German POWs. 17 July 1944

[Abbyy]

A column of 57,000 German POWs led through central Moscow on July 17, 1944.

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d53/582.JPG

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d53/675.JPG


A file photo of German prisoners of WW II being convoyed through the streets of Moscow 60 years ago in 1944. The total number of convoyed prisoners of war was about 57,000, including 20 generals and 1200 officers. A FILE PHOTO.


http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d76/13.JPG

[catalyst]

feel sorry for the German prisoners....Imagine being a prisoner in Russia during ww2!

At least the western allies treated the Germans with some respect.

[ArtofPain]

feel sorry for the German prisoners....Imagine being a prisoner in Russia during ww2!

At least the western allies treated the Germans with some respect.
You'd better be POW in Germany? In Aushwic or Dohau?

[ode]

Germans treated their Russian prisoners like **** and Russians treated their German prisoners like ****.
The Western allies treated their prisoners quite well and were treated quite well too.

[ArtofPain]

Did you ever hear about "Untermensh theory"

[Kilgor]

Ive seen the video footage of this.

They even get a heap of street cleaning cars afterwards to wash the streets ;)

[Freibier]

On the eastern front, no quarter was given and no quarter was expected. German prisoners weren't treated worse than russian prisoners in germany.
Glad that russia and germany are friendly with each other now :)

[Jester]

You'd better be POW in Germany? In Aushwic or Dohau?
Both Camps, Auschwitz and Dachau, were Conzentrationcamps, not POW- Camps!

[Thomsen]

The Western allies treated their prisoners quite well and were treated quite well too.




In Andernach about 50,000 prisoners of all ages were held in an open field surrounded by barbed wire. The women were kept in a separate enclosure I did not see until later. The men I guarded had no shelter and no blankets; many had no coats. They slept in the mud, wet and cold, with inadequate slit trenches for excrement. It was a cold, wet spring and their misery from exposure alone was evident.

Even more shocking was to see the prisoners throwing grass and weeds into a tin can containing a thin soup. They told me they did this to help ease their hunger pains. Quickly, they grew emaciated. Dysentery raged, and soon they were sleeping in their own excrement, too weak and crowded to reach the slit trenches. Many were begging for food, sickening and dying before our eyes. We had ample food and supplies, but did nothing to help them, including no medical assistance.

and so on, read complete article for more details.

http://www.rense.com/general19/camps.htm


Dachau and Auschwitz were POW-Camps?

Seems that old russian propaganda still works... :roll:

[ArmedPacifist]

Germans treated British and Canadian prisoners quite well.

Since they found them to be the model of how they wanted Germans to be.

Russians executed most of their prisoners.

I would have a better chance of surviving in a concentration camp, then I would as a POW in Russia.

[ShotOver]

Yeah, the surrender of stalingrad gave the russians alot of prisioners. I heard most died in work camps?

[catalyst]

Many concentration camps and "other" camps had Russian POWs attached in sub camps.

Most of the large concentration/death/extermenation camps were comprised of many sub camps all labelled Aushwitz 11 and so on.

[hank]

Not many of those boys lived to tell the story.

hank

[Abbyy]

Though conditions for German POWs in Soviet camps was very hard and some died most of them returned to hone after some years in Soviet Union. At least nobody performed any kinds of mass killings of German POWs. Remember what they did in their concentration camps...

[hank]

Though conditions for German POWs in Soviet camps was very hard and some died most of them returned to hone after some years in Soviet Union. At least nobody performed any kinds of mass killings of German POWs. Remember what they did in their concentration camps...

I'm not assessing any blame or accusing the Soviets of anything, btu the facts are that lots of German POWs never made it back. Especially SS soldiers. Again, not playing the blame game, but it is a fact that many German POWs died in camps, as did many Soviet POWs in German camps.

I got to go to Buchenwald in 1992 and let me assure you that many Communist party member POWs died in that camp at the hands of the SS.

hank

[mi35d]

Actually, you're rather wrong. There are many accounts of mass killings of POW's by the Russians.

An example would be the Infamous, "Polish Officers" massacre. in 41.

Also remember that many German POW's died AFTER 1945. They were kept in Russia as slave labor well into the 1950's.

[hank]

Actually, you're rather wrong. There are many accounts of mass killings of POW's by the Russians.

An example would be the Infamous, "Polish Officers" massacre. in 41.

Also remember that many German POW's died AFTER 1945. They were kept in Russia as slave labor well into the 1950's.

Good point. As I said, not many of those boys lived to tell the story.

hank

[Thomsen]

Though conditions for German POWs in Soviet camps was very hard and some died most of them returned to hone after some years in Soviet Union.

You don´t believe this yourself, don´t you?



I got to go to Buchenwald in 1992 and let me assure you that many Communist party member POWs died in that camp at the hands of the SS.

Same mistake as always, not every russian soldier was member of communist party as not every german soldier was member of the NSDAP.


.
Also remember that many German POW's died AFTER 1945. They were kept in Russia as slave labor well into the 1950's.

The lead-mines in Russia, yes. :|

[Sayeret]

feel sorry for the German prisoners....Imagine being a prisoner in Russia during ww2!

At least the western allies treated the Germans with some respect.

It was a war and thats what happened as a result of being captured but the samething happened to the Russians who captured by Germany.

[hank]

Though conditions for German POWs in Soviet camps was very hard and some died most of them returned to hone after some years in Soviet Union.

You don´t believe this yourself, don´t you?



I got to go to Buchenwald in 1992 and let me assure you that many Communist party member POWs died in that camp at the hands of the SS.

Same mistake as always, not every russian soldier was member of communist party as not every german soldier was member of the NSDAP.


.
Also remember that many German POW's died AFTER 1945. They were kept in Russia as slave labor well into the 1950's.

The lead-mines in Russia, yes. :|

I did not say they were. The fact is that not many POWs were kept at Buchenwald. Not many Jews either. Buchenwald was primarily for Communists, Gypsies and the mentally disabled. I know not every Russian soldier was a communist party member just as not every German soldier was a Nazi party member. Jumping to conclusions is always a mistake. I'll say it again, not many of the boys in those photos made it back alive.

hank

[Viktor_s]

Out of more than 80,000 prisoners taken at Stalingrad (I don;t remember the precise figure, might be 81 or 87), more than 5000 returned home.

This is pretty much proportionate if you draw a parallel between how many russian prisoners were taken by Germans and how many survived till being liberated.

Anyway, stories of German atrocities were circulated during the war, stirring the hatred and boosting the morale "payback". This is a common practise.

Also, quite a few times when recon troops took a German soldier(s) for questioning (sort of intelligence info), many of them didn't get to the sorting point after questioning, being shot "attempting to escape".

Finally, can you really blame Russian troops, after all the things that Nazis have done? I think not. Plus Germans were far more civilised on the Western front, than on the Eastern front.

[hank]

Out of more than 80,000 prisoners taken at Stalingrad (I don;t remember the precise figure, might be 81 or 87), more than 5000 returned home.

This is pretty much proportionate if you draw a parallel between how many russian prisoners were taken by Germans and how many survived till being liberated.

Anyway, stories of German atrocities were circulated during the war, stirring the hatred and boosting the morale "payback". This is a common practise.

Also, quite a few times when recon troops took a German soldier(s) for questioning (sort of intelligence info), many of them didn't get to the sorting point after questioning, being shot "attepting to escape".

Finally, Can you really blame Russian troops, after all the things that Nazis have done? I think not. Plus Germans were far more civilised during on the Western front, than on the Eastern front.

Do you read English?


I'm not assessing any blame or accusing the Soviets of anything, btu the facts are that lots of German POWs never made it back. Especially SS soldiers. Again, not playing the blame game, but it is a fact that many German POWs died in camps, as did many Soviet POWs in German camps.

Last time. No blame, but not many of those boys lived to tell the story.

hank

[Viktor_s]

Do you read English?

:D Yes I do mate! This happened due to your post arriving when I was writing mine, therefore was unable to see your "2 cents".

Eeeaaasy tiger! ;)

Also I wasn't replying to your post, but to all at once, (that's why there wasn't your name mentioned in the post.

[hank]

Doubtful, I posted that quote over 30 minutes ago. RRRRRRR!

No offense taken, hope its the same on your end. These Russian = bad threads are always stupid, should have kept my mouth shut.

Not defending/comdemning anybody but a lot of Russian and German soldiers dies while POWs. Simple as that. Tragedy all around.

I stand by my statement, the majority of the Germans in those photos dies before they got a chance to be free.

hank

[Thomsen]

Finally, can you really blame Russian troops, after all the things that Nazis have done? I think not. Plus Germans were far more civilised on the Western front, than on the Eastern front.

Blame them for their behaviour in the first months of the war on the eastern front? Blame them for lots of mutilated bodies of german soldiers?

Later in the war OK, eye for an eye. :|

You still have to remember the political orders (e.g. Hitler´s "Komissar instruction").

If you mention the western front, allied troops were also not always as civilised as the tell to have been.

[DE_Six]

Though conditions for German POWs in Soviet camps was very hard and some died most of them returned to hone after some years in Soviet Union. At least nobody performed any kinds of mass killings of German POWs. Remember what they did in their concentration camps...

:roll:

Of the 91,000 German POWs captured in Stalingrad, only 6,000 returned home in the mid-50s. Soviet work camps were mass killing in themsleves.

[Kitsune]

Armed Pacifist wrote:
Germans treated British and Canadian prisoners quite well.

Since they found them to be the model of how they wanted Germans to be.

e]

I have to disagree. Germans are superior to anyone, that includes British and Canadians. Although after seeing some episodes of Due South I have to admit that Canadians like Const. Benton Fraser come quite close.


p-)

[RomanS]

2 words


Village "BABIY YAR"


What do you expect from us Russians? Germans come in, slaughter our people, and expect to be treated with respect.

I say fuk this, eye for an eye.

LONG LIVE RUSSIA

[Zapp Brannigan]

Approximately 9,000 Soviet POWs were sent to Buchenwald, of which about 800 survived. Auschwitz II (Auschwitz-Birkenau) was built in autumn 1941. Approximately 10,000 Soviet POWs were sent there to help in the construction, of which about 150 were alive in 1942. Other concentration camps also had various numbers of POWs. In most cases, it appears these were Jewish soldiers or labor for camp construction. I have been to a site a couple klicks north of Dachau's main camp where SS guards used Soviet POWs for target practice.

Reliable estimates are hard to come by (many come from sources with agendas who don't source themselves well), but a best guess is that the Wehrmacht took about 5.5 million Soviet prisoners of war, of which approximately 3 million died in captivity (either in POW camps, on the transit to and between camps, or while being used as forced labor). Jewish POWs were separated from other Soviet soldiers and sent to concentration camps.

Deaths were, according to, among others, records of the Generalquartiermeister of the German Army, primarily due to starvation, poor sanitation, disease, long marches to the rear and insufficient clothing and shelter.

Also, of the 2 million or so Soviet POWs who were repatriated to the USSR, some tens to possibly hundreds of thousands died in the Gulag. No one has more than a rough guess for that number, but considering this includes soldiers of the Cossack cavalry corps, ROA members, and other Hiwis and volunteer legions of both the Army and the Waffen SS, an estimate on the high end would be unsurprising.

Of the 3 million or so German POWs taken by the Red Army, an estimated 500,000 to 1 million never returned. The rate among Stalingrad POWs was, as someone already noted, much higher.

I know of no estimates for Romanians, Hungarians, Italians or other German allies other than a combined number of about 137,000 (a Soviet estimate), but I have seen an estimate of 140,000 Polish POW deaths in Soviet captivity (with Katyn being the most notorious aspect of that story).

As for why the Germans treated Russian POWs differently from those of Western allies, there are two related issues: (1) they were not obligated under international law to treat Soviet prisoners the same since the USSR was not party to the relevant treaties and (2) despite legal opinions that they should anyway (to encourage reciprocal treatment), the Nazi hierarchy and the OKW chose a "no-quarter" approach because they considered it an ideological war to which the gentlemen's codes did not apply. When Helmuth James Graf von Moltke (executed for his part in the July 20 plot against Hitler) urged Adm. Canaris to try to get the OKW to repeal the Sept. 8, 1941 decree which essentially took away all rights of Soviet POWs, OKW chief Field Marshal Keitel responded: "Die Bedenken entsprechen den soldatischen Auffassungen von ritterlichem Krieg! Hier handelt es sich um die Vernichtung einer Weltanschauung! Deshalb billige ich die Maßnahmen und decke sie." ("The reservations correspond to the soldierly concept of a chivalrous war! Here we are dealing with the annihilation of a political philosophy! Thus I approve the measures and stand by them.").

[Phoenix]

2 words


Village "BABIY YAR"


What do you expect from us Russians? Germans come in, slaughter our people, and expect to be treated with respect.

I say fuk this, eye for an eye.

LONG LIVE RUSSIA

Then the Russian army was also not better than the SS .

[AVZ]

I would have a better chance of surviving in a concentration camp, then I would as a POW in Russia.

From a very high number of german POW's (100.000) just 6000 arrived at least 5 years and later.Or was it even in the mid 50's???

[Thor]

Just so that everyone knows. It's a war crime to display prisoners as in the first photo.

[RomanS]

Just so that everyone knows. It's a war crime to display prisoners as in the first photo.

and you can't do a JACK **** about it

[baker]

2 words


Village "BABIY YAR"


What do you expect from us Russians? Germans come in, slaughter our people, and expect to be treated with respect.

I say fuk this, eye for an eye.

LONG LIVE RUSSIA


**** this? at least germany admits its crimes unlike some of our former enemys. but I think thats how it goes, when you lose the war. :roll:

[RomanS]

2 words


Village "BABIY YAR"


What do you expect from us Russians? Germans come in, slaughter our people, and expect to be treated with respect.

I say fuk this, eye for an eye.

LONG LIVE RUSSIA


f*** this? at least germany admits its crimes unlike some of our former enemys. but I think thats how it goes, when you lose the war. :roll:

Should of stayed in your corner of the world in the first place.

[He219]

I say fuk this, eye for an eye.
Personally, I don't subscribe to that philosophy because that makes one as bad if not worse as his 'enemy' ...


P.s: I'm not just writing about forum member 'one' either ..
;)

[perdurabo]

Just so that everyone knows. It's a war crime to display prisoners as in the first photo.
Thor among meany war crimes commited by all armies in 2 world war this is weeery minor. Your statment is pure flame bait.
Permski cool down and admit that russian comunist goverment threated ppl(not only POWs) in horible way (like gulags, bulding canal wolga-don) its truth and deal with that. No nation is without faults americans, brits, french, germans, poles, ukrainians, russians every one has its black pages in history.

[baker]

2 words


Village "BABIY YAR"


What do you expect from us Russians? Germans come in, slaughter our people, and expect to be treated with respect.

I say fuk this, eye for an eye.

LONG LIVE RUSSIA


f*** this? at least germany admits its crimes unlike some of our former enemys. but I think thats how it goes, when you lose the war. :roll:

Should of stayed in your corner of the world in the first place.


would the soviet union have done the same?

[mi35d]

"Should have stayed in your own corner..."

Sound advice. Want to explain Poland? Or maybe Finland? How about Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, The Ukraine, East Germany, Romania, Hungary, Czechoslavakia. I don't recall those places inviting the Russians to come in an set up house for up to 50 years...

[RomanS]

PREDICTIONS or NOT

we were attacked brutally

our people were slaughtered

we responded

sounds fair.

I wonder what would US do if lets say German troops came in somewhere in Maine, Florida, and wiped out hundreds of villages. Executed millions of people, and on top of that made it LOUD.

Id think US soldiers would be out for some revenge.

But since the only place that was attacked was Pearl Harbor naval base, I must say US had no reason to be brutal in the WW2.

[Fintin]

PREDICTIONS or NOT

we were attacked brutally

our people were slaughtered

we responded

sounds fair.

I wonder what would US do if lets say German troops came in somewhere in Maine, Florida, and wiped out hundreds of villages. Executed millions of people, and on top of that made it LOUD.

Id think US soldiers would be out for some revenge.

But since the only place that was attacked was Pearl Harbor naval base, I must say US had no reason to be brutal in the WW2.

um...the philopieans...spelling on that is off....midway...um...yeah...we had a few more then pearl attacked...read before you speak internet 'tough' guy

[hank]

I tell you what, anybody attacks an American philopiean I say we rough him up. You in Fintin? :D

hank

[Thomsen]

Executed millions of people, and on top of that made it LOUD.



Seems that old russian propaganda still works... :roll:

You responded?

By leaving POW for about ten years in your lead-mines or by raping women and children who tried to flee. :bash:

[Fintin]

I tell you what, anybody attacks an American philopiean I say we rough him up. You in Fintin? :D

hank


i aint so well at the spielings

[hank]

wurd :D

hink

[RomanS]

I tell you what, anybody attacks an American philopiean I say we rough him up. You in Fintin? :D

hank


i aint so well at the spielings

I speak 3 languages.

You ?

[Fintin]

I tell you what, anybody attacks an American philopiean I say we rough him up. You in Fintin? :D

hank


i aint so well at the spielings

I speak 3 languages.

You ?

english...bad inglesh and assholeess....

[Rantanplan]

http://www.ivs.tu-berlin.de/Lischke/bilderbuch/pfingsten/images/Foto(29).jpg

[Zapp Brannigan]

I must say I am offended by PermskiiOMON's anti-Russian bigotry. What contempt he must have for the Russian people to believe that they should be excused from responsibility for their own actions or be required to even acknowledge, much less atone for their own mistakes. Since even dogs are expected to learn from their errors, he must think Russians are lower than animals. Such anti-Russian hatred should not be tolerated here.

On a more serious note, human beings are animals and cannot deny their baser instincts. But humans are endowed with reason so that they may have the capacity to rise above their baser instincts. To deny this, to give free rein to one's animal nature, or to make excuses when others give such free rein, is to reduce humanity back to its animal nature, and to deny us what makes us human.

PermskiiOMON, you may think you are defending your Russian brethren, but you are in fact insulting them.

[Viktor_s]

Nazi germans when outlining the plans for the Third Reigh, were planning and doing exterminating jews, gypsies, slavs (most if not all nations in the Central, Eastern Europe), with keeping a small proportion as slaves.

Now, How would you feel if when you liberate a village held by Nazis, you find a local well full of dead corpes of children from infants to about 7 years old? Not a toughy question, huh? (the village in question is Davydovo in the Moscow region year 1941, during the battle for Moscow)

As for responsibilities, no-one denies it, everyone has sins, but eye-for-eye is well justified.

Another interesting fact, that when Germans POWs were marched through Moscow (as shown in the photos) There was a complete silence, no one was shouting any abuse.. just silence. At the end of the POWs column where were street cleaning trucks washing the street. The message was clear.

Nuff said.

[Phoenix]

it makes no sence to discuss with PermskiiOMON because he his a ignorant and blind Patriot ( his country is poor and weak but ..... )

[Viktor_s]

Correction to my previous post. There were 91,000 German prisoners taken at Stalingrad Pocket including 24 generals and of course Field Marshal Paulus, who was promoted to that post (from colonel-general) just before he surrended later in the day. The message from Berlin was clear - no Field Marshal was ever captured alive.. so promotion was just like an order to die.

[LeMat]

I think, that PermskiiOMON is right.
Germans were worse than animals. They started the most terrible war in the history. Of course Russians weren`t saint. But german "soldiers" (better use word "scums") were so cruel that they deserved to be tread in the worst way.
It is a pity that not all of them were killed.

[mack pl]

Germans were worse than animals. They started the most terrible war in the history. Of course Russians weren`t saint. But german "soldiers" (better use word "scums") were so cruel that they deserved to be tread in the worst way.
It is a pity that not all of them were killed.

Le Mat, mate, do you forget about september17, about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact :cantbeli: Nazis and Soviets were the same ****...not only "germans" (better word is "nazis") soldiers were cruel, but soviets(not only Russians) too...You are Pole, so you should know that...don't blame only Germans.... :|

regards

[LeMat]

Le Mat, mate, do you forget about september17, about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact :cantbeli:


No. I remember that.



Nazis and Soviets were the same ****...not only "germans" (better word is "nazis")


No. NAZIS=GERMANS. Don`t say that they were different nation.




soldiers were cruel, but soviets(not only Russians) too...You are Pole, so you should know that...don't blame only Germans.... :|
regards

I don`t blame only Germans. I say that Germans deserved that.

[mack pl]

Nazis and Soviets were the same ****...not only "germans" (better word is "nazis")


No. NAZIS=GERMANS. Don`t say that they were different nation.


I didn't said it.... but nation is not political or ideological orientation, so its not so simple....you could said something like that "Soviets=Russians"....is that true?....is that whole true?...No...well, not only Germans were nazis(foreign volunteers), and not all Germans were nazis....but If you like generalisations, its not my business...

ehhh, nevermind, I agree with you that they were bastards, but you cannot judge, who was worst, and that was my point.....Soviets+Nazis=****.


I don`t blame only Germans. I say that Germans deserved that.
ok.

regards

[RomanS]

I must say I am offended by PermskiiOMON's anti-Russian bigotry. What contempt he must have for the Russian people to believe that they should be excused from responsibility for their own actions or be required to even acknowledge, much less atone for their own mistakes. Since even dogs are expected to learn from their errors, he must think Russians are lower than animals. Such anti-Russian hatred should not be tolerated here.

On a more serious note, human beings are animals and cannot deny their baser instincts. But humans are endowed with reason so that they may have the capacity to rise above their baser instincts. To deny this, to give free rein to one's animal nature, or to make excuses when others give such free rein, is to reduce humanity back to its animal nature, and to deny us what makes us human.

PermskiiOMON, you may think you are defending your Russian brethren, but you are in fact insulting them.

Let me hear at least ONE RUSSIAN HERE saying the same fukin bull**** that you just said.

Are you Russian?

Are you speaking for all of Russians?

Were any of your family members killed in WW2 by Nazis?

My grandfather's family was not lucky to see their son grow and fight for USSR

they were burned. May 1942, east of Smolensk where he's village is. OR WAS

[RomanS]

пацаны родные, поддержити своих...

[AVZ]

Le Mat, mate, do you forget about september17, about Ribbentrop-Molotov pact :cantbeli:


No. I remember that.



Nazis and Soviets were the same ****...not only "germans" (better word is "nazis")


No. NAZIS=GERMANS. Don`t say that they were different nation.




soldiers were cruel, but soviets(not only Russians) too...You are Pole, so you should know that...don't blame only Germans.... :|
regards

I don`t blame only Germans. I say that Germans deserved that.


Yeah, they were my nations relatives.I'm sad about it.
And 99,9% of the current german population believes that those times were the worst ever been in Germany.

But when some people think they or their country is better: than you have not been realistic about your past. (Think about it: you'll find a lot of bad things)

If a nation believes in it's superior (about other nations moral or whatever):
IT HAS TO PROVE IT BY NOT DOING THE SAME MISTAKES.

In this event I call another nation as a leading nation in terms of moral and history believings.

[Zapp Brannigan]

Let me hear at least ONE RUSSIAN HERE saying the same fukin bull**** that you just said.

Are you Russian?

Are you speaking for all of Russians?

Were any of your family members killed in WW2 by Nazis?

My grandfather's family was not lucky to see their son grow and fight for USSR

they were burned. May 1942, east of Smolensk where he's village is. OR WAS
пацаны родные, поддержити своих...
Utterly and completely irrelevant, but par for the course. It's nice to see you haven't grown up one bit in the few months I was away. You might as well have said "boys will be boys" for all the weight of moral authority you bring.

I reiterate. The horrors inflicted by the Nazis merited retribution, but they were not a license to become savages oneself. That such savagery happens in war is understandable, but not excusable. Do not demean your own people by saying they are somehow not to be held to the same moral standard as other human beings. You are denying them their status as rational actors and whether you realize it or not, you are denying them their humanity. It is you who insult the memory of those villagers near Smolensk and your grandfather's family.

[radon]

Should of stayed in your corner of the world in the first place.

:bash: STOP . Udssr was a disease . A cancer trying to spread it's **** and BAD system. You know Udssr had agressive expansionalist politics trough the time. You know the Udssr wanted to fight that war in the west. It doesent change anything if the nazi armies first went there , if Udssr only failed to do the same. udssr would have treated german pow just the same if it had attacked first. Udssr is no better than nazis.

Staying away , far away . That is exactly the thing udssr should have done with Finland, and that includes all political intimidation and manipulation after ww2 to the collapse of the udssr.

[RomanS]

Let me hear at least ONE RUSSIAN HERE saying the same fukin bull**** that you just said.

Are you Russian?

Are you speaking for all of Russians?

Were any of your family members killed in WW2 by Nazis?

My grandfather's family was not lucky to see their son grow and fight for USSR

they were burned. May 1942, east of Smolensk where he's village is. OR WAS
пацаны родные, поддержити своих...
Utterly and completely irrelevant, but par for the course. It's nice to see you haven't grown up one bit in the few months I was away. You might as well have said "boys will be boys" for all the weight of moral authority you bring.

I reiterate. The horrors inflicted by the Nazis merited retribution, but they were not a license to become savages oneself. That such savagery happens in war is understandable, but not excusable. Do not demean your own people by saying they are somehow not to be held to the same moral standard as other human beings. You are denying them their status as rational actors and whether you realize it or not, you are denying them their humanity. It is you who insult the memory of those villagers near Smolensk and your grandfather's family.

WHAT???

dude go fuk yourself

millions of innocent Russians were killed - slaughtered
those with Nazi crosses on their bodies were punished, and deserved it.

what do you suggest? let em go and tell them thanks?

[Nite]

Germans were worse than animals.
With this attitude you are not better than the nazis.

[Kilgor]

Keep in mind, the only person better at killing russians was stalin.

[Virus]

Keep in mind, the only person better at killing russians was stalin.

So true, what was it, 20 million? Isn't that more then the germans killed?




BTW, calling ww2 the worst war? It was under my impression that SOOO many more died in ww1..... (looked it up, found that more died in ww2.....so....now i know :) )

[5jumpchump]

feel sorry for the German prisoners....Imagine being a prisoner in Russia during ww2!

At least the western allies treated the Germans with some respect.

As soon as i red that i remembered the scene in Band of Brothers where the guy gives all the prisioners a cigarette . Then he locks and loads and empties a clip at all the soldiers . blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-blap-!!!!!!!!!

[ArmedPacifist]

I believe he used a magazine...

[RomanS]

It's nice to see you haven't grown up one bit in the few months I was away. You might as well have said "boys will be boys" for all the weight of moral authority you bring.

away?

what, were you banned?

[RomanS]

Keep in mind, the only person better at killing russians was stalin.

So true, what was it, 20 million? Isn't that more then the germans killed?




BTW, calling ww2 the worst war? It was under my impression that SOOO many more died in ww1..... (looked it up, found that more died in ww2.....so....now i know :) )

60 billion

[ArmedPacifist]

60 Billion?! Uhhh.....I think that might be a little off.

[5jumpchump]

I believe he used a magazine...

Magazines ? they only carry pages . It would pretty hard to beat 15-20 prisioners to death with a magazine rofl rofl rofl

I get three funnies for that one muwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!

[RomanS]

60 Billion?! Uhhh.....I think that might be a little off.

make it 140 billion people killed by Stalin

http://www.nscollegeprep.cps.k12.il.us/depts/science/brodgers/main_files/dr.evil.jpg

[Vance]

Keep in mind, the only person better at killing russians was stalin.

So true, what was it, 20 million? Isn't that more then the germans killed?




BTW, calling ww2 the worst war? It was under my impression that SOOO many more died in ww1..... (looked it up, found that more died in ww2.....so....now i know :) )

60 billion
Seeing as how that number is 10 times the world population, I'm guessing he meant 60 million.

[RomanS]

Keep in mind, the only person better at killing russians was stalin.

So true, what was it, 20 million? Isn't that more then the germans killed?




BTW, calling ww2 the worst war? It was under my impression that SOOO many more died in ww1..... (looked it up, found that more died in ww2.....so....now i know :) )

60 billion
Seeing as how that number is 10 times the world population, I'm guessing he meant 60 million.

60 million huh. Thats a lot of peeps.

but in reality, where would you burn or burry this many? or even 20million?

[Fintin]

Keep in mind, the only person better at killing russians was stalin.

So true, what was it, 20 million? Isn't that more then the germans killed?




BTW, calling ww2 the worst war? It was under my impression that SOOO many more died in ww1..... (looked it up, found that more died in ww2.....so....now i know :) )

60 billion
Seeing as how that number is 10 times the world population, I'm guessing he meant 60 million.

60 million huh. Thats a lot of peeps.

but in reality, where would you burn or burry this many? or even 20million?

their homes and villages...i dont know...ask stallin...

[StukaJr]

Nazi's deported millions of soviet citizens (mostly slavs) into germany as slave labor - Soviets did no such thing to german population after the war.

Hitler's goal was to eliminate jews, gypsies and slavs... Well, few slavs were permited to be kept alive as slave labor. Also on extermination list - mentally ill and handicapped.

2/3 of the Soviet casualties during WWII were among civilian population, that's not including partisans.

Out of some odd 80,000 german prisoners taken at Stalingrad - 5,000 returned home alive. True. However - they were returned to germany almost right after the war, the germans who surrendered in '45 returned to germany in early 50's, not those surrendered at Stalingrad. The Axis soldiers who marched into captivity in 1942 were already famished and diseased from months of starvation at the hands of their own officers - out of 90 odd german high ranking officers only 5 did not survive captivity. In 1942, soviets had higher priorities than trying to resuscitate tens of thousands of axis prisoners, not to mention rumanian and hungarian troops whom were in a far worse shape (thanks to komradeirie of their german "allies").

Most of POW's died due to poor nutrition and hard labor. Hard Labor - rebuilding the country's infrastructure they destroyed; poor nutrition - soviet civilians' food allowance was not much better for years after the war (once again, thanks to 4 years of scorched earth). Sounds like poetic justice to me.

Being a POW is not a gurantee of survival, even if POWs are treated in accordance with Geneva Convention. German POW's were receiving far better rations in US captivity - however, tens of thousands of germans never returned home (thus, creating vast Eisenhower Holocaust Conspiracy theory).

[Nikolas]

During war in the USSR all was for front, for army.
In rear people received a meal on cards and on norms.
NOT always meal was enough.
Half of country was destroyed.

In this situation it was difficult to provide a normal feed and residing of thousand POW.
Plus a climate. Many POW have died during colds because for many Germans Russian winter was heavy.
If to speak about Stalingrad. Almost all German POW were taken prisoner in very bad condition.
Without a winter uniform. Sick. In a strong exhaustion.
If to take into account a condition of the USSR at that time it is not surprising, that the USSR could not provide comfortable conditions for German POW.
That is why many from POW from Stalingrad have died.

By way of nazis Russian people did not have future. Almost everyone should be killed.

[Zapp Brannigan]

It's nice to see you haven't grown up one bit in the few months I was away. You might as well have said "boys will be boys" for all the weight of moral authority you bring.

away?

what, were you banned?Banned? That's funny. The main problem with this site is that while many of the moderators do yeoman-like work, it does not do enough to get rid of trolls and hate-mongers of all nationalities. You certainly fit that latter category, though on previous occasions even I had come to your defense since at least you weren't ZAV on some topics.

I am (or was) Dave the Dawg. I had a lost e-mail address for my old account. I also have a life, and don't bother with this site too much.

And you are an unworthy debate partner. You want an excuse to be a savage, that's your problem. Don't drag an entire people into your self-imposed swamp.

For the rest of you, since this is supposed to be a photo thread (though it seems to have lost that some time back), below are some photos of Soviet POWs. Also, for those who are interested, the German-Russian Museum in Berlin had an exhibition of photos of POWs a few years back, entitled "Beutestücke. Kriegsgefangene in der deutschen und sowjetischen Fotografie". The exhibition traveled to Moscow last year and should still be there.

I would also recommend looking through the Russian Archives online exhibition on World War Two. Some great pictures of the Red Army in battle and in victory, as well as some moving pictures of suffering inflicted by the Nazis: http://victory.rusarchives.ru/catalogue/index.php

A series of small pictures from the Simon Wiesenthal Center of Soviet POWs (some graphic content): http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/albums/palbum/p03/a0176p3.html

http://www.moosburg.org/info/stalag/bilder/sowjet2.jpg
http://www.moosburg.org/info/stalag/bilder/sowjet3.jpg
http://www.moosburg.org/info/stalag/bilder/sowjet4.jpg
http://www.moosburg.org/info/stalag/bilder/sowjet5.jpg

Soviet POWs used as forced labor in Norway:
http://www.museumsnett.no/saltdalmuseum/Saltdal%20museum/Blodveimuseet/foto/1983-75-4.jpg
http://lotus.uib.no/norgeslexi/krigshist/digiokkupasjon/Stokke/images/120.jpg

Memorial to Soviet soldiers who died in Norway (click for larger image):
http://www.skazka.no/vm-photos-copy/a135-35-1.jpg (http://www.vad1.com/photo/stock/a135-35-4.jpg)

A smaller picture of German POWs in the Soviet Union, from the aforementioned museum collection:
http://www.museum-karlshorst.de/html/museum/da/da09b_1gr.jpg

[He219]

http://pro.corbis.com/images/0000295749-001.jpg?size=67&uid={86dcf626-d32e-45f3-ae9c-17ba1d9c7017}

January 1, 1943: BATTLE OF STALINGRAD - VON PAULUS SURRENDER
http://pro.corbis.com/images/NA005699.jpg?size=67&uid={5adca456-6e17-4a38-8a07-62328c54c88f}

German generals, captured in the Russian's great summer offensive wait under guard on a Moscow square to lead a march of 57,000 German prisoners through the Soviet capital, on July 17, 1944.
http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2/Images/images02-russia4145/Russia1944-POW.jpg
http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2/Images/images02-russia4145/Russia1944-priosners.jpg
http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2/Images/images02-russia4145/Russia1945-Parad.jpg

Victory Parade. Red Square, Moscow, June 24, 1945

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1090701.jpg?size=67&uid={6d31e7e3-f981-420d-8a28-aa0fafcca7bc}

West German chancellor Konrad Adenauer and Soviet foreign minister V. M. Molotov
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1274619INP.jpg?size=67&uid={387d3b88-0e01-4ad2-83f5-ac35b6ea14f7}

January 27, 1955: German prisoner of war in Russia for ten years is shown being carried to a waiting ambulance after his arrival in Lichtenfels, following his release from Soviet slave labor camp Potma, near Moscow. He was unable to walk because of frostbitten feet and in an extremely weak physical condition.
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50693958.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=EBEF9528AFF8E1337390FB4E057F12277757C85AE85A779B

Two former German soldiers entering allied occupied city on one pair of feet after returning from Russian POW camp.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1295617INP.jpg?size=67&uid={896f77e5-6947-4fd8-8654-25c41d78126d}

ca 1955: Friedland, Germany: Ex-Prisoner Embraces Wife. Two German ex-prisoners of war are shown embracing their wives after their return to Germany following their release form Soviet prison camps.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1092217.jpg?size=67&uid={8608a179-4a11-4a25-b43b-114896499eaf}

October 13, 1955: Ten years in Soviet prisoner of War camps have left their mark on the faces of these newly-freed Germans. Here, at the Friedland repatriation camp, the released men applaud a "welcome home" speech by west German Vice Chancellor Franz Bluecher. A total of 9, 626 POW's are to be repatriated from Russia under the German-Soviet agreement, signed in Moscow by West Germany's Chancelor Adenauer and Russia's Premier Bulganin.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1295303INP.jpg?size=67&uid={527845d9-8312-4691-9439-9a32ac441cde}

October 1955: Erich Hartmann (R), greatest fighter ace of all time, upon his return after 10 1/2 years hard labor in Russia as he is greeted by former Major Hans Hahn, the former Commander of the 54th fighter Wing of the German Air Force, with which Hartmann last flew.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1345989INP.jpg?size=67&uid={eaca38f8-9441-4c3f-8800-490e27b572ec}

June 20, 1957 : Adenauer Addresses Thousands of Ex POWs. Frankurt, West Germany. More than 150,000 former prisoners of war are shown massed on the fair grounds in Frankfurt, Germany to hear West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer. The chancellor called on Soviet Russia to fulfill its promise to return all Germans still held in Russia. Dr. Adenauer is shown back to camera during his speech.

[hank]

Nazi's deported millions of soviet citizens (mostly slavs) into germany as slave labor - Soviets did no such thing to german population after the war.

Hitler's goal was to eliminate jews, gypsies and slavs... Well, few slavs were permited to be kept alive as slave labor. Also on extermination list - mentally ill and handicapped.

2/3 of the Soviet casualties during WWII were among civilian population, that's not including partisans.

Out of some odd 80,000 german prisoners taken at Stalingrad - 5,000 returned home alive. True. However - they were returned to germany almost right after the war, the germans who surrendered in '45 returned to germany in early 50's, not those surrendered at Stalingrad. The Axis soldiers who marched into captivity in 1942 were already famished and diseased from months of starvation at the hands of their own officers - out of 90 odd german high ranking officers only 5 did not survive captivity. In 1942, soviets had higher priorities than trying to resuscitate tens of thousands of axis prisoners, not to mention rumanian and hungarian troops were in a far worse shape.

Most of POW's died due to poor nutrition and hard labor. Hard Labor - rebuilding the country's infrastructure they destroyed; poor nutrition - soviet civilians' food allowance was not much better for years after the war (once again, thanks to 4 years of scorched earth). Sounds like poetic justice to me.

Being a POW is not a gurantee of survival, even if POWs are treated in accordance with Geneva Convention. German POW's were receiving far better rations in US captivity - however, tens of thousands of germans never returned home (thus, creating vast Eisenhower Holocaust Conspiracy theory).

All this is well and good but many Communists, either Russian Communists or Communists from other occupied countries did die in German concentration camps. Check it out. Buchenwald I know for sure involved the internment and extermination of Communists from Russia and other countries. As for numbers, I'd have to look it up.

It is no coincidence that Hitler invaded Russia, he hated Communists as much as any group he targeted. I don't agree with a lot of the crap posted here today, but please look up this point if you don't believe me, killing Communists was certainly part of Hitler's "final solution".

hank

[StukaJr]

Nazi's deported millions of soviet citizens (mostly slavs) into germany as slave labor - Soviets did no such thing to german population after the war.

Hitler's goal was to eliminate jews, gypsies and slavs... Well, few slavs were permited to be kept alive as slave labor. Also on extermination list - mentally ill and handicapped.

2/3 of the Soviet casualties during WWII were among civilian population, that's not including partisans.

Out of some odd 80,000 german prisoners taken at Stalingrad - 5,000 returned home alive. True. However - they were returned to germany almost right after the war, the germans who surrendered in '45 returned to germany in early 50's, not those surrendered at Stalingrad. The Axis soldiers who marched into captivity in 1942 were already famished and diseased from months of starvation at the hands of their own officers - out of 90 odd german high ranking officers only 5 did not survive captivity. In 1942, soviets had higher priorities than trying to resuscitate tens of thousands of axis prisoners, not to mention rumanian and hungarian troops were in a far worse shape.

Most of POW's died due to poor nutrition and hard labor. Hard Labor - rebuilding the country's infrastructure they destroyed; poor nutrition - soviet civilians' food allowance was not much better for years after the war (once again, thanks to 4 years of scorched earth). Sounds like poetic justice to me.

Being a POW is not a gurantee of survival, even if POWs are treated in accordance with Geneva Convention. German POW's were receiving far better rations in US captivity - however, tens of thousands of germans never returned home (thus, creating vast Eisenhower Holocaust Conspiracy theory).

All this is well and good but many Communists, either Russian Communists or Communists from other occupied countries did die in German concentration camps. Check it out. Buchenwald I know for sure involved the internment and extermination of Communists from Russia and other countries. As for numbers, I'd have to look it up.

It is no coincidence that Hitler invaded Russia, he hated Communists as much as any group he targeted. I don't agree with a lot of the crap posted here today, but please look up this point if you don't believe me, killing Communists was certainly part of Hitler's "final solution".

hank

Hitler hated about everybody and obviously - communists included. However, his idea of the "liebensraum" and part extermination/part enslavement of the slavic race did not stop with extermination of communism... Russia was communist for less than 20 years at the time the "sub-human" race theory was formulated.

The whole concept of the "Patriotic War" would not have developed without germans beginning to commit murderous atrosities in the occupied territory - starting with Western Ukraine, predominantly anti-communist, old "white" guard and cossack population. The "Patriotic War" slogan was not coined by propaganda machine as widely believed, but was more of an echo to the outcry from the attrocities being commited.

Also, I'm somewhat confused... is being communist/socialist belief marks one for extermination, or simply residing in socialist country will do? :|

[StukaJr]

For centuries Russia drew nourishment from this Germanic nucleus of its upper leading strata. Today it can be regarded as almost totally exterminated and extinguished. It has been replaced by the Jew. Impossible as it is for the Russian by himself to shake off the yoke of the Jew by his own resources, it is equally impossible for the Jew to maintain the mighty empire forever. He himself is no element of organization, but a ferment of decomposition. The Persian empire in the east is ripe for collapse. And the end of Jewish rule in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state.
--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Good excuse for wanting some fresh real estate and slave labor

[Zapp Brannigan]

Hitler hated about everybody and obviously - communists included. However, his idea of the "liebensraum" and part extermination/part enslavement of the slavic race did not stop with extermination of communism... Russia was communist for less than 20 years at the time the "sub-human" race theory was formulated.

Also, I'm somewhat confused... is being communist/socialist belief marks one for extermination, or simply residing in socialist country will do? :|Lebensraum, "living space". Liebensraum would be "love space".

[hank]

I don't know how I can be more clear than I have been. If you were Communist and the German Army occupied your country you were subject to internment and/or extermination.

Hitler interned and exterminated German as well as Non-German Communists at Buchenwald. At the camp there is a huge monument to a certain German and I do not remember his name who died in the camp. He was there because he was interned with the Gypsies and the Communist POWs and the Jews that were also in the camp. All these distinct groups were treated the same in Buchenwald. Worked nearly to death, gassed and burned in the ovens. If you don't believe me go there and see the museum.

I don't know about the socialists. I rather doubt that Hitler had much against socialists as NAZI = National Socialist party. You may have a point there I don't know.

But be very clear. Hitler wanted to rid the world of communists. He blamed them, much as he did the Jews, for the demise of Germany during/after WWI.

I never said that "liebensraum" involved extermination of only slavs or only communists. The two ideas are mutually exclusive. Had the German Army never invaded a single country, Hitler would have interned German Jews, Communists, Mentally ill, and Gypsies in Germany. When he invaded to the East for liebensraum he simply applied the principle to the newly conquered peoples. Quite simply Hitler would have killed Communists and Jews reagardless of the implementation of "liebendsraum". The fact that invading the communist and non-communist countries to Germany's East simply increased the opportunity, not created the idea.

Here is a quote from a site about the German Communist I could not remember, "Also in 1944, a "special compound" for prominent German political prisoners was established near the camp administration building in Buchenwald. Ernst Thaelmann, chairman of the Communist Party of Germany before Hitler's rise to power in 1933, was murdered there in August 1944. "

Hope this helps.

hank

[ArmedPacifist]

Hitler did not hate Russians, he hated Communists.

If you check it out, Hitler authorized the creation of a Russian Army unit, comprised of captured Russian soldiers. Fight or die. 800,000 chose the first, they were later captured and murdered.

[StukaJr]

Hitler hated about everybody and obviously - communists included. However, his idea of the "liebensraum" and part extermination/part enslavement of the slavic race did not stop with extermination of communism... Russia was communist for less than 20 years at the time the "sub-human" race theory was formulated.

Also, I'm somewhat confused... is being communist/socialist belief marks one for extermination, or simply residing in socialist country will do? :|Lebensraum, "living space". Liebensraum would be "love space".

Oooopppsss... :oops: I'm sure it was a bit of both though

But if Hitler did not hate russians - where does sub-human terminology comes from??? From sheer love??? Jeez, you guys - I give up!

[ArmedPacifist]

if he hated them he would not have authorized the creation of the unit.

[hank]

Hitler did not hate Russians, he hated Communists.

If you check it out, Hitler authorized the creation of a Russian Army unit, comprised of captured Russian soldiers. Fight or die. 800,000 chose the first, they were later captured and murdered.

The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles, Swedes, French, Russians, Ukranians - all this is true.

I don't imagine this comment was directed at me, but I don't think that Hitler had Russians, not wanted to exterminate them. Hitler did hate Communists and held them in the same regard as Jews. Eliminating Communism from Europe was part of Hitler's agenda. I can't believe we still have to have this dicsussion. Wanting room for German expansion is simply not related to the extermination of Communists carried out in the camps. They ideas are certainly related but not dependent on each other. Hitler killed Communists wherever he found them. German, non-German, as well as Russian Communists all suffered in German camps and burned in the ovens.

Sorry to be this direct, but its important that we not forget what Hitelr did. He killed Jews, yes. That is awful. But we should not fall into the trap of believing that only Jew suffered.

hank

[StukaJr]

Aimed at ArmedPacifist's comment:


I think somebody confused and it's not me... I've never seen such misconseption - Hitler did not hate russians... That's my que to stop this "inteligent" conversation...

Exits stage left

P.S. But do look up Lebensraum and see the position that Slavs would hold there. Do look up export figures of grain from Ukraine - high enough to institute famine and death of majority of population.

[ArmedPacifist]

I think your que to exit is when you showed up.

Look at the evidence.

[hank]

Hitler hated about everybody and obviously - communists included. However, his idea of the "liebensraum" and part extermination/part enslavement of the slavic race did not stop with extermination of communism... Russia was communist for less than 20 years at the time the "sub-human" race theory was formulated.

Also, I'm somewhat confused... is being communist/socialist belief marks one for extermination, or simply residing in socialist country will do? :|Lebensraum, "living space". Liebensraum would be "love space".

Oooopppsss... :oops: I'm sure it was a bit of both though

But if Hitler did not hate russians - where does sub-human terminology comes from??? From sheer love??? Jeez, you guys - I give up!

The sub-human idea dealt with how he regarded their "right" to freedom as it were. It was never part of the plan for Hitler to kill all slavs as he planned to kill all Jews and Communists. Hitler simply viewd them as less deserving of autonomy and therefore felt justified in interning them and "using" them for the greater good of Germany. Jews on the other hand, he killed regardless. He would work them if he could, but the end game was alwasys to exterminate them. With Russians and slavs, and poles for that matter, Hitler simply wanted them to be subservient and to work for the benefit of "true" Germans.

Do you see the difference?

Jews and Communists were a danger to the Reich and must be killed. The untermensch were only a threat if left to their own devises. Hitler propsed to control them and work them hard but not necessarily exterminate them. Very different concepts.

hank

[hank]

Aimed at ArmedPacifist's comment:


I think somebody confused and it's not me... I've never seen such misconseption - Hitler did not hate russians... That's my que to stop this "inteligent" conversation...

Exits stage left

P.S. But do look up Lebensraum and see the position that Slavs would hold there. Do look up export figures of grain from Ukraine - high enough to institute famine and death of majority of population.

Again, you're gone now so cant help you but maybe other uninformed will learn. There is a huge difference between depleteing the resources of the Ukraine at the risk of famine and rounding everybody up and shooting them or taking them to a camp. That is the key. Ukranians were not on the "list" just as teh Russians wer not. These groups, if they did not resist were left as they were found, except that Germany would take whatever they wanted.

Here is the key difference.

Communists found in the Ukraine [or elsewhere], however, were deported and/or interned at camps throughout Eastern Europe and Germany.

I know this is tough, but if you think it out ti will come to you.

Think about it. If a German citizen was of Ukranian or Russian descent he was still a German and likely not in danger. A German Jew or a German Communist however, was subject to internment from the very beginning. Ukranians, Slavs, Russians were less humans, but not on the list to be exterminated. Jews, Communists, Mentall Ill, Gypsies - all on the list and were to be exterminated.

hank

[bas]

He still considered them to be sub-human, and to think that way of your fellow man is to hate him. The nazi's (note nazi not Germans) had nothing but contempt for the Slavic people and treated them accordingly.

Yes the nazi's were brutal all over Europe, but nowhere were they as brutal as in the East all because of Hitler's views (passed on to the SS by Himmler) that the Slavs are a sub-human people.

[RomanS]

It's nice to see you haven't grown up one bit in the few months I was away. You might as well have said "boys will be boys" for all the weight of moral authority you bring.

away?

what, were you banned?Banned? That's funny. The main problem with this site is that while many of the moderators do yeoman-like work, it does not do enough to get rid of trolls and hate-mongers of all nationalities. You certainly fit that latter category, though on previous occasions even I had come to your defense since at least you weren't ZAV on some topics.

I am (or was) Dave the Dawg. I had a lost e-mail address for my old account. I also have a life, and don't bother with this site too much.

And you are an unworthy debate partner. You want an excuse to be a savage, that's your problem. Don't drag an entire people into your self-imposed swamp.

For the rest of you, since this is supposed to be a photo thread (though it seems to have lost that some time back), below are some photos of Soviet POWs. Also, for those who are interested, the German-Russian Museum in Berlin had an exhibition of photos of POWs a few years back, entitled "Beutestücke. Kriegsgefangene in der deutschen und sowjetischen Fotografie". The exhibition traveled to Moscow last year and should still be there.

I would also recommend looking through the Russian Archives online exhibition on World War Two. Some great pictures of the Red Army in battle and in victory, as well as some moving pictures of suffering inflicted by the Nazis: http://victory.rusarchives.ru/catalogue/index.php

A series of small pictures from the Simon Wiesenthal Center of Soviet POWs (some graphic content): http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/albums/palbum/p03/a0176p3.html

http://www.moosburg.org/info/stalag/bilder/sowjet2.jpg
http://www.moosburg.org/info/stalag/bilder/sowjet3.jpg
http://www.moosburg.org/info/stalag/bilder/sowjet4.jpg
http://www.moosburg.org/info/stalag/bilder/sowjet5.jpg

Soviet POWs used as forced labor in Norway:
http://www.museumsnett.no/saltdalmuseum/Saltdal%20museum/Blodveimuseet/foto/1983-75-4.jpg
http://lotus.uib.no/norgeslexi/krigshist/digiokkupasjon/Stokke/images/120.jpg

Memorial to Soviet soldiers who died in Norway (click for larger image):
http://www.skazka.no/vm-photos-copy/a135-35-1.jpg (http://www.vad1.com/photo/stock/a135-35-4.jpg)

A smaller picture of German POWs in the Soviet Union, from the aforementioned museum collection:
http://www.museum-karlshorst.de/html/museum/da/da09b_1gr.jpg


I guess Im just dumb, but can you help me here a little?

What the fuk are you trying to prove to me???????????????

That Nazis were ok, and Soviet people bad

I just dont get it...
tell me

[StukaJr]

Hank:

Well, I can agree with this purely out of hypothetical context:

It's true that immideate death/execution is different than death from starvation/life in slavery. However, if you put these things as perspective for one's future - it's really not all that different, neither future ain't being too bright.

[hank]

Hank:

Well, I can agree with this purely out of hypothetical context:

It's true that immideate death/execution is different than death from starvation/life in slavery. However, if you put these things as perspective for one's future - it's really not all that different, neither future ain't being too bright.

Well, the moving target continues. Where do you stand now? The point to the whole thing was that Hitler wanted to exterminate Communists.

You said:


"Hitler's goal was to eliminate jews, gypsies and slavs... Well, few slavs were permited to be kept alive as slave labor. Also on extermination list - mentally ill and handicapped."

Communists did not get on your list. So I wrote:


"All this is well and good but many Communists, either Russian Communists or Communists from other occupied countries did die in German concentration camps. Check it out. Buchenwald I know for sure involved the internment and extermination of Communists from Russia and other countries. As for numbers, I'd have to look it up."

Notice that I never said a thing about Slavs. Certainly they received horrific treatment and many were interned and/or exterminated. The fact is however, that percentage wise relatively few non-Jew, non-Communist Slavs died b/c they were interned or exterminated. That is a historical fact. Doesn't in any way lessen the horror of what happened and i never insuinuated or said that it did.

You responded:


Hitler hated about everybody and obviously - communists included. However, his idea of the "liebensraum" and part extermination/part enslavement of the slavic race did not stop with extermination of communism... Russia was communist for less than 20 years at the time the "sub-human" race theory was formulated.

Again, not really on point because I have not disagreed about Slav deaths. I'm simply pointing out that to forget that Hitler wanted to rid the world of Communists and Jews is to forget what really happened. Notice I've never taken issue with the idea that Hitler had disdain for and badly treated Slavs or Russians.

I responded:


"Hitler interned and exterminated German as well as Non-German Communists at Buchenwald. At the camp there is a huge monument to a certain German and I do not remember his name who died in the camp. He was there because he was interned with the Gypsies and the Communist POWs and the Jews that were also in the camp. All these distinct groups were treated the same in Buchenwald. Worked nearly to death, gassed and burned in the ovens. If you don't believe me go there and see the museum."

See, thepoint is that here in the West we have often not been reminded how badly the Communists suffered under Hitler's control. In 1992 I was in college when I went to Buchenwald and I was shocked to learn that relatively few Jews died there, it was mostly Communists, Mentally ill, and Gypsies. Why, I don't know. I've alwawsy been a student of history but I was simply not aware. You showed the same unawareness and now I have pointed that out to you. You have shifted positions now several times.

Here it is: Hitler exterminated Communists in the same way he terminated Jews.

hank

[RomanS]

Here it is: Hitler exterminated Communists in the same way he terminated Jews.

and the communists had all the rights in the world to beat the living **** out of Hitler.

And back to the topic, you can see clearly that Hitler did get his ass handed to him.

[ArmedPacifist]

If your talking about a ratio of kills per deaths......the Germans did pretty well....

[RomanS]

If your talking about a ratio of kills per deaths......the Germans did pretty well....

Better equipment at the start of the war
Better training
Suprice attack on Soviet factories (even though Stalin was warned many times)

Nobody says Germans sucked, 5 years against a strong nation is an impressive struggle (in a strategic way)

[hank]

Here it is: Hitler exterminated Communists in the same way he terminated Jews.

and the communists had all the rights in the world to beat the living **** out of Hitler.

And back to the topic, you can see clearly that Hitler did get his ass handed to him.

Relevant to what? You, PermskiiOMON, have to be the dumbest j**k*ss I've ever encountered. I am arguing with a guy named after a plane responsible for killing thousands of Russians that Hitler treated people from your country much worse than the West gives him credit for and you take time out to point this out. You are a genius, you know that. A real f**king genius.

Of course Hitler got his ass handed to him. That does not make Stalin an Angel. It certainly does not justify your country keeping German POWs until 1955 nor occupying the whole of Eastern Europe for around 50 years.

If you pull real hard you miiiigggghht be able to get that ugly, empty melon of yours out of your *ss, and if you need any help I'd be glad to pitch in.

As for beating the crap out of Hitler, seems likely that he beat us all to the punch. The sooner that everybody, eventhe US, admits that we dropped the ball in the 1930's all the way until the end of hte cold war, the better off we'd be. But, if teh majority of your countrymen are anything like you, I certainly understand the whole thing.

Go jump in a lake you numbnuts.

Sorry in advance to the mods, but Permii's punched all my buttons today.

hank

[StukaJr]

Cheereo

[RomanS]

Relevant to what? You, PermskiiOMON, have to be the dumbest j**k*ss I've ever encountered. I am arguing with a guy named after a plane responsible for killing thousands of Russians that Hitler treated people from your country much worse than the West gives him credit for and you take time out to point this out. You are a genius, you know that. A real f**king genius.

yeah Real Dumbass.

this is coming from a guy who lives in US, grew up in US and was educated in US. But the fuked up thing is, you are TRYING TO EDUCATE ME ON MY OWN HISTORY.

Guess what, you cant!

You know why? Because you haven't been to Russia, talked to WW2 veterans, seen the places where the battles happened, or even visited a single WW2 museum in Russia.

I've graduated from Russian school, and learned my history there.
I've seen your highschool history book here. You should know how much they talk about Eastern Front. A lot of information there... yeah

Just stop now...


Of course Hitler got his ass handed to him. That does not make Stalin an Angel. It certainly does not justify your country keeping German POWs until 1955 nor occupying the whole of Eastern Europe for around 50 years.

Who said Staline was? See that SEARCH button up on top? Try searching
PERMSKIIOMON - STALIN ANGEL

I don't know who Stalin was, I didnt exist back than. I only hear the horrible things, and I guess I have to trust them.

But who the fuk are you to decide how long should the Soviet Union keep the prisioners for? You are talking about justice? Were you grandparents killed by Hitler's Nazi fuks? Did United States loose millions of innocent "Communists" and Jews in the camps?

Go and tell this to the Russian WW2 veterans, I would pay to see it.


If you pull real hard you miiiigggghht be able to get that ugly, empty melon of yours out of your *ss, and if you need any help I'd be glad to pitch in.

What are you trying to explain again? Wait let me help.


http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d53/582.JPG


A column of 57,000 German POWs led through central Moscow on July 17, 1944.

by 3RAR


feel sorry for the German prisoners....Imagine being a prisoner in Russia during ww2!



my responce


2 words


Village "BABIY YAR"


What do you expect from us Russians? Germans come in, slaughter our people, and expect to be treated with respect.

I say fuk this, eye for an eye.

LONG LIVE RUSSIA

and all that time some dumb fuk tries to prove me wrong, by saying something about Russians shouldn't have treated Nazi POWs like ****.

Yet nobody wants to investigate the 4 years of slaughter of Russians.

Again, what are you trying to prove to me???



As for beating the crap out of Hitler, seems likely that he beat us all to the punch. The sooner that everybody, eventhe US, admits that we dropped the ball in the 1930's all the way until the end of hte cold war, the better off we'd be. But, if teh majority of your countrymen are anything like you, I certainly understand the whole thing.


ENGLISH PLEASE


Go jump in a lake you numbnuts.

Sorry in advance to the mods, but Permii's punched all my buttons today.


No, I think its you who needs to calm down. I just answer in the same way , to the way I was asked.

[Kilgor]

If your talking about a ratio of kills per deaths......the Germans did pretty well....

Better equipment at the start of the war
Better training
Suprice attack on Soviet factories (even though Stalin was warned many times)



You can also thank Stalin for a massive purge of the red army, VVS, navy and god knows what else. Tens of thousands of High ranking officers purge which cut the head off a decent army and left its ass crippled.
Then the introduction of the terrible comisars who made the situation even worse.

I think stalin was probably a worse dicator that hitler was. Starved, purged, murdered 10-20+ million people, left a army crippled and hopelessly ill prepared against invasion, which lead to the slaugher of even more of his people.

Russia is a big place, im sure you could hide a massive amount of bodies out there in the siberian wastes. A trip to one of those work camps was a death sentance.

[hank]

This conversation can continue when you learn to argue like an adult - but you gotta listen for that "Pop!" That's the sound your head will make, when it will finally exit your ass.

Until then - cheerio!

Yeah well, all that may be true, but you made a mistake and couldn't admit it. Communists were targeted and when I pointed it out you changed your position about three times and then left. If that is what you want to do so be it. You still have not addressed any of the points I made and you are still way off about Hitler's intentions towards communists.

I'll be around.

None of my comments to Permii were directed towards you, sorry if it seemed that way. Permii can't act like an adult so I do not feel obliged to reciprocate. As for my responses to you, I don't really see your point. It might help if you actually read what I wrote, because your responses make it seem like you skipped a lot.

hank

[Thor]

and you can't do a JACK **** about it
..I could of course buy your mum for $5 and then losing your only provider would force you to drink even cheaper vodka that would make you go blind.



Better equipment at the start of the war
Better training
Suprice attack on Soviet factories (even though Stalin was warned many times)

Then how about Finland 1939-40? The soviets greatly outnumbered the finns and also the soviets had great equipment and training compared to the finns. In that war there were 5 dead russians for every dead finn. And the saying was that on the battlefield one fighting finn was worth 10 russian soldiers.

I’d say russians simply are not that great fighters.



The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles, Swedes, French, Russians, Ukranians - all this is true.
Germany did not invade Sweden. For the record Sweden is one of the oldest countries in the world and has never been occupied or under foreign rule.

[hank]

The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles, Swedes, French, Russians, Ukranians - all this is true.
Germany did not invade Sweden. For the record Sweden is one of the oldest countries in the world and has never been occupied or under foreign rule.

Point taken, I did not mean they invaded Sweden, rather that Hitler allowed Swedish volunteers to fight for the German Army.

hank

[RomanS]

and you can't do a JACK **** about it
..I could of course buy your mum for $5 and then losing your only provider would force you to drink even cheaper vodka that would make you go blind.



Better equipment at the start of the war
Better training
Suprice attack on Soviet factories (even though Stalin was warned many times)

Then how about Finland 1939-40? The soviets greatly outnumbered the finns and also the soviets had great equipment and training compared to the finns. In that war there were 5 dead russians for every dead finn. And the saying was that on the battlefield one fighting finn was worth 10 russian soldiers.

I’d say russians simply are not that great fighters.



The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles, Swedes, French, Russians, Ukranians - all this is true.
Germany did not invade Sweden. For the record Sweden is one of the oldest countries in the world and has never been occupied or under foreign rule.

oh my god, NO

not this Scandinavian **** again ...

[StukaJr]

Is there an end to general misconseption and f#$king make belief?

It's obvious that stalinist purges were responcible for a lot that has happened, but can they not be used as a plug for anything and everything?

How about giving Blietzkrieg and new tactics some due...

[hank]

I'm really at a loss. Permii you are just too stupid to get it. It is really unbelieveable. You are so dumb you can't even figure out when someone is arguing on the same side of an issue as you.

Line up all the GD Soviet veterans you want and I'll tell them all the same thing. Thanks for the struggle and for defeating Hitler, but your country was wrong to keep POWs for that long and to occupy Eastern Europe.

If you can't admit those things then you are simply in denial.

hank

[hank]

Is there an end to general misconseption and f#$king make belief?

It's obvious that stalinist purges were responcible for a lot that has happened, but can they not be used as a plug for anything and everything?

How about giving Blietzkrieg and new tactics some due...

WTF are you talking about?

hank

[RomanS]

I'm really at a loss. Permii you are just too stupid to get it. It is really unbelieveable. You are so dumb you can't even figure out when someone is arguing on the same side of an issue as you.

Line up all the GD Soviet veterans you want and I'll tell them all the same thing. Thanks for the struggle and for defeating Hitler, but your country was wrong to keep POWs for that long and to occupy Eastern Europe.

If you can't admit those things then you are simply in denial.

hank

Hank, Occupation of Eastern Europe is not even near this TOPIC.

I also think Nazi POWs should of took part on helping rebuilding the towns, and cities that they destroyed in Soviet Union. Killing them all is wrong. I never said it was right.

But the rough treatment not always means "execution". Actually I must say the 5000 pows are lucky to be alive.

Maybe we should seriously end this now. Believe me, my Russian brothers here will not give up this argument untill this topic is either locked, or someone gets banned.

We grew up knowing what NAZIs did in our homeland, and not knowing much what our comrades did in theirs (after the WW2)

So good luck trying to prove us that Russians did wrong to hold the Nazis for that long.

[hank]

Hank, Occupation of Eastern Europe is not even near this TOPIC.

I also think Nazi POWs should of took part on helping rebuilding the towns, and cities that they destroyed in Soviet Union. Killing them all is wrong. I never said it was right.

But the rough treatment not always means "execution". Actually I must say the 5000 pows are lucky to be alive.

Maybe we should seriously end this now. Believe me, my Russian brothers here will not give up this argument untill this topic is either locked, or someone gets banned.

We grew up knowing what NAZIs did in our homeland, and not knowing much what our comrades did in theirs (after the WW2)

So good luck trying to prove us that Russians did wrong to hold the Nazis for that long.

Permii, do you even read? I just responded to what you wrote. Maybe its just your crappy English skills that mess up every conversation you are in, I don't know.

Where are your Russian brothers? Its just you and me and your being stupid. You have not responded to anything I've said. Every time I post something you totally misinterpret it and change the subject.

What part of this do you not understand? Russians and most specifically Russian communists were treated very badly by Hitler. That treatment does not justify what Stalin and his successors did to German POWs. Its just that simple.

Someone else mentioned the Eastern Eurpoean occupation, I added it as an aside. The logic, however, is equally applicable. Nothing that happened in WWII justifies forcing Eastern European countries to live under communist regimes, just as nothing the German Army did in WWII justifies keeping POWs for 10 years.

Ask yourself this: how do you feel about the way Afghans mistreated Soviet POWs. If you answer in the negative then your arguments are hypocritical. It is just that simple. I doubt you are capable of making the connection, but please try.

If you want me to help you with reading comprehension, I'd be happy to.

hank

[Kilgor]

WW2 on the eastern front. Swapping one dictatorship for another.

History is written by the victors though, thats why stalin gets off so lightly.

Agree with your comment about that though hank

[Russian Texan]

Damn, stupid business meetings, I have missed such pissingly interesting exchange of brainfarts camouflaged as thoughts... what a downer :(

Seven pages later, and I still don't get it, what's the point everyone is trying to make?

Did Hitler wanted to exterminate Russians - well, duh... if you still don't get it - you have a problem with reality, really...

Did Germans torture and make experiments on their POWs - I think you know the answer...

Did Russians torture and experiment on German POWs - NO, they simply worked them to death in labor camps, but find me a single document mentioning Soviets using gas chambers and stuff like that, I bet your ass you can't...

People, you seem to be forgetting that Germany attacked USSR on a Sunday morning at 4:00am, German troops killed, torchured, mutilated and raped countless millions of soviet civilians... Do you ralize that there weren't a single family in USSR that was not affected by war in one way or another?

So what do you expect soviet soldiers, after all that, to do - forgive and forget?
Why do you think Germans were so eager to surrender and offered almost no resistance on the western front? because they knew that revenge, big time revenge, was comming from the East, and they were scared ****less...

And tell me, what is wrong with labor camps? I think it is a very logical choice/decision: people who devasted the country - helped to re-build it, sounds justified to me...

And for those who do not agree - F*** you and yo mommas big time, my grandfather ended war in Berlin as a Lt. Colonel of the Red Army.

P.S. he even peed on the Reichstag, my grandma told me.

[RomanS]

Hank, Occupation of Eastern Europe is not even near this TOPIC.

I also think Nazi POWs should of took part on helping rebuilding the towns, and cities that they destroyed in Soviet Union. Killing them all is wrong. I never said it was right.

But the rough treatment not always means "execution". Actually I must say the 5000 pows are lucky to be alive.

Maybe we should seriously end this now. Believe me, my Russian brothers here will not give up this argument untill this topic is either locked, or someone gets banned.

We grew up knowing what NAZIs did in our homeland, and not knowing much what our comrades did in theirs (after the WW2)

So good luck trying to prove us that Russians did wrong to hold the Nazis for that long.

Permii, do you even read? I just responded to what you wrote. Maybe its just your crappy English skills that mess up every conversation you are in, I don't know.

Where are your Russian brothers? Its just you and me and your being stupid. You have not responded to anything I've said. Every time I post something you totally misinterpret it and change the subject.

What part of this do you not understand? Russians and most specifically Russian communists were treated very badly by Hitler. That treatment does not justify what Stalin and his successors did to German POWs. Its just that simple.

Someone else mentioned the Eastern Eurpoean occupation, I added it as an aside. The logic, however, is equally applicable. Nothing that happened in WWII justifies forcing Eastern European countries to live under communist regimes, just as nothing the German Army did in WWII justifies keeping POWs for 10 years.

Ask yourself this: how do you feel about the way Afghans mistreated Soviet POWs. If you answer in the negative then your arguments are hypocritical. It is just that simple. I doubt you are capable of making the connection, but please try.

If you want me to help you with reading comprehension, I'd be happy to.

hank

hank,
points taken

I just misunderstood you!

[hank]

Why do you think Germans were so eager to surrender and offered almost no resistance on the western front? because they knew that revenge, big time revenge, was comming from the East, and they were scared ****less...

Are you serious?

The only thing I regret about the whole thing is how ungrateful you ended up being. We sold you and the Brits tanks, planes, ships, food, invaded North Africa, invaded Europe twice, kicked the Japanese in the ass all the while, never got a single penny from USSR and this is the thanks we get from you. Your ungratefulness is never ending and exceeded only by you inability to respond to the points being made. Maybe isolationaism was the better strategy.

This conversation is over because you and Permii aren't capable of acknowledging any rational thoughts. I have not once said that anythingthe Germans did was right, justified, or even understandable. Your position, along with Permii, is that its OK for your country to keep POWs for 10 years after a war you won. It is beyond comprehension.

hank

[hank]

Hank, Occupation of Eastern Europe is not even near this TOPIC.

I also think Nazi POWs should of took part on helping rebuilding the towns, and cities that they destroyed in Soviet Union. Killing them all is wrong. I never said it was right.

But the rough treatment not always means "execution". Actually I must say the 5000 pows are lucky to be alive.

Maybe we should seriously end this now. Believe me, my Russian brothers here will not give up this argument untill this topic is either locked, or someone gets banned.

We grew up knowing what NAZIs did in our homeland, and not knowing much what our comrades did in theirs (after the WW2)

So good luck trying to prove us that Russians did wrong to hold the Nazis for that long.

Permii, do you even read? I just responded to what you wrote. Maybe its just your crappy English skills that mess up every conversation you are in, I don't know.

Where are your Russian brothers? Its just you and me and your being stupid. You have not responded to anything I've said. Every time I post something you totally misinterpret it and change the subject.

What part of this do you not understand? Russians and most specifically Russian communists were treated very badly by Hitler. That treatment does not justify what Stalin and his successors did to German POWs. Its just that simple.

Someone else mentioned the Eastern Eurpoean occupation, I added it as an aside. The logic, however, is equally applicable. Nothing that happened in WWII justifies forcing Eastern European countries to live under communist regimes, just as nothing the German Army did in WWII justifies keeping POWs for 10 years.

Ask yourself this: how do you feel about the way Afghans mistreated Soviet POWs. If you answer in the negative then your arguments are hypocritical. It is just that simple. I doubt you are capable of making the connection, but please try.

If you want me to help you with reading comprehension, I'd be happy to.

hank

hank,
points taken

I just misunderstood you!

Apology not accepted moron.

hank

[CRAZY MERC]

Hank.
Your knowledge of European history, I am guessing, is based on comics you've read as a child. Please stop arguing about something you have no clue. And don't be rude.

[hank]

Hank.
Your knowledge of European history, I am guessing, is based on comics you've read as a child. Please stop arguing about something you have no clue. And don't be rude.

Enlighten me then. My comic subscriptions ran out.

hank

[ArmedPacifist]

.

Apology not accepted moron.

hank


rofl rofl


Hank I agree with everything you said.

[hank]

.

Apology not accepted moron.

hank


rofl rofl


Hank I agree with everything you said.

I am not sure that is such a good thing, comic books can be very unreliable. :D I guess a bachelor's degree and a master's degree with lots of hours in history, along with a trip to Eastern Europe in 1992, plus tons of reading outside of school can't match up to these mental geniuses.

hank

[Russian Texan]

Are you serious?
You bet yo mommas ass I am.

The only thing I regret about the whole thing is how ungrateful you ended up being.
I should be grateful for what????

We sold you and the Brits tanks, planes, ships, food,
never got a single penny from USSR
isn't it a contradiction?

invaded North Africa
So?

, invaded Europe twice,
So?

kicked the Japanese in the ass
So did USSR, big time in 1939 but I guess they didn't mention this in your comic books

all the while, never got a single penny from USSR and this is the thanks we get from you.
Thanks for what? For opening 2nd front in Europe when the outcome was clear and 2 years later than USSR asked for it? Darling, Germany lost 85-90% of it's man power on the Eastern front, you should be thanking my grandpa

Maybe isolationaism was the better strategy.
Absolutely agree, try to apply it in the modern world.

This conversation is over because you and Permii aren't capable of acknowledging any rational thoughts.
Would these be any thoughts expressed by you?

I have not once said that anythingthe Germans did was right, justified, or even understandable.
Who said I was talking to you?

It is beyond comprehension.
Yours, make a note - your comprehention.hank

[ArmedPacifist]

.

Apology not accepted moron.

hank


rofl rofl


Hank I agree with everything you said.

I am not sure that is such a good thing, comic books can be very unreliable. :D I guess a bachelor's degree and a master's degree with lots of hours in history, along with a trip to Eastern Europe in 1992, plus tons of reading outside of school can't match up to these mental geniuses.

hank

Batman hasn't done me wrong yet.

[hank]

Are you serious?
You bet yo mommas ass I am.

The only thing I regret about the whole thing is how ungrateful you ended up being.
I should be grateful for what????

We sold you and the Brits tanks, planes, ships, food,
never got a single penny from USSR
isn't it a contradiction?

invaded North Africa
So?

, invaded Europe twice,
So?

kicked the Japanese in the ass
So did USSR, big time in 1939 but I guess they didn't mention this in your comic books

all the while, never got a single penny from USSR and this is the thanks we get from you.
Thanks for what? For opening 2nd front in Europe when the outcome was clear and 2 years later than USSR asked for it? Darling, Germany lost 85-90% of it's man power on the Eastern front, you should be thanking my grandpa

Maybe isolationaism was the better strategy.
Absolutely agree, try to apply it in the modern world.

This conversation is over because you and Permii aren't capable of acknowledging any rational thoughts.
Would these be any thoughts expressed by you?

I have not once said that anythingthe Germans did was right, justified, or even understandable.
Who said I was talking to you?

It is beyond comprehension.
Yours, make a note - your comprehention.hank

You are just as amazing as you were in January, 2004 when you questioned me in this thread http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7988&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=kursk Do you remember this? You accused me in this thread of getting my information from video games and I had to quote a bunch of stuff from history books to set you straight. Do I really need to do it again? I'm not because its obvious that you don't learn.

You must be incapable of comprehending the written word. You gave me this same stupid treatment over Kursk and I set you straight. You have nothing. Go read something, or at least try.

Come up with some objective information that resistance on the Western front was weaker. I bet you can't find one thing. And don't try to come with teh argument that sheer numbers was the reason, because there simply was not the frontage for the numbers capable on the Eastern Front. Also remember that the US was engaged throughout the Pacific the entire time we drove through France.

You quibble over Japan when it is common knolwedge that Roosevelt asked Stalin to help with the Japanese ar Yalta and Stalin refused. I mean for Christ's sake that was on the damned BBC last week.

Do you really mean to say that lend lease did not help your country. Can you really be that stupid? Go look at some numbers. entire Soviet Tank Corps were outfitted with Shermans for God's sake. Stop for one second and think about what you write before you diasagree out of hand.

hank

[ArtofPain]

Just so that everyone knows. It's a war crime to display prisoners as in the first photo.
Thor among meany war crimes commited by all armies in 2 world war this is weeery minor. Your statment is pure flame bait.
Permski cool down and admit that russian comunist goverment threated ppl(not only POWs) in horible way (like gulags, bulding canal wolga-don) its truth and deal with that. No nation is without faults americans, brits, french, germans, poles, ukrainians, russians every one has its black pages in history.
Good words dude! It was 60 years ago brother of grandpa was a POW in 1941 (he was lucky enough to escape in 1942) and I know some things from firsthand! But this not bother me to give hand to German people! (Not on the battlefield of course! ;) :lol: )

[Russian Texan]

Hank, you haven't answered any of my questions, why?


I'm not because its obvious that you don't learn.
Oh, trust me I do, but not from comic books and "experts";)



You gave me this same stupid treatment over Kursk and I set you straight
????????? Wtf are you talking about? Seeing visions, hearing voices?


Come up with some objective information that resistance on the Western front was weaker rofl rofl rofl
Dude, I am not even going to answer that, there is being ridiculous and there is being you...


You quibble over Japan
Actually you are the one who brought it up, I just pointed that USSR engaged and defeated Japan in the summer of 1939, obviously this fact was unknown to you.


Roosevelt asked Stalin to help with the Japanese ar Yalta and Stalin refused
Are you sure about that?

The USSR weren't able to enter the war against Japan soon because of the treaty of non-aggression signed by the two countries in April 1941 and for a duration of 5 years. But at the Yalta conference, Staline promessed to Roosevelt that his country would declare war to Japan 3 months after the end of the war in Europe. April 2nd 1945 Molotov tells the japanese diplomate Naotake Sato that the treaty of neutrality is canceled.

Until the end of the war in Europe only the Siberian army (40 divisions) was facing the japanese army (500 000 soldiers) of general Yamada stationed in Mandchouria. But Deutchland is crushed and thus Staline makes many troops movements by train and soon 1 500 000 soldiers and 5 500 tanks positioned on three fronts are ready to attack Mandchouria, all these forces are under the orders of marshal Vassilievsky.

The soviet tactic is that a first group of 4 armies (marshal Malinovsky) will attack East toward Kharbine and Moukden. A second group of 2 armies (general Pourkaiev) will attack South beside the river Tsoungari. The third group of 3 armies and one tank corps (marshal Meretzkov) will start at Vladivostok and attack West toward Kharbine. So about 60 soviet divisions will fight the 24 japanese divisions. To complement the attack the soviet Pacific fleet led by admiral Ioumachev and the 16th army will conquer the Kouriles and the South part of the Sakaline.

August 8th the diplomate Sato is told by Molotov that the USSR are now in war with Japan. The next morning the attack is launched and in 8 days 400km are conquered and so on August 16th the soviet army meet the chinese army. On August 23rd Port Arthur (conquered by the Japaneses in the 1904-1905 war) is reconquered by the Soviets.

The cease-fire had been asked to the Japaneses on August 18th. All the soviet objectives are met, 500 000 Japaneses are captured, the Soviets bring back home the factories of Mandchouria, like they did in Germany. On September 2nd lieutnant-general K. Deremyanko signs the official capitulation of Japan.



Do you really mean to say that lend lease did not help your country
Where did I say that?


entire Soviet Tank Corps were outfitted with Shermans for God's sake
For the sake of the argument, how many Shermans were supplied to Russia and how many tanks total there were in the Soviet Tank Corp?
C'mon show us that your
trip to Eastern Europe in 1992, plus tons of reading outside of school didn't go wasted :roll:

Hank, you are good at one thing - blowing hot air. Lots of emotions with zero knowledge, go to bed, I am.

[hank]

Maybe it is all of you Russians. Art of Pain - nobody here is saying that Russians did not suffer at the hands of the Germans. For Christs sake we all agree to that. Those war crimes, however, don't justify more war crimes.

I am sure taht your relatives suffered greatly and that is indeed a horrible tragedy. I have often thought of the horrors that innocent Russians suffered during those years. Must have been hell and there are no excuses. But the relevant question is this: How does that affect the fact the USSR kept some Germans prisoner until the mid-1950's?

Answer this question with something more than "eye for eye". How does mistreating Germans ten years later change what happened to your grandfather. Is his suffering any less because a German, not personally responsible mind you, suffered more?

Somebody please help me be more clear on this. Its not a hard concept.

hank

[memphiz]

Crazy Russians :roll:

[ArmedPacifist]

Must be Russian Americans drinking night.

*This statement is true any day of the week*

[memphiz]

Must be Russian Americans drinking night.

*This statement is true any day of the week*
Haha oh yeah, except them being Russian they're to good for real alcohol so they resort to listerine and rubbing alcohol

[hank]

Russian Texan, did you read any of it? Obviously not. The Kursk debate is exactly the same. I will look up the numbers on Lendlease and a Soviet WWII tank corps if you need me to. There will be lots of big words in those books and I know they are tough on you.

For Christ's sake I posted a GD link to our Kursk discussion. Can't read AND can't work a friggin' mouse. You have serious deficiencies.

When was VE day? When was VJ day? Did Stalin make good? Guess not.
May 1945 = VE day and August 1945 = VJ day. Do the math.

Here is what you said in regards to Lendlease:


Thanks for what? For opening 2nd front in Europe when the outcome was clear and 2 years later than USSR asked for it? Darling, Germany lost 85-90% of it's man power on the Eastern front, you should be thanking my grandpa

WTF are you talking about?

Kicked the Japanese in the ass in 1939. Good job, cause the Japs sure didn't have any luck in China or South Pacific after hte shellacking you gave them. Good point.

For the rest of you who don't remember RT's BS, read the Kursk thread.

hank

[Fintin]

hank...wanna invade russia?....memph has out backs

[RomanS]

Hank, Occupation of Eastern Europe is not even near this TOPIC.

I also think Nazi POWs should of took part on helping rebuilding the towns, and cities that they destroyed in Soviet Union. Killing them all is wrong. I never said it was right.

But the rough treatment not always means "execution". Actually I must say the 5000 pows are lucky to be alive.

Maybe we should seriously end this now. Believe me, my Russian brothers here will not give up this argument untill this topic is either locked, or someone gets banned.

We grew up knowing what NAZIs did in our homeland, and not knowing much what our comrades did in theirs (after the WW2)

So good luck trying to prove us that Russians did wrong to hold the Nazis for that long.

Permii, do you even read? I just responded to what you wrote. Maybe its just your crappy English skills that mess up every conversation you are in, I don't know.

Where are your Russian brothers? Its just you and me and your being stupid. You have not responded to anything I've said. Every time I post something you totally misinterpret it and change the subject.

What part of this do you not understand? Russians and most specifically Russian communists were treated very badly by Hitler. That treatment does not justify what Stalin and his successors did to German POWs. Its just that simple.

Someone else mentioned the Eastern Eurpoean occupation, I added it as an aside. The logic, however, is equally applicable. Nothing that happened in WWII justifies forcing Eastern European countries to live under communist regimes, just as nothing the German Army did in WWII justifies keeping POWs for 10 years.

Ask yourself this: how do you feel about the way Afghans mistreated Soviet POWs. If you answer in the negative then your arguments are hypocritical. It is just that simple. I doubt you are capable of making the connection, but please try.

If you want me to help you with reading comprehension, I'd be happy to.

hank

hank,
points taken

I just misunderstood you!

Apology not accepted moron.

hank

I never appologized you fuk.

I just said I read what you said, and now I clearly understand how fuked up you are.

You not going to win this !

we're might be small in this part of town, but we are together.

Call us crazy Russians, or whatever. . .

I'm proud to be born in one of the greatest nations on the planet EVER.

And always will defend her and those from there.

the 2 headed eagle !!!

[hank]

OK Russian Texan, here are the numbers from a Russian website

October 1941 to June 1942
Aircraft 1285
Tanks 2249
Machine-guns 81287
Explosives, pounds 59455620
Trucks 36825
Field telephones 56445
Telephone wire, km 600000

1942 and 1943
Aircraft 3052
Tanks 4084
Vehicles 520000

For all you liberal arts majors that is 6333 tanks through the end of 1943.


The Red Army received 2007 M4A2s (Sherman) with 75 mm gun and 2095 M4A2 Shermans with 76 mm gun. There were attempts to rearm them with Russian F-34 76.2 mm gun, resulting in so called M4M, but sense there was no shortage of 75 mm ammo only small numbers were so modified. Several Soviet tankers in Shermans won the Hero of Soviet Union. V.A. Galkin of the 7th Guard Cavalry Corp's 31st Tank Regiment. He was in M4A2.

Soviet Tank Corps strength = depending on the year between 150 and 250 tanks. Check this site: http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/rustc.htm

So its a lot more than one Corps, its a whole bunch of them.

hank

[hank]

hank...wanna invade russia?....memph has out backs

Why not, I mean if we don't they just say they won anyway. Then I'll post some facts to back up the fact that they didn't and then they'll make some yo mamma jokes and go to bed. Then Permii will post some pics of a BTR and a bunch of guns. Either way, neither one of them will ever learn to read English.

hank

[RomanS]

hank...wanna invade russia?....memph has out backs

You can't even invade yourself, which you should do. Maybe the good cells in your brain will help the evil ones to throw the BRAIN FARTS OUT.

Come invade us, bring the body bags. Cause you know the evil Russians don't have any for you.

[hank]

I never appologized you fuk.

I just said I read what you said, and now I clearly understand how fuked up you are.

You not going to win this !

we're might be small in this part of town, but we are together.

Call us crazy Russians, or whatever. . .

I'm proud to be born in one of the greatest nations on the planet EVER.

And always will defend her and those from there.

the 2 headed eagle !!!

Win what? For God's sake we agree. I never said anything bad about the stature of your country. I'm not asking you not to defend her. You just don't make any sense.

hank

[bas]

Call us crazy Russians, or whatever. . .

I'm proud to be born in one of the greatest nations on the planet EVER.

And always will defend her and those from there.

the 2 headed eagle !!!

Well said,

from America :cantbeli:

I'm an immagrant, and I'm proud of my new home, inspite of it's flaws. If Russia is so great, why don't you live there?

[Fintin]

hank...wanna invade russia?....memph has out backs

You can't even invade yourself, which you should do. Maybe the good cells in your brain will help the evil ones to throw the BRAIN FARTS OUT.

Come invade us, bring the body bags. Cause you know the evil Russians don't have any for you.

silly internet 'tough' guy...we wouldnt put you in body bags...we would tickle you to death...

[RomanS]

[quote=Fintin]Either way, neither one of them will ever learn to read English.

hank

which is ok, we still have an extra language on our hands that we know since birth.

You're only capable of one. And thats not even yours. Its from a different country.

[ArtofPain]

Maybe it is all of you Russians. Art of Pain - nobody here is saying that Russians did not suffer at the hands of the Germans. For Christs sake we all agree to that. Those war crimes, however, don't justify more war crimes.

I am sure taht your relatives suffered greatly and that is indeed a horrible tragedy. I have often thought of the horrors that innocent Russians suffered during those years. Must have been hell and there are no excuses. But the relevant question is this: How does that affect the fact the USSR kept some Germans prisoner until the mid-1950's?

Answer this question with something more than "eye for eye". How does mistreating Germans ten years later change what happened to your grandfather. Is his suffering any less because a German, not personally responsible mind you, suffered more?

Somebody please help me be more clear on this. Its not a hard concept.

hank
OK I'm answering.
10 years was ordinary prison time for serious crimes in Russia. They (German POW) were judged and get it. Plus many tach specialists worked in Secret RB and plants which were in our jails. And many of them prefer to work in such places than clear "a Siberia out of snow".

[hank]

Well said,

from America :cantbeli:

I'm an immagrant, and I'm proud of my new home, inspite of it's flaws. If Russia is so great, why don't you live there?

This is a great point, one which I'm sure Permii will sidestep as usual.

hank

[Fintin]

Either way, neither one of them will ever learn to read English.

hank

which is ok, we still have an extra language on our hands that we know since birth.

You stock to O N E !

again...silly internet 'tough' guy...i speak three languages...english...bad inglesh...and assholeess...along with understanding latin...which with out saying i pritty much got any romantic language down for the understanding department...

[RomanS]

Call us crazy Russians, or whatever. . .

I'm proud to be born in one of the greatest nations on the planet EVER.

And always will defend her and those from there.

the 2 headed eagle !!!

Well said,

from America :cantbeli:

I'm an immagrant, and I'm proud of my new home, inspite of it's flaws. If Russia is so great, why don't you live there?

Unless you are Native American, or member of Christopher Columbuses family, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHERE TO LIVE MY FRIEND.

I got the best of both, and I'm sure proud of it.

[hank]

OK I'm answering.
10 years was ordinary prison time for serious crimes in Russia. They (German POW) were judged and get it. Plus many tach specialists worked in Secret RB and plants which were in our jails. And many of them prefer to work in such places than clear "a Siberia out of snow".

I'm sorry that that seems acceptable to you. If they committed crimes then where and when and what were the details of their crimes. Did you convict them? I'd like to see some proof of that.

Also, did it reduce your grandfather's suffering?

Charging common soldiers with crimes is not the way it works. If individuals committed crimes then so be it. But that is NOT what USSR did. They simply kept POWs after the was was over.

Would this have been acceptable to you if the shoe was on teh other foot? How would you feel if Stalin had made peace and Hitler had kept your grandfather as a POW until 1955? I imagine your answer would change. And it should.

hank

[RomanS]

OK I'm answering.
10 years was ordinary prison time for serious crimes in Russia. They (German POW) were judged and get it. Plus many tach specialists worked in Secret RB and plants which were in our jails. And many of them prefer to work in such places than clear "a Siberia out of snow".

I'm sorry that that seems acceptable to you. If they committed crimes then where and when and what were the details of their crimes. Did you convict them? I'd like to see some proof of that.

Also, did it reduce your grandfather's suffering?

Charging common soldiers with crimes is not the way it works. If individuals committed crimes then so be it. But that is NOT what USSR did. They simply kept POWs after the was was over.

Would this have been acceptable to you if the shoe was on teh other foot? How would you feel if Stalin had made peace and Hitler had kept your grandfather as a POW until 1955? I imagine your answer would change. And it should.

hank

why the F U K do you care??????????????

you have your own world, your own place, and your own life. BE HAPPY ABOUT IT, and live it.

What happened in Russia with Nazis, is our grandparents business, and is passed to us.

Not yours.

We don't come here and complain about war in Iraq or whatever is USA's new battlefield and their actions. Do we?

Abu Gharib and bla bla bla. Who gives a ****, its your business, and we DONT JUDGE YOU.

Leave us the fuk alone. Cause if you don't, its just gonna make your life more stressful. I'm sure there are better things to do right now for you, than being here arguing about Russia and Nazis. Which you have NOTHING TO DO WITH.

[hank]

why the F U K do you care??????????????

you have your own world, your own place, and your own life. BE HAPPY ABOUT IT, and live it.

What happened in Russia with Nazis, is our grandparents business, and is passed to us.

Not yours.

We don't come here and complain about war in Iraq or whatever is USA's new battlefield and their actions. Do we?

Abu Gharib and bla bla bla. Who gives a ****, its your business, and we DONT JUDGE YOU.

Leave us the fuk alone. Cause if you don't, its just gonna make your life more stressful. I'm sure there are better things to do right now for you, than being here arguing about Russia and Nazis. Which you have NOTHING TO DO WITH.

Permii you f***ing moron, you guys brought it up. Jesus Christ you are as illiterate as anyone I hae ever encountered. It is a wonder that you are able to make a post. You can obviously make simple words and phrases but just as abviously you cannot comprehend the written word.

You said in a much earlier post that USSR was justified in mistreating POWs well into the 1950s. That is utter nonsense and you are just too GD pig-headed to admit it. Hell, I don't even care. As far as I'm concerned you could all do whatever the f**k you want to each other. You can also say what you like about Abu Ghraib or any-GD-thing else you want. What I'm not listening to from you dim-witted *ss anymore are these retard statements about stuff like this. I've been reading your BS about Germans and Afghans and AK47s for way too f**kin long. If you weren't so stupid I might suffer your BS.

For Christ's sake, you started the day by telling an 18 year SF veteran that he was young and unskilled. Have you even thought about that?

For once in you life just shut your f**king piehole.

I'm shutting mine for tonight on this topic.

hank

[ArtofPain]

Also, did it reduce your grandfather's suffering?

Charging common soldiers with crimes is not the way it works. If individuals committed crimes then so be it. But that is NOT what USSR did. They simply kept POWs after the was was over.

Would this have been acceptable to you if the shoe was on teh other foot? How would you feel if Stalin had made peace and Hitler had kept your grandfather as a POW until 1955? I imagine your answer would change. And it should.

hank
Sorry dude d'you remember how many Rudolf Hess spent in a jail?
Nothing can reduce suffering and what? "Forgive and forget" action-style?
And what about Japans in USA in 1941?

[Kilgor]

Hess was far from the common soldier grunt, which the soviet union kept many of in captivity, ie for nearly 10 years.

[hank]

Sorry dude d'you remember how many Rudolf Hess spent in a jail?
Nothing can reduce suffering and what? "Forgive and forget" action-style?
And what about Japans in USA in 1941?

What are you talking about? Hess? Hess had a public trial broadcast over the radio at which he had a lawyer to represent him and he was found guilty of war crimes under a pre-exsiting body of international law. He then lived many years in a prison under British and French guard in Berlin. Here is a link in English. I will translate if that would help. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2106/hess/hessbio.htm

Perhaps you mean the Germans situation was very similar to Hess. Quite the contrary. I can provide transcripts of Hess's trial if necssary. CAn you produce transcripts of any trials of Germans? I think not.

Who said forgive and forget? I have never once said that.

What about Japan? They bombed Pearl Harbor, we fought a war against them, dropped 2 a-bombs on them and they unconditionally surrenedered. Then, we spent the next 15 years giving them one of the most successful democracies the world has ever seen and since then the country has been one of the best places to live on this planet.

What exactly was your point?

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt becasue you seem brighter than Permii, but I really don't understand your meaning. Please explain.

hank

[bas]

Call us crazy Russians, or whatever. . .
I'm proud to be born in one of the greatest nations on the planet EVER.
And always will defend her and those from there.
the 2 headed eagle !!!
Well said,
from America :cantbeli:
I'm an immagrant, and I'm proud of my new home, inspite of it's flaws. If Russia is so great, why don't you live there?

Unless you are Native American, or member of Christopher Columbuses family, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHERE TO LIVE MY FRIEND.

I got the best of both, and I'm sure proud of it.

Oh I'm not telling you where to live, I wouldn't dream of it. I'm just suggesting by exclaiming the greatness of one country, from the comfort of another, you are happy to talk the talk, but not prepared to walk the walk. <shrug> just my take on it.

[Herrmannek]

THey still love USSR, worst part about that is Stalin killed by sending to work camps more russian citizens on gosspip based->forced admitions->show 10minute long trials than any other nationality... One joke or child saying stupid things at school was good enough to get family train trip & die from heart attack in Siberia... I just don't understand that, if this is effect of propaganda or they willingly don't want to remember...

[ArtofPain]

What about Japan? They bombed Pearl Harbor, we fought a war against them, dropped 2 a-bombs on them and they unconditionally surrenedered. Then, we spent the next 15 years giving them one of the most successful democracies the world has ever seen and since then the country has been one of the best places to live on this planet.

What exactly was your point?

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt becasue you seem brighter than Permii, but I really don't understand your meaning. Please explain.

hank
I meant those camps for Japans and citizens of USA with Japan origin you had in 1941. D'ou know about them?

[RomanS]

Call us crazy Russians, or whatever. . .
I'm proud to be born in one of the greatest nations on the planet EVER.
And always will defend her and those from there.
the 2 headed eagle !!!
Well said,
from America :cantbeli:
I'm an immagrant, and I'm proud of my new home, inspite of it's flaws. If Russia is so great, why don't you live there?

Unless you are Native American, or member of Christopher Columbuses family, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHERE TO LIVE MY FRIEND.

I got the best of both, and I'm sure proud of it.

Oh I'm not telling you where to live, I wouldn't dream of it. I'm just suggesting by exclaiming the greatness of one country, from the comfort of another, you are happy to talk the talk, but not prepared to walk the walk. <shrug> just my take on it.

and what is it that WALK THE WALK are we talking about?

[bas]

THey still love USSR, worst part about that is Stalin killed by sending to work camps more russian citizens on gosspip based->forced admitions->show 10minute long trials than any other nationality... One joke or child saying stupid things at school was good enough to get family train trip & die from heart attack in Siberia... I just don't understand that, if this is effect of propaganda or they willingly don't want to remember...

I too don't understand this as even PermskiiOMON acknowledged it happened, but just brushed it over, and turned the full force of his fury against the Germans. An interesting response. On that topic, one of my clients has several Ukrainians working for them and on the wall of their office is a poster mourning the 6 million Ukrainians who died because of Stalins' policies.

For the record my Grandparents also suffered at the hands of the Nazi's with one being in the resistance and another getting sent to a forced labour camp in Germany (he jumped the train and got away). I don't know the full stories as they do not talk about it.

[RomanS]

THey still love USSR, worst part about that is Stalin killed by sending to work camps more russian citizens on gosspip based->forced admitions->show 10minute long trials than any other nationality... One joke or child saying stupid things at school was good enough to get family train trip & die from heart attack in Siberia... I just don't understand that, if this is effect of propaganda or they willingly don't want to remember...

there is a difference between slamming directly Stalin or some other man, vs the slamming of RUSSIANS as a whole. Which most people in this kind of arguments are working on.

Like I said... it is better to leave Russia and our history alone. Its not yours to WORRY about

[bas]

and what is it that WALK THE WALK are we talking about?


Living in the greatest country in the world of course.

[RomanS]

What about Japan? They bombed Pearl Harbor, we fought a war against them, dropped 2 a-bombs on them and they unconditionally surrenedered. Then, we spent the next 15 years giving them one of the most successful democracies the world has ever seen and since then the country has been one of the best places to live on this planet.

What exactly was your point?

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt becasue you seem brighter than Permii, but I really don't understand your meaning. Please explain.

hank
I meant those camps for Japans and citizens of USA with Japan origin you had in 1941. D'ou know about them?
One was in Arizona actually

[RomanS]

and what is it that WALK THE WALK are we talking about?


Living in the greatest country in the world of course.

I dont get it...

I got to Russia almost every year. I'm working and gaining experience here, so I can later apply it and perfect it in Russia.

I respect USA and never said I don't. I just hate the assholes who try to start **** about my countrymen, and they know who THEY ARE.

[Herrmannek]

THey still love USSR, worst part about that is Stalin killed by sending to work camps more russian citizens on gosspip based->forced admitions->show 10minute long trials than any other nationality... One joke or child saying stupid things at school was good enough to get family train trip & die from heart attack in Siberia... I just don't understand that, if this is effect of propaganda or they willingly don't want to remember...

there is a difference between slamming directly Stalin or some other man, vs the slamming of RUSSIANS as a whole. Which most people in this kind of arguments are working on.

Like I said... it is better to live Russia and our history alone. Its not yours to WORRY about

Hey i'm at least 1/8 russian(white) and this gives me right to bitch on Russia on interent forums :) esspecialy we still feel effects of its politics....

[mack pl]

The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles- all this is true.


No. Its not. :|

Regards

[RomanS]

THey still love USSR, worst part about that is Stalin killed by sending to work camps more russian citizens on gosspip based->forced admitions->show 10minute long trials than any other nationality... One joke or child saying stupid things at school was good enough to get family train trip & die from heart attack in Siberia... I just don't understand that, if this is effect of propaganda or they willingly don't want to remember...

there is a difference between slamming directly Stalin or some other man, vs the slamming of RUSSIANS as a whole. Which most people in this kind of arguments are working on.

Like I said... it is better to live Russia and our history alone. Its not yours to WORRY about

Hey i'm at least 1/8 russian(white) and this gives me right to bitch on Russia on interent forums :) esspecialy we still feel effects of its politics....
You just admitted it yourself, you acused Russia as a WHOLE.

not the certain politicians that made your life miserable.

Look Hermanek, I feel bad that you live on the street, or in the Soviet camp right now. Im also sorry that you have to eat the worst food ever, just a meal a day. Which includes a glass of water and a slice of bread.

I'm sorry that you are getting beat up and tortured by the Soviet NKVD every night. At least they are nice to give you internet access so you can express your anger towards Russians here.

[Abbyy]

THey still love USSR...

Get lost man :)
Don't touch poor dead country where i was born. :-*$


Well said, from America
I'm an immagrant, and I'm proud of my new home, inspite of it's flaws. If Russia is so great, why don't you live there?

He he. Roman pwned! :)
bas, he's not immigrant (well at least it was not his purpose :) ). He's hired gun :) making money in US.

What good in US - professional always can find here well paid job. I refused couple offers from US just because I have good job in Russia. He didn't. So he's now in Arisona.



Though conditions for German POWs in Soviet camps was very hard and some died most of them returned to hone after some years in Soviet Union.

You don´t believe this yourself, don´t you?

Ok, i finally found out required data.
Number of German's in captivity: 4 126 964
Died in captivity for different reasons: 585 048 - for all time from 1941 till 1955 - 15%.
Most of them - due to different ilnesses. Escpecially in 1944-1946 - too much POWs and too low amount of supplies. After that conditions were improved every year.

Not very good but you know Soviet people lived in the same afwul conditions during and after the war and have greater death toll. Granny of my wife born 5 children but only 2 survived. That was very hard time for all not only for POWs.

[Herrmannek]

As you now there was/is no democracy in Russia so saying Russia I don't refer to Russians or Russia as nation but to country, political structure.. This its "mind shortcut"

[bas]

I dont get it...
I got to Russia almost every year. I'm working and gaining experience here, so I can later apply it and perfect it in Russia.
I respect USA and never said I don't. I just hate the assholes who try to start **** about my countrymen, and they know who THEY ARE.

My apologies then, as you intend to go back, but you have to admit that you are currently in a very privleged position and do not have to face the realities of current life in Russia.

Also can you explain to me why is it that we are not allowed to comment on the history of Russia? I have to admit that I have a personal fondness of Russian firearms history and with that an accompaning interest in the events that gave birth to these weapons.

P.S. please take the time to translate the weapons section of your website as references to expermental WWII weapons are very rare in English.

[Abbyy]

As you now there was/is no democracy in Russia so saying Russia I don't refer to Russians or Russia as nation but to country, political structure.. This its "mind shortcut"

Let's go into details here. Please, list below main signs of democracy presence in country.

[hank]

What about Japan? They bombed Pearl Harbor, we fought a war against them, dropped 2 a-bombs on them and they unconditionally surrenedered. Then, we spent the next 15 years giving them one of the most successful democracies the world has ever seen and since then the country has been one of the best places to live on this planet.

What exactly was your point?

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt becasue you seem brighter than Permii, but I really don't understand your meaning. Please explain.

hank
I meant those camps for Japans and citizens of USA with Japan origin you had in 1941. D'ou know about them?

What is your point? Those were American citizens and nobody dies in those camps. We were wrong to do it, and I think we probably knew it then. But those "camps" and a gulag or a concentration camp lack any similarity. Still, you are right to point out that the US should not have done that to our citizens.

hank

[hank]

The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles- all this is true.


No. Its not. :|

Regards

I'm sorry, if I am mistaken, here is a quote about some of theses units.


The first such instance of ethnic German Volksdeutsche from Poland being formed into units to support Germany was in September of 1939 with the attack on Poland. Upon the entrance of German troops into the regions of Western Poland, small groups of Volksdeutsche came together and formed local milita groups. These Volksdeutsche milita aided the German attack in many areas, and became so useful that shortly after the German Invasion, between September 8th and 10th, it was decided to reorganize the milita groups into Self-Protection units, otherwise known as Selbschutz. The Selbschutz was therefore formed in the early days of the German attack on Poland from ethnic German-Poles between the ages of 17-45 in the regions of Western Poland. The Selbschutz came under the control of the SS, being organized into three regions known as Südlicher Bereich, Mittlerer Bereich and Nördlicher Bereich. Each region was itself divided into districts known as Kreise, and each Kreise into a locality or Ort. The southern and central regions came under the direct control of the SS-Hauptamt, while the northern region came under the control of the RSHA. As September 1939 came to an end, the Selbschutz was reorganized and came under the operational control of Ordungspolizei or Order Police. Throughout its existance, the Selbschutz was entrusted with various rear-area security and support operations, and in many cases earned for itself an infamous reputation - so much so that it was therefore requested that the Selbschutz be disbanded. An order was later placed directing that the Selbschutz be disbanded as of November 8th, 1939, with effect from the 30th of November, 1939. A select few units of the Selbschutz would go on to serve until April of 1940 when all unit were finally and permanently disbanded. It is thought that a total of 45,000 ethnic German-Poles served in the Selbschutz before it was ordered to be disbanded.


You can find this info here: http://www.feldgrau.com/poland.html

hank

[Abbyy]

What is your point? Those were American citizens and nobody dies in those camps. We were wrong to do it, and I think we probably knew it then. But those "camps" and a gulag or a concentration camp lack any similarity. Still, you are right to point out that the US should not have done that to our citizens.

hank

It is very difficult to answer question regarding Stalin times. You can also ask us something like "What was the point in killing millions of own citizens?" No answer. Same about POWs.

[Herrmannek]

As you now there was/is no democracy in Russia so saying Russia I don't refer to Russians or Russia as nation but to country, political structure.. This its "mind shortcut"

Let's go into details here. Plese, list below main signs of democracy presence in country.

ok there is no working democracy now in Russia :)...

No private media who can say bad word about president...
Opponents in elections shoot on the streets...
Mafia interconnection with officials
etc it all makes that Russia need revolution(not red of coze) to realy change things going on. I also don't believe Putin wants good for country in terms of democracy... He is on good way for dictatorship. Good or bad for Russia i don't know, but if you get someday one way ticket to Sibir remember my words :)

[perdurabo]

Good words dude! It was 60 years ago brother of grandpa was a POW in 1941 (he was lucky enough to escape in 1942) and I know some things from firsthand! But this not bother me to give hand to German people! (Not on the battlefield of course! ;) :lol: )

ArtofPain. my family suffered lots from both germans and russians, but i have no problem too, it was 60years ago, its history.

[mack pl]

The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles- all this is true.


No. Its not. :|

Regards

I'm sorry, if I am mistaken, here is a quote about some of theses units.


The first such instance of ethnic German Volksdeutsche from Poland being formed into units to support Germany was in September of 1939 with the attack on Poland. Upon the entrance of German troops into the regions of Western Poland, small groups of Volksdeutsche came together and formed local milita groups. These Volksdeutsche milita aided the German attack in many areas, and became so useful that shortly after the German Invasion, between September 8th and 10th, it was decided to reorganize the milita groups into Self-Protection units, otherwise known as Selbschutz. The Selbschutz was therefore formed in the early days of the German attack on Poland from ethnic German-Poles between the ages of 17-45 in the regions of Western Poland. The Selbschutz came under the control of the SS, being organized into three regions known as Südlicher Bereich, Mittlerer Bereich and Nördlicher Bereich. Each region was itself divided into districts known as Kreise, and each Kreise into a locality or Ort. The southern and central regions came under the direct control of the SS-Hauptamt, while the northern region came under the control of the RSHA. As September 1939 came to an end, the Selbschutz was reorganized and came under the operational control of Ordungspolizei or Order Police. Throughout its existance, the Selbschutz was entrusted with various rear-area security and support operations, and in many cases earned for itself an infamous reputation - so much so that it was therefore requested that the Selbschutz be disbanded. An order was later placed directing that the Selbschutz be disbanded as of November 8th, 1939, with effect from the 30th of November, 1939. A select few units of the Selbschutz would go on to serve until April of 1940 when all unit were finally and permanently disbanded. It is thought that a total of 45,000 ethnic German-Poles served in the Selbschutz before it was ordered to be disbanded.


You can find this info here: http://www.feldgrau.com/poland.html

hank

thx, but this article is about Volksdeutsches- Native Germans, not about Native Poles ;) So, they weren't POLISH Volunteers ;)

anyway, thx for article..

Best regards hank :)

[hank]

THey still love USSR, worst part about that is Stalin killed by sending to work camps more russian citizens on gosspip based->forced admitions->show 10minute long trials than any other nationality... One joke or child saying stupid things at school was good enough to get family train trip & die from heart attack in Siberia... I just don't understand that, if this is effect of propaganda or they willingly don't want to remember...

there is a difference between slamming directly Stalin or some other man, vs the slamming of RUSSIANS as a whole. Which most people in this kind of arguments are working on.

Like I said... it is better to leave Russia and our history alone. Its not yours to WORRY about

Permii, you really need to read. Everyone here has said repestedly that the country USSR should not have kep the POWs. None of us here are naive enough to think that Vlad Schmoe on the street is responsible for teh decision to keep German POWs after 1945.

I think America was wrong to have slaves and to have interred the Japanese during WWII. Does that make my GGGrandfather Green Wesley Bunn who fought for the South in the Civil War personally responsible for slaves? No. Does that make my Grandfather who fought the Japanese in WWII responsible for interring the Japanese? No. It doesn't mean that every Russian is bad becaue Stalin screwed up and did something bad and nobody here said it did. Every country does and has done things that are regrettably. The US is at the top of the list. These is no shaem in saying my country did a bad thing but I still love it.

Hell, I'm embarassed in a lot of ways to think that I am the descendant ofa man who fought for the south in the Civil War. It was wrong, slavery was wrong. But the fact is he never owned a slave and he was caught up in the times. It does not make his decision right, but it makes it understandable.

Think about it.

hank

[hank]

The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles- all this is true.


No. Its not. :|

Regards

I'm sorry, if I am mistaken, here is a quote about some of theses units.


The first such instance of ethnic German Volksdeutsche from Poland being formed into units to support Germany was in September of 1939 with the attack on Poland. Upon the entrance of German troops into the regions of Western Poland, small groups of Volksdeutsche came together and formed local milita groups. These Volksdeutsche milita aided the German attack in many areas, and became so useful that shortly after the German Invasion, between September 8th and 10th, it was decided to reorganize the milita groups into Self-Protection units, otherwise known as Selbschutz. The Selbschutz was therefore formed in the early days of the German attack on Poland from ethnic German-Poles between the ages of 17-45 in the regions of Western Poland. The Selbschutz came under the control of the SS, being organized into three regions known as Südlicher Bereich, Mittlerer Bereich and Nördlicher Bereich. Each region was itself divided into districts known as Kreise, and each Kreise into a locality or Ort. The southern and central regions came under the direct control of the SS-Hauptamt, while the northern region came under the control of the RSHA. As September 1939 came to an end, the Selbschutz was reorganized and came under the operational control of Ordungspolizei or Order Police. Throughout its existance, the Selbschutz was entrusted with various rear-area security and support operations, and in many cases earned for itself an infamous reputation - so much so that it was therefore requested that the Selbschutz be disbanded. An order was later placed directing that the Selbschutz be disbanded as of November 8th, 1939, with effect from the 30th of November, 1939. A select few units of the Selbschutz would go on to serve until April of 1940 when all unit were finally and permanently disbanded. It is thought that a total of 45,000 ethnic German-Poles served in the Selbschutz before it was ordered to be disbanded.


You can find this info here: http://www.feldgrau.com/poland.html

hank

thx, but this article is about Volksdeutsches- Native Germans, not about Native Poles ;) So, they weren't POLISH Volunteers ;)

anyway, thx for article..

Best regards hank :)

I see the confusion. My mistake. I thought that these units were made of Poles but I see the distinction. Anyway, my point was that there were many SS and Heer units made up of volunteers from occuppied and non-oocupied nations in Europe actively fighting for Germany. Maybe not Poles, as you point out, but there were others.

hank

[mack pl]

I see the confusion. My mistake. I thought that these units were made of Poles but I see the distinction. Anyway, my point was that there were many SS and Heer units made up of volunteers from occuppied and non-oocupied nations in Europe actively fighting for Germany. Maybe not Poles, as you point out, but there were others.

hank

you are right- Not Poles...we haven't got any Waffen-SS volunteer units etc.,, we havent got "polish" Quisling etc. But other nations yes....

Best regards

[hank]

What is your point? Those were American citizens and nobody dies in those camps. We were wrong to do it, and I think we probably knew it then. But those "camps" and a gulag or a concentration camp lack any similarity. Still, you are right to point out that the US should not have done that to our citizens.

hank

It is very difficult to answer question regarding Stalin times. You can also ask us something like "What was the point in killing millions of own citizens?" No answer. Same about POWs.

That is the only point I make. I'm not condemning individual citizens for hte acts of a government, but arguing that Stalin was right to keep thousands of legitimate POWs fighting under orders from superiors for more than 10 years is wrong. If that happened to Russian POWs then you'd be outraged, and you'd be right to feel that way. Permii just does not pay attention. I don't think he understands English well enough to get the meaning behind the words. Maybe you can and then expkain it to him.

The answer "its wrong and I don't know" is the only logical one. Why did we inter the Japanese as ARtofPain points out. Who knows? It was dumb and should not have happened. If those interred had died then those who made the decision should be held responsible. But not every American citizen not involved in the decision, jsut as not every Russian not involved in the decision to keep those POWs so long. make sense?

hank

hank

[perdurabo]

You can find this info here: http://www.feldgrau.com/poland.html
hank
hank Poland pre 39 was mixture of meany nationalitys. with large group of germans. Differ Polish nationality and Polish citizenship. There where no unit of Polish nationality.
But there where "Blue-Police" disarmed pre39 Police used to keep guard on streets cach pickpokets etc. and moust of them serwed in AK or symphatising with them. They saved meany lifes telling AK about german moves, and giving support to AK actions.
There where also traitors but moust of them AK killed afther underground trials.

[Abbyy]

ok there is no working democracy now in Russia :)...


It's not connected with Putin, Yeltsin or everyone else. Democracy very weak here (but still working often) mostly due to weakness of civil society.



No private media who can say bad word about president...


Wrong (wanna me to explain?).



Opponents in elections shoot on the streets...


See below and if it is not connected with case below - you're wrong



Mafia interconnection with officials


And? Wanna to talk about Italia or US in 30's? Weakness of civil society and indefference of people do to democracy more than these connections.



I also don't believe Putin wants good for country in terms of democracy... He is on good way for dictatorship. Good or bad for Russia i don't know, but if you get someday one way ticket to Sibir remember my words :)

May be Putin prefer authocracy before democracy but fortunately we're not expecting any massive repressions and similar ****.

[hank]

You can find this info here: http://www.feldgrau.com/poland.html
hank
hank Poland pre 39 was mixture of meany nationalitys. with large group of germans. Differ Polish nationality and Polish citizenship. There where no unit of Polish nationality.
But there where "Blue-Police" disarmed pre39 Police used to keep guard on streets cach pickpokets etc. and moust of them serwed in AK or symphatising with them. They saved meany lifes telling AK about german moves, and giving support to AK actions.
There where also traitors but moust of them AK killed afther underground trials.

I'm with you, mackpl set me straight. My mistake. Still, there were lots of German Heer and SS units made entirely of soldiers from other countries, just not Poles.

hank

[Herrmannek]

I agree Abby, but it all makes democracy not working on national level and probably local level to. If you want tell us more about media I will hear it with plessure as our media haven't deep insight on that...

As for putin authocracy. Its true nothing seems that Putin is bloodthirsty bastard but if he will do crimes he will be doing them in name of Russia not only himself's

[perdurabo]

I'm with you, mackpl set me straight. My mistake. Still, there were lots of German Heer and SS units made entirely of soldiers from other countries, just not Poles.

hank

yeah i saw this but afther posting. i write slowly in english.

Abby
You have right, russians are still learning (we have problems with normal democracy too) its normal afther so much years of comunism.

Herrmanek
Give russians time to learn look at us at rywin-gate, and frecfention on elections, we are no better and much to learn is left.

[mack pl]

Still, there were lots of German Heer units made entirely of soldiers from other countries, just not Poles.


well, after september39, western part of Poland was part of german reich, so native Poles from this land had german citizenship...so, they were in Wermacht units, but they weren't "volunteers" of course ;)

PS. Im talking only about Werhmacht, not about SS.

Regards

[Abbyy]

I agree Abby, but it all makes democracy not working on national level and probably local level to. If you want tell us more about media I will hear it with plessure as our media haven't deep insight on that...

As for putin authocracy. Its true nothing seems that Putin is bloodthirsty bastard but if he will do crimes he will be doing them in name of Russia not only himself's

Everyone on the West knows that Putin is against democracy because Putin destroyed free media.
Ok, now give me the list of media opressed by governoment.
Problably you'll have some problem because only known case is NTV team case.

I agree that Putin's team tried to line up all nationwide TV channels and put them at least under partial control. There is nothing new if you'll compare it with de Golle times in France or with BBC service funded mostly by UK governoment.

But there are a lot of different newspapers, magazines, local TV stations, Radio broadcasting, Internet portals. And some part of them are anti-governoment. As good example - newspapers and magazines from Kommersant pool owned by Berezovsky.

NTV still critize governoment. Reporters from Svoboda bureau working on central TV. And so on. I'm not trying to deny that governoment made a lot of pressure to free press. I'm just saying that free press alive after that.

[Herrmannek]

Herrmanek
Give russians time to learn look at us at rywin-gate, and frecfention on elections, we are no better and much to learn is left.
Yup our democracy isn't good but it works..there is no chance for kwach to stay on third cadention woot woot woot

[mack pl]

Herrmanek
Give russians time to learn look at us at rywin-gate, and frecfention on elections, we are no better and much to learn is left.
Yup our democracy isn't good but it works..there is no chance for kwach to stay on third cadention woot woot woot

Im guess they have no fukin Idea what are you talking about :|

btw poor Kwach :petting:

[Herrmannek]

But there are a lot of different newspapers, magazines, local TV stations, Radio broadcasting, Internet portals. And some part of them are anti-governoment. As good example - newspapers and magazines from Kommersant pool owned by Berezovsky.

NTV still critize governoment. Reporters from Svoboda bureau working on central TV. And so on. I'm not trying to deny that governoment made a lot of pressure to free press. I'm just saying that free press alive after that.

Yup dictatorship this days demand realy good qualifcations ;)

[LeMat]

The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles, Swedes, French, Russians, Ukranians - all this is true.



Can you show me a single german unit with POLISH volunteers?
I mean POLISH (POLES) not GERMANS who lived in Poland.
Can you?

OH. I have seen your answer. Sorry p-)

[Thor]

and you can't do a JACK **** about it
..I could of course buy your mum for $5 and then losing your only provider would force you to drink even cheaper vodka that would make you go blind.



Better equipment at the start of the war
Better training
Suprice attack on Soviet factories (even though Stalin was warned many times)

Then how about Finland 1939-40? The soviets greatly outnumbered the finns and also the soviets had great equipment and training compared to the finns. In that war there were 5 dead russians for every dead finn. And the saying was that on the battlefield one fighting finn was worth 10 russian soldiers.

I’d say russians simply are not that great fighters.


oh my god, NO

not this Scandinavian **** again ...

"You should have stayed in your corner of the world in the first place." Right?

It's quite understandable that you ruskies don't want to remember that sort of things. :) The truth is that the germans were much better fighters than you and so were many other nationalities. You can't blame it on the circumstances.

But it's true that the germans treated the russians pretty bad. If Hitler had been just a little bit more considerate to strategical aims rather than ideological he would have treated russians ok. That way he would have been seen as a liberator and the ruskies would have continued to surrender in unebeliavable numbers as in the first months of the war. I believe most soviets would rahter have chosen survival and a nice POW-camp than being forced to a tough fight by political commisars.

[Thor]

..and of course I agree to the fact that the russians would never have won the war if it had'nt been for the massive help (lend-lease) they received from the US and other western allies.

[Viktor_s]

The only thing I regret about the whole thing is how ungrateful you ended up being. We sold you and the Brits tanks, planes, ships, food, invaded North Africa, invaded Europe twice, kicked the Japanese in the ass all the while, never got a single penny from USSR and this is the thanks we get from you. Your ungratefulness is never ending and exceeded only by you inability to respond to the points being made. Maybe isolationaism was the better strategy.

I'm sorry to point this out, but you are not right.

You were paid from both the Brits and the Russians. Britain paid by giving you the ownership of the large corporations (around 60%) with the control packs or full ownership.

Russians have paid by gold. My Grandad serving in special service in far east told me that the Russians were loading a huge cargo ship for 2 days non stop with gold.

Get your facts right and please don't treat every post as a personal abuse, be a little bit grown up.

One more thing. USA was always a bit late joining the war, let it WW1 or WW2, enjoying the view and reaping the profits.

[Viktor_s]

..and of course I agree to the fact that the russians would never have won the war if it had'nt been for the massive help (lend-lease) they received from the US and other western allies.

Maybe, who can tell! From the industrial point of view this is doubtful, it would take longer but Russians might just scrape through, remember that most factories were evacuated to the Ural, Middle Asia and Siberia.

From the agrarian point of view this is an interesting point, as most of the cultivated and naturally suitable land was under occupation by Nazi German, so the answer would most likely be - Russians would go **** up.

[Herrmannek]

If someone actualy starts war he rarely can enjoy views :)

[Viktor_s]

hank wrote:

I'm with you, mackpl set me straight. My mistake. Still, there were lots of German Heer and SS units made entirely of soldiers from other countries, just not Poles.

hank



Yeah, Like Latvians, who by the way put a memorial to their SS legion, and celebrating their death, like heroes of somekind, with the blind eye of UN.

[Abbyy]

Thor, my dear there're two reasons why land-lease supplies aren't as valueable as you think.

1. US supplied only items which lacked in Soviet Union. And maybe amount of trucks and food was noticeable, amount of tanks, artillery, guns and airplanes was much lower just because we had enough of our own in production.

2. We PAID for this "help" in GOLD. Good deal from the trading point of view but i can hardly call this "help".

[hank]

The only thing I regret about the whole thing is how ungrateful you ended up being. We sold you and the Brits tanks, planes, ships, food, invaded North Africa, invaded Europe twice, kicked the Japanese in the ass all the while, never got a single penny from USSR and this is the thanks we get from you. Your ungratefulness is never ending and exceeded only by you inability to respond to the points being made. Maybe isolationaism was the better strategy.

I'm sorry to point this out, but you are not right.

You were paid from both the Brits and the Russians. Britain paid by giving you the ownership of the large corporations (around 60%) with the control packs or full ownership.

Russians have paid by gold. My Grandad serving in special service in far east told me that the Russians were loading a huge cargo ship for 2 days non stop with gold.

Get your facts right and please don't treat every post as a personal abuse, be a little bit grown up.

One more thing. USA was always a bit late joining the war, let it WW1 or WW2, enjoying the view and reaping the profits.

Well, Viktor, thanks for pointing out a minor detail that does not change the point I was making. I looked it up just now and found a Pravda article. My point was how ungrateful USSR was and not how ungrateful RussianTexan ws for the fact that the US contributed mightily. The point was, and is, that RussianTexabn would disagree with anything I say, as you have just done, WITHOUT THINKING. So here are the facts from a source that you should be pleased with.

The fact is that RussianTexan's country, and its predecessor has not paid for the goods we delivered during WWII and lendlease.


The USSR received hundreds of thousands of military vehicles and motorbikes. Lack of fuel was ameliorated with deliveries of 2.5 million tons of petroleum products. The profusion of Roosevelt's "garden hose" provided Stalin with 595 ships, including 28 frigates, 105 submarines, 77 trawlers, 22 torpedo boats, 140 anti-submarine vessels and others. The Soviet air force received 4,952 Aerocobra and 2,410 Kingcobra fighter jets. Soviet pilot Alexander Pokryshkin fought with Hitler's Luftwaffe aces in Aerocobra planes, which made him a Hero of the Soviet Union hero three times over.

The lend-lease agreement supplied the USSR with 2,7 thousand A-20 and 861 B-25 bomber planes. Soviet tank divisions received 7,056 tanks, 8,218 anti-aircraft emplacements, 131,600 machine guns and other arms.

Soviet propaganda tried to diminish the importance of the American help. Back in those years, it was said that the Soviet Union had produced 30,000 tanks and 40,000 planes since the middle of 1943. Well, as a matter of fact, this was true. However, one has to take into consideration the fact that lend and lease deliveries were made to the USSR during the most difficult period of the war - during the second half of 1942. In addition, the USSR would not have been capable of producing its arms without the lend-lease agreement: The USA shipped 2.3 million tons of steel to the USSR during the WWII years. That volume of steel was enough for the production of 70,000 T-34 tanks. Aluminum was received in the volume of 229,000 tons, which helped the Soviet aviation and tank industries to run for two years. One has to mention food deliveries as well: 3.8 million tons of tinned pork, sausages, butter, chocolate, egg powder and so on. The lend-lease agreement provided orderlies with 423,000 telephones and tens of thousands of wireless stations. Deliveries also included oil distillation equipment, field bakeries, tents, parachutes, and so on and so forth. The Soviet Union also received 15 million pairs of army boots.

The help was delivered to the USSR via Iran and major Soviet sea ports. About 3,000 transport vessels arrived at the ports of Murmansk, Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok, and delivered 1.3 million tons of cargo. It would be incorrect to diminish the significance of such all-embracing help from the New World as a serious factor that assisted in the victorious ending of the war.

Historians and politicians keep on arguing about the results and lessons of WWII. The basic results of the war are known: the war was lost by the two major participants inthe "grand political game" of 1939-1940 - both Hitler and Stalin. Of course, the Soviet leader defeated Hitler, although it then resulted in the ideological crisis and, eventually, in the tragic collapse of the totalitarian superpower - the USSR. It is worth mentioning here that the debt of the Soviet Union - $722 million - for the lend-lease contract has not been completely paid to the States yet.

So fine, I'll admit that point. You are right, Russia paid something. Doesn't change the ungratefulness of RussianTexan's irrelevant comments and the fact that Russia has not paid its debt.

I'm not going to sit around anymore while Permii and RussianTexan pop off BS. I've had my fill and that is that. The point of thsi thread was how badly those German POWs were treated.

I've said it now so many times I can't believe it, but I'll say it one more time: The Germans treated Russians very badly during WWII but that mistreatment does not and cannot justify keeping regular POWs until 1955.

Viktor, next time why don't you look something up instead of just denying it? it took me very little time to do this. www.google.com

Link to the story:http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/9941_roosevelt.html

hank

[hank]

Thor, my dear there're two reasons why land-lease supplies aren't as valueable as you think.

1. US supplied only items which lacked in Soviet Union. And maybe amount of trucks and food was noticeable, amount of tanks, artillery, guns and airplanes was much lower just because we had enough of our own in production.

2. We PAID for this "help" in GOLD. Good deal from the trading point of view but i can hardly call this "help".

See the pravda I linked to. This is utter and incorrect BS.

hank

[Abbyy]

Thor, my dear there're two reasons why land-lease supplies aren't as valueable as you think.

1. US supplied only items which lacked in Soviet Union. And maybe amount of trucks and food was noticeable, amount of tanks, artillery, guns and airplanes was much lower just because we had enough of our own in production.

2. We PAID for this "help" in GOLD. Good deal from the trading point of view but i can hardly call this "help".

See the pravda I linked to. This is utter and incorrect BS.

hank

There is disagreement about that. Just because some supplies of gold sisn't reach shipment address because they reached cold bottom of nothern seas.

Americans argued that they didn't receive that gold, while Soviet Union argued that it sent it to US and it is problem of US to obtain it. Truly speaking i don't know how much costs those tonns of gold, But i suppose - a lot.

[hank]

Thor, my dear there're two reasons why land-lease supplies aren't as valueable as you think.

1. US supplied only items which lacked in Soviet Union. And maybe amount of trucks and food was noticeable, amount of tanks, artillery, guns and airplanes was much lower just because we had enough of our own in production.

2. We PAID for this "help" in GOLD. Good deal from the trading point of view but i can hardly call this "help".

See the pravda I linked to. This is utter and incorrect BS.

hank

There is disagreement about that. Just because some supplies of gold sisn't reach shipment address because they reached cold bottom of nothern seas.

Americans argued that they didn't receive that gold, while Soviet Union argued that it sent it to US and it is problem of US to obtain it. Truly speaking i don't know how much costs those tonns of gold, But i suppose - a lot.

Show us some info. This is a Pravda article. Viktor made a claim, I offered proof, you do the normwl trick, deny. If you want to disagree then come up wit ha link that USSR/Russia paid the $722 MM. Also, you failed to deal with the fact that this article slays your claim about the "help" not really being that helpful.

Did you read the quote?

Why this ommission?

You guys are really acting badly. You would deny anything posted. Anything. I could list the f**king number of Square kilometers in the former USSR from a damned atlas and you would deny it. Its tired and old.

hank

[Abbyy]

Also i would like to point out that while this deliveries saved a lot of lives in Soviet Union and helped to win over Germany real reasons why this supplies were sent is not as noble as it may looks.

It was sent not to save lives of Soviet people but to save a lot of lives of US soldiers in 1944. US awaited 3.5 years before attacking Normandy.

[hank]

Thor, my dear there're two reasons why land-lease supplies aren't as valueable as you think.

1. US supplied only items which lacked in Soviet Union. And maybe amount of trucks and food was noticeable, amount of tanks, artillery, guns and airplanes was much lower just because we had enough of our own in production.

2. We PAID for this "help" in GOLD. Good deal from the trading point of view but i can hardly call this "help".

See the pravda I linked to. This is utter and incorrect BS.

hank

There is disagreement about that. Just because some supplies of gold sisn't reach shipment address because they reached cold bottom of nothern seas.

Americans argued that they didn't receive that gold, while Soviet Union argued that it sent it to US and it is problem of US to obtain it. Truly speaking i don't know how much costs those tonns of gold, But i suppose - a lot.

Abbyy you'rer just f**king full of **** and its making me crazy. Here isa report from the CSR listing state debts. On the list is a $600 MM debt to US for lend lease. You just constantly mistate facts like crazy.

Here is the link:

http://www.ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/economics/econ-72.cfm?&CFID=14786900&CFTOKEN=2020905

Here is the gyst:


Source: Communication from the Department of Treasury, June 9, 2000. Paris Club debt is debt incurred prior to the debt cutoff date for rescheduling, which in the Russian case was January 1992, not long after the creation of the Russian Federation. The agricultural debt for Paris Club Soviet Era is from the Commodity Credit Corporation debts: The Russian Era debt is under Public Law 480. The Lend-Lease debt incurred in World War II was renegotiated in 1972.

Right above this quote in a table is teh figure .6 and the table says in billions of dollars.

What say you now?

hank

[hank]

Also i would like to point out that while this deliveries saved a lot of lives in Soviet Union and helped to win over Germany real reasons why this supplies were sent is not as noble as it may looks.

It was sent not to save lives of Soviet people but to save a lot of lives of US soldiers in 1944. US awaited 3.5 years before attacking Normandy.

Are you incapable of providing data to back up your baseless claims? I guess so.

When will you stop denying the truth and making statements that are factually innaccurate and contrary to reality?

Can you read the information I provided?

hank

[Abbyy]

Thor, my dear there're two reasons why land-lease supplies aren't as valueable as you think.

1. US supplied only items which lacked in Soviet Union. And maybe amount of trucks and food was noticeable, amount of tanks, artillery, guns and airplanes was much lower just because we had enough of our own in production.

2. We PAID for this "help" in GOLD. Good deal from the trading point of view but i can hardly call this "help".

See the pravda I linked to. This is utter and incorrect BS.

hank

There is disagreement about that. Just because some supplies of gold sisn't reach shipment address because they reached cold bottom of nothern seas.

Americans argued that they didn't receive that gold, while Soviet Union argued that it sent it to US and it is problem of US to obtain it. Truly speaking i don't know how much costs those tonns of gold, But i suppose - a lot.

Show us some info. This is a Pravda article. Viktor made a claim, I offered proof, you do the normwl trick, deny. If you want to disagree then come up wit ha link that USSR/Russia paid the $722 MM. Also, you failed to deal with the fact that this article slays your claim about the "help" not really being that helpful.

Did you read the quote?

Why this ommission?

You guys are really acting badly. You would deny anything posted. Anything. I could list the f**king number of Square kilometers in the former USSR from a damned atlas and you would deny it. Its tired and old.

hank

Well you know... Yesterday one man come to my apartments and helped me to move some boxes. Did he help me? Yes! Was it impossible for me to handle those boxes alone? No, I could.

That's what i'm speaking about. lend-lease supplies was helpful and as i said above helped to save a lot of lives. Escpecially in the 1941-1942. But these supplies weren't critical for achieving victory. May be i'm wrong about this but i don't have any serious historical developments about this here at my office.

[Abbyy]

Also i would like to point out that while this deliveries saved a lot of lives in Soviet Union and helped to win over Germany real reasons why this supplies were sent is not as noble as it may looks.

It was sent not to save lives of Soviet people but to save a lot of lives of US soldiers in 1944. US awaited 3.5 years before attacking Normandy.

Are you incapable of providing data to back up your baseless claims? I guess so.

When will you stop denying the truth and making statements that are factually innaccurate and contrary to reality?

Can you read the information I provided?

hank

How much can cost 5.5 tons of gold?

[hank]

Abbyy, do you read? Did you read? Your statements are inconsistent with the factual information I posted. Your statements are anecdotal and unsubstantiated. They mislead many people into thinking the wrong thing about US lendlease help to your country.

why do you feel the need to do this? Go read somehting objective instead of just relying on these silly anecdotes and your little stories.

You offer nothing to refute the fact that your ogernment ADMITS a $600 million dollar debt. $600 MM is not a disagreement about a gold payment. $600 MM is failure to pay on your country's part.

Do you deny this?

Read the figures on just the non-military aid.

READ this is you can. US provided USSR enough stell to build 70,000 T-34s.


That volume of steel was enough for the production of 70,000 T-34 tanks.

Do you really want to take the position that enough stell to build 70,000 T-34s is analogous to moving a few boxes? If you do you are worse than Permii and RussianTexan. There is simply no logical reason for you to argue this. We helpd your country when you needed us and in your darkest hour. We offered American lives to HELP save Europe from Fascism. We offered American resources to help a governemnt we were ideologically opposed to in every way. In return you don't pay and your ungrateful.

Think

hank

[hank]

Also i would like to point out that while this deliveries saved a lot of lives in Soviet Union and helped to win over Germany real reasons why this supplies were sent is not as noble as it may looks.

It was sent not to save lives of Soviet people but to save a lot of lives of US soldiers in 1944. US awaited 3.5 years before attacking Normandy.

Are you incapable of providing data to back up your baseless claims? I guess so.

When will you stop denying the truth and making statements that are factually innaccurate and contrary to reality?

Can you read the information I provided?

hank

How much can cost 5.5 tons of gold?

Do you have any proof of 5.5 tons of Gold? Where is it? You are GD BS artist. Read you moron. READ

Your f**kin government admits the GD debt in its financial statements. Where is the disagreement?

hank

[hank]

I'll be back next Thursday after I take the bar and I will check on this thread when I return. Maybe by then you'll have figured out how to read the facts I have provided.

Doubtful

hank

[mi35d]

Ahhhhh, the joys of this forum! I left a post yesterday on page 3 and not even 24 hours later page 13!

The vitriol is flowing...

Meanwhile, my comment was never answered. Quite a nice sidestep from our Russian friends.

Yes - the Germans invaded and you were well within your rights to kick the ever lovin' **** out of them.

Meanwhile, I need to get a new history book, maybe one written by Stalin...when did Poland invade the Soviet Union? When did Finland? Or Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania? Romania? Bulgaria? Czechoslavakia? Hungary?

As for Lend/Lease, this argument will never end because of the Soviet Era propaganda that still permeates Russian society and psyche. To admit that they were within a hair of being defeated is a loss of face. To admit further that if it wasn't for US assistance the defeat would have occurred without question would be too much to bear.

For the camps in the US, let's kick it up a notch: There were just as many Italian and German Americans in "relocation" camps as there were Japanese. Big difference was they weren't worked to death or tortured or mass murdered as in German concentration camps or Russian POW work camps. Also, even before the war was over these people were released and their rights as citizens were returned.

And getting mighty tired of the old Russian BS about the US not opening a second front. Last time I checked Italy was firmly attached to Europe. The US opened the second front on July 9th, 1943 with the Sicily invasion. (A sore point for the men of the "Big Red One" who fought from 1942 in Africa all the way up to the surrender in 1945 yet the Normandy Invasion units usually get the glory - "Band of Brothers", etc.)

As for the US getting into wars late, well, you guys didn't invite us until your asses were sore from getting kicked. And sure, we probably made a buck or two selling stuff. Just the way it goes. (I'm sure the Soviet Union didn't make a single Ruble selling rifles, tanks, aircraft, missiles, etc. over the years to the Chinese, Vietnamese, Cubans, etc. and all the countries where they were "guests".)

Patriotic reality is when you see your country for what it is and realize that you're right to be proud of your nation but also have to accept the fact that it can do crappy things as well.

[ArtofPain]

How much can cost 5.5 tons of gold?
Abbyy, can you translate it in English? http://www.specnaz.ru/istoriya/474/
And this article http://ef.1939-1945.net/008_lend_lease_01.shtml

[Zapp Brannigan]

The Germans created units for volunteers from Nearly every country they invaded. Poles, Swedes, French, Russians, Ukranians - all this is true.



Can you show me a single german unit with POLISH volunteers?
I mean POLISH (POLES) not GERMANS who lived in Poland.
Can you?

OH. I have seen your answer. Sorry p-)"Nearly" - Of the various occupied nations, Poles, Czechs, Slovenes and Greeks were pretty much the only ones not actively recruited into German military units or auxiliary formations. There were, however, Poles in several German units, though no one I have talked to can confirm why. They may have been Polish speakers in the areas incorporatte into the Reich whom the Germans decided were really ethnic Germans, or they may have been labor units conscripted as auxiliaries.

There is one unit that clearly had Polish-speaking members - Grenadier-Regiment 281 of the 148.Infanterie-Division. I have in my possession a number of US propaganda leaflets specifically targeting Polish members of this unit, which were dropped in Italy in 1945.

As for other nationalities, the Waffen SS began recruiting ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsch) from outside Germany fairly early on, mainly because Reichsdeutsch had to complete regular military service before they could serve in the SS. The Waffen SS also began recruiting other occupied peoples that Nazi race theorists considered "Aryan" enough - Danes, Dutch, Flemings and Norwegians. Non-"Aryans" were kept out, and ended up in Wehrmacht units when recruited.

These included French, Walloons and a small number of Ukrainians in two special operations units. Eventually, the Waffen SS took over most of these, and began actively recruiting non-"Aryans", turning into a multi-ethnic force that turned Nazi race theory on its head.

When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, they were welcomed as liberators in some places, but Nazi occupation policies soon caused that to go away. Still, the Wehrmacht managed to form hundreds of volunteer units among Russians and other peoples of the USSR. Eventually, entire divisions would be formed from these peoples, though in most cases they were divisions in name only and the various Eastern Peoples units remained mainly a labor and security force. A division was formed of various Turkic-language speakers, and deployed in Italy. Cossack cavalry regiments and brigades were formed, and by the end of the war there was a Cossack Cavalry Corps.

A Georgian Legion was formed, among whose members was a former Tsarist officer whose son would emigrate to the US and become a four-star general.

Besides units in German service, two occupied nations were treated as nominally independent - Croatia and Slovakia. Their forces, including a Slovak light division and a Croatian antiaircraft regiment, fought on the Russian Front. Croats also participated in the brutal partisan war in Yugoslavia (along with Serbs, Bosnian Muslims and Albanians in German service).

A number of the Russians and other Soviet citizens in German service may have been motivated by anti-Communism, but for most it was a way out of the POW camps, where prisoners were dying by the thousands daily. Add the Germans compounded their failure by using many of them for occupation duty in France, Italy and the Balkans, so even the ones who were in the Wehrmacht because they wanted to liberate their homeland from Stalin lost their motivation.

Given the initial welcome some Germans received, and the large numbers of Europeans who responded positively to the Nazi's anti-Bolshevist recruiting campaign, many have wondered whether Nazi Germany might have won had they fought Barbarossa as a war of liberation. But for Nazi Germany to have fought a war to free Slavs, they wouldn't have been Nazis, so that misses the whole point.

Many Germans, especially among the anti-Nazi resistance, did want to turn the war into an anti-Communist crusade, but for most German officers, recruiting Russians and other Soviet peoples was just a pragmatic measure. For committed Nazis, it was a cynical measure, since they considered Slavs subhuman. Unlike Jews, though, who were only worthy of extermination, most Nazis viewed Slavs as a source of labor. They intended to kill the Jews and Gypsies outright, but the Slavs would be colonized and exploited and worked to death.

[Zapp Brannigan]

I guess Im just dumb, but can you help me here a little?

What the fuk are you trying to prove to me???????????????

That Nazis were ok, and Soviet people bad

I just dont get it...
tell meYes, you must just be dumb, if you think I am trying to prove that "Nazis were ok". And, as has been repeatedly noted, you are the one making Russians and other peoples of the former USSR out to be bad, without apparently realizing it.

[hank]

Nice work Zapp. Did I read correctly that you used to be Dave the Dawg? If so I am not surprised by you lucidity and attention to detail. Thanks for helping. This whole thing is making me tired.

hank

[hank]

How much can cost 5.5 tons of gold?
Abbyy, can you translate it in English? http://www.specnaz.ru/istoriya/474/
And this article http://ef.1939-1945.net/008_lend_lease_01.shtml

What good would the translations do. The fact is that Russia after he fall of the USSR sold f**king bonds to try and pay the debt. There is great detail in teh link I provided about how Yeltsin asked to have teh due date on the debt put off and how US Congress agreed. It is disingenuous to ask for more time to pay a debt and then to say you don't owe it. If you don't owe it then what would be the point of more time? That is tantamount to an admission that the debt is good.

Anyway, your arguments are like those of the person getting his car repossessed. Every bad debtor in the world "tried to pay" and Russia is no exception. If only we could have that 70,000 tons of steel back. Alas, you know what they say about "best intentions"?

I know I broke my promise but there is only so much reading about wills and estates that one can do at a time.

hank

[RomanS]

I guess Im just dumb, but can you help me here a little?

What the fuk are you trying to prove to me???????????????

That Nazis were ok, and Soviet people bad

I just dont get it...
tell meYes, you must just be dumb, if you think I am trying to prove that "Nazis were ok". And, as has been repeatedly noted, you are the one making Russians and other peoples of the former USSR out to be bad, without apparently realizing it.

you should start taking notes,

NOTE 1 - Do you see any Russians here complaining that I'm making them look bad?

[Zapp Brannigan]

NOTE 1 - Do you see any Russians here complaining that I'm making them look bad?Note: you do not speak for all Russians. All Russians here do not speak for all Russians. I do not speak for all Russians, but I'm not the one trying to absolve anyone of moral culpability for one's actions.


Did I read correctly that you used to be Dave the Dawg?... This whole thing is making me tired.

hankYes, that's me. And this whole thing tires me as well. I do not mind debating people with whom I may disagree if they bring facts and logic to the table, but there are too many casual posters, flame-baiters and trolls with nothing to offer.

Regards

[RomanS]

NOTE 1 - Do you see any Russians here complaining that I'm making them look bad?Note: you do not speak for all Russians. All Russians here do not speak for all Russians. I do not speak for all Russians, but I'm not the one trying to absolve anyone of moral culpability for one's actions.


Did I read correctly that you used to be Dave the Dawg?... This whole thing is making me tired.

hankYes, that's me. And this whole thing tires me as well. I do not mind debating people with whom I may disagree if they bring facts and logic to the table, but there are too many casual posters, flame-baiters and trolls with nothing to offer.

Regards

Well its clearly that you speak for all of them.

[hank]

NOTE 1 - Do you see any Russians here complaining that I'm making them look bad?Note: you do not speak for all Russians. All Russians here do not speak for all Russians. I do not speak for all Russians, but I'm not the one trying to absolve anyone of moral culpability for one's actions.


Did I read correctly that you used to be Dave the Dawg?... This whole thing is making me tired.

hankYes, that's me. And this whole thing tires me as well. I do not mind debating people with whom I may disagree if they bring facts and logic to the table, but there are too many casual posters, flame-baiters and trolls with nothing to offer.

Regards

I could not agree more. I mean its not like I'm saying all Russians should burn in hell for what happened to German POWs. The point is merely that the war crimes of the German nation do not justify mistreating individual soldiers. That idea is so basic that its hard to defend. Facts just force Permii and the boys to change numbers.

Isn't it funny that RussianTexan made som off the wall comments about the number of Shermans we sent and then the numbers found back up my claim? It is always that way. The Kursk discussion was no different.

Anyway, gald to know who you are.

hank

[Herrmannek]

Did I read correctly that you used to be Dave the Dawg?... This whole thing is making me tired.

hankYes, that's me. And this whole thing tires me as well. I do not mind debating people with whom I may disagree if they bring facts and logic to the table, but there are too many casual posters, flame-baiters and trolls with nothing to offer.

Regards

Hey ask hood about restoring old callname I liked it more than current and I cant remeber this one :) . BTW I know you have broad language knowledge but wat nationality you realy are?

[LeMat]

There is one unit that clearly had Polish-speaking members - Grenadier-Regiment 281 of the 148.Infanterie-Division. I have in my possession a number of US propaganda leaflets specifically targeting Polish members of this unit, which were dropped in Italy in 1945.



Strange.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Grenadieregimenter/GR281-R.htm

It was set up in Italy in 1944. Don`t you think it is little crazy to make "polish" unit in Italy?

Anyway they weren`t Poles. Before WWII only about 65-67% of polish citizens were Poles. During WWII many people told, that they were Germans. They were called Volksdeutsches. Because before WWI (since end of the XVIII century) Poland was a part of Germany many Germans were living in Poland. And when Hitler attacked us they could told that they feel to be Germans and they could became Volksdeutsches. So they were so called "polish speaking volunteers".
BTW Germans were trying to make volunteers unit in Poland. There were about 20 polish volunteers (all criminalists) who wanted to join this unit.

[hank]

Hey ask hood about restoring old callname I liked it more than current and I cant remeber this one :) . BTW I know you have broad language knowledge but wat nationality you realy are?

I love you herrmannek. We have to have discussion about noun verb order in the English language. :D

hank

[hank]

There is one unit that clearly had Polish-speaking members - Grenadier-Regiment 281 of the 148.Infanterie-Division. I have in my possession a number of US propaganda leaflets specifically targeting Polish members of this unit, which were dropped in Italy in 1945.



Strange.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Grenadieregimenter/GR281-R.htm

It was set up in Italy in 1944. Don`t you think it is little crazy to make "polish" unit in Italy?

Anyway they weren`t Poles. Before WWII only about 65-67% of polish citizens were Poles. During WWII many people told, that they were Germans. They were called Volksdeutsches. Because before WWI (since end of the XVIII century) Poland was a part of Germany many Germans were living in Poland. And when Hitler attacked us they could told that they feel to be Germans and they could became Volksdeutsches. So they were so called "polish speaking volunteers".
BTW Germans were trying to make volunteers unit in Poland. There were about 20 polish volunteers (all criminalists) who wanted to join this unit.

C'mon lets not fight about this. I see the distinction you make and I'm sure Zapp does too. I know exactly what you mean and I would feel the same way you do if I were Polish. WE are all on the same page here and this point is tangential to the struggle. :D Poles did not create a Polish SS division or anything like that as other nationalities did, agreed. It was my mistake, I should have never brought it up.

hank

[RomanS]

hank,
I thought you were done with this topic. You just can't resist, can ya?

[hank]

hank,
I thought you were done with this topic. You just can't resist, can ya?

Yeah well i'm taking a "break" from studying. What is your excuse? Do you ever respond to direct questions in any of these discussions?

hank

[Herrmannek]

Hey ask hood about restoring old callname I liked it more than current and I cant remeber this one :) . BTW I know you have broad language knowledge but wat nationality you realy are?

I love you herrmannek. We have to have discussion about noun verb order in the English language. :D

hank

What? Are you trying to offend me? ;)

[RomanS]

hank,
I thought you were done with this topic. You just can't resist, can ya?

Yeah well i'm taking a "break" from studying. What is your excuse? Do you ever respond to direct questions in any of these discussions?

hank

Im waiting for a company meeting
I only answer those that have sence in them.

[hank]

hank,
I thought you were done with this topic. You just can't resist, can ya?

Yeah well i'm taking a "break" from studying. What is your excuse? Do you ever respond to direct questions in any of these discussions?

hank

Im waiting for a company meeting
I only answer those that have sence in them.

Sence = what? Are you soliciting a bribe or something? Is that like money [cents] or a time reference [since] or exactly what?

I guess that your response is a Permii-ism for NO.

hank

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

There is one unit that clearly had Polish-speaking members - Grenadier-Regiment 281 of the 148.Infanterie-Division. I have in my possession a number of US propaganda leaflets specifically targeting Polish members of this unit, which were dropped in Italy in 1945.



Strange.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Grenadieregimenter/GR281-R.htm

It was set up in Italy in 1944. Don`t you think it is little crazy to make "polish" unit in Italy?

Anyway they weren`t Poles. Before WWII only about 65-67% of polish citizens were Poles. During WWII many people told, that they were Germans. They were called Volksdeutsches. Because before WWI (since end of the XVIII century) Poland was a part of Germany many Germans were living in Poland. And when Hitler attacked us they could told that they feel to be Germans and they could became Volksdeutsches. So they were so called "polish speaking volunteers".
BTW Germans were trying to make volunteers unit in Poland. There were about 20 polish volunteers (all criminalists) who wanted to join this unit.

C'mon lets not fight about this. I see the distinction you make and I'm sure Zapp does too. I know exactly what you mean and I would feel the same way you do if I were Polish. WE are all on the same page here and this point is tangential to the struggle. :D Poles did not create a Polish SS division or anything like that as other nationalities did, agreed. It was my mistake, I should have never brought it up.

hank

Well, there were some Poles in Wehrmacht units. People who lived in Pomerania and Silesia (territiries joined to Reich) and weren't deportated do Generalgouvenrement (rest of occupied Polish territiries) were sometimes drafted, just like ethnic Germans.
Most of Poles were sent on Western front ( it was too dangerous to send them on Eastern- they known the territory, could join Polish or Russian partisans etc.). When they arrived on the front, they were almost instatnly surrendering do the Allies and wanted to join the Polish Army.
The largest numbers of ex-Wehrmacht Polish soldiers served in Polish 1st Armoured Division in France, and they proven on which side in that war they are :D

@ Hank:
You will love my grammar too :lol:

[hank]

The largest numbers of ex-Wehrmacht Polish soldiers served in Polish 1st Armoured Division in France, and they proven on which side in that war they are :D

@ Hank:
You will love my grammar too :lol:

Well at least you make some sence. ;)

hank

[perdurabo]

gggaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhh STOP with Poles in Wermaht here! Make a new thread or something!

[Herrmannek]

sence sense who cares :)

[RomanS]

sence sense who cares :)

thank you Hermanek

sometimes I love you a lot more than other days

[Zapp Brannigan]

Hey ask hood about restoring old callname I liked it more than current and I cant remeber this one :) . BTW I know you have broad language knowledge but wat nationality you realy are?
American. Zapp Brannigan was the captain of the Nimbus, a ship of the Democratic Order of Planets (DOOP): http://www.futurama.prv.pl/

[Viktor_s]

To Hank


So fine, I'll admit that point. You are right, Russia paid something. Doesn't change the ungratefulness of RussianTexan's irrelevant comments and the fact that Russia has not paid its debt.

I'm not going to sit around anymore while Permii and RussianTexan pop off BS. I've had my fill and that is that. The point of thsi thread was how badly those German POWs were treated.

I've said it now so many times I can't believe it, but I'll say it one more time: The Germans treated Russians very badly during WWII but that mistreatment does not and cannot justify keeping regular POWs until 1955.

Viktor, next time why don't you look something up instead of just denying it? it took me very little time to do this. www.google.com

Link to the story:http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/9941_roosevelt.html

hank

You can be polite and thoughtful, appreciated (please don't treat this as being snobby)

Yes, you are right, hank, but you see, strictly speaking (I now exercise a loophole in wording) Russia did pay, but! I didn't say that USA was paid in full, i did double check my posts. The article is correct and todays Russias debt mostly constists of the missed payments for the WW2 help plus some percentages.

Also note this, before the war researches claim that Russia had 15000 tons of gold as a National reserve, after the war there was next to nothing. The question is where do you think that money went? Mostly as a payment.

Also, I don't blame you or USA, but I'm sure you will agree that USA got a good deal during WW2 and "lend-lease" programme. Starting with boosting its economy finishing with establishing its bases around the globe:)

[Viktor_s]

Meanwhile, I need to get a new history book, maybe one written by Stalin...when did Poland invade the Soviet Union? When did Finland? Or Latvia? Estonia? Lithuania? Romania? Bulgaria? Czechoslavakia? Hungary?


I maybe blind, but I didn't quite notice anyone claiming that (mind you reading 14 pages of mostly rant is tiring). Russia was thrown out of League of Nations for Attacking Finland, who was offered a bit of land in exchange for territory north of Leningrad (now St.Petersburg), as the border was too close (35 km) which strategically is a big threat.

Poland was attacked everyone knows why, but also to reclaim the old Russian Empire land, plus create another 200 km as a buffer zone, as I'm sure Stalin was no fool and realised that too many powerful countries too close together. As for Baltic states and Bessarabia (Moldova) same old russian Empire lands. Romania Bulgaria Hungary were effectively allies and supporters of Nazi Germany.

So basically Empire wanted some room to breathe:)



As for Lend/Lease, this argument will never end because of the Soviet Era propaganda that still permeates Russian society and psyche. To admit that they were within a hair of being defeated is a loss of face. To admit further that if it wasn't for US assistance the defeat would have occurred without question would be too much to bear.


Same could be applied to USA, emphasising the America as the savior of the world, I guess like in any nations history books.



And getting mighty tired of the old Russian BS about the US not opening a second front. Last time I checked Italy was firmly attached to Europe. The US opened the second front on July 9th, 1943 with the Sicily invasion. (A sore point for the men of the "Big Red One" who fought from 1942 in Africa all the way up to the surrender in 1945 yet the Normandy Invasion units usually get the glory - "Band of Brothers", etc.)


Allied troops did invade the Sicily and got half of Italy but then stopped, and decided to invade Normandy a year later, any reason why? Plus don;t forget that Allied did insist that Germans should not have more than 15 Divisions stationed in France. And a paramount importance was Soviet offensive in the Belorussia at heavily fortified enemy that draw more Germans away from France and other regions, otherwise the D-Day might be the "Big ****-up Day"

I let you draw your own conclusions.

"
As for the US getting into wars late, well, you guys didn't invite us until your asses were sore from getting kicked."

Man, you do have a sense of humour! No irony intended. When WW2 started US did announce being neutral, while supplying goods to those who needed it:) Maybe they were planning another "Lousitania" (The reason why US went to war in WW1) or something else, but Japan changed that at Pearl Harbour.

[hank]

You can be polite and thoughtful, appreciated (please don't treat this as being snobby)

Yes, you are right, hank, but you see, strictly speaking (I now exercise a loophole in wording) Russia did pay, but! I didn't say that USA was paid in full, i did double check my posts. The article is correct and todays Russias debt mostly constists of the missed payments for the WW2 help plus some percentages.

Also note this, before the war researches claim that Russia had 15000 tons of gold as a National reserve, after the war there was next to nothing. The question is where do you think that money went? Mostly as a payment.

Also, I don't blame you or USA, but I'm sure you will agree that USA got a good deal during WW2 and "lend-lease" programme. Starting with boosting its economy finishing with establishing its bases around the globe:)

Point taken, as I said I would have been more correct had I said paid in full instead of paid any. You corrected me on that and we are past it. But please don't expect me to buy the argument that the gold is gone so USSR must have paid. If that were true then why did Yeltsin try to sell the bonds in an effort to refinance the debt?

I'm not being condescending but do you know what "selling bonds" means? Governments sell bonds for cash and then pay interest on the bonds over a period of years. With the bond comes tehGovernment's promise to pay interest on the principal and to return the principal at some future date. In return for the promise to pay interest the Government gets a lump sum of cash all at one time. Read my link, that is what Yeltsin tried to do. Unfortunately, the public [and other governments] only buys bonds when they think the seller of the bond will have the financial ability to pay the interest as well as the principle when the time comes. Not enough people believed that Russia could pay so Yeltsin was unsuccessful.

With this in mind, why would Yeltsin try to sell the bonds to pay a debt to US if you are correct and USSR had already paid? That is illogical. Yeltsin was not one to give away advantage, was he? I mean, the source that I provided is beyond reproach and you respond with anecdotal evidence of lost Gold reserves. How the hell do I or you know what happened to the Gold? If you can provide a link or some documentation that the US ever got this gold then I'll be more than happy to concede the point.

Also, think of it this way. If you borrow $100 from me on Monday and on Tuesday your mother gives you $100 to pay me back, but you lose it on the way to give it to me, do you still owe me $100? Of course you do. Creditors don't accept excuses from debtors. Pay until the debt is satisfied.

Also, I'm not condemning Russia for not paying. I mean the reality is that the US knew when it loaned the money we would never get it all back. We did loan it anyway for many of the reasons you insightfully list. What pisses me of is RussianTexan, and many other Russians I might add, saying that we did nothing or that our efforts were in some way disengenuous or not helpful. 70,000 t-34 tanks could have been built with the steel we LENT you and you have not paid for IN FULL. Think about that. 70,000 tanks. Not to mention the 7000 odd tanks already built that we delivered to you doorstep. Yet RT would slander us and question our motives. I bet the boys driving those t-34s did not question our motives, they were damned glad to be pusing Hitler's mobs back to Germany.

I don't think you are being snobby in any way, but this is really stupid. For God's sake I am not assessing any blame to Russian people, but Stalin was wrong and in violation of international law when he interred German soldiers after German surrender. Its just that simple and that is the only point I have tried to make. i don't blame individual citizens. hell, Russians are certainly less culpable than Germans because Russian citizesn were in no way responsible for Stalin, regardless of whehter you think Germans citizens put Hitler in power. either way, blaming individuals or the whole country for actions of a leader is not logical and I do not espouse this viewpoint.

I am not expressing an opinion about Stalin. I am stating a fact. You can't keep priosoners of war after cessation of hostilities. It is really that simple. When Stalin and his successors decided to keep these POWs they violated international law. I mean if I said that Stalin was a dog, or stupid, then certainly that is opinion. Violation of a law is not.

hank

[Thor]

Russia was thrown out of League of Nations for Attacking Finland, who was offered a bit of land in exchange for territory north of Leningrad (now St.Petersburg), as the border was too close (35 km) which strategically is a big threat.

You mentioned it yourself, Stalin wanted to reclaim the land of the old russian empire and that would include Finland. In 1939 the Soviet Union confronted the finns with a list of demands. They wanted large portions of ancient finnish land and to put up military bases in Finland. The finns refused to these demands and also correctly guessed that Stalin had a hidden agenda..

And the rest is history. The russians attacked Finland but were devastated by massive losses and got nowhere. In the end Stalin ordered an offensive including nearly one million men (Finland then had a population of only three million), only then they broke through the lines. Now both parties agreed to peace. Soviet Union got some land - but they had payed dearly in blood for every centimeter of it. Finland stayed free, democratic and independent.



So basically Empire wanted some room to breathe:)
You mean Lebensraum?

[Russian Texan]

Ok hank, lets take it one step at the time

You have said:

Roosevelt asked Stalin to help with the Japanese ar Yalta and Stalin refused

To which I replied
The USSR weren't able to enter the war against Japan soon because of the treaty of non-aggression signed by the two countries in April 1941 and for a duration of 5 years. But at the Yalta conference, Staline promessed to Roosevelt that his country would declare war to Japan 3 months after the end of the war in Europe. April 2nd 1945 Molotov tells the japanese diplomate Naotake Sato that the treaty of neutrality is canceled.

Until the end of the war in Europe only the Siberian army (40 divisions) was facing the japanese army (500 000 soldiers) of general Yamada stationed in Mandchouria. But Deutchland is crushed and thus Staline makes many troops movements by train and soon 1 500 000 soldiers and 5 500 tanks positioned on three fronts are ready to attack Mandchouria, all these forces are under the orders of marshal Vassilievsky.

The soviet tactic is that a first group of 4 armies (marshal Malinovsky) will attack East toward Kharbine and Moukden. A second group of 2 armies (general Pourkaiev) will attack South beside the river Tsoungari. The third group of 3 armies and one tank corps (marshal Meretzkov) will start at Vladivostok and attack West toward Kharbine. So about 60 soviet divisions will fight the 24 japanese divisions. To complement the attack the soviet Pacific fleet led by admiral Ioumachev and the 16th army will conquer the Kouriles and the South part of the Sakaline.

August 8th the diplomate Sato is told by Molotov that the USSR are now in war with Japan. The next morning the attack is launched and in 8 days 400km are conquered and so on August 16th the soviet army meet the chinese army. On August 23rd Port Arthur (conquered by the Japaneses in the 1904-1905 war) is reconquered by the Soviets.

The cease-fire had been asked to the Japaneses on August 18th. All the soviet objectives are met, 500 000 Japaneses are captured, the Soviets bring back home the factories of Mandchouria, like they did in Germany. On September 2nd lieutnant-general K. Deremyanko signs the official capitulation of Japan.
So why do you refuse to comment on that? The thing is that you run around blowing hot air and making noise but when it comes down to the knowing the facts, the best you can do is say "
Isn't it funny that RussianTexan made som off the wall comments I am the one making "off the wall comments", really?

Then you also have said:
entire Soviet Tank Corps were outfitted with Shermans for God's sake
I have asked you: "which ones?" In response you have provided with the number of Shermans provided to USSR through lend lease...

So let me ask again :Which Soviet tank corps (note plural) were outfitted entirely with Shermans?
Btw, I know the very percise answer to this question, so you won't be able to BS your way out of this one.

It is funny how you brought up Kursk battle discussion and even had the audacity to accuse me in "taking facts off the wall", darling you have never, never answered my questions that required knowledge of the subject...

My dear friend (take it with the sarcasm), the bottom line is that you are all talk and no substance... My advice to you, next time you want someone to take you seriously, don't say things like
that was on the BBC last week.
In case you didn't know, BBC has some credibility issues lately...

So lets just start with clarifying these couple of points and then we can move on to your other "bluepers", c'mon lets have a discusssion, no emotions - just historical facts, I promise, I won't even bring yo momma into conversation anymore (say "Hi" to her for me, would ya?).

What I do find somewhat entertaining and sad at the same time - you wan't to be a lawyer. Dear you leave so many opportunities for counter attacks in your statements/arguments - it's not even funny, good luck to your clients :lol: .
Professional advice: Present concrete arguments and evidence, do not leave any room for interpretation, use logic and be open minded, the last two are huge. You have a long way to go but with a right amount of practice, and help from yo momma, you can do it.

C'mon kid, shoot for the stars !!!

[StukaJr]

Here is the info I was able to dig up:


The 212th Independent Guards Tank Regiment of the 4th Guard Tank Corps was equipped with M4A2 "General Sherman" tanks

The M4A2 with diesel engine shiped to the USSR as a part of lend-lease agreement. The Americans used those tanks in marina units only since there were no problem with diesel fuel.

During the war, the USSR got the 183 Shermans with HVSS suspension bar

The reason to form all of the Shermans into one Tank Regiment (not corps) was that these vehicles came with its own motor pool, spare parts, mechanics and ammunition - not because these MBT's were in abundance or soviets lacked their own AFV's. Mixxing Lend-Lease and soviet MBT's would be a logistical nightmare.

The rest of the Lend-Lease Aid:


The first tank models that were achieve USSR were British Mk II "Matilda II", Mk III and Mk IV "Valentine". They arrived just before the Russian winter counter-offensive near Moscow. The Red Army was highly luck in tanks, so this military aid was opportunely. Mostly good for Russians was "Matilda II". It was nearly undefeated for any German tanks and AT-guns, but still was good with their 2-pound gun (about 42 mm).

Later, the Mk III "Churchill" has been accepted to the Red Army service. This tank hasn't made the quite impression on tankers because archaic design and weak armament (its "classmate" KV-1 had much better armament) and its good protection was brought to nothing by a poor maneuverability and slow speed, but most exotic "foreigner" in the Red Army was British light tank Mk VII "Tetrarch". Only 20 tanks were lended to the Soviet Union while only 177 were build. This tank weren't use in real battles but only for a green crew training.

During the winter 1941-42 the deliveries from USA has begun. For the first time this tanks took part in battles in the spring 1942. Unfortunately although on excellent conditions for the crew and quite enough firepower this tank wasn't match to the Eastern Front conditions. On responses of Russian tankers it was rather mediocre SP-gun then good tank. Nevertheless one thousand three hundred M3A3 and A5 tanks was lended to the USSR.

The more pleasant impression was left with M4 "General Sherman", which deliveries have begun in the end 1943. In USSR used only diesel variant M4A2 in several modifications. These machines have passed whole second half of war and have finished war in Europe. Some of them were used even in Berlin operation. The second, most mass machine of the American production, the M3A1 "General Stuart" light tank, did not matched for the East Front conditions and was quickly removed.

The Red Army received 2007 M4A2s (Sherman) with 75 mm gun and 2095 M4A2 Shermans with 76 mm gun. There were attempts to rearm them with Russian F-34 76.2 mm gun, resulting in so called M4M, but sense there was no shortage of 75 mm ammo only small numbers were so modified. Several Soviet tankers in Shermans won the Hero of Soviet Union. V.A. Galkin of the 7th Guard Cavalry Corp's 31st Tank Regiment. He was in M4A2.

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/lend/lend_tank/sherman_8.jpg


Soviet M4A2(76)W "General Sherman". Vienna. April 1945.

http://www.battlefield.ru/library/lend/index.html

Of course, the most important piece of equipment were the trucks - after the war, "Stuedebecker" (spelling?) became synonymous with word "truck".

[Russian Texan]

Here is the info I was able to dig up:



Thank you for the info but would you mind deliting your post?
You see, I knew the answer, but I don't thik "history guru" hank does, Thank you.

[StukaJr]

Дима, Вы чего? :hug:

I do want to make this an informative post as well - moving away from personal opinion and for history's sake, mama jokes - as you've pleaded. I myself grow tired of Hank's editorial pieces with little informative back up other than historical impressions (mix in whatever teen angst he's still hasn't gotten over). However, to be honest to Military History part of these forum - the numbers are up and he can defend his opinion with them as he likes.

Speaking of Lend-Lease not being repaid - Britain has not exactly repaid its debt if I remember last... Am I wrong?

[Russian Texan]

Дима, Вы чего? :hug:


Просто Диму этот не очень образованный человек, а попросту говоря - тупая свинья hank, достал уже...

Ну а вообще Вам того же :hug:

[Va_Dinger]

Germans treated their Russian prisoners like **** and Russians treated their German prisoners like ****.
The Western allies treated their prisoners quite well and were treated quite well too.

Exactly!

[ArtofPain]

Дима, Вы чего? :hug:


Просто Диму этот не очень образованный человек, а попросту говоря - тупая свинья hank, достал уже...

Ну а вообще Вам того же :hug:
Ребята, а не слабо вам пару ссылочек про ленд-лизовское золото перевести? Те, что я выше повесил. Просто мне трудновато будет это сделать! :oops: С работы в сеть выхожу. Да и вышеупомянутый человек предложил мне заткнутся! ;)

[hank]

RussianTexan

If you would read through the posts and try to understand the ideas it would help immensely. We have gotten bogged down in silly details and that is partly my fault. The only important point I have tried to make in this thread is that there is a Western misconception that Hitler did not intend to exterminate Communists when nothing could be further from the truth. Since that tends to help your position that Stalin/USSR was justified in keeping comm soldiers as POWs for more than 10 years after cessation of hostilities I don't really understand where you are coming from.

As an aside to that point, I have said repeatedly that I do nto accept as persuasive the argument that German warcrimes against Russians and Communists somehow justify Stalin and his successor's decision to inter Germans until 1955. I have not once even hinted that German soldiers were harmed on purpose while interred, I have only objected to the length of their internment for so long after the war. You and Permii have continually attacked me and everyone else who has tried to discuss this matter.

You have taken every little point and twisted it away from the purpose of my statements. As I pointed out to you, you have done this to me before in historical discussions. I have cited authority to back up each of my allegations and I have taken issue with your extreme positions regarding American efforts during lendlease, D Day's timing, Russians refusal to reapy debts, Russia's refusal to open a front against the Japanese between 1942 and 1945. To each of these you have leveled personal attacks against my intelligence and my credibility. I have responded in kind. I neither regret not apologize for anything I have said to you or Permii or Stuka Jr.

I have nothing but absolute disdain for you and I pity the cloud of arrogance and ignorance you labor under.

Now that that is out of the way let me address the factual issues you seem incapable of dealing with.

First, regarding Soviet Tanks Corps outfitted entirely with Sherman tanks. There is more than one example, but a quick, and I mean quick perusal of Matther Cooper's Comprehensive History of the Eastern Front revealed that during 1945, January specifically, the Soviet 1st Guards Mechanized Corps traded in its entire compliment of T-34s for Shermans with 76mm guns sent to USSR under American Lendlease. The number that Mr. Copper details is 190-odd vehicles in total. I will be glad to search through other texts in my library after I take the bar exam next week.


Did Hitler wanted to exterminate Russians - well, duh... if you still don't get it - you have a problem with reality, really...

I have said repeatedly that I don't believe extermination of Russians was an original goal for Hitler. I could be wrong about this, but I think not. There were not mass deportations of Russians. There were mass deportations to concentration camps of Russian Communists, Jews, etc. But I've not seen any evidence that Hitler purposefully tried to rid the world of every Russian. On the contrary, Hitler made it very clear that he intended to live in a world free for "world jewery" as he put it.


Did Germans torture and make experiments on their POWs - I think you know the answer...

I agree completely. Never said a word to the contrary. In fact I have repeatedly highlighted the horrific treatment Russian POWs suffered.


Did Russians torture and experiment on German POWs - NO, they simply worked them to death in labor camps, but find me a single document mentioning Soviets using gas chambers and stuff like that, I bet your ass you can't...

In all honesty I find this hard to believe, but I have no objective information to refute your claim so I have not and will nto contradict this statement. My inability to refute this claim is largely a product of the USSR's refusal to release a lot fo information, but that is neither here nor there. I won't take issue with this statement here today.


People, you seem to be forgetting that Germany attacked USSR on a Sunday morning at 4:00am, German troops killed, torchured, mutilated and raped countless millions of soviet civilians... Do you ralize that there weren't a single family in USSR that was not affected by war in one way or another?

Again, I agree completely. Nothing justifies Germany's aggression. On the other hand I don not believe that Germany's aggression nor her commission of war crimes against your countryment justify the internment.


So what do you expect soviet soldiers, after all that, to do - forgive and forget?

Never said that, noble idea but I don't expect that.


Why do you think Germans were so eager to surrender and offered almost no resistance on the western front?

Here I take issue. I asked you to give details to back this claim up. None were forthcoming.


And tell me, what is wrong with labor camps? I think it is a very logical choice/decision: people who devasted the country - helped to re-build it, sounds justified to me...

Don't take issue with this. Perfectly aceptable to expect POWs to work while interred. We did the same. Of course we relesed our prisoners before 1955.


And for those who do not agree - F*** you and yo mommas big time, my grandfather ended war in Berlin as a Lt. Colonel of the Red Army.

I really don't feel compelled to respond to this again.


P.S. he even peed on the Reichstag, my grandma told me.

Good for him, I am sure he was proud of himself.

That is your first post in its entirty. Here is my response:


Are you serious?

The only thing I regret about the whole thing is how ungrateful you ended up being. We sold you and the Brits tanks, planes, ships, food, invaded North Africa, invaded Europe twice, kicked the Japanese in the ass all the while, never got a single penny from USSR and this is the thanks we get from you. Your ungratefulness is never ending and exceeded only by you inability to respond to the points being made. Maybe isolationaism was the better strategy.

This conversation is over because you and Permii aren't capable of acknowledging any rational thoughts. I have not once said that anythingthe Germans did was right, justified, or even understandable. Your position, along with Permii, is that its OK for your country to keep POWs for 10 years after a war you won. It is beyond comprehension.

I have either backed up or amende each of my claims. And note that I ONLY addressed you claim that we faced less than first rate resistance from the Germans and that we did not assist USSR in her struggle against Germany

Here is your response:


Are you serious?
You bet yo mommas ass I am.

Not going to respond to this.


The only thing I regret about the whole thing is how ungrateful you ended up being.
I should be grateful for what????

Well for one thing 70,000 tons is unpaid for steel. Also 7000 odd tanks. I could go on but what is the point. As an aside, I am extremely grateful for the sufferings of Russian during WWII. I have said repeatedly that while I disagree with Stalin's decision that disagreement is in no way reflected upon the Russian people as a whole. Russia's efforts in WWI were and remain unprecedented.


We sold you and the Brits tanks, planes, ships, food,
never got a single penny from USSR
isn't it a contradiction?

I have repeatedly admitted that I would have been correct to say we have not been repaid in full instead of this statement. In my haste I misspoke. I ahve also provided several links to credible information about USSR and later Russia's inability and unwillingness to repay the lendlease debts.

Again here is a link to a Pravda article on the matter. I also provided a US congressional report regarding Russia's failed efforts to reapy your lendlease debt with Yeltsin proposed bond issue.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/363/9941_roosevelt.html

As well as a quote from same:


During the WWII years, the USA delivered defense technology in the sum of $46 billion to the countries of the anti-Hitler coalition. The costs made up 13 percent of America's defense spending. The lion's share of deliveries was given to England - $30.3 billion. The Soviet Union received defense technology in the sum of $9.8 billion, France $1,4 billion and China $631 million. In total, the USA supplied arms to 42 countries.

The USSR received hundreds of thousands of military vehicles and motorbikes. Lack of fuel was ameliorated with deliveries of 2.5 million tons of petroleum products. The profusion of Roosevelt's "garden hose" provided Stalin with 595 ships, including 28 frigates, 105 submarines, 77 trawlers, 22 torpedo boats, 140 anti-submarine vessels and others. The Soviet air force received 4,952 Aerocobra and 2,410 Kingcobra fighter jets. Soviet pilot Alexander Pokryshkin fought with Hitler's Luftwaffe aces in Aerocobra planes, which made him a Hero of the Soviet Union hero three times over.

The lend-lease agreement supplied the USSR with 2,7 thousand A-20 and 861 B-25 bomber planes. Soviet tank divisions received 7,056 tanks, 8,218 anti-aircraft emplacements, 131,600 machine guns and other arms.

Soviet propaganda tried to diminish the importance of the American help. Back in those years, it was said that the Soviet Union had produced 30,000 tanks and 40,000 planes since the middle of 1943. Well, as a matter of fact, this was true. However, one has to take into consideration the fact that lend and lease deliveries were made to the USSR during the most difficult period of the war - during the second half of 1942. In addition, the USSR would not have been capable of producing its arms without the lend-lease agreement: The USA shipped 2.3 million tons of steel to the USSR during the WWII years. That volume of steel was enough for the production of 70,000 T-34 tanks. Aluminum was received in the volume of 229,000 tons, which helped the Soviet aviation and tank industries to run for two years. One has to mention food deliveries as well: 3.8 million tons of tinned pork, sausages, butter, chocolate, egg powder and so on. The lend-lease agreement provided orderlies with 423,000 telephones and tens of thousands of wireless stations. Deliveries also included oil distillation equipment, field bakeries, tents, parachutes, and so on and so forth. The Soviet Union also received 15 million pairs of army boots.

Interestingly, this Pravda article makes a good case for the inexplicability of your ungratefullness but that is a point earlier made.


invaded North Africa . . . So? . . . , invaded Europe twice, . . . So?

My point was that it is disingenuous on your point to only look at the resistance we faced on European soil after D Day. Its not accurate because all the while we fought the Japanese and all this occurred after we had carried out three of the largest and most successful Beach Landings in history. Don't forget that we invaded Tunisia, Sicily, and Italy all before Normandy. This is a point that Zapp made better than I. See his posts for additional clarity on this issue.


kicked the Japanese in the ass
So did USSR, big time in 1939 but I guess they didn't mention this in your comic books

My point here is that whatever the result/outcome of Russian Japanese engagments pre-1941, Japan seemed to thrive. They somehow managed to survive that and attack Pearl Harbor and give the US quite a scare before they succumbed to superioi resources in the Pacific.


all the while, never got a single penny from USSR and this is the thanks we get from you.
Thanks for what? For opening 2nd front in Europe when the outcome was clear and 2 years later than USSR asked for it? Darling, Germany lost 85-90% of it's man power on the Eastern front, you should be thanking my grandpa

Again, I'm not going to get bogged down here about the cute names, but this again highlights my point. The US actively fought on 3 continents from 1942-1945. This is simply disingenuous on you part to discount the sacrifices US made to fight and help equip and feed your country.


Maybe isolationaism was the better strategy.
Absolutely agree, try to apply it in the modern world.

This conversation is over because you and Permii aren't capable of acknowledging any rational thoughts.
Would these be any thoughts expressed by you?

I have not once said that anythingthe Germans did was right, justified, or even understandable.
Who said I was talking to you?

It is beyond comprehension.
Yours, make a note - your comprehention.hank

This is terrible to say and I do not agree with this argument. But for some, the world might have been better had we stayed out and let Hitler and USSR fight a lot longer. We did not have t ocome and help at all, and with your quick dismissals of US efforts, I have to ask myself if 450,000-odd American lost lives deserves this slander from one who now benefits from the freedom we suffered to foster and insure. You should learn manners and respect for the hand that fed you.

Now, to your next post:


Hank, you haven't answered any of my questions, why?

Well. I submit that I have but I will again for your benefit.


Quote:
I'm not because its obvious that you don't learn.

No response. Not relevant.


Oh, trust me I do, but not from comic books and "experts"

Comic books ws brought up by CRAZY MERC. I have never read a comic book in my 33 years on this planet.



Quote: You gave me this same stupid treatment over Kursk and I set you straight

????????? Wtf are you talking about? Seeing visions, hearing voices?

Here is an example of the type of attack I suffered at your hands in that thread"


P.S. Guys, please stop learning history from the computer games

As I have repeatedly pointed out, while I find this comment both insulting and offensive, I find it highly indicative of your arrogance. I never once claimed to get infor from a game. In fact I cited extensively in that thread as well as here. You continually degrade my knowledge while all the while I offer source after source after source.


Quote:
Come up with some objective information that resistance on the Western front was weaker

Dude, I am not even going to answer that, there is being ridiculous and there is being you...

Funny, you accuse me of sidestepping issues when you blanketly and qwuickly refuse to attempt to back upthis baseless allegation. My challenge stands.


Quote: You quibble over Japan

Actually you are the one who brought it up, I just pointed that USSR engaged and defeated Japan in the summer of 1939, obviously this fact was unknown to you.

I am aware of the conflict although I never claimed to ahve any detailed knowledge of it. Agian, my POINT, was Japan was obvioulsy fully capable of long range offensive operations immediately after you "defeated" them.


Quote: Roosevelt asked Stalin to help with the Japanese ar Yalta and Stalin refused
Are you sure about that?

I am not going to quibble with you about this. if you want to fall back on a treaty then so be it. The fact remains that Russia did nothing to help in the Pacific after 1941. Nothing. Treaty breaking was not a problem for Finland or Poland. But I will cede this point. OK, you had a treaty and you simply could not break it even though USSR was fully capable of offensive ops against the Japanese. My mistake.


Quote:
Do you really mean to say that lend lease did not help your country

Where did I say that?

Here:
I should be grateful for what????
and here
invaded North Africa So?. . . , invaded Europe twice, So?

Does this clear it up for you? One last example of your claim that we did not help USSR in WWII.


Thanks for what? For opening 2nd front in Europe when the outcome was clear and 2 years later than USSR asked for it? Darling, Germany lost 85-90% of it's man power on the Eastern front, you should be thanking my grandpa

Let me be clear again. I am man enough to say thank you to your relative for his sacrifice in WWII. i too have relatives that fought, and one that died in WWII. Are you man enough?



Quote:
entire Soviet Tank Corps were outfitted with Shermans for God's sake

For the sake of the argument, how many Shermans were supplied to Russia and how many tanks total there were in the Soviet Tank Corp?
C'mon show us that your Quote:
trip to Eastern Europe in 1992, plus tons of reading outside of school
didn't go wasted

Answered above with one example. I'll provide more for your edification if that would help you.


Hank, you are good at one thing - blowing hot air. Lots of emotions with zero knowledge, go to bed, I am.

Zero knowledge? If you say so.

I think I have dealt wit heach of the dificulties you perceive. I stand ready to offer more facts as needed.

I really am tired of this, but there are a few more comments that I want to at least deal with.

First you have degrade my abilities as a lawyer. Well, so be it. I will not stoop to argue with one so obviously educated as yourself. I will have a temporary law license staring next Thursday after I take the bar that is effecive unitl I get eht bar results in November. So for at least one week, you are correct, I want to be a lweyer. Next week, however, I will be a lawyer.

I have distinguished academic credentials including BA, MA, and JD degrees from accredited state schools. I graduted from law school and have gainful employment with a large firm beginnning 5 weeks after the bar exam next week. If you feel this record is inadequte, then by all means point out the deficiencies and feel free to highlight your own accomplishments.

I want to end this by saying 2 things:

1) I don't assess any blame to the Russian people for Stalin's treatment of German POWs. That was the original point of all of this. Stalin made that decision, it was his alone and he was wrong, both on a moral and legal grounds, in that decision. I stand by that. I also make no claims about the quality of the treatment of German POWs, only taking issue with the fact that Stalin and his successors held them until 1955. It is objectively establishable that keeping common soldiers as POWs from 1045 until 1955 is a violation of numerous international laws. I tried to get ArtofPain to provide information about any criminal trials that USSR conducted to justify these incarcerations, but none were forthcoming.

2) In no way do I want to minimize nor trivialize the horrific treatment USSR suffered at German hands. I never once said that and I will not now. It is a tragedy that so many had to die over a madman's desire to rule the world.

These are the only points I have ever tried to make. I give no quarter on anything else that I have said. My factual mistatements made in haste I admit, but everything I said about you and Permi and the rest of your compatriots I stand by. I will respond to any of you requiring a response next week.

hank

[ArmedPacifist]

Hank, how do you have the patience to respond so many times. I gave up on them 10 pages ago.

[hank]

Hank, how do you have the patience to respond so many times. I gave up on them 10 pages ago.

Well, sence I am doomed to be such a terrible lawyer as RussianTexan pointed out, I figure I can at least be good at internet arguments.

Seriously, I enjoy debate and maybe somebody who reads this will see through the mindless "eye for an eye" POW mistreatment gibberish.

I also do think the West is wrong for not ackowledging that Communists were one of the targeted groups. I certainly did not know that until I went to Buchenwald and saw the names of the dead. Many, many Jews died and I don't deny that, but many, many Communists died as well and that fact goes underappreciated over here, IMO.

Plus, RussianTexan and Permii just piss me off and after reading law all afternoon and last night, this is a good vent. Better than going out drinking and taking 3-4 dats to get back in the saddle.

hank

[ArmedPacifist]

The Russians on this board are inherently closed minded, don't waste too much time trying to get them to open up to facts and sence

[Fintin]

Hank, how do you have the patience to respond so many times. I gave up on them 10 pages ago.

i must say...i enjoy hanks wit...and admire his fortitude...not to mention he has a great ass...


but to recap this whole thread...Hank rocks...

the ruskies kept german pows well after WW2 ended...note i sad germans and not nazis...these were foot soldiers forsed to serve...

then stalin killed a whole lotta ruskies but no one seems to care...

the russians on the board are pissed because someone pointed out that russia isnt the peace loving nation that they say they are




edit...i aint so swell with the inglesh...but i speak three languages...english...bad inglesh and assholeess

[hank]

Word Fintin, you are too kind. If you ask nice I'll take a few photos of my "great ass" and post them here for everyone to gander and marvel and gaze at. Like shrek said yesterday about the US, my ass may have a few pimples on it but if you stand back a little its looks as good as ever! I mean, as you say, it has fortitude.

hank

[Viktor_s]

You mentioned it yourself, Stalin wanted to reclaim the land of the old russian empire and that would include Finland. In 1939 the Soviet Union confronted the finns with a list of demands. They wanted large portions of ancient finnish land and to put up military bases in Finland. The finns refused to these demands and also correctly guessed that Stalin had a hidden agenda..

And the rest is history. The russians attacked Finland but were devastated by massive losses and got nowhere. In the end Stalin ordered an offensive including nearly one million men (Finland then had a population of only three million), only then they broke through the lines. Now both parties agreed to peace. Soviet Union got some land - but they had payed dearly in blood for every centimeter of it. Finland stayed free, democratic and independent.

The heavy price paid due to soldiers not sufficiently equipped, commandered by officers using quite outdated tactics attacking THE most fortified and modern line Europe ever knew at that time. (French line was quite old already), was a huge price, but increased introduction of badly needed machine guns (PPSH), new tanks and planes.

[Viktor_s]

Hank, If we are speaking of old debts, any chance of handing Alaska back? The 100 years rent is LOOOONG over due ;)

Also thanks for explaing the bond situation, it's pretty much the same as the National Debt, innit? :)