging population. A country of geriatrics will take fewer risks and be more conservative. One could argue that China is catching up so it can coast during the golden years.





That's why there is always a reduction in army troops numbers year after year... those idle troops just suck up budget money, they still need to be paid, feed , housed.. those upkeep numbers a being cut and reinvested into better equipment, training and wages to retain quality personnel (make the armed forces a career and not a job of last resort) , alot of the money is also being put into air force, navy and strategic, because you want to keep the war off your territory .. china doesn't need to defeat all the US armed forces as it isn't invading the CONUS, it just needs to defend it's territory from anyone.




Also China has too many people and not enough jobs for them, getting more old people is just a burden that the people and the government are just going to have to deal with because there is no way around it...it's damned if you do and damned if you don't...more old people and the stress of taking care of them are a smaller problem compared to an extra 500 million people and no way for them to survive, the reduction can happen slowly with some sort of control versus a battle for survival with everyone killing each other and the old left to die due to no resources.

[dttk0009]

yes, Europeans were arrogant back in the day. Some are still arrogant, today. We Americans might be arrogant, too.

So, how is this related to today's China? BTW, I think China was somewhat arrogant to decide they had nothing to learn from the outside world, and stopped those sea explorations back in the day. China was also somewhat arrogant to cut European delegations' heads off, and only to suffer a major defeat afterwards. So, let us not talk about "back in the day". Shall we?
For the record, I have met countless Americans and Chinese in my life and Americans are much more 'in your face' about being American than Chinese are about being Chinese, but that may be just because I'm German. People interpret arrogance differently, and it's much easier to say that both countries harbor a large number of citizens that have immense national pride which often comes off as arrogance.

[plato]

For the record, I have met countless Americans and Chinese in my life and Americans are much more 'in your face' about being American than Chinese are about being Chinese, but that may be just because I'm German. People interpret arrogance differently, and it's much easier to say that both countries harbor a large number of citizens that have immense national pride which often comes off as arrogance.

I don't think Chinese or Europeans are arrogant. I think arrogant people are arrogant.

[nighthawk936]

Yup, sounds like the foreign policy of the middle kingdom to me...
i guess u just have to force me to say it dont u

by definition of arrogant, it depends if we consider ourselves better than everyone else and in the process, bash everyone else's cultures---> US, euro-imperialism. or applying gunboat diplomacy --> opium war by the british. everywhere, using ultimatums and threats--->triple entente, ww1 , and to marginalize others-->head tax. this is what i consider arrogant. of course bigotry, racism, discriminations are included-->you guys and racisms, discriminations in north america. dont forget all those white supremists, kkk, nazis, are all whites.

[nighthawk936]

Hey you are welcome to it...good luck. I am sure that the Chinese people will vote with the best interest of the Thai people in mind. Oops, they don't vote.
better than voting a retard into office to 8 years. or voting for something and then whining about it after :)

[dttk0009]

I don't think Chinese or Europeans are arrogant. I think arrogant people are arrogant.
I agree, I'm saying that nationalism is often interpreted as arrogance. It's a relative word that affects everyone differently.
For example, you, a Chinese person and a Russian are standing around. You and the Russian have 10 apples. The Russian proclaims : "Man, it's fantastic to have this many apples!". While you might just internally agree with him, the Chinese person could understand this statement to be very arrogant.

[nighthawk936]

China dominating the world economy is not a good thing. Plus with its huge populations, god knows how powerful their military can become. And we all know how corrupt their government is. None of these are a good sign for the rest of us.

1. They're fighting a war against corruption. Slow progress, but they're making the efforts. Maybe if the US government or other Western nations did something similar, the AIG scandal won't have existed. Also less than 2 years ago, the BC members of parliament passed a bill to increase their own wages by 15%. It's the same everywhere.

2. It's not a problem for their military to be sent from God or weak like ****. It's whether they'll be a threat such as aggressions or whether they're warmongering. The last time I know, the only troops or military assets outside of China are in peacekeeping missions and at Somalia. I guess we must have forgotten who's got the most troops stationed outside of their own borders, including several battlefleets, and 2 hot zones? Um...also, whose troops are in your country right now? Not the PLA right? And don't forget our neighbor, Japan. Talk about rapes by stationed troops in Okinawa.

3. Japan, China, S. Korea are talking about a East Asia Cooperation right now, which enhances trading. It'll be something similar to EU.


Lastly, I hope to see an unified Korea. I don't believe in, nor support North Korea, but I believe a unified country is stronger and better for the people. After all you guys are the same people, but only separated by political differences, one of which is an evil regime.

And lastly a cooperation between the three nations is the best. Serves best to protect each other(East Asia)'s interests.

[nighthawk936]

I agree, I'm saying that nationalism is often interpreted as arrogance. It's a relative word that affects everyone differently.
For example, you, a Chinese person and a Russian are standing around. You and the Russian have 10 apples. The Russian proclaims : "Man, it's fantastic to have this many apples!". While you might just internally agree with him, the Chinese person could understand this statement to be very arrogant.

I agree. Nationalism and patriotism can be dangerous for mankind, especially in extremist dosage. It's one thing to love your own people and your country, but another to love yourself and hate thy neighbor. And usually ignorance such as stereotypes, prejudice, and racism fuels dissent, which leads to greater hatred. Bad stuff.

I remember there's this Comedy Central clip featuring Stephen Chow. It's a scripted joke where the interviewer asks something ignorant and racist, then Stephen Chow reacts angrily to it. He then cusses in Cantonese, but the subtitles show opposite meanings. However even if the viewer doesn't understand, by looking at Stephen Chow's expression, tones, and gestures (and the obvious insult of the question), we can tell the subtitles are deliberately misleading. The whole thing was scripted and intended to be a satire, but some dumbass Chinese took it seriously and got all angry. I literally went like "Chill the **** out man..." The whole idea is that the West should stop the bashing, but we Chinese should stop taking things too seriously. It's intended to be funny and it's so stupid when people gets all upset about it. Also, thus explains my context of being overzealous with patriotism and nationalism - it ruins everything.

[nighthawk936]

I agree. I also think there is elements of racism and fascism in their culture and government. I think that can potentially lead to nothing but problems.

As to their rising power and their arrogance it is pointless to criticize. Who gave them the power while surrendering their own for a profit?

Wow talk about YOUR people first. How much do you understand Chinese culture and history? Don't talk unless you have factual knowledge in it. Even then, why don't you look at the West. You people DEVELOPED FASCISM, HEAD TAX, KKK, WHITE SUPREMACY, NAZI, concentration camps for the Japanese, Asian stereotypes in media, sinophobia, slavery of the Blacks, pushing Natives into reserves, Crusades into Jerusalem, colonization of India, carving up China in the 1800s. There were nearly not a single place civilization on Earth you guys visited and left them intact, or respected.

And now you're blowing your **** about us? And guess what, from your statement, you're already proving your ignorance. Your statement "
I agree. I also think there is elements of racism and fascism in their culture and government. I think that can potentially lead to nothing but problems.

As to their rising power and their arrogance it is pointless to criticize. Who gave them the power while surrendering their own for a profit? IS already racism and ignorance. Thanks for demonstrating yourself so I have even more to support my argument with.
I agree with you on the part "lead to nothing but problems", but that's you guys. It's all in the history books.

[nighthawk936]

yes, Europeans were arrogant back in the day. Some are still arrogant, today. We Americans might be arrogant, too.

So, how is this related to today's China? BTW, I think China was somewhat arrogant to decide they had nothing to learn from the outside world, and stopped those sea explorations back in the day. China was also somewhat arrogant to cut European delegations' heads off, and only to suffer a major defeat afterwards. So, let us not talk about "back in the day". Shall we?


We visited as far as Africa. If only Zheng He pushed on and circumnavigated, or actually reached Europe, I think the world will be a very different place. Anyways I'll agree with your point on this, though it's not too much about arrogance (but I guess there are some elements of it), but more they haven't find anything they're interested in.

As for beheading, well when you're in another's culture, you must respect their traditions right? If those Europeans committed a crime punishable by death written in the context of the governing party, then spare no one. Same for vice versa. No one should be discimininated from the justice systems, but any pardons are acts of mercy, understanding, and compassion. If there are conflicts, then they must act to resolve, or know what's the best course of action. Some minor things may not be a big problem, but others can carry heavy consequences.

As for major defeat, China was leading until the Europeans entered the Industrial Revolution. By then, the Qing government was impotent and corrupted that time. The same time British smuggled Opium into China which affected the population greatly. This led to of course, further decay in the society. The Chinese stopped the drugs and burned it all, but the British attacked China and China lost that war greatly. It was a major defeat in which China, for the first time ever, demonstrated to be technologically and militarily behind. This permanently changed the course of the Chinese history.

I'm not trying to defend China in this response, but to assess the situation and introduce the history of it. I believe you're right partially, that we do have some arrogance in us, but more of pride. We actually lost the arrogance with the defeat in the Opium War

[nighthawk936]

China is not arrogant, it is the west that asks China to be a "responsible power", meaning responsible to western interests. China just want to do our own bussiness, we never pointed our fingers at things not involving China or chinese citizens. China haven't voiced any protest when indonesia mobs targeted ethnic chinese. Not chinese citizen, not in China, China won't say one word.

Copenhagen, if uncontrolled carbon emission does more good to China than bad, why should Chian give a damn.
Iran, why should China care about israel secutiry, it's none of our bussiness. Let israel and it's neigbours sort the mess out.
Darfur, even it is true, again none of China's bussiness.
Radical islam...They can't win against west, and they won't target China until they finish off west. So, they won't target China.
Chinese human rights... Those useless liberal lawyers deserve what they get. If someone want justice to prevail in China, those dirty lawyers are the last one we can count on. There is a good case going on, lying scum gangster lawyer get what he deserve, and people are happy. Who really cares he breaks the law or not. The same goes with professional political dissident, we don't need them.

Better get whatever you can get when you still can and ignore other's opinion, than give up your oppotunity and later asking for international aid.

Well said. We've learned from our history too well. Do not repeat history, and we won't end up in history.

And I love the notion that corruption can get them executed in China. Corruption is a big reason to the income gap and poverty and the suffering of the people there.

[nighthawk936]

For the record, I have met countless Americans and Chinese in my life and Americans are much more 'in your face' about being American than Chinese are about being Chinese, but that may be just because I'm German. People interpret arrogance differently, and it's much easier to say that both countries harbor a large number of citizens that have immense national pride which often comes off as arrogance.
totally agreed

also there's more of those in the US bashing china (not chinese people) than the other way, although i know for a fact if i go2 a chinese forum, the reverse happens. the chinese netizens frequently mention US with Iraq, then they usually end the sentence with "they go die"(literal translation)

i usually ignore them as they ramble on, but one thing for certain; no matter how zealous they are, they dont get all racist against the americans. that's a big difference.

if they start to get ridiculous i'll do wt im doing here, but defend the west with moderate stance. after all i've lived in canada for 16 years, and i know wt thngs are like for both sides. i like to appreciate the gd things wt here we get to enjoy, while the same time i know wt my folks in asia can do to improve, and wt they have thats gd. fyi im from hk, so i start out from a democratic society.

and like you've said, those with too much national pride is annoying, when they start acting ignorantly and arrogantly.

[tea drinker]

The guy in the take-away had a right bloody attitude on him tonight. Arrogant plick.

[Ordie]

and like you've said, those with too much national pride is annoying, when they start acting ignorantly and arrogantly.

The Chinese Government replaced the 'Victor International Communist Ideology' with a 'Victim Internal Nationalist Ideology'.

And they promote it through historical dramas, films and TV shows.

[Daily dose]

And what do you suggest? Nuke them to put them back in line?

[nighthawk936]

The Chinese Government replaced the 'Victor International Communist Ideology' with a 'Victim Internal Nationalist Ideology'.

And they promote it through historical dramas, films and TV shows.

Partially. It's not completely something they want to "promote", but more of a sense of national pride reinforced through factual occurance in history and cultural values. In fact the victim and humiliation is something we want to get rid of, and that is by being stronger. Take Germany for example. After WWI they were beaten and humiliated, and with that they worked twice as hard to catch up in 21 years. It's all about when foreign powers not only won you in a war, but looted your culture and everything. Naturally you'll be angry. It's kinda like how you guys will be angry looking at clips of Pearl Harbor, and have tears looking at footages of 9/11. (I was in deep sorrow looking at those photos of 9/11 myself too)

A critical thing foreigners must understand about us is that Chinese are very proud and stubborn people. We're proud of our 5000 years old history, our inventions, our systems, our advances, our great people, our food (for sure), our military, and basically pretty much everything. And in terms of war, back in the days like the Warring States, if a state gets overrun, it's not unusual for citizens of that state to commit mass suicides as to avoid being captured by enemy hands. They'll rush to the sea or city wall and thousands jumped off themselves. It's either that they'll receive torture and punishment when caught, or rather die than surrender, or die as the citizens of their country, or instructed/forced to, or any of those. It's occurred many times in history. As you can tell, we're already very patriotic and stubborn since back then. When we believe in something, the determination runs very deep and very long.

Think about it. That's why we're so pissed when some fools tried to snatch our Olympic torch, the CCTV news reporters wept during reporting about the earthquake, some guy sabotaged the auction of a relic stolen by the French during the destruction of Yuan Ming Garden, millions wept when Liu Xiang can't compete, and look at all the spending into making Beijing Olympics glamorous.
Anyways by now, China is more like trying to familiarize herself in this new glove of power and what it's like to take with all the new spotlights shone at China. The last time we're like this was roughly 200 years ago, and even back then, China didn't perceive much of the outside world, thus explaining why we call ourselves "Middle Kingdom", as we're in the center of everything. It's probably the similar mentality of people thinking Earth is the center of the universe. In this case, even though there were contacts and diplomatic relationships with the Arabs, Romans, Indians, they were considered like on the far edge of the universe. Japan, Korea would be considered neighbors.

[JPBaz]

better than voting a retard into office to 8 years. or voting for something and then whining about it after :)

You guys are making my point. You are willing to let big brother make all the decisions for you, read your email, censor and control the media. Our system is imperfect (See the recent Massachusetts elections!) but at least we get to choose. I agree that China has an remarkable history and has made huge contributions in every field of study. That said, the ability of the European countries to dominate China on the other side of the world is only due to Chinese cultural arrogance. We in the US acknowledge our failings, racism and the like. There is more criticism of these failures in our own media than there is world wide. Do you think a member of a Chinese minority group would ever be elected by the Chinese people?

China is certainly on the verge of a new golden age based on its educated population, R&D work and industrial base while the US has sold many of our advantages to the highest bidder. That said, I wonder what the impact will be when the Chinese people discover the potential of truly free society? What happens when they can not sustain 8% annual growth based on the US consumer selling their soul? What happens if the natural resources they depend on to grow are not there to be purchased with cash from the US? It may not be pretty for the Chinese or their neighbors.

[nighthawk936]

You guys are making my point. You are willing to let big brother make all the decisions for you, read your email, censor and control the media. Our system is imperfect (See the recent Massachusetts elections!) but at least we get to choose. I agree that China has an remarkable history and has made huge contributions in every field of study. That said, the ability of the European countries to dominate China on the other side of the world is only due to Chinese cultural arrogance. We in the US acknowledge our failings, racism and the like. There is more criticism of these failures in our own media than there is world wide. Do you think a member of a Chinese minority group would ever be elected by the Chinese people?

China is certainly on the verge of a new golden age based on its educated population, R&D work and industrial base while the US has sold many of our advantages to the highest bidder. That said, I wonder what the impact will be when the Chinese people discover the potential of truly free society? What happens when they can not sustain 8% annual growth based on the US consumer selling their soul? What happens if the natural resources they depend on to grow are not there to be purchased with cash from the US? It may not be pretty for the Chinese or their neighbors.

To be honest, if you take some time to go into Chinese books, since the Shang dynasty, which was roughly 1700 B.C., a school of thought emerged with the mentality "for the people". It's even in the Art of War that the government serves the people, otherwise tyranny is not a fit to be "mandate of heaven" and thus shall be overthrown by the people. It's happened many times in history. What I'm trying to say is that the concept "for the people", or "the public" existed since back then and it's been around in Chinese history for a long time. The reason of centralized government system is because if one examines Chinese history, even as a Chinese myself, I acknowledge we are always fighting amongst ourselves. And when that happens, we're weak. And foreign invasion usually follows. As a result, Warring States ended Qin unifying SEVEN states into one and formed one entity. With that said, a centralized system was needed to adhere everything into one. Writings, currency, into one. What I'm trying to get at, is that a centralized government is needed to keep the people unified. This is also a big reason why reunification flows in the blood of Chinese. It's nothing about "imposing communism" crap those fearmongers talk about. It's not about not allowing a second voice to be heard. It's about the need for the state to exist as one. Afterwards, once the nation is strong and healthy, we can do what's needed afterwards. Human rights and things are good, but to a nation of 1.3 billion facing 900million under poverty line, and plagued with ****loads of problems, food on the table and money is the first thing. This is why economy is placed near the top, followed by education, modernization. You need money to make things happen. One must understand that it's not like we Chinese want to be special and live in a communist environment. The days of the Cultural Revolution hated by most are over. (China isn't even real communism, but more socialism). It's that we know how far we must get ahead and what our priorities are. After the people are lifted out of poverty, next up will be education. And to tell you the truth, too many people are still uneducated. Social standards and things are still too low in many rural areas, while the damaging effects of the purges during the Cultural Revolution led to a decreased sense of morality. This is a big reason why intellectuals in China, and those in Hong Kong, hated Mao. My dad hated Mao. My great grandfather died in the purges of the Cultural Revolution. Pretty much those 10 years desensitized many Chinese into nearly subhuman. Those 10 years were not only wasted, but started to roll the civilization backwards. Good thing it ended. However today it's still going to take maybe 2 generations for social standards to pick up. My guesses are around 2050 things will be much decent, and perhaps 2080, China can start talking about democracy. Even in Hong Kong, we've went through 40 years of protests and marches in the streets before we're calling for suffrage in 2010's. It's going to take longer for people in China because they need to develop that sense of social responsibility and be upright. In the meantime, increasing sense of moral values and easing up on Human Rights is definitely viable. China is suitable for democracy in the future, but not now. The whole idea is like instilling democracy in Somali right now. It's not going to work. Tribes, gangs, corruptions are too deep in the roots for democracy to exist. Why? Because if the government is corrupt, anyone in the public trying to whistleblow only leads to persecution. Dictatorship and iron fist often comes hand in hand.

Anyway as you can see, really, things can't be rushed. It's not like we Chinese don't want to be democractic and all, but being democratic without any clothes and food gets you nowhere. And trust me, the people living in China knows it better than us. They know the abuses and hardships and the corruption. Do you think they allow it to happen? Of course not. But too many corruptions are happening there. That's why at least for now, low-paying job is better than no job. Who's going to feed those huge families in the rural with like 7 kids? And the good side was, China's working to fight corruption. Will take long, but corrupted officials are getting shot in the head as we speak.

We aren't actually arrogant. Just try your luck and start talking with a Chinese man. If you don't meet a prick, the majority you meet are nice people. It's the same thing in the US. I've met lots of nice people, but it's always those who thinks they're the center of the world, that makes the US gets hated by others. Take for example. "What do you think of Iraq?" Answer: "We should bomb their ass back to the Stone Age." Seriously, it doesn't take too much IQ for anyone to think the answering person is arrogant.

Also just so you know, affirmative actions are in policy in China for a long time. Many minorities receive better treatment than us the Hans. They don't have the One Child Policy on them - it's only for us Hans. They have easier time entering universities, and I think some minorities are in fact, officials. I've learned that in my college here in Canada. Even amongst us, we generally don't have any grudges against the minorities. Many of them are very nice and hospitable people. However like everything there are extreme sides to things, and what happened last September was a result of extreme violence. If you do your own research, and that means not from CNN, Globe and Mail, BBC (Western mainstream media are very biased against China), you'll learn that the majority of the casualties are Han, and there are in fact, some minorities killed by the thugs. It led to unhappiness of Hans towards the minorities, and in the newspapers many of these minorities called for the bloodshed to cease. Some of the minorities even volunteered to donate blood to help the people at Uiyghur. What ended up happening was, some Han people at the riots formed groups and wanted to take revenge, but the PAP prevented them from doing so. In the end, many were arrested and released, both Hans and the minorities. Only the severe criminals were executed(they were going around cutting off people's heads, wiping out families, burning houses). Also, it's been proven the protest was initially peaceful, but a rogue organized group started the killings on the other side of the city while sending sms to minorities to join. It's apparently an organized crime. What I'm trying to get here is that 1.Western media on China are unreliable and biased 2. Minorities aren't marginalized. Racial issues in China isn't the best, but definitely not as gloomy as the West portrayed 3. Do your own research to find out 4. Too many people are living in the old days with the Red Scare in mind and outdated information.

Also to answer your question, domestic economy is something the CPC is trying to work on. China can't rely on exports forever - it simply won't raise the social living standards as fast as domestic one

As for the huge amounts of greenbacks in the Chinese foreign reserve, China is trying to spend it on investments such as buying shares in large companies, and on other things that this huge sums of money is useful for. Examples will be stimulus packages, budgets on defense, civic improvements, programs, increased trades. The CPC is well aware of what happens when there are too much greenbacks - they are simply bundles of cotton with fluctuating value. At the same time China, S. Korea, and Japan are currently discussing a East Asia Union. This will serve to protect their interests.

In the end, it's all early to say anything now. All we can do is just watch and see what happens farther down the road. Two things for certain: Chinese way of doing things will be different from the West, which means both sides must work to compromise and learn. The second thing will be, if anyone wants to understand, they should go do their own research.

and FYI, both the parties in Taiwan and China are as corrupted. It's just who's more inept, and that definitely will be ROC.

[IconOfEvi]

I recall reading/hearing some tidbit about a Soviet officer visiting with a delagation to the PRC during their bromance days, and even then he noted, the schools had maps up showing the present borders, and then the map they'd take out when the Soviets were gone, showing China owning most of Siberia and stuff like that - Greater China.

The Middle Kingdom still lives.

[cn_habs]

I recall reading/hearing some tidbit about a Soviet officer visiting with a delagation to the PRC during their bromance days, and even then he noted, the schools had maps up showing the present borders, and then the map they'd take out when the Soviets were gone, showing China owning most of Siberia and stuff like that - Greater China.

The Middle Kingdom still lives.

The whole Mongolia too.

The most important lesson that the Chinese have learnt in the past century: You get raped by everyone else if you are weak and unable to defend yourself. Why would you even need others' pity if you can firmly establish yourself and protect your own interests?

[JPBaz]

Also just so you know, affirmative actions are in policy in China for a long time. Many minorities receive better treatment than us the Hans. They don't have the One Child Policy on them - it's only for us Hans. They have easier time entering universities, and I think some minorities are in fact, officials. I've learned that in my college here in Canada. Even amongst us, we generally don't have any grudges against the minorities. Many of them are very nice and hospitable people. However like everything there are extreme sides to things, and what happened last September was a result of extreme violence. If you do your own research, and that means not from CNN, Globe and Mail, BBC (Western mainstream media are very biased against China), you'll learn that the majority of the casualties are Han, and there are in fact, some minorities killed by the thugs. It led to unhappiness of Hans towards the minorities, and in the newspapers many of these minorities called for the bloodshed to cease. Some of the minorities even volunteered to donate blood to help the people at Uiyghur. What ended up happening was, some Han people at the riots formed groups and wanted to take revenge, but the PAP prevented them from doing so. In the end, many were arrested and released, both Hans and the minorities. Only the severe criminals were executed(they were going around cutting off people's heads, wiping out families, burning houses). Also, it's been proven the protest was initially peaceful, but a rogue organized group started the killings on the other side of the city while sending sms to minorities to join. It's apparently an organized crime. What I'm trying to get here is that 1.Western media on China are unreliable and biased 2. Minorities aren't marginalized. Racial issues in China isn't the best, but definitely not as gloomy as the West portrayed 3. Do your own research to find out 4. Too many people are living in the old days with the Red Scare in mind and outdated information.



Nice post Nighthawk, very detailed and well reasoned. You have given me some stuff to research. I am aware of the many of the facts RE the Uiyghur situation so I hope you would understand my umbrage when people comment of race problems in the US. It is not a simple subject and can not be summed up by mentioning the KKK.

My concerns are limited to American prospects in the next Century. We have sold much of our manufacturing capacity. Please do not underestimate the impact of Chinese government manipulation of their currency valuation. It is not a fair playing field, hence my blatant trolling by calling the Chinese government arrogant.

Peace...

[nighthawk936]

Nice post Nighthawk, very detailed and well reasoned. You have given me some stuff to research. I am aware of the many of the facts RE the Uiyghur situation so I hope you would understand my umbrage when people comment of race problems in the US. It is not a simple subject and can not be summed up by mentioning the KKK.

My concerns are limited to American prospects in the next Century. We have sold much of our manufacturing capacity. Please do not underestimate the impact of Chinese government manipulation of their currency valuation. It is not a fair playing field, hence my blatant trolling by calling the Chinese government arrogant.

Peace...
I know what you mean. I live in Canada myself, so being north of you guys, I have a small grasp of what's happening. And I can say, in China it's probably as complicated as the issues in the US. Where in the US it's a lot about the Natives, colored minorities, and immigrants, in China just imagine a nation made of 56 ethnics. Not simple too. And I understand your feelings, as how you don't like people who knows nothing to comment ignorantly, will be same as how I can't stand people doing the same about my heritage. Many people misunderstand the situations in China. Some thinks those defending China is being pro-red, but the truth is that many times they are unaware of their own actions. Many had become very ignorant and bigot of the situation and in the process, fell into slippery slope of attacking the people than the government. This situation happens in Hong Kong as well. In fact, a LOT of people hated the Party in Hong Kong. This is to the point many of them immigrated prior to 1997 for fear of the handover, including my family. Much people in Hong Kong loved democracy and freedom, and hated the Party. But we don't hate our people. We are angry at them when they come to Hong Kong and give us problems, but we certainly don't hate them as we are the same people, flowing the same Han blood, and we still align ourselves as Chinese at the end of the day. (Chinese being Han and not of political China) To us it's the political side of China we hate and not our own people. However to hear from a foreigner sounds as bad as being racially insulted. And then let's not forget, many times these ignorance did lead to racial insults. If you don't believe me, just click Page 1 of this thread and start counting. Afterwards, key in the word "China" on the search box and go through that small list of threads with the word "China" in the title. Start counting, and you'll realize how some of the members here are racially mocking the Chinese defendants on the board. We were taught the humiliation when the 8-power alliance invaded, raped, and looted China in the 1800s. They then carved up China for spheres of influences and numerous unequal treaties. Since then we bore a permanent suspicion towards the West. We felt the West are sinister towards us, and in fact this thought only strengthened with every negative actions we witness. So for example, the racial discrimination we tasted here in the West strengthened our thoughts. All those China-bashing in the media, "ching-chong" mockeries, physical tease, stereotypes in the Western media and movies, are prime examples. Also the fact is, we are indeed not treated as equals, therefore this thought will remain for years to come. For anyone who followed my posts as far as now, think to yourself. Are you criticizing China for its political and not the people? Or are you a racist mofo? Now I hope you people now understand why we Chinese feel the need to be strong. If we don't, we know all too well the West will come carve us up again. I also hope you guys know we didn't start this mentality - the West inflicted damages to us(carved our nation, looted and raped), and now we bear this thought.
This is why we don't take too kindly of others criticizing us and our nation.

However JP I understand what you're mean. Quite the same you don't want others to bash China without understanding the true situation.

Also as for the American problems, my thoughts are that the American society needs to revisit the culture in terms of spending. Also I think the military industrial complex is too rooted too deep into the country it's causing severe problems. The reason I say this is not because I'm pro-China or anything, but that at anytime, a country too militaristic becomes too dangerous for its own good. Take for Japan for example. After the Russo-Japanese war, the Imperial Japanese military were having too strong of an influence in Japan that it began to control the country itself. (I studied Japanese history at my institution). The emperor was basically a puppet, while the Japanese military leaders ran the show behind the scene. What I see in terms of problems with this happening in the US will be how the defense budget is also a heavy burden in the straining US economy where it's in terrible deficit. The B-1 is already $1 billion by itself. The rest of the military and all the carrier fleets, funds for upkeep, will only keep the budget growing until the US cannot sustain it. A big part to reducing the strains on the US will include controlling the military, otherwise no matter how much cuts other infrastructures are receiving, or how well other things are doing, trying to pull the US out of the red will be near impossible. This is something the US should pay a lot of attention to. This is because it's a huge warning. A red number will remain until the US make ends meet by making more than the expenditures and paying off the debt. Otherwise the red number will keep on climbing and it will only gets harder for the US to pay it off everyday for as long this drags on. I shouldn't have to lecture anyone about credit cards. And with that said, this means to include control some of the most expensive expenditures such as the military. And also pulling out of Iraq is the right choice. It is at least one less front to fight and relieves a heavy burden off the battle-worn troops, especially the psychological effects of those who are facing the threats of IEDs daily. However of course how willing are the Conservatives in doing this? Some say it's in US interests to remain in Iraq, but imo it's a greater interest for the US right now to lighten the financial burdens. Don't forget whatever happens, in the end it's the American public to suffer. Also the US cannot count on the rest of the world to be its safety net forever. While it is true the US remains the ventricle of the world and the world won't want the US to receive cardiac arrest, the world is slowly shifting its attention east. If the US really wants to be in competitive shape against the PRC, the US might as well start considering trimming down to shape. Also if the weight of the US gets too heavy, the world can't sustain, and then once US falls, the world follows. And of course others won't want this to happen, which is why there were talks of shifting the standard currency to RMB or EU before. I doubt it will happen for another long time, but for the US to take action should be now. Like the environment, it's better to take action when the trouble is light(in this case, the debt), before it's too late.

As for manipulating the currency, China is doing so for not only cost competitive advantages, but also make life easier to sustain for the domestic population. Whether what they're doing is correct or not, is up to debate.

[Blue P]

As for manipulating the currency, China is doing so for not only cost competitive advantages, but also make life easier to sustain for the domestic population. Whether what they're doing is correct or not, is up to debate.

a policy good for its countrymen is always a correct for the goverment.

[cn_habs]

Nice post Nighthawk, very detailed and well reasoned. You have given me some stuff to research. I am aware of the many of the facts RE the Uiyghur situation so I hope you would understand my umbrage when people comment of race problems in the US. It is not a simple subject and can not be summed up by mentioning the KKK.

My concerns are limited to American prospects in the next Century. We have sold much of our manufacturing capacity. Please do not underestimate the impact of Chinese government manipulation of their currency valuation. It is not a fair playing field, hence my blatant trolling by calling the Chinese government arrogant.

Peace...

How is saveguarding its national interest arrogant? It's not like we are forcing another nation to do something in our own interests. As a matter of fact, call it whatever you want but China is in control of its own destiny and has every reason to do so. The Yuan has been appreciating steadily by the way.

You'll spend the rest of your life puzzled if you never try to see others from their prospective.