Russia to facilitate Polish commemorations of Katyn massacre [Archive]

Afro-European

01-22-2010, 08:29 AM

Russia is ready to help Poland organize events to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre of Polish prisoners of war by the Soviet Union, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Friday.
Lavrov said Polish colleagues have informed Moscow of their plans for this year's commemoration of the 1940 execution of several thousand of Polish POWs, mainly officers and soldiers, in Katyn, western Russia, which has remained a sensitive issue in ties between Poland and Russia.
"We are interested in helping [Poland] implement those plans on Russian soil," Lavrov told a news briefing.
But Lavrov refused to say whether Russian leaders would attend the events.
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin moved to heal the rift over the massacre when he and other world leaders visited the former Communist-bloc state in September 2009 to mark the 70th anniversary of Nazi Germany's attack on Poland and the start of World War II.
Putin described the mass killings as a "crime" but called for "forgiveness."
The Soviet Union acknowledged the massacre, ordered by Joseph Stalin, in 1990. Modern Russia recognized Soviet responsibility for the mass shooting, but has not classified it as a war crime or genocide, something Warsaw has demanded.
Russia has resisted attempts to challenge the Soviet role in World War II, in which 27 million Soviet citizens died, according to official figures. Poland and former Soviet countries such as Ukraine and the Baltic States view Stalin's Soviet Union as an aggressor during the war and have compared it to Nazi Germany.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100122/157649440.html

Marmot1

01-22-2010, 09:09 AM

Good start... let's wait and see how it will go. But Personally I doubt there will be any progress over the main issue mentioned in article.

Atlantic Friend

01-22-2010, 09:17 AM

The Soviet Union acknowledged the massacre, ordered by Joseph Stalin, in 1990. Modern Russia recognized Soviet responsibility for the mass shooting, but has not classified it as a war crime or genocide, something Warsaw has demanded.

Polish demands sound a tad odd. If Russia acknowledges the massacre and recognizes Soviet responsibility (as it should, IMHO), is it to Russia to characterize of the shootings as a war crime (or a crime against humanity) as well? There aren't too many examples of mass shootings that do not fall into that category...

MZKT

01-22-2010, 03:58 PM

but has not classified it as a war crime or genocide, something Warsaw has demanded.

If 4000 poles are a genocide what are 400000 Iraqis then? Should every war be reclassified genocide, since every contained murder of civilians or POWs?

Also admitting war crimes on international level would be something quite new (apart from defeated Germany which was forced to do it, not a single country ever done it)

Niall

01-22-2010, 04:09 PM

How many generations does it take to clear the sins of our grandfathers? I don't see how the Russian Federation should have to apologise for an act the USSR conducted, when forcing Russia to call it genocide is just a sly way of putting the blame down to modern Russia.

Eye

01-22-2010, 04:19 PM

If 4000 poles are a genocide what are 400000 Iraqis then?
I'm sure you have made some mistake. About 22000 POW and other prisoners were murdered in that massacre.

Sidhardha

01-22-2010, 04:32 PM

Russia should excuse for that, no question. Its not about "guilt" of the new state and people - they are not, its about admiting a terrific mistake in history and mourning the lives of fallen. (That applyes to Poland too - because at same time about 20.000 Soviet captives died in Poland, though mainly not through executions, but hunger and diseases).

The worst thing, there are few historical cases where sides still dont even admit such things happened:

examples being US sponsored execution of North korean civilists and combatants by retreating South Korean troops - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/05/national/main4234885.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_4234885

And Japanese execution of its own citizens on Okinawa - http://www.japanfocus.org/-Aniya-Masaaki/2629

Redbeard

01-22-2010, 04:52 PM

Russia should excuse for that, no question. Its not about "guilt" of the new state and people - they are not, its about admiting a terrific mistake in history and mourning the lives of fallen. (That applyes to Poland too - because at same time about 20.000 Soviet captives died in Poland, though mainly not through executions, but hunger and diseases).

The deal is Russia =/= Soviet Union. When SU disolved all former SU states inherited the appropriate ammount of it's assets and debts. Likewise all of the SU constituent states at the time of Katyn massacre should apologize, not just Russia.

Flamming_Python

01-22-2010, 05:29 PM

I don't see why we should bend over for Poland. Most likely Russia just wants the business and some more gas pipelines.

All this takes place while Poland has just decided to host American air defence systems very close to Russian territory, possibly as a deliberate provocation; and continues to attempt to undermine Russia at every turn while providing support to Georgia.

IMHO we should adopt a no-talk policy and withdraw our ambassadors similar to what we have done with Georgia and the Ukraine; until the next elections in Poland and the adoption of a more friendly policy towards Russia.

LineDoggie

01-22-2010, 07:41 PM

If 4000 poles are a genocide what are 400000 Iraqis then? Should every war be reclassified genocide, since every contained murder of civilians or POWs?

Also admitting war crimes on international level would be something quite new (apart from defeated Germany which was forced to do it, not a single country ever done it) can you distinguish between "4000" POW's hands tied behind their backs being shot in the neck one at a time vs. "40,000 Iraqis able to fight, to move, to have a chance or are you just simply lashing out in order to deflect from the crime at Katyn?

A Better comparison would have been My Lai 4.

But Genocide? I agree, Katyn doesnt seem to fit the bill for that accusation. Germany's treatment of Soviet POW's fits that better.

CPL Trevoga

01-22-2010, 09:33 PM

can you distinguish between "4000" POW's hands tied behind their backs being shot in the neck one at a time vs. "40,000 Iraqis able to fight, to move, to have a chance or are you just simply lashing out in order to deflect from the crime at Katyn?

A Better comparison would have been My Lai 4.

But Genocide? I agree, Katyn doesnt seem to fit the bill for that accusation. Germany's treatment of Soviet POW's fits that better.

I have not seen anything that proves that Katyn was done by NKVD. During Neurenberg trubunal it was proven that it was done by the Nazis.

LineDoggie

01-22-2010, 10:25 PM

I have not seen anything that proves that Katyn was done by NKVD. During Neurenberg trubunal it was proven that it was done by the Nazis. Jesus, there are still some of you alive who believe such utter bull****?

Putin, Gorbachev, Yeltsin all said the Soviet Union was responsible mac. Argue with them, Your leaders admitted it years ago.

Eye

01-23-2010, 03:56 AM

Argue with them, Your leaders admitted it years ago.
Judging from description of CPL Trevoga's location they are not his leaders.

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 04:32 AM

when the Poles repent of savage destruction of 80 000 Red Army soldiers during the infamous Polish aggression against Russia in the 20-ies
After going to talk about Katyn ...
who was there who was killed.
where the alleged "documents" Courtyard surrounds lost Poles ..
why they lost them ...

my name again

01-23-2010, 04:41 AM

Judging from description of CPL Trevoga's location they are not his leaders.

Ah i see , people in Russia are not free!
You are such a joke...

daily666

01-23-2010, 04:49 AM

Ah i see , people in Russia are not free!
You are such a joke...

He doesn't live in Russia. Like many Russians here.

@CPL the Nurnberg Trial Katyn case was faked by the Soviets to blame the Nazis. It's disturbing there are still people out there who believe this.

@Red Templar: There was Polish-Russian joint comission on this Matter with Gennadij Matvejev from University of Moscow and Russian archivists. The conclusion and statement which confirmed their common publication: There were 80 0000-85 000 Soviet POWs. 16 000-20 000 diedbecause of various types if diseases(putrid fever, flu etc.). In 1921 Poland relaesed to Russia 65 000 POWs.As many as 16.000 Polish POWs died in Soviet POW Camps during the same time for the same reasons.

widi243

01-23-2010, 04:53 AM

hastati

01-23-2010, 05:50 AM

delete this post please

shoora

01-23-2010, 06:12 AM

Gorbachev, Yeltsin all said the Soviet Union was responsible mac. Argue with them, Your leaders admitted it years ago.
This is not an argument on historic question. They stupidly believed that blaming on SU will not have consequences for post communist Russia. They wanted western support and if somebody told that KGB eaten polish officers, Gorbi would also admit it. There indications that document, they shown, was fabricated in late 80s. In a same time many facts points that this was Nazis deeds.
Simple fact that Dr. Gebbels "discovered" this mass grave and precise time when this discovery was made makes me extremely suspicious.

daily666

01-23-2010, 06:55 AM

This is not an argument on historic question. They stupidly believed that blaming on SU will not have consequences for post communist Russia. They wanted western support and if somebody told that KGB eaten polish officers, Gorbi would also admit it. There indications that document, they shown, was fabricated in late 80s. In a same time many facts points that this was Nazis deeds.
Simple fact that Dr. Gebbels "discovered" this mass grave and precise time when this discovery was made makes me extremely suspicious.

Putin and later Medvedev never questioned the Katyn Massacre was performed by NKVD during the Soviet Union. Putin even admitted Katyn was a Stalinist crime. So they are also fond of Western Support?.

minimus

01-23-2010, 06:57 AM

A Better comparison would have been My Lai 4.

But Genocide? I agree, Katyn doesnt seem to fit the bill for that accusation. Germany's treatment of Soviet POW's fits that better.
My Lai wasn't planned. It was not govt policy. In fact it was not any policy.
IIRC argument for genocide is that it was planned extermination of the whole class of people - educated elites. In the area of Poland taken over by the Soviets in 1939 in cooperation with Germany, similar treatment was served to all the Polish elites, most being sent to the Gulags (entire families), some killed outright as in Katyn. The lower classes didn't have it easy either.

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 07:58 AM

Poles are not firing ... no!
they just tortured, selected clothing, placed in an open field did not feed, made people eat their feces (****)
I shot much better than the so die ....
=============
every "commissions" now, nowadays, like fleas on a dog ....
and who pays-that "girl" and "dancing "....
=============
and lies about 16,000 Poles reportedly died in captivity of Mordor ....
- Document, Please?

minimus

01-23-2010, 09:16 AM

Unlike this little fantasy:

Poles are not firing ... no!
they just tortured, selected clothing, placed in an open field did not feed, made people eat their feces (****)
I shot much better than the so die ....
Katyn is well documented.

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 09:32 AM

You lost the thread of discussion!
Talking about the mythical 16 000 Poles were killed in captivity in the 20-ies, at the same time when in Poland were savagely murdered 80 000 Red Army soldiers.
Well on Katyn, so that there is "good for documented"?
Or it seems to me that the Poles have lost even the fake and phony bills, which blinded with "marked" and alcoholic? :) ;)

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 09:37 AM

Poles didn't shoot unaremed prisoners in the back of a head Without even digging trough books: 1938 members of Karpathian Sich ~500 men, 1945 Verhovyna, civilians.

This way of differentiating Russians and Poles leads nowhere.

minimus

01-23-2010, 10:33 AM

Maybe you should do some digging?
And for now leave the comic books or the ones from Uncle Stalin Library.

hastati

01-23-2010, 10:35 AM

Talking about the mythical 16 000 Poles were killed in captivity in the 20-ies, at the same time when in Poland were savagely murdered 80 000 Red Army soldiers.

You are typical fanatic - limited knowledge and lot of loud screaming.
I'm just curious - where did you found this number of 80000 killed soldiers? Such a number came from early 90' and was a response of Russian/Soviet fanatic historians on Gorbachev words about Katyn.
How can you belive it if you said that we cannot trust any commisions?
What is interesting - this whole situation was called in russia anti-Katyn.

Facts are completly diffrent - After resarches of Polish and Russian independend historians there was published document(also in Russian language: "Krasnoarmiejcy w polskom plenu w 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentow i materiałow") which based on Polish and Russian(Soviet) informations.
Poland during that war took ~80000 POWs. After Treaty of Riga in 1921 Poland realesed ~65 000 POWs back to Russia. Number of people which died in this POW camps can be easilly counted as well as number of Poles which did not back from Soviet camps.
There wasn't any "mourders". All of them died on various types of diseases.
To explain why it happened i will paste part from my post from another topic.

Poland reborned just two years earlier - whole infrastructure was completly ruined during war or robbed by withdrawing German and Austran troops. There was not enought hospitals, doctors, medicines and many other things for ANYBODY.
During Polish-Soviet war died 60 000 Polish soldiers. Huge number of them died not in fight but because of same diseases as later Soviet POWs.
At that time yearly thousands of Polish citizens(womens, childrens and mans) died from the same reason - huge-scale epidemy!!!
Why? Because Poland was non-able to provide health care and food supplies for them.
Will you tell that we killed our citizens by purpouse?

I do not expect from this fanatic Russian here to belive it. I just wanted to show people from other ountries how ugly propaganda can came from some people and prevent spreading false info about my country.

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 10:51 AM

well of course it would be "all grievances" to both sides sank to the bottom.
otherwise there will be no end to this "partition of the corpses"
and start from scratch ....
but .... then go bankrupt almost all Polish media, firmly saddled this topic;):)

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 11:20 AM

According to Russia's sources, about 80 thousand from 200 thousand Red Army soldiers who fell in the Polish prisoners died from starvation, disease, torture, humiliation and executions
Paradise, NS
Polish-Soviet war of 1919-1920 and the fate of prisoners of war, internees, hostages and refugees. - M., 1999. ISBN 0-7734-7917-1
=======
why not our sources are correct, your right?
=======
and tens of thousands of Jews, too, is not destroyed during this war? "Or, God help them they will not take it, they are not the Red Army! so?
But these Jews too were citizens of Russia
killing Poles Rossiyskogo mission of the Red Cross on Jan. 2, 1919, was not there?
vobschem guilt at all enough!
And that's why I "fanatic" is not understandable!
here at this forum are visible threads from me-"bad Poles genocide against the Russian" seized the Kremlin and guzzled people "
No?
but I can see, cries .... ... about Katyn Katyn Katyn ... ....

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 12:16 PM

Maybe you should do some digging? Than list of unarmed prisoners killed by Poles during interwar period would be quite long. However those cases alone should suffice to illustrate the flaw in initial message.

And for now leave the comic books or the ones from Uncle Stalin Library. You best be joking, dude. However mentioning Stalin is quite a sign of an agenda-driven mentality.

daily666

01-23-2010, 12:50 PM

Are you guys really saying that Katyn was done by the Nazis?

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 12:58 PM

IMHO, almost 90% are fascists.

Lokos

01-23-2010, 01:03 PM

The Katyn massacre was perpetrated by Soviet authorities - there's not much ambiguity there, whatsoever. And it certainly constitutes a war-crime. It also constitutes genocide, according to the applicable definition.

Observe:

Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

- CPPCG

Is the Russian Federation responsible, legally or morally? Not in the least. Whilst expressions of sympathy and genuine regret should be freely and sincerely offered, the Federation owes no official apology to anyone. It is the successor state of the Soviet Union - but it is not the Soviet Union. There were, at one time, individual persons involved who should have been made accountable. But that time is long past, with the direct perpetrators and organizers quite dead.

L.

Stormz_STA

01-23-2010, 01:14 PM

It is the successor state of the Soviet Union

And as such it has some responsibilities for the actions of its predecessor. Just like modern Germany and the III Reich.

Eye

01-23-2010, 01:17 PM

And as such it has some responsibilities for the actions of its predecessor. Just like modern Germany and the III Reich.
I was about to post that, but it seemed to me to obvious.

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 01:34 PM

You are funny, Poles ....
forces my no ....
all clear to you ...
All you offend ...
All you have to ...
surrounded by enemies ...
poor and miserable .... have lost their country 4 times ....
may be worth a look in the mirror ... and ask, "Who is really to blame??" ;)

Stormz_STA

01-23-2010, 01:37 PM

"Who is really to blame??" ;)

You
.......

Eye

01-23-2010, 01:42 PM

You
.......
I was about to post that, but it seemed to me to obvious p-)

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 01:43 PM

And as such it has some responsibilities for the actions of its predecessor. Just like modern Germany and the III Reich.
That is incorrect. Russian Federation took only fraction of the responcibilities of the Soviet Union as a political entity. The same way Soviet union only partially was a successor of Russian Empire. Unless Russia voluntary accept responcibility and decides to took certain obligations as the result(via official channels) no-one is able to force them on her.

Stormz_STA

01-23-2010, 01:46 PM

Unless Russia voluntary accept responcibility and decides to took certain obligations as the result(via official channels) no-one is able to force them on her.

Nobody's going to force Russia to do anything. And I wasn't talking about any legal, financial or political responsibilities.

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 01:52 PM

And I wasn't talking about any legal, financial or political responsibilities. Really? I thought that mentioning 3rd Reich as an example meant exactly that. If not i'm curious what responsibilities you had in mind?

LineDoggie

01-23-2010, 01:53 PM

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 01:59 PM

ok!ok!
we are so we!
;)
it would be wrong-if it had not been guilty of evil Mordor
:)

Stormz_STA

01-23-2010, 02:00 PM

ok!ok!
we are so we!
;)

Can anyone translate this?

its a Haiku of inane

................

Stormz_STA

01-23-2010, 02:05 PM

Really? I thought that mentioning 3rd Reich as an example meant exactly that. If not i'm curious what responsibilities you had in mind?

Germans took moral responsibility for all war crimes, crimes against humanity etc. Nazi Germany commited during WWII. Russia should also take moral responsibility for Katyn and recognize Katyn for what it was - a war crime and genocide. And if you don't think Katyn Massacre was just that you should see Lokos' post in this thread

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 02:11 PM

we do not and to whom nothing more than not "required"!
my country has already paid off in full!
lives of their people ..... for 100 years before!
Understand?

Stormz_STA

01-23-2010, 02:12 PM

Understand?

Not really.

Flamming_Python

01-23-2010, 02:30 PM

Germans took moral responsibility for all war crimes, crimes against humanity etc. Nazi Germany commited during WWII. Russia should also take moral responsibility for Katyn and recognize Katyn for what it was - a war crime and genocide. And if you don't think Katyn Massacre was just that you should see Lokos' post in this thread

We should take responsibility for nothing without it being shared with other former Soviet states.

This is the same level of BS as allies trying to heap 'war guilt' all onto Germany following WW1.

Flamming_Python

01-23-2010, 02:34 PM

The Katyn massacre was perpetrated by Soviet authorities - there's not much ambiguity there, whatsoever. And it certainly constitutes a war-crime. It also constitutes genocide, according to the applicable definition.

Observe:

- CPPCG

Is the Russian Federation responsible, legally or morally? Not in the least. Whilst expressions of sympathy and genuine regret should be freely and sincerely offered, the Federation owes no official apology to anyone. It is the successor state of the Soviet Union - but it is not the Soviet Union. There were, at one time, individual persons involved who should have been made accountable. But that time is long past, with the direct perpetrators and organizers quite dead.

L.

It may have been a warcrime and a hideous one at that, and it's fairly certain that it was the NKVD/Stalin behind it, but it wasn't a genocide.

The massacre was not aimed at the Polish ethnicity, rather it was aimed as specific social classes within it (class being a purely social-economic construct rather than a complex social-ethnic-linguistic classification such as ethnicity, to which the term genocide can only be acceptably applied). I should also point out that these very same social classes were targetted and decimated among a great many ethnicities in the USSR around that time, including Russians. Should we therefore accuse Stalin of attempting to perform genocide on ethnic Russians too? Furthermore, were genocide of Poles the aim of Stalin, I dare say that he would have taken different measures to pursue these goals than a limited massacre such as Katyn.

MZKT

01-23-2010, 02:49 PM

The Katyn massacre was perpetrated by Soviet authorities - there's not much ambiguity there, whatsoever. And it certainly constitutes a war-crime. It also constitutes genocide, according to the applicable definition.

Observe:

- CPPCG

Is the Russian Federation responsible, legally or morally? Not in the least. Whilst expressions of sympathy and genuine regret should be freely and sincerely offered, the Federation owes no official apology to anyone. It is the successor state of the Soviet Union - but it is not the Soviet Union. There were, at one time, individual persons involved who should have been made accountable. But that time is long past, with the direct perpetrators and organizers quite dead.

L.

even if we assume Russian Federation = Sovietunion, there's still no necessity for excuses. UK, France, Spain etc never excused in front of it's colonies for centuries of subjugation, colonial wars etc, USA will never excuse in front of Vietnam, Iraq or Hiroshima victims, so why should Russia start with it? Apart from Germany, which was defeated and had no other choice, not a single country ever made official excuses on international area. Poland itself will never excuse for it's actions after destruction of west-ukrianian republic and subjugating it's population.

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 02:56 PM

Germans took moral responsibility for all war crimes, crimes against humanity etc. Nazi Germany commited during WWII. There are no similar ar even distantly equal cases in modern history to the consequences of ideology and actions done by Nazi Germany. Bringing her as an example is incorrect.

Russia should also take moral responsibility for Katyn There are no reasons for that. It was done under different government and different political atmosphere by people long dead. The legacy of this event died with Soviet Union.

and recognize Katyn for what it was - a war crime and genocide. The state of war was never established between Poland and SU, nor it can be viewed as a genocide considering official policy and number of Poles present and survived in SU(Anders for example, prisoners freed in 1939). It falls under crime against humanity category. However seeing how Poland could not forgot events more than half century old and untamed hatred towards unexisting country that affect their views on today's successor i can understand motives of goverment officials behind decision to reduce treat to the homeland in the wake of another war considering previous experience and relations between countries.

And if you don't think Katyn Massacre was just that you should see Lokos' post in this thread Since when mentioning Lokos became a magical argument?

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 03:11 PM

peter.pl

01-23-2010, 03:15 PM

during the infamous Polish aggression against Russia in the 20-ies
Polish what ? You are talking about war from 1920 ?

rhino

01-23-2010, 03:19 PM

even if we assume Russian Federation = Sovietunion, there's still no necessity for excuses. UK, France, Spain etc never excused in front of it's colonies for centuries of subjugation, colonial wars etc, USA will never excuse in front of Vietnam, Iraq or Hiroshima victims, so why should Russia start with it? Apart from Germany, which was defeated and had no other choice, not a single country ever made official excuses on international area. Poland itself will never excuse for it's actions after destruction of west-ukrianian republic and subjugating it's population.

read more, the mentioned states did appologized and made their reperations

The state of war was never established between Poland and SU, nor it can be viewed as a genocide considering official policy and number of Poles present and survived in SU(Anders for example, prisoners freed in 1939). It falls under crime against humanity category. However seeing how Poland could not forgot events more than half century old and untamed hatred towards unexisting country that affect their views on today's successor i can understand motives of goverment officials behind decision to reduce treat to the homeland in the wake of another war considering previous experience and relations between countries.

how it can be forgotten, it was a treacherous strike in the back:roll:

wouldnt you love another war:cantbeli:

Stormz_STA

01-23-2010, 03:38 PM

There are no similar ar even distantly equal cases in modern history to the consequences of ideology and actions done by Nazi Germany. Bringing her as an example is incorrect.

Not true. Communist atrocities are almost as bad as nazi crimes. Considering that those communist crimes were commited mostly against the people of SU it is odd that you, as a former citizen of the SU (am I right?), defend it.

It was done under different government and different political atmosphere by people long dead. The legacy of this event died with Soviet Union.

It's the same with Germany. Should Germans just don't give a fvck about what they did to Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians and other people from the SU?

The state of war was never established between Poland and SU.

The SU invaded Poland. That's an act of war if you ask me

i can understand motives of goverment officials behind decision to reduce treat to the homeland in the wake of another war .

Ok, I'm consuming some fine wine right now and maybe that's the reason why I dont understand the above statement.

Since when mentioning Lokos became a magical argument?

Since he moved to Oz.
;)

daily666

01-23-2010, 03:48 PM

On Topic. It's greatly welcomed gesture by the Russian Federation to help organising the event.

Great post Lokos.

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 04:25 PM

Not true. Communist atrocities are almost as bad as nazi crimes. That's your ignorance and prejudice speaking.

Considering that those communist crimes were commited mostly against the people of SU it is odd that you, as a former citizen of the SU (am I right?), defend it. Because obviously i know more about that period. Also, i'm not defending any crimes, no need to put up things things i never stood for.

It's the same with Germany. No. The responsibility was imposed by winning countries. It leads me to the question - why you are bringing up things you have limited knowledge of? Or are you purposely omitting certain circumstances?

Should Germans just don't give a fvck about what they did to Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians and other people from the SU? Equating Katyn to german extermination program is way over the top.

The SU invaded Poland. That's an act of war if you ask me Poland as a coherent entity ceazed to exist 2 days before SU "invasion". I can remind you that polish government finally fled the country 8 hours after SU troops crossed border.

Ok, I'm consuming some fine wine right now and maybe that's the reason why I dont understand the above statement. That certainly explain a lot.

Stormz_STA

01-23-2010, 04:54 PM

That's your ignorance and prejudice speaking.

I'm not prejudiced against anyone or anything. These are facts.

Because obviously i know more about that period.

Or maybe you just think you don't have a choice but to defend it.

It leads me to the question - why you are bringing up things you have limited knowledge of?

What things? And why do you think I have limited knowledge of those things?

Or are you purposely omitting certain circumstances?

What circumstances?

Equating Katyn to german extermination program is way over the top.

I wasn't really an equation

Poland as a coherent entity ceazed to exist 2 days before SU "invasion". I can remind you that polish government finally fled the country 8 hours after SU troops crossed border.

Poland never ceased to exist. Just because it was under the German and Soviet boot doesn't mean it didn't have a legitimate government, judiciary system, school system etc.

That certainly explain a lot.

It explains only that you didn't make any sense in that statement.

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 05:28 PM

read more, the mentioned states did appologized and made their reperations

how it can be forgotten, it was a treacherous strike in the back:roll:

wouldnt you love another war:cantbeli:
treacherous stab in the back?
nonsense!
"treacherous"-they were friends ... and suddenly became the enemy!
our situation was different:
for 20 years before the "events", Poland, as a hyena, using the weakness of Russia (revolution, civil war, intervention), nibbled a piece of Russia.
a year before the "events" together with Hitler (who by this time clearly perceived as "the enemy"), broke the Czechs, that we would like to help! Plus this is not ceasing cries of the world as Poland will destroy the Mongol-katsapskih, commies-pigs!
What kind of "betrayal"?
======
Poland when the country ceased to exist, we took back his own piece! and not one centimeter from the top!
is true and correct

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 05:33 PM

I'm not prejudiced against anyone or anything. Your posts say otherwise.

These are facts. No facts were present.

Or maybe you just think you don't have a choice but to defend it. I already gave you an answer, simple and clear. No need to assume anything.

What things? And why do you think I have limited knowledge of those things? What circumstances? Familiarise yourself with the way Germany took obligations to compensate for the damages done.

I wasn't really an equation The way you presented German responsibility for the harm done says quite the opposite.

Poland never ceased to exist. Yeah, in the hearts and minds and all that..

Just because it was under the German and Soviet boot doesn't mean it didn't have a legitimate government, judiciary system, school system etc. Poland de-facto was destroyed. And recreated only thanks to SU will and Allied pressure. Govermenment in exile existed only thanks to generosity and political necessity of GB government. And when its usefulness reached its limit, was flushed down the toilet. That's reality. No amount of patriotic chestbeating will change the fact, that political entity known as Poland ended it's existance and for the time became part of other countries.

It explains only that you didn't make any sense in that statement. Inability to grasp simple notion is your problem, and yours alone.

Eye

01-23-2010, 06:23 PM

Poland de-facto was destroyed.
There was plan do defend on Romanian Bridgehead. That's why gov moved from Warsaw to the area near Romanian border. Of course that plan was ruined thanks to Soviet-German cooperation.

And recreated only thanks to SU will and Allied pressure.

So, we should be grateful? But you should remeber that we haven't had such poroblems if not WW2 and you should remember that start of WW2 was German-Soviet join in venture.

CaptMorgan68

01-23-2010, 06:30 PM

Good move by Russia. I see nothing wrong with Russia actually admitting mistakes committed by a communist Georgian leader of the USSR. Polish people suffered. Russians suffered. Arguably the Russians suffered from Stalin's repressions even more than any other ethnic group. It was a tragedy. It has to be recognized if it means better relations with Poland and Eastern Europe and if everyone then puts it behind and moves on to having pragmatic mutually benefiting relations based on economic cooperation. But recognizing the crime at Katyn does not mean Russia has to agree to it being labeled as a genocide. Genocide is what the Turks did to the Armenians. This was a military crime.

therifleman

01-23-2010, 06:47 PM

There are no reasons for that. It was done under different government and different political atmosphere by people long dead. The legacy of this event died with Soviet Union.

If thats the way you feel then why the hell did Russia have a May 9th victory parade commemorating their victory in 1945. With the good ol' red flag and all. A change of government doesn't mean a nation can suddenly forget it's history. The United States hasn't. And Germany certainly hasn't.

CaptMorgan68

01-23-2010, 07:03 PM

If thats the way you feel then why the hell did Russia have a May 9th victory parade commemorating their victory in 1945. With the good ol' red flag and all. A change of government doesn't mean a nation can suddenly forget it's history.

These guys are just going by old cliches of simply just denying everything.. Russia is a successor to the USSR and hence has the right but not the obligation to admit that certain mistakes were made by the Stalinist regime. Katyn was a military crime. At the same time many former Russian POWs returning from German POW camps were were being prosecuted and executed by NKVD firing squads. Those that weren't executed faced death in GULAG camps. So it wasn't just the Polish officers that the similar crimes were committed against. We live in different times. Russia is no longer communist and it would be ok to recognize the fact Katyn did happen and that it was a military crime committed by Stalin's regime. Russia and Poland should put all these grievances behind them and work towards having better relations.

MZKT

01-23-2010, 07:56 PM

read more, the mentioned states did appologized and made their reperations Care to elaborate? At least one example.

Good move by Russia. I see nothing wrong with Russia actually admitting mistakes committed by a communist Georgian leader of the USSR. there was no georgian leader of USSR, there was a soviet leader of USSR. Admitting mistakes in historical context is right and necessary. Admitting mistakes in context of international politics would just create new demands, that the reason no country ever did it. No Pole even dreams of admitting mistakes in front of ukraine for Pilsudkis politics on their soil following 1920.

This defensive approach to trying to segregate russian past from soviet past is idiotic, it's just one common past. Either Russia stands to it, or it should completely abandon soviet heritage, like returning Kaliningrad to Germany, Vyborg to Finland etc.

When USA is accussed of Iraq aggression, are they saying "Oh no, don't accuse us, accuse the governor of Texas, Bush was a texan"? No, they just say "F**k off".

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 08:37 PM

CaptMorgan68

01-23-2010, 08:42 PM

LineDoggie

01-23-2010, 08:45 PM

These guys are just going by old cliches of simply just denying everything.. Russia is a successor to the USSR and hence has the right but not the obligation to admit that certain mistakes were made by the Stalinist regime. Katyn was a military crime. At the same time many former Russian POWs returning from German POW camps were were being prosecuted and executed by NKVD firing squads. Those that weren't executed faced death in GULAG camps. So it wasn't just the Polish officers that the similar crimes were committed against. We live in different times. Russia is no longer communist and it would be ok to recognize the fact Katyn did happen and that it was a military crime committed by Stalin's regime. Russia and Poland should put all these grievances behind them and work towards having better relations. One thing I never understood was sending your own men who survived German POW camps to the gulags or executing them. Was the Government that paranoid that the men were tainted by non communist ideals?

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 08:53 PM

There was plan do defend on Romanian Bridgehead. That's why gov moved from Warsaw to the area near Romanian border. Ahem, they went straight to Romania. And were interned. There were many plans, however reality check was too hard.

Of course that plan was ruined thanks to Soviet-German cooperation. No. It was ruined when polish government decided to abandon country. Care to post when polish government and high command announced their escape?

So, we should be grateful? Why not? At least you had the chance to have your own state. You could've ended having treatment Poland gave to Ukrainians during interwar period for example. You know - destruction of churches, denial of education, forced colonisation and so on.

But you should remeber that we haven't had such poroblems if not WW2 Annihilation of the country? I don't know. However seing how Poland successfully antagonised SU and Germany, while preventing any sort of working alliance to be created against any of those countries i think sooner or later she would've received her price.

and you should remember that start of WW2 was German-Soviet join in venture. No, enough with this nonsense.

CaptMorgan68

01-23-2010, 08:54 PM

One thing I never understood was sending your own men who survived German POW camps to the gulags or executing them. Was the Government that paranoid that the men were tainted by no communist ideals?

They were all considered spies or Vlasovtsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army) by NKVD based on personal orders from Stalin. The real reasons behind all of that had to do with more than just govt's paranoia. SU leadership understood they needed resources to recover quickly once WW2 was over and there was little in the way of international loans Soviet Union could hope for to support its recovery. Forced labor was the next best thing and pretty much the only tool at Russia's disposal. GULAG laborers were used extensively in the post war reconstruction efforts. Almost every major construction and industrial effort was manned by forced labor in the early stages. Even those who weren't GULAG prisoners were under constant threat of being sent to a labor camp. One could end up in one just for being late to work at a factory.

MZKT

01-23-2010, 08:56 PM

That is quite a constructive approach to this whole thing. Just say "Poland **** off with Katyn." Wow. It's good that you are not in charge of Russia's foreign policy and diplomacy.

Plus if you haven't noticed the US is not much loved around the world these days...

Much more loved than russia which has no allies nor friends anymore. US foreign policy is objectively much more effective then Russia's. Notice that nobody even dares to demand reparations from USA for it's past.

One thing I never understood was sending your own men who survived German POW camps to the gulags or executing them. Was the Government that paranoid that the men were tainted by no communist ideals?

Only a small percentage was sent to Gulag and even less were executed. The reasons for those screenings was that Vlasov's army was recruited from POWs

CaptMorgan68

01-23-2010, 09:01 PM

Much more loved than russia which has no allies nor friends anymore. US foreign policy is objectively much more effective then Russia's. Notice that nobody even dares to demand reparations from USA for it's past.

Only a small percentage was sent to Gulag and even less were executed. The reasons for those screenings was that Vlasov's army was recruited from POWs

I rest my case. It makes no sense arguing with you after statements like these.

Flamming_Python

01-23-2010, 09:02 PM

Care to elaborate? At least one example.

there was no georgian leader of USSR, there was a soviet leader of USSR. Admitting mistakes in historical context is right and necessary. Admitting mistakes in context of international politics would just create new demands, that the reason no country ever did it. No Pole even dreams of admitting mistakes in front of ukraine for Pilsudkis politics on their soil following 1920.

This defensive approach to trying to segregate russian past from soviet past is idiotic, it's just one common past. Either Russia stands to it, or it should completely abandon soviet heritage, like returning Kaliningrad to Germany, Vyborg to Finland etc.

When USA is accussed of Iraq aggression, are they saying "Oh no, don't accuse us, accuse the governor of Texas, Bush was a texan"? No, they just say "F**k off".

Well you're right, of course if we celebrate Soviet achievements and are proud of good things during the Soviet era, then we should admit Soviet atrocities too.
And of course Stalin was a Soviet leader; it makes no sense to assign the responsibilities of different periods on Soviet history on specific ex-Soviet republics, based on the ethnicity of the leader at that time.

Actually I don't have such a provocative opinion as I expressed in the last few posts :) I'm glad that Russia is co-operating with Poland on the Katyn issue and is trying to improve relations. Nevertheless there are several points that need to be addressed.

1. Russia admitted to Katyn a long time ago, back in the 90's, and before it the USSR I believe admitted to it in the late 1980's. Yet it continues to be a hot issue in Polish domestic politics, with renewed demands that Russia should 'admit' to it again. According to various Polish members here, the reason is that Russia is conducting a campaign of 're-stalinisation'. Upon examination of the facts, this accusation is clearly false (the main evidence consists of a restored plaque in a Moscow metro station); and in any case the Polish demands began a long time back, before any supposed 're-stalinisation' started taking place.

2. Just like most ex-Soviet republics still celebrate 9th of May as a victory day, so too were they also part of the USSR. Why Poland is only making demands of Russia, seems to me to be pretty unreasonable, and I would hasten to say that this is due to political reasons; Poland doesn't mind bad political relations with Russia and a cold war against Russia's influence. Of course one of the ways to achieve this would be to turn its neighbours against it; and to accomplish that - well it wouldn't do to start making accusations of them. Thus, from Russia's perspective, Poland can be seen as making unreasonable demands.

3. While of course, it is simply a responsible thing to do to look at history in a critical light and admit wrongdoings; at the same time common diplomatic sense would dictate that you do not give any concessions to a nation that is actively attempting to provoke and ruin relations with you, and give support to enemy governments of yours. While Russian leaders have not too long ago visited Poland, made many concilliatory statements and are now facilitating another round of commemorations; Poland has just decided to host American bases not far from Russian soil. It seems that no matter what Russia does or however many times it admits to Katyn (which by point 2, it has no obligation to do); relations are not being improved and the same issue of Katyn is continued to be used to incite Russophobia in Poland. It creates the impression that Katyn is simply an excuse for Poland pursuing the sort of politics in Eastern Europe that it is. Upon the settlement of the Katyn issue, there is no reason to believe that some other greviance won't just be found and used in its place.

Mango Madness

01-23-2010, 09:02 PM

One thing I never understood was sending your own men who survived German POW camps to the gulags or executing them. Was the Government that paranoid that the men were tainted by non communist ideals?

It's because they were considered or suspected of being traitors. Many Nazi collaborators existed during the war that were spies or saboteurs for Germany, eg Soviet POW that "escaped" from Nazi captivity was actually a spy for Germany. Hence Soviets whose movements were unknown were grilled by counter-intelligence when they returned, which often resulted in innocent people being found guilty, however it was also effective at catching German agents.

TakeIt

01-23-2010, 09:03 PM

They were all considered spies or Vlasovtsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army). Wha...? Apart of flamebaiting and derailing this is simply incorrect. The data is available on the net.

CaptMorgan68

01-23-2010, 09:11 PM

Wha...? Apart of flamebaiting and derailing this is simply incorrect. The data is available on the net.

I did not say they were. As far as NKVD was concerned anyone that's been to a German POW camp was as good as a spy. There were not only political and security but also economic factors behind that way of reasoning. Where is the flamebait in that?

Anyways like I said Russia is doing all the right moves when it comes to its relations with Poland right now and I am glad that the Russian leadership is not as narrow-minded as some members of this forum are.

Red Templar

01-23-2010, 09:15 PM

I rest my case. It makes no sense arguing with you after statements like these.
ie you disposes of the figures sent to the gulag after the captivity?

CaptMorgan68

01-23-2010, 09:18 PM

3. While of course, it is simply a responsible thing to do to look at history in a critical light and admit wrongdoings; at the same time common diplomatic sense would dictate that you do not give any concessions to a nation that is actively attempting to provoke and ruin relations with you, and give support to enemy governments of yours. While Russian leaders have not too long ago visited Poland, made many concilliatory statements and are now facilitating another round of commemorations; Poland has just decided to host American bases not far from Russian soil. It seems that no matter what Russia does or however many times it admits to Katyn (which by point 2, it has no obligation to do); relations are not being improved and the same issue of Katyn is continued to be used to incite Russophobia in Poland. It creates the impression that Katyn is simply an excuse for Poland pursuing the sort of politics in Eastern Europe that it is. Upon the settlement of the Katyn issue, there is no reason to believe that some other greviance won't just be found and used in its place.

The settlement would be a first step in the right direction. Russia is currently engaged in pursuing a "soft power" approach when it comes to relations with Eastern European neighbors. Whether it yields any positive results is yet to be seen but this method sure is better the "fvck off" type of diplomacy suggested by MZKT.

Lokos

01-23-2010, 09:45 PM

Germans took moral responsibility for all war crimes, crimes against humanity etc. Nazi Germany commited during WWII.

This is true, to an extent (the GDR never took responsibility for the Nazi regime). But that was a very specific case, and drawing parallels to the Soviet Union's involvement in the Katyn Massacre is stretching it a bit too far. Germans of the time, ostensibly, felt a sense of collective responsibility for the various and voluminous crimes committed by the Third Reich. Katyn was organized in secret and carried out by a very small collection of individuals, and was kept classified until the eve of the break-up of the state in question. Responsibility, therefore, can be narrowed to those individuals.

but it wasn't a genocide

According to the definition I offered (and the currently accepted one), it stands as genocide.

The massacre was not aimed at the Polish ethnicity,

This is a very fuzzy mode of reasoning. A genocide does not always have to have an ethnic component. Even in the case of the Holocaust, that should be quite apparent. After all, Judaism is first and foremost a religion, is it not? Or what of the Khmer Rouge? Was that not a genocide, on account of the targets often being as simple as 'people wearing glasses, who therefore must be inteligentzia, and therefore must be a danger to the state'?

Remember: ... 'in whole, or in part...'

UK, France, Spain etc never excused in front of it's colonies for centuries of subjugation, colonial wars etc

Are you sure that's a fact? No single event in colonial history was apologized for by the colonial powers?

Assuming that's the case, what is the connection of the above with the Katyn Massacre?

Poland itself will never excuse for it's actions after destruction of west-ukrianian republic and subjugating it's population.

Apologies for my simplicity, but I have never believed that one's wrong is measured against the wrong of another - or excused by it. Would it be right for the Poles to apologize for certain events in their history that harmed other peoples? Assuredly. Would it be right to say that Russia expresses regret (if not admits culpability on any level) for the Katyn Massacre? Absolutely.

This defensive approach to trying to segregate russian past from soviet past is idiotic, it's just one common past.

There are unbreakable bonds of historical, cultural, social and traditional continuities in place, you are correct. But just as a son does not bear legal or moral responsibility for the actions of the father (apart from in very, very specific circumstances), it is important to state that the Federation does not bear legal or moral responsibility for the actions of certain governments of the Soviet Union. But there should be some expression of regret, of support and of understanding. This seems only right. Compassion is not culpability. The 'defensive approach' is better characterized by attempts to whitewash Soviet history. There is no need.

When USA is accussed of Iraq aggression, are they saying "Oh no, don't accuse us, accuse the governor of Texas, Bush was a texan"? No, they just say "F**k off"

That isn't an appropriate parallel. The Federal Republic in question has been a legal continuity for well over a century.

One thing I never understood was sending your own men who survived German POW camps to the gulags or executing them. Was the Government that paranoid that the men were tainted by non communist ideals?

The vast majority were screened and sent home, or back to the front lines. A small minority was held for a period. A much smaller minority was executed. Mostly, these were individuals suspected of involvement in Vlasov's formations, or that of other German-sponsored Soviet POW units.

I will end on the following note:

When all is said and done - and as much as the Russians should express solidarity with their Polish neighbors and regret over that episode of their mutual history - Katyn should not become a political battleground. The Russian government expressing these sentiments should not be seen as a political 'victory' by the Polish government or individuals therein. That's the sort of thinking that needlessly makes these issues difficult to resolve.

L.

Dercius

01-23-2010, 10:08 PM

Is the Russian Federation responsible, legally or morally? Not in the least. Whilst expressions of sympathy and genuine regret should be freely and sincerely offered, the Federation owes no official apology to anyone. It is the successor state of the Soviet Union - but it is not the Soviet Union. There were, at one time, individual persons involved who should have been made accountable. But that time is long past, with the direct perpetrators and organizers quite dead.

x2

And for our polish friends, I would add, that only the defeated recognize the crimes they comitted, or admit about having comitted fabulations forged by the victors. The victorious never have to recognize or admit anything. Thats real politics, and thats what happens in the real world.

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Gandhi

"War gives the right of the conquerors to impose any conditions they please upon the vanquished" Caesar

Just for your thoughts

CPL Trevoga

01-24-2010, 12:34 AM

Jesus, there are still some of you alive who believe such utter bull****?

Putin, Gorbachev, Yeltsin all said the Soviet Union was responsible mac. Argue with them, Your leaders admitted it years ago.

This is true, but Gorbachev, Yeltsin had very strong anti-communist agenda so these guys are suspect. It played well into their agenda. Make no mistake, there are Polish soldiers buried in Katyn, so Putin's position is understandable, but according to http://www.katyn.ru/ , very disturbing facts arise. Most of the killed had documents on them and buried in large pits, signature style of the Germans. NKVD took all the documents from their prisoners and usually used small pits for executions. Besides projectiles and casings of German used caliber. I have not seen the Polish websites that present any evidence. Most of them report the truth according to brother Kaczyński and evidence unearthed by Nazis. The only reason why Soviet could be a suspect, is that during the same time, Great Purges occurred, so NKVD was capable conducting such operation.

eskachig

01-24-2010, 01:57 AM

Besides projectiles and casings of German used caliber.
Dude, seriously?

Blokhin—outfitted in a leather butcher's a****, cap, and shoulder-length gloves to protect his uniform[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin#cite_note-Stanford-102-8)—then pushed the prisoner against the log wall and shot him once in the base of the skull with a German Walther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_arms) Model 2 .25 ACP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP) pistol.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin#cite_note-Remnick-5-9) He had brought a briefcase full of his own Walther pistols, since he did not trust the reliability of the standard-issue Soviet TT-30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_pistol) for the frequent, heavy use he intended.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin#cite_note-Stanford-102-8)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin#cite_note-10) The use of a German pocket pistol, which was commonly carried by Nazi intelligence agents, also provided plausible deniability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability) of the executions if the bodies were discovered later.At this point, denying that Stalin ordered those executions is ludicrous. As to classification - genocide: no, war crime: yes. The secrecy with which this operation was carried out contributes to the attitude of the average Russian - very few people knew about it, very few people could've stopped it, and the people involved did so many other bad things that this episode sort of gets lost in the wash.

TakeIt

01-24-2010, 03:53 AM

As far as NKVD was concerned anyone that's been to a German POW camp was as good as a spy.BS. In that case no-one would be bothered to check up people returning from the captivity. In some cases the work continued for decades, with people being either punished or rehabilitated/awarded due to the information found.

There were not only political and security but also economic factors behind that way of reasoning. Where is the flamebait in that? Because you insist on reason that never were, while information is freely available. Krivosheev's and Zemskov's data is widely known, as well as the pretext for creation of filtration camps. Also - this is off-topic.

Red Templar

01-24-2010, 04:39 AM

Blokhin—outfitted in a leather butcher's a****, cap, and shoulder-length gloves to protect his uniform[9]—then pushed the prisoner against the log wall and shot him once in the base of the skull with a German Walther Model 2 .25 ACP pistol.[10] He had brought a briefcase full of his own Walther pistols, since he did not trust the reliability of the standard-issue Soviet TT-30 for the frequent, heavy use he intended.[9][11] The use of a German pocket pistol, which was commonly carried by Nazi intelligence agents, also provided plausible deniability of the executions if the bodies were discovered later.magically ridiculous nonsense!
where did you get this fake?

cmc

01-24-2010, 04:51 AM

magically ridiculous nonsense!
where did you get this fake?

Try following the links in the original text (you see those numbers?)

Eye

01-24-2010, 07:21 AM

x2

"War gives the right of the conquerors to impose any conditions they please upon the vanquished" Caesar

I don't think Caesar is any kind of moral authority. "Live by the sword, die by the sword" could be warning for such who would like to pretend Caesar nowadays.

CPL Trevoga

01-24-2010, 12:38 PM

Dude, seriously?
At this point, denying that Stalin ordered those executions is ludicrous. As to classification - genocide: no, war crime: yes. The secrecy with which this operation was carried out contributes to the attitude of the average Russian - very few people knew about it, very few people could've stopped it, and the people involved did so many other bad things that this episode sort of gets lost in the wash.

Why Soviet would try to make it look like a German crime, when in 1940 they had a non-aggression pact, Germany was fighting with France, Britain and only a mad man would think that Germans would attack USSR. In 1988 mass graves from Great Purges were found near Kurapaty, Minsk. Casings and projectiles found inside the graves were all 7.62 from Nagant and TT pistols issued to NKVD. From what I've read, area of Katyn was used as NKVD execution grounds for Sowiet citizen as well so execution of Polish officers by Stalin has merits. He did killed most of his own officer corps during Great purges, but some suspicion does arise because of the circumstances.

Eye

01-24-2010, 01:02 PM

Why Soviet would try to make it look like a German crime, when in 1940 they had a non-aggression pact,
AFAIK mass graves of Polish POWs were revealed by Germans in 1941 after their attack on SU. After that Soviets started to create their fake story.

Germany was fighting with France, Britain and only a mad man would think that Germans would attack USSR.
I think it's true, but it's surprise for me. I wouldn't expected such statement from hardline Russia strong member :) "Necessary precautions before German's attack" is the main excuse of SU aggression on Poland, Baltics, Finland and Romania and suddenly we hear that only a mad man would think that Germans would attack USSR - its best ally as to that time.

CPL Trevoga

01-24-2010, 08:58 PM

AFAIK mass graves of Polish POWs were revealed by Germans in 1941 after their attack on SU. After that Soviets started to create their fake story.

During 1937-1939, according to NKVD numbers, around 680,000 Sowiet citizens went through judicial system and were sentenced to death for various crimes. I would be lying if I said that Sowiets could not have done it, they certainly executed a lot of their own people during that time. All I'm saying is that I have some suspicions.

I think it's true, but it's surprise for me. I wouldn't expected such statement from hardline Russia strong member :) "Necessary precautions before German's attack" is the main excuse of SU aggression on Poland, Baltics, Finland and Romania and suddenly we hear that only a mad man would think that Germans would attack USSR - its best ally as to that time.

You can reinterpret Sowiet actions in many ways, preparation for possible German war is one of them, I don't know what went through Stalin's head. As for Germany, they were fighting a war with allies, so fighting on two fronts was a repeat of the same mistake Germans made in WWI. The territories of Baltics, Western Belarus, Finland and Moldova all belong to Russia before WW1, but due to Brist-Litowsk peace treaty were given up by Bolshewiks. Essentially Stalin was taking back Russian territories and most joined back without firing a shot, for exeption of Finns. You can present WW2 as an event in history when Germans and Sowiets started attacking their peaceful neighbors and such, but it wasn't simple like that. WW2 was caused by events that followed the end of WW1, if you understand that, you can understand that current presentation of history is one sided propaganda. There are no "good guys" in politics.

shadowsrider

01-25-2010, 10:29 AM

Flamming_Python

01-25-2010, 12:23 PM

shoora

01-25-2010, 01:44 PM

It is hard to expect that some Russians will recognize Stalinist regime victims while there is still not enough recognition for OWN RUSSIAN victims. Russia seems to be just at the beginning of the process of facing what the system done to its own society. The numbers and what happened is known to scientists but the society definitelly have not faced it yet. Medevev just started condemning Stalinist regime. Putin represents the other part of Russian conscience saying: he was cruel but he made our country a superpower.
While the truth is simple: its Russians and other citizens who made USSR the superpower.
I afraid, real picture would be quite disappointing and dream breaking for you. So, I WOULD NOT expect understanding from audience here. Simple numbers of census do not have capacity to fit tens of millions of victims of Stalinist regime. "сто-питсон мильёнов замучиных", as Russian "liberals" are saying.

1897 125640021 (including Poland, Finland, Latvia, Litva, Estonia)

BANG! WWI happen, then dark years of civil war, white and red terror.
Russian Empire dissolved. USSR then is Russian Empire minus Poland, Finnland, Baltian repiblics and so-called Western Ukraine.

1926 147027915

BANG! Industrialization. "Holodomor", Collectivization. According to modern applied history these events killed tens of millions.

1937 questioned in 10 days and never released
but preliminary data 162003225 (was expected 165M) shows population sustained growth of population approximately 1% a year,
which is significantly higher than in England (0.36%/year), Germany(0.58%/year), France (0.11%/year), USA (0,66%/year), equal to Italian (1,02%/year) and less than Japan (1.37%/year)
(I must note that USA had growth 0.66% BEFORE 1934. When happen what's now some people like to call "American Holodomor".)

BANG! Great purge and "decapitation" of Red Army.

1939 170557093 (still record breaking growth)

BANG! WWII. Regained Western Ukraine and Galicia.

1959 208826650

1970 241720134

1979 262084654

1989 285742511

BANG! FREEDOM at last!!!

2002 Russian Federation lost 1.8M people in 13 years!

Open question is who is more effective killer democratic Eltsin or bloody communist tyrants regime. "Digested" information suggested to general public by modern "historians" and politicians across nations is not accurate enough even to coexist with simple census results. What are we talking about?
Note: SoLZHEnitsin estimated up to 60 millions of Stalin's victims. Some Ukrainians today believe that in Ukrainean SSR (without Western Ukraine) Stalijn killed 14 millions. WWII combined civilian and military losses is 27 millions.

MZKT

01-25-2010, 02:36 PM

I would imagine, that if any slightly more positive view of Stalin's period is developing; than it is a counter-reaction to the very thorough de-Stalinisation that characterised the USSR for several decades; or else simply a consenquence of the newer generations growing up, that are far removed from that time.

This view developed cause people learn to appreciate something only after they loose it. Stalin turned a ressource-export economy to an industrial superpower with all the associated attributes (health, education, social security, employment norms, purchasing power, life standard etc) but after enjoying those achievements for certain time people began to take them as granted. It required Jelzin and his successors who turned an industrial superpower to ressource-export economy with a destroyed social system, falling life standard, skyrocketing crime and diseases, dying science and education and large parts of population sinking into poverty to remember that those are not granted.

I did not say they were. As far as NKVD was concerned anyone that's been to a German POW camp was as good as a spy. There were not only political and security but also economic factors behind that way of reasoning. Where is the flamebait in that?The flamebait is complete lack of knowledge about the true numbers, instead operating with long-revelaed perestroika myths like "all were suspected spies and killed/sent to Gulag."

If NKVDs suspected anyone been to a German POW camp was as good as a spy, why did they performed the screening on less then 20% of the released prisoners and less then 6% being convicted? Quite contradicting with:

They were all considered spies or Vlasovtsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army) by NKVD based on personal orders from Stalin.

It is hard to expect that some Russians will recognize Stalinist regime victims while there is still not enough recognition for OWN RUSSIAN victims. Russia seems to be just at the beginning of the process of facing what the system done to its own society. The numbers and what happened is known to scientists but the society definitelly have not faced it yet.Exactly. The real numbers are now known and turned to be much lower then dissident's cries about 60Mln victims popular during the Perestroika years and anarchism of the 90s. The reason for those deliberate lies and their support from Jelzin government were obvious: To justify a bloody regime which destroys the economy and brings poverty on millions it was necessary to make the previous regime look even bloodier. At least the initial anti-soviet hystery finally ceased in Russia, despite some still rather believe myths then archives.

On the other side it's of course right to ask if it's important if Stalin killed 3 or 60 Mln, anyway every single innocent victim being a crime. But since exactly the numbers are the source for most of anti-stalinist-hystery, it's important to name the real ones and not solshenizyns infamous hallucinations. And apart from mnumbers it's also necessary to review other aspects of Stalin's regime, which anti-stalinists try to ignore and cover under their bloated crime numbers. Is it so hard to understand that 30 years of Stalin's reign contained some other things apart from "NKVD,Gulag,Barrier units,Holodomor, every other form of pure evil etc" multiplied by several times of their real amount? But exactly those other aspects are something which are tried to be avoided in any Stalin-related discussion by throwing around statements like "all POWs sent to Gulag", "every NKVD-arrested sentenced" etc.

Putin represents the other part of Russian conscience saying: he was cruel but he made our country a superpower.
While the truth is simple: its Russians and other citizens who made USSR the superpower. Funny, classical russian-nationalist-style BS, but from a pole. Everything good achieved by SU is achievement of soviet citizens, but everything bad by an individual georgian. That don't work. Soviet citizens won the war and soviet citizens guarded the gulags. Or Stalin engineered the terror regime and engineered soviet victory in WW2. Not "Factories built by soviet citizens while gulag fence built by Stalin". Dividing responsibility in common achievements but only-individual-crimes don't work.

Kilgor

01-25-2010, 07:01 PM

You know nothing about Russia or how society developed for the past several decades. For your information Stalinism was denounced 54 years ago at the 20th party congress by Krushchev; and this wasn't just a speech by the leader, it reverberated throughout all society and led to a far more critical view of the Stalin years.

Denouced in private, later retracted.

There is a reason it was called the krushchev thaw, and Brezhnev ended the liberal reforms. Most of the truth did not come out until the 80s or until the collapse.

Flamming_Python

01-25-2010, 07:57 PM

Denouced in private, later retracted.

There is a reason it was called the krushchev thaw, and Brezhnev ended the liberal reforms. Most of the truth did not come out until the 80s or until the collapse.

It marked the beggining of de-stalinisation campaign, and the changes soon began to mount up. Masses of political prisoners were released and rehabilitated, the role of forced/prisoner labour was greatly reduced, deported populations were repatriated, censorship of written material and arts were relaxed, many of Stalin's policies were reversed, Stalin's body was removed from the Mausoleum, Stalin's statues were torn down, cities with 'Stalin' in the name (Stalingrad, Stalinabad, etc...) were renamed, foreign policy was revised in favour of 'peacfull coexistance with the West', economic reforms of land and industry were instated, etc... It went so far that it even negatively affected USSR-China relations and contributed to a split in the communist world.

You're right that a lot of documents, etc... were declassified in the 80's but the actual changes started in the 50's and accelerated until Stalin-bashing reached its peak in the 60's. Certainly information about the purges, etc... became widespread, prisoners returning from the Gulag talked about their experiences, etc... The actual congress may have been private, but the subsequent dismantling of the cult of Stalin wasn't. Soviet citizens soon learned of the the state's new view towards Stalin. It also wasn't 'later retracted', not by Brezhnev and not by anyone. Or did suddenly all those deported peoples go straight back into their prison camps, Stalin's body was brought back to the mausoleum, etc...? Some liberal and economic reforms were retracted or changed... and that was about it.

Switek

01-26-2010, 02:31 AM

I have been trying to keep away from this thread. But can't resist any longer. The sad thing is that as usual Poland - Russia relation discussion are going to the same point and all the same arguments are being used to the death. It goes to nowhere.

I'd go to the merit:

Russia to facilitate Polish commemorations of Katyn massacre At the beginning I thought that is just cosmetic change of Russian policy toward Poland and Poles. Even if so, it's important and should be appreciated.

Only blind rednecks, when it comes to simple people and politicians from both Polish and Russian side see Katyn Massacre as a thing which divides our nations. In fact it unites us more than it might seem. It just need time when Russians accept the fact that were enslaved and oppressed by communist regime and were subject of selective extermination like other nations living in USSR.

I hope that I will see the day when Katyn Massacre commemorations will be Russian-Polish day of reconciliation and holiday of friendship.

Current Russia isn't responsible for USSR crimes but as legal successor is responsible to for clarification and closure of this matter, together with Poland. Poles do not expect kneeing Russia begging for apology. We expect only the truth. Naked truth, whatever it is and expressing historic accuracy over this event. I was believing that it was genocide, crime against humanity for the long time. Seems that Katyn massacre qualifies for war crime but it's not the most important matter.

You Russians must understand our sensitivity over this tragic event of our history. Many of us understand that for you was one, not the biggest and important, communist crime made by Bolsheviks.

CaptMorgan68

01-26-2010, 02:35 AM

I have been trying to keep away from this thread. But can't resist any longer. The sad thing is that as usual Poland - Russia relation discussion are going to the same point and all the same arguments are being used to the death. It goes to nowhere.

I'd go to the merit:

At the beginning I thought that is just cosmetic change of Russian policy toward Poland and Poles. Even if so, it's important and should be appreciated.

Only blind rednecks, when it comes to simple people and politicians from both Polish and Russian side see Katyn Massacre as a thing which divides our nations. In fact it unites us more than it might seem. It just need time when Russians accept the fact that were enslaved and oppressed by communist regime and were subject of selective extermination like other nations ling in USSR.

I hope that I will see the day when Katyn Massacre commemorations will be Russian-Polish day of reconciliation and holiday of friendship.

Current Russia isn't responsible for USSR crimes but as legal successor is responsible to for clarification and closure of this matter, together with Poland. Poles do not expect kneeing Russia begging for apology. We expect only the truth. Naked truth, whatever it is and expressing historic accuracy over this event. I was believing that it was genocide, crime against humanity for the long time. Seems that Katyn massacre qualifies for war crime but it's not the most important matter.

You Russians must understand our sensitivity over this tragic event of our history. Many of us understand that for you was one, not the biggest and important, communist crime made by Bolsheviks.

x2......................QFT

I also sincerely hope this is not a merely cosmetic adjustment in Russian foreign policy.

Switek

01-26-2010, 03:20 AM

x2......................QFT

I also sincerely hope this is not a merely cosmetic adjustment in Russian foreign policy.

Me too. Considering both Polish and Russian attitude presented in last years, cooperation strategy, even if is uncomfortable sometimes, is much better than whose ***** is bigger contest. ;)

shadowsrider

01-26-2010, 04:38 AM

What in heavens are you talking about?
Seems like another expression of arrogance towards Russian nation; "don't worry guys, you may be several decades behind us, but you'll get there eventually!"

Wow!
I have no idea where you have read this in my text!

Mango Madness

01-26-2010, 05:42 AM

It just need time when Russians accept the fact that were enslaved and oppressed by communist regime and were subject of selective extermination like other nations living in USSR.

You Poles and others tend to lump the whole USSR period of existence/communism in general with the Stalin era, when the reality is that after Stalin's death in 1953 till its end the USSR had no real oppression (nothing like in the Stalin era) and was a very ordinary place to live.

Switek

01-26-2010, 05:52 AM

You Poles and others tend to lump the whole USSR period of existence/communism in general with the Stalin era

Look at the thread title...

..... the reality is that after Stalin's death in 1953 till its end the USSR had no real oppression and was a very ordinary place to live.

May be because we Poles an others have another definition about what oppression is?

BTW. Have you lived in USSR?

shadowsrider

01-26-2010, 09:26 AM

till its end the USSR had no real oppression (nothing like in the Stalin era) and was a very ordinary place to live.

You could publish any book, organize demonstration if you did not like something, choose from variety of cars, refridgerators and washing mashines, buy designer clothes and you could live in a house or fancy appartment.

Flamming_Python

01-26-2010, 10:22 AM

Good post Switek! Only as Mango said, USSR didn't begin and end with Stalin; for many Russians it's actually a memory of happier times than now.

You could publish any book, organize demonstration if you did not like something,

You're right

choose from variety of cars, refridgerators and washing mashines, buy designer clothes and you could live in a house or fancy appartment.

Most people in Poland and Russia don't have such an oppurtunity even today.

Switek

01-26-2010, 10:47 AM

Most people in Poland and Russia don't have such an oppurtunity even today.

In 1989 western second hand cars were expensive as hell - took few years saving. Today you can buy 12-15 years old good shape car for few thousand zlotys (from two to five months saving or quick credit) what means that even poor people can afford to buy them.

Can't speak for Russia but in Poland if people do not use their civil rights it's by their choice. I would say that that there's similar discouragement attitude but represented in much lower rate than in Russia, but as for public money which people can get Poles are masters of the universe in taking allowances and grants from local authorities and European institutions.

Flamming_Python

01-26-2010, 10:52 AM

In 1989 western second hand cars were expensive as hell - took few years saving. Today you can buy 12-15 years old good shape car for few thousand zlotys (from two to five months saving or quick credit) what means that even poor people can afford to buy them.

Can't speak for Russia but in Poland if people do not use their civil rights it's by their choice. I would say that that there's similar discouragement attitude but represented in much lower rate than in Russia, but as for public money which people can get Poles are masters of the universe in taking allowances and grants from local authorities and European institutions.

No Switek people in Poland and Russia have very similar mentalities. You should visit Russia; there are quite a lot of protests by workers, supporters of opposition political parties, etc... but always when there is something to actually be unhappy about (and there always is), not just for the sake of 'expressing civil rights'.

I live in England, and I hardly see anyone protesting hardly ever. People are cynical about politics, are too busy with their lives in order to go protest despite what they're unhappy with, and in general there is no political dynamism whatsoever. I think it's like this across the world.

Switek

01-26-2010, 11:03 AM

People in Poland, profess the new faith: the rite of materialistic consumerism spending Sundays in the cathedrals of consumerism: the great malls. In any case, most ;) As for their political choices, in majority are very rational and care about their interests...

In working days many work for more than 10 hours to earn money for Sundays confessions and credits to pay. The rate of mental disorders and consumption of drugs increases... Family life disappears etc..

Flamming_Python

02-02-2010, 05:49 PM

According to the definition I offered (and the currently accepted one), it stands as genocide.

GTFOutta here Lokos, if you think you can bully me with your reputation on mp.net you got another thing coming p-)

Katyn wasn't a genocide. Definition or not, we should recognize two facts. Firstly, that the vast majority of people on Earth familiar with the term 'genocide' would define it as something akin to the attempted extermination or at the very least large scale massacre of a specific ethnic/racial group - when people hear the term, the sort of thing they would have in mind would be the Armenian genocide, Holocaust or Rwanda 1994. An attempt to name Katyn as 'genocide', is in fact an attempt to imprint this massacre among these 'greats' of the 20th century - but I just don't think that it qualifies in either scale or design.

Secoundly, like I said earlier, if we are to classify Katyn as a genocide; we would also have to qualify as such a hundred other events in the 20th century. A great many people perished in Stalin's class war from all USSR nations. The peoples were targetted on the basis of their occupation and position in society rather than ethnicity - yet if we accept that a massacre against Polish officers specifically is a genocide against Poles, then what would we say about Stalin's rounding up of the Kulaks or war against Russian, Ukrainian, Central Asian, etc... intelligencias, clergy and bourgouise that happened on a far larger scale? We would also have to qualify all of Mao's actions, and that of plenty of other dictators.

This is a very fuzzy mode of reasoning. A genocide does not always have to have an ethnic component. Even in the case of the Holocaust, that should be quite apparent. After all, Judaism is first and foremost a religion, is it not? Or what of the Khmer Rouge? Was that not a genocide, on account of the targets often being as simple as 'people wearing glasses, who therefore must be inteligentzia, and therefore must be a danger to the state'?

Remember: ... 'in whole, or in part...'

Judaism as defined by the Nazis was purely an ethnic identity, defined by bloodline - whereby the fate of the person in question was determined purely by what proportion of Jewish ancestors he/she had to non-Jewish ancestors. Religion was irrelevant. The part of Jewish religion that itself deals directly with this question states that a person is only Jewish if their mother is Jewish. Again that was irrelevant for the Nazis. If you were a German who adopted Judaism you wouldn't be touched, and likewise if you were a Jew by birth who adopted Christianity, or else didn't regard yourself as a Jew in any sence, you would still suffer the same fate as all the others.

As for the Khmer Rogue - I think we can make an exception. Their actions probably did contribute a great deal towards destroying the genepool of their own people - whether they intended to do so or not.

Lokos

02-02-2010, 08:17 PM

Katyn wasn't a genocide.

Well, I'm not making a value judgment when I say that it was a genocide. I'm simply applying the accepted definition of that term.

Firstly, that the vast majority of people on Earth familiar with the term 'genocide' would define it as something akin to the attempted extermination or at the very least large scale massacre of a specific ethnic/racial group - when people hear the term, the sort of thing they would have in mind would be the Armenian genocide, Holocaust or Rwanda 1994.

Yet, the term was applied to Srebrenica (the execution of thousands of military age Muslim men during the Bosnian War) without undue fuss. I hate to overemphasize, but... 'in whole, or in part...'

we would also have to qualify as such a hundred other events in the 20th century.

Absolutely.

Judaism as defined by the Nazis was purely an ethnic identity, defined by bloodline

And I can call Christianity a 'bloodline', traceable in genealogy. It wouldn't make it so, would it?

Religion was irrelevant.

Respectfully, it was the only relevant factor. Be it the individual's religion, or the religion of the individual's ancestors. It was used as an identity marker by both the Jews and the Nazis, to the extreme detriment of the former. Though this begs questions of our definitions of ethno-genesis, I hope we are not at the stage where 'Judaism' is seen as a term factually denoting genealogical heritage, regardless of the views of the Nazis? What, exactly, denotes the Jewish people, their self-identity aside? Swarthy features? A long, crooked nose? This is Nazi propaganda - liberally applied during the Holocaust, and their occupation of Eastern Europe ('slit eyed Mongol' should ring a bell). How can one possibly apply that criterion?

How do the Jews themselves define their identity? Is one not 'Jewish' when he converts to Judaism? What about the Eritrean Jews?

If you were a German who adopted Judaism you wouldn't be touched

That's not a statement I'm prepared to accept at face value.

As for the Khmer Rogue - I think we can make an exception. Their actions probably did contribute a great deal towards destroying the genepool of their own people - whether they intended to do so or not.

Where is the line drawn, exactly? Twenty thousand Poles killed because of their occupation or circumstance - how does that substantively differ from the Cambodians killed by the Khmer Rouge due to the same? What's the concrete benchmark? If we can make an exception for the KR, then surely we can admit that Katyn was a genocidal act (would you prefer it if we differentiated between genocide and genocidal acts?) - as an attempt to destroy the Polish people in part (their intelligentzia, in this case).

then what would we say about Stalin's rounding up of the Kulaks or war against Russian, Ukrainian, Central Asian, etc... intelligencias, clergy and bourgouise that happened on a far larger scale?

Indeed, what would we say?

L.

Mango Madness

02-02-2010, 09:09 PM

The Katyn massacre was perpetrated by Soviet authorities - there's not much ambiguity there, whatsoever. And it certainly constitutes a war-crime. It also constitutes genocide, according to the applicable definition.

Observe:

Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
L.

If the definition fit so easily it would be widely acknowledged as genocide. The reason it's not widely considered genocide (very few things are) is because they were killed because they of their profession (Polish military officers) rather than "national, ethnical racial or religious" qualities. This is evidenced by the fact that the rest of the Polish population was left alone and in fact grew hugely, from 22 million to 38 million, during the communist period.

Lokos

02-03-2010, 05:23 AM

The reason it's not widely considered genocide (very few things are) is because they were killed because they of their profession (Polish military officers) rather than "national, ethnical racial or religious" qualities.

I really don't want to quote myself a third time. 'In part' covers this objection - the part in question being Poland's intelligentzia/leadership/officer corps. I know it's a flimsy definition, but it's what they're using. As I said, if this doesn't qualify, then neither did many of the actions of the Khmer Rouge - and most would have no problem calling that regime genocidal. Nor would Srebrenica, even though that is most often considered a very clear case of genocide.

If you prefer, however, you can always frame the massacre as a 'genocidal act' or a crime against humanity, if that strikes you as a more positive characterization.

L.

MZKT

02-03-2010, 02:47 PM

I really don't want to quote myself a third time. 'In part' covers this objection - the part in question being Poland's intelligentzia/leadership/officer corps. I know it's a flimsy definition, but it's what they're using. As I said, if this doesn't qualify, then neither did many of the actions of the Khmer Rouge - and most would have no problem calling that regime genocidal. Nor would Srebrenica, even though that is most often considered a very clear case of genocide.

If you prefer, however, you can always frame the massacre as a 'genocidal act' or a crime against humanity, if that strikes you as a more positive characterization.

L.

Which event involving people intentionally killed is not a genocide by such definition? Or should this term be retrofitted to every condlict in the history of mankiind (and to all present conflicts)?

Wojtop

02-03-2010, 04:09 PM

If the definition fit so easily it would be widely acknowledged as genocide. The reason it's not widely considered genocide (very few things are) is because they were killed because they of their profession (Polish military officers) rather than "national, ethnical racial or religious" qualities. This is evidenced by the fact that the rest of the Polish population was left alone and in fact grew hugely, from 22 million to 38 million, during the communist period.

Well, going into details most part of them were actually RESERVE officers. In their regular life they were teachers, doctors, engineers, lawyers, beaurocrats etc etc.

And about wording - why is it so important to you? Twenty odd thousands of well educated Polish officers have been murdered cold blooded by Soviet Union leaders. What's the difference if we call it a genocide or a mass murder? Is a mass murder any better than genocide?

Kilgor

02-03-2010, 05:03 PM

Genocide is not limited strictly to race, stop trying to use that escape clause.

Tank34

02-03-2010, 05:21 PM

Genocide is not limited strictly to race, stop trying to use that escape clause.
Really?
United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"

They were killed because they were enemy millitary officers. Not because national, ethical, racial or religious.

tommy00

02-03-2010, 05:32 PM

They were killed because they were enemy millitary officers. Not because national, ethical, racial or religious.

Enemy...???
Poland was occupied by Germany and Soviets were in war with Germany.......So, how could they be enemy officers...???

Tank34

02-03-2010, 05:45 PM

Enemy...???
Poland was occupied by Germany and Soviets were in war with Germany.......So, how could they be enemy officers...???
Soviets were in war with Germany only after 22 june 1941.

Enemy. We were at war with Poland only 20 years earlier. And main objective of Soviet intevention in Poland(this cannot be even called a war because USSR cross border after retreat of polish goverment from Poland) was to return our own land actually. And during that intervention were was some combat clashes with Polish troops(my grandfather took part in Russo-Finish War, intervention in Poland and The Great Patriotic war). And even murders of pro soviets civils by polaks. But this is was very short operation.

Of course war between USSR and Germany was unavoidable after Munich, but we would prefer as much as possible time for preparation.

Kilgor

02-03-2010, 05:51 PM

Following your twisted logic, Hitler's commisssar Order was a valid one.

"extermination of a national group, whole or in part"

tommy00

02-03-2010, 06:00 PM

rafus

02-03-2010, 06:07 PM

Soviets were in war with Germany only after 22 june 1941.

Enemy. We were at war with Poland only 20 years earlier. And main objective of Soviet intevention in Poland(this cannot be even called a war because USSR cross border after retreat of polish goverment from Poland) was to return our own land actually. And during that intervention were was some combat clashes with Polish troops(my grandfather took part in Russo-Finish War, intervention in Poland and The Great Patriotic war). And even murders of pro soviets civils by polaks. But this is was very short operation.

Of course war between USSR and Germany was unavoidable after Munich, but we would prefer as much as possible time for preparation.

Let me explain that Russia started that war (1919-1920). And before that, it had occupied much of the Polish territory (inlcuding the capital city of Warsaw) for more than a century as a result of the infamous partitions of Poland. Then in 1939 it made a deal with Hitler and conquered half of Poland, all Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Moldavia etc.

Tank34

02-03-2010, 06:11 PM

I like you and your logic, really...:)
"It was not a war, we go there only to return our own land...."
You feel free to use it more often....
It was not a war because Polish goverment already run from the Poland when USSR cross the border. Ressistance was small or even null. So it is hardly can be called a war.

BTW, when was East-Poland Soviets land earlier.....so they could return it...???
They can try.

Tank34

02-03-2010, 06:19 PM

Let me explain that Russia started that war (1919-1920). And before that, it had occupied much of the Polish territory (inlcuding the capital city of Warsaw) for more than a century as a result of the infamous partitions of Poland.
There was civil war. In which emerge Poland. And how exactly started be more precise pls?

Wojtop

02-03-2010, 06:26 PM

rafus

02-03-2010, 06:30 PM

Another piece of nonsense and ignorance from Tank34. Poland did not emerge as a result of your Russian red-white civil war. We (and some other countries) just took opportunity of the fact that all three of our aggressors and occupants(Russia, Germany and Austria) fell to pieces at the end of World War One

Tank34

02-03-2010, 06:43 PM

tank34, your statement about Polish govt being evacuated when Soviets intervened is not true, it's a falsification of history by Soviet historicians.
Polish Government was still in Poland on 17th of september, it was just moved into a safe place near Romanian border. AFTER the Soviets entered Poland in the morning of 17th september and AFTER it became obvious that they enter with the purpose of occupation not to help against Nazis, in the evening of the 17th the government was evacuated to Romania and later Paris.
Soviets were sure that Polish goverment leave Warshava and run and then they receive such information they cross borders. No goverment=no country.
USSR just wait for opportunity to intervention.

Another piece of nonsense and ignorance from Tank34. Poland did not emerge as a result of your Russian red-white civil war. We (and some other countries) just took opportunity of the fact that all three of our aggressors and occupants(Russia, Germany and Austria) fell to pieces at the end of World War One

For more that a century were was no such country as Poland. So emerge is valid termin.

Wojtop

02-03-2010, 07:09 PM

So you say that Soviets entered Poland when the govt left Warsaw. The Polish government left Warsaw on the 7th of September and worked in safe Kolomyia area near Romanian border for next 10 days, commanding troops, coordinating civilian efforts and negotiating with allies. Soviets knew about it as it was no secret, Polish diplomats in Moscow had normal contact with the government.

As a matter of fact negotiations about evacuation with Romanian authorities STARTED after the Soviet invasion on the 17th of September, so obviously the govt had no intention to leave the country prior to Soviet invasion. The reason why they left in hurry was that Soviet tanks approached the city where they were located and there were no anti tank troops to stop them as all availabe units were commited against Germans.

I guess Soviet/Russian history books simply lied to you about it.

Mango Madness

02-03-2010, 07:40 PM

I really don't want to quote myself a third time. 'In part' covers this objection - the part in question being Poland's intelligentzia/leadership/officer corps. I know it's a flimsy definition, but it's what they're using. As I said, if this doesn't qualify, then neither did many of the actions of the Khmer Rouge - and most would have no problem calling that regime genocidal. Nor would Srebrenica, even though that is most often considered a very clear case of genocide.

If you prefer, however, you can always frame the massacre as a 'genocidal act' or a crime against humanity, if that strikes you as a more positive characterization.

L.

Yes, my reply was directed specifically towards your "in part" argument. They weren't killed simply because of they were a national, ethnical, racial or religious group but because they were Polish military corps/leadership/intelligentzia. Their intent was to destroy a social class rather than their race (as the Soviets had done towards many, many nationalities including Russians), and the genocide definition doesn't include "social class".

Mango Madness

02-03-2010, 07:44 PM

Well, going into details most part of them were actually RESERVE officers. In their regular life they were teachers, doctors, engineers, lawyers, beaurocrats etc etc.

And about wording - why is it so important to you? Twenty odd thousands of well educated Polish officers have been murdered cold blooded by Soviet Union leaders. What's the difference if we call it a genocide or a mass murder? Is a mass murder any better than genocide?

The Polish government seems to be very much concerned with calling it genocide, same as the Ukrainian government wants Holodomor recognised as genocide and Armenia the Armenian genocide.

Lokos

02-03-2010, 09:44 PM

Yes, my reply was directed specifically towards your "in part" argument.

This is becoming circular. I would retort with the exact same answer I gave the last time.

Which event involving people intentionally killed is not a genocide by such definition? Or should this term be retrofitted to every condlict in the history of mankiind (and to all present conflicts)?

Again (and for the last time), I do not disagree that the definition is flimsy, at best. And I do not disagree that its application is invariably tainted with political bias. However, it's the definition that is being used. To me, the Katyn Massacre represents a genocidal act. If you do not agree, that is your prerogative. In which case, feel free to label it, as I stated previously, a 'genocidal act' or a crime against humanity. Or simply a crime. An evil deed. Whatever terminology best achieves the watering down effect you're looking for.

I really did not approach this topic with the intention of redefining genocide for the world at large.

L.

mrxyz

02-03-2010, 10:58 PM

Beside the genocide or not debate, is there any disagreement here?

It seems that most people agree that this facilitation by Russia is a good thing. Does the label really matter that much? Genocide or not, it was quite a deplorable and f*cked up event that should not be forgotten, but neither should it hamper the development of better relations between Russia and Poland. I think the best way to continue is to be pragmatic and look towards the future rather than bicker about old grievances. The perpetrators are dead, and the entire regime is too. Is some kind of cosmic justice more important than creating positive relations in the present? It's high time to bury the hatchet.

TakeIt

02-04-2010, 08:32 AM

The Polish government left Warsaw on the 7th of September and worked in safe Kolomyia area near Romanian border for next 10 days That is incorrect. President left Warszaw on 1 September, followed by government on 5 September, and during the night 6/7 September Rydz-Smigly followed suit. To Kolomiya government arrived only on 15 September, previosly briefly stationing in Brest(7 September), Volodymyr-Volinskiy(10 September), Mlynov(13 September). On 17 September president was located in Kosov, just 50km from Romanian border.
Soviets knew about it as it was no secret, Polish diplomats in Moscow had normal contact with the governmentThat contradicts Grzybowski, when he stated on 17 September during infamous note deal that he doesn't have regular contact with the government and on 15 September it was suggested to contact it through Bucharest, he was uncertain even in this route.
As a matter of fact negotiations about evacuation with Romanian authorities STARTED after the Soviet invasion on the 17th of SeptemberAccording to M.Stanevicz negotiations with Romania about transit started on 16 September.
so obviously the govt had no intention to leave the country prior to Soviet invasion. Decision to flee the country and became interned, leading to inability to function as a government body, is not something done in a matter of hours, not to mention necessity to prepare documentation to be brought along or destroyed. Soviet troops crossed polish border after 5am 17 September, polish government crossed romanian border close to 7pm. Rydz-Smygly was able to produce reaction to Soviet intervention("Sowiety wkroczyly") only late evening on 17 September on the way to Romania(in Kuty, some 10km from Kosov). The fact that government and staff of chief headquoters in full fled the country first, leaving behind army and people, speaks for itself.
The reason why they left in hurry was that Soviet tanks approached the city where they were located and there were no anti tank troops to stop them as all availabe units were commited against Germans. Soviet tanks were never close to Kosov or Kolomiya at that time. 23rd tank brigade entered Kolomiya on 18 September and disarmed ~10k polish soldiers. In any case the move is good. And even better, that it came from Russia.

Wojtop

02-04-2010, 10:03 AM

OK, let me do some google-fu as well for the sake of argument. But none of your facts deny the basic message - that Soviet propaganda lied about the circumstances of intervention.

1. Complete evacuation of the govt was finished on the 7th of september. You are right, they were not transferred to Kolomyia directly.
2. He was still able to contact the government despite of the note being delivered in the middle of the night.
3. You probably mean the Polish Chief of Staff mr. Stachiewicz? He claimed that the negotiations started on the 17th. The 16th in the evening everyone was optimistic and eagerly waiting for the French offensive.
4. Memoirs are pretty clear - there were reports of Soviet tanks approaching Kolomyia. These were not confirmed and probably false. Yet there was little choice. Even if the real attack came a day later all forces were in defensive positions against Germans and attack from the back was impossible to repulse. The government would fall in Soviet hands and likely share the fate of Katyn officers.
5. AFAIK Russia did not exist at that time as a country so I have no idea what are you talking about.

Hollis

02-04-2010, 10:13 AM

TakeIt

02-04-2010, 12:26 PM

Soviet propaganda lied about the circumstances of intervention.This is simply too general, to be taken seriously.
2. He was still able to contact the government despite of the note being delivered in the middle of the night.Yes, however it doesn't contradict his words.
You probably mean the Polish Chief of Staff mr. Stachiewicz? No, Marian Staniewicz. Britain probed Romania on the topic of polish troops also on 16 September.
4. Memoirs are pretty clear Memoirs are just that - memoirs.
These were not confirmed and probably false. Fear has big eyes, indeed.
The government would fall in Soviet hands and likely share the fate of Katyn officers.Anders as well as many others survived, despite being clearly anti-soviet. And live legal government is clearly more usefull alive, than dead.
I have no idea what are you talking about.Did you read the topic title?

peter.pl

02-04-2010, 05:01 PM

Tank34
1. Pact between Russia and Germany before war said that SOVIET UNION WILL INVADE POLAND AT SEPTEMBER, you couldn't know about place of gov before war... (Ribbentrop-Molotov)
2. How the fvck Lublin, Zamość, Chełm is exRussian territory ?
3. Gov was moved finnaly to Romania because SOVIET ATTACKED POLAND
4. How you thing that gov wich is not in country is unlegal ? SU made such gov's for almost all later occupated countries.
5. Why situation when Army of other country is entering into country wich borders lines WERE LEGAL and is KILLING SOLDIERS AND CIVILLIANS OF THAT COUNTRY is not called as war ?

They were killed because they were enemy millitary officers. Not because national, ethical, racial or religious.
They weren't enemies, they were prisoners of war. If you don't see difference go back to primary school. Killing 20 000 POWs is not part of every war, don't you think so ?

daily666

02-04-2010, 05:39 PM

You guys are waaaaay off topic.

C'mon, we're friends again! We have a half century long gas deal, Putin was in Poland, now Tusk goes to Russia.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?68352-Russian-Polish-Love-Thread

Tank34

02-05-2010, 09:47 AM

Tank34
1. Pact between Russia and Germany before war said that SOVIET UNION WILL INVADE POLAND AT SEPTEMBER, you couldn't know about place of gov before war... (Ribbentrop-Molotov)

USSR did not need another excalation with France and Germany so they use opportunity then Poland become doomed. What they said mean nothing actually. It is politic just like the Poland take Chech territiry then they have opportunity nothing different.

2. How the fvck Lublin, Zamość, Chełm is exRussian territory ?

The same as West Belorussia Polish.

3. Gov was moved finnaly to Romania because SOVIET ATTACKED POLAND

They cross border on 17 september as you comrades say, hope you know better about you goverment than i. So they were ready to depart already. Soviets were sure than Poland goverment already run(of course it is maybe just propaganda in army ranks but still they have ground for such claims)

4. How you thing that gov wich is not in country is unlegal ? SU made such gov's for almost all later occupated countries.

Goverment without country mean nothing.

5. Why situation when Army of other country is entering into country wich borders lines WERE LEGAL and is KILLING SOLDIERS AND CIVILLIANS OF THAT COUNTRY is not called as war ?

Because it is too smal to be a real war. No goverment, almost no retaliation.

They weren't enemies
Really? Poland always was and always would be enemy of Russian it is history and geography of our contries. Just look at modern situation.

Eye

02-05-2010, 10:14 AM

Poland always was and always would be enemy of Russian it is history and geography of our contries. Just look at modern situation.
Can you explain why do you think so.
Do you consider any close neighbour of Russia, which has some policy independent from Russia, as a friendly?

Tank34

02-05-2010, 10:35 AM

Can you explain why do you think so.

While Poland independent it has and would have strong anti russian policy. They have morale ground for such position.
But enemy is the enemy no matter why. I have my personal reasons to do not like Poland. It is just history of my family now, but still Poland not always was victim.

Do you consider any close neighbour of Russia, which has some policy independent from Russia, as a friendly?
If you mean true independent then China. But how long it would be friendly is another question. But our resources and China industry create strong ground for cooperation.

peter.pl

02-05-2010, 01:57 PM

What they said mean nothing actually. It is politic just like the Poland take Chech territiry then they have opportunity nothing different.
Zaolzie was not that same man, we were fighting for that region for centuries.

The same as West Belorussia Polish.
No man, Belorussia were never free so that is strange to talk about such country...
And you said that you were taking back what was yours so I asked about Lublin etc. You took it and it was never yours, it was just occupation of territory of other country.

So they were ready to depart already. Soviets were sure than Poland goverment already run
Like talking with wall...
Of course they were ready for that, that is normal when you are loosing war ! And soviets knew that they will attack at 17th September before war, they couldn't know about gov. It wasn't invasion caused by gov moving to Romania but gov moving to Romania caused by soviet invasion.

Goverment without country mean nothing.
Country was still egsisting. Poland had never surrended to Germany and last unit of Polish Army was fighting to spring of 1940. Underground Army was commanded by gov wich was placed in Great Britain.

Because it is too smal to be a real war. No goverment, almost no retaliation.
If it is too small I don't want to see 'normal' size, all Europe ?
http://www.se.pl/media/pics/2009/09/17/17_wrzesnia_1939_mapa_1_copy_460x370.jpg
Your statment makes me think that you think Soviet Russia was not talking with Germany about invasion. They just saw situation and said 'Oh look, Poland is attacked by Germany, maybe we should take East Poland to give freedom and justice to people living there' ?

Poland always was and always would be enemy of Russian it is history and geography of our contries.
So better I will go check my AK, maybe you will come to me tommorow my enemy :)