Jerusalem is starting to resemble Tehran

[Ordie]

Last update - 08:29 24/01/2010

Jerusalem is starting to resemble Tehran

By Yossi Sarid

Tags: Yossi Sarid, East Jerusalem




After I heard the version of the police I concluded that the police and we, "the anarchists," were at two different demonstrations. For more than three hours we stood at the outskirts of Sheikh Jarrah - not a stone was thrown, not an arm raised, not a worshiper attacked, not a settler's home broken into. But for the police's disproportionate use of force and its false arrests, as a means of punishment and score-settling, one could say the demonstration was calm and orderly.

The coarsest slogan to be seen was "Fascism shall not pass," so familiar from hundreds of previous protests, and so ineffective: Fascism has clearly passed through many, many obstacles and roadblocks.

Another sign had the great honor of being tossed into a police van together with the person holding it: "Jews and Arabs don't want to be enemies." It will be submitted to the judge as evidence corroborating the anarchistic character of the entire demonstration. Indeed, in such a delicate and explosive place as Jerusalem it's best not to wave such subversive slogans, which disturb the peace.
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In my long years of demonstrating I have never seen a protest so restrained, so not in need of a permit according to any rational interpretation of the law. Not every police officer - yea, not even every brigadier general - is authorized to declare it illegal. If the police views Friday's demonstration as a criminal act then the democratic right to demonstrate has been destroyed and Jerusalem begins resembling Tehran. Already it is not entirely clear whether what we have is the Israel Police or the Yisrael Beiteinu Police.

Since leaving active political life I have not attended demonstrations despite repeated requests; after all, there is no shortage of reasons to demonstrate in these parts. I told myself - I've paid my protesting dues, time to make way for the next generation. But Nitzan Horowitz and Ilan Ghilon and Shelly Yachimovich and Daniel Ben Simon are social-welfare-oriented MKs, and the removal of Palestinian families from their homes is not a social-welfare issue.

This time I could not refuse. All citizens, not just public figures, have a duty to resist. And so, on Friday afternoon the retired demonstrators came and filled the little square. The struggle in Sheikh Jarrah isn't over, it's just beginning. More Palestinian families are slated for transfer, and one cannot trust this government, the mayor of Jerusalem or even the city's judges to do the right thing.

When the judges rule in favor of the settlers the latter stop mocking them and celebrate the confirmation of their position; but when they rule against them, they blow them a giant raspberry. Months ago the High Court of Justice ordered the demolition of Beit Yonatan, in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan, and it is as if it never happened. It's only when they agree with the decision that they follow it.

The cabinet ministers may be unaware that in their folly they are affirming the Palestinian right of return de facto. If Palestinians who have been in their homes since 1948 can be driven out and replaced with Jewish families on the grounds of ownership from time immemorial, then Nasser Gawi can return to his home in Sarafind (Tzrifin), using the same argument. Now Gawi sits in a tent with his large family next to the home in Sheikh Jarrah they were thrown out of. As a two-time refugee he watches the settlers in the rooms that still hold the smell of his family's means - and Sarafind calls to him.

He is not alone: The Arabs of Jerusalem, too, would be glad to return to their homes in the West Jerusalem neighborhoods of Talbieh, Bak'a and Katamon. And don't tell us, prime minister and your cabinet colleagues, that it is not you who are making this dangerous journey from Sheikh Jarrah in Jerusalem to Sheikh Munis, in Ramat Aviv, but rather Irwin Moskowitz and his wife Cherna.
Source:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1144646.html

[SiEMpre_Leal]

good article but expect some negative comments on this one lol

[wagon]

Really? I think the author is drawing a long bow there. Most can do and say what they want in Israel. You cannot say the same for Iran.

[BlackWarder]

Yosi forget to mention that said houses were owned by Jews befor 48', that the "Palestinians who have been in their homes since 1948" moved into them after the Jordanians evicted all the Jews out, that after 67' said Palastinians stayed in the homes while paying rent and that the eviction order came after they stoped paying the rent...

Not to mention that unlike Teheran, in Jerusalem you won't get shot in the street by police while demostrating.

You know, I think that there should be a forum rule about starting a thread without writing anything of your own...

Warder

[RoyB]

Why do people have the need to exaggerate and over react about things? Tehran and Jerusalem are light years apart.
Guess it is all fueled by an agenda.

[Yehuda]

Why do people have the need to exaggerate and over react about things? Tehran and Jerusalem are light years apart.
Guess it is all fueled by an agenda.
of course,but what did you expected from a traitor like yosi sarid

[Yehuda]

Yosi forget to mention that said houses were owned by Jews befor 48', that the "Palestinians who have been in their homes since 1948" moved into them after the Jordanians evicted all the Jews out, that after 67' said Palastinians stayed in the homes while paying rent and that the eviction order came after they stoped paying the rent...

Not to mention that unlike Teheran, in Jerusalem you won't get shot in the street by police while demostrating.

You know, I think that there should be a forum rule about starting a thread without writing anything of your own...

Warder
yes,but the truth sells much less newspapers than the lie,and with telling the truth you will not get arab oil money

[OrangeWolf]

Well since Ordie typically doesn't post anything other than an article, we might suggest that Ordie has some intentions but that's only guessing, so here some wikipedia info on the author of the actual article (not Ordie):


Yossi Sarid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yossi_Sarid) (Hebrew: יוסי שריד‎, born 24 October 1940) is a left-wing Israeli news commentator and former politician. He served as a member of the Knesset for the Alignment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(political_party)), Ratz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratz_(political_party)) and Meretz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Movement-Meretz) between 1974 and 2006. A former Minister of Education and Minister of the Environment, he led Meretz between 1996 and 2003.

He urged Abbas to unilaterally declared "independence" in the territories:

Immediately after the declaration, celebrations will begin in the capital, East Jerusalem, and people from all over the world will join in, including Israelis. The masses of the House of Ishmael will carouse joyously through the city's neighborhoods, and especially those neighborhoods from which they have been evicted by people with priestly pretensions. This will have to be joy without any manifestations of violence, not even one stone thrown.

This week, I phoned Abbas, after not having spoken to him for at least four years. I told him everything that I am writing now. I also told him something else: What happened to the wall in Berlin 20 years ago, and to apartheid a few months later, would also happen to the occupation: It will collapse, even if attempts are made to reinforce it with nails.

Meretz currently has three out of 120 seats, sort of shows what kind of people a man such a Yossi could rely on for support I guess.

Lastly he lives in Margaliyot, which is a pretty cool place cuz you can look over the Hula valley, glad I didn't see this guy there :-|

Anyway this will be the last of Ordie's articles I will post in on this forum, I cannot see how his way of posting articles could lead to a fruitful discussion and I am not sure what his intentions are.

@Yehuda, calling people a traitor because you disagree with them doesn't sound too convincing either, at least back up why you disagree with him. Anyway I'm out (of these Ordie manufactured Haaretz fests)

[Yehuda]

he is atraitor,not for disagreeing with him,he is a traitor for,m any reasons,the main one,he was one of the ones than engineered oslo,among other things

[Moledet]

Police did a good job. Can't see what police force will authorize a demonstration that its intention is to break into people's homes and forcibly evict them (even if to their claims they don't own these homes).
They threw stones at the homes and wounded one of the residents living there, at that point I believe the police had every right to crush the demonstration.

If you think it's wrong and/or unjustified fight it in court and don't take the law to your hands and decide that you are the judge and executer.

[RoyB]

he is atraitor,not for disagreeing with him,he is a traitor for,m any reasons,the main one,he was one of the ones than engineered oslo,among other things
And that makes him a traitor? So Rabin is also a traitor?
Just sit quiet.
Although some of his actions are of disputed nature, its not at a level that will enable you to call him a traitor.

[Yehuda]

And that makes him a traitor? So Rabin is also a traitor?
Just sit quiet.
Although some of his actions are of disputed nature, its not at a level that will enable you to call him a traitor.\
yes they are,they caused the deads or hundreds of jews,lost us our most valuable and historic lands,including jerusalem,and cost us a lot of money
they are traitors,including rabin and our sadly,current president,they betrayed our country and the jewish nation

[RoyB]

\
yes they are,they caused the deads or hundreds of jews,lost us our most valuable and historic lands,including jerusalem,and cost us a lot of money
they are traitors,including rabin and our sadly,current president,they betrayed our country and the jewish nation
That's funny.. Last I remember Rabin was COS when Jerusalem was freed.
The people you talk about have done A LOT for this country, obviously more than you did.
Just because you disagree with some of their decisions and positions doesn't mean they're traitors. This is a democracy.

[Yehuda]

That's funny.. Last I remember Rabin was COS when Jerusalem was freed.
The people you talk about have done A LOT for this country, obviously more than you did.
Just because you disagree with some of their decisions and positions doesn't mean they're traitors. This is a democracy.
there are much more importants values than democracy.we dreamed for 2000 years to build a jewish state,not a democracy
what he did in 1967,has no importance,petain,was a hero in ww1,and a traitor in ww2
people changed,he changed,sadly

more than i did?maybe,what did you do?except from voting meretz,that is,helping our neighbours,of course

[Redox]

Because someone has different politicial ideas than you he is a traitor?

If you don't like that your state is a democracy where people are allowed to have different opinions you are free to go.

[Yehuda]

Because someone has different politicial ideas than you he is a traitor?

If you don't like that your state is a democracy where people are allowed to have different opinions you are free to go.
no,im free to try to change what i dont like

so,for example,vanunu wasn't a traitor to you?interesting ideas you have,hahhaa,he only had different ideas about israel's nuclear plans,that's all

[RoyB]

there are much more importants values than democracy.we dreamed for 2000 years to build a jewish state,not a democracy
what he did in 1967,has no importance,petain,was a hero in ww1,and a traitor in ww2
people changed,he changed,sadly


so,for example,vanunu wasn't a traitor to you?interesting ideas you have,hahhaa,he only had different ideas about israel's nuclear plans,that's all
You make some of the worst comparisons..

more than i did?maybe,what did you do?except from voting meretz,that is,helping our neighbours,of course
Maybe? ha.
I'm not ashamed to say that the person in question had done a lot for this country, while I did nothing.
You really should have another look at what you're saying, because you're offending the memory of those who actually fought and devoted their entire life for this country.
You should really thank them for giving you the possibility to live here.

[BlackWarder]

I always marvel how the ones that talk the most crap get so many posts in a very short time....

@Yehuda- this is not the same and you know it, there is a vast difference between selling classified information and having different political views.

Warder

[Yehuda]

I always marvel how the ones that talk the most crap get so many posts in a very short time....

@Yehuda- this is not the same and you know it, there is a vast difference between selling classified information and having different political views.

Warder
of course,ther is a hugue difference,vanunu just sayd something that the entire world knew,oslo and the creators of that monstrosity,caused the dead on hundreds,maybe thousands,of jews

[Yehuda]

You make some of the worst comparisons..

Maybe? ha.
I'm not ashamed to say that the person in question had done a lot for this country, while I did nothing.
You really should have another look at what you're saying, because you're offending the memory of those who actually fought and devoted their entire life for this country.
You should really thank them for giving you the possibility to live here.

I could say something different,they,by delivering our land to the enemy,betrayed and offended the people who gave their lives to retrieve it
as you see,the coin has two faces

I have earned myself the posibility to live here,nobody gave me anything,on the contrary

[BlackWarder]

That a BS.
I'm not a great fan of the Oslo accords but your claims are on the verg of blood libel, not to mention that the vast majority of Israel population was pro Oslo, are you also blaming all of those who voted for Rabin in the first place?

Wadrer

[Yehuda]

That a BS.
I'm not a great fan of the Oslo accords but your claims are on the verg of blood libel, not to mention that the vast majority of Israel population was pro Oslo, are you also blaming all of those who voted for Rabin in the first place?

Wadrer

I was pro oslo myself,and im ashamed of that
no,most of the israeli public,and people like myself who supported it from outside.where duped and cheated by them

blood libel?how many died by the terrorist actions that the "peace "process "unleashed?

of course,not to mention that we lost gaza,judea and samaria,and jerusalem,all for nothing

[Player]

\
yes they are,they caused the deads or hundreds of jews,lost us our most valuable and historic lands,including jerusalem,and cost us a lot of money
they are traitors,including rabin and our sadly,current president,they betrayed our country and the jewish nation

You know what is the problem with people like you? You judge people and label them by all kind of terrible names just because they have a different opinion instead of providing constructive arguments to prove why your political opponents are wrong. Rabin and Netanyahu were elected by the majority to lead the country, it means that the majority of Israelis have chosen THEIR political agenda, and thus if you call them traitors then you might call the majority of Israelis who have voted for them traitors as well.


we dreamed for 2000 years to build a jewish state,not a democracy

You sound like somebody who would love to live under Taliban's regime, but they aren't Jewish, I pity you...

[Yehuda]

You know what is the problem with people like you? You judge people and label them by all kind of terrible names just because they have a different opinion instead of providing constructive arguments to prove why your political opponents are wrong. Rabin and Netanyahu were elected by the majority to lead the country, it means that the majority of Israelis have chosen THEIR political agenda, and thus if you call them traitors then you might call the majority of Israelis who have voted for them traitors as well.



You sound like somebody who would love to live under Taliban's regime, but they aren't Jewish, I pity you...

hitler was also voted,so??elections are not sacred,the state is much more important,the national honour,our land,our history,the mood of the people,is not important at all,it changes all the time
by the way,if tomorrow,we decided to vote a kahane kind of guy (something that we need dearly,btw),would you respect it also?hahaha
you whant constructive arguments?what can be more constructive that hundreds of jewish lives lost,and many valuable land,for nothing,and now,soon,we will have another enemy state surrounding us

no,i sound like somebody who wants to live under a strong government

and yes,im a jew,a proud jew,and i want to live in a jewish state,not a taliban state,but a jewish state,if i wanted a democracy or an expensive car,i would have stayed home,didnt had to came here for that

[GB_FXST]

of course,ther is a hugue difference,vanunu just sayd something that the entire world knew,oslo and the creators of that monstrosity,caused the dead on hundreds,maybe thousands,of jews

With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that Oslo was folly. At the time, it was welcomed by the majority as a symbol of great hope and promise.

Were any laws broken by the Government when Oslo was adopted? Were any laws pertaining to national security or classified information broken?

We both know that no laws, especially those pertaining to national security, were broken.

It is inappropriate to call one a traitor who has not been charged with, let alone convicted of, treason. Israel, after all, is a nation governed by law.

[Yehuda]

Thats why the creators of the REAL democracy,the greeks,not the monstrosity we have now,knew that only a few,where qualified to choose the government,and to direct it

[Yehuda]

With the benefit of hindsight, we can see that Oslo was folly. At the time, it was welcomed by the majority as a symbol of great hope and promise.

Were any laws broken by the Government when Oslo was adopted? Were any laws pertaining to national security or classified information broken?

We both know that no laws, especially those pertaining to national security, were broken.

It is inappropriate to call one a traitor who has not been charged with, let alone convicted of, treason. Israel, after all, is a nation governed by law.

told you,i also supported oslo,in fact,i whent in argentina,several times,to those stupid rallies in memory of rabin

if the law was broken,is irrelevant,laws can be made,unmade or broken,we have much more important this in stake here,that the irrelevant,and hopefully,soon to be ended,israeli democracy here,we have the nation here at stake
if i remember well,the exact charges laid against vanunu wherent treason,so he wasnt a traitor,by your definition??
the lives of hundreds of jews,are much more important than some irrelevant law,made by an irrelevant parliament

[BlackWarder]

Sigh..... so only males, sons of fathers that were citizens, that have done their military service should be allowed to vote?

Mate, way don't you try to go and live in Me'a-Shearim for a bit and tell us if you still want to throw a way democracy....

Warder

[GB_FXST]

hitler was also voted,so??elections are not sacred,the state is much more important,the national honour,our land,our history,the mood of the people,is not important at all,it changes all the time

... snip ...



That is a poor example. It is not so simple to say that Hitler was elected and then suddenly usurped power to become a dictator. Even Hitler had to work through a democratic and legislative process to amend the constitution and attain the powers of a dictator. There were checks in place to prevent Hitler's power grab. That those checks failed does not serve as an indictment against the entire concept of democracy. Human factors and failures need to be considered in this analysis.

[Yehuda]

That is a poor example. It is not so simple to say that Hitler was elected and then suddenly usurped power to become a dictator. Even Hitler had to work through a democratic and legislative process to amend the constitution and attain the powers of a dictator. There were checks in place to prevent Hitler's power grab. That those checks failed does not serve as an indictment against the entire concept of democracy. Human factors and failures need to be considered in this analysis.
many more stupid leaders where voted,do i need to remind you,your last 3 presidents?
elections are not sacred,the nation is

[GB_FXST]

told you,i also supported oslo,in fact,i whent in argentina,several times,to those stupid rallies in memory of rabin

if the law was broken,is irrelevant,laws can be made,unmade or broken,we have much more important this in stake here,that the irrelevant,and hopefully,soon to be ended,israeli democracy here,we have the nation here at stake
if i remember well,the exact charges laid against vanunu wherent treason,so he wasnt a traitor,by your definition??
the lives of hundreds of jews,are much more important than some irrelevant law,made by an irrelevant parliament

Actually, I think he was convicted of espionage - violation of laws pertaining to classified material.

[Yehuda]

Sigh..... so only males, sons of fathers that were citizens, that have done their military service should be allowed to vote?

Mate, way don't you try to go and live in Me'a-Shearim for a bit and tell us if you still want to throw a way democracy....

Warder
who told you,i like the mea shearim nutjobs?
you dont have to have,a non democratic goverment,to turn into a theocracy
china is not,spain was not,and many more countries,wherent

[Yehuda]

Actually, I think he was convicted of espionage - violation of laws pertaining to classified material.
espionage,not treason,for treason,the israeli code of law,allows death penalty,he didn't even got life in jail

[GB_FXST]

many more stupid leaders where voted,do i need to remind you,your last 3 presidents?
elections are not sacred,the nation is

I am not about to debate the merits of 1) a representative democracy and broad constituent participation against 2) totalitarianism (including a beneficeint dictatorship).

The benefits and advantages of the former over the latter are self evident.

[Yehuda]

I am not about to debate the merits of 1) a representative democracy and broad constituent participation against 2) totalitarianism (including a beneficeint dictatorship).

The benefits and advantages of the former over the latter are self evident.
yes?you can tell that to china,the next superpower
and if you belive than in the usa,you are really deciding who is going to be the next president,you are delusional

and i repeat again,our ambition for 2000 years,was to create a jewish state here,nobody said nothing about democracy
the state,the nation,is sacred,the form of government,is something that can be changed with the realities of the world,or the local needs

[BlackWarder]

Well I have no intention in living in any kind of nation that you **** up....

But just out of curiosity, what is your preferred government system now days?

Warder

[Yehuda]

Well I have no intention in living in any kind of nation that you **** up....

But just out of curiosity, what is your preferred government system now days?

Warder
don't worry,sadly,nobody will listen to me,people have been brainwashed for much too long

i would preffer,what we called,a strong hand government,personal liberties,yes,nothing in the way or political liberties
no more kowtowing to arabs,europeans,or americans,a regime that will allow to stand in our own 2 feet like men,not like now

[RoyB]

In other words - isolated and poor?

[BlackWarder]

That a lot of nothiing in so few words.....

You haven't answered my questions so I'll ask again

what is your preferred government system?

Warder

[Yehuda]

In other words - isolated and poor?
china is poor??p-)p-)p-)

nobody will isolate a nuclear power,and if we didnt gave up our sinai oil,we will be self sufficient in energy
in fact,what is saving north korea for diying from hunger are his nuclear weapons

[Yehuda]

That a lot of nothiing in so few words.....

You haven't answered my questions so I'll ask again

what is your preferred government system?

Warder

i have answered you

I would preffer,what we called,a strong hand government,personal liberties,yes,nothing in the way or political liberties
no more kowtowing to arabs,europeans,or americans,a regime that will allow to stand in our own 2 feet like men,not like now

Can be,a military junta,for example,or a civlian one,with a technocratic cabinet

[NimDod]

china is poor??p-)p-)p-)

nobody will isolate a nuclear power,and if we didnt gave up our sinai oil,we will be self sufficient in energy
in fact,what is saving north korea for diying from hunger are his nuclear weapons

Have you been to China?
The average Chinese is Poor, compared to the average western/Living in a democratic country person.

The Sinai dont have that much oil in it - if it did, Egypt wouldnt have been so poor.

And as for North Korea

Negative trends in economic growth and food production in North Korea have increased rates of undernourishment and underweight in children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hunger_Index
And if it wasnt for the food aid they receive, they would have starved

North Korea: Ending Food Aid Would Deepen Hunger
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/10/09/north-korea-ending-food-aid-would-deepen-hunger

[BlackWarder]

Shudder, honestly people like you scare me.... I suggest that you read some history books, or better yet go talk to some folks from the USSR or Nazi germany...

Warder

[Yehuda]

Shudder, honestly people like you scare me.... I suggest that you read some history books, or better yet go talk to some folks from the USSR or Nazi germany...

Warder
authoritharian governments does not mean nazi germany or russia
all of latin america had them,spain had the,portugal also,greece also
in fact,jews lived very well under those governments

before ww1,austro-hungary and germany,where like that also,and many jews gave their lives for them

[Yehuda]

Have you been to China?
The average Chinese is Poor, compared to the average western/Living in a democratic country person.

The Sinai dont have that much oil in it - if it did, Egypt wouldnt have been so poor.

And as for North Korea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hunger_Index
And if it wasnt for the food aid they receive, they would have starved

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/10/09/north-korea-ending-food-aid-would-deepen-hunger

of course the average chinese is poor,but much richer than what he was 50 years ago.
do you think that everyone in usa is rich?the ones that are not poor are in debts to their eyebrows,in fact,his country is in the same situation,go to lousiana,baltimore,detroit,and many other parts of america,and tell me how rich they are

precisely,and the aid that north korea receives,is because of their nuclear arsenal,if not,they will let them die from hunger,like they do in africa
an insignificant country has everyone dancing to their tunes,i greatly admire that

[BlackWarder]

Your definition of very well and my definition of it are probably very different....

The average westerner is alot more richer than he was 50 years ago GDP per capita in china is around 6000$ just as a point of refferance Israel is around 30,000$, I wouldn't want to live in China not now or 10 years from now, it might be the fastest growing economy in the world but theaverage standart of living got a long way to go until it will cross the world average.

As for NK, the aid has little to do with their Nuclear arsenal.

Warder

[Yehuda]

Your definition of very well and my definition of it are probably very different....

The average westerner is alot more richer than he was 50 years ago GDP per capita in china is around 6000$ just as a point of refferance Israel is around 30,000$, I wouldn't want to live in China not now or 10 years from now, it might be the fastest growing economy in the world but theaverage standart of living got a long way to go until it will cross the world average.

As for NK, the aid has little to do with their Nuclear arsenal.

Warder
of course,it has a long way to go,we have it also,but it s growing,and sooner or later,the richness of the country will spill to the regular people
please,did you see the ppor black folks in katrina or baltimore?do you think they made 30 000 a year?
i wouldt want to live in china also,but i have no interest in living in many other countries in the world,including usa,btw

[NimDod]

precisely,and the aid that north korea receives,is because of their nuclear arsenal,if not,they will let them die from hunger,like they do in africa
an insignificant country has everyone dancing to their tunes,i greatly admire that

And you would like us to trade places with them?

[BlackWarder]

That is not necessarily true, for example in the US from 1990 to 2006 the earnings (adjusted for inflation) of individual workers, in private industry and services, increased by less than 0.5% per year while GDP (adjusted for inflation) increased about 3.6% per year over the same period[Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product)]

Your world view is naive at best, be caerfull of what you wish for cause one day your benevolent dictator will decide that it's in the nation best interest to shot you and confound every thing you own and there will be nothing you could do about it.

Warder

[Yehuda]

And you would like us to trade places with them?
not at all,but they are a good example of what you can achieve with nuclear power and strong will
i would like to have a gut sy people and a gutsy government that stand for us,instead of kissing the butts or the americans,arabs or europeans
please,look inside israel,arabs,run riot inside here,do wathever they want,and we don't do anything,come once to jerusalem and you will see it

[Yehuda]

That is not necessarily true, for example in the US from 1990 to 2006 the earnings (adjusted for inflation) of individual workers, in private industry and services, increased by less than 0.5% per year while GDP (adjusted for inflation) increased about 3.6% per year over the same period[Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product)]

Your world view is naive at best, be caerfull of what you wish for cause one day your benevolent dictator will decide that it's in the nation best interest to shot you and confound every thing you own and there will be nothing you could do about it.

Warder
maybe,and one day,some arab, can decide to blow some bus that im traveling,and my weakly brothers and my weakly government wont do anithing about it,except blow some tunnels,and make a lot of fuss about it,while their,laugh all day

[Ordie]

Playing Cops and Solders are two dissimilar roles.

East Jerusalem is literally on the front lines where a police struggle being a peace officer or a soldier.

Israel does not want a repeat of the events in Umm al-Fahm in 2000 were 13 Israeli Citizens were killed by the police during a demonstration.

[Yehuda]

Playing Cops and Solders are two dissimilar roles.

East Jerusalem is literally on the front lines where a police struggle being a peace officer or a soldier.

Israel does not want a repeat of the events in Umm al-Fahm in 2000 were 13 Israeli Citizens were killed by the police during a demonstration.
maybe we should repeat that,maybe we should gave them something to be afraid of us

[NimDod]

look inside israel,arabs,run riot inside here,do wathever they want,and we don't do anything,come once to jerusalem and you will see it

Pretty much everyone can "run riot inside here,do wathever they want" in this country - that's a result of a our courts who are too soft with criminals, regardless of their race or religion.

Peronally, I'm more worried about the Haredim riots in Jerusalem than the Arab Riot, after one attacked my girlfriend's fater because he dared to read a non-Haredi newspaper in one of the "Cosher" bus lines on the Jerusalem to Haifa line.
And I agree with the Headline of this thread. Since gays were not allowed to march in their own capital, that place does remind me more and more of Taharan.

[BlackWarder]

maybe we should repeat that,maybe we should gave them something to be afraid of us

http://faninterference.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/facepalm.jpg
10char

Warder

[NimDod]

Israel does not want a repeat of the events in Umm al-Fahm in 2000 were 13 Israeli Citizens were killed by the police during a demonstration.

Personally, with taking the rist of being political-incorrect , I dont give a damn if 130 such as those "demonstrators" who happend to riot, murder another Israeli citizen (which was the first Israeli citizen who was killed on that day by a rock thrown from a bridge when he was driving on the road to Haifa, but somehow he's always forgotten. His name was Jean Bechor) were killed, and tried to attack police officers are killed.

And if your idea of a "demonstration" is to throw fire bombs at the police, than I dont want to live where ever you do.

[Yehuda]

Pretty much everyone can "run riot inside here,do wathever they want" in this country - that's a result of a our courts who are too soft with criminals, regardless of their race or religion.

Peronally, I'm more worried about the Haredim riots in Jerusalem than the Arab Riot, after one attacked my girlfriend's fater because he dared to read a non-Haredi newspaper in one of the "Cosher" bus lines on the Jerusalem to Haifa line.
And I agree with the Headline of this thread. Since gays were not allowed to march in their own capital, that place does remind me more and more of Taharan.
not specially fond of haredim,but they are a nuisance,not a security danger

[Yehuda]

http://faninterference.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/facepalm.jpg
10char

Warder

how many riots china had after tianamen square??hahahha

[Ordie]

And if your idea of a "demonstration" is to throw fire bombs at the police, than I dont want to live where ever you do.

Then you haven't been to Argentina when a food riots happens. Or in Seoul during a labor strike.

This type of stuff happens everywhere and the cops deal with it without real bullets.

[BlackWarder]

Nanjing anti-African protests (1988) - Nanjing
Ghulja Incident, Xinjiang, China (1997)
2008 Tibetan unrest (2008) - Tibet, China
2008 Uyghur unrest
June 2009 Shaoguan incident - Guangdong, China
July 2009 Ürümqi riots - Xinjiang, China

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/world/asia/06china.html

Just a few....

Warder

[NimDod]

This type of stuff happens everywhere and the cops deal with it without real bullets.

Than I'm glad it doesnt happen in here very often.
If someone tries to kill me or anyone else as part his demonstration - I expect the police to shoot him on the spot.

[Eye]

Than I'm glad it doesnt happen in here very often.
If someone tries to kill me or anyone else as part his demonstration - I expect the police to shoot him on the spot.
If he is aiming at you with gun, I fully agree. If he is throwing rocks, It's highly disputable.

[BlackWarder]

Then you haven't been to Argentina when a food riots happens. Or in Seoul during a labor strike.

This type of stuff happens everywhere and the cops deal with it without real bullets.

They use tear gass and rubber bullets, just like in here.....

That doesn't mean that throwing acid bags and molotove bottles should be taken lightly...

Warder

[NimDod]

If he is aiming at you with gun, I fully agree. If he is throwing rocks, It's highly disputable.

I'm no expert, but I belive that a rock that's hits a car that goes 100Km/h in the front window has more potential to kill someone than a bullet.
The same goes with a firebomb.

My point was that those "13 Israeli Citizens were killed by the police during a demonstration" were no different than any criminal who's killed in a gunfight with the police, and I dont give a damn if the events in Umm al-Fahm in 2000 happen again as long as no law-abiding citizen or law-inforcer is hurt in the process.

[Hollis]

If he is aiming at you with gun, I fully agree. If he is throwing rocks, It's highly disputable.


Not necessarily. Lethal weapons are not limited to firearms. NimDod's key part of his statement was, "If someone tries to kill me or anyone", kill is the key word. It is not disputable.

[IDF_TANKER]

And yet another pointless Israel-related thread, full of endlessly reiterated BS and flamewars...

[NimDod]

And yet another pointless Israel-related thread, full of endlessly reiterated BS and flamewars...

Well, this is an Israel-related thread.
And I dont think it's pointless, as long as we're on topic.

[IDF_TANKER]

Well, this is an Israel-related thread.
And I dont think it's pointless, as long as we're on topic.

I disagree. Just look at the topic of thread (which is arguably a flamebait on its own) and now we are talking about a decade old events.

[Yehuda]

And yet another pointless Israel-related thread, full of endlessly reiterated BS and flamewars...
debating is far for pointless,if you are not interested,nobody is forcing you to participate in the debate

[Yehuda]

Nanjing anti-African protests (1988) - Nanjing
Ghulja Incident, Xinjiang, China (1997)
2008 Tibetan unrest (2008) - Tibet, China
2008 Uyghur unrest
June 2009 Shaoguan incident - Guangdong, China
July 2009 Ürümqi riots - Xinjiang, China

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/world/asia/06china.html

Just a few....

Warder
and something happened ?please,nobody even remembers those

[Octavariable]

and something happened ?please,nobody even remembers those


Well, Warder is 1 who did, so there goes your claim, like many others, down the drain.

[Yehuda]

Well, Warder is 1 who did, so there goes your claim, like many others, down the drain.
warder didnt remembered,warder made a google search
chinese government is one of the most stable of the world,precisely,because there is very liitle to none,dissent,everyone does what they tell them to do,and shuts up,like good boys

[Octavariable]

That's called totalitarianism, and you are so for it, what preventing you from going and living in China/Iran/NK? You'll enjoy yourself, and we won't have to hear your crap all day long.

[Yehuda]

That's called totalitarianism, and you are so for it, what preventing you from going and living in China/Iran/NK? You'll enjoy yourself, and we won't have to hear your crap all day long.
this is a debating forum,and i will give my opinions,if you like it or not,i dont care

im a jew,i want to live here in israel,and i want to change the situation here,i came here to israel,because i wanted,not because i had to

also,you dont know anything ,many jews around the world have supported totalitarian or authoritarian governments,what do you think?the only country that has jews outside israel is the usa?

[Atlantic Friend]

warder didnt remembered,warder made a google search
chinese government is one of the most stable of the world,precisely,because there is very liitle to none,dissent,everyone does what they tell them to do,and shuts up,like good boys


this is a debating forum,and i will give my opinions,if you like it or not,i dont care

im a jew,i want to live here in israel,and i want to change the situation here,i came here to israel,because i wanted,not because i had to

also,you dont know anything ,many jews around the world have supported totalitarian or authoritarian governments,what do you think?the only country that has jews outside israel is the usa?

Pretty ironic - but historically not that original - that freedom of speech is used to defend the right to preach against it.

I'm sure it will do Israel a lot of good to join that fantastic club of Near-East countries where "there is very liitle to none,dissent,everyone does what they tell them to do,and shuts up,like good boys". I mean, God forbid Israel remains that terrible island of shambolic democracy when there are much more efficient political systems available.

[lunte]

Really? I think the author is drawing a long bow there. Most can do and say what they want in Israel. You cannot say the same for Iran.

No sure I would agree with that one... You can say what you like as long as it is what they want to hear...

[Yehuda]

Pretty ironic - but historically not that original - that freedom of speech is used to defend the right to preach against it.

I'm sure it will do Israel a lot of good to join that fantastic club of Near-East countries where "there is very liitle to none,dissent,everyone does what they tell them to do,and shuts up,like good boys". I mean, God forbid Israel remains that terrible island of shambolic democracy when there are much more efficient political systems available.

did it help us gain some political legitimacy in the world being a democracy?none at all

south korea,taiwan,spain,greece,portugal,brazil,etc and many more other countries,where,sometime in their history,recent one i mean,undemocratic governments,and they did fine,and jews there,had a very good life
china is not democratic until this day,and is the next ruling power in the world.

[GiladS]

No sure I would agree with that one... You can say what you like as long as it is what they want to hear...

Who is "they"?

[lunte]

Who is "they"?

The general israeli on the street. They do not tend to like the fact that there are other ways of looking at the world than their way.

[Atlantic Friend]

did it help us gain some political legitimacy in the world being a democracy?none at all

south korea,taiwan,spain,greece,portugal,brazil,etc and many more other countries,where,sometime in their history,recent one i mean,undemocratic governments,and they did fine,and jews there,had a very good life
china is not democratic until this day,and is the next ruling power in the world.

Ye-es, Jews had it a lot better in undemocratic states as we all know, and I'm sure turning Fascist will help Israel tremendously. Nothing spells success like a local version of Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer, after all.

Honestly, Yehuda, when I first read Israeli posters demand that for the love of God you'd refrain from posting, I first thought they were way too harsh. But now, really, I'm starting to see the light there.

Seriously, this makes as much sense as if you were saying "hey, since blood libel abounds anyway, why don't we really sacrifice young Christian virgins? After all, not doing it didn't help us gain legitimacy"

[RoyB]

The general israeli on the street. They do not tend to like the fact that there are other ways of looking at the world than their way.
Really? :-|

[GiladS]

The general israeli on the street. They do not tend to like the fact that there are other ways of looking at the world than their way.


So how do you explain people like Yossi Sarid?

[Yehuda]

Ye-es, Jews had it a lot better in undemocratic states as we all know, and I'm sure turning Fascist will help Israel tremendously. Nothing spells success like a local version of Ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Führer, after all.

Honestly, Yehuda, when I first read Israeli posters demand that for the love of God you'd refrain from posting, I first thought they were way too harsh. But now, really, I'm starting to see the light there.
do you know how much money south african jews made during apartheid?or during pinochet time in chile?or during torrijos time in panama> and i can give to you much more examples
authoritarian does not mean hitler
in fact,you can check about when many of the israeli made weapon systems where sold to south africa of south america,and you will be surprised

and i dont care what some of the israeli members say,they dont like me,i dont like them

[Yehuda]

The general israeli on the street. They do not tend to like the fact that there are other ways of looking at the world than their way.


i wonder,how,the average brit on the street will react when some argentinians say,that the falklands belong to them

[Atlantic Friend]

do you know how much money south african jews made during apartheid?or during pinochet time in chile?or during torrijos time in panama> and i can give to you much more examples
authoritarian does not mean hitler

Wow. Somewhere, the jaw of a thousand antisemites hate preachers fall open as they fiind their issues hijacked.

"Hell, who cares about freedom or oppressing people? WHo cares about apartheid and states based on racial superiority? We Jews get to make money!"

Now please do tell me you work for Stormfront or IRNA.

[lunte]

i wonder,how,the average brit on the street will react when some argentinians say,that the falklands belong to them

Not very well I agree but then again most Brits thought it was the Faroe Islands and not the Falkland Islands that got 'invaded' / 'recaptured' call it what you like.
They did have a referendum though to find out what the people of the Falklands wanted and they wanted to remain British so I suppose Maggie felt obliged

[Yehuda]

Wow. Somewhere, the jaw of a thousand antisemites hate preachers fall open as they fiind their issues hijacked.

"Hell, who cares about freedom or oppressing people? WHo cares about apartheid and states based on racial superiority? We Jews get to make money!"
made money,educated their children in jewish school,traveled free,prayed freely,had more or less,free zionist youth groups,what more do you need?

[Kaplanr]

The general israeli on the street. They do not tend to like the fact that there are other ways of looking at the world than their way.

Is that the Labor party general Israeli, the Likudnik GI, the National Religious or the Haredi? Your brush is so wide it won't fit in the paint can. We're just like most anyone else - I can dis the family, you can't.

[Yehuda]

Not very well I agree but then again most Brits thought it was the Faroe Islands and not the Falkland Islands that got 'invaded' / 'recaptured' call it what you like.
They did have a referendum though to find out what the people of the Falklands wanted and they wanted to remain British so I suppose Maggie felt obliged
its not the subject of the thread,but never had a referendum,on the islands,you are confused with gibraltar

nobody likes criticism,brits,israeli,americans,french,all the same,nobody likes being critized

[Eye]

do you know how much money south african jews made during apartheid?or during pinochet time in chile?or during torrijos time in panama> and i can give to you much more examples
authoritarian does not mean hitler
I don't think fact that some group of people made big money in totalitarian state made it good place to live for every inhabitant of that country. Generally freedom for everyone, not only for some with good connections, is much more important. Nobody will fight for state in which he doesn't have freedom.

[Yehuda]

I don't think fact that some group of people made big money in totalitarian state made it good place to live for every inhabitant of that country. Generally freedom for everyone, not only for some with good connections, is much more important. Nobody will fight for state in which he doesn't have freedom.
we are talking here about jews,not all people
and totalitarian is not the same as authoritarian
and who told you that being democratic means that is good to live it?ask a black person in baltimore or new orleans,or a mexican in chiapas,or an israeli in dimona or kiriat shmona,for example,how good it is

[Atlantic Friend]

made money,educated their children in jewish school,traveled free,prayed freely,had more or less,free zionist youth groups,what more do you need?

"Fascism. What more do Jews need?".

If you really don't know what more you need, or really believe that the key to Jewish happiness and prosperity is Fascism worldwide (for some reason jews cannot make as much money in democracy, interesting premise you've got there), then I really pity you, Yehuda - but only this much, mind you. I tend to be short on pity money for Stormtroopers, regardless of their exact creed.

[lunte]

you can always criticise the french - they smell of garlic!

I suppose criticism is a result of free speech and that is never a bad thing

[GiladS]

I suppose criticism is a result of free speech and that is never a bad thing

Which exists in Israel just as in any other western democracy.

[Yehuda]

"Fascism. What more do Jews need?".

If you really don't know what more you need, or really believe that the key to Jewish happiness and prosperity is Fascism worldwide (for some reason jews cannot make as much money in democracy, interesting premise you've got there), then I really pity you, Yehuda - but only this much, mind you. I tend to be short on pity money for Stormtroopers, regarding of their exact creed.
you dont seem to understand,fascims is not the same as undemocratic,and you can have powerful fascit politician in democracy also,le pen or the liga nord,very good examples
by the way,did you knew that many jews in france voted for le pen??

you dont need more,if you have everithing,you will not have the need to complain

[Eye]

and totalitarian is not the same as authoritarian

Actually I can agree on that. Sometimes authoritarian system seems to me better than democracy where everybody has right to vote. Authoritarian without any nationalist privileges.

[Atlantic Friend]

you dont seem to understand,fascims is not the same as undemocratic,and you can have powerful fascit politician in democracy also,le pen or the liga nord,very good examples
by the way,did you knew that many jews in france voted for le pen??

you dont need more,if you have everithing,you will not have the need to complain

IRNA called. They have a job for you.

[Yehuda]

Actually I can agree on that. Sometimes authoritarian system seems to me better than democracy where everybody has right to vote. Authoritarian without any nationalist privileges.
in fact,if you see the original conception of the idea of democracy,means demos people and cratos power,but not everyone qualified to be part of the people,hahahha

[Yehuda]

IRNA called. They have a job for you.
wrong,iran is not only an authoritarian regime,is also a theocracy,i never supported a theocracy

keep triying,hhhahaha

[Connaught Ranger]

The author of the article presents a slanted view of the truth, its easy to detect where his sympathies truly lie.

[Connaught Ranger]

you dont seem to understand,fascims is not the same as undemocratic,and you can have powerful fascit politician in democracy also,le pen or the liga nord,very good examples
by the way,did you knew that many jews in france voted for le pen??

you dont need more,if you have everithing,you will not have the need to complain

By the way, you will find when making outlandish claims that you really do need to post a source before anybody will believe you.:roll:

Connaught Ranger.

[Yehuda]

By the way, you will find when making outlandish claims that you really do need to post a source before anybody will believe you.:roll:

Connaught Ranger.
tomorrow you will have it

[Atlantic Friend]

tomorrow you will have it

Don't forget to add elements about how much Fascist or "undemocratic" states have been so beneficial to the Jews! I mean, Stormfront might be a little low on talking points lately.

[Connaught Ranger]

i wonder,how,the average brit on the street will react when some argentinians say,that the falklands belong to them

The Argentinians can say it,

(and seeing you lived there, you probably heard it a lot and agreed with them)

but the average British citizen know they are full of s h i t.

The average British soldier knows the Argie-bargie army can not take it by force.

And Argentinians know this is just a smokescreen to take peoples minds of those who disappeared

during the rule of the Argie military-junta, and the current economic fvck-up.

You really do tend to scramble, to find justification for your idiotic comments,

even to the extent of dragging many off topic comments into your posts. (rants).

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

"Fascism. What more do Jews need?".

If you really don't know what more you need, or really believe that the key to Jewish happiness and prosperity is Fascism worldwide (for some reason jews cannot make as much money in democracy, interesting premise you've got there), then I really pity you, Yehuda - but only this much, mind you. I tend to be short on pity money for Stormtroopers, regarding of their exact creed.

But Yehuda fits the physical profile of a "super-trooper storm-trooper," one has only to see the picture of himself on this forum that he posted, in service of his country.

Connaught Ranger:lol:

[Yehuda]

here you have them,im a men of my word

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/04/Haaretz_LePen.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/841445.html

[Yehuda]

But Yehuda fits the physical profile of a "super-trooper storm-trooper," one has only to see the picture of himself on this forum that he posted, in service of his country.

Connaught Ranger:lol:
well,not everyone can be a 'super macho'" like you,in the service of the irish army

[Connaught Ranger]

here you have them,im a men of my word

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/04/Haaretz_LePen.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/841445.html

Your first link leads to a known Nazi History revisionist (David Irving) site, so looses any credibility
but explains where you get your wacko ideas from.

The second link does not present any concrete evidence that many jewish people voted for Le Pen at all.

So your claims = Major Fail (as usual).:roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

well,not everyone can be a 'super macho'" like you,in the service of the irish army

I have never referred to myself as "super-macho" anywhere on this Forum,

and unlike you, I do not go round spouting support for fascism.

So another major FAIL for you, my little chunky storm-trooper wannabe.

And by the way the correct designation for the Irish Military is coincidentally the I.D.F.

Irish Defense Forces.

Connaught Ranger.

[Karaahmetoglu]

warder didnt remembered,warder made a google search
chinese government is one of the most stable of the world,precisely,because there is very liitle to none,dissent,everyone does what they tell them to do,and shuts up,like good boys

I and a lot of other people from where I am clearly remember this one.


Nanjing anti-African protests (1988) - Nanjing
Ghulja Incident, Xinjiang, China (1997)
2008 Tibetan unrest (2008) - Tibet, China
2008 Uyghur unrest
June 2009 Shaoguan incident - Guangdong, China
July 2009 Ürümqi riots - Xinjiang, China

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/world/asia/06china.html

Just a few....

Warder

[Atlantic Friend]

you can always criticise the french - they smell of garlic!

Would you be afraid I could be tempted by your purty Honddu mouth, lad? ;)

[Kaplanr]

in fact,if you see the original conception of the idea of democracy,means demos people and cratos power,but not everyone qualified to be part of the people,hahahha

And who makes the determination about who is/isn't? You, Jefferson, Hamilton, Peron, Ben-Gurion, Kahane? Is it just Jews in Israel or can the Druze qualify too? Is it limited to the Sephardim and Ashkenazim, or just one of the groups. If it's dome like it was in colonial Virginia (white, over 21, Protestant and a land-owner) do kibbutzniks get more say because they "own" more land?

I'll tell you what the problem with your thinking is, and it has little to do with upsetting my preference for representative democracy. Your choice simply allows the citizenry to avoid the unpleasant task of making choices/decisions. It avoids the culmination of "mamlachtiut" by keeping Player and Moledet from having to sit down and work out their ideological and political differences in a compromise. It creates a Haredi like bureaucracy that eventually makes the decisions for us, because "they" or it knows what's good for us. Sorry but I don't buy into that concept of a Jewish State.

[Atlantic Friend]

A Jewish doctor in this picturesque town said a few days ago that many of his friends intended to vote for Le Pen.

I guess "many" begins at four or five.



"Of course, because he is the best for the Jews of France," he said. A friend of his, an economics professor who took part in the conversation, conceded that although things had improved, most of the Jews of Aix-en-Provence would vote either for the right-wing candidate Nicolas Sarkozy or Le Pen. "I have a feeling that Le Pen will do very well in the coming elections," he said.

Alas (well, I for one won't lament), the good doctor's economist friend didn't have his crystal ball one, as the Front National did its worst score since it emerged in the mid-1980s. I can only suppose that not enough French Jews thought Fascism was good for them :(where do they get these crazy ideas, really?)


Year Candidate............ 1st turn 2nd turn
1988 Jean-Marie Le Pen 14.5%
1995 Jean-Marie Le Pen 15.0%
2002 Jean-Marie Le Pen 16.86% 17.79%
2007 Jean-Marie Le Pen 10.44%

[Kaplanr]

Now here's irony. Lest any of you think he's become the Israeli Mill or Locke; this identical proposal was first presented in the early 80s as part of a movement to draft and adopt a Constitution in Israel. It actually had the support of over 70 MKs as individuals, but the parties couldn't bring themselves to endorse and enact it. The only part that was, was the direct election of the PM which was an OK first step (since repealed) but didn't matter since he still needed to form a coalition. The cabinet positions were simply horse-trading fodder. I do like the provision here for professional cabinet appointments instead of politically friendly ones.


Jan 24, 2010 23:58 | Updated Jan 25, 2010 0:03
Deri calls to change electoral systemhttp://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1263147967526

Israel is suffering from a leadership vacuum and the crisis will not be solved until the political system is changed, former Shas leader Aryeh Deri said Sunday in a speech about "the challenges of leadership in the public sector and Israeli politics" at Jerusalem's Lander Institute. Deri has made increasingly clear in recent weeks that he intends to make a political comeback as soon as possible. He refused to discuss his political future with reporters at the event, but he hinted his comeback was imminent in a recent conversation with Kadima MK Shaul Mofaz.

While current Shas chairman Eli Yishai is noticeably absent on the itinerary for next month's Herzliya Conference, Deri will be a featured speaker at the week-long event that is addressed by the nation's top leadership. The electoral reforms Deri advocated in his speech on Sunday have all been repeatedly vetoed by Shas in Deri's absence. Deri called for electing the prime minister in direct elections, mandating that he automatically serve four years, and requiring him to appoint professionals to each cabinet position instead of Knesset members. He also advocated raising the electoral threshold and electing at least half the Knesset in direct, regional elections. "If Knesset members were chosen in regional elections, they would know that they have to be in constant contact with their constituents and help the average citizen," Deri said. "That way we would get better and more serious people in the Knesset."

Deri said the current system of government discourages long-term planning because prime ministers would prefer to invest in short-term plans they would get credit for finishing rather than long-term projects that might be cancelled by their successor. He said the best people don't go into politics because of the Israeli system's emphasis on parties and primaries and not on substance. "We are in a leadership crisis and there is a leadership vacuum, not just in Israel but in the entire world," Deri said. "Our system was right when the state was founded and we were ingathering the exiles who were afraid of disenfranchisement. But now the system prevents upgrading our leadership in this country. A prime minister has no chance of succeeding with the coalition system, knowing he can fall at any minute."

Deri also decried a lack of values among Israel's leadership. He said the proper example of a Jewish leader was Moses, who he said was humble, patient, tolerant, and knew how to show gratitude. Asked by reporters after his speech when he will return to the nation's leadership, Deri said, "When the time comes to decide, I will." A bill has been proposed in the Knesset that would prevent people like Deri who served jail sentences for corruption from getting elected to the parliament.

Shas officials responded to Deri's speech by accusing him of populism. They said he would speak differently if he were bound by the realities of representing a haredi party and its rabbis. "The perspective from inside the political system is different," a Shas official said. "If he was inside, he would find it correct to stick to Shas's principles."

[Yehuda]

Your first link leads to a known Nazi History revisionist (David Irving) site, so looses any credibility
but explains where you get your wacko ideas from.

The second link does not present any concrete evidence that many jewish people voted for Le Pen at all.

So your claims = Major Fail (as usual).:roll:
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=153419

\here you have the original haaretz article

[Yehuda]

And who makes the determination about who is/isn't? You, Jefferson, Hamilton, Peron, Ben-Gurion, Kahane? Is it just Jews in Israel or can the Druze qualify too? Is it limited to the Sephardim and Ashkenazim, or just one of the groups. If it's dome like it was in colonial Virginia (white, over 21, Protestant and a land-owner) do kibbutzniks get more say because they "own" more land?

I'll tell you what the problem with your thinking is, and it has little to do with upsetting my preference for representative democracy. Your choice simply allows the citizenry to avoid the unpleasant task of making choices/decisions. It avoids the culmination of "mamlachtiut" by keeping Player and Moledet from having to sit down and work out their ideological and political differences in a compromise. It creates a Haredi like bureaucracy that eventually makes the decisions for us, because "they" or it knows what's good for us. Sorry but I don't buy into that concept of a Jewish State.
if you dont buy the concept of jewish state,why live here?there are much better places to live,you could go back to usa,i could go back to argentina or europe,if we came here,its because we wanted to live in the jewish state
voting should be restricted to people with,or certain income,or a certain level of education taht permits them to discern
thecitizen can avoid it already,voting its not mandatory
you are in fact,having an elite that makes the desitions for you,or do you think that insignificant people like us,really makes the desition?do you think that you or me,have the same influence like,for example,shari arison?

[Yehuda]

Now here's irony. Lest any of you think he's become the Israeli Mill or Locke; this identical proposal was first presented in the early 80s as part of a movement to draft and adopt a Constitution in Israel. It actually had the support of over 70 MKs as individuals, but the parties couldn't bring themselves to endorse and enact it. The only part that was, was the direct election of the PM which was an OK first step (since repealed) but didn't matter since he still needed to form a coalition. The cabinet positions were simply horse-trading fodder. I do like the provision here for professional cabinet appointments instead of politically friendly ones.
in fact,deri proposals,are good,sad that a crook like him,who shouldn't be allowed to be in politics,proposes them

[Ordie]

voting should be restricted to people with,or certain income,or a certain level of education taht permits them to discern
thecitizen can avoid it already,voting its not mandatory you are in fact,having an elite that makes the desitions for you,or do you think that insignificant people like us,really makes the desition?do you think that you or me,have the same influence like,for example,shari arison?

Do you supoprt taxation without representation?

[Yehuda]

Do you supoprt taxation without representation?
first you should ask,if everyone who is represented,is in fact,taxed,and the answer is no

arabs shouldn't have,except for the ones that have served in the army,have the right to own israeli citizenship,they have proven,constantly,that they are disloyal and a danger to the country

and i do support it

[Ordie]

first you should ask,if everyone who is represented,is in fact,taxed,and the answer is no

arabs shouldn't have,except for the ones that have served in the army,have the right to own israeli citizenship,they have proven,constantly,that they are disloyal and a danger to the country

and i do support it

That policy didn't work in South Africa.

[Yehuda]

That policy didn't work in South Africa.
very different situation,those poor black people in south africa,where only a threat to appartheid,not to the very life of the white people in south africa

[Ordie]

very different situation,those poor black people in south africa,where only a threat to appartheid,not to the very life of the white people in south africa

So you don't believe in "one person, one vote" regardless of race, class, income, education, religion, ethnicity, language or political affiliation?

[Yehuda]

So you don't believe in "one person, one vote" regardless of race, class, income, education, religion, ethnicity, language or political affiliation?
i don't belive in voting,period
but if you have to vote,has to be a qualified voting,not everyone is qualified to make that sort of desitions *has nothing to do with race,religion,ethnicity,etc)

[Kaplanr]

first you should ask,if everyone who is represented,is in fact,taxed,and the answer is no arabs shouldn't have,except for the ones that have served in the army,have the right to own israeli citizenship,they have proven,constantly,that they are disloyal and a danger to the country and i do support it

So who determines who's qualified? If you voted for Ratz and Meretz 4 times, does that disqualify you? BTW, your comment above is historically false and inaccurate.

[Yehuda]

So who determines who's qualified? If you voted for Ratz and Meretz 4 times, does that disqualify you? BTW, your comment above is historically false and inaccurate.
yes?when was the last tikme,you saw an arab mass demonstration in favour of israel?how many arabs,enlist in the army,or in sherut leumi?how many of them consider themselves israeli?

who determines?the state,should do that,of course

[Eye]

So who determines who's qualified?
I think that some limitations like only people who are owners of some property or conduct business for longer than 5 years etc. could make outcomes of voting more reasonable.

[Yehuda]

I think that some limitations like only people who are owners of some property or conduct business for longer than 5 years etc. could make outcomes of voting more reasonable.
I preffer to do it,by educatinial qualifications,an ignorant with money,is still an ignorant
of course,also,should be based on loyalty to the state

[seraosha]

i don't belive in voting,period
but if you have to vote,has to be a qualified voting,not everyone is qualified to make that sort of desitions *has nothing to do with race,religion,ethnicity,etc)

You don't believe in voting? Why wouldn't a citizen want the vote in a Democratic Republic?

[OrangeWolf]

very different situation,those poor black people in south africa,where only a threat to appartheid,not to the very life of the white people in south africa

Well, whites were victims of terrorism in South Africa.

[Kaplanr]

yes?when was the last tikme,you saw an arab mass demonstration in favour of israel?how many arabs,enlist in the army,or in sherut leumi?how many of them consider themselves israeli?
who determines?the state,should do that,of course

Approximately 400-500 Arabs are currently doing or recently completed National Service (Sherut Leumi). Another 100 or so are in the IDF in addition to 200-250 Bedouin. I didn't say they're hovevei tzion (lovers or Zion), but that's a jump to automatically casting the entire population as disloyal and dangerous. I used to go to Abu Ghosh and Baka al Gharbiya pretty frequently - never felt endangered. What I felt in places like Majd el Krum and Umm el-Fahm was different (this is before the 2nd Intifada) but not all of the disaffection is nationalist in origin. Much of it is economic.

[Yehuda]

Approximately 400-500 Arabs are currently doing or recently completed National Service (Sherut Leumi). Another 100 or so are in the IDF in addition to 200-250 Bedouin. I didn't say they're hovevei tzion (lovers or Zion), but that's a jump to automatically casting the entire population as disloyal and dangerous. I used to go to Abu Ghosh and Baka al Gharbiya pretty frequently - never felt endangered. What I felt in places like Majd el Krum and Umm el-Fahm was different (this is before the 2nd Intifada) but not all of the disaffection is nationalist in origin. Much of it is economic.
500 out from a population of more than a 1.000.000 its nothing (im not refering here to druze,bedouin or circassians)
you never felt endangered,because they live from your money,they will be stupid to do something to you
economic/where?did you see the cars they drive??they are much less poor than what you think,and ethiopians in israel are very poor,when was the last time than an ethiopian made violent riots?

[Yehuda]

You don't believe in voting? Why wouldn't a citizen want the vote in a Democratic Republic?
first of all,here,like in your country,voting is not mandatory
second,who told you that i believed in a democratic republic?i accept it,because i have no other choice,that doesn't meant that i like it

[Yehuda]

Well, whites were victims of terrorism in South Africa.
isolated cases
the anc of mandela,didnt wanted to kill all the whites or throw them into the sea

[seraosha]

first of all,here,like in your country,voting is not mandatory
second,who told you that i believed in a democratic republic?i accept it,because i have no other choice,that doesn't meant that i like it

While it's a citizens choice to exercise their vote (or not), I can't imagine a citizen in a Democratic Republic not wanting a vote.
And what government would you choose over a Democratic Republic?

[Yehuda]

While it's a citizens choice to exercise their vote (or not), I can't imagine a citizen in a Democratic Republic not wanting a vote.
And what government would you choose over a Democratic Republic?
no,you did not understood me,i meant,that i dont believe in citizen voting,not me persoanlly voting,i have voted in every election since i came to israel,2003,2006,and the last one

uu,men,answered here,several pages before
look for post 37
in general,or a strong hand government,or a limited democracy.

[seraosha]

no,you did not understood me,i meant,that i dont believe in citizen voting,not me persoanlly voting,i have voted in every election since i came to israel,2003,2006,and the last one

uu,men,answered here,several pages before
look for post 37
in general,or a strong hand government,or a limited democracy.

Oh...so you believe your vote is more important than other peoples vote, and that you want a government where your vote doesn't count...either.

Awesome.:roll:

[Yehuda]

no,you did not understood me,i meant,that i dont believe in citizen voting,not me persoanlly voting,i have voted in every election since i came to israel,2003,2006,and the last one

uu,men,answered here,several pages before
look for post 37
in general,or a strong hand government,or a limited democracy.
wrong,i ,in an ideal vote,would preffer a government without votes,but if we have to have votes,then only educated ,well prepared people voting,not some ignorant

[Ordie]

wrong,i ,in an ideal vote,would preffer a government without votes,but if we have to have votes,then only pelotudos ,well prepared tarado entrenado voting,not some ignorant

Fixed it for you.

Jacobo Timerman is probably rolling in his grave to hear your despotic views.

[Yehuda]

Fixed it for you.

Jacobo Timerman is probably rolling in his grave to hear your despotic views.
disagree
a well educated person,is less posible to fall into propaganda or be duped than an ignorant

timmerman,can roll ovr in his grave,i don't care,he was just a pro arab leftie

[Rayber]

Hey Yehuda , thanks alot for the many laughs :D

[Eye]

disagree

timmerman,can roll ovr in his grave,i don't care,he was just a pro arab leftie
I don't know him, but I guess he was educated.

[Yehuda]

I don't know him, but I guess he was educated.
my father is more educated,and he didn't had to fall in those categories

[Ordie]

my father is more educated,and he didn't had to fall in those categories

Define 'educated'.

[Connaught Ranger]

disagree
a well educated person,is less posible to fall into propaganda or be duped than an ignorant

timmerman,can roll ovr in his grave,i don't care,he was just a pro arab leftie

Disagree all you want, the educated and intelligent fell for Hitlers lies and propaganda and see where it lead them,

with your mentality and views, you would probably be the first to call for Arabs to be sent to "re-education Camps"

And by the way the links you gave offer no proof whatsover to the number of Jews who voted for Le Pen, which is not surprising as:-

A: Voting in France, a sin many countries is done in private, as required by law, so there is no way to say which religious persuasion voted for who.

B, there is no register of Jews or anybody else, publicly available in France to back up your ludicrous claims,

so sorry to say, but the: "well I heard that Mr. So and So1 say to Mr. So and So2, that Mr So and So3 voted for Mr, Le Penn."

is not valid proof either so again your comments = FAIL!

Never mind keep on trying with your trolling it might improve with age and attempts,

or better yet it might just get you bounced off this forum.

Connaught Ranger.

[Yehuda]

Define 'educated'.
2 phd's,former professor, in the university of buenos aires

[Yehuda]

Disagree all you want, the educated and intelligent fell for Hitlers lies and propaganda and see where it lead them,

with your mentality and views, you would probably be the first to call for Arabs to be sent to "re-education Camps"

And by the way the links you gave offer no proof whatsover to the number of Jews who voted for Le Pen, which is not surprising as:-

A: Voting in France, a sin many countries is done in private, as required by law, so there is no way to say which religious persuasion voted for who.

B, there is no register of Jews or anybody else, publicly available in France to back up your ludicrous claims,

so sorry to say, but the: "well I heard that Mr. So and So1 say to Mr. So and So2, that Mr So and So3 voted for Mr, Le Penn."

is not valid proof either so again your comments = FAIL!

Never mind keep on trying with your trolling it might improve with age and attempts,

or better yet it might just get you bounced off this forum.

Connaught Ranger.
thinking different than the majority,does not make me a troll,funny,the big democracy supporters are the one who try to silence different opinions

everyone fell for hitler,so what?
rulers like hitler,where a trend back in the 1930's,almost all of european countries had authoritarian rightist regimes,more or less,because of the anarchy of the 1920's

[seraosha]

thinking different than the majority,does not make me a troll,funny,the big democracy supporters are the one who try to silence different opinions

Not at all. I just find it ironic that someone in this day and age would willingly, nay enthusiasticly surrender their vote in favor of a despot taking control and running the government.

An argument can be made at how effective our Democratic Republic is in regards to counting votes, and in the past the franchise can be shown to have been exclusive to particular participants...but as you have shown so clearly, intelligence and education are not always equatable to wisdom.

But by all means, please continue...I wish this could be split from the OP, as we are far and away OT.

[Kaplanr]

thinking different than the majority,does not make me a troll,funny,the big democracy supporters are the one who try to silence different opinions
everyone fell for hitler,so what?
rulers like hitler,where a trend back in the 1930's,almost all of european countries had authoritarian rightist regimes,more or less,because of the anarchy of the 1920's

What Yehuda states here was also true to a degree within the Yishuv (Jewish population of Eretz Israel - Mandatory Palestine.) One of the figureheads of the Revisionist Movement, Abba Ahimeir, along with Jabotinski himself were admirers of the early Italian Facists for the "they made the trains run on time" reasons. They were by no means adherents to Anglo-American concepts of representative democracy. As Mussolini later aligned with Hitler, they obviously distanced themselves from the directions the Facist movement was taking. One of the early offshoots of the Zionist movement that Ahimeir helped found was the Brit HaBiryonim, who identified the Mandatory authority as the enemy before the Revisionists did. They were more Etzel than the Etzel (Irgun).

Can't really say that history in on your side Yehuda, as even Herut under Begin opted for full participatory democracy. You've never answered the question, who's getting these rights and who's assigning them or determining who gets them? Who are to be the new overseers?

[Ordie]

2 phd's,former professor, in the university of buenos aires

Some of the stupidest people I know have Phd.
Some of the wisest people I know didn't finish elementary school.

[Yehuda]

What Yehuda states here was also true to a degree within the Yishuv (Jewish population of Eretz Israel - Mandatory Palestine.) One of the figureheads of the Revisionist Movement, Abba Ahimeir, along with Jabotinski himself were admirers of the early Italian Facists for the "they made the trains run on time" reasons. They were by no means adherents to Anglo-American concepts of representative democracy. As Mussolini later aligned with Hitler, they obviously distanced themselves from the directions the Facist movement was taking. One of the early offshoots of the Zionist movement that Ahimeir helped found was the Brit HaBiryonim, who identified the Mandatory authority as the enemy before the Revisionists did. They were more Etzel than the Etzel (Irgun).

Can't really say that history in on your side Yehuda, as even Herut under Begin opted for full participatory democracy. You've never answered the question, who's getting these rights and who's assigning them or determining who gets them? Who are to be the new overseers?
yes,i answered you
only well educated people,who are loyal to the state

regarding your first part of the post,3 out of 18 ,embers of the first facsit council in Italy where jews

[Yehuda]

Some of the stupidest people I know have Phd.
Some of the wisest people I know didn't finish elementary school.
maybe,but usually is not the case
its called qualified vote

[GB_FXST]

What Yehuda states here was also true to a degree within the Yishuv (Jewish population of Eretz Israel - Mandatory Palestine.) One of the figureheads of the Revisionist Movement, Abba Ahimeir, along with Jabotinski himself were admirers of the early Italian Facists for the "they made the trains run on time" reasons. They were by no means adherents to Anglo-American concepts of representative democracy. As Mussolini later aligned with Hitler, they obviously distanced themselves from the directions the Facist movement was taking. One of the early offshoots of the Zionist movement that Ahimeir helped found was the Brit HaBiryonim, who identified the Mandatory authority as the enemy before the Revisionists did. They were more Etzel than the Etzel (Irgun).

Can't really say that history in on your side Yehuda, as even Herut under Begin opted for full participatory democracy. You've never answered the question, who's getting these rights and who's assigning them or determining who gets them? Who are to be the new overseers?

yes,i answered you
only well educated people,who are loyal to the state

regarding your first part of the post,3 out of 18 ,embers of the first facsit council in Italy where jews

The pending answer to Kaplanr's second question is critical to this discussion. Any discussion of who assigns rights and establishes standards will quickly demonstrate that you can have either a democractic system or a totalitarian system, but not both.

That there have been Jewish fascists and communists is maybe interesting (in a depressing sort of way), but not really relevant to the demerits of both systems.

It does occur to me that your arguments are a perfect foil for illustrating the virtues of the democratic system.

A recent book on some Revisionist figures from the 1930's: Free Jerusalem by Zev Golan.

[Kaplanr]

yes,i answered you
only well educated people,who are loyal to the state. . .

OK, I can go with that; Yossi Sarid, Ran Cohen, Shulamit Aloni, Dedi Zucker, Dan Meridor, Ehud Barak, Benny Begin and Moshe Arens to name a few. I'm afraid though it would have left out David Levy, Raful (z"l), and all of Shas and Aguda (no problem there.)

[Atlantic Friend]

Loyalty to the state a cardinal virtue, fanatized warriors, only a select few/natural aristocracy may have any say in public affairs, people better do happily what they're told by the state...

Honestly, Yehuda, I really cannot fathom how you can support such a Fascist system.

[seraosha]

Loyalty to the state a cardinal virtue, fanatized warriors, only a select few/natural aristocracy may have any say in public affairs, people better do happily what they're told by the state...

Honestly, Yehuda, I really cannot fathom how you can support such a Fascist system.

Easily...if you think you are part of the "justified ruling elite".
But as we've seen over and over, those that help prop up the Totalitarian State are frequently made into scapegoats to keep the illusion going.

I'll take a Democratic Democracy over an Oligarchy any day...they tend to slide into a theocracy, or worse, neo-feudalism.

[Atlantic Friend]

Easily...if you think you are part of the "justified ruling elite".
But as we've seen over and over, those that help prop up the Totalitarian State are frequently made into scapegoats to keep the illusion going.

I'll take a Democratic Democracy over an Oligarchy any day...they tend to slide into a theocracy, or worse, neo-feudalism.

Hell yeah. Democracy might at regular intervals give mediocre leaders a chance to exert responsibilities, but at least they also give the citizens the power to oust them if these leaders don't bulk up to the required standards. Not to mention the fact "loyalty to the state" rapidly trumps up any other criterion. I'm pretty sure a tick is "loyal" to the closest warm body it can feed upon, that doesn't qualify it to lead that body anywhere.

[Connaught Ranger]

thinking different than the majority,does not make me a troll,funny,the big democracy supporters are the one who try to silence different opinions

everyone fell for hitler,so what?
rulers like hitler,where a trend back in the 1930's,almost all of european countries had authoritarian rightist regimes,more or less,because of the anarchy of the 1920's

You, made a claim and I quote it here:


"a well educated person,is less posible to fall into propaganda or be duped than an ignorant" meaning essentially that the educated were less likely to be fooled, and now you claim they are the same as everyone else, please make up your mind old bean, it cant be both ways following YOUR original line of definition can it?:roll:

Please feel free to point out where all this rampent anarchy was taking place in Europe, I think you will find it mostly in the Balkans, if at all.

"rulers like Hitler" were actually scarce enough on the continent of Europe, Mussolini of Italy being among the very first, if there were more men thinking like him (Hitler) in control (a trend as you claim)

there would have been no need for conflict as they would have been very much in agreement along the lines of Politics, Religion, & Economics.

Connaught Ranger.