American Soldiers with AK rifles

[Dennis G]

A repeat of an older post of mine.

US Troops with Ak's

New

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d930b3127cceb1a3f53d30c00000001610

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d930b3127cceb1a3f52730da0000001610

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d930b3127cceb1a3f524b1e90000002610

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d930b3127cceb1a3f516b1db0000001610

old

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/USMC_EOD_in_Iraq/aaa.jpg

http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/7349/7349614.jpg

[Midav]

Cool pics, actually!

[memphiz]

Wow cool Dennis
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d930b3127cceb1a3f52730da0000001610
Is there a story behind this? Like why he has both weapons out?

[Dennis G]

Maybe the Ak ran out of ammo, or the tangos are real close. I dont know.

Please post more pics, I just cant find any more.

[ohadbx]

Marines with AKs?!
I thought only the black-ops guys use enemy weapons so they could get ammo behind enemy lines.
Didnt know that regular units use it as well. Whats the reason behind it?

[Sayeret]

I've recently seen a bunch of PMCs with AK-47s but it seems like they can carry any weapon that they are able to obtain.

[Dennis G]

Marines with AKs?!
I thought only the black-ops guys use enemy weapons so they could get ammo behind enemy lines.
Didnt know that regular units use it as well. Whats the reason behind it?

I think it's more of a victory pose. Personally I would take the Ak over the M16(AR-15) anyday




Here is some good reading


U.S. Troops Use Confiscated Iraqi AK-47s

ANDREW ENGLAND

Associated Press


BAQOUBA, Iraq - An American soldier stands at the side of an Iraqi highway, puts his AK-47 on fully automatic and pulls the trigger.

Within seconds the assault rifle has blasted out 30 rounds. Puffs of dust dance in the air as the bullets smack into the scrubland dirt. Test fire complete.

U.S. troops in Iraq may not have found weapons of mass destruction, but they're certainly getting their hands on the country's stock of Kalashnikovs - and, they say, they need them.

The soldiers based around Baqouba are from an armor battalion, which means they have tanks, Humvees and armored personnel carriers. But they are short on rifles.

A four-man tank crew is issued two M4 assault rifles and four 9mm pistols, relying mostly on the tank's firepower for protection.

But now they are engaged in guerrilla warfare, patrolling narrow roads and goat trails where tanks are less effective. Troops often find themselves dismounting to patrol in smaller vehicles, making rifles essential.

"We just do not have enough rifles to equip all of our soldiers. So in certain circumstances we allow soldiers to have an AK-47. They have to demonstrate some proficiency with the weapon ... demonstrate an ability to use it," said Lt. Col. Mark Young, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 4th Infantry Division.

"Normally an armor battalion is fighting from its tanks. Well, we are not fighting from our tanks right now," Young said. "We are certainly capable of performing the missions that we have been assigned, there's no issue with that, but we do find ourselves somewhat challenged."

In Humvees, on tanks - but never openly on base - U.S. soldiers are carrying the Cold War-era weapon, first developed in the Soviet Union but now mass produced around the world.

The AK is favored by many of the world's fighters, from child soldiers in Africa to rebel movements around the world, because it is light, durable and known to jam less frequently.

Now U.S. troops who have picked up AKs on raids or confiscated them at checkpoints are putting the rifles to use - and they like what they see.

Some complain that standard U.S. military M16 and M4 rifles jam too easily in Iraq's dusty environment. Many say the AK has better "knockdown" power and can kill with fewer shots.

"The kind of war we are in now ... you want to be able to stop the enemy quick," said Sgt. 1st Class Tracy S. McCarson of Newport News, Va., an army scout, who carries an AK in his Humvee.

Some troops say the AK is easier to maintain and a better close-quarters weapon. Also, it has "some psychological affect on the enemy when you fire back on them with their own weapons," McCarson said.

Most U.S. soldiers agree the M16 and the M4 - a newer, shorter version of the M16 that has been used by American troops since the 1960s - is better for long distance, precision shooting.

But around Baqouba, troops are finding themselves attacked by assailants hidden deep in date palm groves. Or they are raiding houses, taking on enemies at close-quarters.

Two weeks ago, Sgt. Sam Bailey of Cedar Falls, Iowa, was in a Humvee when a patrol came under rocket-propelled grenade and heavy machine gun fire. It was dark, the road narrow. On one side, there was a mud wall and palms trees, on the other a canal surrounded by tall grass.

Bailey, who couldn't see who was firing, had an AK-47 on his lap and his M4 up front. The choice was simple.

"I put the AK on auto and started spraying," Bailey said.

Some soldiers also say it's easier to get ammo for the AK - they can pick it up on any raid or from any confiscated weapon.

"It's plentiful," said Sgt. Eric Harmon, a tanker who has a full 75-round drum, five 30-round magazines, plus 200-300 rounds in boxes for his AK. He has about 120 rounds for his M16.

Young doesn't carry an AK but has fired one. He's considered banning his troops from carrying AKs, but hasn't yet because "if I take the AK away from some of the soldiers, then they will not have a rifle to carry with them."

Staff Sgt. Michael Perez, a tanker, said he would take anything over his standard issue 9mm pistol when he's out of his tank.

And the AK's durability has impressed him.

"They say you can probably drop this in the water and leave it overnight, pull it out in the morning, put in a magazine and it will work," Perez said.



Army, Marines rate weapon success (M16A2/A4; M4; M9)
Stars and Stripes, European Edition ^ | Sunday, July 13, 2003 | Mark Oliva


Posted on 07/14/2003 1:31:45 AM PDT by xzins


U.S. forces rolled over the Iraqi military in just weeks.

The plans seemed flawless, and the courage of the soldiers and Marines unflappable.

But with the dust settling — and the adrenaline rush of battle now subsiding — military officials are finding some weapons performed as advertised. Others, however, let troops down when they needed them most.

Army and Marine officials recently released after-action reports compiling what was right and what was wrong about the small arms with which troops squared off against Iraqi forces. Soldiers and Marines rated the rifles and pistols they carried into battle, and not all got perfect scores.

Soldiers and Marines relied on variants of the M-16 rifle. The M-16, in service since the early days of the Vietnam War, was highly criticized then as unreliable, often jamming during firefights. Soldiers who participated in Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan also complained the M-4 variant, a shorter version of the M-16, lacked what they needed in combat.

In Iraq, reviews were mixed.

Most soldiers carried the M-4 into battle in Iraq and “were very satisfied with this weapon,” according a report from the Army’s Special Operations Battle Lab. “It performed well in a demanding environment, especially given the rail system and accompanying sensors and optics.”

Marines carried the older and larger M-16A2 rifles, but a report from the Marine Corps Systems Command Liaison Team stated: “Many Marines commented on desire for the shorter weapon vice the longer M-16s.”

One Marine told the team that the shorter rifle would have been better in confined urban battle. Some also said the smaller rifle would have been easier to handle when climbing in and out of trucks and armored vehicles.

“Several Marines even opted to use the AK-47s that had been captured from Iraqi weapons caches,” the Marine report stated. “Others were trading rifles for pistols to go into buildings to allow for mobility in confined spaces.”

Marine Corps officials announced late last year that infantry forces would soon switch from the M-16A2 to the M-16A4, a heavier-barreled version of the long rifle with a rail system like the M-4. Stocks of the weapons, however, arrived in Kuwait too late to be fielded and sighted for battle. Most stayed in storage, but some weapons were delivered to Marines under a plan to initially field one per squad.

A number of M-16A4 rifles, fitted with a 4X scope, were given to Marine rifleman. The combination, Marines said, allowed them to “identify targets at a distance, under poor conditions, and maintained ability to quickly acquire the target in close-in environment[s].”

But not all soldiers and Marines were enamored with the performance of their rifles. Complaints centered on lack of range and reliability problems.

“The most significant negative comment was reference [to] the M-4’s range,” the Army report stated. “In the desert, there were times where soldiers needed to assault a building that may be 500+ meters distant across open terrain. They did not feel the M-4 provided effective fire at that range.”

Safety was another concern. The M-4’s bolt can ride forward when the selector switch is on safe, allowing the firing pin to strike a bullet’s primer.

“Numerous soldiers showed us bullets in their magazines that had small dents in the primer,” the Army report said.

Reliability complaints also found fault with the oil soldiers and Marines used to clean their weapons. In the dusty, sandstorm-plagued battlefields of Iraq, weapons became clogged with sand, trapped by the heavy oil, called CLP.

Several Washington Post articles recalling the night the 507th Maintenance Company was ambushed recounted moments when soldiers in the convoy, including Pfc. Jessica Lynch, battled their weapons to continue fighting Iraqi irregular forces.

“In the swirling dust, soldiers’ rifles jammed,” one article reported. “Pfc. Patrick Miller, 23, from suburban Wichita, began shoving rounds into his rifle one at a time, firing single shots at enemies swarming all around.”

“We had no working weapons,” Sgt. James Riley told The Washington Post. “We couldn’t even make a bayonet charge — we would have been mowed down.”

The Army’s after-action found more soldiers unhappy with CLP.

“The sand is as fine as talcum powder,” the report stated. “The CLP attracted the sand to the weapon.”

Unlike the soldiers’ reports after Afghanistan, Marines in Iraq said the 5.56 mm round fired from the M-16 “definitely answered the mail” and “as long as shots were in the head or chest, they went down.” The Marine reports said many were initially skeptical of the small rounds’ performance against the heavier 7.62 mm round fired from AK-47s. There were reports of enemy being shot and not going down, but most were referencing non-lethal shots on extremities.

Still, “there were reports of targets receiving shots in the vitals and not going down. These stories could not be described, but are of the rare superhuman occurrences that defy logic and caliber of round.”

The report said Marines asked for a heavier-grained round — up to 77 grains.

The M-16 series of rifles fires a 55-grain bullet, a projectile that weighs slightly more than three-and-a-half grams. Some servicemembers believe a heavier-grained bullet would carry more energy downrange, creating greater knockdown power.

Both soldiers and Marines also noted problems with the M-9 9 mm pistol.

“There was general dissatisfaction with this weapon,” the Army report said. “First and foremost, soldiers do not feel it possesses sufficient stopping power.”

Soldiers asked for a tritium glow-in-the-dark sight for night firing.

But soldiers and Marines alike railed against the poor performance of the M-9 ammunition magazines.

“The springs are extremely weak and the follower does not move forward when rounds are moved,” the Marine report stated. “If the magazine is in the weapon, malfunctions result.”

Soldiers complained that even after they were told to “stretch” the springs and load only 10 rounds instead of the maximum 15, the weapons still performed poorly. Lack of maintenance was determined not to be the cause.

“Multiple cleanings of the magazine each day does not alleviate the problem,” the Marine report stated. “The main problem is the weak/worn springs.”

Still, Marines wanted more pistols to back up their rifles, especially in urban environments, according to the report.

[ArtofPain]

Marines with AKs?!
I thought only the black-ops guys use enemy weapons so they could get ammo behind enemy lines.
Didnt know that regular units use it as well. Whats the reason behind it?
Becouse M16 sucks! It need regular cleening and in sandy environment AKs are much better!

[Midav]

Agreed that the M-16 needs more cleaning. However, it's not so much because they suck, as a shortage of weapons.

I'd like to hear anyone with a 5.56mm round in their chest say a weapon sucks...

[Dennis G]

I still believe that if they wanted something with more knockdown power those troops should discard those ak's and ask for some full auto M1A's from the armory, a good, reliable, very accurate weapon, with good knock down power and some armor piercing abilities. But I guess it all boils down to individual preferences, what good is your weapon if you don't like and it can't perform up to par with what you need out of it. I could see why they would maybe prefer an ak, they just wanted something with the legendary reliability of an ak. The fact thay they damn near always fire unless your ammo is second rate and probably they could find parts for one anywhere in the middle east. Besides they probably do more fighting in the type of clearing houses room-to-room fighting than anything else.

Man it's weird to see the nation that puts more money than any other in the history of the world in developing weapons counting on one of the most cheapest weapons yet time tested weapons ever created.

[rob]

i think the primary reason for those was a shortage of weaopns as you dont see as many us soldiers carring them any more, in pictures anyway.

[ArtofPain]

Shortage? It's very strange for me to hear this!

[dacanadianbomb]

Is that picture a full unit ?
Some carrying G3 looking collapsible stock rifles there, and ak variations?
Is that normal for over there ?

[Sundowner]

Is that picture a full unit ?
Some carrying G3 looking collapsible stock rifles there, and ak variations?
Is that normal for over there ?That Rifle with collapsible stock is actualy FN FAL, and they don't look like a regular unit... more like mercs to me.

[perdurabo]

Shortage? It's very strange for me to hear this!
yeah US tankers had only 2xM4 in tank so when they where sent to patrol duty they dind't had enough of own guns. old story discused here thoudand times :)
Zdrastvojtie

[MEGR]

There is no shortage of Aks there. It's a good rifle, why not use? Take a few RPG-7s too.

[J-10]

Many American guys like to play AK rifle, maybe want to try a RPG rocket also.

[Deuterium]

Marines with AKs?!
I thought only the black-ops guys use enemy weapons so they could get ammo behind enemy lines.
Didnt know that regular units use it as well. Whats the reason behind it?
Becouse M16 sucks! It need regular cleening and in sandy environment AKs are much better!

Obviously not well thought out. Much better? That's a laugh. Yes it is true; an AK can take more dirt than an M-16 series. This speaks of the discipline of the soldier however. Having been in combat there is always time to clean your weapon. There is no way in hell I'd choose an AK over an M-16 except in certain circumstances..

Faults of the AK...

1. Horrible selector lever, leads to ADs
2. Horrible sights, leads to inaccurate shooting
3. Poor mag release, slow mag changes.
4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon
5. Trigger job is plain SLOP!!

Other than that it's great. 1947 technology.

[Deuterium]

Shortage? It's very strange for me to hear this!

Not a shortage it's MTOE. It's kinda like the RPG gunner. What is the MTOE weapon for the RPG gunner in Russia? In Poloand it was this tiny little 9mm machinegun. I'd want an AK too if I was in that situation. THAT's why you saw some American troops carrying AKs. Damn the MTOE!!

[oldsoak]

Dunno what the problem is here - the US troops have adapted and improvised - more power to them. If the use AK's , SVDs - hope it serves them well and keeps them safe. I can understand a soldier using an SVD over the M16 ( I forget what the proper nomemclature is ) because it the next best thing to a full blown sniper rifle. The AK's a good weapon - reliable, no shortage of ammo, a reasonably powerful round, and not a problem if you break it - great to have one ready to go by your feet if you have a stoppage on your issue weapon. Good to see the boys covering all bases.

[thatguy96]

Is that picture a full unit ?
Some carrying G3 looking collapsible stock rifles there, and ak variations?
Is that normal for over there ?That Rifle with collapsible stock is actualy FN FAL, and they don't look like a regular unit... more like mercs to me.
Except for the guy holding the USMC-EOD flag.

[hank]

Is that picture a full unit ?
Some carrying G3 looking collapsible stock rifles there, and ak variations?
Is that normal for over there ?That Rifle with collapsible stock is actualy FN FAL, and they don't look like a regular unit... more like mercs to me.
Except for the guy holding the USMC-EOD flag.

That picture is USMC-EOD. Posted here a long time ago. There was a website that had this picture and that was maintained by one of the members but I don't have the link.

hank

[MEGR]

I'm gonna post a few from Vietnam

http://cdl.panam.edu/dayoung/vietnam/Doug_68_with_AK47.jpg

http://www.endtimesnetwork.com/images/steve.jpg

http://www.vspa.com/images/bien-hoa-govea-13b.jpg

http://www.alumni.virginia.edu/virginiaonlinemag/images/forum/vietnam/croft.jpg

[Sayeret]

One problem with using captured weapons is that they may be ****y trapped.

[MaxPayne]

One problem with using captured weapons is that they may be ****y trapped.

i think a bigger problem especially with the ak47 is the sound of the weapon it could cause friendly fire

[RomanS]

Marines with AKs?!
I thought only the black-ops guys use enemy weapons so they could get ammo behind enemy lines.
Didnt know that regular units use it as well. Whats the reason behind it?
Becouse M16 sucks! It need regular cleening and in sandy environment AKs are much better!

Obviously not well thought out. Much better? That's a laugh. Yes it is true; an AK can take more dirt than an M-16 series. This speaks of the discipline of the soldier however. Having been in combat there is always time to clean your weapon. There is no way in hell I'd choose an AK over an M-16 except in certain circumstances..

Faults of the AK...

1. Horrible selector lever, leads to ADs
2. Horrible sights, leads to inaccurate shooting
3. Poor mag release, slow mag changes.
4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon
5. Trigger job is plain SLOP!!

Other than that it's great. 1947 technology.


1. Horrible selector lever, leads to ADs
Really? You have a lot of experience with AKs?
Well I dont have combat experience with AKs either, but I tell you what. I've seen my friends handle their tools that they use in Chechnya a lot. And it aint the selector they complain about.


2. Horrible sights, leads to inaccurate shooting
WHAT?
Sorry but I will take AK open sights anytime over M16. I have a lot more space available in my vision of view.


3. Poor mag release, slow mag changes.
LOL
My personal record is 3.5 seconds. Believe me, I've seen faster. And I have it on tape.


4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon
Right there, you did it. You must be young, and know **** about weaponry.
If you can't hit a man-sized target at 200-300 meters with an AK, you should work and be somewhere else. YOU SHOULD NOT BE HANDLING WEAPONS.


5. Trigger job is plain SLOP!!
Shot a lot of AKs?

[hank]

Permi you are a numbnuts. Deuterium is in the US Special Forces. I imagine he does have combat time with an AK.

It is also common knowledge that SF trains on Russian weapons. Jesus, wake up.

hank

[RomanS]

Permi you are a numbnuts. Deuterium is in the US Special Forces. I imagine he does have combat time with an AK.

It is also common knowledge that SF trains on Russian weapons. Jesus, wake up.

hank

Sorry bud, but when you have quotes like above


4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon

You've obviously need more training, or at least try it first. Somehow I have a hard time believing that he has any experience with an AK. Just read those quotes.

So he is a US SpecForce, great.

I got friends in Russian special forces, and they will be glad to argue about this till the death. Or even have a little competition.

[hank]

Permi you are a numbnuts. Deuterium is in the US Special Forces. I imagine he does have combat time with an AK.

It is also common knowledge that SF trains on Russian weapons. Jesus, wake up.

hank

Sorry bud, but when you have quotes like above


4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon

You've obviously need more training, or at least try it first. Somehow I have a hard time believing that he has any experience with an AK. Just read those quotes.

So he is a US SpecForce, great.

I got friends in Russian special forces, and they will be glad to argue about this till the death. Or even have a little competition.

Dumbass, lay off the crack. It is messing up your eyesight and your judgment. I never said a word until you made an ass out of yourself about Deuterium. Try reading next time before you pop off you at the mouth.

hank

[American Patriot]

Deuterium has 'seen the elephant.' You have not. 'Nuff said :)

[hank]

$5 says Permi has seen the elephant's balls.

hank

[RomanS]

Permi you are a numbnuts. Deuterium is in the US Special Forces. I imagine he does have combat time with an AK.

It is also common knowledge that SF trains on Russian weapons. Jesus, wake up.

hank

Sorry bud, but when you have quotes like above


4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon

You've obviously need more training, or at least try it first. Somehow I have a hard time believing that he has any experience with an AK. Just read those quotes.

So he is a US SpecForce, great.

I got friends in Russian special forces, and they will be glad to argue about this till the death. Or even have a little competition.

Dumbass, lay off the crack. It is messing up your eyesight and your judgment. I never said a word until you made an ass out of yourself about Deuterium. Try reading next time before you pop off you at the mouth.

hank

You are the dumbass,

I reading those quotes, had my reasons to defend the AK. I can almost garantee that alot of your special forces get to play with a copy of an AK. Not a Russian original Izhmash or Tula.

Most of the combat zones out there (accept Chechnya) are poluted with Chinese and Romanian AKS. Those I don't even wanna compare to the Russian masterpiece.

I grew up with AK. Know it inside out, and will defend it till the last days.

[hank]

Defend the AK all you want moron. I don't care about that. Personal opinions are just that, personal. You are right and so is Deut. You are both right because everybody is entitled to a personal opinion. You are a dumbass because you popped off like a little kid.

Nothing you have said changes the fact that you are a punk that popped off before you read the post well enough to tell 1) who read it or 2) his credentials. I on the other hand, pointed out to you your mistake and you refuse to acknowledge. I am sorry you are a dumbass but anybody who reads this will see what happened. Why be a punk?

hank

[RomanS]

Defend the AK all you want moron. I don't care about that. Personal opinions are just that, personal. You are right and so is Deut. You are both right because everybody is entitled to a personal opinion. You are a dumbass because you popped off like a little kid.

Nothing you have said changes the fact that you are a punk that popped off before you read the post well enough to tell 1) who read it or 2) his credentials. I on the other hand, pointed out to you your mistake and you refuse to acknowledge. I am sorry you are a dumbass but anybody who reads this will see what happened. Why be a punk?

hank

Go and bark on a different tree

[Undo]

Permi you are a numbnuts. Deuterium is in the US Special Forces. I imagine he does have combat time with an AK.

It is also common knowledge that SF trains on Russian weapons. Jesus, wake up.

hank

Sorry bud, but when you have quotes like above


4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon

You've obviously need more training, or at least try it first. Somehow I have a hard time believing that he has any experience with an AK. Just read those quotes.

So he is a US SpecForce, great.

I got friends in Russian special forces, and they will be glad to argue about this till the death. Or even have a little competition.

Dumbass, lay off the crack. It is messing up your eyesight and your judgment. I never said a word until you made an ass out of yourself about Deuterium. Try reading next time before you pop off you at the mouth.

hank

:cantbeli:

Deuterium can be what ever he wants to be. He didn't go on an immature name-calling rant.

If I had to take any of the m16s that I was issued into combat I would ditch them at the earliest possibility and grab an AK. Accuracy doesn't count for much when you pull the trigger and your weapon says, "alibi" instead of, "boom."

I have personally never had a problem hitting anything with any of the AKs I have shot. I prefer a lot of things about the m16, the trigger is one of the biggest, but if nothing is going down range, what good is it?

Anyway, this arguement has been done to death in various other threads.

I enjoy the pics and I am not surprised that US soldiers would use AKs. If you aren't issued a weapon, grab one when its available. If your issue weapon isn't functioning, grab one when its available. If your issue weapon doesn't preform the function you need it to, grab one that does, etc. Its common sense.

[Alex_All_Alone]

I've used M4, M16 and AK series weapons (real ones even!), and I like all of them. None of them are perfect, they all have their own little faults.

Remember that they were developed by different countrys that saw their problems differently, and came up with different solutions.




Arguing on the Internet is like being a winner at the Special Olympics - sure you're a winner, but you're still a Retard.

[HumanShield]

i <3 alex!!! :)

[Deuterium]

...

[Fintin]

dut....your the one with the goatee right....cause how tall is that other guy?

[He219]

^ Nope.

My personal favorites are Deut driving the T72 ...

Nice pic's ...
:D

[Undo]

Much respect, Deuterium.

Two quick questions if you don't mind; how does the selector switch lead to ADs? Trying to use it with the off hand? Also, what leads you to conclude that the AK is inaccurate? I hear this a lot, but usually from people just parroting back factory specs, etc. I know it is not as accurate as the m16, but under 300M it is hard to miss with any weapon (target shooting, that is). How accurate is accurate from your point of view?

Thanks!

[perdurabo]

i'm 100% sure that Permski will send his big ass photos with Kalashnikov and his son prabably with Dragunov and for sure pics with big ass guys from SpecNaz...
Deut niece pics mate.

[Deuterium]

Don't forget the T55.



http://users.adelphia.net/~jcbcpc/test/T72.jpg

http://users.adelphia.net/~jcbcpc/test/T55.jpg

[RomanS]

i'm 100% sure that Permski will send his big ass photos with Kalashnikov and his son prabably with Dragunov and for sure pics with big ass guys from SpecNaz...
Deut niece pics mate.

No need to.

I've never been in combat, but much respect to you Deuterium.

I'm thinking about the offer I had from couple of good friends. A quick trip with their teams as their cameraman to the un-calm southern region. I love photography, and to photograph them if we go would be an honor.

Again, like many say. this topic can go on forever, and like hank said Everyone is Right about their opinions.

Respect to you Deuterium no matter what...

[Dennis G]

I personally own both style of weapons and just would prefer the AK-47.




off another forum.


well went out sat. with a buddy and my brother to do some lead slinging. i took my ak's and my buddy took his ar, plus a bunch of other assorted firearms. (handguns, sks, mini 14).

anyways, we get to the site and set up. never been shooting with my buddy so of course we both have to look over each others hardware. we shot pistols for about an hour and then decided to get serious. so we broke out his ar and my ak's. i must say that my saiga 7.62 hung right in there in accuracy with his ar. i was very surpirised. he is an excellent shot and i am mild at best lol, but regardless cans @ 100 had no chance. then it got really interesting. we moved some paper out to about 200. and again my saiga stayed right there with the ar. then the funniest thing. about the time he was over bragging about his ar, it started jamming. then casings started jamming in the bore and he could not get them out. so i grab my cleaning rod and bam got it out. needles to say he was fuming. having to use ak parts to keep his ar firing. it was all in fun but i couldn't help but think back to all the threads about ak vs. ar.

hey i still like ars and would love to get one or two, but it just boosted my pride in my aks.


The AK in a nutshell is the most reliable, simple, and low cost rifle system in the world.

The rifles reliability is almost god like, no other gun can compare I personally have put close to 5,000 rounds through the AK in a single session and not experience a single failure. According to a book title "Legends and Reality of the AK" the testing of the prototypes at that took place at the Izhevsk factory, that during the durability test each prototype had ran through more the 13,000 rounds before testing was terminated because all on hand ammunition had been fired. I would like to see an AR-15 do that!
The AK is also extremely simple, designed for a conscript in the military that can not read, it had to be simple to take apart and operate. Basic disassembly can be complete with no tools. The rifles operation could not be simpler, just set the selector lever to fire, pull back the charging handle, aim, and shoot.
The AK is probably one the lowest costing, and by low cost I don't mean cheap! It can be produced with basic machinery and some of the crudest materials. This is probably one of the main reasons poorer countries continue to produce the rifle; there is no better "buy".
Though the AK is probably as close as your going to get to a perfect military rifle, it is not perfect. First the rifle can get hot quickly, so hot that it makes it unbearable to shoot, a lot of people call this overheating, but that's not true, the rifle will continue to fire long after your hands are burned. Second the rifle is really short, considering it was designed for the average under fed conscript and made to fit in tight spaces this is understandable, but to American shooters who are used to M1s and M14s it is quite small. Third and probably its biggest flaw is the rifles safety, to change the selector lever position you have to physical take a hand off the rifle and move it, unlike most rifles where it can be operated with a thumb.
Now several myths exist about the AK that need to be put to rest. The first is that the rifle is not accurate and you can't "hit the side of a barn." This is total bull****; it is accurate enough with zeroed sights to hit a man-sized target out to about 300 yards. With a few simple modifications, such as lapping the crown, I have seen SAR-3 shoot 1 moa or under at 100 yards. Another common rumor is that the AK is unreliable, I am not sure where this one came from, but again that is false; it is the most reliable rifle in the world. An AK can shoot through a tank or such and such, this rumor seems to be common "knowledge" for those that play games like counter strike, thought these games are fun, don't believe what the so called "weapon experts" on the websites and message boards tell you.

So why would one want an AK say over a Mini-14 or AR-15. Well first off the AK is a hell of a lot better then the Mini-14, though the Mini is really accurate for its first two or three shots, once the barrel becomes warm a lot of people have trouble getting them to group reliably. Second cheap functional Hi-Cap magazines for the Mini-14 are almost impossible to find, and when one does find a functioning Hi-cap magazine, they literally pay for it! How ever some people seem very happy with there Mini-14, but for the price of a Mini-14 you could get an AK and a ton of accessories and ammo. Ahh, the AR-15 and AR owners…the AK owners arch rival! Just kidding, a lot of AK owners own AR-15s too because it's a great gun, hell I even own one. Unfortunately the AR-15 is a really, really pricey. For the price of the cheapest AR-15 you could buy 2 AK rifles and accessories! Also the AR-15 series ranges from good reliability (not excellent like the AK) to total **** (kit guns assembled from a rainbow of company names).

[RomanS]

I personally own both style of weapons and just would prefer the AK-47.




off another forum.


well went out sat. with a buddy and my brother to do some lead slinging. i took my ak's and my buddy took his ar, plus a bunch of other assorted firearms. (handguns, sks, mini 14).

anyways, we get to the site and set up. never been shooting with my buddy so of course we both have to look over each others hardware. we shot pistols for about an hour and then decided to get serious. so we broke out his ar and my ak's. i must say that my saiga 7.62 hung right in there in accuracy with his ar. i was very surpirised. he is an excellent shot and i am mild at best lol, but regardless cans @ 100 had no chance. then it got really interesting. we moved some paper out to about 200. and again my saiga stayed right there with the ar. then the funniest thing. about the time he was over bragging about his ar, it started jamming. then casings started jamming in the bore and he could not get them out. so i grab my cleaning rod and bam got it out. needles to say he was fuming. having to use ak parts to keep his ar firing. it was all in fun but i couldn't help but think back to all the threads about ak vs. ar.

hey i still like ars and would love to get one or two, but it just boosted my pride in my aks.


The AK in a nutshell is the most reliable, simple, and low cost rifle system in the world.

The rifles reliability is almost god like, no other gun can compare I personally have put close to 5,000 rounds through the AK in a single session and not experience a single failure. According to a book title "Legends and Reality of the AK" the testing of the prototypes at that took place at the Izhevsk factory, that during the durability test each prototype had ran through more the 13,000 rounds before testing was terminated because all on hand ammunition had been fired. I would like to see an AR-15 do that!
The AK is also extremely simple, designed for a conscript in the military that can not read, it had to be simple to take apart and operate. Basic disassembly can be complete with no tools. The rifles operation could not be simpler, just set the selector lever to fire, pull back the charging handle, aim, and shoot.
The AK is probably one the lowest costing, and by low cost I don't mean cheap! It can be produced with basic machinery and some of the crudest materials. This is probably one of the main reasons poorer countries continue to produce the rifle; there is no better "buy".
Though the AK is probably as close as your going to get to a perfect military rifle, it is not perfect. First the rifle can get hot quickly, so hot that it makes it unbearable to shoot, a lot of people call this overheating, but that's not true, the rifle will continue to fire long after your hands are burned. Second the rifle is really short, considering it was designed for the average under fed conscript and made to fit in tight spaces this is understandable, but to American shooters who are used to M1s and M14s it is quite small. Third and probably its biggest flaw is the rifles safety, to change the selector lever position you have to physical take a hand off the rifle and move it, unlike most rifles where it can be operated with a thumb.
Now several myths exist about the AK that need to be put to rest. The first is that the rifle is not accurate and you can't "hit the side of a barn." This is total bull****; it is accurate enough with zeroed sights to hit a man-sized target out to about 300 yards. With a few simple modifications, such as lapping the crown, I have seen SAR-3 shoot 1 moa or under at 100 yards. Another common rumor is that the AK is unreliable, I am not sure where this one came from, but again that is false; it is the most reliable rifle in the world. An AK can shoot through a tank or such and such, this rumor seems to be common "knowledge" for those that play games like counter strike, thought these games are fun, don't believe what the so called "weapon experts" on the websites and message boards tell you.

So why would one want an AK say over a Mini-14 or AR-15. Well first off the AK is a hell of a lot better then the Mini-14, though the Mini is really accurate for its first two or three shots, once the barrel becomes warm a lot of people have trouble getting them to group reliably. Second cheap functional Hi-Cap magazines for the Mini-14 are almost impossible to find, and when one does find a functioning Hi-cap magazine, they literally pay for it! How ever some people seem very happy with there Mini-14, but for the price of a Mini-14 you could get an AK and a ton of accessories and ammo. Ahh, the AR-15 and AR owners…the AK owners arch rival! Just kidding, a lot of AK owners own AR-15s too because it's a great gun, hell I even own one. Unfortunately the AR-15 is a really, really pricey. For the price of the cheapest AR-15 you could buy 2 AK rifles and accessories! Also the AR-15 series ranges from good reliability (not excellent like the AK) to total **** (kit guns assembled from a rainbow of company names).

Lets share photos SHALL WE?

lets quit the flame wars.

Love the T55 photos

We played with some armour ourselves

http://russianarms.info/roma/Roman/6a.jpg

http://russianarms.info/roma/Roman/7a.jpg

http://russianarms.info/roma/Roman/8a.jpg

http://russianarms.info/roma/Roman/9a.jpg

[Macs.]

But after all, the G36 owns everything !!! buahahahahha

[RomanS]

But after all, the G36 owns everything !!! buahahahahha
lool

[FDF_Hemppis]

But let's not forget, that even if the world is full of AK’s that any soldier would not touch with a 10-foot pole, there are quality ones too. Like the Finnish RK's woot
And maybe some Russian ones, too... ;)

Points Deuterium presented were good, but not necessarily true on all occasions. Selector can be made to a thumb-one, sights may be different, triggers can be tuned and so on...

As for tolerances, (IMO) it’s a pretty wild generalization you made!
At least RK's are "tight-enough"...

But anyway, respect to Deuterium for sharing his professional views with us, and keep the pics coming :D

[pretorian669]

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/untitledXFB.bmp

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/posing-with-locals.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/walt1.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/walt2.jpg

[pretorian669]

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/Image1yyk.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/wayne-gunderson-ak47.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/ak47.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/021220-training.jpg

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/tguy.jpg

[droopy]

Some romanian AK`s and SVD .
I can`t say that i like that even if people kill people not guns.

[el_kab0ng]

Faults of the AK...

1. Horrible selector lever, leads to ADs

Not true. Semi auto AK's are actually more dangerous than full auto AK's. If you have a true "factory" full auto and not a conversion, you will never get an out of battery AD due to the way the auto-sear engages only after the bolt has seated properly..



2. Horrible sights, leads to inaccurate shooting

This too is synonymous with AR snobs in the civvie world. They get used to the A2 sight system and never learn the proper way to sight an AK. This leads them to believe that AK sights suck, when in fact the problem is user error. Yes, there IS a difference.


3. Poor mag release, slow mag changes.

I will agree with you there. Mag changes are slower on an AK than an AR, but it's less parts to deal with (and less that can go wrong)


4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon

I have to disagree with you on this as well. If you believe that 1-3 make the weapon suck, then of course you'd think #4 was right. The AK was never really designed to engage targets beyond 300Y, so if you wanted something with more distance, use a designated marksman rifle (ie, RomakIII, Dragunov, etc)


5. Trigger job is plain SLOP!!

I will both agree and disagree with you here. The stock triger job on most Roms does indeed suck for trigger slap. When you replace this with either a Bulgie, Russian or even a domestically produced trigger group, the slap magically disappears!


Other than that it's great. 1947 technology.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

I find it funny that everyone tries to compare the M16A2-4 series rifle with an original series AK-47, and little is ever said about comparing it instead to it's true counterpart, the AK-100 series. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare the M16A1 to an AK-47, and you'll find that the "looser" tolerances gave the AK a distinct advantage over the M16 in every theater it served (mostly Vietnam).

In any event, there will always be snobs on either side of the fence, but I have found that over the years, AR owners are just more stubborn about accepting the idea that an AK might be a better choice than an AR when it really counted. I own both, and I've shot all manner of configurations, and I can honestly say that if I needed a weapon to go bang each and every time, I'd prefer the AK over an AR any day and twice on Sunday.

[Midav]

Looks like Deuterium has seen what it does in combat and needless to say, may have used one in combat.

I'd wager he actually knows what he is talking about.

[RomanS]

Faults of the AK...

1. Horrible selector lever, leads to ADs

Not true. Semi auto AK's are actually more dangerous than full auto AK's. If you have a true "factory" full auto and not a conversion, you will never get an out of battery AD due to the way the auto-sear engages only after the bolt has seated properly..



2. Horrible sights, leads to inaccurate shooting

This too is synonymous with AR snobs in the civvie world. They get used to the A2 sight system and never learn the proper way to sight an AK. This leads them to believe that AK sights suck, when in fact the problem is user error. Yes, there IS a difference.


3. Poor mag release, slow mag changes.

I will agree with you there. Mag changes are slower on an AK than an AR, but it's less parts to deal with (and less that can go wrong)


4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon

I have to disagree with you on this as well. If you believe that 1-3 make the weapon suck, then of course you'd think #4 was right. The AK was never really designed to engage targets beyond 300Y, so if you wanted something with more distance, use a designated marksman rifle (ie, RomakIII, Dragunov, etc)


5. Trigger job is plain SLOP!!

I will both agree and disagree with you here. The stock triger job on most Roms does indeed suck for trigger slap. When you replace this with either a Bulgie, Russian or even a domestically produced trigger group, the slap magically disappears!


Other than that it's great. 1947 technology.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

I find it funny that everyone tries to compare the M16A2-4 series rifle with an original series AK-47, and little is ever said about comparing it instead to it's true counterpart, the AK-100 series. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare the M16A1 to an AK-47, and you'll find that the "looser" tolerances gave the AK a distinct advantage over the M16 in every theater it served (mostly Vietnam).

In any event, there will always be snobs on either side of the fence, but I have found that over the years, AR owners are just more stubborn about accepting the idea that an AK might be a better choice than an AR when it really counted. I own both, and I've shot all manner of configurations, and I can honestly say that if I needed a weapon to go bang each and every time, I'd prefer the AK over an AR any day and twice on Sunday.


thank you for this fine point!

[TRACER_BULLET]

This too is synonymous with AR snobs in the civvie world.


For the last 21 years in Army, 18 in SF...

^^ Yup thats the oppion of a civvie AR snob. :roll:



Looks like Deuterium has seen what it does in combat and needless to say, may have used one in combat.

I'd wager he actually knows what he is talking about.

I agree Midav :)


Why turn this into an arguement Deut was just stating his personal (profesional) oppion,
if you like AK's more power to you.

[Virus]

/bow to deut :) thats what i wanna do :(


nice pic's there btw, I personally would probably take an m4, but ive never been in a combat situation, although i have shot both ak and m4, so i know how they shoot (although not a "true" ak i guess lol, but i get the general idea!)

[el_kab0ng]

Just because someone "served" doesn't make them any more an authority than someone who hasn't. Anyone in the free world can gain the same small arms expertise as anyone in the military without actually joining.

If you plan to keep making this a personal attack on anyone that might have something to say on the matter, the admins might as well lock this thread.

[Russian Texan]

Wow, what a heated "discussion" :lol:

Some people like M-16, some people preferr that other rifle, it all comes down to personal preferrences dictated by what you were issued, trained and are use to...

Once thing I don't get though, why, WHY on God's Earth, are you comparing Chinese, Romanian, Iraqi, etc. copies of the Russian gun designed in 1940s? :cantbeli:

First of all, the difference between those is the same as the difference between Rolex bought on a street in New York and the Rolex bought on Rodeo drive...

Second of all, my dear friends, you do realize that Russian military hasn't used, officially, AK 47 since, what 60s of the last century?

Third, if you want to compare latest and the best M-16 family has to offer - make sure you play a fair game: bring into a contest latest AK's how about AK 107/108, a?
http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/ak-107.jpg

You want to talk about accuracy, bring it!!!

In case some of you don't know, aftrer AK4 - 47 came AKM, AK 74, AK 101, AK 103, AK 102/104/105 and AK 107/108...

There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...

[Midav]

Just because someone "served" doesn't make them any more an authority than someone who hasn't. Anyone in the free world can gain the same small arms expertise as anyone in the military without actually joining.

If you plan to keep making this a personal attack on anyone that might have something to say on the matter, the admins might as well lock this thread.

You can own a sports car and drive it, or actually use it in a race and find out how good its capabilities really are.

I listen more to the person that has actually been there and done that, rather than someone that has yet to be there. No pun intended.

However, as was stated, some people have their own preferences and opinions and not much one can do about that :)

As to me personally, I have no idea which rifle I would pick. Haven't shot either one. So, for now, I'd probably like to use my dad's model 1885 45-70, which, would blow a hole much larger through anyone compared to the 7.62mm, 5.56mm or 5.45mm ;)

[TRACER_BULLET]

Just because someone "served" doesn't make them any more an authority than someone who hasn't. Anyone in the free world can gain the same small arms expertise as anyone in the military without actually joining.

If you plan to keep making this a personal attack on anyone that might have something to say on the matter, the admins might as well lock this thread.

Don't go geting your panties in a bunch ...sheesh :roll:
No one has attacked you ... I only see people picking apart what Deut has said.

[ibstolidude]

Just because someone "served" doesn't make them any more an authority than someone who hasn't. Anyone in the free world can gain the same small arms expertise as anyone in the military without actually joining.

If you plan to keep making this a personal attack on anyone that might have something to say on the matter, the admins might as well lock this thread.Healthy Debate is wonderful. Why would I lock this when I have the ability to delete individual posts?

I did notice your opening comments
This too is synonymous with AR snobs in the civvie world. but am not sure where you were insulted. Please feel free to PM should I have missed it, I will happily correct myself.

Although you certainly are entitled to your opinion and SHOULD have your opinion; yes, I, personally, do happen to believe that relying on a tool for your survival, being expected to maintain a tested, quatifiable level of profenciency/skill with light weapons (or more depending on his 18 ident), with a base of the SFQC & SFAUC atleast, w/ SFARTEC or more likely and repeated, long term, "real world" aplicable experinces does, in fact, carry more weapon with me then Joe-Joe the weekend plinker. Ofcourse that does not mean that any particular servicemember or former is never wrong or may not always be right, nor that civy Joe-Joe couldn't be a very competetive, knowledgable, excellant shotter skilled beyond most soldiers (see 3 gun comp) but on the average you would be a fool not to listen to those that do for livlihood versus those that do for hobby....

or next time you need a house built let me and a couple of my drinking buddies have a go at it rather than a pro-contractor and builders - after all I poured my own driveway, framed my hot tub deck and built my tool shed; certainly MY opinion should carry the same clout as the pro contractor's!

[cazorp]

Is that picture a full unit ?
Some carrying G3 looking collapsible stock rifles there, and ak variations?
Is that normal for over there ?That Rifle with collapsible stock is actualy FN FAL, and they don't look like a regular unit... more like mercs to me.

No, they're FNC's 5,56x45mm, FAL is the older 7,62x51mm used for example by the brits during the Falklands.. p-)

FN FAL:
http://www.tam-net.com/osusume/hi-fal-3.jpg

FNC:

http://www.gunsite.narod.ru/fnfnc.gif

[RomanS]

Just because someone "served" doesn't make them any more an authority than someone who hasn't. Anyone in the free world can gain the same small arms expertise as anyone in the military without actually joining.

If you plan to keep making this a personal attack on anyone that might have something to say on the matter, the admins might as well lock this thread.

You can own a sports car and drive it, or actually use it in a race and find out how good its capabilities really are.

I listen more to the person that has actually been there and done that, rather than someone that has yet to be there. No pun intended.

However, as was stated, some people have their own preferences and opinions and not much one can do about that :)

As to me personally, I have no idea which rifle I would pick. Haven't shot either one. So, for now, I'd probably like to use my dad's model 1885 45-70, which, would blow a hole much larger through anyone compared to the 7.62mm, 5.56mm or 5.45mm ;)

Maybe you should just come down to Arizona, and try them all.
AMMO is on me

[ibstolidude]

Wow, what a heated "discussion" :lol:

Some people like M-16, some people preferr that other rifle, it all comes down to personal preferrences dictated by what you were issued, trained and are use to...

Once thing I don't get though, why, WHY on God's Earth, are you comparing Chinese, Romanian, Iraqi, etc. copies of the Russian gun designed in 1940s? :cantbeli:

First of all, the difference between those is the same as the difference between Rolex bought on a street in New York and the Rolex bought on Rodeo drive...

Second of all, my dear friends, you do realize that Russian military hasn't used, officially, AK 47 since, what 60s of the last century?

Third, if you want to compare latest and the best M-16 family has to offer - make sure you play a fair game: bring into a contest latest AK's how about AK 107/108, a?
http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/ak-107.jpg

You want to talk about accuracy, bring it!!!

In case some of you don't know, aftrer AK4 - 47 came AKM, AK 74, AK 101, AK 103, AK 102/104/105 and AK 107/108...

There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...
the thread is not about the quality of Russian arms - should you think the original topic is, re-read it.
Why compare the 47's/74's made in other countries? because that is what the US Soldiers in question are using. This thread is about the use of those AVAILABLE AK styled weapons in use by US forces while fwd deployed. And like most here, if given & when I was given the chance, generally I will use the M4 I trained on, trust and brought with me versus a seized AK or "borrowed" from the AHA; they are usually pretty crappy. Now if like the majority of US Conv. troops using them, I was a tanker with only a pistol, or a 240 gunner or MTOE'd only a pistol or crew served/support weapon - etc I would certainly take that over the crappy M9.

And yes we can compare factory MoA of M16's v/s AK 47's and 74 although the differences are not that great; but that is not what these US soldiers have at their disposal, as you yourself made comment of - they have easiest access to ****ty, old, poorly handled, often poorly maintained weapons - certainly accuracy didn't improve over time.

Hell one guy is talking about a regular conventional Joe needing to change out the trigger group on the AK with a different one - certainly he can just pick that up at the McIraqi's Gun Club across from the old lodge house on the pond (no references to any real place).

By your own analogy - would you rely on a crappy, unknown quality, unknown age, used NYC street corner Rolex with a ticking seconds hand or would you keep the Suunto that you have been using for years w/ the new battery?

[Milkman]

Alteast everyone in the thread can agree that the M9 sucks... ;)

[ibstolidude]

Alteast everyone in the thread can agree that the M9 sucks... ;)
Not for a fishing line weight... but other wise you have my vote for POS as a combat pistol.

[Russian Texan]

By your own analogy - would you rely on a crappy, unknown quality, unknown age, used NYC street corner Rolex with a ticking seconds hand or would you keep the Suunto that you have been using for years w/ the new battery?

I see your point and I agree.

What I do not agree with is the people generalizing and making presumptions like "Iraqi AK-47 are crap, M4 is better, therefore Russian guns suck."

[RomanS]

Wow, what a heated "discussion" :lol:

Some people like M-16, some people preferr that other rifle, it all comes down to personal preferrences dictated by what you were issued, trained and are use to...

Once thing I don't get though, why, WHY on God's Earth, are you comparing Chinese, Romanian, Iraqi, etc. copies of the Russian gun designed in 1940s? :cantbeli:

First of all, the difference between those is the same as the difference between Rolex bought on a street in New York and the Rolex bought on Rodeo drive...

Second of all, my dear friends, you do realize that Russian military hasn't used, officially, AK 47 since, what 60s of the last century?

Third, if you want to compare latest and the best M-16 family has to offer - make sure you play a fair game: bring into a contest latest AK's how about AK 107/108, a?
http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/ak-107.jpg

You want to talk about accuracy, bring it!!!

In case some of you don't know, aftrer AK4 - 47 came AKM, AK 74, AK 101, AK 103, AK 102/104/105 and AK 107/108...

There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...
the thread is not about the quality of Russian arms - should you think the original topic is, re-read it.
Why compare the 47's/74's made in other countries? because that is what the US Soldiers in question are using. This thread is about the use of those AVAILABLE AK styled weapons in use by US forces while fwd deployed. And like most here, if given & when I was given the chance, generally I will use the M4 I trained on, trust and brought with me versus a seized AK or "borrowed" from the AHA; they are usually pretty crappy. Now if like the majority of US Conv. troops using them, I was a tanker with only a pistol, or a 240 gunner or MTOE'd only a pistol or crew served/support weapon - etc I would certainly take that over the crappy M9.

And yes we can compare factory MoA of M16's v/s AK 47's and 74 although the differences are not that great; but that is not what these US soldiers have at their disposal, as you yourself made comment of - they have easiest access to ****ty, old, poorly handled, often poorly maintained weapons - certainly accuracy didn't improve over time.

Hell one guy is talking about a regular conventional Joe needing to change out the trigger group on the AK with a different one - certainly he can just pick that up at the McIraqi's Gun Club across from the old lodge house on the pond (no references to any real place).

By your own analogy - would you rely on a crappy, unknown quality, unknown age, used NYC street corner Rolex with a ticking seconds hand or would you keep the Suunto that you have been using for years w/ the new battery?

Good point ibstoli

[Ezra Coli]

http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/pretorian669/021220-training.jpg

This fellow's about to lose his cleaning rod, one of the few gripes I have with many AKs with no muzzle deice. Shot the end of a rod with my AK-74 when the rod worked forward like that. :oops:

[maw]

****! not this old horse again.

well you know what they say, opinions are like assholes, everyones got one. if fact last time we had this love fest russian texan called me an asshole! here's my asshole, er i mean opinion. i haven't fired every variation and permutation of the kalashnikov platform, having said that, this is what i've found:

- they're heavy

- the triggers are generally crap (gobs of over travel and fuzzy break point), caveat emptor: one of the sweetest rifles i ever fired was a custom ak103(?) built by marc krebs. but again, custom parts aren't readily available on the battle field. reminds of a fn fal thread we had here and i said i hated the trigger 'coz you couldn't easily get it below 7lbs and someone started spouting about a custom trigger setup. at that point it's no longer battle field viable weapon.

- i don't like the sights - and no i'm not some ****bird who doesn't know how to sight in a rifle, it's just that they don't work for me. just like some people swear by the trijicon chevron (af) and others go for the donut (nsw). i also don't like the focal view being so short because the rear sight being so far forward, but there's nothing you can do about that. permskii, the m16 peep sight doesn't have to be a liability, you just shoot with both eyes open. you want bad sights? get a galil (another variant).

- the selector is a weak hand affair on the blind side of the weapon.

- among a lot of the high speed types i know, they universally tell me their all time favorite assault rifle is a kalashnikov variant. wanna know which one.... the sig 550/551/552. therefore it's not the platform just the implementation. another sweet heart is the valmet.

accuracy - rt says bring it. in my limited experience it's not the gun but the ammo. i don't know what it's like now but russian mil spec ammo used to float at just over 1.5 moa on a good day. that's 4.5" at 300 yards, certainly good enough for torso shots. but try going out to 600 yards and you've got issues. it's no big deal to be able to consistently hit good groups on a b24 target sitting at 600 yards with a 14.5'" barrel m4. so if you're going to bring it, fine, but you'd better leave the russian ammo at home.

reliability - i've got a colt lower with a lmt upper that has over 11,500 rounds through it. that machine has been with me to mid-south and rogers and with NO PROBLEMS (exception of ammo related), not one single jam. pat rogers has said this many times that the most relaible m16's are still made by colt and when he see's problem at his classes it's usually becuase folks mismatch components, recievers, uppers, etc.

finally, permskii's point about the latest offerings from ishmash, tula etc not being available for us to evaluate is valid, but that goes both ways. all those folks who say the m16 sucks probably haven't had the chance to throw a couple of thousand rounds down range with the latest offerings from lmt, dd, etc.

[hank]

By your own analogy - would you rely on a crappy, unknown quality, unknown age, used NYC street corner Rolex with a ticking seconds hand or would you keep the Suunto that you have been using for years w/ the new battery?

I see your point and I agree.

What I do not agree with is the people generalizing and making presumptions like "Iraqi AK-47 are crap, M4 is better, therefore Russian guns suck."

Yeah, well Deut did not say that. Read his post. He gave specific reasons and certainly has the credentials to back it up.

I'm beginning to think that maybe you and Permii just don't read so well.

Deut never said a word about Russia, his comments, AS stoli pointed out, all dealt with the weapons he trained with. Additionally, his comments were in response to a bash of the M16 family.

Really, reading would hlpe you out a lot.

Try this:

http://www.hookedonphonics.com/

hank

hank

[Russian Texan]

Listen you moron, may be you are in a mood today or maybe you were just born this way, but I think that you are the one who should read more attentively.

To to drive the message home: You are so stupid, you make Beavis and Butt-Head look like Nobel Prize winners.

[hank]

So does that mean that you looked at Deut's post or not?

I'm guessing you did but the big words got in the way.

hank

[memphiz]

So does that mean that you looked at Deut's post or not?

I'm guessing you did but the big words got in the way.

hank
Damn them big words p-)

[Russian Texan]

So does that mean that you looked at Deut's post or not?

I couldn't, I was temporarily blinded after looking at yo momma.

Yo mama so ugly she looks out the window and got arrested for mooning.

[hank]

So does that mean that you looked at Deut's post or not?

I couldn't, I was temporarily blinded after looking at yo momma.

Yo mama so ugly she looks out the window and got arrested for mooning.

You simply cannot be serious. All you have is yo mamma jokes? You are as dumb as Permii, both of you together couldn't outwit a box of BS.

Can you simply not read? Here is Deut's post one more time.


Obviously not well thought out. Much better? That's a laugh. Yes it is true; an AK can take more dirt than an M-16 series. This speaks of the discipline of the soldier however. Having been in combat there is always time to clean your weapon. There is no way in hell I'd choose an AK over an M-16 except in certain circumstances..

Faults of the AK...

1. Horrible selector lever, leads to ADs
2. Horrible sights, leads to inaccurate shooting
3. Poor mag release, slow mag changes.
4. Poor tolerances, leads to an inaccurate weapon
5. Trigger job is plain SLOP!!

Other than that it's great. 1947 technology.

For Christ's sake, the man even pointed out he was talking about 1940's vintage weapons. I am convinced you just can't read. Then to make matters worse when stoli pointed this out you said:


What I do not agree with is the people generalizing and making presumptions like "Iraqi AK-47 are crap, M4 is better, therefore Russian guns suck."

For Christ's sake, anybody who got through the 3rd grade could see that your comment has no basis in fact. Its just a supposition based on BS.

Yo mamma, for God's sake all you have is a yo mamma. Silly boy, silly little boy.

hank

[hank]

So does that mean that you looked at Deut's post or not?

I couldn't, I was temporarily blinded after looking at yo momma.

Yo mama so ugly she looks out the window and got arrested for mooning.

My Mom is a teacher and she helps people get their GEDs on the side. She is in Alaska right now teaching Upic [sp?] Indians to read English. I'll ask her to help you if you have the courage to just admit that you can't read. There is no shame in it. We're all friends here.

hank

[Russian Texan]

How can yo momma be a teacher if she is so stupid that she thought Boyz II Men was a day care center?

[Virus]

To to drive the message home: You are so stupid, you make Beavis and Butt-Head look like Nobel Prize winners.


.....how dare you bring their great names into this!!!! :hug:

[Fintin]

So does that mean that you looked at Deut's post or not?

I'm guessing you did but the big words got in the way.

hank

eyes aint so swell which me inglesh

phintan

[MEGR]

I can't believe a good thread like this has boiled down to "yo Mama" jokes, and arguing over what is better.

I think it's a dicussion that will never end, and will never go anywhere. When you meet your maker (God) you can ask him. Only then will this discussion end.

[ArtofPain]

In case some of you don't know, aftrer AK4 - 47 came AKM, AK 74, AK 101, AK 103, AK 102/104/105 and AK 107/108...

There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...
Hey man! Обижаешь, бля! I have some expirience with that stuff!

[American Patriot]

What kind of pro-Socialist ****ass uses yo momma jokes?

[hank]

What kind of pro-Socialist ****ass uses yo momma jokes?

You know what kind. I'm having a vision of leisure suits and Steve Martin and Dan Akroyd as "wild and crazy guys".

hank

[RomanS]

In case some of you don't know, aftrer AK4 - 47 came AKM, AK 74, AK 101, AK 103, AK 102/104/105 and AK 107/108...

There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...
Hey man! Обижаешь, бля! I have some expirience with that stuff!

Братан, а хули ты молчком сидишь. Присоединяйся, пидоров гасить.

[rob]

:cantbeli:

^in response to russian texan.

[ArtofPain]

In case some of you don't know, aftrer AK4 - 47 came AKM, AK 74, AK 101, AK 103, AK 102/104/105 and AK 107/108...

There is only three people on this board who can claim that they have any experience with real modern Russian assault rifles: 16 OBrSpN, Permskij and Undo, the rest of you are just blowing hot air...
Hey man! Обижаешь, бля! I have some expirience with that stuff!

Братан, а хули ты молчком сидишь. Присоединяйся, пидоров гасить.
Я не знаю, как у вас в Перми ;) , а у нас - пидоров руками трогать - ЗАПАДЛО! И трепать языкам в сети - не мужское занятие. Я лучше стану богатым и СВОЮ страну богатой сделаю! И не благодаря им, а ВОПРЕКИ! Вот такая моя позиция!

[rob]

their talking **** about us i know it. ;)

[hank]

their talking **** about us i know it. ;)

So what, at least maybe they can read that f**king gibberish, its obvious that English escapes them.

hank

[ArtofPain]

their talking **** about us i know it. ;)

So what, at least maybe they can read that f**king gibberish, its obvious that English escapes them.

hank
Ask jews not to use their worm-like letters in that forum! ;)
Or I'll write to Chinise guys in theirs! :fork:

[hank]

their talking **** about us i know it. ;)

So what, at least maybe they can read that f**king gibberish, its obvious that English escapes them.

hank
Ask jews not to use their worm-like letters in thet forum! ;)
Or I'll write to Chinise guys in theirs! :fork:

What in God's name are you talking about? I am Catholic and Jew jokes are not funny. I have asked the Chinese guys many times to write in English, as well as the Poles. There is no discrimination here, I'm an equal opportunity offender.

hank

[Fintin]

their talking **** about us i know it. ;)

So what, at least maybe they can read that f**king gibberish, its obvious that English escapes them.

hank
Ask jews not to use their worm-like letters in thet forum! ;)
Or I'll write to Chinise guys in theirs! :fork:

What in God's name are you talking about? I am Catholic and Jew jokes are not funny. I have asked the Chinese guys many times to write in English, as well as the Poles. There is no discrimination here, I'm an equal opportunity offender.

hank

you write to me in my messed up spelling ways sometimes...it makes my heart feel warm and gooy

[ArtofPain]

Well! I ask you my favorite question:"What's about main topic?"
If you wonna chat with me go to my ICQ 336718012

[hank]

Well! I ask you my favorite question:"What's about main topic?"
If you wonna chat with me go to my ICQ 336718012

I don't have ICQ. You can find me if you need to, I'm not hiding.

I mean, your words in English just don't make sense. The main topic was gone the minute Permii started his usual BS. This thread was for pictures of US soldiers with AKs. Then Duet dropped some knowledge and Permii started his girlie-whining and here we are. What exactly is you point?

I don't give two ****s about AKs or M4s. Fact is its all presonal preference and everybody with any real experience here has said just that. The difference here is that when you say "I like the AK" I don't bash you for it. Yet when Deut gave a bunch of reason why he didn't like the old, beat up AKs he used in Iraq, weekdn dresser-upper Permii starts shooting BS out of his pie-hole like they were giving it away.

i've had enough of the BS and I told him to can it. He doesn't like that. Where exactly do you fit in?

hank

[DE_Six]

What's up with the momma jokes?

I always thought the golden rule of internet discussion forums was

"Family = Off-limits"

:|

[ArtofPain]

I mean, your words in English just don't make sense. The main topic was gone the minute Permii started his usual BS. This thread was for pictures of US soldiers with AKs. Then Duet dropped some knowledge and Permii started his girlie-whining and here we are. What exactly is you point? hank
You want to know my point? Here it is!
I like this forum I like our free communication! ;) BUT I HATE THIS FU***NG FLAME WARS!!! :fork: I told Permskii stop make BS and fight each other with words. English isn't my native languge so I prefer to spend my time get interesting info rather than chating with guys typing with much more speed than I.

[hank]

I mean, your words in English just don't make sense. The main topic was gone the minute Permii started his usual BS. This thread was for pictures of US soldiers with AKs. Then Duet dropped some knowledge and Permii started his girlie-whining and here we are. What exactly is you point? hank
You want to know my point? Here it is!
I like this forum I like our free communication! ;) BUT I HATE THIS FU***NG FLAME WARS!!! :fork: I told Permskii stop make BS and fight each other with words. English isn't my native languge so I prefer to spend my time get interesting info rather than chating with guys typing with much more speed than I.

Fine, I sent you a pm. Tell permii to shut his yapper and its all good. Also, get some English lessons or stop overreacting to everything said about Russia. Its becoming abundantly clear to me that neither you nor Permii really understand much of what is written. Lost in translation I guess. Nobody here, well at least not me, is condeming Russia or AKs or any of that BS. Eveybody gets an opinion, I for one don't have an AK/M4 opinion because qutie frankyl it doesn't affect me. Others do and so be it. Let them express them, especially the ones who really know because of their experience. Let permii shut his piehole. Then we'll all get to enjoy the pictures and the great info.

hank

hank

[Midav]

Maybe you should just come down to Arizona, and try them all.
AMMO is on me

Thank you and I may just take you up on your offer one day. I live in New Mexico, btw :)

[Vance]

What's up with the momma jokes?

I always thought the golden rule of internet discussion forums was

"Family = Off-limits"

:|
Rule? Internet discussion forum?

[Moledet]

I personaly think that they should get the gold covered AKs and there should be a PIMP sticker on them.

[Midav]

I personaly think that they should get the gold covered AKs and there should be a PIMP sticker on them.

rofl I could see it already.. Tonight's special on Fox:

COPS: Pimps of da hood

[Moledet]

I personaly think that they should get the gold covered AKs and there should be a PIMP sticker on them.

rofl I could see it already.. Tonight's special on Fox:

COPS: Pimps of da hood
rofl

[Dennis G]

a lot of talk, not enough pics

[memphiz]

??????,???????
??????????,??,????,???
????CHARAZARD!!!?????,???
??????,???????,??,JESUS?????????
????POOPY???,????????

[Dennis G]

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/patm41/Sadamguns.jpg

[Chrome Beretta]

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v64/patm41/Sadamguns.jpg


Pimpin G!. Reminds me of the two .45's Nicolas Cage had in Face/Off.

[Pandy]

I'll tell ya what I think of the Ak-47 and M16 Rifles.

I have shot both very good and ****ly rifles from both families.

My likes for the M16 is that the fact that it is light ass hell, that includes the ammo. You can carry lots and lots of it on the move. I really like the sights on my AR-15, I got a grouping of 30 rounds in 1 1/2 inches from 100 yards (one round was 1 1/2, rest were in or around 1 inch)

My dislikes about the M16 is the fact that you have to clean it a hell lot more then the good old Ak. I normally clean my rifle in the guards once every day, like every other good soldier in the US Military. I can image the Russian Military doing the same with their rifles.

My likes for the Ak-47 is the size and weight of it. Yes, it is heavy for some but not for me, it is balanced enough for the round it fires, making it an outstanding rifle to fire. The sights don't drive me crazy but they are good sights. I have gotten an grouping with my Ak-47 of 30 rounds in a 1 1/2 inches from 100 yards (4 shots were 1-1 1/2 inches, rest were inside the 1 inch mark). The ammo is heavy also, making it not as enjoyable holding and/or moving the ammo from point A to B by hand. But when it does fire, whoo, I love it.

My dislikes for the Ak-47 is that (might be just my rifle), my fingers can be burned by a small metal part sticking though the front grips, after firing 2-3 magazines, it gets really hot and sometimes, burn one of my fingers. My Ak-47 has jammed on me, a few times, mainly due to the bad ammo or the bolt catched the spent round before it left the rifle itself. Unlike my M16, where it has only jammed once with me... in the pass 6 years... on bad ammo. Note; Recoil was never a problem.

The reason that the AK-47 and M16s get bad raps is because of their past. Both rifles had their ups and downs, if I had a choose what rifle I would take... I would take Ak-47 without ammo and M16 with ammo... I can pick up enemy ammo on the way. :D

[Dennis G]

My dislikes for the Ak-47 is that (might be just my rifle), my fingers can be burned by a small metal part sticking though the front grips, after firing 2-3 magazines, it gets really hot and sometimes, burn one of my fingers. My Ak-47 has jammed on me, a few times, mainly due to the bad ammo or the bolt catched the spent round before it left the rifle itself. Unlike my M16, where it has only jammed once with me... in the pass 6 years... on bad ammo. Note; Recoil was never a problem.

I cant promise it will fix it, but most extraction problems are caused by a worn out extractor. go to www.k-var.com or www.tapco.comI had that problem with my very, very old SAR-1.

[Dennis G]

Also forgot to ask, do you have a recoil buffer in the gun?

If so it might be short cycling...trying shooting it with it removed

[aartamen]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d930b3127cceb1a3f52730da0000001610

I forgot the story behind this photo, but the guy in it is not a grunt. I for some reason think he's a journo. May be military journo. Check out the pens. This was on his site initially.

[memphiz]

http://www.agrs.org/Baer.JPG

[Sayeret]

Best Quotes of this thread:


I can't believe a good thread like this has boiled down to "yo Mama" jokes, and arguing over what is better.

I think it's a dicussion that will never end, and will never go anywhere.



I couldn't, I was temporarily blinded after looking at yo momma.

Yo mama so ugly she looks out the window and got arrested for mooning.


What's up with the momma jokes?

I always thought the golden rule of internet discussion forums was

"Family = Off-limits"


How can yo momma be a teacher if she is so stupid that she thought Boyz II Men was a day care center?



My Mom is a teacher and she helps people get their GEDs on the side. She is in Alaska right now teaching Upic [sp?] Indians to read English.

hahahah