IDF set to counter Goldstone Report

[GiladS]

Military officials finalizing Israel's response to Goldstone Report, which accused Israel of committing war crimes; NYT publishes findings that contradict report's claims. Judge Advocate General: Goldstone Report a vicious lie




The IDF report to be submitted in response to the Goldstone Report will include photographed evidence contradicting war crime charges against Israel.

The New York Times published Saturday findings from the IDF report that contradict some of Goldstone's claims regarding destruction in Gaza during Israel's Operation Cast Lead.

Among other things, a flourmill that was said to have been targeted by Israeli warplanes was in fact hit by Hamas fire, according to Israel's rebuttal. In another case, Israel will argue that a sewage facility said to have been targeted by the IDF was apparently hit by Hamas explosives.

'Truly vicious lie'

The Goldstone Report addressed at length cases where Gaza infrastructure was allegedly razed by IDF forces. The report charged that the great destruction of civilian facilities was a result of methodical and deliberate policy by Israel's army in a bid to punish, humiliate, and terrorize Palestinian civilians.

However, the charges have been vemently denied by Judge Advocate General Avichai Mandelblit in an interview with the New York Times.

"I have read every report, from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Arab League,” Mandelblit was quoted as saying. “We ourselves set up investigations into 140 complaints. It is when you read these other reports and complaints that you realize how truly vicious the Goldstone Report is. He made it look like we set out to go after the economic infrastructure and civilians, that it was intentional. It’s a vicious lie.”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3838461,00.html

[GiladS]

Israel Poised to Challenge U.N. Report on Gaza

By ETHAN BRONNER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/ethan_bronner/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

TEL AVIV — The Israeli military is completing a rebuttal to a United Nations (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/united_nations/index.html?inline=nyt-org) report accusing it of grave violations of international and humanitarian law in its Gaza (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/gaza_strip/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) invasion a year ago. Its central aim is to dispel the report’s harsh conclusion — that the death of noncombatants and destruction of civilian infrastructure were part of an official plan to terrorize the Palestinian (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/palestinians/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) population.

The United Nations report (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/a-hrc-12-48.pdf), by a committee led by Richard Goldstone, an esteemed South African judge, was published in late September and called on Israel (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/world/middleeast/30gaza.html) to carry out an independent investigation of its conduct of the three-week war.

Israel (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/israel/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), which had refused to cooperate with the investigation, at first dismissed the report as unworthy of attention. But the government quickly found that the world took it quite seriously and found itself accused of premeditated war crimes. It now considers fighting that charge a priority.

“We face three major strategic challenges,” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/n/benjamin_netanyahu/index.html?inline=nyt-per) said recently. “The Iranian nuclear program, rockets aimed at our civilians and Goldstone.”

The rebuttal will be given to United Nations officials in the coming weeks and its contents will remain under wraps until then. But officers involved in writing the report gave some details.

One concerned the destruction of Gaza’s sole flour mill. The Goldstone report asserts that the Bader flour mill “was hit by an airstrike, possibly by an F-16.” The Israeli investigators say they have photographic proof that this is false, that the mill was accidentally hit by artillery in the course of a firefight with Hamas (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/hamas/index.html?inline=nyt-org) militiamen.

The dispute is significant since the United Nations report asserts that “the destruction of the mill was carried out for the purpose of denying sustenance to the civilian population,” an explicit war crime.
A second finding concerned the destruction of a wastewater plant, leading to an enormous outflow of raw sewage. The Goldstone report contended that it was hit by a powerful Israeli missile in a strike that was “deliberate and premeditated.” The Israelis say they had nothing to do with that plant’s collapse and suggest that it may have been the result of Hamas explosives.

The two cases, along with the destruction of chicken coops, water wells, a cement plant and some 4,000 homes, are crucial building blocks in the Goldstone case that Israel set out to eliminate infrastructure so as to cause intense civilian suffering.

The report stated that “the destruction of food supply installations, water sanitation systems, concrete factories and residential houses was the result of a deliberate and systematic policy by the Israeli armed forces.” It added that Israel waged “a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability.”
Maj. Gen. Avichai Mandelblit, the Israeli military advocate general, said in an interview that those assertions went beyond anything of which others had accused Israel.

“I have read every report, from Human Rights Watch (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/human_rights_watch/index.html?inline=nyt-org), Amnesty International (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/amnesty_international/index.html?inline=nyt-org), the Arab League (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/arab_league/index.html?inline=nyt-org),” he said at his desk in the military’s Tel Aviv headquarters. “We ourselves set up investigations into 140 complaints. It is when you read these other reports and complaints that you realize how truly vicious the Goldstone report is. He made it look like we set out to go after the economic infrastructure and civilians, that it was intentional. It’s a vicious lie.”

Another senior military official who spoke on the condition of anonymity following regular military practice, said that neither the military command structure nor the government wanted to invade Gaza in December 2008, but felt that the continual rocket attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians forced their hand. The war, he said, followed the least aggressive of three contemplated routes — conquer Gaza and occupy it again as was done in the West Bank in 2002, retake Hamas’s weapons supply routes and hold them to dry out the organization’s arsenal, or attack the Hamas military and state infrastructure and leave. It was the third that occurred.

That invasion killed some 1,400 Palestinians and destroyed a great deal of property, including buildings like the parliament’s offices that have no military function. There were accusations of inappropriate weapons use. All that led many human rights advocates, both foreign and Israeli, to accuse Israel of violating international norms.

So in November, Brig. Gen. Yuval Halamish, a former intelligence commander, led an investigation that involved scores of interviews of Israeli soldiers and Palestinian witnesses as well as reviewing military videotape and photographs. He submitted his findings to General Mandelblit, who is independent of the command structure but who wears a uniform, offered legal advice on targets before the operation and is widely seen as an insider.

The military investigation is expected to argue that while errors were made, Israel is not guilty of any serious crimes. It will argue that the rules of war need to be adapted to the kind of asymmetric warfare Israel increasingly faces: fighting a popular militia that intentionally mixes with the civilian population.
Mr. Netanyahu and his government have not decided whether to submit the findings to independent scrutiny, as the Goldstone report specifies. They may do so in a partial way — by asking a group of nonmilitary Israeli jurists to examine the rebuttal but without power to recall witnesses, an approach favored by the military and those close to it.

Others say there must be an independent, nonmilitary investigation.

“Israel owes it to its own citizens and soldiers, as well as to the victims, to carry out an independent investigation,” said Moshe Halbertal, a professor of Jewish philosophy at Hebrew University and a co-author of the military’s code of ethics.

Mr. Halbertal said that he was concerned about persistent reports during the Gaza operation that commanders had a “no risk” policy for their soldiers, which led to the unnecessary destruction of property and the shooting of civilians who were feared dangerous.

This is also the view of the organization Breaking the Silence (http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp), a group of military reservists who have given testimony about receiving orders in the war to shoot or destroy in ways that violated ethical standards and the military’s own code.

General Halamish said in an interview that the army chose not to attack many leaders of Hamas because they lived among children and the elderly. He added that during the operation, Israel withheld fire for three hours a day so food and other aid supplies could be brought into Gaza. During those hours, he said, a quarter of the shooting from Hamas took place. Hamas also ambushed the civilian supply trucks.
While many here think that the Goldstone report failed to expose of the practices of Hamas, they are more concerned about their own army’s conduct. Still, virtually no one in Israel, including the leaders of Breaking the Silence and the human rights group B’Tselem, thinks that the Goldstone accusation of an assault on civilians is correct.

“I do not accept the Goldstone conclusion of a systematic attack on civilian infrastructure,” said Yael Stein, research director of B’Tselem. “It is not convincing. But every incident and every policy has to be checked by an independent body because the military cannot check itself. They need to explain why so many people were killed.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/24/world/middleeast/24goldstone.html?pagewanted=1

[Snoshi]

Well, at last.. But a little to late.. IMHO. But better late then never.

[GiladS]

Well, at last.. But a little to late.. IMHO. But better late then never.

Incidents and cases brought up by the Goldstone Report needed to be investigated properly and so on.

Only natural that this would take some time.

[Yehuda]

don't worry,nothing will ever happen from this,maximum,another condemnation that we will ignore as usual

[GiladS]

don't worry,nothing will ever happen from this,maximum,another condemnation that we will ignore as usual

Always good to have you providing your pearls of wisdom Yehuda...

[Yehuda]

Always good to have you providing your pearls of wisdom Yehuda...
you can take the example or north korea,an insignificant country,but thanks to having maybe half a dozen warheads,keeps everyone dancing to their tunes,gets oil,grain,etc,and they are nothing compared to us
if you see history,the only countries that get really damaged by blockades or by diplomatic means are the ones that don't have nuclear power

they will talk a lot,and nothing will happen

[Yehuda]

Always good to have you providing your pearls of wisdom Yehuda...


why do you think irak was invaded and north korea not?

[MaNiC]

Going back on-topic now...

I think it's hard sometimes for people on the "outside" of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (myself included) to distinguish between the political aspects of this strife and the more mundane and abundant realities surrounding this circumstance. Regardless of one's position towards this conflict, I am always weary of people or institutions that try to put the blame squarely on the shoulders of the IDF alone. I have had the privilege to know some of these warriors and they are for the most part very intelligent, charismatic, and hard working young adults. They (like most other warriors around the world) are just trying to do the right thing by serving their country and being the best that they can be.

This is not to say that mistakes are never made. But to extrapolate such sweeping generalizations from a very limited and specific instances I think is just too politically convenient for the most part. It's as if these reports are somehow trying to imply that these soldiers almost want to live in a perpetual state of war and conflict. As if they don't want peace and to live their lives in the pursuit of happiness and decency.

The reason why so many of Israel's blood and treasure is placed in harm's way is not because they want to or because they have nothing better to do, but because there is a real threat out there (not only to themselves, but sometimes to the entire global community as we have recently been witness to).

For what it's worth--as an outsider--I have confidence that if legitimate mistakes were indeed made that the proper channels and authorities will deal with them accordingly (if they haven't done so already). And ultimately, I think that's more than what can ever be said about the other side (who often openly pursue a cowardly doctrine of willingly and knowingly targeting the innocent and civilian populations).

[kahn267]

Even if the IDF rebuttal completely proves the Goldstone report to be a load of garbage,
it wont receive the same media attention the report did and therefore the general worldwide public opinion will remain the same in seeing Israel as a demon

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if Israel was even completely innocent and by miracle and precision not one innocent civilian was hurt or killed - the Islamic fundamentalists wont lose their hate or motivation in attacking Israel in any shape or form. The only difference that negative reports make on Israel's behalf is that it gives such fundamentalists some form of justification which allows them to continue their aims. It doesn't solve any political issue whatsoever and only makes it harder for Israel to defend itself and combat terrorism on its doorstep.

[Spliffer]

As long as they counter with facts and not personal attacks, like I've seen recently.
Judge Goldstone is a good, honourable and brave man. He is also on record as a committed Zionist.

He ran the Goldstone Commission at great personal danger to himself, at a time when people just disappeared in South Afica.
He uncovered Vlakplaas and opened our eyes to the CCB, or "Third Force", basically a false flag assassination and terror squad the apartheid government ran to disappear people doing just what he was doing...

Here he was totally committed to the truth. I don't think he'd suddenly change tactics when in Israel, a country he supports.
If the facts are different from what he witnessed, I understand. Things aren't always what they appear to be.

Then again, of course he'd find war crimes if he looks hard enough. ALL armies commit war crimes. That's the nature of war. People do stuff they wouldn't do normally because they're forced to do so or believe their actions to be just.
Fighting an enemy without a uniform in one of the most densely populated areas in the world doesn't help either.

He doesn't deserve the personal attacks.

NOTE - I am NOT accusing anyone in this forum of bashing him. I have seen articles online bashing him instead of going after the facts.

[RoyB]

^x2.
Good post.

[Yehuda]

As long as they counter with facts and not personal attacks, like I've seen recently.
Judge Goldstone is a good, honourable and brave man. He is also on record as a committed Zionist.

He ran the Goldstone Commission at great personal danger to himself, at a time when people just disappeared in South Afica.
He uncovered Vlakplaas and opened our eyes to the CCB, or "Third Force", basically a false flag assassination and terror squad the apartheid government ran to disappear people doing just what he was doing...

Here he was totally committed to the truth. I don't think he'd suddenly change tactics when in Israel, a country he supports.
If the facts are different from what he witnessed, I understand. Things aren't always what they appear to be.

Then again, of course he'd find war crimes if he looks hard enough. ALL armies commit war crimes. That's the nature of war. People do stuff they wouldn't do normally because they're forced to do so or believe their actions to be just.
Fighting an enemy without a uniform in one of the most densely populated areas in the world doesn't help either.

He doesn't deserve the personal attacks.

NOTE - I am NOT accusing anyone in this forum of bashing him. I have seen articles online bashing him instead of going after the facts.


with zionist like him,who need enemies

[GB_FXST]

As long as they counter with facts and not personal attacks, like I've seen recently.
Judge Goldstone is a good, honourable and brave man. He is also on record as a committed Zionist.

He ran the Goldstone Commission at great personal danger to himself, at a time when people just disappeared in South Afica.
He uncovered Vlakplaas and opened our eyes to the CCB, or "Third Force", basically a false flag assassination and terror squad the apartheid government ran to disappear people doing just what he was doing...

Here he was totally committed to the truth. I don't think he'd suddenly change tactics when in Israel, a country he supports.
If the facts are different from what he witnessed, I understand. Things aren't always what they appear to be.

Then again, of course he'd find war crimes if he looks hard enough. ALL armies commit war crimes. That's the nature of war. People do stuff they wouldn't do normally because they're forced to do so or believe their actions to be just.
Fighting an enemy without a uniform in one of the most densely populated areas in the world doesn't help either.

He doesn't deserve the personal attacks.

NOTE - I am NOT accusing anyone in this forum of bashing him. I have seen articles online bashing him instead of going after the facts.

He may have done good work once before.

He may have agreed to conduct the Gaza investigation with an open mind and honorable intent.

However, the report that bears his name is biased and mendacious. For that reason his name is sullied. Now, he is either a patsy or suffers from a deficient moral compass.

I tend to think it is the former and not the latter. However, he must repudiate the report that bears his name if he is to rehabilitate his reputation.

[RoyB]

The report was biased from the beginning, there's no doubt about that.

[Yehuda]

he probably decided to sell his soul,for a good job in the un,or something like that
or,he is too stupid to know that he was being used as an example jew

[Player]

he probably decided to sell his soul,for a good job in the un,or something like that
or,he is too stupid to know that he was being used as an example jew

Or maybe, just maybe...He strongly opposes war crimes and believes that his duty is to keep the war criminals accountable for their crimes against humanity and violation of human rights regardless of their nationality and religion? I'm not saying Israel is to be blamed for war crimes in its performance of the operation "Cast Lead", but I'm saying that even good people can be wrong sometimes. Perhaps this time Goldstone was wrong, but mostly he's a great person with a big and brave heart that should be served as an example to many, many people in this world.

Obviously you don't know the person at all, so why already to judge him so hard? Why don't you first read his biography and keep your narrow minded comments to yourself?

[BlackWarder]

Or maybe, just maybe...He strongly opposes war crimes and believes that his duty is to keep the war criminals accountable for their crimes against humanity and violation of human rights regardless of their nationality and religion? I'm not saying Israel is to be blamed for war crimes in its performance of the operation "Cast Lead", but I'm saying that even good people can be wrong sometimes. Perhaps this time Goldstone was wrong, but mostly he's a great person with a big and brave heart that should be served as an example to many, many people in this world.

If he was than he surely forgot to take a closer look into Hamas....

Warder

[Player]

If he was than he surely forgot to take a closer look into Hamas....

Warder

Actually he did take a look into Hamas, and made a report of war crimes that Hamas is responsible for. But for some reason the UN only picked the part that belongs to Israel... Even Goldstone himself criticized the UN for this.

[Yehuda]

Or maybe, just maybe...He strongly opposes war crimes and believes that his duty is to keep the war criminals accountable for their crimes against humanity and violation of human rights regardless of their nationality and religion? I'm not saying Israel is to be blamed for war crimes in its performance of the operation "Cast Lead", but I'm saying that even good people can be wrong sometimes. Perhaps this time Goldstone was wrong, but mostly he's a great person with a big and brave heart that should be served as an example to many, many people in this world.

Obviously you don't know the person at all, so why already to judge him so hard? Why don't you first read his biography and keep your narrow minded comments to yourself?


ah,he is so tender,im going to cry,hahha
please,war crimes?why nobody sees whats happening in darfur,fpor example,?or all over africa?or in colombia,by the farc and eln?
maybe im narrow minded,but you are delusional

[Yehuda]

Actually he did take a look into Hamas, and made a report of war crimes that Hamas is responsible for. But for some reason the UN only picked that part that belongs to Israel... Even Goldstone himself criticized the UN for that.
how many pages he dedicated to hamas and how many to israel?maybe one or two to hamas,and the rest for israel

[Player]

ah,he is so tender,im going to cry,hahha

That's just childish...


please,war crimes?why nobody sees whats happening in darfur,fpor example,?or all over africa?or in colombia,by the farc and eln?
maybe im narrow minded,but you are delusional

People see it, but what can they do? People know that unlike the places you mentioned Israel is a civilized country that would listen to criticism and in the cases in which it has faults - do something about it. You can't say the same thing about Darfrur, can you?

[Yehuda]

maybe,or its maybe,because the palestnian "brothers"like saudi arabia,or iran,have oil,and we don't
money talks

its not childish,its childish to asume like you that all of this,is made with pure hearth and a desire to improve the lives of the "poor" "palestinians"

[BlackWarder]

Actually he did take a look into Hamas, and made a report of war crimes that Hamas is responsible for. But for some reason the UN only picked the part that belongs to Israel... Even Goldstone himself criticized the UN for this.

I don't know about you but when the report came out I read the all thing, Hamas is hardly mentioned by name in the report and is handled with kid gloves, the report was clearly one sided and biased from the start, while Israel is being accused of intent without evidence Hamas is cleared regardless of evidences to the contrary.

Some people just write it better: Understanding the Goldstone report (http://goldstonereport.org/)

Warder

[Player]

maybe,or its maybe,because the palestnian "brothers"like saudi arabia,or iran,have oil,and we don't
money talks

How is that relevant? Saudi Arabia and Iran are among the most criticized countries, especially when it comes to the violations of human rights.


its not childish,its childish to asume like you that all of this,is made with pure hearth and a desire to improve the lives of the "poor" "palestinians"

I don't really get your point. The Palestinians deserve no less than any other human beings, as simple as that.

[Yehuda]

How is that relevant? Saudi Arabia and Iran are among the most criticized countries, especially when it comes to the violations of human rights.



I don't really get your point. The Palestinians deserve no less than any other human beings, as simple as that.
please,the citizism that saudi arabia or iran get,are nothing,did they got reports like goldstone?no,nothing

no,its childish for you,to asume that goldstone has any humanitarian reasons behind it,its just another way of bashing israel

[Player]

please,the citizism that saudi arabia or iran get,are nothing,did they got reports like goldstone?no,nothing

no,its childish for you,to asume that goldstone has any humanitarian reasons behind it,its just another way of bashing israel

It seems like no matter what people try to tell you it always leads to the same narrow minded response - "They just hate us, that's why".

I'm out of this discussion as it feels like talking to a wall.

[Yehuda]

It seems like no matter what people try to tell you it always leads to the same narrow minded response - "They just hate us, that's why".

I'm out of this discussion as it feels like talking to a wall.
no problem,if you preffer to lie to yourself fine,many jews around the world,did the same,it didn't ended very well for them

[BlackWarder]

As much as I hate to agree with Yehuda looking at HRW ME coverage for 2009 it does seems that there is a greater intrest in Israel than any two other ME countries combined...

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/data/images/Image/hrw_2009_table1.png

and the fact that one of the founders of HRW is Saudi Arabia (http://blog.ngo-monitor.org/other-ngos/human-rights-watch/hrw-goes-to-saudi-arabia-to-demonize-israel-and-raise-money/) tend to question the vedality of it's mandat....

You can check how HRW did in 09' here: Obsession and Scandals: HRW in 2009 (http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/obsession_and_scandals_hrw_in_)

Warder

[Yehuda]

and look at the second one,iran,the second main enemy of saudi arabia,after israel

[GiladS]

'Ban Ki-Moon mirrors our sentiments on Goldstone'

Jerusalem is quick to show satisfaction with document submitted by UN secretary general to UN General Assembly even though it claims conclusions cannot yet be drawn regarding Israel's investigation of Gaza war

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3844856,00.html

[lunte]

you can take the example or north korea,an insignificant country,but thanks to having maybe half a dozen warheads,keeps everyone dancing to their tunes,gets oil,grain,etc,and they are nothing compared to us
if you see history,the only countries that get really damaged by blockades or by diplomatic means are the ones that don't have nuclear power

they will talk a lot,and nothing will happen

Very good Yehuda. Sounds like another country I know off with very influential friends